Global warming dilema

[chuckster]

One thing bothers me about the global warming phonomena. We'll know in about 20 years if Man is really the cause or not. That will give scientists time to come up with a consensus about what's causing it and more importent, if the warming is due to natural variations in the Sun's output it will give time for the expected cooling trend to begin. It strikes me as odd when I see advertisements that say something like 'turn to this website to find out how YOU CAN STOP GLOBAL WARMING', like if you drive a hybrid car, install a windmill in your front yard, and switch to mini floriscent bulbs you can control the temperature of the Earth when no one can say for sure even if Man is the cause of global warming. Of course, if we take no measures and in 20 years we discover it is indeed due entirely to Man's production of greenhouse gasses then we will have been putting these gasses into the atmosphere for 20 years without doing anythng about it. Are we kind of d***ed if we do and d***ed if we dont?

[vinny_121_ND]

true, as always, we'd rather use caution than rashly use greenhouse gas and consume energy.

I used to believe carbon dioxide was the sole cause of rising temperatures and crazy weather, but after studying climate change, and reading scientific papers on it, I now don't believe it. It's all politics to gain votes, and suppress the productivity of one's nation. However, if you look at China, their consequences for emitting so much greenhouse gases has led them to an environmental crisis where everybody gets respiratory illnesses.

the only thing constant about climate change is Change.

[Merfeller]

I don't know what the dilema is - global warming is an industry and its making a lot of people a lot of money. Add to that a panicked population that swallows it hook, line, and sinker and it practically becomes a religion. I mean, the whole carbon credits buying scheme alone is sheer genius. I wish I could get in on that. It's one of the greatest grifts I've ever heard of. Ponzi would be proud.

[TheSteve]

I haven't read volumes on the Global Warming topic, but I gotta say, there must be a consequence for us dumping what we do into the Atmosphere. So I think we should curb emissions anyway. I don't think the whole Global warming thing is bull**** though.

And also, a Country can still be productive and not have huge emissions. Its all about setting aside money/resources to creating newer, better, safer, and more advance technologies that can limit the pollution. Maybe expansion will be limited, but only temporarily. I hate people who say if we save the environment the economy will go down the drain, thats just a bunch of crap.

[schwarz]

Didnt you guys hear. Its global cooling now.

Geez get with the program.

[Weasel]

true, as always, we'd rather use caution than rashly use greenhouse gas and consume energy.

I used to believe carbon dioxide was the sole cause of rising temperatures and crazy weather, but after studying climate change, and reading scientific papers on it, I now don't believe it. It's all politics to gain votes, and suppress the productivity of one's nation. However, if you look at China, their consequences for emitting so much greenhouse gases has led them to an environmental crisis where everybody gets respiratory illnesses.

the only thing constant about climate change is Change.

The eco wave is pushing our economy enormously at the moment.

[GromGrad]

The consensus happened years ago in the scientific community get with the program. It's **** like this that makes us geologists cringe when we talk to the general public. I had an idiot next to me on a plane one time arguing with me about global warming and evolution. He pissed me off so bad that i invited him to come with me the next day to one of my favorite places for fossils. This place has a sequence of over a hundred million years worth of soft shale where the fossils are very abundant and well preserved and i was able to show him species changing through time. Every inch is a few million years and you can actually see one species change into another. It blew his mind, he didn't believe it until he actually saw it and now his outlook is different. The point of this little story is I can't take everyone out to do this so we keep getting idiotic posts like this. People who don't believe in global warming are either conflicted because of their pay check or just don't have the facts. Global warming isn't that hard of a concept. You burn things that wouldn't normally be burned by the earth, you create atmospheric changes. Simple as that. The earth is very very very sensitive group of systems. You change one thing the others change with it. A few degree rise in the global temperature and the ice caps melt, the ocean rises 7 meters and the global currents stop going where they going now. England stops being warm and turns into Greenland and so on and so forth. Global warming isn't complicated it's the effects of global warming that are complicated.

[vinny_121_ND]

The eco wave is pushing our economy enormously at the moment.

well, if you look at the canadian model, what they're trying to do is limit carbon emissions, but try and not damage the economy. Jack Layton, Dr. David suzuki went nuts saying that's not enough. They wanted even less carbon emissions, almost literally to the point where all factories have to go overseas, except they didn't say that explicitly to the cameras.

All the opposition parties have been quite silent on what they really want our environment minister to do, except complain like babies that it's not good enough.

gromgrad, you got it right based on your studies from geology. thing is, I would go crazy if I had to look at fossils while doing a phd. The guy I knew was looking at a zillion small, 2cm fossils that all looked the same, and I thought he'd go crazy by the time he finished his phd.

[Pook2]

Human CO2 emissions is less than 1 percent of total CO2 emissions from the earth into the atmosphere. Global warming and cooling is caused by the sun, end of story.

The Great Global Warming swindle (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=The+great+global+warming+swindle)

[IraGlacialis]

Even if humans are not the cause of global warming, we should still go towards more evironmentaly-friendly and renewable forms of energy and industry. There is a whole lot worse that comes out of a fossil fuel smokestack than just CO2. Plus, while there is hype of global warming, htere is other things that are being done to the environment that has been sidelined. Besides, be it in 20 or 20000 years, the accessible stores will run out.

On the subject of global warming itself, who is to say it will be completely bad? Sure sea levels will rise. Yet humans are ingenious; the cities will probably be built to adapt to the conditions (every coastal city like Venice would be interesting). Plus it is predicted that places such as the Sahara will start gaining more moisture through a shifted current. Oh, and the temp around Europe will most likely drop. As for nature, it will adapt as always.
Besides, if we kill ourselves off through our own stupidity (whether we pollute this planet into an inhospitable mess or just nuke ourselves to Kingdom Come), the world will just heal itself like it did after the Permian and KT events.

[11 Bravo]

global bologna......it's a communist chinese conspiracy to take out the free world through walmart !. Can't you fools see where being bought out by chink-mart via walmart and the eco-disaster is part of their masterplan of world domination. Silly we are -chopsticks made form forrests at the sake of the forrests and we are done for !. Goracle & crew on the shining mao path... man I'm telling you it's one big hoodwink baby !.

[IraGlacialis]

What the hell are you talking about??

[RECON DOC]

Everybody knows that the Sun is responsible for the warming trend, not some tractor in Boise.

My solution: Blow up the Sun....or build a giant umbrella.

[shocker1]

Plant a tree, stop cattle flatulence!

[IraGlacialis]

My solution: Blow up the Sun....
Suncrusher FTW woot
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/8e/Sun_Crusher-NEGWT.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/0/01/SunCrusher_egvv.jpg/581px-SunCrusher_egvv.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/d/d3/Sccutaway.jpg/329px-Sccutaway.jpg

[Weasel]

Human CO2 emissions is less than 1 percent of total CO2 emissions from the earth into the atmosphere. Global warming and cooling is caused by the sun, end of story.

The Great Global Warming swindle (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=The+great+global+warming+swindle)

And the sneaky sun increased her activity when mankind started industrialisation.

[LaoSexMachine]

global bologna......it's a communist chinese conspiracy to take out the free world through walmart !. Can't you fools see where being bought out by chink-mart via walmart and the eco-disaster is part of their masterplan of world domination. Silly we are -chopsticks made form forrests at the sake of the forrests and we are done for !. Goracle & crew on the shining mao path... man I'm telling you it's one big hoodwink baby !.

Word. Those chinks and thier plans. We know. Vigilance.

[Kaapeli]

Human CO2 emissions is less than 1 percent of total CO2 emissions from the earth into the atmosphere. Global warming and cooling is caused by the sun, end of story.

Orly?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr-2.png

You know what happens when you add 1% of extra CO2 to the atmosphere every year? In 100 years it has become a 100% increase to the starting value.

[GromGrad]

Kaapeli you beat me to it. Good job mate.


The idiocy in this thread is mind boggling.

[C·OCTAVIVS·C·F]

The sneaking thing about those graphs is that the right side doesn't start at 0! According to that graph, the previous peak was ~300, and some earlier peaks may have been higher. Right now it looks to be at 375.

So, the industrial revolution has accounted for a 25% rise in CO2 levels.

Where do you get 100% from? Huh?


In 20 years from now we'll have a much more accurate picture of what's going on. Right now there's too much hype, and too much money, and the "scary disasters" aren't happening for centuries.

[Kaapeli]

The sneaking thing about those graphs is that the right side doesn't start at 0! According to that graph, the previous peak was ~300, and some earlier peaks may have been higher. Right now it looks to be at 375.

This planet has seen huge variance in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, there is no doubt about that (think snowball earth a billion of years ago). But what were are worried about is involuntarily screwing up the system too quickly and at the same time seriously damaging the ecosystem and our own lifes in the process.
Life will propably go on even if we turn this planet into a desert but it won't be the way we like it anymore.


So, the industrial revolution has accounted for a 25% rise in CO2 levels.

Where do you get 100% from? Huh?

That was just a hypothetical example (based on the previously claimed 1% of CO2 from human sources) of how even small amounts of excess can't built into something really significant in a relatively short amount of time.
A number like 1% might look small but it quickly adds up.


In 20 years from now we'll have a much more accurate picture of what's going on. Right now there's too much hype, and too much money, and the "scary disasters" aren't happening for centuries.

We'll see the situation worsen (global temperature rise) in the next 20 years no matter what we do now. We have absolutely no hope of recovering from this crisis anytime soon despite all the hype, money, charity concerts, enviromentalism etc. So don't worry, we aren't "accidentally" saving the world "for nothing". And to be honest there are much worser things to waste money on than trying to save the world by cutting pollution.

I just hope that after those 20 years of research and experience you and people like you will finally stop making excuses and try to do something about it. Promise?

[Mu-Meson]

Ha Ha! So the hockey stick graph has made its appearance. I'm surprised it took so long to get trotted out. I would recommend that you read about how the graph was created. It included dozens of different factors, and then weighted one factor a hundred times more than the rest! That graph is a slick piece of fabricated science.
There are hundreds of places that you can read about the scam that is the 'hockey stick graph'.

[mi35d]

I would be far less sceptical if many of the same organizations and voices that are shouting, "Global Warming!" weren't the same ones who were shouting, "Global Cooling!" in the early 1970's.

[weizen]

I can only support what the geologist GromGrad said. Global Warming is fact. Period.

If you want to seriously learn more about it, I recommend that you seek a large state or university library where you have (electronic) access to notable peer reviewed journals and decent literature.

Also using the "normal" internet for scientific research is highly unscientific because any fool can write what he wants to. Doing so at a university will result in an F. Peer reviewed journals are as the name implies checked by other scientists. The content is almost always pretty good.

Now if the method above is not practical for you and you rely on the internet, newspaper or tv, you must find out where the person works and what he does. Does the person work at a university? What has he published? (You can find this out very easily.) Or does the person have a B.A. and works for some think tank? Checking sources is the key here people!

Mu-Meson: Looking forward to your source from a notable peer reviewed journal. ;) (Don't bore me with some "link")
mi35d, C·OCTAVIVS·C·F, Pook2 : I think you will restate what you said after you have looked more into this issue.
Pook2: That movie is bollocks.

[Jobu]

Forget global warming, bird flu is the next big thing. Or was it West Nile virus?

[Mu-Meson]

I'll start believing it is a crisis, when the people who are telling me it is a crisis start acting like it is a crisis. Do Live Earth concerts do that? No.

[weizen]

I'll start believing it is a crisis, when the people who are telling me it is a crisis start acting like it is a crisis. Do Live Earth concerts do that? No.

I think you missed the point of my post.

[Kingswat]

That whole Live Earth concert was pathetic, especially when a few of the musicians were wearing anti war clothing. More proof global warming doesn't exist.

This was supposed to be the hottest summer in decades here, we've had 2 days above 30 degrees, the rest we are lucky if it hits 20.

[Rivers]

I would be far less sceptical if many of the same organizations and voices that are shouting, "Global Warming!" weren't the same ones who were shouting, "Global Cooling!" in the early 1970's.

Yes, because we haven't gotten anywhere since the 1970s. And if they just might be right, it won't really matter, will it? I like warm weather.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

There are three key elements here.

1. Is global warming actually happening?
2. If so, is man the reason for it?
3. Can anything be done to change it?

At best, we have partial consensus on one of these questions. But that won't stop us from fabricating a crisis in the absence of anything more immediate to worry about.

Every product, every service must be tied into something green, something to do with the environment. The local news here ran a clip about Gorapalooza over the weekend - "rock and rollers unite to save the planet". I had visions of Bruce Willis going to blow up the asteroid...but unfortunately they all lived through the weekend. Another thing I bet nobody noticed...lots of people made lots of money off the event, didn't they? Ching.

I often wonder to myself what humanity will be like in 50,000 years. I figure that by then we'll have ramped up medical technology to the point where it will be possible - barring any serious physical injury - to live for hundreds of years. This will lead inevitably to a culture of nearly mind-numbing fear. Imagine having the possibility of a life lasting hundreds of years - would you dare throw it all away to go roller skating? Or ride a motorcycle? Or do anything but sit in your climate controlled pod in complete comfort, assured of that long life? And my god what about the future? Nothing to do but worry about it. What about asteroid impact - that could happen at any moment! What about the yellowstone super-caldera - do something!

Nobody in developing nations gives a damn about global warming. They're too worried about their next meal, or not being shot. Only we preoccupied future pod-dwellers worry about this stuff. I don't mind the focus on environmental crap - hell I find nothing wrong with getting rich based on turning the planet green instead of brown. It's just that it's not without real-world consequences, and we should be careful where emotion based groupthink leads us.

[Douros81]

This is all a load of BS. I'm not going to listen to a bunch of millionaires tell me to live a ****ty life, and do with out, while they live high off the hog. They shoud give up their G-5 and fly on Southwest before I give up my F-150.
:)

****'em all

[valtrex]

Forget global warming, global cooling is our next problem:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=9e919563-e44b-4ca2-9706-8af9cf743c95
"Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us"

PS: Someone better inform mr Al Gore ;)

[weizen]

There are three key elements here.

1. Is global warming actually happening?
2. If so, is man the reason for it?
3. Can anything be done to change it?

At best, we have partial consensus on one of these questions.



I think you really need to re-read and think about what GromGrad and I wrote in this thread.

What I noticed is that you always think of actions mandatory to mitigate climate change as something cost intensive. This is clearly not the case. A government can jump start a renewable energy industry by passing legislation which allows anyone to feed energy into the electricity grid and earn money. Based on my (obsolete?) information this is not the case in the US due to lobbyism by certain companies. Here in Germany we have a new booming sector due to such legislation. Also a government could support research for new energy saving technologis such as LED.
Such measures cost little and have a positive impact.

[GromGrad]

I think you really need to re-read and think about what GromGrad and I wrote in this thread.

What I noticed is that you always think of actions mandatory to mitigate climate change as something cost intensive. This is clearly not the case. A government can jump start a renewable energy industry by passing legislation which allows anyone to feed energy into the electricity grid and earn money. Based on my (obsolete?) information this is not the case in the US due to lobbyism by certain companies. Here in Germany we have a new booming sector due to such legislation. Also a government could support research for new energy saving technologis such as LED.
Such measures cost little and have a positive impact.

This is a good point. There are a million great things we could be doing but our politicians are very much financially tied to keep the statis quo.

Global warming denial is a base characteristic of the over whelmed, on the defensive rightist. Iraq is going to ****, illegals are everywhere and nothing is being done, terrorism, gay marriage, etc etc. All these thorns in their sides all around but at least they can pound global warming because the average person knows more about their local sports team then about the world they live in, so they are easily swayed. In the end it's just more appealing and easier to gorge your self and not change. But superficial victories against combating global warming just hurts all of us in the end. Is bashing a cause championed by the left really worth the damage to the planet and humanity. To spite the bus driver you guys are buying the ticket and walking home. Who does it really hurt?

[chuckster]

Forget global warming, global cooling is our next problem:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=9e919563-e44b-4ca2-9706-8af9cf743c95
"Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us"

PS: Someone better inform mr Al Gore ;)

Forgive me for responding to my own thread, but you know what this reminds me of? You remember that episide of The Twilight Zone where the woman thinks the Earth suddenly begins moving closer and closer to the Sun and the planet is getting hotter and hotter untill everyone dies of heat stroke? Then she passes out and it is revealed that was is just a dream and the Earth is actually moving AWAY from the Sun and is actually getting colder and colder untill everyone freezes! Just thought I'd bring that up.