M1 carabine, a bullpup upgrade.

[IDF_TANKER]

This one's kind of interesting. It's another Israeli offering. Basically, it's classic M1 Carbine (http://www.fulton-armory.com/MCarbRifles.htm) meets Tavor-2 subcarbine (http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/tavor/tar2.htm). At least that's how it looks. The HEZI SM-1 PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) (http://www.walther.ru/Pages/gun028.htm) is chambered for the .30 Carbine (7.62x33mm) round which was utilized to mixed effect by troopers in WWII with their M1 Carbines. The HEZI SM-1 PDW is...

manufactured and marketed by Advanced Combat Systems (ACS) Ltd. (http://www.advancedcombat.com/)The full article is here (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=401)

http://www.advancedcombat.com/images1/sm-1300.png

The manufacturer site:
http://www.advancedcombat.com/military/sm1.html

[edit]
More pictures:

http://www.defence.co.kr/bbs/data/smallarms1/1-1-1-1_hezi2.jpg

http://www.securityarms.com/cgi-local/protect.pl?File=2800/2800pics/2803.jpg

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Groza/bullpups/hezi1.jpg

[wicked_hind]

Looks nice, but I'd still prefer the old school look any day.
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Auto-Rifles/M-1_Carbine.jpg

[KillerBD]

It looks pretty cool.

[BillySing]

Pity the .30 M1 Carbine is as weak as dishwater.

[SMGLee]

Pity the .30 M1 Carbine is as weak as dishwater.


I agree, but i just wouldn't want to be shot by one... :)

[IDF_TANKER]

Pity the .30 M1 Carbine is as weak as dishwater.

From the article:

Remember, since the .30 Carbine round was an FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) round per military requirement, over-penetration and lack of stopping power came with the territory. However, now, since the HEZI SM-1 PDW is designed primarily as an LE SWAT/patrol weapon, modern hollowpoint bullet technology should solve both of the afforementioned deficiencies. Updated .30 Carbine (7.62x33mm) ammo should offer performance equal to or greater than modern .357 magnum ammo.

From the manufacturer site:

The .30-caliber bullet is more powerful than a .357 Magnum, yet minimizes ricochets and danger to bystanders.

[Jarhead]

Looks nice, but I'd still prefer the old school look any day.
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Auto-Rifles/M-1_Carbine.jpg
Indeed the old school M1a1 looks just better

[Hollis]

Looks nice, but I'd still prefer the old school look any day.
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Auto-Rifles/M-1_Carbine.jpg


Top one, has a interesting sling configuration. GI slings are held on to the rear, by the oiler, missing in the above picture.

[BillySing]

The .30 M-1 carbine just as powerful as the .357 Magnum..........

It can throw a lighter bullet at higher velocity, but it can't hold a candle to the .357 magnum.

You could probably get a solid 1600 FPS performance from the .30 M-1 carbine with it's heaviest bullet, a 125 grain.

The .357 magnum, however, can use a 200 grain projectile at 1,335 fps, and it's 125 grain can produce 1,700 fps with a heavy load.

The .30 M-1 carbine can throw a 125 grainer a little bit faster for a bit further, though the difference in projectile construction is quite substantial. These days manufacturers try and use speed as a substitute for bullet weight, and I c an tell you that speed counts for zilch when your trying to stop something. I know that the geriatric .45-70 can trump the zippy little .223 family easily when it comes to slowing something down.

I think the company is slightly disillusioned as to how good the .30 M-1 carbine is.

[Hollis]

Billy, if they are selling to the civilian sector, then it is all moot. The military decided long ago that it was a weapon for 2nd Lt. In case the 2nd Lt shoot someone they would survive, that someone would probably be his own people. J/K. Winter time during the Korea War demonstrated how ineffective the round was.

[IDF_TANKER]

The .30 M-1 carbine just as powerful as the .357 Magnum..........

It can throw a lighter bullet at higher velocity, but it can't hold a candle to the .357 magnum.

You could probably get a solid 1600 FPS performance from the .30 M-1 carbine with it's heaviest bullet, a 125 grain.

The .357 magnum, however, can use a 200 grain projectile at 1,335 fps, and it's 125 grain can produce 1,700 fps with a heavy load.

The .30 M-1 carbine can throw a 125 grainer a little bit faster for a bit further, though the difference in projectile construction is quite substantial. These days manufacturers try and use speed as a substitute for bullet weight, and I c an tell you that speed counts for zilch when your trying to stop something. I know that the geriatric .45-70 can trump the zippy little .223 family easily when it comes to slowing something down.

I think the company is slightly disillusioned as to how good the .30 M-1 carbine is.
You mean the contrary - it has illusions?:)

[BillySing]

You mean the contrary - it has illusions?:)

D'oh!

I'll fix it, if you fix the thread title.

Carbine, not carabine.

[IDF_TANKER]

D'oh!

I'll fix it, if you fix the thread title.

Carbine, not carabine.
I can't!:)

[BillySing]

Billy, if they are selling to the civilian sector, then it is all moot. The military decided long ago that it was a weapon for 2nd Lt. In case the 2nd Lt shoot someone they would survive, that someone would probably be his own people. J/K. Winter time during the Korea War demonstrated how ineffective the round was.

True.

As for the manufacturer, they should retract that irritatingly false statement, or at least reword it.

[Durandal]

This has been around for several years now.

Been discussed on this this forum as well.

That said, Israel has a HUGE stock pile of .30 carbine, hence the need to find a use for it.

Everyone can bitch about the .30 round all they want, but its perfect for its role. A rear echelon carbine to replace the 1911. The weapon is accurate and will kill someone.

The "winter in korea" while having some ruth to it is mainly blown out of proportion.

Plenty of Germans died from the round and I would wager some Japanese did too.

[Hollis]

. A rear echelon carbine to replace the 1911. The weapon is accurate and will kill someone.



Yes, I agree much better than a pistol, great for RE people.

I have two... I don't know why. I would not shoot a deer with one.

[BillySing]

This has been around for several years now.

Been discussed on this this forum as well.

That said, Israel has a HUGE stock pile of .30 carbine, hence the need to find a use for it.

Everyone can bitch about the .30 round all they want, but its perfect for its role. A rear echelon carbine to replace the 1911. The weapon is accurate and will kill someone.

The "winter in korea" while having some ruth to it is mainly blown out of proportion.

Plenty of Germans died from the round and I would wager some Japanese did too.

My quarrel is not with the venerable .30 M1 carbine, but with the manufacturer's saying that it's equal with the .357 magnum.

I know that's it not true, as even my own hand loads failed to convincingly stop red kangaroo at 50 metres. No such problem with the .357 magnum.

[kamarian]

i know a manufacturer redid some, or made from new a vesion of the M1 but in 45 magnum. How would that go compared with the .30?

[deadtired]

Yes, I agree much better than a pistol, great for RE people.

I have two... I don't know why. I would not shoot a deer with one.

I'd be happy to help you with that problem (the "I have two" part, not the "don't know why" part). :)

[LRPV]

If Israel has a stockpile to dispose of to a commercial venture, perhaps the calibre could be wild-catted, ie neck -down the straight-wall .30 caseto about .25 calibre. Higher velocity and the only part to change is the barrel. Just a thought.

[Andrew116]

Wow that things pretty sexy, though I'd like to see it in a bigger caliber......12.7mm (50cal)? lol

[Durandal]

If Israel has a stockpile to dispose of to a commercial venture, perhaps the calibre could be wild-catted, ie neck -down the straight-wall .30 caseto about .25 calibre. Higher velocity and the only part to change is the barrel. Just a thought.

A complete waste of time.

[OMON]

looks abit like the famas

[tango44]

Looks nice, but I'd still prefer the old school look any day.
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Auto-Rifles/M-1_Carbine.jpg


+1000 ON THE OLD SCHOOL, 100% AN AMERICAN CLASSIC NOT ISRAELI!

[IDF_TANKER]

+1000 ON THE OLD SCHOOL, 100% AN AMERICAN CLASSIC NOT ISRAELI!

Take it easy, man, this is only an upgrade kit, much like the plastic kits they make in US for M14 for example...
Kudos to you for the patriotic spirit though.

[alex kendall]

Hmmm...looks Like Basic Riot Gear 2 Me. :).

[Hollis]

+1000 ON THE OLD SCHOOL, 100% AN AMERICAN CLASSIC NOT ISRAELI!


It's cool dude, Israel hae been having a problem with getting less than lethal weapons, this should do......




rofl

[BillySing]

It's cool dude, Israel hae been having a problem with getting less than lethal weapons, this should do......




rofl

hahaha....... classic. :-D

[Laconian]

I know the .30 carbine has a bad (horrible?) rep as a man-killer, however I've talked with several WWII and Korea vets, that liked it for its weight and their ability to carry more mags for less weight than their Garands.

My only experience with the round came when one of my troops got a hold of an Iver Johnson model and fired one down the entrance road to Ft. Polk one night while he was all liquored up. At a distance of about 75 yards, the round penetrated the trunk of a '74 Buick, a filled duffle bag in the trunk, the back seat, front seat and shoulder of a girl in the passenger side. It did very little damage to the girl, but it was pretty impressive for what I'd heard was an anemic round.

I've always wanted a carbine. They were always fairly inexpensive, but now they are overpriced.

[Hollis]

They were always fairly inexpensive, but now they are overpriced.


A lot of Old Military rifles are going in that direction. Amazing to see some of increases in the last 4 years.

Later will just cost you more.

[bas]

Later will just cost you more.

Words of wisdom that we'd all be smart to pay heed to.

[LRPV]

A complete waste of time.

Thankyou for your well qualified input. I'll bow to your superior technical knowledge and commercial production expertise and not mention salient facts that such projects have been successful in the past.

[bas]

Thankyou for your well qualified input. I'll bow to your superior technical knowledge and commercial production expertise and not mention salient facts that such projects have been successful in the past.

Excuse my ignorance, but can you please point out a commercially successful conversion of a collectable military surplus rifle to a wildcat calibre?

[LRPV]

Excuse my ignorance, but can you please point out a commercially successful conversion of a collectable military surplus rifle to a wildcat calibre?

Bas, Ok, my bad on the language. Delete wildcat, was a poor choice of word. Insert 're-chamber or re-barrel'.

Since you expanded away from M1 carbines I'll run with a favourite. In Australia Martini Cadets in .310 were common and cheap. The ammo was a bit fly-blown and eventually difficult to obtain. Quite a number of these were re-barrelled to .22 Hornet.

[California Joe]

That kit is butt ugly. Like something that knucklehead Jabroni would design. The M1 Carbine (Always capitalized) has much style in original configuration. I want one.

[bas]

Bas, Ok, my bad on the language. Delete wildcat, was a poor choice of word. Insert 're-chamber or re-barrel'.

Since you expanded away from M1 carbines I'll run with a favourite. In Australia Martini Cadets in .310 were common and cheap. The ammo was a bit fly-blown and eventually difficult to obtain. Quite a number of these were re-barrelled to .22 Hornet.

However .22 Hornet is not a "wildcat" like a necked down 7.62x33 would be, it is an established popular calibre (if somewhat superceeded now).

Also the Martini action is very easy to re-barrel, a semi-auto is not. You would need to change the gas port design so that it operates with the new calibre and modify the magazine and feed ramp (which is the area most suseptable in a semi-auto) to accomodate the new round.

[LRPV]

However .22 Hornet is not a "wildcat" like a necked down 7.62x33 would be, it is an established popular calibre (if somewhat superceeded now).

Also the Martini action is very easy to re-barrel, a semi-auto is not. You would need to change the gas port design so that it operates with the new calibre and modify the magazine and feed ramp (which is the area most suseptable in a semi-auto) to accomodate the new round.

Bas, You already picked me up on the use of wildcat. Fair call.

The rest is not so accurate. There is no need to change the magazine, ejection port etc. Attend to the suggestion, which is a calibre using the .30 M! case.

Let's go elsewhere for a common example. You can take your .40 S&W Glock and use a .357 SIG barrel. Same mag etc. Thats the point I was attempting, if unclearly to make on the carbine.

[Kocur]

A complete waste of time.


Actually 7,62mm x 33 was necked down to smaller caliber to create commercial cartridge. The author of the conversion back in the 1960s was Melvin Johnsnon himself. The cartridge was 5.7mm Johhnson aka 5.7mm Spitfire.click (http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/wmmj57mm.html)

[AnUbIs]

http://ultimak.com/gallery/30CarbAimpoint3.jpg

All you need is a top hanguard RIS mount and your good to go, no need to make a another gun

[Pook2]

http://ultimak.com/gallery/30CarbAimpoint3.jpg

All you need is a top hanguard RIS mount and your good to go, no need to make a wholenother gun

If that was easily removable I might actually consider buying one for my Carbine. It would however be utterly useless since my Carbine's accuracy is piss poor at anything over 50 meters.

[tango44]

http://ultimak.com/gallery/30CarbAimpoint3.jpg

All you need is a top hanguard RIS mount and your good to go, no need to make a another gun


Ohhh man this is what I been looking for!!!!!
Where did you get it?
Thanks.

[gilgoul]

Yet another atempt by IWS, or whatever we should call it, to capitalize on the 30 short and it's own designs (remember the galil like 30 short Carbine used for a short while by Israeli police?).
The general idea is that the 30 short would be less dangerous than a 223 cal. for bystanders and poorly trained security guards.
I work now everyday with people carrying the old M1 Carbine, and they are all very happy with it, as long as it doesn't get in anything like sand or fine dust.

[sct1886]

This has been around for several years now.

Been discussed on this this forum as well.

That said, Israel has a HUGE stock pile of .30 carbine, hence the need to find a use for it.

Everyone can bitch about the .30 round all they want, but its perfect for its role. A rear echelon carbine to replace the 1911. The weapon is accurate and will kill someone.

The "winter in korea" while having some ruth to it is mainly blown out of proportion.

Plenty of Germans died from the round and I would wager some Japanese did too.

My uncle shot a Japanese soldier charging with a fixed bayonet seven times. His comrade shot him once with a M1 Garand 30 06, he dropped immediately. He busted the worthless POS on a rock and grabbed a real weapon an M1. My brother shot a deer five times, no apparrent effect. It is a no brainer that shot placement is the very important. The carbine is an anemic round that is too stable and with too little shock trauma. That being said my father loved the full auto M2 carbine. It was light and multiple hits got the job done on more than one occassion. I would love to have one as a collectible and for that only.

[AnUbIs]

Ohhh man this is what I been looking for!!!!!
Where did you get it?
Thanks.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

click on m1 carbine pages to the left and carbine parts & etc

[BillySing]

Actually 7,62mm x 33 was necked down to smaller caliber to create commercial cartridge. The author of the conversion back in the 1960s was Melvin Johnsnon himself. The cartridge was 5.7mm Johhnson aka 5.7mm Spitfire.click (http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/wmmj57mm.html)

That wasn't the only attempt to turn the M1 carbine into something with a little more horsepower.


The 375/38-40 Rimless. The 357/38-40 rimless was developed as a cartridge for use in conversions of the US M1 carbine. It is, in effect, a rimless 38-40 winchester. It originated sometime in the 1960's by George Heubnar. There is also a very similar wildcat known as the .357 Shannon. Both cartridges are made by shortening and necking down .30-06 brass, and both have practically the same ballistics.

The M-1 carbine has been the object of a number of caliber conversions aimed at improving its usefulness as a hunting rifle for either varmint or big game. The 30 Carbine cartridge in itself is not a particularly a good varmint cartridge and is under-powered on deer sized animals. The 357/38-40 is an effort to turn the handy M-1 carbine into a legal deer rifle, something it does fairly well. The Cartridge is adequate for deer or black bear at short ranges. It would probably do almost as well as th 44 magnum fired in a rifle. Case capacity is slightly less than the 38-40.

180 grain behind 22 grains of 2400 with a MV of 1855 fps. (ME: 1380)
200 grain behind 20 grains of 2400 with a MV of 1800 fps. (ME: 1510)



Extracted from Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition, 1989.

[kamarian]

My uncle shot a Japanese soldier charging with a fixed bayonet seven times. His comrade shot him once with a M1 Garand 30 06, he dropped immediately. He busted the worthless POS on a rock and grabbed a real weapon an M1. My brother shot a deer five times, no apparrent effect. It is a no brainer that shot placement is the very important. The carbine is an anemic round that is too stable and with too little shock trauma. That being said my father loved the full auto M2 carbine. It was light and multiple hits got the job done on more than one occassion. I would love to have one as a collectible and for that only.

I have read some MACV-SOG people would carry cut down M-2's with the 30 rnd mags as a back up type weapon
. The stock was cut down into a pistol grip type, and the barrel cut off at the wooden forestock

[FROGFOOT-MKDN]

In that case, round precision placement at over 30 meters would be fair to poor.

[Laconian]

I have read some MACV-SOG people would carry cut down M-2's with the 30 rnd mags as a back up type weapon
. The stock was cut down into a pistol grip type, and the barrel cut off at the wooden forestock

The Universal "Enforcer" I know a couple of cops that carried them as "back-up" guns in the '60s. We have one in our vault, as soon as it gets certified we are gonna play - erm- test fire, yeah that's it, test fire it.

[DoctorCheney223]

Here is a link to some myths about the M1 Carbine and frozen clothes (like in the Korean theater).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm


thanks,
Ron

[Hollis]

Here is a link to some myths about the M1 Carbine and frozen clothes (like in the Korean theater).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm


thanks,
Ron


Ron, a towel? The Chinese wore padded clothing, it was thick. I know people who were in Korea, they don't say it was a myth. I think the guys intent in this article is OK, but he really was way off on clothing.

H.

BTW it does not rain in sub zero temps.

[DoctorCheney223]

Ron, a towel? The Chinese wore padded clothing, it was thick. I know people who were in Korea, they don't say it was a myth. I think the guys intent in this article is OK, but he really was way off on clothing.

H.

BTW it does not rain in sub zero temps.

If you search through his website you will see other .30 Carbine experiments where it went through thick jackets as well. I have busted up many bricks with my Carbine and I would have to agree with Old Painless. If they say the bullets didn't penetrate, they probably missed.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8_3.htm

The bullet went through several inches of clothes, a water jug, 4 layers of wood and then blew a hole in some bricks.

thanks,
Ron

[Hollis]

If you search through his website you will see other .30 Carbine experiments where it went through thick jackets as well. I have busted up many bricks with my Carbine and I would have to agree with Old Painless. If they say the bullets didn't penetrate, they probably missed.

EDIT:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8_3.htm

The bullet went through several inches of clothes, a water jug, 4 layers of wood and then blew a hole in some bricks.

thanks,
Ron


What ranges?

What do you think the ranges where in Korea.

Tell you what I will ask some guys who were there. 30 feet is one thing, 100 Yards another 200 Yards something else. I had a Gunny who had 9 confirms with a E-Tool. We really don't know how many Chinese where KIAed, but it was more that reported.

BTW, have you ever been in a position that was overrunned? Worse feeling in life is when you can not kill them fast enough.

Now ask yourself, why the Carbine was assigned to Rear folks, and discarded eventually. Simply it did not have killing power.