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JVeld
07-17-2007, 07:58 AM
Pretty intersting article that I came across this morning,

Russian President Vladimir Putin was supposed to be a pro-American reformer. So what went wrong?

July 23, 2007 issue - George Bush stood with his hand on Vladimir Putin's shoulder. It was November 2001, and the two leaders had just enjoyed Texas steaks personally barbecued by Bush at his family ranch, before heading to Crawford High School to address an audience of students. "It's my honor to welcome a new style of leader," Bush said as he introduced the Russian president. "A reformer, a man who loves his country as much as I love mine." Putin had been the first foreign leader to call in the hours after 9/11 to offer support in the War on Terror, recalled Bush. "When I was in high school, Russia was an enemy," he continued. "Now Russia is a friend." Putin, responding with his trademark shy smile, praised Bush's recent victory over the Taliban in Afghanistan and offered his "congratulations to those who have been liberated by [the U.S.] armed forces, and their relatives."
It is hard to imagine such happy scenes today—let alone Putin's congratulating Iraqis on their "liberation." True, Putin still enjoys Bush-family hospitality, dining last month on lobsters at Bush's parents' home in Kennebunkport, Maine. But though his shy smile remains the same, behind it is a very changed man. The new Putin, in the words of his adviser Gen. Gennady Troshev, former commander of the Russian Army in Chechnya, is "a different person—tough, stern, harsh with those who dare to doubt his orders."
And he doesn't mince words. In Munich last February, Putin railed against America the "hyperpower" that flouted international law. Later, he compared Washington's hegemony to the Third Reich's and threatened to redirect Russian nukes at Europe. At Crawford, Bush praised Putin as someone "who is going to [help] make the world more peaceful by working closely with the United States." Instead, Putin is fast becoming the self-styled architect of an "alternative pole of power" to the United States. Abroad, he has forged alliances with pariah states. At home, he has become something very close to an autocrat, creating puppet opposition parties, cracking down on dissidents and strangling media freedom.
What changed? How did Putin go from Bush's friend and ally to being an assertive nationalist, befriending and arming America's enemies? To hear the Russians tell it, it's the United States's fault. Putin's trust was betrayed by Washington, says Georgy Arbatov, former head of the Duma's Defense Committee. First, the United States ignored Russian objections to invading Iraq, then it encroached on Russia's traditional sphere of influence in the Baltics, Central Asia, the Caucasus and Ukraine. "Instead of respecting Russia's views, the West supported Putin's opponents," argues Arbatov. "Putin became deeply disappointed, and bitter." The real turning point came when Washington-backed "color" revolutions toppled Moscow-friendly regimes in Georgia and Ukraine in 2003-04.

Suddenly, the enemy was at the gate, installing pro-Western governments in Russia's backyard. "Putin's world tilted on its axis," says Kremlin-connected analyst Stanislav Belkovsky, head of the Moscow-based Institute of National Strategy. "It was a profound shock; Putin's circle became convinced that they could be the next regime to fall." Putin had begun reining in Russia's independent media as soon as he came to power, but in the color revolutions' aftermath, the Kremlin immediately ordered a far tougher crackdown on any groups that could foment regime change. Loyal businessmen and state companies such as Gazprom were encouraged by the Kremlin to buy up Russia's remaining dissident media, and strict controls were brought in on broadcasters' editorial line. Nongovernmental organizations were banned from accepting foreign funding, forcing dozens to close. Most sinister of all, new laws were passed criminalizing "extremism"—defined as "defaming the state"—as well as allowing Russian spooks to covertly assassinate "enemies" abroad.
Moscow also began a root-and-branch rethink of Russia's relationship to the United States. "Putin's illusions about America were shattered," says political scientist Vyacheslav Nikonov, a regular Kremlin adviser, recalling the policy review following the color revolutions. "No matter how much Russia supported the U.S., [Washington] still retained the same, essentially hostile, attitude." Since then, fears of Western encirclement have only increased as NATO makes overtures to Georgia and Ukraine and plans to station antimissile batteries in Poland and the Czech Republic.
Putin's response to these threats has been radical: he wants no less than "to change the rules of the world," says Sergei Karaganov, a foreign-policy adviser to the Kremlin. "The world should be ready to deal with a strong Russia." In practice, Putin means not only to restore Russia's lost might, but also to make Russia the principal counterbalance to U.S. power on the world stage. In a 2005 speech, Putin called the collapse of the Soviet Union "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century," and fondly recalled the old "bipolar" world where two superpowers checked each other's ambitions.
Luckily for Putin, the fortunes of the world economy are behind him. Sky-high energy prices have boosted Russia's economy by 40 percent in five years.
A large chunk of the cash has gone into rebuilding the beleaguered Russian Army. Putin has pledged the military $189 billion over five years, commissioning a new generation of ICBMs specifically designed to evade a U.S. missile defense shield and ordering up six new carrier battle groups, which—if they are actually built according to plan—will make the Russian Navy even mightier than its Soviet predecessor within 20 years.

More worrying for Washington, Putin has taken advantage of the surge in anti-Americanism that followed the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Like his Soviet predecessors, Putin has made friends with many of the world's malcontents, selling arms and missile systems to Venezuela, Syria and Iran, and offering nuclear reactors to Burma and Saudi Arabia. Before his visit to Kennebunkport last month, Putin hosted Bush-baiting Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez in Moscow, where they signed a $3 billion arms deal. In February Putin toured the Middle East, scorning American efforts to democratize the region and making a play for the loyalty of U.S. allies like Saudi Arabia and Jordan. "Putin is a Soviet politician with a Soviet mind-set," says Olga Kryshtanovskaya, a leading sociologist at Russia's Academy of Sciences. "Like the Soviets, he sees the world in terms of opposing camps. His plan is to march around the world with an anti-American flag in his hands."

Does all this mean that Putin wants to start a new cold war? Not necessarily. Rather, says former deputy prime minister Irina Khakamada, Putin desperately wants to be treated as Bush's equal. "When I spoke to Putin about relations with the U.S., his eyes lit up," recalls Khakamada. "It's a very personal thing for him. He wants to prove that America should not treat us like simpletons."
Equality, to Putin, means no more patronizing lectures from the West on Russia's history—or its dismal human-rights record. Russia, he believes, has nothing to be ashamed of. As he told a group of visiting teachers last month, foreigners "must not be allowed to impose a feeling of guilt on us—after all, we did not use nuclear weapons against a civilian population [like the United States in Nagasaki]." Equality means the right to squash Russia's enemies as fiercely as America has attacked its own—witness the recent liquidation by Russian assassins of former Chechen president Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev who had been hiding out in Qatar. But above all, equality means respecting the Kremlin's voice. "It's about drawing a line in the sand," says a senior Western diplomat in Moscow not authorized to speak on the record. "It's about saying, 'We're back, you can't push us around anymore'."
At base, then, the new Putin wants respect—and to stake out a Russian sphere of influence in which the West won't interfere, even if Moscow bullies its neighbors (as it did with Georgia last November over a spying row) or fixes their elections (as in Ukraine in 2004). For the time being, there's precious little the United States can do to check Russia's new imperial mood, since it needs Putin's continued support on the U.N. Security Council for sanctions on Iran.
Fortunately, Putin's bullishness, for all its rhetorical flourish, doesn't necessarily have to lead to serious confrontation. Putin's offer to Bush at last month's G8 summit in Germany to make the Gabala radar listening station in Azerbaijan part of an alternative missile shield (obviating, Putin hopes, the proposed outposts in Poland and the Czech Republic) was an important olive branch. So was Putin's assurance at Kennebunkport that he shared "many of America's concerns" about Iran's nuclear program. Putin, perhaps, is conscious that luck won't hold forever—and that his imperial dreams are underpinned by little more than a freak high in the world's energy markets. Europe, for its part, is seeking alternative energy supplies, specifically to reduce its strategic reliance on Russia. And the U.S. will eventually extract itself from the quagmire in Iraq. In time Putin, or more likely his hand-picked successor, will come to see that true greatness means more than just saying "nyet" to the West.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19761840/site/newsweek/page/3/

Kangars
07-17-2007, 08:34 AM
OMG! this article was translated on popular russian web site dedicated to translations of foreign press.
http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/05/29/2996/235558.html (http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/05/29/2996/235558.html)
those able to understand russian let's compare comments!!

INAT
07-17-2007, 10:54 PM
Good post.I welcome a stronger Russia.There needs to be a balance of power and at the current time it is not evenly distributed.(Wow that sounds
rather Communist :)) The question should be when will America
start treating Russia (whom can be a value against jihad and Iran and the whole lot) with respect and equal.And to be fair the same goes for Russia. Good read thanks

Smersh
07-17-2007, 11:59 PM
Putin railed against America the "hyperpower"
He "railed"?? has anyone actually seen the speech being delevired it was done as polite as possible. He never actually specifically mentioned the United States either.

INAT
07-18-2007, 12:02 AM
He "railed"?? has anyone actually seen the speech being delevired it was done as polite as possible. He never actually specifically mentioned the United States either.


No i think he did a rail before the speech.It is slang for to snort cocaine or other snortables. :) All that matters is under Putin the life of the average Russian has vastly improved from a wage of $50 a month to whats the average now i think $500? Ziveli Putin!:hug:

Marmot1
07-18-2007, 08:44 AM
Yes now the people who earned then 50$ get 55$ and these who had 1bn$ now have 2bn$.. thus avarege may be 500$...

Wiseman
07-18-2007, 04:18 PM
There's no way each individual I met while in Russia earned about 12,500 rubles per month. The average figure may be bumped up by the New Russians who open up businesses and don't pay taxes. They find loop holes in tax law that allow them to pay taxes through their small business and somehow not pay their normal taxes. They don't trade their rubles for dollars in banks because the banks put too many fees on the conversion. Instead they go to places in parking lot where these guys sit in vans and convert for a different rate with no fees. Funny how the dollar wrappings seems to have the bank tags (Oh oh someone is stealing). There is no way Putin's presence directly correlates to people doing better financially. More like Russian ingenuity in outsmarting the government through corrupt methods.

Russian_dude
07-19-2007, 04:57 AM
No need to find loopholes. Russia has a flat rate tax. Around 14% I think and tough tax commando squads. Most everybody pays their taxes now.

asch
07-19-2007, 05:28 AM
There's no way each individual I met while in Russia earned about 12,500 rubles per month. The average figure may be bumped up by the New Russians who open up businesses and don't pay taxes. They find loop holes in tax law that allow them to pay taxes through their small business and somehow not pay their normal taxes. They don't trade their rubles for dollars in banks because the banks put too many fees on the conversion. Instead they go to places in parking lot where these guys sit in vans and convert for a different rate with no fees. Funny how the dollar wrappings seems to have the bank tags (Oh oh someone is stealing). There is no way Putin's presence directly correlates to people doing better financially. More like Russian ingenuity in outsmarting the government through corrupt methods.
come on. :cantbeli:there is no way you can live with such income in my city. it's like a rent + some food, nothing more. here you must work harder to make at least ~1500 bucks per month income to live in acceptable conditions.

daily666
07-19-2007, 05:36 AM
No need to find loopholes. Russia has a flat rate tax. Around 14% I think and tough tax commando squads. Most everybody pays their taxes now.

13%, very good move by Putin btw. The collection of taxes have risen by 70% after the tax reform. Sorry for a small OT.

Wiseman
07-19-2007, 12:06 PM
Russian dude,

Do you actually believe that they pay their taxes? They told me in confidence that they do not pay them and basically steal. So saying "most everbody pays their taxes now" is kind of inaccurate. Those tough commando squads or the people who send them can be easily bribed. I want you to look at a village and ask yourself whether corruption exists when you see these new brick built dachas with gardens standing next to a 1940s built shack for a lack of a better word. You think that those people built them through hard earned money? I think not. It is not hearsay because I talked to people there. Corruption in Russia exists to a larger extent than most countries. India has more corruption than Russia though. My friend came back from New Delhi recently.

asch,

Where is here? I just translated the figure from the dollar average they gave since it's 25+-1 rubles to a dollar. If you are talking about Moscow, that is because it is one of the most expensive cities to live in the world along with St.Petersburg.

asch
07-20-2007, 08:20 AM
Vladivostok, farfarfareast of Russia p-)

Russian_dude
07-20-2007, 09:51 AM
Russian dude,

Do you actually believe that they pay their taxes? They told me in confidence that they do not pay them and basically steal. So saying "most everbody pays their taxes now" is kind of inaccurate. Those tough commando squads or the people who send them can be easily bribed. I want you to look at a village and ask yourself whether corruption exists when you see these new brick built dachas with gardens standing next to a 1940s built shack for a lack of a better word. You think that those people built them through hard earned money? I think not. It is not hearsay because I talked to people there. Corruption in Russia exists to a larger extent than most countries. India has more corruption than Russia though. My friend came back from New Delhi recently.

asch,

Where is here? I just translated the figure from the dollar average they gave since it's 25+-1 rubles to a dollar. If you are talking about Moscow, that is because it is one of the most expensive cities to live in the world along with St.Petersburg.

Most people do pay their taxes if they make money from a legal business.

LEGEND
07-20-2007, 10:51 PM
Most businesses in Russia do not pay taxes, or if they do, far from the full amount, otherwise it would be impossible to stay afloat with the competition that does not pay the taxes.

shaytan
07-22-2007, 06:59 AM
double post

shaytan
07-22-2007, 07:01 AM
Most businesses in Russia do not pay taxes, or if they do, far from the full amount, otherwise it would be impossible to stay afloat with the competition that does not pay the taxes.

Where do you get this information? You personally know that all successful businesses do not pay taxes? You have statistical information to back that up?

The number of businesses - regular businesses mind you, that do not pay taxes, has dropped significantly since tax reforms began 6 years ago. It is more profitable to actually pay taxes, rather than not and get caught.

Average salary did rise to about $500 (not counting Moscow, which is entirely different country of its own). Social reform continues, so currently living standards continue to improve. Of course issues remain, but despite all - changes in the past 5 years are drastic.

LEGEND
07-22-2007, 02:22 PM
Well i was wrong to say that they "don't pay taxes", what I wanted to say was that they do pay taxes but try their best not to pay the full amount while trying to exploit various available loopholes.

Dima-RussianArms
07-22-2007, 09:07 PM
Well i was wrong to say that they "don't pay taxes", what I wanted to say was that they do pay taxes but try their best not to pay the full amount while trying to exploit various available loopholes.

As does everybody else around the world, so what is your point?

Flamming_Python
07-22-2007, 09:15 PM
As does everybody else around the world, so what is your point?

True.

But in Russia there are simply more loopholes p-)
Plus Russians have a knack for exploiting such things anyway.

CHERK
07-22-2007, 09:55 PM
Many small businesses have double books.

As someone mentioned a lot of people don’t show their full income, but with the introduction of reasonable mortgage rates, in order to be approved for a credit many are switching to legitimate salaries.

shaytan
07-23-2007, 03:05 AM
True.

But in Russia there are simply more loopholes p-)
Plus Russians have a knack for exploiting such things anyway.

I don't think that there are more loopholes. Not more than in the States or anywhere else. It is corruption that creates possibilities to avoid paying taxes - and today it is far more dangarous to be involved in a corruption scheme for regular business.

And majority of businesses are inept at exploiting the available loopholes, so saying that Russians have a knack at exploting some loopholes - is a myth. Any other nation in similar circumstances would have exactly as much knack for that. :)

JVeld
07-23-2007, 08:10 AM
Yes now the people who earned then 50$ get 55$ and these who had 1bn$ now have 2bn$.. thus avarege may be 500$...
Not according to this my friend !

Average Wage in Russia Tops $500/Month


The average gross monthly wage in Russia in June was 13,810 rubles, that is, more than $500, according to Rosstat, the federal statistics service. The average for the second quarter was 13,040 rubles, the first time that the average monthly wage in Russia topped $500, with the exception of December 2006. Analysts say that the rising wage would threaten Russia's competitiveness if it remained steady, but they do not expect that to happen.


The strengthening of the rubles, which exchanged for 26.5/$ in January and now is at the level of 25.4/$, is largely to thank for reaching the psychologically significant mark. In annual terms, wages are rising by 20-27 percent, with the June wage being 25 percent higher than that of June of last year. Wages have risen 60 percent in the last two years, doubled in the last three years and increased 750 percent in the last eight years. The per capita rate of growth is somewhat lower. That was 12,200 rubles in June, 18 percent higher than June of last year, due to the fact that pensions and social benefits are rising significantly slower than wages.

Real wages (adjusted for inflation) were 15.2 percent higher in June 2007 over June 2006 and 17.5 percent higher in the first half of the year over last year's first half. Real disposable income (wages minus obligatory payments adjusted for inflation) rose even less. It was 7.9 percent this June over last June, and 11.2 percent The first half of this year over the same period last year.

While wages in Russia are much lower than in Europe and the United States, prices are comparable. Russia lags behind Eastern Europe as well as Western Europe. The Average monthly wage in 2006 in Slovakia was $750, in Hungary $882, in Poland $875, in the Czech Republic $976. In China, last year's average monthly wage was $230.

http://kommersant.com/p788940/macroeconomics_standard_of_living/

Chwyatt
07-23-2007, 10:07 AM
Does America disrespect Russia?

Is it disrespect if states of the former Soviet Union want to join NATO? Surely it is up to Latvia or the Ukraine to decide their foreign and security policies?

“Respect Russia” seems to mean “let Russia decide the policies of its neighbours…by force if necessary”.

And why can’t America build a system to defend itself? Yes I know that means it is a lot more difficult for Russia to blow up America (and to some American’s that proves the rationale for a defensive missile system). So why doesn’t Russia spend its money on a defensive system as well? That way, Russia can show it is not an imperial power… unless that is what it wants to be.

And it seems both sides need to be honest about their history. America used liqor and the Springfield rifle to commit genocide on native Americans and the Soviets used famine as a weapon against non-Russians. And from Guantanamo Bay to Chechnya, both still have little grounds to criticise the other.

Serjey
07-23-2007, 10:22 AM
Does America disrespect Russia?

Is it disrespect if states of the former Soviet Union want to join NATO? Surely it is up to Latvia or the Ukraine to decide their foreign and security policies?
.
Well, NATO is millitary alliance with the lead of USA, potential enemy of Russia, and noone needs military bases of potential enemy near own borders. Russia dont prevent these states to join EU or whatever else, but NATO is first of all millitary alliance as i said.

“Respect Russia” seems to mean “let Russia decide the policies of its neighbours…by force if necessary”.
.
After USSR fell, there were no military forse conflicts between Russia and their neibors, just political and economic issues.

And why can’t America build a system to defend itself? Yes I know that means it is a lot more difficult for Russia to blow up America (and to some American’s that proves the rationale for a defensive missile system). So why doesn’t Russia spend its money on a defensive system as well? That way, Russia can show it is not an imperial power… unless that is what it wants to be.
.
Russia dont mind about USA`s defence system at USA`s territory, but when defencive(that could be upgraded to offencive) systems are situated near russia borders its really looks like a threat. The most crazy thing is RADAR in Czrech, that could scan half Russia`s territory. BTW Russia spends money for defencive and offencive systems, they are just not so widely published and propaganded as USA`s, and defencive systems i`m shure under "top secret" article.


And it seems both sides need to be honest about their history. America used liqor and the Springfield rifle to commit genocide on native Americans and the Soviets used famine as a weapon against non-Russians. And from Guantanamo Bay to Chechnya, both still have little grounds to criticise the other.
Thats what Putin told at meeting with Bush to press: (We have same problems as the rest of the western world, dont blame us or tell us what to do, we cant afford it in any case.) or smth like that.

Chwyatt
07-23-2007, 10:36 AM
Fair point Serjey. Whilst I understand the US wanting a defensive system, I also understand that a system that allows the US to monitor Russian air-space would upset Russia.

America has been insensitive and counter-productive in wanting to bases systems in Eastern Europe.

Flamming_Python
07-23-2007, 12:01 PM
Does America disrespect Russia?

Is it disrespect if states of the former Soviet Union want to join NATO? Surely it is up to Latvia or the Ukraine to decide their foreign and security policies?

Yes of course it's up to them. But let's cut the crap, we both know that this is not how Politics works in real life. Just like if Mexico would want to join a Chinese-led security organisation in the future, the Americans, Mexicans and Chinese would know full well that this would be a move against America, and there would be no reason for America to stand for it (despite all the arguements about "Mexico's choice", etc...).

Powerful countries need to respect each other's back yards, or we could end up with WW3. If America thinks it has the power to ignore everyone's else's national interests (Superpowers generally do), then just make sure America can withstand the backlash and alliances ranged against it that will latter develop.

JVeld
07-23-2007, 12:10 PM
Yes of course it's up to them. But let's cut the crap, we both know that this is not how Politics works in real life. Just like if Mexico would want to join a Chinese-led security organisation in the future, the Americans, Mexicans and Chinese would know full well that this would be a move against America, and there would be no reason for America to stand for it (despite all the arguements about "Mexico's choice", etc...).

Powerful countries need to respect each other's back yards, or we could end up with WW3. If America thinks it has the power to ignore everyone's else's national interests (Superpowers generally do), then just make sure America can withstand the backlash and alliances ranged against it that will latter develop.
Good point....