Canada first, but

[EvanL]

COMPETITIVE BIDDING will be the key to whether any or all of the three new naval vessels Ottawa plans to buy will be built in Canada.

It's all well and good to insist, as did the NDP's Peter Stoffer and other interest groups in recent days, that the three new ships only be made in Canada. "We would like them to announce that these vessels will be built right here in Canada," Mr. Stoffer told a news conference staged Monday in Ottawa. "We believe that the shipbuilding industry in Canada has the potential for greatness throughout the country."

Joining Mr. Stoffer in the call for a Canada-only policy were Bloc MP Paul Crête and representatives of shipbuilding unions and the industry.

Prime Minister Paul Martin announced last month the purchase of the $2.1-billion ships to replace HMCS Preserver and HMCS Protecteur. Defence Minister David Pratt has so far refused to promise they will be built in Canada, citing departmental policy requiring Ottawa to only buy Canadian ships if there is a "competitive environment."

The policy makes sense. It will force Canadian yards, if they decide to seek the orders, to present competitive bids. That should help taxpayers get value for money. But if foreign bids are subsidized, this should count against them, in fairness to Canadian bidders.

It would be a shame if new navy ships were built outside this country. It could be a possibility, however, if Canadian yards don't sharpen their pencils.

Sovereignty and job-creation issues would favour having the ships built here, but only if the price is right.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[scm77]

Hmmm... the NDP and the Bloc, two of the least important parties. :lol:

[Bombtrack]

We all know that we buy from the lowest bidder, so lets hope that canadian yards are bidding "competitively"

[DANJANOU]

Ok let me see if I can follow this. After years of indifference and neglect for the Forces by the Government in power, all of a sudden our PM who owns a shipping line, is hot for us to build..... wait for it.....ships.

Kind of like old Papa Doc Cretin there ordering Challeger luxury VIP jets for the airforce from his... wait for it ....relatives firm, Bombardier. :roll:

[Bombtrack]

But hey, at least we can make good use of these

[TALOS]

Ok let me see if I can follow this. After years of indifference and neglect for the Forces by the Government in power, all of a sudden our PM who owns a shipping line, is hot for us to build..... wait for it.....ships.

Kind of like old Papa Doc Cretin there ordering Challeger luxury VIP jets for the airforce from his... wait for it ....relatives firm, Bombardier. :roll:
Yes, well, big difference between ships that are valuable and vip transport aircraft IMHO ;)

[DANJANOU]

True enough, but what are we building here. Three ships designed to do two totally different jobs, fleet resupply and transporting and supporting a force of troop/light armoured vehicles for operations (Haiti for example).

Once again we're trying to do something on the cheap, although you wouldn't know it by the pricetag. Usually when you try and do this you end up with a system (in this case ships) not really suited to either role.

Case in point the "tank trainers" we were saddled with in the 1970's Cougar wheeled vehicles that really were no replacement for tanks, but could be used in an unidentified Province (say Quebec) in as anti riot vehicles in the event of a perceived civil disturbance.

Also look at the new compromise MGS that we're considering, as a replacement for the Leo MBT, over the objectiions of the RCAC who will be saddled with it. Again a cost cutting comprise wpn system, that probaly can't do what it needs to.

The 12 Kingston Class MCMVs which are supposed to able to be both Mine Sweepers or costal patrol boats, by switching "modules". The fact that they really are not effective at either or so I'm told is of course not an issue.

The Polaris (Airbus) we ended up buying to bailout another PM's business cronies when we really needed were stategic airlift (C-5 Galaxies? and a n air to air refuelling capability for our CF-18 fleet).

ADATs

Western star trucks,

The Iltis,

The Milverado

Hey the list goes on.

From what I've seen on other forums posted by those more qualified to discuss our naval needs than either you or I, we're buying the wrong thing and paying too much again. For what we've budgeted we could probably get 2 and maybe 4 dedicated fleet resupply ships to replace the three we have/had, and 1 maybe 2 small assualtships/ VTOL carriers along the lines of what the Dutch have coming on line.

Hey I'm all for beefing up our military and the sooner the better. We need to ask the professionals what they need to get the job done though, not set up another make work project in somebodies riding to ensure his/her re-election.

[TALOS]

True enough, but what are we building here. Three ships designed to do two totally different jobs, fleet resupply and transporting and supporting a force of troop/light armoured vehicles for operations (Haiti for example).

Once again we're trying to do something on the cheap, although you wouldn't know it by the pricetag. Usually when you try and do this you end up with a system (in this case ships) not really suited to either role.

Case in point the "tank trainers" we were saddled with in the 1970's Cougar wheeled vehicles that really were no replacement for tanks, but could be used in an unidentified Province (say Quebec) in as anti riot vehicles in the event of a perceived civil disturbance.

Also look at the new compromise MGS that we're considering, as a replacement for the Leo MBT, over the objectiions of the RCAC who will be saddled with it. Again a cost cutting comprise wpn system, that probaly can't do what it needs to.

The 12 Kingston Class MCMVs which are supposed to able to be both Mine Sweepers or costal patrol boats, by switching "modules". The fact that they really are not effective at either or so I'm told is of course not an issue.

The Polaris (Airbus) we ended up buying to bailout another PM's business cronies when we really needed were stategic airlift (C-5 Galaxies? and a n air to air refuelling capability for our CF-18 fleet).

ADATs

Western star trucks,

The Iltis,

The Milverado

Hey the list goes on.

From what I've seen on other forums posted by those more qualified to discuss our naval needs than either you or I, we're buying the wrong thing and paying too much again. For what we've budgeted we could probably get 2 and maybe 4 dedicated fleet resupply ships to replace the three we have/had, and 1 maybe 2 small assualtships/ VTOL carriers along the lines of what the Dutch have coming on line.

Hey I'm all for beefing up our military and the sooner the better. We need to ask the professionals what they need to get the job done though, not set up another make work project in somebodies riding to ensure his/her re-election.
Trust me, its not that I disagree with you, my point was more along the lines of I would rather see businesses making front line/support vessels then VIP transports or such.
I always thought for instance that we should just buy whats already made and effective then worry about building a whole new fancy dancy thing (read "BC Fast Ferries" in that last comment :roll: )
At least these vessels have a purpose and the old ships DO need to be replaced. I agree with you on the coastal vessels, not very useful in either roll, we should buy old Oliver Hazard Perry Frigates for instance, the US wants to be rid of them from what I read because they cant keep up with Carrier groups or something like that.

[ArmedPacifist]

But hey, at least we can make good use of these

Exactly.

[MapleLeafInfantry]

on the whole concept of sovereignty i do believe that leadership is losing touch with whats most important, the effectiveness, if another nation can provide for us what we need a t a better price or a better product, then by all means... its sad that defence purchasing has to be about everyone else rather then national defence.


maple

[DANJANOU]

Talos we’re on the same side of this argument.

Although the CPFs are better than the US Frigates. Our problem was we didn’t sell them and now the technology and ship building capability is being lost again. When it comes time to replace them in 20 years it will take longer and cost us more because we have to tool up our warship building industry from practically scratch. Several medium navies (Saudi Arabia) etc were interested in the CPF, and had we considered it we still be making them, Canadian shipyards would still have employers (paying taxes) and the skills would not be rusting out. The crappy MCMV was a sop to a couple of shipyards. Basically all its’ good for is harbour and inland coastal waters patrolling and teaching basic seamanship to the naval Reservists.

Same thing in the happened in the 1970’s with the Tribal Class DDHs. At the time they came out they were state of the art (gas turbine engines instead of steam, 2 Helios instead ofg the 1 carried on all RN and USN destroyers). Again a lot of middle powers were interested, included several Latin American navies who for political reasons would have preferred not to buy US but Trudeau said no and they ended up buying British, French, and/or Dutch. We lost the skills and that’s why it took so long and cost so much to develop and build the CPFs.

Hey I’d love to see these new ships built here, but realistically that option ain’t rthere due to political (Liberal mismanagement) so why compound the problem. Is ay we buy cheap and quick off the shelf now. Six ships for the price of three, and then give the navy the funds uit needs to attract/recruit and train enough warm bodies to crew them. If we were lucky maybe the Dutch would let us have some of the work for our yards.

What the proposed new ships will probably look like up and running no sooner than 2011-2015
http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/3/web/123000-123999/123215_73_full.gif


Instead we could buy quicker and cheaper off of the shelf:
Dutch design for a LPD /assault carrier with a carrying capacity of a Lt Infantry Bn I mentioned
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/pics/scheld9.jpg

and the Dutch fleet re supply ship
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/pics/a836_b.jpg

Another alternative might be this:
RAN prototype mini assault carrier
http://www.janes.com/regional_news/asia_pacific/news/jdw/jdw000718_1_n.shtml

Then again Plan B is to take those BC Ferries and commission them as troop ships eh.