Israeli teenagers are a nuisance in Poland

[Chrzaszcz]

Something strange and rather disturbing:

http://polishpress.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/israeli-teenagers-are-a-nuisance-in-poland


Apart of whole case, one thing is specially interesting: can Israeli security agents of SHABAK officially and legally use handguns and handcuffs on Polish territory? I wonder about similar situations in other European countries like Germany or France for example.

[Herrmannek]

Maybe if they have diplomatic status.. But that would mean guards are well above untouchable level, not matter how nasty they behave can't do thing about that... We shouldn't allow such things for bunch of ordinary kids....

[kamaz]

sounds like a round of unconfirmed hearsay. i dont buy it.

[Herrmannek]

sounds like a round of unconfirmed hearsay. i dont buy it.

Forgot to add that... But if Israeli kids as are nasty as Brits everything possible :)

[kamaz]

Forgot to add that... But if Israeli kids as are nasty as Brits everything possible :)

english born israelis are the worst lol. but they dont soccer riot on sabbath.

[NimDod]

Apart of whole case, one thing is specially interesting: can Israeli security agents of SHABAK officially and legally use handguns and handcuffs on Polish territory? I wonder about similar situations in other European countries like Germany or France for example.

these school trips to Poland started somewhere in the early 90's, and in some areas it Poland it could be dangerous (at least thats what they told us).
I dont know how its like today, but when I was there 10 years ago, the Shabak guy who escorted told us that from time to time, the locals would get pissed at the Israeli group and if things get real serious and he has to pull his guy, he will immediately get kicked out of the country.

[Stormz_STA]

and in some areas it Poland it could be dangerous (at least thats what they told us).
the locals would get pissed at the Israeli group

Just a bunch of lies. I wonder why they would tell you that bullsi!t.

[NimDod]

Just a bunch of lies. I wonder why they would tell you that bullsi!t.

I dont know how its like today, but I guess back then it was different.
my group didnt encounter any physical violence, but in one area we received some swearing and other type of gestures. the class who went there a year later said that in the same place, firecrackers were thrown at them.

my older sister's class was one of the first ones to go there (in 1993, I think) and she said they were received very nicely and the people there were very happy to see some tourists.

so I guess it depends on the time and people they meet.
anyway, I can see how these kids become a nuisance. our education system stinks. guys from my class missbehaved too, I have to add.

[Ivan le Fou]

english born israelis are the worst lol. but they dont soccer riot on sabbath.

But the italian born israelis do. p-)

[little icebear]

If the conditions are as terrible as stated in this article, than I guess this is the key sentence:


‘These trips are mostly a huge business for people who organise them’ - says Lili Haber - ‘including Israeli bodyguards’.

Fear is a big business.

[NLANLA]

can Israeli security agents of SHABAK officially and legally use handguns and handcuffs on Polish territory? I wonder about similar situations in other European countries like Germany or France for example.
I reckon foreign security people could, if authorized by the Ministry of the Interior (MSWIA, if I'm correct) and the MOFA (MSZ). Most, if not all, European countries would not allow it by default, but I am pretty sure that exceptions can be (and are being) made in certain cases (most notably the US and Israel). Of course, the host country usually will not openly admit or discuss these.

[gilgoul]

There are several issues mixed around here.
Some Israeli kids behave really bad during their trips, it has nothing to do with Poland, or anywhere else, they just got a bad education and are those little "arsim" (punks) that deserve a beating once in a while.
About security restrictions and exceptions made to "special" israeli needs, I guess a blanket agreement isn't an option, and only a case by case approach could be functioning.
Now, even if those trips could be designed differently in order to change the relation between the Israelis and the Poles, and have some exchange or meetings, it should be reminded that they are not about Poland of today, but about the almost complete destruction of an almost millennium old community only two generations ago.

[Hunterhr]

Really, you could have cut the first and last two words out of this topic title.

[Sevryn]

Kids misbehave but that happeneds sometimes, but in my opinion that's not even the issue; the problem here is that those tours are guided by SHIn Beit or Israeli security forces who don't even speak Polish. Their tour security forces treat Poles who are in their own country like they treat Palestinians.

And that in my opinion is ridiculous, there was recently an incident where a pole told the Tour to leave his property and the Shin Beit cuffed her and then harassed the person who was within his rights. When the Jews come to Poland they think it's basically Palestine and they're justified to do whatever they want because supposedly accoding to them every single polish person is antisemetic and responsible for their suffering during WWII.

[NimDod]

Kids misbehave but that happeneds sometimes, but in my opinion that's not even the issue; the problem here is that those tours are guided by SHIn Beit or Israeli security forces who don't even speak Polish.
the tours are not guided by the Shin-Beit, but by a Polish guide. I could post you the picture of the guide we had, but I dont think she'd like that.
I dont remember our security guard ever talked to a Polish person, and he adviced us all to do the same.
our Polish guide lady did everything for us. most people we met couldnt speak english anyway.



Their tour security forces treat Poles who are in their own country like they treat Palestinians.
whoops. that cat is out of the bag.
the fact that you bring out the Palestinian issue that has nothing to do with this one show precisely what is your point of view of things.



And that in my opinion is ridiculous, there was recently an incident where a pole told the Tour to leave his property and the Shin Beit cuffed her and then harassed the person who was within his rights.
I find this highly unlikely. such incident would result in the termination of work of that Shin Beit person in Poland, and I find it very unlikely that someone would risk his job, just for the hell of it.
in other words, got any links to back it up?



When the Jews come to Poland they think it's basically Palestine and they're justified to do whatever they want because supposedly accoding to them every single polish person is antisemetic and responsible for their suffering during WWII.
well, I can understand why Polish people dont like the noisy Israeli kids, walking in their streets with blue shirt with David shilds on them, holding Israeli flags and make alot of noise, and can even understand why Polish people who own inharited property that used to belong to the Polish jews might dont like to see the descendants of those Jews, demanding their family's stolen property back (no matter who stole it - the Nazies, the Communists or the Polish goverment at that time).

what bothers me the most is how some Polish people, unlike the Germen, never acknowledged the fact that some of their grandparents performed warcrimes during the war. in some cases it was for their own survival (and people of all nations did terrible things during those hard times), but in other cases it was for plain personal gain.

I dont think that every polish person is antisemetic and responsible for the Jew's suffering during WWII, but no one can claim that some poles didnt help the Nazies. on the other hand, there were more Poles that saved jews than anyone.

these tours from Israel are not to show how bad the Poles were (and some of its goals was to show Poland today, with its culture, museum and beauty)
the main problem with it is mosly the behavior of the kids participating in it, which is terrible in so many cases. I personally hope they start guiding group who go to these trips, because it doesnt look good.

[theholeinthedonut]

The last four years i spent a month in summer taking care of a programm working with jewish Israeli, bedouin Israeli and Palestinian kids,those kids didn't behave worse then any other kids i worked with, there was a different temprament and a different cultural background, that could be noticed but apart from that business as usual. We have kids in our country who behave like arses and there are in every other country so.... .At the moment a local teacher from grammar school is standing trial and he most probably will have to go to jail and will loose his job because he started to strangle a 15 year old student with an electric appliance cable(no corporal damage)! They were on a school trip visiting Auschwitz and the youngster behaved so bad during the visit and was even getting worse at the youth hostel that the teacher lost his grip and went ape****, but a friend who witnessed the whole affair as an educator working in the same school told me that it should be the kid as well as his parents who should be in court. So same **** every where.

[Smok]

Apart of whole case, one thing is specially interesting: can Israeli security agents of SHABAK officially and legally use handguns and handcuffs on Polish territory?

No they can't. But they have diplomatic passports so our police can't do anything.
In this case Jews aren't playing fair game.

[Sevryn]

This is basically the same article but was posted in Jerusalem Post, i posted this for those who think this is just a few Polish Antisemites making all this stuff up.

Jerusalem Post Article.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708676019&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


My concearn here is basically the security surrounding these groups, as well as the kids who come here to our country and bisbehave because they feel that it's justified.

This sort of stuff happeneds routinely in Krakow and Auszwitz(Oswiencim), the security guards act like IDF personel running checkpoints in westbank. This is something that creates problems not only for the residents but other turists as well.

When you have Jewish groups supporting the idea that "All Polish people are Antisemites, and evil nazi collaborators" and when you put this kind of coriculum into the heads of the Kids who come to our country and then suffer emotional breakdown and flip out by mistreating a simple stewardess on a plane by slapping her across the face, burning down people's property, causing commotion and assaulting people. The problem is not us Poles who are speaking out against this kind of behavior.

[NimDod]

thanks for the link, Sevryn

I totally agree with what Magdziak-Miszewska said:


There is a need for Polish and Israeli officials to work better together," she said.
...
There are cases in which there are no physical or personal dangers, and because the security [agents] do not understand the Poles, it is seen as a threat," she said.
Magdziak-Miszewska told the Post that a joint Polish-Israeli effort was in the works to better train Israeli security personnel headed to Poland. "We will sign an agreement with the Israeli security services," because as it is now, "they do not speak the language and do not know our customs," she said. Such a program would improve the guards' situation management and the negative perception Israelis have of Poland, which lead to an over-estimation of the "dangers" there.


I know some of the cases that were mentioned, and I agree that the office that is responsible for those educational trips should have taken care of the students' preparation for this trip.
the way some of these kids act is not only a shame for Israel, but to the whole holocaust memorial effort as well.

[NLANLA]

(...) The problem here is that those tours are guided by SHIn Beit or Israeli security forces who don't even speak Polish. Their tour security forces treat Poles who are in their own country like they treat Palestinians.
All right, let's leave the Palestinian question out of the equation for a moment :roll:. Point is, they can (and do) behave like that because your own Polish government somehow lets them. If this bothers you, I'd suggest writing to your congressman (or whatever your chosen representatives are called) and have him/her address this in Parliament...

[Sevryn]

I know some of the cases that were mentioned, and I agree that the office that is responsible for those educational trips should have taken care of the students' preparation for this trip.
the way some of these kids act is not only a shame for Israel, but to the whole holocaust memorial effort as well.

The main thing is that those Kids suffer emotional breakdown, but reguardless they should be thought the right thing but instead they get their head filled with the idea that they're going to a war zone a place where the Evil Poles were supposedly responsible for the murder of 6 million Jews. Their state of mental health does not help, and whats worse you got these security guards with them coming with them who would normally be responsible overseeing west bank check points.

2 things have to happened, educate the kids and train the guards. THe problem is worse then most people think, and should not be brushed aside.


All right, let's leave the Palestinian question out of the equation for a moment :roll:. Point is, they can (and do) behave like that because your own Polish government somehow lets them. If this bothers you, I'd suggest writing to your congressman (or whatever your chosen representatives are called) and have him/her address this in Parliament...

Not true we don't let them, we have been pretty adamant about this issue for quite some time. Laying the balme on Poles and justifing that kind of behavior is wrong, teaching kids like this that all Polish people are Evil and they're worse then the Nazis adds to that problem.

[NimDod]

The main thing is that those Kids suffer emotional breakdown, but reguardless they should be thought the right thing but instead they get their head filled with the idea that they're going to a war zone a place where the Evil Poles were supposedly responsible for the murder of 6 million Jews. Their state of mental health does not help, and whats worse you got these security guards with them coming with them who would normally be responsible overseeing west bank check points.

2 things have to happened, educate the kids and train the guards. THe problem is worse then most people think, and should not be brushed aside.



Not true we don't let them, we have been pretty adamant about this issue for quite some time. Laying the balme on Poles and justifing that kind of behavior is wrong, teaching kids like this that all Polish people are Evil and they're worse then the Nazis adds to that problem.

I dont know where you got the Idea that these student are being tought that all Polish people are Evil and they're worse then the Nazis.

as for the guards, normally they woudlnt be responsible overseeing any check points. they would probebly act a security for public transportation, as Airports Security, bodyguards for low ranked politicians. jobs that take restraint and quick reactions.
where did you get the idea of checkpoints anyhow? they are not soldiers, nor Boarder Police officers.

seems that the problem is more of poor comunications. I think they should consider hiring a Loacal security person, fluid in English in addition to the Israeli one. could solve some of those situation where better understaning of the locals is needed.

[California Joe]

Kids are kids, some act better than others. It's a simple universal fact. I had a couple of kids on my soccer team that I would have liked to have strangled a few times.

[Sevryn]

where did you get the idea of checkpoints anyhow? they are not soldiers, nor Boarder Police officers.

I thought they were IDF security forces.



seems that the problem is more of poor comunications. I think they should consider hiring a Loacal security person, fluid in English in addition to the Israeli one. could solve some of those situation where better understaning of the locals is needed.

Yeah a good idea but the Israeli Tour groups don't do that, they bring their own security guards from Israel who speak no polish and don't know polish laws.

[NLANLA]

Point is, they can (and do) behave like that because your own Polish government somehow lets them
Not true we don't let them, we have been pretty adamant about this issue for quite some time
Somehow, I find this hard to believe. Poland is still a sovereign nation, isn't it ? So how would you explain Israeli security agents operating on Polish soil without some form of authorisation/control/oversight of the Polish government ? I admit it would cause some kind of diplomatic incident, though...


I thought they were IDF security forces
Depends... they could also be part of an accredited private Israeli security organisation. Plenty of those.

[NimDod]

Somehow, I find this hard to believe. Poland is still a sovereign nation, isn't it ? So how would you explain Israeli security agents operating on Polish soil without some form of authorisation/control/oversight of the Polish government ? I admit it would cause some kind of diplomatic incident, though...
I think its the same deal as with bodyguards or armed air marshals; all of which serv in the Shin Beit. maybe at the time when the whole tours to Poland project started, it wasnt such a nuisance.
the kids can be a pain in the ass, but I find it difficult to understand why this bothers our Polish members so much.
If those groups hired local security personal instead, whould it be any different? what if they hired non-Israeli and non Polish armed security men?



Depends... they could also be part of an accredited private Israeli security organisation. Plenty of those.
no, its Shin Beit. they are also identified by the loacal Police by some recognition they use.
the Israeli school system became extra careful after an incident in 97, where a Jordanian soldier opened fire and murdered 7 Israeli schoolgirls and their teacher on a school trip to a place called "the valley of peace". they had no aremed security there on that time (the Jordanians didnt agree to that) and ever since, the security regulations in school trips became much tougher. in the past, school trips in Israel could be accompanied by just about anyone, but todays, armed, trained security personal are mandatory.

[NLANLA]

no, its Shin Beit.
I already tought it might be Shin Bet - just didn't know whether the Israeli government would deploy them for school trips as well ;-)...


they are also identified by the loacal Police by some recognition they use.
Same here...


In the past, school trips in Israel could be accompanied by just about anyone, but todays, armed, trained security personal are mandatory.
Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression, however, that "armed, trained security personnel" could also mean private companies.

[NimDod]

however, that "armed, trained security personnel" could also mean private companies.

I have to go now, but if any of the Israeli memebers have the time, ask them to translate this:
http://www.education.gov.il/edun_doc/sd10ak5_3_32.htm

its the demands list for an armed escort, in the Israeli Education ministary protocols.
couldnt find it in English. we have terrible Egoverment services in here.

[Herrmannek]

Kids are kids, some act better than others. It's a simple universal fact. I had a couple of kids on my soccer team that I would have liked to have strangled a few times.
This would be good place to make a joke about dead hookers and no space left in the trunk :)

[martinexsquaddie]

don't actually think Poland has that many Arabs living there so why the over the top armed security.
try that in the UK and you'd be told where to go.
seems like a nice little earner bodyguard wages for babysitting a group of kids in the war zone that is er Poland:)
no wonder poles are getting angry teenagers can be a pain anywhere but if they know they got armed back up nightmare :(

[NimDod]

don't actually think Poland has that many Arabs living there so why the over the top armed security.
try that in the UK and you'd be told where to go.
I dont think the security is over the top. a guy armed with a pistol isnt that much for a group that could contain more then a 100 students. its pretty light, compared to the security for a tour inside Israel.
and whatever the reasons were, the fact that its known that every one of those groups has protection could make someone who would want to attack such a group think again.



seems like a nice little earner bodyguard wages for babysitting a group of kids in the war zone that is er Poland:)
these are great jobs for anyone who finnished his military service as a commander and wants to save up money for univercity (and dont mind risking his life for a further periot of time).
the real pay, though, comes from bodyguarding, or security work in risky areas in the WestBank, or the boarder crossings with Gaza.

[Herrmannek]

There is probably less Arabs in Poland than Jews, and when one of those Jewish trips comes to Poland number of the Jews skyrockets two fold :)

[shadowsrider]

Unfortunatelly there were numerous cases of violence done by Israeli guards, the most known case is using it against a Polish Jew who wanted to pray in synagogue. Poland in comparision to Israel is very safe, some my Jewish friends visited it and they agree. Also Jewish official places: cultural, synagogues do not require guards here which is almost exception in Europe.
As Polish citizen I do not like the fact that citizens of other country walk in our streets in arms! I am really a friend of Jews but it seems that our authorities should demand more respect.