Ammo in grip, why not anymore?

[supercontra]

A couple of decades ago (60's 70's) many types of SMG's and even rifles were designed with the ammo clip inside the pistol grip. Uzi, MAC 10 and several others including the Swedish MKS assault rifle. Nowadays as far as I know this is not done anymore. Does anyone know the reason for this?

[dobrodan]

MP7 and MP9?

Bullpups give an overall shorter package in the case of assaultrifles, also, in assaultrifles, it would be difficult to wrap your thumb behind the pistolgrip to assure a firm grip.

[Deftoner]

larger calibres?

[Andrew Chalmers]

A couple of decades ago (60's 70's) many types of SMG's and even rifles were designed with the ammo clip inside the pistol grip. Uzi, MAC 10 and several others including the Swedish MKS assault rifle. Nowadays as far as I know this is not done anymore. Does anyone know the reason for this?

It doesn't offer particularly good balance to put the ammunition in the grip if the firearm is 40 inches in length... and also lengthens the height of the firearm. The advantage of having the magazine in the grip is that it allows the gun designer to use a longer length barrel without having to increase the firearm's total length as much - but bullpup designs allow you to increase the barrel length even more while also obtaining better balance (in my experience anyway)... so why create a possibly unwieldy grip for no comparable advantage?

[lt tahoe]

What about the Russian Kashtan and SR-2? Or the South African BXP? Or the Polish PM-84? And of course the MP7 and MP9 as mentioned? Maybe the more prominent weapons don't use that system, but that doesn't mean it isn't used.

Besides, the UZI has gained such notoriety that it's much more famous than just about any subgun. Not necessarily for the position of the magazine.

[Biglug]

There's just not the same interest in smaller calibers that fit into a grip magwell anymore for serious use. Fun guns yes, but not in most modern agencies and units.

9mm, 40S&W and .45 are common calibers useful for that, but they've taken a back seat to 5.56 for the purpose of a close quarter SMG and 5.56 doesn't fit the same.

It's not really a big advantage compared to just a more forward magwell that can be used as a grip also and than the pistol grip used for battery storage since most are using optics these's days that need batteries.

I think in the future for many units and agencies you'll just see more of these,
http://world.guns.ru/assault/hk416-1.jpg

and less of these,
http://world.guns.ru/smg/hk_mp5n.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/smg/hk_mp7_b.jpg

[Laconian]

I just don't think there is a need for them as much, as Biglug said, many LEA (US) are moving away from the SMG, anyway. As an aside, I had to test fire a supressed MAC-10 and MP5SD today. The MP was a much better shooter, balanced, grip, etc. than the MAC, which is fun but not as functional as the HK. I also admit that I have a lot more hours on the MP than I do on the MAC.

[Durandal]

A couple of decades ago (60's 70's) many types of SMG's and even rifles were designed with the ammo clip inside the pistol grip. Uzi, MAC 10 and several others including the Swedish MKS assault rifle. Nowadays as far as I know this is not done anymore. Does anyone know the reason for this?

A) Not all subguns from the 60s and 70s had mags in the grips.

B) THere were a number (probably more when you look at it) subgun in the 80s , 90s, and 00, designed with the mag in the grip.

I guess what I am saying is that your observation is in error....wrong.

[Durandal]

Besides, the UZI has gained such notoriety that it's much more famous than just about any subgun. Not necessarily for the position of the magazine.

Other than the H&K MP5, Thompson M1928, M3 Grease Gun, the PPSH 41, Carl Gustav M45, MP40, Sten, Mac 10/11, Sterling L2A3, SA Vz 61, Beretta M12, or even the MAT 49.

While I would put the UZI in there, I would also argue that it is equal to all of these in "notoriety" but falls short of the MP5 and the Tommy Gun as far as general knowledge and the public is concerned...at least in the West.

[0497]

I don't think there's an actual move away from grip-mags, it just seems like it due to HK's MP5 and UMP range. It's difficult to judge since there's really only one brand of SMG and it's HK. Their PDW (MP7) on the other hand does use grip-mags.

[Durandal]

I don't think there's an actual move away from grip-mags, it just seems like it due to HK's MP5 and UMP range. It's difficult to judge since there's really only one brand of SMG and it's HK. Their PDW (MP7) on the other hand does use grip-mags.

Hate to break it to you, but there are more than one brand of SMGs on the market.

Even if you did not include ALL the American and European (west and east)companies, the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, half a dozen African and South American.

Off the top of my head there are at least 2 dozen issued sub guns with different manufacturers used by LEO and Military out there.