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Mishka Zubov
07-10-2007, 06:46 PM
MIG-29 pilots will fight F-16s
Author: JACEK SKROBISZ - Dziennik Bałtycki
Date: 2007-07-10

A historical event will take place in Polish Air Forces - an air battle between warplanes MiG-29 and F-16, which have enriched our air forces few months ago. This will be the first serious test of the new machines in our country. The confrontation details are being defined now.

-There have been some meetings regarding technical and safety issues - confirms Eugeniusz Gardas, a deputy commander of the 1st Tactical Air Brigade at Świdwin. - We only need to decide on the time and place of the contest, and also decide on a number of warplanes that will be used in the "air battle".

Although the date of this first ever Polish contest between MiG-29 and F-16 is not known yet, we have been told that this is a matter of weeks.

The MiG side will be probably represented by the pilots of the 41st Tactical Air Squadron, from the 22nd Air Base in Malbork. The F-16 side will be represented by the 3rd Tactical Air Squadron, from the 31st Air Base in Krzesiny, near Poznań.

Pilots, of course, will not be shooting with real ammunition. Special registers, installed on board of the warplanes, will be able to decide the scores. MiG-29 has better air maneuverability, but F-16 has the superiority of better electronics. MiG pilots will need to find the ways of deceiving the technology.

-I know that pilots on both sides are looking forward to such confrontation - says Gardas.

source: Dziennik Bałtycki, http://gdansk.naszemiasto.pl/wydarzenia/748162.html

Digged by Switek
Translated by MZ

Flamming_Python
07-10-2007, 06:50 PM
GAME OOON! :D

I also look foward to the battles we'll have on mp.net when the result of this contest gets published.

IDF_TANKER
07-10-2007, 06:53 PM
Bets, any body?:)

Jorge M.
07-10-2007, 06:58 PM
Good stuff.

Russian SU-30MK2s and Venezuela F-16s OCU did something similar a year ago.

Hope to see who wins in this Fulcrum vs Falcon

Kojo
07-10-2007, 07:01 PM
F16 should be able to win long range fights I guess and up close it's about who's the best pilot.
Either way I don't see how this is historical other than, it's both Polish planes fighting eachother, but the F16 allready met the Mig29 on the battlefield and won. A Dutch F16 shot down a serb Mig29 years ago allready. My bet will be on the F16 for sure :)

oldsoak
07-10-2007, 07:03 PM
Mig 29's vs F16's in WVR - knifefight in a phone box. With good pilots in each, it will go right up to the wire.

The incident in the former Yugo was not in all honesty a test of either machine. In fairness to the Serbs, they were operating under all sorts of disadvantages.

signatory
07-10-2007, 07:03 PM
Why do people always insist on picking a winner?

It's first of all a training and learning process. The MIGs might even be restricted to stay subsonic. Who knows? Only the air force.

kamaz
07-10-2007, 07:04 PM
#1 what block # fighters are these? a modernized latest block Mig29 will eat an early F16 for breakfast and vice versa. Also whats the quality of the squadron pilots? Some squads are better than others, all this should be factored.

Kojo
07-10-2007, 07:06 PM
Why do people always insist on picking a winner?

It's first of all a training and learning process. The MIGs might even be restricted to stay subsonic. Who knows? Only the air force.


It's called a bet ... it's supposed to be fun and exciting, because noone knows for sure who wins ... and if you lose you can allways whine about restrictions later :)

signatory
07-10-2007, 07:14 PM
It's called a bet ... it's supposed to be fun and exciting, because noone knows for sure who wins ... and if you lose you can allways whine about restrictions later :)

AH!

Inscriptional *********ion... not really for me p-)

Venom PL
07-10-2007, 07:15 PM
Finally !!! - I was hoping that our Air Force will perform such test. woot


Bets, any body?:)

Hmm it's hard to say - I think that I'll wait for the results.


#1 what block # fighters are these?.

F-16's Block 52+

Switek
07-10-2007, 07:17 PM
well I smell that Mig's pilots will win... Just a matter of gained expierience... and prestige...

Pleonasm
07-10-2007, 07:21 PM
F16 should be able to win long range fights I guess and up close it's about who's the best pilot.
Either way I don't see how this is historical other than, it's both Polish planes fighting eachother, but the F16 allready met the Mig29 on the battlefield and won. A Dutch F16 shot down a serb Mig29 years ago allready. My bet will be on the F16 for sure :)

Mine, too. Of course, only if the Polish Air Force gives AWACS support for the F-16s and the MiG-29 pilots are forced to turn off their radar and the maintenance men do everything in order to simulate long lasting maintenance without proper spare parts. ;)

Sneeker
07-10-2007, 07:23 PM
My bet is a 10-3 kill ratio in favor of the Vipers.

Kilgor
07-10-2007, 07:51 PM
Best not to predict anything until the ROE's for both sides are published.

wildheart
07-10-2007, 08:03 PM
i'll put a 4 pack onto whichever pilot can get the first 'shot' in.

Ordie
07-10-2007, 08:05 PM
I thought the Luftwaffe Mig-29's had done something similar with other NATO aircraft.

Question: Are the Polish Mig-29 former Luftwaffe aircraft with NATO specifications?

Xaito
07-10-2007, 08:13 PM
I thought the Luftwaffe Mig-29's had done something similar with other NATO aircraft.

Question: Are the Polish Mig-29 former Luftwaffe aircraft with NATO specifications?

germany has given 22 (all but 2 - 1 crashed and 1 given to a museum) of its mig-29 to poland in 2003

edit: by the way I'm looking forward to the results - of course I'm rooting for the Migs

MZKT
07-10-2007, 08:57 PM
Polish ex-german MIGs are already pretty old, I assume one of the early versions from the mid-80s, not SMT or M2. Fielding a new F-16 against a 20 years old MiG-29 is not really fair.
But whith newest versions of each aircraft and equal pilots I would bet on MiG.

CPL Trevoga
07-10-2007, 09:09 PM
Come on people, it's gonna be dog'n'pony show. F-16 will win.

AztecMex
07-10-2007, 09:57 PM
If there are two stages one long distance and another short distance then i would bet Mig wins short and Falcon wins long.Other then that i still got bets on MIG!!!! :)

Mr.K
07-10-2007, 10:11 PM
F-16 will win, its a political decision. A F-16 win sends a "nice message" 1. Polish pilots rock 2. Soviet junk sucks, Russia don't mess with Poland... 3. NATO is amazing. and so on...

Midav
07-10-2007, 10:20 PM
F-16 will win, its a political decision. A F-16 win sends a "nice message" 1. Polish pilots rock 2. Soviet junk sucks, Russia don't mess with Poland... 3. NATO is amazing. and so on...

So Polish pilots wouldn't rock if they won in their MiG-29's?

To the rest, c'mooooooooon. Take the tin foil hat off.

Mr.K
07-10-2007, 10:42 PM
So Polish pilots wouldn't rock if they won in their MiG-29's?

To the rest, c'mooooooooon. Take the tin foil hat off.

Yes, but their awesomeness would be caused by the F-16 factor. "See our pilots are good, but they're even better in an F-16" If the F-16 looses the impression will be very negative in the eyes of the public.It would question the politics,the changes, and the need to adopt to NATO standards.

Midav
07-10-2007, 10:51 PM
Yes, but their awesomeness would be caused by the F-16 factor. "See our pilots are good, but they're even better in an F-16" If the F-16 looses the impression will be very negative in the eyes of the public.It would question the politics,the changes, and the need to adopt to NATO standards.

I seeeee ;) ;)

Like eating Cheerios in the morning. Rather, the cereal is called F-16! Get your lean mean fighting machine of F-16© to energize your day! Those sneaky guys at General Mills are brilliant!!

Oh wait.. incredible! It is a conspiracy.. the cereal company is General Mills while the original developer of the F-16 was General Dynamics. Coincidence? I think not!!

Quick, I need a tin foil hat aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

*ahem*

Anyways, back to reality. May the best aircraft win :)

socom6
07-10-2007, 10:55 PM
LOL this reminds me of NovaLogic's F16 MRF vs Mig29 on IBS back in the day when games were damn good.

Kilgor
07-10-2007, 11:02 PM
Relax guys, if it loses .. it was obviously the export version !

tony6
07-11-2007, 01:12 AM
Best not to predict anything until the ROE's for both sides are published.
Exactly.

What is strange to me is the fact that 41st ELT from Malbork AFB has been chosen to this confrontation. They switched to MiG-29s not so long ago while the most experienced pilots flying 29s are for sure guys from 1st ELT from Minsk Mazowiecki AFB. They've been flying these birds for years, took part in many NATO exercises and also in Air Policing in Lithuania.
Maybe it was a kind of 'political' choice.

RomanS
07-11-2007, 01:23 AM
How about Russian pilots in Mig-29s vs Polish pilots in F16s

101_ScreamEagle
07-11-2007, 01:32 AM
Why don't we just send up some US F-22's and RAF Eurofighters to wipe the floor with everyone.

GazB
07-11-2007, 01:57 AM
So block 52 F-16s vs the German downgraded export Mig-29Bs with derated engines (to extend life).
Yeah... it is a tricky one, but the same reason the Germans didn't upgrade their Mig-29s to a reasonable standard was because they didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot over the Typhoon. If they upgraded the Mig too much what happens when the Typhoon is ready but the Mig is better at somethings than the new European superfighter?
If the F-16 has no helmet mounted sights and no X model sidewinder I would expect the same results as with the Germans and US pilots... the F-16s got onto the Migs tails 62% in close combat but got a zero kill record because they had already been hit by R-73s using the HMS.
At medium range the Mig-29 was found to be comparable to the F-15 with Sparrows but not really competitive without R-77s when vs AMRAAM.
Using guns the Mig is again impressive... once the target has been aquired and locked using the IRST/HMS/radar the pilot merely pulls the trigger and manouvers the target into kill zone. The computer automatically fires a burst when it detects it will hit and shuts down the gun after 3-4 rounds have been fired, which is enough to kill most fighter sized targets. After testing the designer is claimed to have said if he had know the fire control system and gun were that effective he would have halved the ammo capacity.

Of course I doubt the Polish government would be happy about a Russian design winning so I will guess the F-16 will win comfortably.

MajorTom
07-11-2007, 02:49 AM
but the F16 allready met the Mig29 on the battlefield and won.

That was an AMRAAM and AWACS vs blind jet. NATO air C&C system won.

Musashi
07-11-2007, 03:36 AM
So block 52 F-16s vs the German downgraded export Mig-29Bs with derated engines (to extend life).
Yeah... it is a tricky one, but the same reason the Germans didn't upgrade their Mig-29s to a reasonable standard was because they didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot over the Typhoon. If they upgraded the Mig too much what happens when the Typhoon is ready but the Mig is better at somethings than the new European superfighter?
If the F-16 has no helmet mounted sights and no X model sidewinder I would expect the same results as with the Germans and US pilots... the F-16s got onto the Migs tails 62% in close combat but got a zero kill record because they had already been hit by R-73s using the HMS.
At medium range the Mig-29 was found to be comparable to the F-15 with Sparrows but not really competitive without R-77s when vs AMRAAM.
Using guns the Mig is again impressive... once the target has been aquired and locked using the IRST/HMS/radar the pilot merely pulls the trigger and manouvers the target into kill zone. The computer automatically fires a burst when it detects it will hit and shuts down the gun after 3-4 rounds have been fired, which is enough to kill most fighter sized targets. After testing the designer is claimed to have said if he had know the fire control system and gun were that effective he would have halved the ammo capacity.

Of course I doubt the Polish government would be happy about a Russian design winning so I will guess the F-16 will win comfortably.
IIRC our MiGs use neither R-73 nor R-77, just R-60 Ching-era missiles.


germany has given 22 (all but 2 - 1 crashed and 1 given to a museum) of its mig-29 to poland in 2003

edit: by the way I'm looking forward to the results - of course I'm rooting for the Migs
Don't forget we had already had 12 own MiG-29s and 10 ex-Czech ones (exchanged for 11 W3 Sokol helos) before.

NATO exercised proved a single Polish Ming-era version MiG-29 can easily defeat 4 German Tornadoes at short range (using helmet-mounted sights).

rister
07-11-2007, 03:52 AM
German MiG-29s deployed to Switzerland in 2002 to perform air combat training missions with the F/A-18C/D Hornets.
Koen Aerts/Aero Topics analyses the 'Alpine close encounters' and reports on Germany's Fulcrum era, which is about to come to a close
On 17 April 2002, another milestone was set in Swiss aviation history when for the very first time the legendary MiG-29 deployed to this Central-European Alpine state. Invited by the Schweizer Luftwaffe or Swiss Air Force for a two-week lasting exercise, German Luftwaffe Fulcrums were to perform their best against the fighter pilots of Switzerland's Hornet-equipped Staffel 11 "Tiger" Squadron. Although primarily tasked with the air defense role, the Laage-based MiG-29s are more often - if not constantly - called upon by Western squadrons for DACT
- Dissimilar Air Combat Training - exercises to confront their pilots with the much-feared Russian myth. To make the necessary arrangements for Fulca 2002 (Fulcrum Campaign), as the exchange event was baptized, one German two-seater MiG-29UB pre-visited Dübendorf's "Tigers" on 13th February.
In line with its neutral status and non-alignment with other countries Switzerland is obliged to maintain a proper military force, capable to solely defend Swiss territory in times of conflict. To bring its Air Force to these standards, Swiss pilots often deploy abroad to train with surrounding countries in the air defense role. One example is Waddington's ACMI range, where Swiss authorities annually book several slots, giving their pilots the possibility to keep tracks with the latest air combat tactics. Furthermore, participating in exercises like Amadeus in Austria allow the Swiss Air Force to have an insight in combined missions with 'allied' forces. Inviting foreign air forces to their home front for air combat training over the snow-covered Alps was a rare occasion before the turn of the century. Today, the Schweizer Luftwaffe realizes that a full use of the Hornet's air defense capabilities can only be explored through co-operation and information exchange with foreign fighter units. In this respect joint training with neighboring states (France, Germany, Austria and Italy) is set as a priority in the co-operation with other air forces. This 'internationalization' process brought in August 1999 seven Austrian J-35OE Drakens to Payerne airbase for a one week lasting squadron exchange. As a sequel to this policy the recent Fulca 2002 exercise, held from 15 April to 3 May at Dübendorf airbase, near the city of Zürich, gave the Swiss Hornet drivers the means to put themselves to the test with the German MiG-29s. Whereas the main objective of the German pilots was to learn more about air combat maneuvering at high altitude in the Alpine region, the Swiss pilots were more interested in measuring the Hornet's strengths and weaknesses when confronted with this Russian legend. During the less hectic weekends sightseeing tours and other social events gave the 'Tigers' the chance to tie new relationships with their Northern neighbors.


MiG-29, the gift from God.

While on 9 November 1989 many East-German citizens were exuberantly celebrating the fall of the Berlin Wall, the Western military was already eye-balling at the aerial assets of the NVA – Nationale Volks Armee or East German Armed Forces. NATO was in particular very eager to get their hands on the 24 newly acquired MiG-29 aircraft, which had rejuvenated NVA's JG 3 - Jagdgeschwader 3 'Wladimir Komarow', Preschen airbase, only one year before. A 1 billion GDR Marks contract included 20 MiG-29A and four MiG-29UB two-seater trainers, which were all delivered between May 1988 and January of the next year. Although a follow-on contract for 32 additional Fulcrums was signed to replace the MiG-21 Fishbeds of the Holzdorf-based JG 1 'Fritz Schmenkel', Mother-Russia banned further sales as the German Reunification came closer, fearing what was about to come true.





Very eager to put the latest 'Red Threat' technology to the test, NATO specialists' patience was tried until November 1990, when the NVA officially ceased to exist and all assets were assimilated in the newly consolidated German Luftwaffe. At the time very little was known about the novelties the Fulcrum incorporated, and this ignorance made the MiG-29 the most-feared Russian fighter. Since tensions in the Gulf region might lead to Iraqi MiG encounters, the Warsaw Pact present came as a God's gift. To divulge the Fulcrum's secrets, the aircraft was submitted to a six months lasting evaluation program to explore its performance limits and to analyse its air defence capabilities when flying DACT missions with and against Western aircraft. After some 385 sorties and 300 flying hours, the conclusions of the 50 cm high staple of detailed reports were distilled into a 13 pages long analysis, which in turn was submitted to the cabinet of Defence Minister Gerhard Stoltenberg. The German Government decided on the integration of the Fulcrum fleet in the Luftwaffe inventory for a period of twelve years. To fulfil their role in the national air defence the German MiG-29s needed various adjustments necessary to operate in NATO structure. All 24 aircraft past through the three years lasting ICAO 1 upgrade program, which was concluded in 1995. Apart from the air superiority grey colour scheme, IFF, TACAN and free selectable VHF/UHF radios were installed. Furthermore collision warning lights and emergency communications were incorporated, while inside the cockpit the metric system and Russian language were replaced by English standards. Due to the proximity to the Polish border, MiG-29 launches from Preschen obliged the aircraft to enter Polish airspace, much to the dislike of the local authorities. Therefore, in 1995 the Fulcrums relocated to Laage airbase, Northern Germany, to equip Staffel 1 of the newly established JG 73 'Steinhoff'. Two years later the Pferdsfeld Phantoms of JBG 35 were also relocated to Laage, forming JG73/Staffel 2.

Although primarily tasked with a role in the German air defense system, the 'MiG-29 drivers' saw themselves evolve into a very different player. Obsessively trained to counter Russia's latest generation fighters, the ultimate Fulcrum confrontation was - and still is - every Western fighter pilot's dream. Consequently JG 73 was overwhelmed with requests for squadron exchanges to act as a sparring partner in aerial duels. With help from the most experienced German AMRAAM operating F-4F pilots, new MiG-29 tactics were developed, based on western ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering - techniques and AIM-120 characteristics. Russia's latest generation fighter combined with the use of Western tactics and knowledge made JG 73's aircrew without doubt the best MiG-29 pilots in the world.


Whereas the 90 people strong German contingent arrived in Dübendorf on 17th April, first missions were scheduled two days later. This gave both parties the opportunity to study the flight schedule of the following two weeks and, more important, to get to know each other. The most striking difference between the 'opponents' was the generation gap. Similar to the age difference between the German Fulcrums and the Swiss F/A-18s, the Hornet drivers of the Ueberwachungsgeschwader (UeG) or Air Surveillance Wing are considerably younger than their German colleagues. Although the Swiss Air Force previously consisted of mixed squadrons of militia and professional pilots, the Hornet-equipped Staffels 11, 17 and 18 of the UeG are composed of only young full-time professionals. Reason for this shift from a partly militia crew to full-time pro's is the F/A-18C/D being too complex for interim use. The first Fulca 2002 missions were conducted on 19th April in the form of familiarization flights, during which the MiG pilots, who normally operate over the North-German plains and the Ostsee, were introduced to the breathtaking alpine scenery. More important were the low approaches over several South-Swiss airbases, which in case of technical problems or bad weather situation during the numerous 'hops' would act as emergency landing locations. Since most of these reserve airbases are located in narrow valleys, overshadowed by towering mountain ranges, special approach procedures are operative and wind is a very important parameter. Although the German pilots studied these 'acrobatic' landing procedures to the detail, the two weeks lasting exercise proved incident-free.
Short-sighted, but lethal'

During the first training week basic fighter maneuvering, i.e. air combat within visual range, was practiced and the dogfight intensity was gradually built up during the first five days from 1v1 to 2v1, concluding in 2v2 on 26 April. Like many MiG opponents during previous DACT exercises, the Swiss underestimated the Fulcrum's qualities at close range. Like the Hornet, the MiG-29 has great low speed maneuverability,


which allows it to move its nose around in slow-speed fights. The aircraft's greatest advantage is the AA-11 Archer, a Russian-built infra-red guided missile, which in combination with the pilot's helmet-mounted sight makes the Fulcrum the most feared lethal weapon. This helmet-mounted sight consists of a monocle over the left eye and sensors on helmet and in the cockpit to detect the pilot's head position. Just by looking at the target the pilot can activate a firing solution and the thrust-vectored Archer can be launched up to 45° off the MiG's nose. This superiority is only effective if the enemy is seen as soon as possible. One of the Fulcrum's disadvantages is the visibility from the cockpit. The Hornet drivers soon realized that the MiG-29 pilots had difficulties 'checking six'. Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target, a very tiresome procedure when performed in heavy G dogfights. Thirdly, the Fulcrum's cockpit avionics entail considerable workload with a lot of hands-off switches and limited HUD information. When looking inside his cockpit, the MiG-29 pilot is not able to continuously monitor his tactical situation. These elements gave the Hornet drivers the means to tackle the MiG-29's splendid close-range superior performance and partly overcome the Archer off-boresight launch authority.


The Fulcrum's greatest disadvantage was unveiled during the second week, when 4v4 BVR (beyond visual range) 'hops' were performed. Although the MiG-29's radar has a 120° detection capability, only a 50° cone can be used for target detection and tracking. Clearly, this does not give the pilot a good overview of the tactical situation. Since the radar has to be manually steered towards the target's direction,
the pilot greatly depends on GCI information to locate the bogey. During lock-on all other contacts are lost and no target altitude, range or speed information is provided. The second BVR drawback is the use of the AA-10 Alamo, a semi-active radar guided missile which needs target illumination until impact. The Alamo's performance can be compared with its outdated Western counterpart, the AIM-7 Sparrow. Clearly, the AMRAAM-equipped Hornets were in the advantage here. During the last two days of the exercise the scenario changed into 4v2+2, meaning four Hornets against two MiG-29s and a pair of F-5E Tigers. During these setups the Hornet pilots were less successful than earlier in the week, since the radar of the interceptor F-5Es can cover a wider angle during search mode than the Fulcrum. This feature provided a much better overview of the tactical situation and the Fulcrum drivers could be directed to their targets by communicating the bogeys' co-ordinates.
Thirsty machine.

During Fulca 2002 F-5E/F and Mirage IIIRS sorties were strongly reduced partly to minimize the noise pollution over Dübendorf's surrounding villages. More important, these temporary regulations freed technicians and ground personnel to ensure a higher service level of the F/A-18 fleet. The Hornet's low maintenance needs - one flight hour equals about 25 man hours of maintenance work - added to the high operational status throughout the exercise. In this field the German counterparts were in for a challenge, since one MiG-29 flight hour requires no less than 80 man hours of servicing. Although during the exercise the objective was to have six Fulcrums operational at all times, the Germans ferried eight aircraft to Dübendorf to absorb this Giant's work. Daily many DACT 'hops' were scheduled, averaging to about fourteen MiG-29 sorties per day, but these numbers have to be put into perspective. Each mission comprised a maximum of 25 minutes flying, which unveiled the MiG-29's Achilles heel. Being a real gas guzzler, the Fulcrum's autonomy is very restricted and considered a major worry in its air defense task. Mass-produced in a Cold War period, the Russian aircraft was mainly designed for scramble missions to intercept an intruder. Due to its limited autonomy the Fulcrum hardly fits into today's changed geopolitical strategies, where fighter aircraft are tasked with CAP (Combat Air Patrols) missions and long-range fighter escorts. Although the installation of a centerline external fuel tank (EFT) can increase the aircraft's autonomy, this configuration has numerous downsides. Since the EFT blocks the discharge route of spent ammunition casings, the tank has to be jettisoned when using the 30mm cannon. This configuration also limits the aircraft's speed to 1.5 Mach and disables the activation of speed brakes. To partly overcome these problems modifications to seven single-seaters enabled the use of two 300 gal (1150 litre) under wing pylons. This configuration however limits the Fulcrums maneuverability to 4 G turns.




Fulcrum force, last call?

Since the German Fulcrums remain Europe's most solicited sparring partners in DACT exercises, they have accumulated many flight hours and are considered the world's most extensively used MiG-29s. In line with its planning to operate these aircraft for a period of twelve years, the German Luftwaffe has elected JG 73 to become the first Eurofighter Wing in its inventory. Whereas the Phantom-equipped JG73/St2 has been disbanded in March this year to free its pilots for Eurofighter conversion training in Manching, the Wing's first squadron will operate the Fulcrum for another two years. This year the Germans will deploy to the USA to visit Nellis AFB, not for participation in Red Flag, but to operate with F-15s and F-16s of 422th Test and Evaluation Wing. During this 'tour' JG73/St1 will furthermore fly against US Navy F-14s and F-18s during their four weeks stay at Key West. Although in 2003 part of the Fulcrum pilots will also start their Eurofighter conversion course, the unit will that year participate in a missile test program at Tyndall AFB. Further vague plans include squadron exchanges with Swedish, Finnish and Swiss units. Currently a letter of acceptance has been signed by the Polish Government to acquire all 23 remaining Fulcrums - one MiG-29 crashed in June 1996 - for the symbolic amount of 1,00 Euro, augmenting the Polish fleet of 22 MiG-29s. Officially the German Luftwaffe will withdraw the Fulcrum fleet at the beginning of April 2004, and if current talks with its neighboring state materialize, German MiG-29s will soldier on with the Polish Air Force until 2015.

Adax
07-11-2007, 03:55 AM
Well, I am looking forward to see this "test" :) My bet is ofcourse F-16, but I think it's too early to do this kind of tests - I don't know hom many experienced pilots on F-16 do we have.
I wish to see a HUD video like those Greek vs. Turk vids on Youtube :)

PeterG
07-11-2007, 04:14 AM
How about Russian pilots in Mig-29s vs Polish pilots in F16s

Remember Russian pilots in combat aviation, only averages some 35-40 hours of flying time each year (official russian figures). Compared to NATO standards, that is hardly enough to maintain flying skills, not to mention combat skills.. NATO pilots would typically fly at least 4 times as much at the minimum. Not sure if the polish pilots is up to typical NATO standard yet. The situation for russian pilots is improving though, with the better economy of Russia these days.

I think the MIG-29 really had an edge, or at the least was equal to any western fighter in the 80s and early 90s, in a dogfight, with the revolutionary R-73 missile (still among the best missiles in the world), and the HMS.

Mishka Zubov
07-11-2007, 05:42 AM
German MiG-29s deployed to Switzerland in 2002 to perform air combat training missions with the F/A-18C/D Hornets.
[cut]


Very interesting, thank you for posting.

As to some other posts: And they say that only fighter pilots have great egos! :-)

"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yeager

oldsoak
07-11-2007, 08:02 AM
" The aircraft's greatest advantage is the AA-11 Archer, a Russian-built infra-red guided missile, which in combination with the pilot's helmet-mounted sight makes the Fulcrum the most feared lethal weapon. This helmet-mounted sight consists of a monocle over the left eye and sensors on helmet and in the cockpit to detect the pilot's head position. Just by looking at the target the pilot can activate a firing solution and the thrust-vectored Archer can be launched up to 45° off the MiG's nose. This superiority is only effective if the enemy is seen as soon as possible. One of the Fulcrum's disadvantages is the visibility from the cockpit. The Hornet drivers soon realized that the MiG-29 pilots had difficulties 'checking six'. Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target, a very tiresome procedure when performed in heavy G dogfights"

EH !?!? - I dont believe that - the HMS slaves the seeker, once the seeker has seen the target, its away and the pilot can switch to something else.
Trust me, Archer is fire and forget and very capable !

Venom PL
07-11-2007, 09:52 AM
Remember Russian pilots in combat aviation, only averages some 35-40 hours of flying time each year (official russian figures). Compared to NATO standards, that is hardly enough to maintain flying skills, not to mention combat skills.. NATO pilots would typically fly at least 4 times as much at the minimum. Not sure if the polish pilots is up to typical NATO standard yet. The situation for Russian pilots is improving though, with the better economy of Russia these days.


You are right Peter


According to Sergei Ivanov average Russian fighter pilot flying time in 2006 was 40-60 hours (in 2005: 10-30 hours).
e.g. Major Valery Troyanov (Su-27 pilot that crashed in Lithuania in 2005) had only 14 hours of flying time in 2005 and 26 in 2004.



Flying time for Polish pilots in 2007 (per pilot):

180 hours - F-16

90 hours – Mig-29 and Su-22

240 hours – C-296M

Jaguar
07-11-2007, 10:05 AM
Of course I doubt the Polish government would be happy about a Russian design winning so I will guess the F-16 will win comfortably.

I´m not so sure but it´s highly probable top brass will do their utmost to accomplish that.

PoGo
07-11-2007, 10:12 AM
It has already been stated but I'll mention it again that the Mig 29s are mostly likely older versions while the f16s are probably Block 52s. It also depends on whether this exercise will be conducted BVR or WVR. However, even though the Mig 29 is said to be slighty more manuverable, I still think the more advanced block 52s would come out on top. Thats just a guess though as I have never flown either aircraft.

Snoshi
07-11-2007, 10:30 AM
Keep us updated of the result!

Liptow
07-11-2007, 11:06 AM
Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target,

R-73 is heat-seeking missile which is fire-and-forget so no radar/IRST illuminating is necessary after launch.

makavelli
07-11-2007, 11:17 AM
$20 on MIG
i accept paypal
:D

DeltaWhisky58
07-11-2007, 11:32 AM
It's all down to the quality and training of the pilots.

80 EAN
07-11-2007, 12:38 PM
I bet everything on F-16s winning this, for obvious political reasons...


In a fair fight even with Block 52s Mig Pilots carry plenty hours of experience no luck for Falcons. Imo always...

Switek
07-11-2007, 04:39 PM
According to my unofficial sources today was held an air battle between Polish pilots on Mig-29s and F-16s.

If we are lucky, tomorrow will be sended some details.

Mr.K
07-11-2007, 04:42 PM
keep us updated:)

tony6
07-11-2007, 04:45 PM
Remember Russian pilots in combat aviation, only averages some 35-40 hours of flying time each year (official russian figures). Compared to NATO standards, that is hardly enough to maintain flying skills, not to mention combat skills.. NATO pilots would typically fly at least 4 times as much at the minimum. Not sure if the polish pilots is up to typical NATO standard yet.
Well, Polish Fulcrum pilots make about 120h a year right now.
For F-16 pilots this year's goal is 180h.

But like I said before 1st ELT pilots are much more experienced in flying the 29s than those from 41st ELT.

Xaito
07-11-2007, 04:55 PM
Well, Polish Fulcrum pilots make about 120h a year right now.
For F-16 pilots this year's goal is 180h.

But like I said before 1st ELT pilots are much more experienced in flying the 29s than those from 41st ELT.

guess why the 1st ELT were not chosen ;)


It's all down to the quality and training of the pilots.
x2

Switek
07-11-2007, 05:02 PM
guess why the 1st ELT were not chosen ;)x2

May be couse they don use Migs eqiupped with special electronic training system comparable to those from F-16. 41 elt uses Mig-29 from Germany (NVA originated), previosly up to dated by Luftwaffe.:roll:

tony6
07-11-2007, 05:45 PM
That may be a reason.

Indiana Jones
07-11-2007, 05:46 PM
This is what Oberstleutnant Johann Köck, commander of JG 73 "Steinhoff", which evaluated the MiG against nearly every fighter in NATOs arsenal, had to say on the subject at hand, highlights by me:


The employment of the MiG-29 suffers from severe inherent constraints. The most obvious limitation is the aircraft?s limited internal fuel capacity of 3500-kg (4400 kg with a centreline tank). We have no air-to-air refuelling capability, and our external tank is both speed and manoeuvre limited. We also have only a limited number of tanks.

"But if we start a mission with 4400-kg of fuel, start-up, taxy and take off takes 400-kg, we need to allow 1000-kg for diversion to an alternate airfield 50-nm away, and 500-kg for the engagement, including one minute in afterburner. That leaves 2500-kg. If we need 15 minutes on station at 420 kts that requires another 1000-kg, leaving 1500-kg for transit. At FL200 (20,000 ft) that gives us a radius of 150-nm, and at FL100 (10,000 ft) we have a radius of only 100-nm.

"Our navigation system is unreliable without TACAN updates and is not very accurate (I?d prefer to call it an estimation system). It relies on triangulation from three TACAN stations, and if you lose one, you effectively lose the system. We can only enter three fixed waypoints, which is inadequate. We also can?t display our ?Bullseye? (known navigation datum, selected randomly for security). For communications we have only one VHF/UHF radio.

"The radar is at least a generation behind the AN/APG-65, and is not line-repairable. If we have a radar problem, the aircraft goes back into the hangar. The radar has a poor display, giving poor situational awareness, and this is compounded by the cockpit ergonomics. The radar has reliability problems and lookdown/shootdown problems. There is poor discrimination between targets flying in formation, and we can?t lock onto the target in trail, only onto the lead. We have only the most limited autonomous operating capability.

"We don?t have the range to conduct HVAA attack missions - and we?re effectively limited from crossing the FLOT (Front Line of Own Troops). Our limited station time and lack of air-to-air refuelling capability effectively rules us out of meaningful air defence missions. Nor are we suited to the sweep escort role. We have a very limited range, especially at high speed and low altitudes, and are limited to 540-kt with external fuel. We have navigation problems, Bullseye control is very difficult and we have only one radio. So if I talk, I ?trash? the package?s radios!

"The only possible missions for NATO?s MiG-29s are as adversary threat aircraft for air combat training, for point defence, and as wing (not lead!) in Mixed Fighter Force Operations. But even then I would still consider the onboard systems too limited, especially the radar, the radar warning receiver, and the navigation system as well as the lack of fuel. These drive the problems we face in tactical scenarios. We suffer from poor presentation of the radar information (which leads to poor situational awareness and identification problems), short BVR weapons range, a bad navigation system and short on- station times."


Positives

"But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft?s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I?m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ?Archer? I can?t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ?Archers?. We didn?t operate kill removal (forcing ?killed? aircraft to leave the fight) since they?d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn?t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!

"They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ?Archer? which can reliably lock on to targets 45deg off-boresight.

"I should stress that I?m talking about our Luftwaffe MiG-29s, which are early aircraft. They also removed the Laszlo data link and the SRO IFF before the aircraft were handed over to us, so in some respects we?re less capable than other contemporary MiG-29s. From what we hear the latest variants are almost a different aircraft. I?d like to see our aircraft get some of the updates being offered by MiG-MAPO. The more powerful engines, better radar, a new navigation system, a data link and an inflight refuelling probe. If we got the new ?Alamo-C? that would also be an improvement - even a two nautical mile boost in range is still ten more seconds to shoot someone else! We won?t get many of those improvements, though we are getting a new IFF manually selectable radio channels, and improvements to the navigation system, including the integration of GPS. Most of our aircraft will be able to carry two underwing fuel tanks, which will also help."

taken from "Jane's At the Controls: MiG-29, by Jon Lake".

It appears that within a very limited parameter, the MiG 29 A can offer sterling service, but as a multirole fighter within NATOs airdefence doctrine, the F16, especially in its later incarnations, considerably eclipses it in utility.

Midav
07-11-2007, 06:07 PM
I agree that with the IRST/HMD/Archer combo, the MiG-29 is an awesome fighting machine close in.

Are Polish F-16's equipped with the JHMCS/AIM-9X combo?

nahimov
07-11-2007, 06:28 PM
I would've loved to see what Luftwaffe officers could have done with Mig-35 against Eurofighters and such.

signatory
07-11-2007, 06:30 PM
Yeap the MIG-29 and F-16 were never designed with the intention to be the single type in theatre. Where MIG-29 cut short jets such as the MIG-25 and MIG-31 offered a more potent ability. NATO had its own doctrine matching every step but really, in short range missile capability NATO did lag behind at the end.

The instantaneous turn rate argument above is also a factor the European F-16 operators need to consider when up against the new Eurocanards (Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon) who all hit 30 degrees per sec. The actual outcome depends on skills and missile systems of course and that can vary quite a bit.

PoGo
07-12-2007, 12:20 AM
This is somewhat moot due to the fact that in combat the F16s would have AWACS and AMRAAMs. The Migs would likely be fireballs before they were within 50 miles. But for arguments sake, yes the Mig is very potent in WVR engagements. Its been said before and I'll say it again, it really depends on the skill and experience of the pilots.

Xaito
07-12-2007, 07:01 AM
This is somewhat moot due to the fact that in combat the F16s would have AWACS and AMRAAMs. The Migs would likely be fireballs before they were within 50 miles. But for arguments sake, yes the Mig is very potent in WVR engagements. Its been said before and I'll say it again, it really depends on the skill and experience of the pilots.

I think poland is nice enough to give their Mig-29 AWACS support too if they would ever need to use them ;)

DeltaWhisky58
07-12-2007, 07:10 AM
This is somewhat moot due to the fact that in combat the F16s would have AWACS and AMRAAMs. The Migs would likely be fireballs before they were within 50 miles. But for arguments sake, yes the Mig is very potent in WVR engagements. Its been said before and I'll say it again, it really depends on the skill and experience of the pilots.

I think poland is nice enough to give their Mig-29 AWACS support too if they would ever need to use them ;)


This thread is fast turning into yet another pointless p!ssing contest. The F-16 has been up against the MiG-29 before flown in both cases by far better and more experienced pilots than those in question here. It has to be recognised that these mock combats between two aircraft types of the Polish Air Force don't really mean anything at all. The disparity between the F-16 and MiG-29 is already well known and documented.

If you can't discuss this in a sensible and gentlemanly manner, the thread will be closed.

PoGo
07-12-2007, 08:33 AM
Sorry, I guess my previous post got taken out of context a little bit. I wasn't trying to be argumentative or turn the thread into a this is better than that battle. I was just stating another fact.

Sharp
07-12-2007, 09:08 AM
Bets, any body?:)
100$ on the russians. they would never let a old colony beat themp-).

daily666
07-12-2007, 10:08 AM
Are Polish F-16's equipped with the JHMCS/AIM-9X combo?


Yes.

Interesting. I wouldn't bet on anybody. Knowing the egos and ambitions of fighter pilots they will surely do whatever they can out of the planes they're flying. I think MiG pilots are more experienced while hi-tec is on the F-16s side.

Switek post some results whenever you can.

Switek
07-12-2007, 10:08 AM
100$ ont the russians. they would never let a old colony beat themp-).

I regretfuly inform you that this time Russians weren't invited to the battle. ;)

Sharp
07-12-2007, 10:34 AM
I regretfuly inform you that this time Russians weren't invited to the battle. ;)

ah, crap.
who is going to pilot the Migs ? Polish pilots?

Switek
07-12-2007, 10:36 AM
ah, crap.
who is going to pilot the Migs ? Polish pilots?

yeap,... go thruout this thread...

Sharp
07-12-2007, 10:40 AM
first topic isn't really clear .. just speak about the base .. thanks for the info anyway :)

Mishka Zubov
07-12-2007, 10:53 AM
This seems somewhat related - looks like Poles like to play. :-)


EMBASSY EVENTS 2007 (US Embassy in Poland)
U.S. and Polish Air Forces Co-host 2007 Poland Game Seminar
11 July 2007

On July 10-13, the United States Air Force (USAF) and Polish Air Force co-hosted the 2007 Poland Game Seminar as part of the USAF Chief of Staff wargame series titled "Unified Engagement."
General William T. Hobbins, Commander, United States Air Forces in Europe (USAFE), and Major General Andrzej Błasik, Commander, Polish Air Force, opened the seminar in Warsaw.

In addition to the United States and Poland, participants included delegations from the Netherlands, Sweden, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey. General (Ret.) John P. Jumper, former Chief of Staff of the USAF, served as the seminar's senior mentor and Dr. Sam Gardner, United States National War College, served as lead facilitator.

The objectives of "Unified Engagement" are to explore future challenges and possibile joint warfighting concepts to counter them; stimulate thinking about the demands and benefits of future combined operations; and develop and strengthen the relationships and cooperation between current and future regional air leaders. The Poland Game Seminar was the first to be hosted in the USAFE area of operations.

source: http://poland.usembassy.gov/events_2007/u.s.-and-polish-air-forces-co-host-2007-poland-game-seminar-11-july-2007

Mishka Zubov
07-12-2007, 03:04 PM
guess why the 1st ELT were not chosen ;)


I know nothing about quality of squadrons of Polish Air Force, but I found this article, "Strange to Say, Global Warfare Declining", http://edefense.blogspot.com/2006_04_09_archive.html, which has some information about Polish MiGs, about the 41st squadron and its experience with this sort of games. This might explain why the 41st was chosen.

There are also quite a few photographs. You might as well browse it before Switek comes with the exciting results... :-)

* edited *
Plenty of information - that was an exaggeration. I should say - "Some"

tony6
07-12-2007, 04:05 PM
The F-16 has been up against the MiG-29 before flown in both cases by far better and more experienced pilots than those in question here. .
Could you amplify that thought DeltaWhisky58?
Because as for F-16 it's obvious but when it comes o MiG-29 I disagree with you. Which "far better and more experienced" pilots of MiG did you mean?

MiG-29s took part in 3 real conflicts. Those were: 1st gulf war, NATO vs Serbia and Ethiopia vs Eritrea. Which of the pilots you consider to be "far better and more experienced" than Polish: Iraqi, Serbian or Eritrean?

Or maybe you were reffering to exercises and test flights on "captured" machines? Well Israeli pilots - who are much more experienced without any doubt - had their possibility to fly 29s but that was just an incident. They couldn't gain too much experience during couple of days. The same story goes with every Western pilot who had possibilty to test the bird - it was just a test.

German Luftwaffe had its adventure with MiGs but it's all history.

Now Polish pilots have been flying 29s since late 80s. We operate the largest fleet of those birds except Russia of course. Our pilots have been flying in many exercises with western pilots adopting NATO standards in training and tactics, they took also a part in Air Policing mission in Lithuania.
The only pilots who are more experienced on MiG-29 type are of course Russians as they've been using them for years but NATO pilots don't have too many occasions to "test" them do they?

Conclusion: on THIS PARTICULAR TYPE OF AIRCRAFT Polish pilots are the most experienced ones you can train with among NATO/allied countries.

Adax
07-12-2007, 04:32 PM
they would never let a old colony beat themp-).
What do you mean by "old colony" ? WTF ?:cantbeli:

DeltaWhisky58
07-12-2007, 06:03 PM
Could you amplify that thought DeltaWhisky58?
Because as for F-16 it's obvious but when it comes o MiG-29 I disagree with you. Which "far better and more experienced" pilots of MiG did you mean?

MiG-29s took part in 3 real conflicts. Those were: 1st gulf war, NATO vs Serbia and Ethiopia vs Eritrea. Which of the pilots you consider to be "far better and more experienced" than Polish: Iraqi, Serbian or Eritrean?

Or maybe you were reffering to exercises and test flights on "captured" machines? Well Israeli pilots - who are much more experienced without any doubt - had their possibility to fly 29s but that was just an incident. They couldn't gain too much experience during couple of days. The same story goes with every Western pilot who had possibilty to test the bird - it was just a test.

German Luftwaffe had its adventure with MiGs but it's all history.

Now Polish pilots have been flying 29s since late 80s. We operate the largest fleet of those birds except Russia of course. Our pilots have been flying in many exercises with western pilots adopting NATO standards in training and tactics, they took also a part in Air Policing mission in Lithuania.
The only pilots who are more experienced on MiG-29 type are of course Russians as they've been using them for years but NATO pilots don't have too many occasions to "test" them do they?

Conclusion: on THIS PARTICULAR TYPE OF AIRCRAFT Polish pilots are the most experienced ones you can train with among NATO/allied countries.

I'm talking MiG-29 Vs. F-16 in training scenarios and I'm certainly not taking sides here. The MiG-29 has been flown against the F-16 of various nations both in Europe and in the USA, primarily using Luftwaffe MiGs, but also those of Poland and other former Warsaw Pact nations.

My comment about pilots did not relate in any way specifically to Polish pilots, but to pilots in general, however I would point out that as there are as yet no high hours Polish F-16 jocks, whereas there must be some real veteran MiG-29 guys, this must have a bearing on potential results.

I would not like to predict the result, but await reports with interest.

Switek
07-12-2007, 06:07 PM
I'm still waiting for official news and unofficial comments from Polish sites, but no info so far...

Mishka Zubov
07-12-2007, 06:46 PM
I'm still waiting for official news and unofficial comments from Polish sites, but no info so far...

You did not forget to offer some 'bakchich', did you?

Monte
07-12-2007, 08:03 PM
Hmm it's hard to say - I think that I'll wait for the results.



Yeah, I also always wait for the results before i place my bets. rofl

tony6
07-13-2007, 01:24 AM
...however I would point out that as there are as yet no high hours Polish F-16 jocks, whereas there must be some real veteran MiG-29 guys, this must have a bearing on potential results.
Agreed on that.
However like I said before: 41st ELT was chosen to this "virgin" fight and those guys are not so experienced as their coleagues from 1st ELT.
When 1st ELT walks in then the results will be interesting.

There were some interesting comments about fighting an F-16 from Polish Fulcrum pilot on one of the Polish forums (NFOW).

Robbee
07-13-2007, 03:23 AM
Here's (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html) an article on F-16/MiG-29 training from 1995 that's worth reading.

Mishka Zubov
07-13-2007, 10:30 AM
Here's (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html) an article on F-16/MiG-29 training from 1995 that's worth reading.

That was an interesting read, thanks! This excerpt caught my attention:


Three pilots from the 510th received backseat rides in one of the JG-73's two-seat MiG-29 trainers. Capt. Sparrow was one of them. "The MiG is harder to fly than the F-16," said Sparrow. "The Soviet airframe is great, but the avionics are not user friendly. After flying in the backseat of the Fulcrum, I got a feel for how spoiled we are in the F-16. I always felt good about the F-16, but I wouldn't trade flying the F-16 for any other aircraft, foreign or domestic.



Slightly off topics, commenting on the above:
If I remember correctly - Chuck Yeager, in his autobiography, recalls a story about the WW2 Russian Yak pilots, who used to display - as a badge of honor - many cuts on their wrists, caused by contacts with sharp edge of their instrument panels. Apparently, Russian factories - in their rush to deliver as many machines as possible to the front lines - did not bother with such minor details as grinding and polishing. [I could not find the story, so treat it as gossip for now]

Back on topic, an excerpt from Chuck Yeager autobiography, chapter "Outflying the Russians":



On our final day in Okinawa, there was an amusing incident between Chuck and two combat pilots who had flown in our Sarbre chase planes from Korea. One of them, a lieutenant colonel, asked Chuck why we didn't attempt to dogfight the MiG with the Sarbre. Yeager told him that the outcome of the dogfight depended more on pilot experience than on an airplane's performance.

The combat pilot just didn't believe it, so Chuck asked him if he would like to fly in the MiG 15 and dogfight Yeager flying in a Sarbre. The colonel agreed and Chuck checked him out in the plane's systems and off they went. Chuck easily got on the MiG's tail and stuck there.

They landed and switched airplanes, Chuck taking off in the MiG and the colonel flying in his own Sarbre. Again, Yeager waxed his tail unmercifully. When they landed, the colonel wes extremelly abashed. He said to Chuck, "I did not think the pilot mattered that much." Chuck grinned and told him, "The pilot with the most experience is gonna whip your ass, Colonel, no matter what you're flying -- it's that simple."

The colonel became known among fighter pilots because the story how Yeager had beaten him really got around. But he lost to the best pilot I've ever seen fly." - Maj. Gen. Albert G. Boyd

MZKT
07-13-2007, 02:19 PM
Well it's not really thrilling to wait on dogfight results between 20 years old MiG-versions and new F-16s. Plus of course the obvious political desire to see F-16 win.
German MiG vs. Tornado trials were more objective.

Kroforit
07-14-2007, 03:59 PM
Im betting on F16s only becuase mig29s probably lack lots of upgrades, experience on Mig29s probably wont help much.

Switek
07-14-2007, 11:51 PM
On Saturday there was something interesting at Krzesiny airbase. I saw an enermous activity on the sky. So let's wait for official results.

In my opinion, Polisg Mig's pilot are still better trained than those of F-16's, couse they got a basic pilotage training, not typical combat. So AFAIK we are gonna compare pilots' skils not planes themselves...

TheArmenian
07-15-2007, 01:39 AM
So AFAIK we are gonna compare pilots' skils not planes themselves...

That sounds true. In addition, some lessons will be learned and conclusions drawn.

If you can post the results quickly, you will be the winner (irrespective of the results) :)

daily666
07-15-2007, 06:03 AM
German MiG vs. Tornado trials were more objective.


How can you judge that if you:
1. don't have any idea what's going on at the moment
2. don't know the ROE of Polish trials
3. don't know the results of dogfights

plus, German Tornados IDS are attack planes not fighters so I see nothing objective with comparing them to a dedicated dogfighter like MiG-29.


:cantbeli:

TheArmenian
07-15-2007, 06:16 AM
plus, German Tornados IDS are attack planes not fighters so I see nothing objective with comparing them to a dedicated dogfighter like MiG-29.


:cantbeli:

Sorry daily666, I have to disagree with that part.

A lot can be learned from fighter vs strike aircraft mock-fights. Of course the fighter is expected to do better, the question is how much better ?

In a real war, confrontation between the two aircraft is bound to happen. They will not avoid each other just because one is a fighter and the other a strike plane.

daily666
07-15-2007, 06:21 AM
Sorry daily666, I have to disagree with that part.

A lot can be learned from fighter vs strike aircraft mock-fights. Of course the fighter is expected to do better, the question is how much better ?

In a real war, confrontation between the two aircraft is bound to happen. They will not avoid each other just because one is a fighter and the other a strike plane.

I do not undermine the value of such tests. But the Mig-29 vs F-16 and Mig-29 vs Tornado IDS comparisons are totally different.

DeltaWhisky58
07-15-2007, 06:31 AM
To repeat a point which has already been made several times here ... ...

This is not about the aircraft, it's a about the aircrew. Polish aircrew haven't flown a combat mission since 1945, therefore the whole topic of this thread is irrelevant. No matter how good the aircraft is, the better pilot is always going to beat the poorer, less experience pilot in a 1:1 dogfight.

Remember, the Polish AF is a former Warsaw Pact Air Force flying a mixture of Russian and Western types, however by now the majority of her aircrew have served and been trained outside the Russian sphere of influence, the major disadvantage as far as they are concerned is lack of flying hours owing to financial constraints.

To see how these guys really shape up, ideally I'd have liked to see the test to have been done as follows:

1. Polish AF F-16 Vs. MiG-29 of Luftwaffe, just prior to retiral.
2. Polish MiG-29 Vs. F-16 of a long-term NATO operator
3. Polish AF MiG-29 Vs. Polish AF F-16

Thus demonstrating the difference not just between the aircraft types in Polish service, but also between the Polish-operated types and experienced independent operators of both types who have always operated outside the Russian sphere of influence.

At the end of the day, it would be far better just spending the money on training, training and more training.

perdurabo
07-15-2007, 06:57 AM
DW you underestimate our pilots, there where numerous trainings aginst diffrent planes of our allies from NATO and our pilots proved their quality. BTW those pilots aren't freshmen! they(from both units) have background in Su22 or MiG21 of course those are diffrent planes but i wouldn't call them unexpirienced, fresh on F-16 yes, fresh in this job definetly no.

DeltaWhisky58
07-15-2007, 07:02 AM
DW you underestimate our pilots, there where numerous trainings aginst diffrent planes of our allies from NATO and our pilots proved their quality. BTW those pilots aren't freshmen! they(from both units) have background in Su22 or MiG21 of course those are diffrent planes but i wouldn't call them unexpirienced, fresh on F-16 yes, fresh in this job definetly no.

No, I don't underestimate your pilots at all - far from it. I'm just suggesting (hypothetically of course) that is such a trial is to be carried out, that it could have been done another way.

The Polish AF have carried out several squadron exchanges with the RAF and I have spoken to RAF pilots who worked with them - their professionalism is not in doubt. Of course they are not inexperienced, just perhaps less experienced than comparable pilots from other NATO nations.

daily666
07-15-2007, 07:05 AM
DW you underestimate our pilots, there where numerous trainings aginst diffrent planes of our allies from NATO and our pilots proved their quality. BTW those pilots aren't freshmen! they(from both units) have background in Su22 or MiG21 of course those are diffrent planes but i wouldn't call them unexpirienced, fresh on F-16 yes, fresh in this job definetly no.

The F-16 pilots of PolAF are actually rookies, and I somehow get DWs point. If they would be against 1ELT MiG-29 operators (the guys have been flying Fulcrums there for something like 20 years) the results would be even more interesting. Our pilots didn't have the same possibility to fly as many hours as old NATO members. Today it's all quite right but in the nineties it was horrid.

Musashi
07-15-2007, 01:05 PM
The Polish AF have carried out several squadron exchanges with the RAF and I have spoken to RAF pilots who worked with them - their professionalism is not in doubt. Of course they are not inexperienced, just perhaps less experienced than comparable pilots from other NATO nations.
I remember reading about Polish MiG-29s vs British Harriers simulated dogfights on a Polish military forum, where Polish forumists wrote our MiGs could not compete with Harriers in a dogfight. The Britons knew how to use their unconventional plane and the Polish side came out poorly with their MiGs. Simply MiG-29 is unable to perform the same manoeuvres as the Harrier.
The same about Germans who came out very poorly in Polish MiG-29s v German Tornadoes or F-4s in simulated dogfights.

tony6
07-15-2007, 01:33 PM
The Polish AF have carried out several squadron exchanges with the RAF and I have spoken to RAF pilots who worked with them - their professionalism is not in doubt. Of course they are not inexperienced, just perhaps less experienced than comparable pilots from other NATO nations.
Agreed on that.
However things are getting better in PAF every year. The NATO membership was the best that could happened to our army.
Like I wrote before Polish Fulcrum pilots make about 120h a year.
For Falcon pilots this year's objective is 180h which is a pretty good number.

perdurabo
07-15-2007, 04:12 PM
i think this isn't about dogfight rather finding ways to cooperate, how to use both types in combat togheter.

Dif
07-17-2007, 04:16 AM
Any news on the results?

tony6
07-17-2007, 04:09 PM
Don't know the details but I asked a friend of mine today (he's in the military aviation press and got many contacts in PAF) and the word is that MiGs got their ass busted. I will let you know when any details come up.

BTW: 41st ELT was chosen most likely because their short experience with 29s - as a counterbalance to short experience with F-16s on the opposite side.

Switek
07-17-2007, 04:23 PM
BTW: 41st ELT was chosen most likely because their short experience with 29s - as a counterbalance to short experience with F-16s on the opposite side.

Well AFAIK, our F-16's pilot training have been mostly based on gaining pilotage skills, not typical combat so far....

Mishka Zubov
07-18-2007, 04:16 PM
Unofficial results are in!
Digged by Switek, translated by MZ:



First confrontation of Polish MiG-29 and F-16: A draw!

The "historical battle" between Malbork's MiG-29 and Krzesiny's F-16 resulted in a draw. Pilots twice went up in the air to confront technical abilities of their machines, as well as their own skills. The sparring ended in a tie.

Malbork's pilots from 41st Tactical Air Squadron, flying the soviet MiG-29, had participated in simulated exercises many times before, but this time they had a very demanding opponent - American warplanes F-16.

Four MiG-29 and four F-16 took part in the confrontation. The F-16 were piloted by Polish pilots from 31th Air Base in Krzesiny - previously trained in USA, and American instructors.

"This was the first time we had an opportunity to train with F-16. This is an excellent warplane. The impressions are amazing" - says Lt. pilot Mariusz Wiąckowski, who was piloting one of the MiGs.

The air space above the North-East Poland, five thousands meters a.s.l, was the place of the simulated battle. In the first so-called air raid, four MiGs and two F-16 participated. The battle was carried at long distance. American planes had the advantage, since they have long distance rockets. Nevertheless, MiG have shown to be more effective since they "shot down" two F-16s, while they lost only one machine.

"Our numerical advantage did not matter. According to a scenario, we were patrolling, and the F-16s supposed to attack us, hence they could choose any tactics they wished" - explains Lt. Wiączkowski.

In the second air raid, four MiGs and four F-16 took part. The American planes were piloted by one Pole and three Americans instructors. This time the American system of early warning, AWACS, was in use. The Malborks's fighters had problems with reading the AWACS. The F-16 planes won.

"The exercise ended in a draw, with a pointer to MiGs. It has shown that the Malbork's pilots have good skills and a tactical sense" - says Eugeniusz Gardas, deputy commander of 1st Tactical Air Brigade in Świdwin.

Jacek Skrobisz - Dziennik Bałtycki

Xaito
07-18-2007, 04:30 PM
Unofficial results are in!
Digged by Switek, translated by MZ:

thanks a lot to you guys for the information.
The results sound good.

daily666
07-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Unofficial results are in!
Digged by Switek, translated by MZ:

Thanks guys. Truly interesting engagement and results! I feel kinda good the result was a draw and hope more comparisons will follow.

Mamont
07-18-2007, 07:05 PM
BTW, will any video be released about this? Maybe even some onboard camera footage?

Adax
07-18-2007, 07:14 PM
BTW, will any video be released about this? Maybe even some onboard camera footage?
Well, I would love to see such thing but to be honest... This is Polish reality - the F-16 are the newest jets in our Air Force so I think polish generals(or so) will classify such video as TOP Secret :bash:

signatory
07-19-2007, 02:16 AM
41st "Tactical" Air Squadron.. and they had never flown against F-16 before?

How is this possible? There's hundreds of MLU and Block 52 F-16's in Europe you can exercise with.

Mishka Zubov
07-19-2007, 03:15 AM
41st "Tactical" Air Squadron.. and they had never flown against F-16 before?

How is this possible? There's hundreds of MLU and Block 52 F-16's in Europe you can exercise with.
I have already posted a link that explains it a little. I am going to expand on it a bit:
Michal Fiszer, one of the FORMER editors of eDefense Online, wrote this in "Situational Awareness blog" on April 13, 2006:


On 12 April 2006 first tactical exercise was conducted by the 41st Tactical Fighter Squadron (Malbork airbase) of 1st Tactical Air Brigade (Swidwin), Polish Air Force, with the use of the squadron’s new aircraft, MiG-29 and MiG-29UB. The squadron received ex-German MiG-29 fighters, presented to Poland by Germany in the eve of the introduction of Eurofighter to German Air Force. The aircraft were considerably wore off and demanded major overhaul. Thought they actually arrived in Poland in summer 2005, only recently first seven were formally issued to the squadron, which withdraw its MiG-21bis and MiG-21UM already in December 2003. In 2005 the pilots and maintenance personnel of 41st TFS underwent intensive training at 1st TFS, which had been flying on MiG-29 since 1987.

The blog entry contains a dozen or so pictures of MiGs and their sparring partners: Su-22. This explains it a bit. As somebody else (Tony?) pointed out in this thread this squadron is not the most experienced squadron, and - as the last paragraph of the above quote says - they were learning from 1st TFS, "which had been flying on MiG-29 since 1987."
source: http://edefense.blogspot.com/2006/04/ex-german-mig-29s-operational-in.html

Mishka Zubov
07-19-2007, 03:52 AM
Speaking about experience of 1st TFS: they were the ones chosen to patrol air space of Baltic states in 2006:

On 1 January 2006, Poland took over the responsibility for air defense of Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia). Since those countries became members of NATO, the other countries have deployed a four-fighters flight tasked with air policing of the Baltic States airspace.

Polish contingent consisted of 4 MiG-29 fighters armed with R-27R, R-73 and R-60M missiles, 6 pilots, 4 GCI navigators, 10 planners/staff officers and 40 ground personnel (maintenance, meteo, armament specialists etc.).

The detachment was provided by 1st Tactical Fighter Squadron from Minsk Mazowiecki.

signatory
07-19-2007, 04:00 AM
Good info, thanks.

Then did the 1st TFS exercise against F-16s in the past ?

daily666
07-19-2007, 04:23 AM
Good info, thanks.

Then did the 1st TFS exercise against F-16s in the past ?

Not against the Polish ones for sure. They were conduncting several excersizes with other NATO members but never heard of simulated dogfights or other A2A engagements.

Mishka Zubov
07-19-2007, 05:03 AM
Good info, thanks.

Then did the 1st TFS exercise against F-16s in the past ?
I've only found this:
June 26-30, 2006, Air Base Malbork, international exercise Lone Eider. Participants: 1st TAF, 41st TAF and British 43rd (F)sqn equipped with F3 Tornado.

BTW: I've also learned that for some technical reasons 1st TFS was relocated to Malbork's Air Base last year, home of 41st TFS. I do not know whether this was a temporary or permanent relocation.

But the 1st TFS are busy bees, taking part in many international exercises and demonstrations. If you wish I can translate excerpts from their log of important events of this year.

Mishka Zubov
07-19-2007, 06:30 AM
I've found it interesting. I hope you'll like it too.



2007-01-04
Practical air training commenced. Taking advantage of a good weather we've made the first "zmiana lotna" this year. [Whatever that means, a flying shift, an air shift, and air change?]

2007-03-14
A flight of MiG-29s participated in a periodic training of the Air Defence System, code name FRUIT FLY. Our planes were part of BLUE FORCE component and carried their tasks under AWACS control.

2007-03-24
Squadron's flight personnel participated in training procedures of Search and Rescue and Combat Search and Rescue.
Next week the MiG-29s from 41st TFS will fly to Mińsk Mazowiecki airfield for traing before the fire exam on one of the training grounds.

2007-04-02
Training at Jagodne training grounds continues. 41st TFS trains with us in shooting to ground targets. Next month both squadrons will meet again - this time at Malbork airport.

2007-04-15
Last week our squadron participated in a periodic training of the Air Defence System, code name FRUIT FLY. Logistic preparations to relocation to Marbork with start next week. The relocation is caused by repair works in our base at Mińsk Mazowiecki.

2007-04-23
After traing in shooting to ground targets, now this is time to commence training in demolition of air targets. This week our squadron will be setting off the air-to-air rockets at the training grounds at Ustka.

2007-05-07
Today our squadron begins an active participation in "NEWFIP 07" (NATO Electronic Warfare Force Integration Programme). The exercise will be carried with participation of active devices of electronic warfare.

2007-05-12
Incoming week will be full of interesting events:
+ Participation of our commander in the annual meeting of commanders of air units ("ZLOT 2007"), at Poznan's Air Base.
+ Participation of our squadron in the monthly training of the Air Defence System, with AWACS.
+ Beginning of relocation to Malbork.
+ Pilots' Weekend, organized by city of Mińsk Mazowiecki, 23rd Air Base and 1st TFS. Welcome to all!

2007-05-27
Our squadron participates in tactical exercise ORZEŁ 07 (Eagle 07). The goal is a preparation of commanders and military units to joint defensive operations on the territory of our country.

2007-06-17
Cpt. pilot Artur KAŁKO demonstrated solo handling of MiG-29 at Air Show in Kowno, Lithuania.

2007-06-29
One of the Hollywood directors, Andrzej Bartkowiak, wants to shoot a movie about Merian Cooper, a deputy commander of 7th Battle Squadron "Thaddeus Kosciuszko", in years 1919-1920. The pilots of so-called "Kosciuszko Squadron" fought later in WW2 as a part of the famous "Squadron 303". Our squadron carries the traditions of "Kosciuszko Squadron". Worth noticing is the fact that our commander has opened a process of recognition of "Kosciuszko Squadron" insignia as our official emblem.

source: http://www.1elt.minskmaz.pl/

http://www.ccsu.edu/Kosciuszko/K-WWI-insig.jpg

In tribute to the famous Pole Tadeusz Kosciuszko, who had served with such distinction in the American Revolution, the squadron took his name. Thus was born the famous “Kosciuszko Squadron” of the Polish Air Force, a largely American contingent consciously repaying the great Pole for his service in the American cause by aiding Poland in its time of need. The squadron emblem, a distinctive Polish four-cornered cap and crossed scythes on a field of thirteen stars, combined powerful Polish and American symbols. The cap and scythes commemorated Kosciuszko’s famous victory over the Russians in 1794, which owed much to the local peasantry’s gallant charge, and the 13 stars represented the original American colonies.

tony6
07-19-2007, 04:39 PM
Then did the 1st TFS exercise against F-16s in the past ?
Yes, they did.
Like I wrote in one of my previous posts you can find some interesting comments on fighting F-16s by 1st ELT pilot (Toyo) on Polish NFOW forum.
In a few words:
he had possibility to fight F-16 one on one, two MiGs against one 16 and one MiG against two F-16s (which he referred as 'total hardcore').
He said that most difficult thing in fighting against F-16 is to spot it - the plane is small and its low-vis paint scheme makes it hard to notice. Also F-16 restores the speed faster than MiG (its turbine's dynamics is better) and its 'quicker on the ailerons' (which is obvious - this is one engine plane). MiG during the fight in his opinion looks very large, its paint scheme makes it far more visible and above that - it smokes like hell.
According to his words results of these dogfight were 'various' - sometimes there was no 'score' - but in this kind of outcome in the real war the winner would be the one with more fuel on board - and it would never be MiG.

Musashi
07-24-2007, 03:04 PM
Like I wrote in one of my previous posts you can find some interesting comments on fighting F-16s by 1st ELT pilot (Toyo) on Polish NFOW forum.
In a few words:
he had possibility to fight F-16 one on one, two MiGs against one 16 and one MiG against two F-16s (which he referred as 'total hardcore').
He said that most difficult thing in fighting against F-16 is to spot it - the plane is small and its low-vis paint scheme makes it hard to notice. Also F-16 restores the speed faster than MiG (its turbine's dynamics is better) and its 'quicker on the ailerons' (which is obvious - this is one engine plane). MiG during the fight in his opinion looks very large, its paint scheme makes it far more visible and above that - it smokes like hell.
According to his words results of these dogfight were 'various' - sometimes there was no 'score' - but in this kind of outcome in the real war the winner would be the one with more fuel on board - and it would never be MiG.
Do you remember the trick, that the Polish MiG-29 pilots were using? As MiG-29 generates a lot of smoke from its engines after turning on an afterburner our pilots decided to turn it into an advantage. They were turning on their afterburners on purpose to generate even more smoke and then they turned off the afterburners generating a very little of smoke and flied away. The F-16 pilots (including very experienced American instructors) seeing such a big amount of smoke thought our MiGs were there neglecting their radars. So they flied to check the smoke and had MiGs on their six p-)