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TheStorm
07-08-2007, 07:46 PM
Leave Iraq and Brace for a Bigger Bloodbath

By Natan Sharansky
Sunday, July 8, 2007; B03

Iraqis call Ali Hassan al-Majeed "Chemical Ali," and few wept when the notorious former general received five death sentences last month for ordering the use of nerve agents against his government's Kurdish citizens in the late 1980s. His trial came as a reckoning and a reminder -- summoning up the horrors of Saddam Hussein's rule even as it underscored the way today's heated Iraq debates in Washington have left the key issue of human rights on the sidelines. People of goodwill can certainly disagree over how to handle Iraq, but human rights should be part of any responsible calculus. Unfortunately, some leaders continue to play down the gross violations in Iraq under Hussein's republic of fear and ignore the potential for a human rights catastrophe should the United States withdraw.

As the hideous violence in Iraq continues, it has become increasingly common to hear people argue that the world was better off with Hussein in power and (even more remarkably) that Iraqis were better off under his fist. In his final interview as U.N. secretary general, Kofi Annan acknowledged that Iraq "had a dictator who was brutal" but said that Iraqis under the Baathist dictatorship "had their streets, they could go out, their kids could go to school."

This line of argument began soon after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. By early 2004, some prominent political and intellectual leaders were arguing that women's rights, gay rights, health care and much else had suffered in post-Hussein Iraq.

Following in the footsteps of George Bernard Shaw, Walter Duranty and other Western liberals who served as willing dupes for Joseph Stalin, some members of the human rights community are whitewashing totalitarianism. A textbook example came last year from John Pace, who recently left his post as U.N. human rights chief in Iraq. "Under Saddam," he said, according to the Associated Press, "if you agreed to forgo your basic freedom of expression and thought, you were physically more or less OK."

The truth is that in totalitarian regimes, there are no human rights. Period. The media do not criticize the government. Parliaments do not check executive power. Courts do not uphold due process. And human rights groups don't file reports.

For most people, life under totalitarianism is slavery with no possibility of escape. That is why despite the carnage in Iraq, Iraqis are consistently less pessimistic about the present and more optimistic about the future of their country than Americans are. In a face-to-face national poll of 5,019 people conducted this spring by Opinion Research Business, a British market-research firm, only 27 percent of Iraqis said they believed that "that their country is actually in a state of civil war," and by nearly 2 to 1 (49 percent to 26 percent), the Iraqis surveyed said they preferred life under their new government to life under the old tyranny. That is why, at a time when many Americans are abandoning the vision of a democratic Iraq, most Iraqis still cling to the hope of a better future. They know that under Hussein, there was no hope.

By consistently ignoring the fundamental moral divide that separates societies in which people are slaves from societies in which people are free, some human rights groups undermine the very cause they claim to champion. Consider one 2005 Amnesty International report on Iraq. It notes that in the lawless climate of the first months after Hussein's overthrow, reports of kidnappings, rapes and killings of women and girls by criminal gangs rose. Iraqi officers at a police station in Baghdad said in June 2003 that the number of reported rapes "was substantially higher than before the war."

The implication was that human rights may not really be improving in post-Hussein Iraq. But the organization ignored the possibility that reports of rape at police stations may have increased for the simple reason that under Hussein it was the regime -- which includes the police -- that was doing the raping. When Hussein's son Uday went on his legendary raping sprees, victims were not about to report the crime.

Of course, Hussein's removal has created a host of difficult strategic challenges, and numerous human rights atrocities have been committed since his ouster. But let us be under no illusion of what life under Hussein was like. He was a mass murderer who tortured children in front of their parents, gassed Kurds, slaughtered Shiites, started two wars with his neighbors and launched Scud missiles into downtown Riyadh and Tel Aviv. The price for the stability that Hussein supposedly brought to the region was mass graves, hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq, and terrorism and war outside it. Difficult as the challenges are today -- with Iran and Syria trying to stymie democracy in Iraq, with al-Qaeda turning Iraq into the central battleground in its holy war of terrorism against the free world, and with sectarian militias bent on murder and mayhem -- there is still hope that tomorrow may be better.

No one can know for sure whether President Bush's "surge" of U.S. troops in Iraq will succeed. But those who believe that human rights should play a central role in international affairs should be doing everything in their power to maximize the chances that it will. For one of the consequences of failure could well be catastrophe.

A precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces could lead to a bloodbath that would make the current carnage pale by comparison. Without U.S. troops in place to quell some of the violence, Iranian-backed Shiite militias would dramatically increase their attacks on Sunnis; Sunni militias, backed by the Saudis or others, would retaliate in kind, drawing more and more of Iraq into a vicious cycle of violence. If Iraq descended into full-blown civil war, the chaos could trigger similar clashes throughout the region as Sunni-Shiite tensions spill across Iraq's borders. The death toll and the displacement of civilians could climb exponentially.

Perhaps the greatest irony of the political debate over Iraq is that many of Bush's critics, who accused his administration of going blindly to war without considering what would happen once Hussein's regime was toppled, now blindly support a policy of withdrawing from Iraq without considering what might follow.

In this respect, the debate over Iraq is beginning to look a lot like the debate about the Vietnam War in the 1960s and '70s. Then, too, the argument in the United States focused primarily on whether U.S. forces should pull out. But many who supported that withdrawal in the name of human rights did not foresee the calamity that followed, which included genocide in Cambodia, tens of thousands slaughtered in Vietnam by the North Vietnamese and the tragedy of hundreds of thousands of "boat people."

In the final analysis, U.S. leaders will pursue a course in Iraq that they believe best serves U.S. interests. My hope is that as they do, they will make the human rights dimension a central part of any decision. The consequences of not doing so might prove catastrophic to Iraqis, to regional peace and, ultimately, to U.S. security.

Natan.ISS@shalem.org.il

Natan Sharansky, a former Soviet dissident who was imprisoned for nine years in the gulag, is chairman of the Adelson Institute for Strategic Studies in Jerusalem.

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/06/AR2007070601994.html).

Conman
07-09-2007, 05:03 PM
No matter if it was right or wrong to begin the Iraqi conflict, I too agree that the the withdrawal from Iraq should not happen until there is at least some standard of stability on a national level. In my mind if we do withdrawal too soon the worst case scenario proposed in the article is spot on (and the probability of it happening is unacceptable high) We would see a war of a such scale and carnage as has not been seen since WWII
1. Civil war; Iraq broken in to 3 sides Sunni, Shia, Kurd
2. These three sides draw in the surrounding countries around them either through alliance or antagonization ie Saudi Arabia and other Sunni countries with the Sunnis
Iran with the Shias, Turkey and the Kurds start to duke it out in a big way (especially with the news that Turkey is massing troops along the border this is truly frightening)
3. Here we have a civil war that has broadened to a regional war and it could set off any number of other conflicts, Lebanon descends back into Civil War, Israel and the Palestinians heat things up big time)
4. The entire middle east is now in flames
5. While the UN will probably issue resolution after condemnation after resolution there is will be no teeth and grit to back it up.
6. On a world scale this conflict will send oil prices spiraling, if you thought 70 dollars a barrel was bad think 150-250 per, sending the world economy into a recession, maybe even a depression.

While this is indeed the worst case scenario, all things being equal it could happen. And the only thing stopping this horrific descent is the coalition troops on the ground

DB-ERAUPilot
07-09-2007, 05:14 PM
:roll: isn't this whole "if we leave it'll get worse" BS getting a little old now. The same people saying things will spiral out of control are the same idiots that said we'd be greeted as liberators, the war would pay for itself, WMD, they'll follow us hear, all have been proven as BS yet we continue to bleed ourselves dry(financially and literally) for a country that after four years of having their hand held is no closer today that being able to stand on its feet than it was when our chimp in chief claimed "mission accomplished". We're gonna leave Iraq people...deal with it, its gonna happen more likely sooner than later, we'll eventually declare "victory" and pull out. I get a laugh the most out of "they'll follow us here", yes cause we've got ALL the terrorist of the world so occupied in Iraq now that if we just left you'd see a bunch of sunni and shia insurgents hopping on planes and boats and start storming Washington DC, give me a ****ing break rofl

NuckmasterJ
07-09-2007, 05:37 PM
Leaving Iraq and the consequences. Well there is only one out come that is fairly clear to not come true and that is the Iraqi Government taking control of the country via the IP and IA.

What ever happens it means more blood, and most likely a split of religions.

It sure would be interesting if the politicians could be held responsible for the post withdrawal loss of life, seeing as it could be prevented by finishing the long and painful job which they started. I'm not talking about Bush here either, no matter what reasons he used to begin the war. I'm talking about the politicians who want collect as many votes as possible by abusing the anti war movement. They might actually have to think about the consequences of their actions for once. Scary.

Anything said in this post is my opinion only, and is also the opinion of a non-American citizen.

sinophile
07-09-2007, 06:43 PM
Does anyone think it will not take decades of fighting among Sunni, Shia and Kurd before there is stability in what will once have been called Iraq? Regardless of US presence this will be the case.

Think Italy circa 1400's if you want a model for how Iraq is going to devolve into a cyclic state of war and tentative peace among its factions.

The question is to what extent does the US influence the division of the country into various ethnic enclaves? How will the US and its allies thwart the attempts of various patrons (Iran) from becoming Iraq's hegemon? Will the Saudi's find a way to exert control over Iraqi oil resources? The Iranians perhaps? Syria? Turkey?

This is why at the end of the day I think this was by design. I think Cheney, Hadley and Rice would have accepted a democratic Iraq as an outcome, but the decisions made point to a degree of incompetence so vast one has to at least consider the possibility of intelligent design in this outcome.

That nobody in the equation seems to care about the innocent loss of life that will continue is a really depressing dose of reality about how decisions get made as countries compete for resources, wealth and influence.

TheStorm
07-09-2007, 07:55 PM
:roll: isn't this whole "if we leave it'll get worse" BS getting a little old now. The same people saying things will spiral out of control are the same idiots that said we'd be greeted as liberators, the war would pay for itself, WMD, they'll follow us hear, all have been proven as BS yet we continue to bleed ourselves dry(financially and literally) for a country that after four years of having their hand held is no closer today that being able to stand on its feet than it was when our chimp in chief claimed "mission accomplished". We're gonna leave Iraq people...deal with it, its gonna happen more likely sooner than later, we'll eventually declare "victory" and pull out. I get a laugh the most out of "they'll follow us here", yes cause we've got ALL the terrorist of the world so occupied in Iraq now that if we just left you'd see a bunch of sunni and shia insurgents hopping on planes and boats and start storming Washington DC, give me a ****ing break rofl

It's obvious you need to work on your reading comprehension. The article's argument is not that they will follow us home.

kamaz
07-09-2007, 08:02 PM
very good article, especially from a man that knows totalitarianism full well, N.Sharansky. I read his book Case for Democracy, really good reading

DB-ERAUPilot
07-09-2007, 11:27 PM
It's obvious you need to work on your reading comprehension. The article's argument is not that they will follow us home.

I understood the article clearly, my point in mentioning the "they'll follow us home" bit was the fact that is constantly one of the lines fed to the public about why we have to stay, but nice try at trying to get a quick internet jab in there :roll:

budgie
07-09-2007, 11:50 PM
Does anyone think it will not take decades of fighting among Sunni, Shia and Kurd before there is stability in what will once have been called Iraq? Regardless of US presence this will be the case..

Apparently the Whitehouse wants to keep people believing that somehow a continued presence is stopping the bloodshed (it's making a small dent at best) or that somehow the war is chiefly between America and 'the terrorists' (anyone with a competing agenda from Al Qaeda sympathisers to Shiite nationalists). It is a war between Iraqis and the sooner America realises this the sooner it can start extricating itself from the mess. Continued presence in a war between the Vietnamese didn't stop the inevtable outcome and neither will staying in Iraq. Which should make more people question the administration's real motives for staying.


That nobody in the equation seems to care about the innocent loss of life that will continue is a really depressing dose of reality about how decisions get made as countries compete for resources, wealth and influence.

Sad but true. Unfortunately those political leaders who want to 'stay the course' in order to 'protect innocents' had no care for those same innocents when they launched this war - bombs, cruise missiles and all. The victims of Iraq (easily transitioned in the Whitehouse backroom from Saddam's victims to victims of the insurgency) are mere pawns in the power game and expedient causes du jour when ever the people get tired of the administration's dithering and refusal to make real changes to the policy.

TheStorm
07-10-2007, 12:19 AM
I understood the article clearly, my point in mentioning the "they'll follow us home" bit was the fact that is constantly one of the lines fed to the public about why we have to stay,

That's nice. Got any more trite and irrelevant rants to share with us?


but nice try at trying to get a quick internet jab in there :roll:

:lol:

You went off on a silly tangent - and didn't even address the article's argument - and got called on your red herring.

DB-ERAUPilot
07-10-2007, 12:44 AM
the article doesn't have anything new to say besides the same old "we can't leave" because of "x" ...the only difference in this one is we're now supposed to think of the poor unfortunate iraqis suffering, who after four years, still are no closer getting their crap together than from day one. nothing new, but I guess since YOU posted the article, we're supposed to argue the same argument over....again :roll:

TheStorm
07-10-2007, 01:22 AM
the article doesn't have anything new to say besides the same old "we can't leave" because of "x" ...the only difference in this one is we're now supposed to think of the poor unfortunate iraqis suffering, who after four years, still are no closer getting their crap together than from day one. nothing new, but I guess since YOU posted the article, we're supposed to argue the same argument over....again :roll:

You still haven't shown that the article is wrong in any way.

Although it is mildly amusing to watch you dance around it.

Will our efforts to stop the Iraqis killing each other ultimately prove futile? Perhaps, but there are to many who pretend Coalition forces are the problem and everything will be fine and dandy after they leave.

eugenlitwin
07-10-2007, 07:26 AM
Does anyone think it will not take decades of fighting among Sunni, Shia and Kurd before there is stability in what will once have been called Iraq? Regardless of US presence this will be the case.

Think Italy circa 1400's if you want a model for how Iraq is going to devolve into a cyclic state of war and tentative peace among its factions.

The question is to what extent does the US influence the division of the country into various ethnic enclaves? How will the US and its allies thwart the attempts of various patrons (Iran) from becoming Iraq's hegemon? Will the Saudi's find a way to exert control over Iraqi oil resources? The Iranians perhaps? Syria? Turkey?

This is why at the end of the day I think this was by design. I think Cheney, Hadley and Rice would have accepted a democratic Iraq as an outcome, but the decisions made point to a degree of incompetence so vast one has to at least consider the possibility of intelligent design in this outcome.

That nobody in the equation seems to care about the innocent loss of life that will continue is a really depressing dose of reality about how decisions get made as countries compete for resources, wealth and influence.


really good point, but i think Kurdistan with American bases would be stable as a rock;)

lider_r
07-10-2007, 08:52 AM
im at a loss to understand how iraq could possibly get any worse than it already is if coalition troops left....


30 people dieing a day, bodies lying in the streets, fresh mass graves being found every other week, car bombs going off in markets, rampant weapons smuggling, rival tribes drilling into each others brains with power tools, lack of electricity, lack of basic medical facilities, lack of basic security, rampant corruption, children growing up with mental problems because of all the violence...


how could it possibly get any worse than it already is?

IDF_TANKER
07-10-2007, 08:57 AM
im at a loss to understand how iraq could possibly get any worse than it already is if coalition troops left....


30 people dieing a day, bodies lying in the streets, fresh mass graves being found every other week, car bombs going off in markets, rampant weapons smuggling, rival tribes drilling into each others brains with power tools, lack of electricity, lack of basic medical facilities, lack of basic security, rampant corruption, children growing up with mental problems because of all the violence...


how could it possibly get any worse than it already is?

Heard about Hamah? Black September? That's how.

warshak
07-10-2007, 11:11 AM
Tsk tsk tsk, Reading your posts i'm getting the picture that the US is in a fix right now, will they have the political will to stay and finish the job or leave and let the violence and blood bath reach its peak, possibly dragging the whole middle east in. If that's the case i think the US is better off staying and finish the job because if the violence in Iraq drags the whole middle east, everyone's interests will be hurt especially US. picture the middle east oil industry unable to function...tsk tsk tsk, either way the US gets the blame...

joedirt
07-10-2007, 05:37 PM
afghanistan and iraq are costing about 12billion a month. so far 440billion has been spent on iraq. so say to get to some form of stability it takes 10-15 years from today are you willing to spend a trillion plus on this? are you willing to ask the military to have people being deployed on 3+ deployments to that hell hole? seriously pull the troops the iraqis will settle it yes there will be some ethnic cleansing yes some bad stuff will go down but thats the price of failed foreign policy.


just think in a alternate history if say 100billion and been dumped into aghanistan to build that countrys infrastructure and help modernize the country. think of the rest of that money had been spent on homeland defense and social projects for the american people (schools, health care, the sciences)

also ponder on this kids who where born in 1999 and end up joining the military will end up being sent to that place if say the occupation continues for another 10 years.

warshak
07-10-2007, 06:26 PM
So if US withdraws today, and bloodbath follows, what comes next? UN peacekeeping?

afreu
07-10-2007, 06:33 PM
If the greatest military power in the universe can't peacekeep Iraq how are some ill-equiped UN troopers supposed to be succesfull.

Hilbert
07-10-2007, 06:41 PM
Simple: with condemntions and sanctions. That would me my guess. I recall a conversation I had wih a guy a while back who argued the best thing we could do in Iraq is pull out and hand it to the U.N. as they have the most experience in dealing with such events an would definately do a better job, etc.

lider_r
07-10-2007, 08:01 PM
its not the UN's responsibility to clean up after America's mess

warshak
07-11-2007, 05:09 AM
its not the UN's responsibility to clean up after America's mess

I agree on this one but if the violence escalates and the whole region is dragged into it then I guess the UN have to step-in. Otherwise there will be an effect on the world's economy...