Bush commutes Libby jail sentence

[tyovan]

Live on the news now gentlemen..

Absolutely disgusting

[tyovan]

conviction will stay, but he wont be going to jail

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570081/





Where is the justice in America???

[2Sheds_Jackson]

WASHINGTON - President Bush Monday spared former vice presidential aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby from going to prison for 2 1/2 years for obstructing the CIA leak investigation, a White House official said.
The official said Bush "has commuted the prison sentence ... leaving intact the probation and fines handed down by the court."
"That means he is not going to jail," the official said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570081/


Wow. Honestly, I'm surprised. Not really willing to comment further on this until more details come out...

[budgie]

No big deal. This has been done before. Didn't Clinton pardon some crooks on his way out? And yeah sorry Righties for reminding you - your boy IS on the way out...

[tyovan]

I'm a lefty and this pisses me off

[2Sheds_Jackson]

No big deal. This has been done before. Didn't Clinton pardon some crooks on his way out? And yeah sorry Righties for reminding you - your boy IS on the way out...

Gosh, is that what all that "election" stuff is all about? I thought it had something to do with Viagra.

And...you're thinking about a presidential pardon, which this isn't. Clinton pardoned a number of convicted criminals on his way out, and let them walk away scott free (Marc Rich et al).



Bush left intact a $250,000 fine and two years probation for Libby, according to a senior White House official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the decision had not been announced.
Bush's move came hours after a federal appeals panel ruled Libby could not delay his prison term in the CIA leak case.

[shocker1]

I'm a lefty and this pisses me off
Then this is working out well. Hell give him back pay if it will bring out a vein in your forehead. That'll be great.

[Gman3ID]

Wrong guy to go after IMO in the first place.



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush has commuted the prison term of former White House aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who faced 30 months in prison after his March conviction on federal charges of perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to investigators.
Earlier Monday, a federal appeals court unanimously ruled that the former White House aide could not delay his 2 ½-year prison term. Libby was convicted in March of lying and obstructing the investigation into the 2003 leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity.
Libby was only weeks ago from surrendering to a prison.
Bush, who was under great pressure by Libby allies to pardon the former chief of staff, said that by commuting Libby's sentence he is still leaving "harsh" punishment in place.
Libby was the highest-ranking White House official ordered to prison since the Iran-Contra affair. His lawyers said that they had a good chance of overturning the conviction on appeal.E-mail to a friend (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/02/libby.sentence/index.html#)http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/util/email.gif

[tyovan]

This isnt about partisanship. This is about justice. Giving the Presidents friends 'get out of jail free' cards is wrong whether the President is Democrat or Republican.


Justice, gentlemen, justice. Justice must rise above politics.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

This isnt about partisanship. This is about justice. Giving the Presidents friends 'get out of jail free' cards is wrong whether the President is Democrat or Republican.


Justice, gentlemen, justice. Justice must rise above politics.

The jury verdict hasn't been overturned, and given that the sentence was inordinately harsh, this isn't a big surprise.
Bill Kristol actually had actually suggested this option, on Fox.

I think the judge was appointed by a Republican, probably trying to prove he wasn't playing favorites.

[Mu-Meson]

I think Bush did the right thing here (shock! horror!).
Libby's sentence was too harsh. The whole thing was clearly a witchhunt, and when it turned out that it wasn't a neo-con who leaked Plume, the lawyers went digging.
He's not as pure as the driven snow, however, so charting a sort of middle course here seems fair. Of course, it will only piss off everyone on either side, but thats gonna happen no matter what.

[halda]

Meh, who cares? Presidential privilege for a lame-duck POTUS. I'm waiting for Bush to break out the cocaine and hookers...

But watch the Dems fly right toward this like moths to flame to the detriment of whatever message they're trying to peddle this election. They'll get stuck on typical anti-Bush rhetoric when they should be more focused on real opponents -- Thompson, Romney, Giuliani, etc.

[Desk Jockey]

If Putin and Bush hold a press conference up in Maine old Vlad will be laughing that all the questions will be about an aide who is not going to the slammer, a story which will blow over and no questions about support for Iran or nukes pointed at Europe will be asked.

[ElHombre]

Paris Hilton will have done more jail time than Libby. :roll: Oh, to be politically well-connected. Incidentally, the rest of you (non-Bush-admin) criminals praying for a pardon from Bush shouldn't get your hopes up (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a9Ky8sNLw1fw&refer=us).


Bush has granted fewer pardons -- 113 -- than any president in the past 100 years, while denying more than 1,000 requests, said Margaret Colgate Love, the Justice Department's pardon attorney from 1990 to 1997.

In addition, Bush has denied more than 4,000 commutation requests, and hundreds of requests for pardons and commutations are still pending, Love said.

This tells us two things: Cheney is still in charge (and wants Libby to keep his mouth shut), and we can tell all those 'law and order' conservatives who still whine about Clinton to shove it. :-D

[Desk Jockey]

Paris Hilton will have done more jail time than Libby. :roll: Oh, to be politically well-connected. Incidentally, the rest of you (non-Bush-admin) criminals praying for a pardon from Bush shouldn't get your hopes up (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a9Ky8sNLw1fw&refer=us).



This tells us two things: Cheney is still in charge (and wants Libby to keep his mouth shut), and we can tell all those 'law and order' conservatives who still whine about Clinton to shove it. :-D

If Cheney was in charge it would have been a pardon not a commuted sentence.

[ElHombre]

If Cheney was in charge it would have been a pardon not a commuted sentence.

Likely, this commutation was the most they figured they could get away with. We all know Libby will just raise the money from the wingnut welfare rolls to pay the fine.

Hmmm... I wonder of Libby can still be disbarred from being a lawyer? He's still guilty, after all.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

...shouldn't get your hopes up (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a9Ky8sNLw1fw&refer=us)

This kind of Anti-Bush mania is absolutely amazing...In a spectacular rhetorical fiasco, you cite information that demonstrates his extreme reluctance to interfere with the judiciary in attempt to to discredit him.

Pure Genius!



and we can tell all those 'law and order' conservatives who still whine about Clinton to shove it. :-DWhatever :roll: ... the Jury verdict wasn't overturned.

The sentence was over-the-top:

When I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby was sentenced Tuesday to a surprisingly long term of 30 months in prison for perjury and obstruction of justice, he became a victim of one of the most troubling aspects of federal sentencing laws — allowing harsher sentences for a crime that was never actually proven. Link (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1628373,00.html)

[Desk Jockey]

Likely, this commutation was the most they figured they could get away with. We all know Libby will just raise the money from the wingnut welfare rolls to pay the fine.

Hmmm... I wonder of Libby can still be disbarred from being a lawyer? He's still guilty, after all.

He will be disbarred, he will be a convicted felon, and still has to pay $250,000.00 in fines.

Book deal will take care of the above, he will land at some conservative think tank and life will be fine.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

This tells us two things: Cheney is still in charge (and wants Libby to keep his mouth shut), and we can tell all those 'law and order' conservatives who still whine about Clinton to shove it.

This may tell you all sorts of things, but it doesn't tell me that. Heck, I'm convinced that inanimate objects tell you bad things about Bush & co. Find me another two year jail sentence for perjury, and we can talk about justice. I do think Libby should be disbarred though - I don't know how they could possibly allow an officer of the court who'd been convicted of lying to it...

[JJC]

I'm losing respect for president Bush. From the continuing debacle in handling of Iraq war, to supporting amnesty bill and stalling border security, while at the same time trying to convince the citizens that he still has concern for the nation's safety from the terrorists and nucealer weapons, while spitting at us with his actions.

I'm not surprised nor am I angry that Libby has been saved by Bush, (it is normal in Amercian politics to pardon your "boys" in trouble.) What I'm angry about is that Bush refuses to pardon Special Agents Ramos and Compean who are serving 12 years for defending themselves against an illegal drug smuggler. The ultimate test for Bush is whether he pardons these agents.
Justice for Ramos and Compean!

[ElHombre]

Find me another two year jail sentence for perjury, and we can talk about justice.

And here you go. From the Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/21/AR2007062102088.html?hpid=moreheadlines) a few days ago.


Victor Rita, convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, asked for a lighter sentence based in part on his past military service. But the judge gave him 33 months, as suggested by the guidelines. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, based in Richmond, upheld the sentence, saying that penalties within the guidelines are "presumptively reasonable."

Now back to talking about justice... :lol:

[DB-ERAUPilot]

this jerkoff Libby gets a pass by bush pretty much getting away scott free while two U.S. Border Patrol Agents Compean and Ramos who actually deserve to be free continue to rott away in jail for 11 and 12 yrs for trying to do their jobs, just another reason to count down the days until this inept monkey is out of office :roll:

[Durandal]

This kind of Anti-Bush mania is absolutely amazing...

Anti-Bush nothing. Its called respecting rule of law and ƒucking order. Clinton should have had his ass handed to him and so should have Mr. Libby.


Whatever :roll: ... the Jury verdict wasn't overturned.

You do the crime and you pay the crime.


The sentence was over-the-top:

Hmmm...he was being made an example of. He lied while under oath. You know, lying, one of the 10 Commandments? The fact that Bush can waste time intervening on this guys behalf speaks volume on just how low our government has sunk.

Anyone can lie now and get a slap on the wrist. 250K will be ponied up by his buddies if cannot manage to come up with it. Small potatoes.

He did not even wait a couple months for Scooter to even get a taste of justice.

Different party same ƒucking "new royalty".

Might be time for another Tea Party.

[Bombtrack]

And here you go. From the Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/21/AR2007062102088.html?hpid=moreheadlines) a few days ago.



Now back to talking about justice... :lol:

Zing!
.................

[AZRON]

I just love it.

Scooter Libby outed no one but get's convicted for lying when the prosecuting attorney already knew **** Armitage leaked Plame's name.
No one yet has clarified whether or not she was illegally outed , past the 5 year silence limit.

In the meantime Sandy Berger who on a couple of occasions stole classified documents from the National Archives wasn't even given a jail term to pardon.

[SPROCKET]

Remember kids, only the little people commit crimes. Rich, connected, white people have, "errors in judgement". One, you go to federal pounding in the ass prison, the other you say you're very sorry and it's all unfair, then you go back about your rich white guy business.

[AZRON]

Remember kids, only the little people commit crimes. Rich, connected, white people have, "errors in judgement". One, you go to federal pounding in the ass prison, the other you say you're very sorry and it's all unfair, then you go back about your rich white guy business.

Especially if your name is Mark Rich and you contribute a few million to Clinton's new library and you get pardoned the last hour of Clinton's presidency.

[duhblow7]

No big deal. This has been done before. Didn't Clinton pardon some crooks on his way out? And yeah sorry Righties for reminding you - your boy IS on the way out...

The difference is Clinton was impeached for obstruction of justice, while Libby was the first person in US history to have their sentence commuted when convicted of obstruction of justice.

[GromGrad]

I guess we are all equal under the law, some people are just more equal. Same **** in every country and it sucks.

[budgie]

The difference is Clinton was impeached for obstruction of justice, while Libby was the first person in US history to have their sentence commuted when convicted of obstruction of justice.

I think it's at least telling that Bush didn't overturn the conviction itself. That way he gets to keep his scapegoat without forcing the guy to do hard time. And why should Libby do time when everyone knows that Shotgun Cheney and Baby Bush are the ones behind it anyway...

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Anti-Bush nothing. Its called respecting rule of law and ƒucking order. Please, do tell what law the President is failing to respect and what order is being disrupted?



Clinton should have had his ass handed to him and so should have Mr. Libby.
Pointless outrage duly noted.



Hmmm...he was being made an example of.
What a pitiful attempt to defend an utter lack of equity in sentencing.


He lied while under oath.
It's amazing! You must have the ability to read minds; He said he didn't remember giving false statement, the jury disagreed.


You know, lying, one of the 10 Commandments?
You must be pretty righteous individual if you have enough moral authority to apply one of the ten commandments to someone else.



The fact that Bush can waste time intervening on this guys behalf speaks volume on just how low our government has sunk.

Apparently you didn't you even bother to read ElH's post. Bush has granted fewer pardons than any president in the past 100 years, and denied more than 4,000 commutation requests.



Anyone can lie now and get a slap on the wrist. 250K will be ponied up by his buddies if cannot manage to come up with it. Small potatoes.He still stands convicted of a crime.

What was this trial all about again? Something to do with a name being leaked, maybe?


He did not even wait a couple months for Scooter to even get a taste of justice.

Some might say justice would be to have select members of the press print a retraction for slandering Cheney and pay a fine, but, hey, nobody likes the VP.

[muck]

This isnt about partisanship. This is about justice. Giving the Presidents friends 'get out of jail free' cards is wrong whether the President is Democrat or Republican.


Justice, gentlemen, justice. Justice must rise above politics.

I almost wanted to second that statement, especially the part saying it's regardless who granted the parole; only I realized when reading the article, that Bush not at all queried the sentence and only reduced the degree of penalty...It's idle to jump to conclusions now.

However, here would nobody get a presidential parole when facing only 30 months for a committed crime...and I think that's good. A president should only pardon a person if he feels someone has paid enough for what he has done or if he fears an enormous miscarriage...Especially here where the president doesn't interfere in political day-to-day business and is therefore more independent and less influenced or prejudiced regarding criminal cases.

Well, of course both reasons for parole I listed can be found in Bush's explanation . Beyond doubt, the suspicion arises that it is only a lame excuse for an interior favour addressed to a political comrade in arms.

If he had totally pardoned Libby, indeed it would be perversion of justice to grant him mercy.

[Ordie]

HMMM

Rewarding for bad behavior.

Where is the outcry?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

And here you go. From the Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/21/AR2007062102088.html?hpid=moreheadlines) a few days ago.

Thanks - well that's one - apparently involving 500+ grams of cocaine and a conviction. I've been looking for cases to compare to - not easy, since there was no other crime involved here.

All I've been able to find on Wiki is;

>Lil Kim's perjury and conspiracy conviction during a shooting case - she got 12 months
>Dr. Cecil Jacobson - who impregnated his patients without telling them - who was convicted of on 53 counts of mail fraud, wire fraud and perjury- and got 5 years.
>Alger Hiss - who they tried to get on espionage but the statute of limitations had run out - was convicted of two counts of perjury and got 5 years.

In a very strange coincidence...as I was typing this up...I was watching Court-TV about a guy named Mel Ignato - who killed a woman - and they knew for sure he did it - but they couldn't convict due to double jeopardy - so they went after him on perjury (i.e. lying about it during the previous trial) - and the feds only got him for 8 years. And that's for lying about a murder that he confessed to.

So my opinion remains unchanged regarding the length of the sentence - I still think it was unreasonable.

As to Bush commuting his sentence - I don't particularly like it - but it is completely legal - and pretty much par for the course. The system is what the system is. Fitzgerald was allowed to go on an expensive fishing expedition - all he caught was a little minnow who he got to put away - but then the Pres has the authority to cancel it all. Nuts. And I'm sure we'll see worse (and hopefully better to) when Bush heads for the exit.

[n4292936]

I think this is one of the most disgusting examples of piss poor leadership I've ever seen. The intelligence community in many corners is disgusted, and the president has demonstrated a level of hypocrisy I've not seen in a decade.

Concerning the "harshness" of Scotter's sentence, it was hardly harsh. Compromising field agents can have a very direct impact on their safety, and there are so many examples to cite where such compromises have led both directly and indirectly to deaths. As it is, naming such agents is a huge breach of both national and personel security and I, for one, think a high price should be paid by those who commit such acts. What's more, after all the diatribes and rhetoric about supporting the troops, the president has the wherewithall to reduce the sentence of someone who directly undermined the safety of government personel endeavoring to keep the allies safe, just as troops do, for what really appears to be very ingenuine reasons. I think it is absolutely appalling!!!

Imagine he gave insurgents tomorrow's patrol route of your section and you'll get a sense of what the industry feels in this matter. There's no excuse for giving this sort of information out, or protecting those who did.

[bucketman]

Check Mate and Case Closed scum bag he is
I think this is one of the most disgusting examples of piss poor leadership I've ever seen. The intelligence community in many corners is disgusted, and the president has demonstrated a level of hypocrisy I've not seen in a decade.

Concerning the "harshness" of Scotter's sentence, it was hardly harsh. Compromising field agents can have a very direct impact on their safety, and there are so many examples to cite where such compromises have led both directly and indirectly to deaths. As it is, naming such agents is a huge breach of both national and personel security and I, for one, think a high price should be paid by those who commit such acts. What's more, after all the diatribes and rhetoric about supporting the troops, the president has the wherewithall to reduce the sentence of someone who directly undermined the safety of government personel endeavoring to keep the allies safe, just as troops do, for what really appears to be very ingenuine reasons. I think it is absolutely appalling!!!

Imagine he gave insurgents tomorrow's patrol route of your section and you'll get a sense of what the industry feels in this matter. There's no excuse for giving this sort of information our, or protecting those who did.

[Kilgor]

Is Bush actually trying to get the lowest approval rating in US history ?

[DB-ERAUPilot]

Is Bush actually trying to get the lowest approval rating in US history ?

LOL, I think we're all starting to wonder that, its like he gets up in the morning and says "hmmm, now can I screw up today?" :cantbeli:

[KB]

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald disputed the president's assertion that the prison term was excessive. Libby was sentenced under the same laws as other criminals, Fitzgerald said. "It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals."

[Red]

I wonder why you guys are getting all worked up about this. Bush has always said he never cared about what people thought and he just proved it. Let's move on.

[Desk Jockey]

I think this is one of the most disgusting examples of piss poor leadership I've ever seen. The intelligence community in many corners is disgusted, and the president has demonstrated a level of hypocrisy I've not seen in a decade.

Concerning the "harshness" of Scotter's sentence, it was hardly harsh. Compromising field agents can have a very direct impact on their safety, and there are so many examples to cite where such compromises have led both directly and indirectly to deaths. As it is, naming such agents is a huge breach of both national and personel security and I, for one, think a high price should be paid by those who commit such acts. What's more, after all the diatribes and rhetoric about supporting the troops, the president has the wherewithall to reduce the sentence of someone who directly undermined the safety of government personel endeavoring to keep the allies safe, just as troops do, for what really appears to be very ingenuine reasons. I think it is absolutely appalling!!!

Imagine he gave insurgents tomorrow's patrol route of your section and you'll get a sense of what the industry feels in this matter. There's no excuse for giving this sort of information out, or protecting those who did.

Indeed this is a line of thought that I think condemns Libby and the administration the most. I recollect an interview with Colonel Pat Lang who I think used to be with the DIA about the matter.

Some other former CIA official was on there too who was minimizing the matter, Reul Getchrict (spelling) I think, claiming she was not a "real NOC" and that the disclosure of her identity was not such a serious thing.

Colonel Lang disagreed.

He said something along the lines of how can a field officer ask an agent in a harsh dictatorship, like North Korea or Iran to trust us, to trust that we will protect his or her identity when we burn our own.

Colonel Lang said this has / will hurt recruting efforts of the intelligence community in ways we cannot yet comprehend.

[DB-ERAUPilot]

And anyone remember bush saying something along the lines of, "if there is a leaker I want to know about it so I can fire them" :roll:

[budgie]

And anyone remember bush saying something along the lines of, "if there is a leaker I want to know about it so I can fire them" :roll:


Only I don't remember him ever meaning it.

[Beowulf]

Indeed this is a line of thought that I think condemns Libby and the administration the most. I recollect an interview with Colonel Pat Lang who I think used to be with the DIA about the matter.

Some other former CIA official was on there too who was minimizing the matter, Reul Getchrict (spelling) I think, claiming she was not a "real NOC" and that the disclosure of her identity was not such a serious thing.

Colonel Lang disagreed.

He said something along the lines of how can a field officer ask an agent in a harsh dictatorship, like North Korea or Iran to trust us, to trust that we will protect his or her identity when we burn our own.

Colonel Lang said this has / will hurt recruting efforts of the intelligence community in ways we cannot yet comprehend.

That's bull****.

The whole notion that a real agent was outed is bull****.

[hist2004]

How are Rich (Armitage) and Sandy (Berger) doing?

Hist2004

[Desk Jockey]

That's bull****.

The whole notion that a real agent was outed is bull****.

Is it semantics because Plame was an officer and an agent is someone who is recruited by an officer that is the crux of your point?

So recruitng agents will not suffer because of the implied loss of trust issue?

Or, do you agree with others like Gehtrecht that she was not a real "NOC", and also according the law she was not serving in an undercover capacity abroad, or it had been 5 years since she had and thus at the time of her "outing" there was no law broken?

Or was she just not outed?

Kinda confused.

[shocker1]

How are Rich (Armitage) and Sandy (Berger) doing?

Hist2004
Passing secrets to the New York Times. It ok though they are not with Bush.

While a lier "Scooter"rofl is, it seems none of you are very concerned over all the leaks of counter terrorist operations in the NYT. Nor has anyone mentioned the Chinese/Clinton affair or why the National Security guru Berger needs to go covert under a construction trailer. Oh yeah, it does not bash Bush it's ok then. Well one could say Bush is not running a tight ship letting his rivals leak info to the NYT and other sources.:cantbeli:

[DB-ERAUPilot]

Only I don't remember him ever meaning it.


point taken

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald disputed the president's assertion that the prison term was excessive. Libby was sentenced under the same laws as other criminals, Fitzgerald said. "It is fundamental to the rule of law that all citizens stand before the bar of justice as equals."

The guy who came up with the sentence disagrees with criticism of it? Well, wouldn't we expect that? But sentencing guidelines are discretionary. One judge may look at Libby's history and his lie and arrive at one sentence, while a different judge will come up with another. So good luck deciding which is "fair".

The press spin continues. I was listening to NPR, and take a guess who they brought in to offer expert analysis of the sentence being commuted?

C'mon guess. I'll give you a minute.

They brought in Joe Wilson. You know, to offer unbiased and clear-headed analysis. The ego-centric would-be political superstar who used his wife and the war as a career springboard is brought in to tell us what it all means. I think that people outside my truck could hear me laughing on the highway.

[Jobu]

I would have given him a full pardon, shame on you Mr. President.

[Jobu]

I think this is one of the most disgusting examples of piss poor leadership I've ever seen. The intelligence community in many corners is disgusted, and the president has demonstrated a level of hypocrisy I've not seen in a decade.

Concerning the "harshness" of Scotter's sentence, it was hardly harsh. Compromising field agents can have a very direct impact on their safety, and there are so many examples to cite where such compromises have led both directly and indirectly to deaths. As it is, naming such agents is a huge breach of both national and personel security and I, for one, think a high price should be paid by those who commit such acts. What's more, after all the diatribes and rhetoric about supporting the troops, the president has the wherewithall to reduce the sentence of someone who directly undermined the safety of government personel endeavoring to keep the allies safe, just as troops do, for what really appears to be very ingenuine reasons. I think it is absolutely appalling!!!

Imagine he gave insurgents tomorrow's patrol route of your section and you'll get a sense of what the industry feels in this matter. There's no excuse for giving this sort of information out, or protecting those who did.

I hate to break the news to you but some of us lowly civilians are pretty disgusted with the intelligence community.

Failed to stop 9/11. Completely wrong about Saddam's WMD's. You have people like Valerie Plame attempting to undermine a sitting administration from within the CIA (why else would she send her own husband who then comes back from Africa and writes a NYT piece?)

Plame should have been fired.

[Palmach]

Is it semantics because Plame was an officer and an agent is someone who is recruited by an officer that is the crux of your point?

So recruitng agents will not suffer because of the implied loss of trust issue?

Or, do you agree with others like Gehtrecht that she was not a real "NOC", and also according the law she was not serving in an undercover capacity abroad, or it had been 5 years since she had and thus at the time of her "outing" there was no law broken?

Or was she just not outed?

Kinda confused.

I am kinda confused as well. As far as I understand Libby did not out the agent, whatever status she might've had at the time, nor was he ever charged with that. Furthermore, as I recall the "outer" was named as some dude at the State Department. So what does any of the above have to do with Libby?

Or are you just spoiling for ANYONE to be punished and Scooter is just a guy some people would love to pinch for something?

[vryhpyammoadded]

The Scooter debate; is yet another example of the growing philosophical polarization between what’s right and what’s corrupted in American voter psychology. This growing party cancer glomming onto any interest caring to throw a buck at them has been humoring me for so long now that it hurts me to laugh when these things come up.
One has got to love this theater where one guy can hide lies in his shoe, getting a slap on the wrist while another can simply tell a court to F off and get the noose.
What a great country! Watching its politics is better than TV. Hollywierd just can’t even touch this sort of comic brilliance.

I eagerly await both party meltdowns.

[AZRON]

Half the people posting on this thread are confusing the fVck out of me .

They want Scooter Libby to go to jail for a crime, if committed , was admttedly committed by **** Armatige.

Then they continue to state Libby got special treatment while conveinently ignoring **** Armatige.

Could it be that no legal outing occured ?

Everybody know that Special Prosecutors go on Witch Hunts, remember the 5 or 6 previous ones that were nothing but political gotchyas attempted on Clinton , SoD Weinberger and started with a vengeance back in the Nixon Watergate era.

My tax dollars at work as usual playing partisan politics.

[Skutatos]

For all these people, like Hillary Clinton, quoting Bush as saying he will fire anyone blah blah blah, as far as I know Libby isnt getting his job back, so I don't see where Bush broke his word. But if it makes all the liberals feel happy with another one of their stupid "GOTCH'YA!" moments, then thats fine with me.

[budgie]

Ahhh Shotgun Cheney. Yeah we all know he was behind it but he's what they call a 'sacred cow' in politics - you can't touch him. After all what would Baby Dubya do without Uncle ****? The only sitting vice president to have shot a man.

And the joke is in Republican circles they still harp on about how in a hundred years people will look back and finally realise what a great job these contemptible rogues have done. How convenient for them that they will never live to see such a golden era.: in a hundred years history will judge Bush and co. as harshly as their contemporaries - a screwup is still a screwup even a hundred years on. They won't live to face the music and neither will you.
Pathetic.

[Skutatos]

Liberals are all sore because their seemingly successful witchunt was just partially cancelled out. Boo hoo, whine and cry like children as usual, did anyone watch the press conference? What a joke, all those supposedly impartial journalists...

[Firetxmi]

Romney backs Libby sentence commutation

By AMY LORENTZEN, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 41 minutes ago

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, who as Massachusetts governor refused to pardon an Iraq war veteran's BB-gun conviction, on Tuesday called President Bush's commutation of Scooter Libby's prison sentence "reasonable."

Defending Bush, Romney said at a campaign stop that "the president looked very carefully at the setting" before deciding to commute the 2 1/2-year sentence of Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President **** Cheney, who was convicted in the CIA leak case.

The prosecutor in the case "went after somebody even when he knew no crime had been committed," Romney said. "Given that fact, isn't it reasonable for a commutation of a portion of the sentence to be made?"

As governor, Romney twice rejected a pardon for Anthony Circosta, who at age 13 was convicted of assault for shooting another boy in the arm with a BB gun — a shot that didn't break the skin. Circosta worked his way through college, joined the Army National Guard and led a platoon of 20 soldiers in Iraq's deadly Sunni triangle.

In 2005, as he was serving in Iraq, he sought a pardon to fulfill his dream of becoming a police officer.

In his presidential bid, Romney often proudly points out that he was the first governor in modern Massachusetts history to deny every request for a pardon or commutation during his four years in office. He says he refused pardons because he didn't want to overturn a jury.

During the four years Romney was in office, 100 requests for commutations and 172 requests for pardons were filed in the state. All were denied.

While campaigning Tuesday, Romney also threw a barb at former President Bill Clinton, who issued 457 pardons during his two terms in the White House.

"Wasn't it Bill Clinton who was handing out pardons like lollipops?" Romney said

Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070703/ap_on_el_pr/on_the2008_trail;_ylt=Ahq6iy80ZiuC914nDDAA9OGyFz4D

Way to go Romney, way to go....(In reference to the bold type).

[Bombtrack]

"Shotgun Cheney," Clinton's fault, and 9/11 references. This thread rules.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Good Link: http://www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm

[n4292936]

I hate to break the news to you but some of us lowly civilians are pretty disgusted with the intelligence community. irrespective of how upset you may be with the intel community (ignoring the work they do in all parts of the world, the support to mil ops which is succesfully conducted, the field huminters in other parts of the world succesfully collecting, the hundreds of succeses you will never hear about and the roughly 7 or more agencies who would not have had anything to do with 911, and ignoring the equivelant amount of disgust you would necessarily have with the military) the principle of not compromising intel community staff still stands.


Failed to stop 9/11. Completely wrong about Saddam's WMD's. You have people like Valerie Plame attempting to undermine a sitting administration from within the CIA (why else would she send her own husband who then comes back from Africa and writes a NYT piece?) if Int community people were acting in a manner that was anything other than apolitical then they're failing at their jobs and yes, probably should be fired. That includes those who seek to make Int fit a preconceived perception of guilt, or someone working to undermine an administration. That, however, is a seperate issue and not the point I'm arguing. In fact, I agree with you on that score. My disgust is at the hypocrisy and betrayal.

[ElHombre]

The guy [Patrick Fitzgerald] who came up with the sentence disagrees with criticism of it?

Fact check: the judge decides what the sentence is.

And a brief history on the case for the habitually factually challenged. When Plame's name became public, the CIA demanded an investigation. Fitzgerald was eventually assigned the job. During the course of his investigation, Libby decided to lie both to the investigators and the grand jury. Both of those actions are illegal whether or not you think there wasn't anything worth investigating. Libby was given a trial by jury in which his lawyers gave a rather inept defense (in particular telling the jury that Libby was framed by his bosses and then not bothering to give any evidence to back the claim).

[Kilo]

MEET VICTOR RITA: 33 Months In Jail For Same Crime As Libby (http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2007/03/comparing_lewis.html)

March 6, 2007

Comparing Lewis Libby and Victor Rita

Among the fascinating aspects of Lewis Libby's now upcoming sentencing is that his high-profile case resembles in various ways the case of Victor Rita, the defendant whose 33-month (within-guideline) sentence is currently under review by the US Supreme Court. I detailed some Libby-Rita parallels in this post last month (http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2007/02/revving_up_for__3.html), and here are the major highlights.

1. The parallel nature of the crimes. Like Lewis Libby, Victor Rita got caught up in a criminal investigation and ultimately was indicted on five felony counts based on allegations that he lied under oath as part of the investigation. And, like Libby, Victor Rita asserted his innocence and exercised his right to a jury trial. (Victor was convicted of all five counts at trial; Libby's was acquitted on one of five counts, but that may not matter much for sentencing purposes (http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2007/03/should_the_libb.html).)

2. The parallel personal history. Like Lewis Libby, Victor Rita is an atypical federal defendant because of his career in government service. Rita served 24 years in the Marine Corps, had tours of duty in Vietnam and the first Gulf war, received over 35 military metals and awards. Libby's pre-conviction resume is (equally?) impressive. The federal guidelines do not provide any formal breaks for government service or prior good works. But, with Booker making the guidelines advisory, federal judges have more discretion to consider these matters at sentencing (though Rita's sentencing judge decided just to follow the guidelines).
Since Victor Rita's crimes seems, in context, to be less serious than Lewis Libby's crimes, I view Rita's 33-month sentence as a possible benchmark for Libby's sentence. Moreover, I have heard that Judge Walton has a reputation as a tough sentencing judge, and so Victor Rita's 33 month sentence might even be viewed as just a floor for considering Libby's fate.

http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2007/03/comparing_lewis.html

[budgie]

Yeah well it seems that who you know is more important. I guess Rita didn't have contacts in high-enough places.

[Calanen]

I was surprised he did not get a full pardon in the dying days of the Bush presidency. Maybe the republican party told him not to do that as it may be electoral suicide.

[hist2004]

Pardon Hillary

She blasts Bush over Libby case, but the Clintons abused the power

July 4th 2007

One of the weaknesses of Sen. Hillary Clinton's campaign is that imagining her in the Oval Office brings to mind the scandals that marked her husband's time as President. Especially now, when she is trotting old Bubba out to rev up the faithful, the sordid past undermines her and boosts Barack Obama's promise for a different kind of politics.

The list of investigations, allegations and a few convictions during the Clinton administration was so long and tangled that the cases now morph into a fog. Distinctions among Travelgate and Whitewater and FileGate and GiftGate and the $100,000 commodities windfall get lost, with only Monica and the stained blue dress forever vivid.

Now and then, that fog is pierced by something that reminds us what a grubby time it was. The case of Lewis (Scooter) Libby does that.

When President Bush commuted Libby's prison sentence Monday, Sen. Clinton was quick to denounce him. Under Bush, she said, "cronyism and ideology trump competence and justice."

She's right in general, though the arguments on Bush's behalf this time are considerable. But when I stumbled on a list of Bill Clinton's pardons posted on the Drudge Report, I was instantly back on Jan. 20, 2001. That's when Clinton, in his final hours as President, opened the floodgates, issuing 140 pardons and 36 commutations.

The list of people Clinton let off the hook was a rogue's gallery of drug dealers, petty criminals and the politically well-connected. One was Bill Clinton's brother Roger, one was a college friend and another was a former business partner. Their lawyers' connections were key in others, including the lawyer for a man who laundered more than $100 million for the Cali cartel.

Some cases reeked of blatant corruption. Hillary's brother, Hugh Rodham, collected $400,000 from two big-time criminals who got pardons. When the news of the payments broke, the Clintons claimed surprise and demanded Rodham give the money back.

But Bill Clinton never gave Denise Rich her money back. The former wife of disgraced financier Marc Rich gave $450,000 to Clinton's presidential library and raised and contributed more than $1 million to campaigns of the Clintons and other Democrats. Her husband, who had fled the country rather than fight charges of massive tax fraud and trading with Iran during the 1979 hostage crisis, suddenly received a pardon. "Utterly false," Bill Clinton later said about charges he sold the pardon. "There was absolutely no quid pro quo."

Among those he cited who supported the pardon was Scooter Libby, a lawyer for Marc Rich.

Denise Rich, asked on TV whether she "bought" access to the Clintons, said, "Oh yes, that's true, of course." A grand jury looked at it, but no charges were brought.

Another Clinton pardon that drew a grand jury probe involved four Hasidic men from suburban New York. They had cheated the government out of tens of millions in anti-poverty programs and received prison sentences of up to 6-1/2 years. They, too, got a get-out-of-jail card, though it was not necessarily free.

As Daily News reporters later proved, leaders of the sect the men belonged to hoped that by supporting Hillary's 2000 Senate campaign, they would be rewarded with a pardon.

"They thought if they unilaterally showed support for Hillary, maybe they would get a pardon," their lawyer told The News.

And that's just what happened. On the advice of the group's rabbi, the community voted for Clinton over Republican Rick Lazio by 1,400-to-12. A month later, that rabbi had a White House meeting with Bill and Hillary Clinton and pleaded for the pardon. He got it. Again, a grand jury came up empty.

Clinton said yesterday that her husband didn't play politics with pardons, but that Bush has with Libby. Depends on how you define politics.

Source: (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/07/04/2007-07-04_pardon_hillary.html)

Hist2004

[NewsMan]

The jury verdict hasn't been overturned, and given that the sentence was inordinately harsh...


Like the kid in Georgia who got 10 years for a blow job? That kind of harsh?

[NewsMan]

THis really shouldn't be a debate over who Bush pardoned/who Clinton pardoned. We know that stuff goes on all the time. The problem is the timing, the person involved and the sneaky stuff Libby did. This is about an administration operative getting caught red handed and then, in front of the world, treated as if above the law. This administration continues to show everyone just how great our system is.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Like the kid in Georgia who got 10 years for a blow job? That kind of harsh?

I seem to remember seeing a link about that incident on this forum, but the title put me off of reading the story. I would need to learn more of the details before rendering an opinion.

[Bia]

I thought most of us here... despite party loyalty SHOULD be furious that an Angent was outed out of spite.

Fukc party lines... heads should roll when something like this happens.

NO happy 4th of July... my forefathers are indeed rolling in their graves.

[Durandal]

Hypocrites on both sides...

Democrats one hand bitch even though the defended Clinton who did the same.

Republicans wanted to impeach Clinton for the exact same thing and whine now.

No lie, I think the people we (meaning the country and the States) elect are about as clueless as it comes.

None of 'em actually write laws, most do not even read them. Corporations are funding the groups around the beltway that actually write the laws the politicians sign and the best WE get is polluted food because we'd rather subsidize corporate farms to NOT grow a crop so we can buy it from another corporation that is purchasing it for more than we can grow and sell it from China who thinks its a great idea to offer us ham smoked in DDT. The same government, for the most part, signed off on NAFTA, got a crap load of property south of the border, some of it with cattle on it even, so its easier for big business to ship and manufacture goods but I have to have a passport to cross a border that I have crossed a dozen times in my life.

Now, we'll all be bitching back and forth over who the best candidate is for 2008. Everyone poo-poos the one single person saying anything remotely different. Everybody bitches about corruption and old school politics and this party or that party to blame but rather than take a chance, everyone is ready to hop on the status quo **** so badly it makes me ƒucking sick.

Blah, blah, blah, blah....

[LaoSexMachine]

Not you know but who you blow.

[BugHunt]

I personnely love the way some of the dribblers around here proclaim respect and love for those "serving" and in the same breath proclaim the same people scumbags ;)

A soldier is a great man for lying his life on the line - until that is he voices a political opinion (even after theyve retired) in which case there career immediately becomes suspect. And there a lying sack of ****e. Theres been too many examples of this to list...


And oh i love the irony - the intelligence community are scumbags for thinking Saddam had WMD and was creating nukes. But when some1 speaks out and says "hey theres alot of fabricated flimflam and a race to war, and they dont have nukes!" - the whistleblower then becomes THE ANTI-CHRIST! :roll:

And when the CIA agents names outted - the scumbag who did so or covered it is a "good honest republican" who was making his country safer... THE VILLIANS THE WHISTLEBLOWER - KILL THEM!!! - PROTECT THE LEAKER OF NAMES!!


When Valarie Plaines husband was speaking out it was because he KNEW they werent making nukes and it was fabricated intell! Ill bet they like many others, some of who resigned, had also explored there "chain of command" vigourously before coming forth.

[Invisigoth]

I don't get why this turns into a partisan issue? The guy committed perjury, he got sentenced for it, and now the President lets him off because he's "his guy". Is that outrageous? Yes, because he was lawfully convicted for a crime. Would it be outrageous if he was a democrat? Yes.... But bringing up Clinton in defense of Libby? Kinda pointless. People aren't pissed off because they are democrats, they are pissed off because the guy is a convicted criminal.

[Jobu]

I thought most of us here... despite party loyalty SHOULD be furious that an Angent was outed out of spite.


By Richard Armitage? Good luck proving that.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Fact check: the judge decides what the sentence is.

You're suggesting that it was the judge's idea?



WASHINGTON - Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, in a sentencing memo, has recommended that former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby spend 2-1/2 to 3 years in prison for obstructing the CIA leak investigation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18868887/


- so my previous comment stands. Of course Fitzgerald will defend the very sentence he suggested.



And a brief history on the case for the habitually factually challenged. When Plame's name became public, the CIA demanded an investigation. Fitzgerald was eventually assigned the job. During the course of his investigation, Libby decided to lie both to the investigators and the grand jury. Both of those actions are illegal whether or not you think there wasn't anything worth investigating. Libby was given a trial by jury in which his lawyers gave a rather inept defense (in particular telling the jury that Libby was framed by his bosses and then not bothering to give any evidence to back the claim).

I completely agree - but what's your point? Has anybody suggested that Libby didn't commit a crime? The system is designed to allow Bush to do exactly what he did. It is within the law, just as what happened to Plame was within the law. If it were not, people would be up on charges for outing Plame, and Libby would be in jail because Bush would lack the authority to commute the sentence.

The President has this power - and there have been over 20,000 uses of it during the 20th century alone. Hell, George Washington did it. Of course naturally in this case it must not be viewed as executive clemency, but must be part of a Machiavellian scheme executed by El Diablo himself. It will take months for the smell of brimstone to leave the oval office after Bush leaves.

I don't like that the President has this unrestricted power - because I don't like the way it's used. But it is plainly unreasonable to act as if Bush is unique in any respect in doing this kind of thing.

[Baboonass]

I thought most of us here... despite party loyalty SHOULD be furious that an Angent was outed out of spite.

Fukc party lines... heads should roll when something like this happens.

NO happy 4th of July... my forefathers are indeed rolling in their graves.

Sigh....


Once again, Val was not an agent in the clandestine division.

She was not privy to having her ID classified.

Bad form? sure, but not illegal.


Scooter was convicted of perjury, not of "revealing" a secure source.

No one is going to tried for this as, there is no crime.


Sheesh.

[Desk Jockey]

In 1997, while she was working for the C.I.A., Plame met former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_C._Wilson_IV) "at a reception in Washington ... at the residence of the Turkish Ambassador" (Wilson, Politics of Truth 240). Unable to reveal her CIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) role to Wilson on their first date, initially she told him that she was an energy trader in Brussels, and he thought that she was "an up-and-coming international executive" (Wilson, Politics of Truth 423).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame#_note-Goffard) After their second date, Plame did reveal her employment with the CIA to Wilson (The Politics of Truth 240-45). They were married on April 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_3), 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998).


This is wiki and I have no intention of buying Joe Wilson's book but did something change in her status between the first and second date? "Unable to reveal her CIA role"


Let me say two things. Number one, I am not speaking to whether or not Valerie Wilson was covert. And anything I say is not intended to say anything beyond this: that she was a CIA officer from January 1st, 2002, forward. I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003. And all I'll say is that, look, we have not made any allegation that Mr. Libby knowingly, intentionally outed a covert agent. We have not charged that. And so I'm not making that assertion. (Italics added.)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame#_note-Fitzgeraldpress)

Above is a quote by Patrick Fitzgerald.
______________________________________________________________________________

I guess I am guilty of not paying attention to detail that the issue is not whether or not an agent / officer was outed.

Even if she was, which as Match says she was not an covert agent / officer in the Clandestine Division, it is immaterial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame

[Baboonass]

Even if she was, which as Match says she was not an covert agent / officer in the Clandestine Division, it is immaterial.




Indeed, but then who could blame you?

Every media outlet feel for the sexy headline hook, line and sinker.

It made for a very distrubing headline, and when no one challenged it (for many reasons, not all of them political), it stuck.

The truth came out a few times, but made hardly a ripple. No one is intersted in the facts when the big bucks was in creating and maintaining a scandel.

The actuall guidlines for who is and who is not privleged in their ID is not public.

[Baboonass]

To be fair.

By the description of the law, it would appear I was incorrect, but government service policy says different.

This could be an interesting debate.



United States Code
TITLE 50 - WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
CHAPTER 15 - NATIONAL SECURITY
SUBCHAPTER IV - PROTECTION OF CERTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

U.S. Code as of: 01/19/04 Section 421. Protection of identities of certain United States undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and sources

(a) Disclosure of information by persons having or having had
access to classified information that identifies covert agent
Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified
information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses
any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not
authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the
information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the
United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert
agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be
fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or
both.
(b) Disclosure of information by persons who learn identity of
covert agents as result of having access to classified
information
Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified
information, learns the identify of a covert agent and
intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert
agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified
information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies
such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative
measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship
to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned
not more than five years, or both.
(c) Disclosure of information by persons in course of pattern of
activities intended to identify and expose covert agents
Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to
identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that
such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence
activities of the United States, discloses any information that
identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not
authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the
information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the
United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such
individual's classified intelligence relationship to the United
States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than
three years, or both.
(d) Imposition of consecutive sentences
A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be
consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment.













United States Code
TITLE 50 - WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE
CHAPTER 15 - NATIONAL SECURITY
SUBCHAPTER IV - PROTECTION OF CERTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

U.S. Code as of: 01/19/04 Section 422. Defenses and exceptions

(a) Disclosure by United States of identity of covert agent
It is a defense to a prosecution under section 421 of this title
that before the commission of the offense with which the defendant
is charged, the United States had publicly acknowledged or revealed
the intelligence relationship to the United States of the
individual the disclosure of whose intelligence relationship to the
United States is the basis for the prosecution.
(b) Conspiracy, misprision of felony, aiding and abetting, etc.
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no person other than a person
committing an offense under section 421 of this title shall be
subject to prosecution under such section by virtue of section 2 or
4 of title 18 or shall be subject to prosecution for conspiracy to
commit an offense under such section.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply (A) in the case of a person who
acted in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify
and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such
activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence
activities of the United States, or (B) in the case of a person who
has authorized access to classified information.
(c) Disclosure to select Congressional committees on intelligence
It shall not be an offense under section 421 of this title to
transmit information described in such section directly to either
congressional intelligence committee.
(d) Disclosure by agent of own identity
It shall not be an offense under section 421 of this title for an
individual to disclose information that solely identifies himself
as a covert agent.



Section 426. Definitions

For the purposes of this subchapter:
(1) The term "classified information" means information or
material designated and clearly marked or clearly represented,
pursuant to the provisions of a statute or Executive order (or a
regulation or order issued pursuant to a statute or Executive
order), as requiring a specific degree of protection against
unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national security.
(2) The term "authorized", when used with respect to access to
classified information, means having authority, right, or
permission pursuant to the provisions of a statute, Executive
order, directive of the head of any department or agency engaged
in foreign intelligence or counterintelligence activities, order
of any United States court, or provisions of any Rule of the
House of Representatives or resolution of the Senate which
assigns responsibility within the respective House of Congress
for the oversight of intelligence activities.
(3) The term "disclose" means to communicate, provide, impart,
transmit, transfer, convey, publish, or otherwise make available.
(4) The term "covert agent" means -
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an
intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed
Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency -
(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member
is classified information, and
(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within
the last five years served outside the United States; or

(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship
to the United States is classified information, and -
(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an
agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance
to, an intelligence agency, or
(ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an
agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or
foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation; or

(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose
past or present intelligence relationship to the United States
is classified information and who is a present or former agent
of, or a present or former informant or source of operational
assistance to, an intelligence agency.

(5) The term "intelligence agency" means the Central
Intelligence Agency, a foreign intelligence component of the
Department of Defense, or the foreign counterintelligence or
foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
(6) The term "informant" means any individual who furnishes
information to an intelligence agency in the course of a
confidential relationship protecting the identity of such
individual from public disclosure.
(7) The terms "officer" and "employee" have the meanings given
such terms by section 2104 and 2105, respectively, of title 5.
(8) The term "Armed Forces" means the Army, Navy, Air Force,
Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.
(9) The term "United States", when used in a geographic sense,
means all areas under the territorial sovereignty of the United
States and the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands.
(10) The term "pattern of activities" requires a series of acts
with a common purpose or objective.

[n4292936]

thanks for that Matchanu

[pistol]

You're suggesting that it was the judge's idea?



- so my previous comment stands. Of course Fitzgerald will defend the very sentence he suggested.



I completely agree - but what's your point? Has anybody suggested that Libby didn't commit a crime? The system is designed to allow Bush to do exactly what he did. It is within the law, just as what happened to Plame was within the law. If it were not, people would be up on charges for outing Plame, and Libby would be in jail because Bush would lack the authority to commute the sentence.

The President has this power - and there have been over 20,000 uses of it during the 20th century alone. Hell, George Washington did it. Of course naturally in this case it must not be viewed as executive clemency, but must be part of a Machiavellian scheme executed by El Diablo himself. It will take months for the smell of brimstone to leave the oval office after Bush leaves.

I don't like that the President has this unrestricted power - because I don't like the way it's used. But it is plainly unreasonable to act as if Bush is unique in any respect in doing this kind of thing.

Do you support The Decider's decision?

[Bia]

Sigh....


Once again, Val was not an agent in the clandestine division.

She was not privy to having her ID classified.

Bad form? sure, but not illegal.


Scooter was convicted of perjury, not of "revealing" a secure source.

No one is going to tried for this as, there is no crime.


Sheesh.

Sheesh @ you...

I never said mr Libby outed anyone.

I am referring to the original f-up in this entire mess.... an agent was outed.... something that should carry a life sentence in my opinion..... yet no heads are rolling.... I instead imply out forefathers are rolling in their graves at this bullsh-i-t messs it's evolved into.

A crime certainly was committed IMO.

[Jobu]

Sheesh @ you...

I never said mr Libby outed anyone.

I am referring to the original f-up in this entire mess.... an agent was outed.... something that should carry a life sentence in my opinion..... yet no heads are rolling.... I instead imply out forefathers are rolling in their graves at this bullsh-i-t messs it's evolved into.

A crime certainly was committed IMO.


Actually you said she was outed for spite. Do you think Richard Armitage, an anti-war member of the State Dept, outed her purposefully out of spite? That's a pretty crazy accusation.

[IraGlacialis]

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/*******120.gif (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/*******/brand/SIG=pd7i95;_ylt=AnIRKAoblUzbqQfhOeCx1Xkb.3QA/*http://www.*******.com)
White House accuses Clintons of hypocrisy in Libby case
By Matt Spetalnick

WASHINGTON (*******) - The White House on Thursday accused former President Bill Clinton and his wife, Sen. Hillary Clinton, of hypocrisy for criticizing President George W. Bush's decision to spare ex-aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby from prison.
The administration is on the defensive after Bush commuted Libby's 2-1/2-year sentence in a CIA leak case. It took aim at Clinton for granting 140 pardons, including one for fugitive financier Marc Rich, in the last hours of his presidency.
"The hypocrisy demonstrated by Democratic leaders on this issue is rather startling," White House spokesman Scott Stanzel told reporters.
Bush's decision on Monday was widely seen as an attempt to shore up support among fellow conservatives increasingly skeptical of his Iraq war policy and resisting his domestic agenda in his final 19 months in office.
Libby was saved from jail for his conviction in March on charges of lying and obstruction of justice in an investigation into who leaked the identity of a CIA officer, Valerie Plame. Plame's husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, had accused the Bush administration of twisting intelligence to justify the Iraq war.
Clinton, in Iowa to promote his wife's presidential candidacy, told a radio station on Tuesday that the prevailing view in Bush's administration is "they should be able to do what they want to do, and that the law is a minor obstacle."
Clinton also drew a distinction with his own controversial pardons, saying, "I think the facts were different."
Hillary Clinton said in a speech that Bush administration had "elevated cronyism over the rule of law."
Bush said he concluded that the sentence given to Libby, Vice President **** Cheney's former chief of staff, was too severe.
Bush left intact a $250,000 fine and two-year probation for Libby but fueled further Democratic anger by refusing to rule out a full pardon for Libby. Libby paid the fine on Thursday with a cashier's check, according to court records.
"When you think about the previous administration and the 11th hour fire-sale pardons and issues that were provided, commutations on the last day ... it's really startling that they have the gall to criticize what we believe is a very considered, a very deliberate approach to a very unique case," Stanzel said.
Asked if he was accusing the Clintons of hypocrisy, he said: "It is amazing to me that they can, with what they did on January 20, 2001, they can criticize the president for issuing a commutation ... It sort of pales in comparison."
Analogies have also been made to pardons issued by Bush's father, then-President George Bush, in 1992 to key figures in the Iran-contra scandal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070705/pl_nm/bush_libby_dc;_ylt=As6ZzTvzMkmkRpm_hjeq3mms0NUE

[Hollis]

Ira you got to chuckle at some of the D's calling Bush on this. Clinton did a number of his under the cover of darkness so to speak, last minute in office kinds of stuff.

I am waiting for Carter to say something.

"On this day in 1977, U.S. President Jimmy Carter grants an unconditional pardon to hundreds of thousands of men who evaded the draft during the Vietnam . . . "

[IraGlacialis]

NPR had a debate about this. One side says that reasing him was wrong and the other side though not enough was done when restoring him (even a few democrats sided with Bush).
Writers Weigh In on the Libby Verdict (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11702928)
The actual brodcast: http://www.npr.org/templates/dmg/popup.php?id=11702930&type=1&date=03-Jul-2007&au=1&pid=52725214&random=3160553406&guid=0007A2A10215055D0FA137D061626364&uaType=WM,RM&aaType=RM,WM&upf=Win32&topicName=News&subtopicName=Nation&prgCode=TOTN&hubId=-1&thingId=11702928&ssid=&tableModifier=&mtype=WM
One caller made me chuckle when he went on a slightly incoherant anti-Administration rant.

Personally I don't really care that much for this issue. It's just politicians being politicians. And I agree with comments about the fact that, support him or not, Bush's ratings are so low in the polls and he is in his second term, this incident is a practical drop in the bucket for him compared to other criticisms.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Do you support The Decider's decision?

Well I'm on the fence. I think he should have had to do some time. But I think 30 months was too much. And I think waiting a couple of months would have made things look a bit better, which is what this is really all about.

[pistol]

Well I'm on the fence. I think he should have had to do some time. But I think 30 months was too much. And I think waiting a couple of months would have made things look a bit better, which is what this is really all about.

Really?



Three-fourths of the 198 defendants sentenced in federal court last year for obstruction of justice — one of four crimes Libby was found guilty of in March — got some prison time. According to federal data, the average sentence defendants received for that charge alone was 70 months


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-libby4jul04,0,6295306,full.story?coll=la-home-nation

Were those sentences "too much" too? Do you think we should eliminate the possibility of prison time for those who obstruct justice in federal cases?

[Baboonass]

Sheesh @ you...

I never said mr Libby outed anyone.

I am referring to the original f-up in this entire mess.... an agent was outed.... something that should carry a life sentence in my opinion..... yet no heads are rolling.... I instead imply out forefathers are rolling in their graves at this bullsh-i-t messs it's evolved into.

A crime certainly was committed IMO.



SHeesh at you again.

No one was "outed".

If a covert/clandestine agent was outed, then I'd completely agree with you.

Fact is, she was never in that catagory for identification privcy as proteced by law.

Something else to consider, your identity and the privecy there off, is incumbant on the individual to maintain. Her name got out, why? Was Scooter, or Richard Armitage going through the CIA dumpster looking for names?

She outed herself, but then she had no concern over this as her ID wasn't in need of classification.

[Baboonass]

Timeline.


http://justoneminute.typepad.com/footnotes/2004/07/the_joseph_wils.html

[Freedom-Fries]

as far as I know Libby isnt getting his job back

The FBI should be happy about that