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ZhukovG
07-04-2007, 01:56 PM
This is the real enemy that Pentagon must face in the years to come

Original article here (http://www.energybulletin.net/31067.html)



The Pentagon v. peak oil

by Michael T. Klare
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The real casus belli: peak oil... (http://www.energybulletin.net/31330.html)

Sixteen gallons of oil. That's how much the average American soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan consumes on a daily basis -- either directly, through the use of Humvees, tanks, trucks, and helicopters, or indirectly, by calling in air strikes. Multiply this figure by 162,000 soldiers in Iraq, 24,000 in Afghanistan, and 30,000 in the surrounding region (including sailors aboard U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf) and you arrive at approximately 3.5 million gallons of oil: the daily petroleum tab for U.S. combat operations in the Middle East war zone.

Multiply that daily tab by 365 and you get 1.3 billion gallons: the estimated annual oil expenditure for U.S. combat operations in Southwest Asia. That's greater than the total annual oil usage of Bangladesh, population 150 million -- and yet it's a gross underestimate of the Pentagon's wartime consumption.

Such numbers cannot do full justice to the extraordinary gas-guzzling expense of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. After all, for every soldier stationed "in theater," there are two more in transit, in training, or otherwise in line for eventual deployment to the war zone -- soldiers who also consume enormous amounts of oil, even if less than their compatriots overseas. Moreover, to sustain an "expeditionary" army located halfway around the world, the Department of Defense must move millions of tons of arms, ammunition, food, fuel, and equipment every year by plane or ship, consuming additional tanker-loads of petroleum. Add this to the tally and the Pentagon's war-related oil budget jumps appreciably, though exactly how much we have no real way of knowing.

And foreign wars, sad to say, account for but a small fraction of the Pentagon's total petroleum consumption. Possessing the world's largest fleet of modern aircraft, helicopters, ships, tanks, armored vehicles, and support systems -- virtually all powered by oil -- the Department of Defense (DoD) is, in fact, the world's leading consumer of petroleum. It can be difficult to obtain precise details on the DoD's daily oil hit, but an April 2007 report (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/05/01/pentagon_study_says_oil_reliance_strains_military/) by a defense contractor, LMI Government Consulting (http://www.lmi.org/), suggests that the Pentagon might consume as much as 340,000 barrels (14 million gallons) every day. This is greater than the total national consumption of Sweden or Switzerland.

Not "Guns v. Butter," but "Guns v. Oil"

For anyone who drives a motor vehicle these days, this has ominous implications. With the price of gasoline now 75 cents to a dollar more than it was just six months ago, it's obvious that the Pentagon is facing a potentially serious budgetary crunch. Just like any ordinary American family, the DoD has to make some hard choices: It can use its normal amount of petroleum and pay more at the Pentagon's equivalent of the pump, while cutting back on other basic expenses; or it can cut back on its gas use in order to protect favored weapons systems under development. Of course, the DoD has a third option: It can go before Congress and plead for yet another supplemental budget hike, but this is sure to provoke renewed calls for a timetable for an American troop withdrawal from Iraq, and so is an unlikely prospect at this time.

Nor is this destined to prove a temporary issue. As recently as two years ago, the U.S. Department of Energy (DoE) was confidently predicting that the price of crude oil would hover in the $30 per barrel range for another quarter century or so, leading to gasoline prices of about $2 per gallon. But then came Hurricane Katrina, the crisis in Iran, the insurgency in southern Nigeria, and a host of other problems that tightened the oil market, prompting the DoE to raise its long-range price projection into the $50 per barrel range. This is the amount that figures in many current governmental budgetary forecasts -- including, presumably, those of the Department of Defense. But just how realistic is this? The price of a barrel of crude oil today is hovering in the $66 range. Many energy analysts now say that a price range of $70-$80 per barrel (or possibly even significantly more) is far more likely to be our fate for the foreseeable future.

A price rise of this magnitude, when translated into the cost of gasoline, aviation fuel, diesel fuel, home-heating oil, and petrochemicals will play havoc with the budgets of families, farms, businesses, and local governments. Sooner or later, it will force people to make profound changes in their daily lives -- as benign as purchasing a hybrid vehicle in place of an SUV or as painful as cutting back on home heating or health care simply to make an unavoidable drive to work. It will have an equally severe affect on the Pentagon budget. As the world's number one consumer of petroleum products, the DoD will obviously be disproportionately affected by a doubling in the price of crude oil. If it can't turn to Congress for redress, it will have to reduce its profligate consumption of oil and/or cut back on other expenses, including weapons purchases.

The rising price of oil is producing what Pentagon contractor LMI calls a "fiscal disconnect" between the military's long-range objectives and the realities of the energy marketplace. "The need to recapitalize obsolete and damaged equipment [from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan] and to develop high-technology systems to implement future operational concepts is growing," it explained in an April 2007 report (http://www.lmi.org/NewsandEvents/news/News07_006.aspx). However, an inability "to control increased energy costs from fuel and supporting infrastructure diverts resources that would otherwise be available to procure new capabilities."

And this is likely to be the least of the Pentagon's worries. The Department of Defense is, after all, the world's richest military organization, and so can be expected to tap into hidden accounts of one sort or another in order to pay its oil bills and finance its many pet weapons projects. However, this assumes that sufficient petroleum will be available on world markets to meet the Pentagon's ever-growing needs -- by no means a foregone conclusion. Like every other large consumer, the DoD must now confront the looming -- but hard to assess -- reality of "Peak Oil" (http://www.peakoil.net/); the very real possibility that global oil production is at or near its maximum sustainable ("peak") output and will soon commence an irreversible decline.

That global oil output will eventually reach a peak and then decline is no longer a matter of debate; all major energy organizations have now embraced this view. What remains open for argument is precisely when this moment will arrive. Some experts place it comfortably in the future -- meaning two or three decades down the pike -- while others put it in this very decade. If there is a consensus emerging, it is that peak-oil output will occur somewhere around 2015. Whatever the timing of this momentous event, it is apparent that the world faces a profound shift in the global availability of energy, as we move from a situation of relative abundance to one of relative scarcity. It should be noted, moreover, that this shift will apply, above all, to the form of energy most in demand by the Pentagon: the petroleum liquids used to power planes, ships, and armored vehicles.

The Bush Doctrine Faces Peak Oil

Peak oil is not one of the global threats the Department of Defense has ever had to face before; and, like other U.S. government agencies, it tended to avoid the issue, viewing it until recently as a peripheral matter. As intimations of peak oil's imminent arrival increased, however, it has been forced to sit up and take notice. Spurred perhaps by rising fuel prices, or by the growing attention being devoted to "energy security" (http://www.iags.org/es.html) by academic strategists, the DoD has suddenly taken an interest in the problem. To guide its exploration of the issue, the Office of Force Transformation (http://www.oft.osd.mil/) within the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy commissioned LMI (http://www.lmi.org/NewsandEvents/news/News07_006.aspx) to conduct a study on the implications of future energy scarcity for Pentagon strategic planning.

The resulting study (http://www.oft.osd.mil/), "Transforming the Way the DoD Looks at Energy," was a bombshell. Determining that the Pentagon's favored strategy of global military engagement is incompatible with a world of declining oil output, LMI concluded that "current planning presents a situation in which the aggregate operational capability of the force may be unsustainable in the long term."

LMI arrived at this conclusion from a careful analysis of current U.S. military doctrine. At the heart of the national military strategy (http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html) imposed by the Bush administration -- the Bush Doctrine -- are two core principles: transformation, or the conversion of America's stodgy, tank-heavy Cold War military apparatus into an agile, continent-hopping high-tech, futuristic war machine; and pre-emption, or the initiation of hostilities against "rogue states" like Iraq and Iran, thought to be pursuing weapons of mass destruction. What both principles entail is a substantial increase in the Pentagon's consumption of petroleum products -- either because such plans rely, to an increased extent, on air and sea-power or because they imply an accelerated tempo of military operations.

As summarized by LMI, implementation of the Bush Doctrine requires that "our forces must expand geographically and be more mobile and expeditionary so that they can be engaged in more theaters and prepared for expedient deployment anywhere in the world"; at the same time, they "must transition from a reactive to a proactive force posture to deter enemy forces from organizing for and conducting potentially catastrophic attacks." It follows that, "to carry out these activities, the U.S. military will have to be even more energy intense.... Considering the trend in operational fuel consumption and future capability needs, this ‘new' force employment construct will likely demand more energy/fuel in the deployed setting."

The resulting increase in petroleum consumption is likely to prove dramatic. During Operation Desert Storm in 1991, the average American soldier consumed only four gallons of oil per day; as a result of George W. Bush's initiatives, a U.S. soldier in Iraq is now using four times (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/05/01/pentagon_study_says_oil_reliance_strains_military/) as much. If this rate of increase continues unabated, the next major war could entail an expenditure of 64 gallons per soldier per day.

It was the unassailable logic of this situation that led LMI to conclude that there is a severe "operational disconnect" between the Bush administration's principles for future war-fighting and the global energy situation. The administration has, the company notes, "tethered operational capability to high-technology solutions that require continued growth in energy sources" -- and done so at the worst possible moment historically. After all, the likelihood is that the global energy supply is about to begin diminishing rather than expanding. Clearly, writes LMI in its April 2007 report, "it may not be possible to execute operational concepts and capabilities to achieve our security strategy if the energy implications are not considered." And when those energy implications are considered, the strategy appears "unsustainable."

The Pentagon as a Global Oil-Protection Service

How will the military respond to this unexpected challenge? One approach, favored by some within the DoD, is to go "green" -- that is, to emphasize the accelerated development and acquisition of fuel-efficient weapons systems so that the Pentagon can retain its commitment to the Bush Doctrine, but consume less oil while doing so. This approach, if feasible, would have the obvious attraction of allowing the Pentagon to assume an environmentally-friendly facade while maintaining and developing its existing, interventionist force structure.

But there is also a more sinister approach that may be far more highly favored by senior officials: To ensure itself a "reliable" source of oil in perpetuity, the Pentagon will increase its efforts to maintain control over foreign sources of supply, notably oil fields and refineries in the Persian Gulf region, especially in Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. This would help explain the recent talk of U.S. plans to retain "enduring" bases (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174807/) in Iraq, along with its already impressive and elaborate basing infrastructure in these other countries.

The U.S. military first began procuring petroleum products from Persian Gulf suppliers to sustain combat operations in the Middle East and Asia during World War II, and has been doing so ever since. It was, in part, to protect this vital source of petroleum for military purposes that, in 1945, President Roosevelt first proposed the deployment of an American military presence in the Persian Gulf region. Later, the protection of Persian Gulf oil became more important for the economic well-being of the United States, as articulated in President Jimmy Carter's "Carter Doctrine" (http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/documents/speeches/su80jec.phtml) speech of January 23, 1980 as well as in President George H. W. Bush's August 1990 decision to stop Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, which led to the first Gulf War -- and, many would argue, the decision of the younger Bush to invade Iraq over a decade later.

Along the way, the American military has been transformed into a "global oil-protection service" (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1888/michael_klare_on_oil_wars_and_the_american_military) for the benefit of U.S. corporations and consumers, fighting overseas battles and establishing its bases to ensure that we get our daily fuel fix. It would be both sad and ironic, if the military now began fighting wars mainly so that it could be guaranteed the fuel to run its own planes, ships, and tanks -- consuming hundreds of billions of dollars a year that could instead be spent on the development of petroleum alternatives.


Michael T. Klare, professor of Peace and World Security Studies at Hampshire College, is the author of Blood and Oil: The Dangers and Consequences of America's Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805079386/nationbooks08) (Owl Books). Copyright 2007 Michael T. Klare

2Sheds_Jackson
07-04-2007, 04:26 PM
If you've enjoyed this creative writing exercise, you may like some of our other works including;

A Polluter of One; the Pentagon's Shameful CO2 Footprint

How Much Does The US Hate the Environment?

Why the Pentagon is Secretly Drilling a Hole in Our Ozone Layer

Unbalanced Earth; Excess of Heavy Machinery in Iraq is Attracting Deadly Asteroids

I have to admire their rather creative layering of one fear-based agenda on top of another. I was able to suspend my disbelief for a while, but the instant they trotted out peak oil and devoted so much space to it, I was done.

sinophile
07-04-2007, 06:27 PM
It might read like alarmist b.s., but the proof is in other countries actions: China appears to be tooling up for battle over resources. They're laying a worldwide "legal" foundation of claims on resources, foremost of which is oil, which they may later defend militarily. Not handicapped by concerns over human rights, corporate responsibility, foreign corrupt practices act, etc. they have a real advantage over the US. India, Australia, Canada, Spain, Germany... they're all spending massively on defense... for what? Not to fight Al Qiaeda.

I see zero signs for optimism on this issue. The DOD should be facing it.

Lokos
07-05-2007, 03:55 AM
Australia

We are? How so?

Lokos

Dr_ColoSSus
07-05-2007, 05:38 AM
I think he means the government spending big on F-35's, super hornets, LHA's and Aegis destroyers, but I fail to see the relevance, after all this is just upgrading old equipment.

thesuperdude
07-05-2007, 06:19 AM
I have to admire their rather creative layering of one fear-based agenda on top of another. I was able to suspend my disbelief for a while, but the instant they trotted out peak oil and devoted so much space to it, I was done.

So you don't think the oil production will peak?

2Sheds_Jackson
07-05-2007, 11:18 AM
So you don't think the oil production will peak?

Of course it will. And at some point, the Sun will begin to swell up, and casually blow away all of Earth's atmosphere before it engulfs the planet in fire. But does that mean it makes sense to generate hysteria around either one? I pondered this question while I looked down at the guy walking around the courtyard in my business complex with the gas powered leaf blower. He's my canary in the coal mine. He's there every other day, after another guy cuts the grass with a gas mower every other day. When Mr. Leaf Blower Guy buys a rake, I'll begin to listen to tales of impending energy doom.

I'm just friggin' sick of our predisposition to generate crisis after crisis. I want the cold war back, so we can just worry about being nuked and forget about everything else. Now we have a climate hysteria lobby, an energy hysteria lobby, a terrorism hysteria lobby, and others for the environment, illegal immigration, asteroid impact, tsunami, super-caldera eruption, bird flu, all-conquering China, and erectile dysfunction (note, in case of priapism - an erection lasting more than 4 hours, consult your doctor). It's as if we need something to be worried about.

ZhukovG
07-05-2007, 12:37 PM
Of course it will. And at some point, the Sun will begin to swell up, and casually blow away all of Earth's atmosphere before it engulfs the planet in fire. But does that mean it makes sense to generate hysteria around either one? I pondered this question while I looked down at the guy walking around the courtyard in my business complex with the gas powered leaf blower. He's my canary in the coal mine. He's there every other day, after another guy cuts the grass with a gas mower every other day. When Mr. Leaf Blower Guy buys a rake, I'll begin to listen to tales of impending energy doom.

I'm just friggin' sick of our predisposition to generate crisis after crisis. I want the cold war back, so we can just worry about being nuked and forget about everything else. Now we have a climate hysteria lobby, an energy hysteria lobby, a terrorism hysteria lobby, and others for the environment, illegal immigration, asteroid impact, tsunami, super-caldera eruption, bird flu, all-conquering China, and erectile dysfunction (note, in case of priapism - an erection lasting more than 4 hours, consult your doctor). It's as if we need something to be worried about.


Ur right too much things to worry rofl

vryhpyammoadded
07-05-2007, 05:40 PM
Great, another “peace at any price” apologist spouting the socialist collective swords into plowshares nonsense. Sorry Prof. Klare but the worlds head is too far gone up its own a*s to talk nice. Saddam’s final straw breaking the UN has proven it’s every nation for itself now. Your kind are irrelevant for the time being as the world attempts to dislodge the blockage. We will be pleased to chat with you after the big war.

On a side note, there are plenty of billions to be tapped by reversing the US course away from socialism and back to its original free market, small government roots. Meanwhile, the world is too full of ignorant savages and criminals just drooling at the thought of American weakness to warrant any military fund reallocations.

afreu
07-05-2007, 05:55 PM
Oh nice the new cool thing of the day seems to be relativism. Oil peak may be reached in 50 years who cares someday the sun's gonna blow up.

2Sheds_Jackson
07-05-2007, 07:26 PM
Oh nice the new cool thing of the day seems to be relativism. Oil peak may be reached in 50 years who cares someday the sun's gonna blow up.

You disagree that the reaction to threats should be relative to their seriousness? Peak oil may be in 50 years, or 70 years, or 100 years. Peak oil is only part of the equation - we currently make absolutely no effort to conserve. None. The instant that conservation actually starts, current projections for when oil will "run out" are pitched into the toilet. But people make lots of money when oil is more expensive, and selling books about impending disaster, it's not like we can expect an honest debate on the subject. Some people are comfortable to wring their hands over projected dates that nobody has any clue about, coupled with math based on worst case scenarios - I choose to worry about actual problems that present themselves.

Kilgor
07-05-2007, 07:33 PM
I think you'd find oil production has peaked in many countries already.

GromGrad
07-05-2007, 08:41 PM
This is out of date data. I have been a geologist for 12 years now and let me tell you what's up. Peak Oil discoveries happened in 1965 and peak production per capita happened in 1979. The TRUTH, not what oil companies and the government wants you to know so you don't panic, is that we have either hit the peak oil production already or it will peak before 2010. The geologists who put out the "few decades from now" company line base their statement on a theory from 1956 called the Hubert Curve which is beyond out of date. It is like reading a book about computers from those years. The real peak oil data is a very closely guarded secret of each oil company but from the years i have worked in the industry i can tell you that just about every company with a decent market share has a oil peak calculated in this decade. A major one from Europe whose name has to do with something aquatic has 2004 as their peak oil year. Everyone in the know is **** SCARED. Unless they are really old in which case it doesn't matter to them any. In fact i left the industry earlier this year after i sat down with a few colleges and we really talked about where our industry was going. These were my college friends who work at different companies and let me tell you alarm bells were going off from all ends. We will be paying in the 80s per barrel by 2010 at least. If you are good at statistics, go figure out what that does to an economy. This is assuming we don't get into any more wars, other wise it would be even higher. We were paying $18 dollars a barrel Jan 1 2002. The price is $76nwo and it rose $2 today.

GromGrad
07-05-2007, 08:44 PM
You disagree that the reaction to threats should be relative to their seriousness? Peak oil may be in 50 years, or 70 years, or 100 years. Peak oil is only part of the equation - we currently make absolutely no effort to conserve. None. The instant that conservation actually starts, current projections for when oil will "run out" are pitched into the toilet. But people make lots of money when oil is more expensive, and selling books about impending disaster, it's not like we can expect an honest debate on the subject. Some people are comfortable to wring their hands over projected dates that nobody has any clue about, coupled with math based on worst case scenarios - I choose to worry about actual problems that present themselves.

Please stop embarrassing your self and your country with your lack of knowledge.

Here is your new avatar
http://verena.nomadlife.org/uploaded_images/ostrich-757855.jpg

tbk107
07-05-2007, 09:10 PM
Please stop embarrassing your self and your country with your lack of knowledge.

Here is your new avatar
http://verena.nomadlife.org/uploaded_images/ostrich-757855.jpg

and here's yours
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/7541/hillarytinfoilhatme3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oil is not running out any time during your lifetime or your kids lifetime or your kids kids lifetime.

The only oil the world is running out of is the cheap kind.

GromGrad
07-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Oil is not running out any time during your lifetime or your kids lifetime or your kids kids lifetime.

The only oil the world is running out of is the cheap kind.

You base this on what? As i said i worked in the industry for 12 years, i am a geologist. What are you credentials? What are your opinions based on? I call oil not being used because it's economically inviable "running out"

Here from the Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas. You see any peak after 2010?
Everyone should at least read the Hirsch Report. Good place to Start.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/ASPO_2004.png


Douche.

Kilgor
07-05-2007, 09:41 PM
I dont know why think people oil is a joke.

The US oil production peaked decades ago and when Hubbard predicted it.

C·OCTAVIVS·C·F
07-05-2007, 09:59 PM
Burning petroleum was not the first way that humans have generated power, and it is certainly not the last.

What, do you think that when there is no more oil, we're going to sit next to our cars and say "****, how am I going to drive this thing?"

Or do you think we're going to say "I know, I'll find a newer, better way to drive it!" It's why the major car companies have working hydrogen cell prototypes....

When it's all criticism and no constructive alternatives/advice, it's not very helpful to anybody.

GromGrad
07-05-2007, 10:12 PM
Burning petroleum was not the first way that humans have generated power, and it is certainly not the last.

What, do you think that when there is no more oil, we're going to sit next to our cars and say "****, how am I going to drive this thing?"

Or do you think we're going to say "I know, I'll find a newer, better way to drive it!" It's why the major car companies have working hydrogen cell prototypes....

When it's all criticism and no constructive alternatives/advice, it's not very helpful to anybody.

That's not what it's all about. Everyone has long accepted the fact that we wont be using gasoline in the future for transportation but what no one flaks about is what the hell are we going to do about plastics. You need petroleum to make plastics. With out plastics there is no modern society. Its everything and everywhere. You can say conserve and recycle all you want but with the population exponentially rising what are we going to do when the population rises to 20 billion which it will before you can say "oh****!"

Kilgor
07-05-2007, 10:47 PM
Burning petroleum was not the first way that humans have generated power, and it is certainly not the last.

What, do you think that when there is no more oil, we're going to sit next to our cars and say "****, how am I going to drive this thing?"

Or do you think we're going to say "I know, I'll find a newer, better way to drive it!" It's why the major car companies have working hydrogen cell prototypes....

When it's all criticism and no constructive alternatives/advice, it's not very helpful to anybody.

Peak Oil is about the end of CHEAP oil.

Conventional oil will never run out, there will always be small amounts left, however it will become more and more expensive to gather.

The world economy demands and desperately needs cheap oil to function correctly. When oil prices makes transport, production and ultimately consumerism expensive then we are in serious trouble.

I dont know why its a hard topic for people to grasp.

weizen
07-06-2007, 11:09 AM
That's not what it's all about. Everyone has long accepted the fact that we wont be using gasoline in the future for transportation but what no one flaks about is what the hell are we going to do about plastics. You need petroleum to make plastics. With out plastics there is no modern society. Its everything and everywhere. You can say conserve and recycle all you want but with the population exponentially rising what are we going to do when the population rises to 20 billion which it will before you can say "oh****!"

Considering the current situation and that oil can be used to create many other things than fuel, it does seem a bit wasteful just to burn it. However limited oil resources do not automatically mean there will be no plastics or certain fuels in the future. You can make any plastic or fuel you want through the Fischer Tropsch process. For that you need a carbon source like coal or natural biomass. Obviously this process is a lot more expensive than simply exploiting oil. However when not or only barley taxed is a competetive choice.

And a word of advice:
There are some people here who are what I would call intentionally ignorant. These people will argue for days that benzene is a harmless substance. Facts which have been evolved through the scientific process are ignored because a page on Yahoo GeoCities says something different. Don't waste too much of your time with them. ;)

annihilation
07-06-2007, 12:28 PM
Why are we buying oil? Don't we have rigs in Iraq to take it from. Seems everyone else is cutting a piece of the top, might as well us.

Gfunk
07-06-2007, 02:35 PM
I'm just friggin' sick of our predisposition to generate crisis after crisis. I want the cold war back, so we can just worry about being nuked and forget about everything else. Now we have a climate hysteria lobby, an energy hysteria lobby, a terrorism hysteria lobby, and others for the environment, illegal immigration, asteroid impact, tsunami, super-caldera eruption, bird flu, all-conquering China, and erectile dysfunction (note, in case of priapism - an erection lasting more than 4 hours, consult your doctor). It's as if we need something to be worried about.

quoted for emphasis

Gfunk
07-06-2007, 02:41 PM
Burning petroleum was not the first way that humans have generated power, and it is certainly not the last.

What, do you think that when there is no more oil, we're going to sit next to our cars and say "****, how am I going to drive this thing?"

Or do you think we're going to say "I know, I'll find a newer, better way to drive it!" It's why the major car companies have working hydrogen cell prototypes....

When it's all criticism and no constructive alternatives/advice, it's not very helpful to anybody.

American innovation is our only hope

C·OCTAVIVS·C·F
07-06-2007, 07:04 PM
Have humans used plastic since the dawn of time as well?

If we can find an alternative way to fuel our cars, we can find an alternative way to wrap candy bars or manufacture toys. You obviously didn't put much thought into your response, did you?

As fuel prices go up, and the cost of the end products go up, there will be more incentive for people to come up with better, cheaper alternatives. People tend to obey their wallets. Instead of chanting about how horrible it is going to be, why don't you go find some venture capital and start a hydrogen distribution method? You could even work together with the car companies so that by the time you are ready to distribute, there are cars available to use your fuel.

Sheesh.

GromGrad
07-06-2007, 08:48 PM
Considering the current situation and that oil can be used to create many other things than fuel, it does seem a bit wasteful just to burn it. However limited oil resources do not automatically mean there will be no plastics or certain fuels in the future. You can make any plastic or fuel you want through the Fischer Tropsch process. For that you need a carbon source like coal or natural biomass. Obviously this process is a lot more expensive than simply exploiting oil. However when not or only barley taxed is a competetive choice.

And a word of advice:
There are some people here who are what I would call intentionally ignorant. These people will argue for days that benzene is a harmless substance. Facts which have been evolved through the scientific process are ignored because a page on Yahoo GeoCities says something different. Don't waste too much of your time with them. ;)

Trust me i try not to pay that much attention but somethings are so in your face stupid and wrong it just appalling. As for the FT process, it is like sticking your finger in a crack in a damn. The cheapest way to utilize it is through natural gas and with that there is the same scarcity problem as with petroleum. Also it is beyond expensive. It's not cost effective for even a small country let alone the 20 billion people that will be on this planet in 20-30 years. Not for lubricants and plastics and waxes and fuel. WE desperately need to stop using petroleum to power or vehicles so we can use it for absolute necessities.

GromGrad
07-06-2007, 08:59 PM
Have humans used plastic since the dawn of time as well?

If we can find an alternative way to fuel our cars, we can find an alternative way to wrap candy bars or manufacture toys. You obviously didn't put much thought into your response, did you?

As fuel prices go up, and the cost of the end products go up, there will be more incentive for people to come up with better, cheaper alternatives. People tend to obey their wallets. Instead of chanting about how horrible it is going to be, why don't you go find some venture capital and start a hydrogen distribution method? You could even work together with the car companies so that by the time you are ready to distribute, there are cars available to use your fuel.

Sheesh.

Humans lived with out plastics before but it doesn't mean I want to go back to those dark ages my self or have my kids live in a world where the simplest and most important things we take for granted don't exsist. Look around man. EVERYTHING is plastic or made with plastic or made with oil dishwashing liquids, paint, hand lotion, panty hose,eyeglasses, movie film, vitamin capsules, boats, curtains, toilet seats, ballpoint pens, transparent tape, contact lenses, glue, tires, the majority of medical equipment. Look at your car, look at your computer. Sure we can substitute some of the materials but for how much and for how many people?

As for your plan for a hydrogen distribution method. Tell me, how much capital do you think i will need to set up a distribution network, and counter the bribes companies pay to the government and car manufacturers to keep us addicted to petroleum? I am pretty well off these days but i would have to be Bill gates to taken on the oil industry and even then the odds would be poor.