UK expels four Russian diplomats

[theholeinthedonut]

Britain is going to expel 4 Russian Diplomats over the Litwinenko/Rugowoi affair.
Sorry only a german source.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,494729,00.html

[DeltaWhisky58]

UK expels four Russian diplomats

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42377000/jpg/_42377326_litvinenko_bbc.jpg
Mr Litvinenko died in a London hospital in November 2006

The UK is to expel four diplomats from the Russian embassy in London after Moscow refused to extradite the suspect in the murder of Alexander Litvinenko.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband also said co-operation with Russia on a range of issues was under review.

Prosecutors want Andrei Lugovoi, an ex-KGB officer, to face trial in the UK. He denies involvement.

Former KGB agent Mr Litvinenko died of exposure to radioactive polonium-210 in London in November 2006.

The Foreign Office has not named the four Russian diplomats, but the BBC understands they are intelligence officers.

Mr Miliband told MPs Russia was an important ally and the situation was one that Britain had "not sought and does not welcome".

'Extremely disappointing'

But he said it was necessary to send a "clear and proportionate signal" to Russia, about the seriousness with which Britain regarded the matter.

"Visa facilitation negotiations" have also been suspended, he said.

Under the Council of Europe European Convention on Extradition 1957, the Russians have the right to refuse the extradition of a citizen.

But Mr Miliband said the refusal had been "extremely disappointing" and both the UN and EU had reported concerns that Russia was applying the law selectively.

The Convention gives the UK the right to request that the investigation be taken on by the Russian authorities.

However, Sir Ken Macdonald, the UK's director of public prosecutions, rejected an offer from Moscow to try Mr Lugovoi in Russia.

BBC News Online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6901346.stm)

[Susumu]

UK has not extradited a couple of people that were wanted by Russia too, so what did they expect?
There is a possibility of a trial in Russia but the UK refuses that too - UK's not exactly in the position to complain I'd say. :|

[DeltaWhisky58]

UK has not extradited a couple of people that were wanted by Russia too, so what did they expect?
There is a possibility of a trial in Russia but the UK refuses that too - UK's not exactly in the position to complain I'd say. :|

Fortunately the UK is not consulting you in this case. :bash:

[Kroforit]

Fortunately the UK is not consulting you in this case. :bash:
lol


............

[DaGreatRV]

I have to say that when diplomats get kicked out, it's getting serious! :-(

[valtrex]

I have to say that when diplomats get kicked out, it's getting serious! :-(

Not so serious if they're from middle or lower ranking staff. It's more a symbolic political gesture

[nnnn87]

Fortunately the UK is not consulting you in this case. :bash:
wow, this is the true democratic style of the discussion. NOT

[PrivatePyle]

UK has not extradited a couple of people that were wanted by Russia too, so what did they expect?
There is a possibility of a trial in Russia but the UK refuses that too - UK's not exactly in the position to complain I'd say. :|

The crime occured in in Britian, therefore the British judicial system should handle it, the only reason Russia offered is because they knew full well we would not do it that way, in my opinion.

[Susumu]

Fortunately the UK is not consulting you in this case. :bash:

no need to be unpleasant - I just said what I think and am not trying to tell the UK what they have to do :)

The crime occured in in Britian, therefore the British judicial system should handle it, the only reason Russia offered is because they knew full well we would not do it that way, in my opinion.
thats right - it would be better if the british judical system would get an opportunity to handle it but an offer of a trial in Russia is more then what Russia got after asking for Litvinenko and Beresowski - I think its understandable that Russia's motivation to cooperate did not get higher because of that.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I'm not being unpleasant, I'm just pointing out that your utterly pointless comment was not necessary.

[nahimov]

Would UK be outraged if Russia expels UK diplomats because Berezovsky is not extradited?

[theholeinthedonut]

Would UK be outraged if Russia expels UK diplomats because Berezovsky is not extradited?

Most probably not.

[PrivatePyle]

Would UK be outraged if Russia expels UK diplomats because Berezovsky is not extradited?

Did any UK diplomats get expelled when they were apparently spying? I cant remember.

[Arbody]

Did any UK diplomats get expelled when they were apparently spying? I cant remember.


He he :) no they not , Putin sad that if Russia expelled that spy ,UK can send someone better .

[CHERK]

"The UK is to expel four Russian diplomats in response to Moscow's refusal to extradite the prime suspect in the murder of Alexander Litvinenko.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband also said co-operation with Russia on a range of issues was under review.
Prosecutors want Andrei Lugovoi, an ex-KGB officer, to face trial in the UK. He denies involvement.
Moscow condemned the UK's position as "immoral" and said the expulsions would have "serious consequences".
Former KGB agent Mr Litvinenko died of exposure to radioactive polonium-210 in London in November 2006.

The Foreign Office has not named the four Russian diplomats, but the BBC understands they are intelligence officers.
Mr Miliband told MPs Russia was an important ally and the situation was one that Britain had "not sought and does not welcome". But he said it was necessary to send a "clear and proportionate signal" to Russia, about the seriousness with which Britain regarded the matter.

Russia's Foreign Ministry chief spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said: "London's position is immoral. "Moreover, in London they should clearly realise that such provocative actions masterminded by the British authorities will not be left without an answer and cannot but entail the most serious consequences for Russian-British relations".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6901346.stm

[Susumu]

I'm not being unpleasant, I'm just pointing out that your utterly pointless comment was not necessary.

its not pointless if it could be a reason for Russia's decision - and you can't rule out that it is.

[Bacilluspolymyxa]

This clash was inevitable we harbour Russian bandits they refuse to hand over a suspect in high level killing, not about to be resolved anytime soon.

[Digimon]

BBC, of course, does not disappoint - it cannot miss an opportunity to make it appear that Russia is refusing to extradite Lugovoi deliberately. BBC remembers to mention that under the 1957 European Convention on Extradition Russia can refuse to extradite, but they forget to mention that Russian constitution prohibits extradition. The appearance is that the refusal to extradite is a choice rather than compliance with the primary law of the state.

[CMN]

Maybe next time they could enrich Gordon...

[Andromeda]

Well finally someone mentioned who exactly Mr. Boris Abramowitch Beresowski is. Yes a bandit, a common criminal! So if the UK wants Litvinenko's killer they have to co-operate to. I mean seriously they are no one to demand anything of Russia because they also haven't been "diplomatic". A trade at best is what they'll get, like in the cold war days, a spy for another spy. I highly doubt thought that the UK is willing to give up one of it wealthiest citizen to the Russian government so this situation is really futile.

[PrivatePyle]

He he :) no they not , Putin sad that if Russia expelled that spy ,UK can send someone better .

:D may aswell let that failed one stay then.

[FutureGrunt]

UK expels four Russian diplomats

Wow does this mean UK now will expel all those Chechen terrorists and organized crime bosses too? Yay!!!

[Flamming_Python]

This could perhaps be much more related to the recent Gazprom/TNK-BP controversy than Litvinenko.

Sure Lugovoi is wanted by Britain, and the Russians have refused to extradite him.

Berezovsky (and quite a few others) is also wanted by Russia, and the British have refused to extradite him.

AFAIK, In both cases, the constitution forbids extraditing a citizen to stand trial in another country.

As for a trade, probably out of the question. Britain won't give away Berezovsky, and Russia won't leave Lugovoi out to dry. Besides, Berezovsky fled to Israel as soon as this turned into a political row.

[SomeGeek]

BBC, of course, does not disappoint - it cannot miss an opportunity to make it appear that Russia is refusing to extradite Lugovoi deliberately. BBC remembers to mention that under the 1957 European Convention on Extradition Russia can refuse to extradite, but they forget to mention that Russian constitution prohibits extradition. The appearance is that the refusal to extradite is a choice rather than compliance with the primary law of the state.

hmmm, it seems like a strange "law". The Russians can't extradite anywhere? Seems like it allows Russians carte blanch to commit "crimes" any where abroad.

Probably just an unintended loophole; the Russians are so new to democracy! The crime can't be an action by the state...why would they do such a thing?

The obvious fix is to deny visas to Russian citizens. Who knows which of them will commit a crime?

[Zoomie]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116271

[SomeGeek]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116271

Oh sorry, its Russian gangs that did it. Too bad can't tell who is in a Russian gang and who isn't.

[GazB]

Can't see that he Brits have a leg to stand on. They allege a Russian is responsible for killing another Russian in Britain and want that Russian extradicted, yet they wont consider returning several Russian criminals to Russia to face trial. Sounds very hippocritical to me. For each criminal the UK refused to return perhaps the best response is to do the same and expell 4 UK diplomats from Russia... or perhaps 6 for each criminal. I would doubt Britian is a pivotal strategic partner in the west for Russia... they are far too close to the US for that to be possible.

[Sergei]

This clash was inevitable we harbour Russian bandits they refuse to hand over a suspect in high level killing, not about to be resolved anytime soon.

You mean Berezovsky and Zakaev and many others? Yep, that's totally fecked up.

You should demand your government not to harbor undesirables and let the Russian court system handle them. ;)

[Sergei]

Can't see that he Brits have a leg to stand on. They allege a Russian is responsible for killing another Russian in Britain and want that Russian extradicted, yet they wont consider returning several Russian criminals to Russia to face trial. Sounds very hippocritical to me. For each criminal the UK refused to return perhaps the best response is to do the same and expell 4 UK diplomats from Russia... or perhaps 6 for each criminal. I would doubt Britian is a pivotal strategic partner in the west for Russia... they are far too close to the US for that to be possible.


You should look elsewhere. Shell and BP had their arses kicked really bad with the Stockman and Sahalin oil and gas deals.
This is what the whole outrage is all about, not some former FSB/turned MI6 operative.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I have to say that when diplomats get kicked out, it's getting serious! :-(

It's getting serious when the Russian government murder someone in London.
Wasn't Litvinenko a British citizen? What about all the other hundreds of British and other foreign citizens who have been put at vastly increased risk of cancer following exposure to polonium.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You should look elsewhere. Shell and BP had their arses kicked really bad with the Stockman and Sahalin oil and gas deals.
This is what the whole outrage is all about, not some former FSB/turned MI6 operative.

Yes Russians have proved they are not reliable business partners. They are going to have to grow up.

[Sergei]

Yes Russians have proved they are not reliable business partners. They are going to have to grow up.

And British just proved that they are vultures. The Sahalin deal was signed when Russia was on one leg and falling - so the terms and conditions were not favorable to Russia at all.

But Russians grew up all right and know what to expect from the brits from now on. It is "wild capitalism" baby.

Oh, and UK should check the Article 61 of the Russian Constitution before demanding extradiction of any of the Russian citizens. And go about its business.

[Sergei]

It's getting serious when the Russian government murder someone in London.
Wasn't Litvinenko a British citizen? What about all the other hundreds of British and other foreign citizens who have been put at vastly increased risk of cancer following exposure to polonium.

Unless you have some evidence, it is empty accusations which have been thrown around by you, the UK mass media and your government, which I have to believe based on the "good attitude" of UK towards Russia or what?

[Dif]

Well, I hear that russian constitution does not allow russian citizens to be expelled to third countries for any reason. If it's true, then I do not understand aggressive moves from UK side. Does UK want russians to change their constitution in order to please UK? Sounds dodgy. I want UK to legalize marijuana, otherwise we send their diplomats back too :)

[LazyLob]

Unless you have some evidence, it is empty accusations which have been thrown around by you, the UK mass media and your government, which I have to believe based on the "good attitude" of UK towards Russia or what?

Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far away…………………….

[Sergei]

Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far away…………………….

What happened to the "fair trial"? Oh year, this is only for the guys in "ze west" right?
"These decisions testify, that the investigation of "Litvinenko's Case" from the very beginning carried a political aspect", - said Lugovoi on Monday.
The businessman again denied any involvement in the "Litvinenko's Case". "Nobody has invited me to Great Britain, I was accused in absentia, sort of given as a fact, and I wasn't given a chance to defend myself", - said Lugovoi // РИА «Новости»

[www.gazeta.ru]


So much for the "fair british trial".

P.S. I have a feeling that this whole case will make UK look very very stupid, what they are trying to do now is "save face" and doing a bad job at it.

[Nightsky]

well, perfectly reasonable position by Russia.
The Brits refuse to extradite Sakajew apparently being searched for involvment in "terror acts" (I leave this definition to others) in chechnia and there is the beresowski-case.
Now on the other hand Britain demands extradition of a Russian citizen and - guess what - Russia did just the same as Britain did, only Britain seems to think it can play by other rules.
I for one can understand the Russian point.

N.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Unless you have some evidence, it is empty accusations which have been thrown around by you, the UK mass media and your government, which I have to believe based on the "good attitude" of UK towards Russia or what?

Polonium is the only evidence that is needed. It's an obscure poison but once our nuclear scientists knew what they were looking for it is easy to trace. They will know from its half-life when it was made and will be able to tell which reactor it came from - baby.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

But Russians grew up all right and know what to expect from the brits from now on. It is "wild capitalism" baby.


Well we've been playing that game rather longer than you have - baby ;-) - so mind your legs.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

The things these brainwashed Kremlin mouthpieces on here say about Berezovskiy are quite amusing - anyone would think he was some kind of evil genius from Bond movie central casting when in fact he's just an opportunist businessman. He's basically just a used car salesman who got lucky.

What this really shows is that Putin has a rather fragile ego that cannot handle any criticism.:roll:

Personally I embrace the new cold war. I wish we'd had the interweb during the old red baiting days. The Russians are ripe for a lot of piss taking and should provide a bit more sport than the usual run of the mill neocon fantasists, zionist land grabbers and Balkan pond scum that infest this site.:)

[Ecchi Oni]

Polonium is the only evidence that is needed. It's an obscure poison but once our nuclear scientists knew what they were looking for it is easy to trace. They will know from its half-life when it was made and will be able to tell which reactor it came from - baby.
And was it proven that it's Russian polonium and not lets say yank one? You do know that polonium can be bought online in the states. Then again it's all about TEH EBIL Russia. There's no proof. Even if there was proof there's such thing as constitution in Russia. Oh and maybe Russia will extradite Lugovoy, right after Blair is given to international tribunal and hanged as a war criminal :D.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I suppose I should have known before I posted this news item that it would turn into the usual "Poor Russian is a victim" flamewar.

FFS guys, if you want to be treated as a civilised country and a member of the world community, you have to behave like one. The Polonium, like all radioactive materials, is easily traced, this investigation wasn't carried out by the Moscow Militia after all.

Thread locked.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Russia warns UK over expulsions

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43004000/jpg/_43004603_litvinenko_ap.jpg
Mr Litvinenko died in a London hospital in November 2006
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/icons/video_text.gifLugovoi interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6900000/newsid_6902100?redirect=6902153.stm&news=1&nbram=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbwm=1)

The Kremlin has warned Britain it faces "serious consequences" after expelling four Russian diplomats from the UK.

The move followed Moscow's refusal to hand over the former KGB agent accused of murdering Alexander Litvinenko in London last year.

Suspect Andrei Lugovoi, who denies involvement, claimed the charges against him had a "political subtext".

But Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Britain will make "no apologies" for expelling the four Russians.

Mr Brown said that because "there is no forthcoming co-operation, then action has to be taken".

The Foreign Office has not named the four Russian diplomats, but the BBC understands they are intelligence officers.

'Absolutely clear'

The BBC's James Rodgers in Moscow said the expulsions would not go unanswered and that the two countries were "facing off" in way not seen since the end of the Cold War.

Moscow has warned that what it describes as "Russophobia" in British politics would damage British-Russian relations, he said.

Mr Litvinenko, another former KGB agent, died of exposure to radioactive polonium-210 in London in November 2006.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif We don't want to be provoked into a ping-pong game http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif
Dmitri Peskov
Spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Analysis: Will the spat widen? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6901636.stm)


The radioactive isotope used to poison him was found in several places that Mr Lugovoi had visited in London.

But Mr Lugovoi told Russian television that the outcome of the inquiry had been predetermined.

He said: "The British authorities have in effect emphasised yet again that the Litvinenko case actually has a political subtext.

"In all the eight months that this row has been developing in earnest, I have not received a single official invitation from the official British authorities, and all those statements that the investigation was carried out competently are lies."

Action 'necessary'

On a visit to Berlin on Monday, Mr Brown said: "When a murder takes place, when a number of innocent civilians were put at risk as a result of that murder, and when an independent prosecuting authority makes it absolutely clear what is in the interests of justice, and there is no forthcoming co-operation, then action has to be taken."

The prime minister added that he wanted a "good relationship" with Russia.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifKEY EVENTS IN CASE
1 November 2006: Alexander Litvinenko meets Andrei Lugovoi and another Russian at a London hotel
23 November 2006: Litvinenko dies in a London hospital
24 November 2006: A Litvinenko statement accuses Russian President Vladimir Putin of involvement in his death. Experts say Litvinenko was poisoned
6 December 2006: UK police say they are treating the death as murder
22 May 2007: Lugovoi should be charged with Litvinenko's murder, British prosecutors say
28 May 2007: UK makes formal request for Lugovoi's extradition from Russia

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Full timeline of events (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6179074.stm)
Send us your reaction (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=6856&edition=2&ttl=20070716165636)


Russia's Foreign Ministry chief spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said: "London's position is immoral.

"Such provocative actions masterminded by the British authorities will not be left without an answer and cannot but entail the most serious consequences for Russian-British relations."

Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitri Peskov said: "We don't want to be provoked into a ping-pong game, although of course the Russian side will provide a necessary response."

Mr Litvinenko's widow Marina said she was "very grateful" for the British government's actions and "proud to be a UK citizen".

Right to refuse

Under the European Convention on Extradition 1957, the Russians have the right to refuse the extradition of a citizen.

The UK has the right to request Mr Lugovoi be tried in Russia, but the UK's director of public prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, has already turned down the offer.

The Conservative MP Sir Malcolm Rifkind was foreign secretary the last time Russian diplomats were expelled.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif Of course it will not produce the result we would ideally like, but it's important that the very, very deeply unsatisfactory nature of this event is well demonstrated http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif
Sir Malcolm Rifkind

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that it had always been unlikely that President Putin, himself a former KGB agent, would have allowed Mr Lugovoi's extradition.

"But you know it's important that the Russians, if they do choose to behave in this way... realise that there is a price and that price is the embarrassment, the inconvenience the difficulties caused by the expulsion of their diplomats," he said. "Of course it will not produce the result we would ideally like, but it's important that the very very deeply unsatisfactory nature of this event is well demonstrated." The UK's director of public prosecutions has recommended Mr Lugovoi be tried for murder by "deliberate poisoning".

BBC News Online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6902046.stm)

[MZKT]

hmmm, it seems like a strange "law". The Russians can't extradite anywhere? Seems like it allows Russians carte blanch to commit "crimes" any where abroad.

Apparently you forgot that Russia is by far not the only country which don't extradict it's citizens. USA for example don't extradict even to the international court.

[Pille1234]

hmmm, it seems like a strange "law". The Russians can't extradite anywhere? Seems like it allows Russians carte blanch to commit "crimes" any where abroad.

Probably just an unintended loophole; the Russians are so new to democracy! The crime can't be an action by the state...why would they do such a thing?

It's a very common law, many if not most countries do have exactly such a rule in place. In Germany that is even a constitutional law, it was recently changed in the way that under specific circumstances in serious cases suspects can be extradited but only to other EU countries.
From that point of view Russia is rather the rule than the exception.

[Nightsky]

Apparently you forgot that Russia is by far not the only country which don't extradict it's citizens. USA for example don't extradict even to the international court.

True, likewise in two current cases, Britain doesn't extradict people to Russia either.

[Sergei]

hmmm, it seems like a strange "law". The Russians can't extradite anywhere? Seems like it allows Russians carte blanch to commit "crimes" any where abroad.

Probably just an unintended loophole; the Russians are so new to democracy! The crime can't be an action by the state...why would they do such a thing?

The obvious fix is to deny visas to Russian citizens. Who knows which of them will commit a crime?


Sure, that's a good fix. That would return all the corrupt oligarchs and their money into Russia. Who could have asked for more?
Can you imagine no more Chelski? :)

[Lov3ll]

True, likewise in two current cases, Britain doesn't extradict people to Russia either.

It's rare that Britain ever extradites anyone, but if they do then they will make sure the person will receive a fair trial and wont be tortured or face the death penalty, and going from the reactions from a lot of the Russians on this site I cant see Berezovsky receiving a fair trial. p-)

[CHERK]

Russian Foreign Affairs Ministry’s spokesman announced (refrasing): “that if Moscow would behave in the manner London did, British Embassy in Moscow would be missing around 80 diplomats. But instead the don’t wont to take any actions that would hurt businesses and regular citizens. An adequate response will follow soon.”
In Russian: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2007/07/17/mid/

Didn’t think that that many spies were working in the British Embassy today. Four diplomats aka spies isn’t that bad compare to 100+ during the Soviet times, but still it’s a slap.


U.K. govt. misleading public on Litvinenko case - Lugovoi

MOSCOW, July 17 (RIA Novosti) - The U.K.'s latest moves against Russia are designed to draw the public's attention away from the investigation of the "Litvinenko case," agent-turned-businessman Andrei Lugovoi said Tuesday.

Russia condemned as "Russophobic" the planned expulsion of four diplomats from Britain over Moscow's refusal to extradite a key suspect in the murder of former security officer Alexander Litvinenko in London. Russia called the decision "immoral," warning of an inevitable political backlash after U.K. Foreign Secretary David Miliband announced the move.
"This is being done to divert public opinion from the real investigation that is being conducted by the Russian Prosecutor General's Office and the Federal Security Service (FSB)," Lugovoi said in an interview with Russia Today television.

He said British officials are misleading the public.
"I am convinced that British intelligence is directly involved in stoking this scandal, influencing U.K. officials. I don't know exactly how. Probably through considerations of political expediency," Lugovoi said.
He also said he doubts the independence of the British justice system, and that he also distrusts British investigators.

Moscow is studying London's official position on the expulsion of Russian diplomats over an ongoing extradition dispute to decide on an appropriate response, a Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman said.
"Thirty minutes prior to the foreign secretary's speech in the House of Commons, the ambassador of the Russian Federation in London was summoned to the Foreign Office, where, with reference to the country's government's decision, he was officially given a note on our diplomats' expulsion," Mikhail Kamynin said.

Shares of Russian companies traded on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) fell between 0.3% and 4% on news of the U.K. measures against Russia.
Miliband said Monday negotiations between Russia and the European Union over facilitating the visa regime would be suspended and visa restrictions introduced for Russian officials. A spokesman for the British Embassy in Moscow clarified that the restrictions would not concern tourists or other ordinary citizens.

Lugovoi, who met Litvinenko on the day he fell ill in London, told journalists that London's decision to expel Russian diplomats was a clear attempt to politicize the case.

Litvinenko died in a London hospital in November 2006. British experts said they discovered the radioactive isotope Polonium-210 in his body, but have not yet published an official autopsy report.
In a deathbed note, purportedly written by Litvinenko, who received British citizenship shortly before his death, he blamed President Vladimir Putin for his murder, an allegation the Kremlin dismissed.

Early last week, British prosecutors said they had received Russia's official refusal to extradite Lugovoi, which cited the Russian Constitution as saying Russian citizens could not be handed over to other countries, and proposed trying Lugovoi in Russia if Britain provides sufficient evidence.
However, a spokesman for British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said the country's authorities could not be sure a Russian trial would be unbiased.

[B]In his address to parliament, Miliband also urged Russia to consider changing its Constitution to make international legal cooperation more efficient, including in the extradition of criminal suspects.
:roll:

Russia in turn wants Britain to extradite two of its own suspects, fugitive tycoon Boris Berezovsky and Chechen emissary Akhmed Zakayev.
Berezovsky is accused of fraud and plotting a coup, while Zakayev is facing terrorism charges. Both have been granted British passports.
Russian diplomatic spokesman Kamynin said: "We have the impression that British authorities are trying to justify their refusal to cooperate with Russian law enforcement officials on the extradition of Zakayev and Berezovsky, against whom we have undeniable evidence of terrorism."

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070717/69122732.html

[Sharp]

wow, i think we are pretty too much hearing speak of the russians theses weeks, the recent gas problem with the poles, the fact they wanna leave the european traity, their attitude toward kosovo and now this ...

[Zerodivider]

Russia in turn wants Britain to extradite two of its own suspects, fugitive tycoon Boris Berezovsky and Chechen emissary Akhmed Zakayev.
Berezovsky is accused of fraud and plotting a coup, while Zakayev is facing terrorism charges. Both have been granted British passports.

They were granted political asylum, not passports. As for Zakayev, both Danish and British judges ruled that there is insufficent factual evidence to warrant an extradition.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

"We have the impression that British authorities are trying to justify their refusal to cooperate with Russian law enforcement officials on the extradition of Zakayev and Berezovsky, against whom we have undeniable evidence of terrorism."

Evidence against critics of the regime concocted by Russia's 'justice' system (i use the word justice in its most ironic sense) can hardly be taken seriously here in the West.

The bottom line is that the Russian government murdered a British citizen (Litvinenko) in London and exposed literally hundreds of other people to significantly increased risk of cancer over the next few years (including one of my oldest friends who was drinking in the hotel bar at the time in question).

[CHERK]

Evidence against critics of the regime concocted by Russia's 'justice' system (i use the word justice in its most ironic sense) can hardly be taken seriously here in the West.

The bottom line is that the Russian government murdered a British citizen (Litvinenko) in London and exposed literally hundreds of other people to significantly increased risk of cancer over the next few years (including one of my oldest friends who was drinking in the hotel bar at the time in question).

Berezovsky became critic of the regime when he started to feel the heat from authorities.
It’s a political game where the players will do anything to gain more influence, not to mention harboring criminals. Yes, I do not believe in a fairness of political trials be it West or East.

[asch]

Evidence against critics of the regime concocted by Russia's 'justice' system (i use the word justice in its most ironic sense) can hardly be taken seriously here in the West.
of course you can understand that it works both ways.

The bottom line is that the Russian government murdered a British citizen (Litvinenko) in London and exposed literally hundreds of other people to significantly increased risk of cancer over the next few years (including one of my oldest friends who was drinking in the hotel bar at the time in question).

i see that you already prove for yourself that our government do it. if it's an example of how British justice work, one can understand why other countries ain't eager to extradite their citizens.
p-)

[Digimon]

hmmm, it seems like a strange "law". The Russians can't extradite anywhere? Seems like it allows Russians carte blanch to commit "crimes" any where abroad.

Probably just an unintended loophole; the Russians are so new to democracy! The crime can't be an action by the state...why would they do such a thing?

The obvious fix is to deny visas to Russian citizens. Who knows which of them will commit a crime?

Current constitution was written by liberals in the early 90s, accepted in 1993. The fundamental position for this law is that Russian citizens must be tried by Russian courts. Since Russian Constitution also separates judicial and executive branches, and provides legal and financial foundation for the independence of the judiciary, there was no reason to suspect that the course of justice could be subverted for political motives.

As far as extradition is concerned, the law was meant to provide a guarantee that Russian citizens would not be tried in other states on politically motivated charges. US refuses to recognize international criminal court for similar reason. Just like the British authorities have little faith in Russian judiciary, so does Russia have little faith in the judiciary of many other states. As far as human rights are concerned, it is a good law, one that protects Russian citizens from unreasonable prosecution, which is one of the main purposes of a Constitution.

The law was, in fact, violated not a long time ago, when an individual with dual citizenship (if I recall correctly) was extradited to Uzbekestan on terrorism charges. This is an example what this law was meant to prevent.

As far as carte blanche is concerned, this is of course not so. The situation is not different from many other states. The individual could be tried in Russia for crimes committed in other countries.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Berezovsky became critic of the regime when he started to feel the heat from authorities.
It’s a political game where the players will do anything to gain more influence, not to mention harboring criminals. Yes, I do not believe in a fairness of political trials be it West or East.

I never said Berezovsky was an 'angel' no one who makes a lot of money in business is. But the way he is being 'hyped up' in Russia is rather ridiculous.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

of course you can understand that it works both ways.



i see that you already prove for yourself that our government do it. if it's an example of how British justice work, one can understand why other countries ain't eager to extradite their citizens.
p-)

The evidence is incontrovertible. The half-life of polonium means that it can be easily traced back to it's origin in Russia - remember the aircraft it was found on? British radiation scientists will be able to tell which reactor it came from and how 'old' the polonium was when it boarded the airliner in Russia.:roll:

You and I both know that access to polonium will only come from the very top. So cut the crap.

[wilhelm]

If Britain does not allow extradition to Russia, I can hardly see why Russia would see the need to, the alleged guilt of the various parties in this situation notwithstanding.

SomeGeek, as was stated above, many countries have laws forbidding extradition, particularly to those that have the death penalty. This includes extradition to the US if the defendent were to face death.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

If Britain does not allow extradition to Russia, I can hardly see why Russia would see the need to, the alleged guilt of the various parties in this situation notwithstanding.

SomeGeek, as was stated above, many countries have laws forbidding extradition, particularly to those that have the death penalty. This includes extradition to the US if the defendent were to face death.

Britain does allow extradition - to countries with properly functioning independent judicial systems. Obviously it does not apply to banana republics.:roll:

[theholeinthedonut]

Interesting development:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2094719.ece

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Interesting development:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2094719.ece


I guess we can expect a wave of arrests of a 'nest' of fake British spies in Moscow in the near future then :roll:

Followed by the inevitable free and fair 'Stalinist' show trials in which the selected patsies confess to ever more extravagant crimes in a feeble attempt to save themselves from a long trip to a very cold place.

[koozya]

Evidence against critics of the regime concocted by Russia's 'justice' system (i use the word justice in its most ironic sense) can hardly be taken seriously here in the West.

The bottom line is that the Russian government murdered a British citizen (Litvinenko) in London and exposed literally hundreds of other people to significantly increased risk of cancer over the next few years (including one of my oldest friends who was drinking in the hotel bar at the time in question).
lol so it was proven that it was Russain gov? wow i didnt heard bout this..... :slap:

[theholeinthedonut]

The most worrying thing about all the late developments is the question as to how far Putin is still thinking along rational lines. He has shot himself into so many feets one thinks he's a friggin caterpillar. Russia has lost an enormous amount of credibility all over europe, the big strategic chance it had to tighten bonds with the european countries opposing the Iraq war when those had strong disagreements with the USA, was missed.
All the european countries are hesitating to rely even stronger on russian Gas as an energy source, the discussion about not shutting down all the nuclear reactors, in Germany is closely related to the desire of the current german governement to free themself from the dependency on russian gas.
I'm afraid Putin is still too much a chekista, used to getting it's ways by bullying, not realizing that todays Russia is not the fear inspiring beast that the KGB used to be.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

lol so it was proven that it was Russain gov? wow i didnt heard bout this..... :slap:

I take it you don't get out much?:roll:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

The most worrying thing about all the late developments is the question as to how far Putin is still thinking along rational lines. He has shot himself into so many feets one thinks he's a friggin caterpillar. Russia has lost an enormous amount of credibility all over europe, the big strategic chance it had to tighten bonds with the european countries opposing the Iraq war when those had strong disagreements with the USA, was missed.
All the european countries are hesitating to rely even stronger on russian Gas as an energy source, the discussion about not shutting down all the nuclear reactors, in Germany is closely related to the desire of the current german governement to free themself from the dependency on russian gas.
I'm afraid Putin is still too much a chekista, used to getting it's ways by bullying, not realizing that todays Russia is not the fear inspiring beast that the KGB used to be.

In the long term, European countries are going to start seeking ever more diverse sources of energy supply in order to make the Russians increasingly irrelevant.

For example, it didn't make a big splash in the news but Britain recently completed a new gas pipeline to bring gas from Norway which will supply about 20% of our gas needs. I think the current situation will focus minds on renewing and increasing the supply of energy from nuclear power, generation from incineration of waste and renewable energy sources all of which will be very good for us from a strategic point of view in the long term.

Vlad needs to start thinking in the long term about how, if he alienates Western countries too much, who will back Russia up in the future when China starts looking for lebensraum in Asia.

Russia (thinly populated/declining population/relatively resource rich) vs China (huge population, increasingly wealthy/huge energy needs). I know who I would put my money on in the long term.

[MZKT]

Britain does allow extradition - to countries with properly functioning independent judicial systems. Obviously it does not apply to banana republics.:roll:

From russian point of view a country where media already decided Litwinenko was poisoned by Putin himself, won't offer a fair trial either. Anyway as long it harbours terrorism suspects and thieves there's absolutely no reason to Russia to play by better rules then Britain do.

[theholeinthedonut]

From russian point of view a country where media already decided Litwinenko was poisoned by Putin himself, won't offer a fair trial either. Anyway as long it harbours terrorism suspects and thieves there's absolutely no reason to Russia to play by better rules then Britain do.

In some countries , as opposed to Russia, the media are free to report what they want, always in the frame of the existing laws of course, and not to vent the gibberish of the local "conductator" en vogue. I doubt the British justices will be much influenced by what the Times or Sun are writing. This concept may be difficult to grab for Russians as well as for some local stalinist dinosaurs an tinfoil hat conspirationalists, but it served us quite well for the last few years and I guess we're gonna stick to it for a while

[a_very_ex_STAB]

From russian point of view a country where media already decided Litwinenko was poisoned by Putin himself, won't offer a fair trial either. Anyway as long it harbours terrorism suspects and thieves there's absolutely no reason to Russia to play by better rules then Britain do.


There are many thieves and murderers in Russia but nobody seems to want to prosecute them. I wonder why.

You obviously have no conception of how an 'independent' judiciary works in a country like the UK but then I guess you have had no choice but to get used to the idea of the State telling the judiciary what to do. The media didn't decide Litvinenko was murdered by the Russian state - the British government know it because that's where all the evidence points. They would not go as far as expelling four diplomats if they were anything less than 100% sure of their facts - they are not taking this lightly it is a very serious business. There is a lot at stake here as the UK is the biggest foreign investor in Russia at the moment.

[Mamont]

In some countries , as opposed to Russia, the media are free to report what they want, always in the frame of the existing laws of course,
So, current laws advocate baseless claims aka lies and sucked out of thumb theories, that are being presented as facts. Interesting.

I doubt the British justices will be much influenced by what the Times or Sun are writing. Times? No. Current political needs - of course. Read Workman's speech in Maruev and Chernyshova case. And of course, Berezovskij and Zakaev - two very good examples of British justice.

This concept may be difficult to grab for Russians... Hm, how many times Britain refused to extradict people in past years?

[theholeinthedonut]

I have to reconsider my previous post, if this is not a lame duck http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,495061,00.html
then Putin is loosing his marbles.

Sorry only found the german source, here's the gist of it: Yesterday two TU95 from Kola nearly entered the Uk's airspace over scottland, Uk airdefence scrambled two AD Tornados and two Norwegian F-16's had been tracking the two bombers , only in the last moment the Tupolevs changed their course.

[Sergei]

Britain does allow extradition - to countries with properly functioning independent judicial systems. Obviously it does not apply to banana republics.:roll:

That's right dude, therefore Russia ain't extradicting anybody to face "justice" in banana republics.

[theholeinthedonut]

So, current laws advocate baseless claims aka lies and sucked out of thumb theories, that are being presented as facts. Interesting.

Times? No. Current political needs - of course. Read Workman's speech in Maruev and Chernyshova case. And of course, Berezovskij and Zakaev - two very good examples of British justice.

Hm, how many times Britain refused to extradict people in past years?

Do you really think anyone will reply to this?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

That's right dude, therefore Russia ain't extradicting anybody to face "justice" in banana republics.

Really I thought it was because of your constitution. Maybe you need to make your minds up. I hope your gov is better at getting its story straight than you are :)

I'll give you a clue UK stands for United Kingdom which means we're NOT a republic :roll: Show's exactly how seriously we can take your opinions - eh baby.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Hm, how many times Britain refused to extradict people in past years?

Quite a lot of times actually - especially in relation to alleged terrorism offences when there were either grave doubts about the reliability of the evidence of the evidence against the suspect and/or suspicion that a confession would be forced out of them or lack of faith in the judicial system of the suspect's home country.

[Sergei]

Really I thought it was because of your constitution. Maybe you need to make your minds up :)

I'll give you a clue UK stands for United Kingdom which means we're NOT a republic :roll: Show's exactly how seriously we can take your opinions - eh baby.

So does Russia. After organised homicide of Iraqis by british troops and the international politics of the "poodle" Blair, do you think that Russia will ever take UK seriously? Haha, think again.

Britain has no moral high ground to stand on, as it violates the same principals it is accusing others of. Btw, what happened to Dr. Kelly? Has it been found out who killed him? No?

I thought so. People sitting in the glass house shouldn't be throwing stones.

[Mamont]

Quite a lot of times actually - especially in relation to alleged terrorism offences when there were either grave doubts about the reliability of the evidence of the evidence against the suspect and/or suspicion that a confession would be forced out of them or lack of faith in the judicial system of the suspect's home country.

Thank you. Case closed.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

So does Russia. After organised homicide of Iraqis by british troops and the international politics of the "poodle" Blair, do you think that Russia will ever take UK seriously? Haha, think again.

Britain has no moral high ground to stand on, as it violates the same principals it is accusing others of. Btw, what happened to Dr. Kelly? Has it been found out who killed him? No?

I thought so. People sitting in the glass house shouldn't be throwing stones.

A russian lecturing foreign countries about their armies committing organized homicide LOL roflroflroflrofl

Only the tinfoil hat brigade think Dr Kelly was murdered. I guess you also think the Jews did 911 :)

We stopped taking Russia seriously when Boris was too pissed to even get out of his aircraft and Vlad the kiddy fiddler's constant displays of petulance haven't done you any favours either.

[theholeinthedonut]

A russian lecturing foreign countries about their armies committing organized homicide LOL roflroflroflrofl

Only the tinfoil hat brigade think Dr Kelly was murdered. I guess you also think the Jews did 911 :)

We stopped taking Russia seriously when Boris was too pissed to even get out of his aircraft and Vlad the kiddy fiddler's constant displays of petulance haven't done you any favours either.

http://images.google.lu/images?hl=de&q=grozny+&btnG=Bilder-Suche&gbv=2

[Sergei]

A russian lecturing foreign countries about their armies committing organized homicide LOL roflroflroflrofl

Only the tinfoil hat brigade think Dr Kelly was murdered. I guess you also think the Jews did 911 :)

We stopped taking Russia seriously when Boris was too pissed to even get out of his aircraft and Vlad the kiddy fiddler's constant displays of petulance haven't done you any favours either.

Yeah, yeah, I guess we agree on many things. No wonder Russia doesn't change and won't change its constitution because the other guys wants to.

[Susumu]

The most worrying thing about all the late developments is the question as to how far Putin is still thinking along rational lines. He has shot himself into so many feets one thinks he's a friggin caterpillar.
not a hard thing to do when Berezovski and other rich people finance the "opposition" to harm the current Russian government "peaceful or by force" - or do you think they'd pay money for someting that doesn't show results?

[theholeinthedonut]

not a hard thing to do when Berezovski and other rich people finance the "opposition" to harm the current Russian government "peaceful or by force" - or do you think they'd pay money for someting that doesn't show results?

Aah poor Putin was forced to all this! Now I feel better. Who did Berezovski pay to make him do it? Harry Potter? White Rabbits? Rasputin

[Mamont]

Yeah, yeah, I guess we agree on many things. No wonder Russia doesn't change and won't change its constitution because the other guys wants to.
As already being said, if Britain wants to change russian constitution, than it has to put away it's sovereignity and join Russia as part of the federation, then sent a petition to Duma to change constitution. :)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

It would appear that, like many constitutions, the Russian constitution has some gray areas that are open to interpretation despite all the black and white statements about extradition not being allowed in any case.

Article 61
1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from Russia or extradited to another State.
2. The Russian Federation shall guarantee to its citizens protection and patronage abroad.

Article 63
1. The Russian Federation shall grant political asylum to foreign nationals and stateless persons according to the universally recognized norms of international law.
2. In the Russian Federation it shall not be allowed to extradite to other States those people who are persecuted for political convictions, as well as for actions (or inaction) not recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation. THE EXTRADITION OF PEOPLE ACCUSED OF A CRIME, AND ALSO THE HANDOVER OF CONVICTS FOR SERVING SENTENCES IN OTHER STATES SHALL BE CARRIED OUT ON THE BASIS OF THE FEDERAL LAW OR THE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

The Russian constution therefore clearly DOES envisage times when it is possible to extradite Russian citizens to another country.

[Susumu]

Aah poor Putin was forced to all this! Now I feel better. Who did Berezovski pay to make him do it? Harry Potter? White Rabbits? Rasputin

more likely media and politicians to blame russia and sabotage international relationships. Maybe even assassins to do some high profile killings so the media and politicians have more ammuntion to blame russia :)


The Russian constution therefore clearly DOES envisage times when it is possible to extradite Russian citizens to another country.
maybe you missed the part that says that article 63 is about foreign nationals and stateless persons who seek asylum in russia

[Mamont]

It would appear that, like many constitutions, the Russian constitution has some gray areas that are open to interpretation despite all the black and white statements about extradition not being allowed in any case.
I suggest you study Garabayev vs. Russia case.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

maybe you missed the part that says that article 63 is about foreign nationals and stateless persons who seek asylum in russia

All you need to do is revoke Luguvoi's citizenship then for bringing Russia into disrepute. :)

[Susumu]

All you need to do is revoke Luguvoi's citizenship then for bringing Russia into disrepute. :)

ah yes at least then Russia wouldn't have to change its constitution just to please you guys, huh? :)
Maybe if the guy is trialed in Russia and found guilty and if there weren't 21 people that Russia wanted extradited by UK of whom they haven't got a single one somebody would give that idea a thought. ;)
The guy stays in Russia, live with it - the only option is if UK wants russia to trial him or not.

[theholeinthedonut]

[QUOTE=Susumu;2639613]more likely media and politicians to blame russia and sabotage international relationships. Maybe even assassins to do some high profile killings so the media and politicians have more ammuntion to blame russia :)



Yes it must have been Murdoch,just in order to sell more copies of his capitalistrag.....just like he had Kennedy killed and was behind the hit on pope JP II........I hate to break it to you Susumu,but all you are achieving right now is making an incredible a**e out of yourself.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

ah yes at least then Russia wouldn't have to change its constitution just to please you guys, huh? :)
Maybe if the guy is trialed in Russia and found guilty and if there weren't 21 people that Russia wanted extradited by UK of whom they haven't got a single one somebody would give that idea a thought. ;)
The guy stays in Russia, live with it - the only option is if UK wants russia to trial him or not.

Well Lugovoi is probably also going to die from multiple cancers in a few years so it's probably all a bit academic really as he'll get what he deserves. I wonder if his masters in Kremlin told him about the dangers of polonium-210 - I guess not rofl

Maybe he should change his name to patsy?

[Susumu]

I hate to break it to you Susumu,but all you are achieving right now is making an incredible a**e out of yourself.

you love it and you know it. ;)
Why don't you tell the guys who blame Putin/Russian government for everything the same? My theory isn't any more absurd then teirs and just as much unproven. :)

Well Lugovoi is probably also going to die from multiple cancers in a few years so it's probably all a bit academic really as he'll get what he deserves.
well everythings cool then - no need to extradite him. sit back and enjoy it.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

you love it and you know it. ;)
Why don't you tell the guys who blame Putin/Russian government for everything the same? My theory isn't any more absurd then teirs and just as much unproven. :)


well everythings cool then - no need to extradite him. sit back and enjoy it.

Well I would enjoy it more if one of my oldest friends wasn't now facing the same increased cancer risks because of Putin's/Luguvoi's actions.

[Susumu]

Well I would enjoy it more if one of my oldest friends wasn't now facing the same increased cancer risks because of Putin's/Luguvoi's actions.

oh you really should stop the defamation unless you can prove anything.
I understand wanting an extradition for a trial - but for you seem to want a witchhunt :)
About increased cancer risk - afaik it was said that the amount of exposure to radiation from this radioactive material was so small that people who came in contact are not in danger.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

oh you really should stop the defamation unless you can prove anything.
I understand wanting an extradition for a trial - but for you seem to want a witchhunt :)

Yeah I'm vindictive like that - problem?


About increased cancer risk - afaik it was said that the amount of exposure to radiation from this radioactive material was so small that people who came in contact are not in danger.

Well I'm no oncologist but there's a range of exposure and afaik individual susceptibilities to such things cannot be accurately predicted.

[Susumu]

Yeah I'm vindictive like that - problem?

yes - it can be problematic if people declare people guilty before their guilt was proven (especially if the only information to base these accusations on come from biased sensationalist media) - not only because the guy might be innocent but also because if he is the ones who really did it might go unpunished.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

yes - it can be problematic if people declare people guilty before their guilt was proven (especially if the only information to base these accusations on come from biased sensationalist media) - not only because the guy might be innocent but also because if he is the ones who really did it might go unpunished.

Well it seems to me that that is exactly what has already happened in Russia in relation to people such as Berezovsky and Zakayev etc. So may be you people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[Susumu]

yes its a similar situation with the difference that Russia has offered a trial in Russia while terrorist and crime suspects live a happy life in the UK and are even still politically and otherwise active against russia.

[koozya]

Well Lugovoi is probably also going to die from multiple cancers in a few years so it's probably all a bit academic really as he'll get what he deserves. I wonder if his masters in Kremlin told him about the dangers of polonium-210 - I guess not rofl

Maybe he should change his name to patsy?
once again prove first that it was done by Russia, if not just buzz off.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

once again prove first that it was done by Russia, if not just buzz off.

It's all ready been proved roflroflroflroflroflrofl

It's not our problem if you're a bit slow on the uptake.

Did somebody die and leave you in charge?

[Lov3ll]

yes its a similar situation with the difference that Russia has offered a trial in Russia while terrorist and crime suspects live a happy life in the UK and are even still politically and otherwise active against russia.

Berezovsky said he would be trialed in a neutral country if Lugovoi would. :|

[Lokos]

It's all ready been proved

By... whom?

Lokos

[a_very_ex_STAB]

By... whom?

Lokos

I see we have another muzhik who's in denial in the face of the overwhelming radiological evidence :roll:

[Susumu]

Berezovsky said he would be trialed in a neutral country if Lugovoi would. :|

Berezovski isn't the only guy wanted by Russia and it shouldn't be up to him to decide if he's trialed or not in the first place. :|
But I guess when you have a ****load of money and influence, insider information or any other use for a country you can do what you want and get away with it even in european countries which think of themselves to be less corrupt then most other countries.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I see we have another muzhik who's in denial in the face of the overwhelming radiological evidence :roll:

The Kremlin apologists on here would make an interesting psychological case study.

It would appear that after centuries of despotic Czarist rule, decades of communist tyranny and now the onset of neo Stalinism that the Russian population have developed a kind of collective Stockholm syndrome :) , quite clearly manifested by an obsessive need to be seen to be lining up with their masters at all times.
Good doggy.

[Susumu]

you fail to see that you behave in the same way - in your eyes your country is never wrong and you see things often only from one perspective etc.
Whenever people like you always only criticize Russia of course the Russians here will support each other because of a common enemy. :)
Like you decide to support your country's point of view the others do the same with their countries etc.
Its natural behaviour and is not exclusive to Russia although the strength of the cooperation differs from culture to culture - you should see it in real life - one of the best examples are turks in germany - if you have a problem with one of them you'll have a problem with the whole family and friends ;)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

you fail to see that you behave in the same way - in your eyes your country is never wrong and you see things often only from one perspective etc.

Yeah right. You obviously never saw me posting about Iraq or Tony Bliar then :roll:

[Kilgor]

Yeah right. You obviously never saw me posting about Iraq or Tony Bliar then :roll:

He's got you there ;)

[Susumu]

Yeah right. You obviously never saw me posting about Iraq or Tony Bliar then :roll:

you'll see russians criticizing some of Russia's actions too - we have some guys here who don't like Putin and his political party too - but I'd like to see you when, lets say a russian, criticizes your country instead of fellow Brits - I expect a same reaction that you witness from the russians on this board when somebody says something against russia (take position for their country unless its proven to be 110% wrong) ;)
In this thread for example you'll definitely see few brits who give a damn about the fact that UK hasn't extradited 21 requested people to Russia (or are even happy about it) but expect Russia to change its constitution or anything similar just to please your country - thats definitelly not fair but its the typical patriotic (in some cases nationalistic) "my country is more important" mentality that lots of people have and that (judging by my own experience) is very hard to overcome.
Discussions like these are especially difficult with people like you because you hate Russia in general - no matter what it does or doesn't (I've yet to see one positive comment on russia from you but I've seen lots of negative already) and throwing in a couple of insults doesn't help much either.

Apart from that you should read the posts of some of our russian members here who really make every effort to write a funded and detailed point of view instead of posting just claims and accusations - they're often very informative and definitelly stand out from what you call "kremlin apologist" posts :)

[koozya]

The Kremlin apologists on here would make an interesting psychological case study.

It would appear that after centuries of despotic Czarist rule, decades of communist tyranny and now the onset of neo Stalinism that the Russian population have developed a kind of collective Stockholm syndrome :) , quite clearly manifested by an obsessive need to be seen to be lining up with their masters at all times.
Good doggy.
do u actually believe in the **** u post???? if u do, i feel sry for you.:|

[Digimon]

By... whom?
Lokos
Lokos, I think in this case it is time to take your own advise that you have given me at one time. The level of discussion here is beyond reason...

[DeltaWhisky58]

Russia expels four UK diplomats

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42498000/jpg/_42498761_lug_ap203.jpg
Andrei Lugovoi has denied involvement in the murder

Russia is to expel four UK diplomats in the continuing row over Moscow's refusal to extradite the man suspected of Alexander Litvinenko's murder.

The four diplomats must leave Russia within 10 days, and Moscow is to review visa applications for UK officials.

Foreign ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said co-operation in counter terrorism would no longer be possible.

On Monday four Russian embassy staff were expelled from the UK as part of the row over the murder in London.

'Continuing disappointment'

The UK also suspended the visa facilitation process for Russian officials.
Announcing the tit-for-tat response, Mr Kamynin said Moscow would not apply for any UK visas for Russian officials.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifKEY EVENTS IN CASE
1 November 2006: Alexander Litvinenko meets Andrei Lugovoi and another Russian at a London hotel
23 November 2006: Litvinenko dies in a London hospital
24 November 2006: A Litvinenko statement accuses Russian President Vladimir Putin of involvement in his death. Experts say Litvinenko was poisoned
6 December 2006: UK police say they are treating the death as murder
22 May 2007: Lugovoi should be charged with Litvinenko's murder, British prosecutors say
28 May 2007: UK makes formal request for Lugovoi's extradition from Russia

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Full timeline of events (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6179074.stm)

He said: "The position of the Brown government is not based on British common sense and reasoning."

At the Moscow press conference he added: "The measures declared by London recently makes co-operation between Russia and the UK impossible... in the war on terror."

Earlier Tony Brenton, Britain's ambassador in Moscow, was summoned to Russia's foreign ministry and given "certain messages" to pass on to the Foreign Office in London.

After that meeting he said he had outlined "our continuing disappointment at Russia's reaction so far to our request for the extradition of Mr Lugovoi and our continuing hope that Russia will find a way to co-operate".

Alexander Litvinenko, an ex-KGB agent who had taken UK citizenship, died of exposure to radioactive polonium-210 in London in November 2006.

Denies involvement

Traces of the radioactive isotope was found in several places visited by another former agent, Andrei Lugovoi.

Mr Lugovoi denies involvement and says he is a witness, not a suspect in the case and has told Russian television that the outcome of the inquiry had been predetermined.

Under the European Convention on Extradition 1957, Russia has the right to refuse the extradition of a citizen. The UK has the right to request Mr Lugovoi be tried in Russia, but the UK's director of public prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, has already turned down the offer.

The UK's director of public prosecutions has recommended Mr Lugovoi be tried for murder by "deliberate poisoning".

BBC News Online (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6906481.stm)

[DW58] Well, what a surprise, how original!

[CHERK]

MOSCOW, July 19 (RIA Novosti) - "Four British diplomats are to be expelled from Russia in a move mirroring the U.K.'s expulsion of Russian diplomats over Moscow's refusal to extradite a murder suspect, the Foreign Ministry said Thursday.

Earlier in the week, London ordered the Russian diplomats to leave the country, after Moscow gave its official refusal to extradite Andrei Lugovoi, who Scotland Yard suspects of murdering former Russian security officer Alexander Litvinenko in London last November.
"The British ambassador has received a note declaring four employees of the British Embassy personae non-grata, and saying they must leave Moscow within ten days," Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said.
The spokesman expressed regret that Moscow had been driven to such a measure, and stressed that Russia is not seeking to aggravate relations with the U.K., a major investor in Russia's economy.
"We are convinced that common sense will ultimately prevail," the spokesman said.
He also said that Russian officials will stop visiting the U.K., as London has now ceased to issue visas to Russian officials over the extradition dispute.
"In connection with the Litvinenko case, it has been announced that we will act reciprocally on all visa issues," Kamynin added.
Russia is also halting joint counter-terrorism efforts with Britain, he said.
"The measures announced by London on July 16 regrettably make Russian-British cooperation against terrorism impossible," Kamynin said.
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice backed London's position in an interview Thursday with SkyNews in Lisbon, ahead of a Mideast Quartet meeting, and urged Moscow to fully cooperate with U.K. authorities, in particular with their demand for Lugovoi's extradition to Britain.
Moscow has refused to extradite the suspect, citing its Constitution, which forbids the extradition of Russian nationals. Moscow has proposed trying Lugovoi in Russia if Britain provides sufficient evidence."
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070719/69279751.html

And it continues ...

Side note: you'll look smarter if you think befor you write.

[Me-262]

It would appear that, like many constitutions, the Russian constitution has some gray areas that are open to interpretation despite all the black and white statements about extradition not being allowed in any case.

Article 61
1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from Russia or extradited to another State.
2. The Russian Federation shall guarantee to its citizens protection and patronage abroad.

Article 63
1. The Russian Federation shall grant political asylum to foreign nationals and stateless persons according to the universally recognized norms of international law.
2. In the Russian Federation it shall not be allowed to extradite to other States those people who are persecuted for political convictions, as well as for actions (or inaction) not recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation. THE EXTRADITION OF PEOPLE ACCUSED OF A CRIME, AND ALSO THE HANDOVER OF CONVICTS FOR SERVING SENTENCES IN OTHER STATES SHALL BE CARRIED OUT ON THE BASIS OF THE FEDERAL LAW OR THE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

The Russian constution therefore clearly DOES envisage times when it is possible to extradite Russian citizens to another country.

Now, show me a treaty ratified by Russia which requires extraditing Lugovoi to Britain.

[Lov3ll]

I don't get it why expel diplomats? whats the point, people seem to be getting worked up over it and I really don't get it, why expel them and whats to gain from doing so, whats 4 diplomats? :|

Not a rhetorical question p-)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

do u actually believe in the **** u post???? if u do, i feel sry for you.:|

You don't need to worry about me but you obviously have grown to like taking it up the arrrrse from your masters in the Kremlin.

I feel sorry for you. roflroflrofl

[Lokos]

I see we have another muzhik who's in denial in the face of the overwhelming radiological evidence

Before I gladly take Digimon's advice, I'll leave you with one question: what overwhelming radiological evidence?

You've previously mentioned that with (IIRC) the samples taken of the polonium, a clear line to the originating point of the radioactive material could be traced. That's methodology, and most certainly not a proof of any sort. When was the polonium traced to a Russian facility?

Secondly, if such a trace had been evidenced, what links the act to the Russian government itself?

In the Western, non-Banana Republic, Common Law (with which I presume you are familiar with) system of criminal proceedings, one has to prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. How has this been done?

I put to you that you have no proof, that there is no basis for your accusations and that I can see the spittle leaping forth from your mouth as you cast your aspersions and vent your hate.

And that's it from me, in this very worthwhile thread...

Lokos

[grimupnorth]

This can all be sorted by some common sense and a nice cup of tea.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x260/grimupnorth2012/SN15b_A_radioactive_tea1.jpg

[Kroforit]

I don't get it why expel diplomats? whats the point, people seem to be getting worked up over it and I really don't get it, why expel them and whats to gain from doing so, whats 4 diplomats? :|

Not a rhetorical question p-)


probably the 4 who were of highest suspect of spying. ussualy suspected diplomats dont get kicked out untill substantial evidence is presented.

[OMON]

i wonder whats next.......:roll:

[Snoshi]

i wonder whats next.......:roll:

Some angry letters.. This wont escalate unless Russia or UK wants escalation.

[MZKT]

They should have expelled 3. Then the britons would be surprised and don't know what to with the one spare diplomat in Moscow.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Before I gladly take Digimon's advice, I'll leave you with one question: what overwhelming radiological evidence?

You've previously mentioned that with (IIRC) the samples taken of the polonium, a clear line to the originating point of the radioactive material could be traced. That's methodology, and most certainly not a proof of any sort. When was the polonium traced to a Russian facility?

Secondly, if such a trace had been evidenced, what links the act to the Russian government itself?

In the Western, non-Banana Republic, Common Law (with which I presume you are familiar with) system of criminal proceedings, one has to prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. How has this been done?

I put to you that you have no proof, that there is no basis for your accusations and that I can see the spittle leaping forth from your mouth as you cast your aspersions and vent your hate.

And that's it from me, in this very worthwhile thread...

Lokos

Half lives tell you the time it was made.
Radiological impurities in radioisotopes provide signatures for specific reactors.
The trail leads to Moscow.
Russia is a top down system nobody is going to get hold of polonium without 'orders from above'.
In the British system the exact evidence will not be made public - you know that as well as I do because it would prejudice an eventual prosecution but one thing is for sure the British government would not risk upsetting relations with Russia if they were not 100% sure. They have not rushed into this it's 8 months or so since Litvinenko died.

I'm sure you're not so naive as to think that intelligence services don't operate without 'cut-outs' in line with the concept of 'plausible deniability.'

I think that wraps it up.
:)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

you'll see russians criticizing some of Russia's actions too - we have some guys here who don't like Putin and his political party too -

Well I've been here a while and I've only EVER seen the Russia strong Spetnaz!!!1111 wannabees (who strangely often apparently choose to live elswhere) posting on Russia. So are all these supposed dissidents hiding in a closet somewhere?

I wonder if the spetsnaz wannabees would be taking such a relaxed view of all this sort of stuff if MI6 had offed a Russian citizen in Moscow?

[little icebear]

So are all these supposed dissidents hiding in a closet somewhere?


Maybe a military-related forum is the wrong place to look for them.

E.G : I don´t consider myself to be a "leftist", but when I´m around here, I pretty much feel like one.

[Susumu]

Russia is a top down system nobody is going to get hold of polonium without 'orders from above'.

either orders from above or 2 bottles of vodka and a box of chocolates. ;)

[MOSTEAKA]

They should have expelled 3. Then the britons would be surprised and don't know what to with the one spare diplomat in Moscow.

I have to agree, that would have been a very funny move.

[Royal]

probably the 4 who were of highest suspect of spying. ussualy suspected diplomats dont get kicked out untill substantial evidence is presented.

Cherk put it very well...

Side note: you'll look smarter if you think before you write.

[shuravee]

Damn Britain expel four Russians, Russia expel four British. Such answer it's a common practice. After British minister ask Russia to make an amendment in Russian constitution special for Britain - it's no wonder.

[Thom]

Well that was totally unexpected.

[DeltaWhisky58]

This topic has already been discussed, abused and closed elsewhere, therefore this thread will go accordingly.

I have now merged both threads, and they are clearly linked the second referring to knock-on effects of the first.

Do not open any further threads on this topic of discussion. It has been proven that they can not be discussed without flame wars ensuing.

[Wiseman]

Although Susumu is being funny by that last statement, his comment maybe not far from the truth. Corruption exists on all levels. Just remember, Lugovoi was Berezovsky's bodyguard at one point. All the Russians in the case have acquired a substantial amount of power/money and knew each other during which leads one to hypothesize that this was more likely a personal and business related incident. I think both of them are using this as a way to influence foreign policy since they essentially become mouthpieces for the government while being displayed by the media. I mean look at Lugovoi, he is going to various news agencies and giving interviews. He is making more money out of this. I saw his interview with RTVI which is a channel one can get in the US.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I have now merged yet another thread on this topic.

Do not open any further threads on this topic unless you wish a lengthy break from the forums.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I have now merged yet another thread on this topic.

Do not open any further threads on this topic unless you wish a lengthy break from the forums.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I have now merged yet another thread on this topic.

Do not open any further threads on this topic unless you wish a lengthy break from the forums.