U.S assessments on Israel's plans for Iran's nuclear program

[S'13]

US: Israel may strike Iranian nuclear plants
By JPOST.COM STAFF


Israel may be preparing to attack Iranian nuclear facilities within the year, according to US administration assessments reported on Army Radio Saturday morning.

Officials say that the attempt to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons has been discussed at various levels, as well as the effects such an attack would have on US military and political efforts in Iraq and in the Persian Gulf.

The UPI news service says President George Bush and Prime Minster Ariel Sharon recently discussed the subject at their most recent meeting. Following the meeting, Bush said it was inconceivable for the Middle East for Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1083998346048

[-=P=-]

Don’t think it’s going to happen but if, then Israel will get a full war and that’s why it will not happen, nor could Israel harm the Iranian program significantly only the civilian reactor is attackable.

[S'13]

Don’t think it’s going to happen but if, then Israel will get a full war and that’s why it will not happen

I don't remember a war after the attack on the Osirak reactor.

Iran may use Hizbullah to try and get back at us but they won't attack Israel directly.


nor could Israel harm the Iranian program significantly only the civilian reactor is attackable.

Why is that?

[UoUo]

But as much as i know iran simple don't have the power to strike Israel..their plans can't get into israel. particular after the US took Iraq..and iran have to pass iraq until they can get us.

The few thing that iran can do are : bomb us with Balstic missiles.

Or use the hizbulla to bomb the north.

I willing to take the chances.

[Pille1234]

I'm sure the Iranians have learned from Osirak and have taken precautions to prevent an israeli attack. Their research and production facilities are probaly distributed over the country.
First of all, I don't know if israeli planes could reach Iran and get home without inflight refueling over iraq and second I don't belive the Israelis are stupid enough to use the same tactic twice.
Btw I wonder if the USA should allow to use iraqi airspace since this would have serious political impact for iraq, the US and all coaliton forces.

[UoUo]

I'm sure the Iranians have learned from Osirak and have taken precautions to prevent an israeli attack. Their research and production facilities are probaly distributed over the country.
First of all, I don't know if israeli planes could reach Iran and get home without inflight refueling over iraq and second I don't belive the Israelis are stupid enough to use the same tactic twice.
Btw I wonder if the USA should allow to use iraqi airspace since this would have serious political impact for iraq, the US and all coaliton forces.

The IAf can reach iran...no dout...both F-15I and F-16I.

And the US can say : we didn't know.

[mustamato]

I'm sure the Iranians have learned from Osirak and have taken precautions to prevent an israeli attack. Their research and production facilities are probaly distributed over the country.
First of all, I don't know if israeli planes could reach Iran and get home without inflight refueling over iraq and second I don't belive the Israelis are stupid enough to use the same tactic twice.
Btw I wonder if the USA should allow to use iraqi airspace since this would have serious political impact for iraq, the US and all coaliton forces.

The IAf can reach iran...no dout...both F-15I and F-16I.

And the US can say : we didn't know.

"We didn´t know" :roll: They would have time to shoot down them 1000 times
with their fighters and/or SAM-batteries before the IAF would reach Iran. Israel
has no business in Iraq, and if they would use Iraqi airspace that would be an
act of war. However I doubt that the Iraqi puppet council would declare war on
Israel, but the people might do.

[HELEX]

I'm sure the Iranians have learned from Osirak and have taken precautions to prevent an israeli attack. Their research and production facilities are probaly distributed over the country.
First of all, I don't know if israeli planes could reach Iran and get home without inflight refueling over iraq and second I don't belive the Israelis are stupid enough to use the same tactic twice.
Btw I wonder if the USA should allow to use iraqi airspace since this would have serious political impact for iraq, the US and all coaliton forces.

The IAf can reach iran...no dout...both F-15I and F-16I.

And the US can say : we didn't know.

"We didn´t know" :roll: They would have time to shoot down them 1000 times
with their fighters and/or SAM-batteries before the IAF would reach Iran. Israel
has no business in Iraq, and if they would use Iraqi airspace that would be an
act of war. However I doubt that the Iraqi puppet council would declare war on
Israel, but the people might do.

UoUo is just twelve or younger.... :roll:

[UoUo]

:cantbeli: :roll:

[hey]

mustamato wrote:

However I doubt that the Iraqi puppet council would declare war on
Israel, but the people might do.

Do you realy think the Iraqi people care if Israeli planes fly over thier sky in purpse of attacking Irans (an enemy of Iraq) nuclear insatllations?

[Pille1234]

mustamato wrote:

However I doubt that the Iraqi puppet council would declare war on
Israel, but the people might do.

Do you realy think the Iraqi people care if Israeli planes fly over thier sky in purpse of attacking Irans (an enemy of Iraq) nuclear insatllations?
What an unworldly question. Of course they care. Jesus, they don't like their new flag because it looks to much 'israeli style'. Isn't this fact answer enough? Most arabs are paranoid in terms of Israel. Israeli planes flying over iraq would further fuel the well known conspiracy theories and deliver more martyrs for iraq.

[hey]

How the Iraqi people would know Israeli planes flew over thier heads?

[mustamato]

How the Iraqi people would know Israeli planes flew over thier heads?

:roll:

You think the Iranians would say nothing and hide the fact that Israel had
declared war on them? And besides, the Iraqis have access to foreign media,
the Israeli media would probably write about it. As they did when Osirak was bombed.

[Pille1234]

How the Iraqi people would know Israeli planes flew over thier heads?
How learned the iraqi ppl about the torture in their Prison? Arab media would be a way. And the Iranians don't live in stone age, they have radars and fighter planes. Where do israli planes go when leaving the iranian western border?

[hey]

My qeustion was How the Iraqi people (it can be changed to: the "whole world", include the Israeli press) would know the planes went over Iraq, and not if the Iraqi people would know about the attack.

When Osirak was bombed the planes were detected only when they started their finel approach to bomb it.

[Argyll]

How the Iraqi people would know Israeli planes flew over thier heads?
How learned the iraqi ppl about the torture in their Prison? Arab media would be a way. And the Iranians don't live in stone age, they have radars and fighter planes. Where do israli planes go when leaving the iranian western border?

The Iraqis would not know until after and by then it's done and dusted,they're so used to aircraft from the Coalition flying overhead and at night do you think they would know it was actually Israeli's.......not a chance in hell.

[born_to_kill]

Iran and Iraq hate eachother, wouldnt the Iraqis appreciate it if we bombed Iran?

[Pille1234]

How the Iraqi people would know Israeli planes flew over thier heads?
How learned the iraqi ppl about the torture in their Prison? Arab media would be a way. And the Iranians don't live in stone age, they have radars and fighter planes. Where do israli planes go when leaving the iranian western border?

The Iraqis would not know until after and by then it's done and dusted,they're so used to aircraft from the Coalition flying overhead and at night do you think they would know it was actually Israeli's.......not a chance in hell.
Right, after the attack they would get to know. How would a 'souvereign' iraqi government react? All they could do is to condemn the act. Would that be enough to cool down the iraqi anger? No. Does such a government look independent and representative or like a puppet regime that helps fullfilling israeli and american mastery over islamic world? Does this help to rebuild Iraq?

[HELEX]

Iran and Iraq hate eachother, wouldnt the Iraqis appreciate it if we bombed Iran?

No, because of a simple reason: They hate your People and the Americans much more than their neighbour. You cant even compare those Hate in its intensity....... sad but true. :|

[born_to_kill]

oh well they hate us as is, if we bomb the hell out of them , they will still hate us... sadly theres nothing we can do for the arabs to like us other than to go into the sea.

like when the bam earthquakes happened israel sent a team to iran (the most experienced team in resucing victims) and was kicked out, and all over the iraning propoganda press they wrote that the team were mosad agents :(

[Argyll]

How the Iraqi people would know Israeli planes flew over thier heads?
How learned the iraqi ppl about the torture in their Prison? Arab media would be a way. And the Iranians don't live in stone age, they have radars and fighter planes. Where do israli planes go when leaving the iranian western border?

The Iraqis would not know until after and by then it's done and dusted,they're so used to aircraft from the Coalition flying overhead and at night do you think they would know it was actually Israeli's.......not a chance in hell.
Right, after the attack they would get to know. How would a 'souvereign' iraqi government react? All they could do is to condemn the act. Would that be enough to cool down the iraqi anger? No. Does such a government look independent and representative or like a puppet regime that helps fullfilling israeli and american mastery over islamic world? Does this help to rebuild Iraq?

Yes but what could they do?...........Nothing,especially if this happes in the next 6 months,there is nothing Iraq would be able to do for the next 4-6 years,or until the Coalition finishes the reconstruction of their country,they will not have an Air defense system,they will not have a viable airforce,so other than condemn such an action they simply cannot do a thing.

Secondly you honestly think the Iraqis would be upset at their Historical enemy's Nuclear capabilities be destroyed?Especially if it lowers the chance of the Iranians ever using such weapons on them?

[hey]

Pille1234 ,
The question is still, How would they know that Israeli planes flew over them.
If no one from the IAF say no one will know it.

[mustamato]

Pille1234 ,
The question is still, How would they know that Israeli planes flew over them.
If no one from the IAF say no one will know it.

Are you dumb? Who the hell would it else be? JSDAF? Argentinian AF? You?

[Argyll]

Pille1234 ,
The question is still, How would they know that Israeli planes flew over them.
If no one from the IAF say no one will know it.

Are you dumb? Who the hell would it else be? JSDAF? Argentinian AF? You?

I think he has a valid point,aircraft flying over and In Iraq could be anyone,jesus Musty even civil Airliners fly over Iraq these days,I flew BA last week at 40K right over the West of Iraq,so again how would they know at the time they were IAF planes?

[hey]

you aren't making your self smarter by calling me dumb.

If the Israelis will choose high alttude flight , it could be american planes or whatever when they over Iraq.
another and better tatic is to choose low alttude flight and by that no one will detect them , it already been proven when Osirak was bombed.

Don't make fun of your self by trying to be "Mr. know it all"

[mustamato]

Pille1234 ,
The question is still, How would they know that Israeli planes flew over them.
If no one from the IAF say no one will know it.

Are you dumb? Who the hell would it else be? JSDAF? Argentinian AF? You?

I think he has a valid point,aircraft flying over and In Iraq could be anyone,jesus Musty even civil Airliners fly over Iraq these days,I flew BA last week at 40K right over the West of Iraq,so again how would they know at the time they were IAF planes?

Firstly because of the coalition. I assume that they have some sort of radars on their
carriers and what not. They know what´s in the air. If Israel would bomb Iran, I
mean who the hell would believe a US statement, "well we saw some UFO´s on
our radars, but you know guys, it was Sunday so we didn´t check it out", or "well
we saw something on our radars, but hell it could have been our own guys, or
maybe some contractors flying at Mach 0.9 towards Iran, we don´t know".

Secondly the Iranians would know what hit them, definitively. And well, finally it
wouldn´t take a genious to figure out which country would want to bomb Iran, and
also did it with US-supplied F-15I/F-16I´s with star of davids on them. I mean,
have you guys ever heard of Al-Jazeera? They have live coverage of everything
that Israel/USA does these days. In contrast to "Al-Hurra" that is :)

[Argyll]

Pille1234 ,
The question is still, How would they know that Israeli planes flew over them.
If no one from the IAF say no one will know it.

Are you dumb? Who the hell would it else be? JSDAF? Argentinian AF? You?

I think he has a valid point,aircraft flying over and In Iraq could be anyone,jesus Musty even civil Airliners fly over Iraq these days,I flew BA last week at 40K right over the West of Iraq,so again how would they know at the time they were IAF planes?

Firstly because of the coalition. I assume that they have some sort of radars on their
carriers and what not. They know what´s in the air. If Israel would bomb Iran, I
mean who the hell would believe a US statement, "well we saw some UFO´s on
our radars, but you know guys, it was Sunday so we didn´t check it out", or "well
we saw something on our radars, but hell it could have been our own guys, or
maybe some contractors flying at Mach 0.9 towards Iran, we don´t know".

Secondly the Iranians would know what hit them, definitively. And well, finally it
wouldn´t take a genious to figure out which country would want to bomb Iran, and
also did it with US-supplied F-15I/F-16I´s with star of davids on them.

Ok I see what your getting at,Israel cannot do this without the help of the Coalition in Iraq?
Yep I'd go along with that.

Tho tell me can you ID certain Aircraft at 40K ?Maybe a B52 but anything else is just guess work,at night time even at 10K you would NOT be able to pick out the type of A/c whether it had the Star of david ,or a Red star,or an RAF roundel on it.The only way you'd be able to tell it was the Israeli's if you shot one down,or they picked up "hebrew"chater,or the fact the Israeli's told them they were coming! ;)

[mustamato]

Why this obsession that the Iraqis must know it immediately? I´m sure they
be just as angry if they see it on the news the day after it happened. Yeah, CNN
will not say it, but the Arabic media will shout out that it was USrael that did it.

But well, I don´t think the Israelis have the balls to do it anyway.

[NcDeuce]

Why this obsession that the Iraqis must know it immediately? I´m sure they
be just as angry if they see it on the news the day after it happened. Yeah, CNN
will not say it, but the Arabic media will shout out that it was USrael that did it.

But well, I don´t think the Israelis have the balls to do it anyway.

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative17.jpg

[ExtraT]

You don't always have to visually ID an aircraft. As much as it pains me to agree with Musto, I have to this time: if IAF aircraft were to fly over Iraq, Coalition will be fully aware of it, and in real time.
BTW, this is exactly the reason why Israel haven't responded to Iraqi attack in 1991 (even though everything was ready) - The US didn't agree to give Israel the friend-foe recognition codes, which meant that if IAF fighters were to enter Iraqi airspace, they woould have been recognized as hostile.

However, there are certainly other ways to attack Iran, besides flying over Iraq. It may be possible to attack from the sea, or fly over Turkey, or using ballistic missiles with conventional warheads.

It is doubtful, though, that it will happen. Primarily, because such a strike will not end the Iranian nuclear program, only delay it (it was different with Iraq).

[born_to_kill]

Thats what they said before be bombed Iraq. The whole world condemned us back then, and then in the Gulf war the whole world praised Israel, imagine if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction .

[Argyll]

Why this obsession that the Iraqis must know it immediately? I´m sure they
be just as angry if they see it on the news the day after it happened. Yeah, CNN
will not say it, but the Arabic media will shout out that it was USrael that did it.

But well, I don´t think the Israelis have the balls to do it anyway.

Whose obsession about Iraq,I said there was fok all they could do about it other than condemn it,they're in no position to do anything else are they?

So they'll be angry the next day.............can you be certain of that or are you assuming?

Why would they get upset?It's not like they're bosom buddies is it?

Also remember Iraq contains 3 different factions,you think the Kurds give a rats ass about the Iranains?

I wouldn't bet they don't have the balls to do it,they've did this sort of thing before ;)

[SeanAshi]

UoUo just ignore the Euro pussies ;)

[SeanAshi]

Iran, Ayatollah, Mullahs
http://home.houston.rr.com/gopha1/other/sharowned.jpg

[Pille1234]

Argyl you get me wrong. I'm not talking about iraqi air defense. I'm talking about Bremer trying to establish a reliable iraqi government accepted by the iraqis and not seen as puppet. This is difficult enough right now, but the last chance is gone when al jazeera comes with that israel story. They don't need to see the plane in the sky. Noone would believe that israeli planes fly over iraq without knowledge and agreement of the US.
Finally I assume this would crack the coalition (except the Brits, they can do nothing but follow GWB), since this action would give the unwilling coalition members the reason they need to leave iraq.

[S'13]

Israel won't necessarily attack with aircrafts, you know... :roll:

[mustamato]

Israel won't necessarily attack with aircrafts, you know... :roll:

So you have your own Jamech Bondstein? Cool.

[Pille1234]

Israel won't necessarily attack with aircrafts, you know... :roll:
I'm sure they don't. Thats what the Iranians expect and why give your enemy the chance to be prepared?
Anyway I don't believe something will happen in the forseeable future...

[Argyll]

Israel won't necessarily attack with aircrafts, you know... :roll:

So you have your own Jamech Bondstein? Cool.

Sub sea launched cruise missile ;)

[S'13]

Israel won't necessarily attack with aircrafts, you know... :roll:

So you have your own Jamech Bondstein? Cool.

Sub sea launched cruise missile ;)

Exactly Argyll... woot

[Pille1234]

Israel won't necessarily attack with aircrafts, you know... :roll:

So you have your own Jamech Bondstein? Cool.

Sub sea launched cruise missile ;)
That is what I believe too. On the other hand, there are only 3 dolphins so far. If you imagine that they use 2 of them and have to attack more than one target there's not too much missile capability.
Besides their nuke research facilities, there are many other b+c wmd and enough long range ground missiles left in iran.

[Tane Angle]

I think Argyll makes a good point-perhaps we should think about an attack from the south coast, rather than one from the western border. Besides cruise missiles, which certainly would seem to be Israel's best option, there is a secondary option. Example: Earnest Will/Prime Chance. Fortunately for us, hist2004 was kind enough to have very recetly made a post discussing this operation in the history and tactics forum. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14085&sid=3ee9e735a2d49a402d41a7aba6197472

http://www.specialoperations.com/Operations/Prime_Chance/Hercules.jpg
(Note: I'd be happy to take this photo off if it is using SpecialOperations.com bandwith)
http://www.specialoperations.com/Operations/Prime_Chance/Operation_Profile.htm
http://www.mindspring.com/~cjenkins/photos.htm
http://globalsecurity.org/military/ops/earnest_will.htm

A tertiary option, tangent to the aforementioned one, is to have cargo aircraft fly into Iran carrying attack helicopters. In the early morning hours of Urgent Fury, SOAR helicopters were flown to Barbados, if I remember correctly, and were ready to go quickly, though they could have been ready even faster. The IAF could either make use of a desert landing strip (as in Operation Eagle Claw) or one of the Iranians' own airfields, taking it over with an assault force as in the Operation Jonathan (Entebbe) or the planned, but never executed, Night 2 airstrip seizure called for in the Eagle Claw plan.

Granted, such things are far-fetched, but they are also do-able, plausible secondary options. I'm just rambling though. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Argyll]

That's a great read Tane . ;)

[Tane Angle]

Thanks bud. How's it going? By the way, think should I ask that PMC question I asked you in that PM a few days ago to the whole message board?

Have a good one buddy.

[SeanAshi]

How about sabotage?

[ExtraT]

A tertiary option, tangent to the aforementioned one, is to have cargo aircraft fly into Iran carrying attack helicopters.


Attack helicopters lack the firepower necessary to destroy the target in question. Also, they will be much more susceptable to AA defences in the area (which are probably quite considerable).



The IAF could either make use of a desert landing strip (as in Operation Eagle Claw) or one of the Iranians' own airfields, taking it over with an assault force as in the Operation Jonathan (Entebbe) or the planned, but never executed, Night 2 airstrip seizure called for in the Eagle Claw plan.


Any landing strip seizure operation heavily relies on air support, which is what we're trying to avoid here. Operation Thunderbolt (Entebbe) cannot be used as an example, since there was virtually no opposing airforce to speak of. And even there, it was a concern big enough to delay the retreat and destroy the fighters on the ground.
Iranian airforce is much more capable than Ugandian.

The cruise missilies option is dependant on Israel having cruise missiles that can cover such distance, and this is very questionable (US repeatedly refused to sell the Tomahawk, and a domestic missile is only rumored).

My bet is that if the operation happens at all, it will employ ballistic missiles.

[Tane Angle]

From workers there who were turned/Israeli personnel on the inside, or from SOF personnel on the ground? Putting an assualt force on the ground is viable, but I wouldn't really recommend it. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[ExtraT]

How about sabotage?

Hmmmm... this is an inetersting option.
Israel had close ties with Iran before the revolution, Mossad may have a considerable presence there.

[Tane Angle]

True, ExtraT, it's a bad option, but rarely are ideas thrown out. Moral Machiavellianism, right?

I was thinking the same thing especially about the payloads. Even cruise missiles can't really do enough damage to the casings. BMs could, granted. And certain "burrowing" munitions could as well.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Nizark]

why would the airborne attack be the only thing on the table? I am not sure how blue water their navy is, but how about a sub attack with a few dozen cruise missiles

[NcDeuce]

Attack helicopters lack the firepower necessary to destroy the target in question. Also, they will be much more susceptable to AA defences in the area (which are probably quite considerable).


You obviously underestimate the potential of heliborne operations. I advise looking into Task Force Normandy and the subsequent operations done by Apaches and other Special Operations Aviation units.

[S'13]

The cruise missilies option is dependant on Israel having cruise missiles that can cover such distance, and this is very questionable (US repeatedly refused to sell the Tomahawk, and a domestic missile is only rumored).

My bet is that if the operation happens at all, it will employ ballistic missiles.

Israel has shown to be very capable in the field of cruise missilies, one example is the air-launched Popeye Turbo.

As for the use of ballistic missiles, I agree that this is also an option.
It is already well known that Israel is capable of hiting any point on earth with its missiles.

[SeanAshi]

We got like 12 aircraft carriers to bad we can't just park one in the Gulf......*BoomBoom* But it would be seen as the Great Satan attacking another country...yada yada yada..
Israel had close ties with Iran before the revolution, Mossad may have a considerable presence there.I think there is around 30,000 Iranian Jews, I'm sure they wouldn't let them near the place, freaing sabotage.

[Kilgor]

like Iraq, the world will condem such actions but secretly it will be praised.

But oh man, wont the euro pussies have a whinge about it.

[Tane Angle]

I think there is around 30,000 Iranian Jews

Good point. And any Israeli operation would have to ensure that the Iranian Jews are not slaughtered as retribution.

[usa320]

I think the best option is to just bomb the hell out of it with B-2's and F-117's so no one knows it, and just blame it on a faulty reactor or something.

[UoUo]

I think there is around 30,000 Iranian Jews

Good point. And any Israeli operation would have to ensure that the Iranian Jews are not slaughtered as retribution.

There aren't 30,000....more like 1000...or 100...

[Tane Angle]

That figure is SeanAshi's. I figured it didn't matter enough to bring the number issue up.

Regardless of the number, Israel does have a history of going to great lengths to ensure the safety of even small numbers of Jews around the world. Of course, on the other hand, Israel also has a history of being pragmatic and placing the safety of the many before the safety of the few.

Have a good one, and just thoughts...

[S'13]

Exact figure of Jews living in Iran: 11,500

[UoUo]

Exact figure of Jews living in Iran: 11,500

Are you sure? that it's not 30,000 but its still very much.

[S'13]

Exact figure of Jews living in Iran: 11,500

Are you sure? that it's not 30,000 but its still very much.

Actually no one knows the exact figure, I brought the lowest figure...

There is actually a figure (from the U.S Depatment of State) saying there are some 40,000(!) Jews living in Iran but I find that hard to belive.

[SeanAshi]

What type of air defense systems do the Iranians have set up?

[S'13]

What type of air defense systems do the Iranians have set up?

AFAIK the Iranians posses SA-6 and SA-3 surface-to-air batteries, whether they deployed them is a different matter...

[Midav]

23 April 1997
This article was inserted into the Congressional Record by Representative Solomon on 23 April 1997.

Russia is selling advanced air-defense systems to Iran, including the latest version of a hand-held anti-aircraft missile that Tehran intends to provide to Hezbollah terrorists, The Washington Times has learned.

Such transactions would violate a pledge Russian President Boris Yeltsin made during the 1994 summit with President Clinton to block all new conventional arms sales to Iran.

The missile sales talks took place in February and last month between Iranian intelligence agents and Russian arms brokers in Moscow, who offered S-300 series anti-aircraft missiles for sale at discount prices, Pentagon intelligence officials said.

The talks included the proposed sale by Moscow arms dealers of up to 500 advanced `Igla' anti-aircraft missiles worth more than $50,000 each, according to U.S. intelligence information. The officials identified the missiles as SA-18s.

Other arms deals involve proposed sales of T-72 tanks and Mi-17 helicopters. They are said to include one of Russia's intelligence services. The deals are being made outside the official Russian government arms sales agency.

The Pentagon officials said Iran's Ministry of Defense and Armed Forces Logistics is involved in buying the shoulder-fired Iglas, and plans to supply some of them to Hezbollah, the pro-Iranian group based in Lebanon that has been blamed for many international terrorist attacks.

The officials said a scientific and technical arm of the Iranian intelligence service that acquires foreign technology for Iran's weapons programs is involved in some of the weapons purchases. This indicates the weapons may be used by Tehran as models for local production.

It could not be learned whether the U.S. government has tried to halt the missile sales.


Vincent Cannistraro, a former CIA counterterrorism official, said the Iglas would give Hezbollah more effective capabilities for attacking Israeli helicopters and jets over southern Lebanon.

`It vastly increases the risk and danger to Israeli aircraft, and because they are transportable, they could be smuggled into Israel,' he said.

Hezbollah also could use the Iglas for attacks on civilian airliners, although less-capable shoulder-fired missiles already are in the hands of terrorists, Mr. Cannistraro said.

There are few reported cases of civil aircraft being shot down by shoulder-fired missiles .

Most Israeli military operations in southern Lebanon involve helicopter gunships, troop transports or U.S.-made warplanes.

The Pentagon officials said two S-300 systems with 96 missiles that were manufactured near Moscow this year are being offered to Iran for $180 million--$20 million less than the price charged by Russia's state arms exporter, Rosvooruzheniye.

The systems are either advanced SA-10s or the newer SA-12, both part of the S-300 series--weapons that are very effective against warplanes and have some capabilities for shooting down short-range missiles .

The S-300s would be delivered in two shipments within a year of signing a contract, the officials said.

The February talks between Iranian officials and Russian arms brokers involved the sale of three older SA-10 systems and 36 missiles worth about $90 million.

That deal, for SA-10s from components in Russia, Croatia and Kazakhstan, fell through but is now being brokered by a colonel in the Kazakh army, the Pentagon officials said.

The SAMs would vastly improve Iran's air defenses, which now include U.S.-made Hawks and older Russian and Chinese SA-2 and SA-5 systems.

Iran is in the process of building up a nationwide air defense system and recently purchased several advanced air defense radars from China capable of tracking up to 100 targets simultaneously.

According to the publication `Russia's Arms Catalogue,' produced by the Russian Defense Ministry, the advanced S-300 has a range of three to 92 miles; the Igla has a range of 30 feet to about 10,500 feet.

Iranian intelligence agents also are trying to buy tanks and helicopters from unofficial Russian arms brokers. The Pentagon officials said the tanks probably are T-72s and the helicopters are Mi-17 transports.

Disclosure of the secret Iran-Russia arms deals comes as Iranian government officials are visiting Russia.

Mr. Yeltsin met Friday in Moscow with Iranian parliamentary speaker Ali Akbar Nateq-Nouri and said cooperation between the two countries was `good, positive and with a tendency toward growth.'

The speaker, a possible presidential candidate in upcoming elections, signed several industrial, cultural and scientific agreements, including a pact to coproduce Tupulev jetliners.

Russia is Iran's largest arms supplier and has sold three Kilo-class submarines, several squadrons of MiG-29 fighter-bombers and related missiles .

Russian officials say Iranian military contracts with Rosvooruzheniye are worth about $1 billion a year; they noted that in 1995 Moscow and Tehran signed an $800 million deal for nuclear reactors to be built in Iran.

The United States has tried in vain to stop Moscow from selling the reactors.

In February, Vice President Al Gore complained to Russian officials about the country's transfer of SS-4 medium-range missile technology to Iran. Russian Prime Minister Victor Chernomydrin reportedly denied any SS-4 technology had been sold to Iran, because it would have violated Mr. Yeltsin's pledge not to conclude new arms deals with Tehran.


http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1997/us970423.htm

[Midav]

I've looked around and it seems like Iran may have a coupld batteries of SA-10's.

Should Israel do the strike by air, come in low, use ECM (ie common sense) and godspeed.

[S'13]

I've looked around and it seems like Iran may have a coupld batteries of SA-10's.

Should Israel do the strike by air, come in low, use ECM (ie common sense) and godspeed.

These SA-10's are a good opportunity to try out the MSOV... :D

[Midav]

I've looked around and it seems like Iran may have a coupld batteries of SA-10's.

Should Israel do the strike by air, come in low, use ECM (ie common sense) and godspeed.

These SA-10's are a good opportunity to try out the MSOV... :D

Agreed!

What's the range on it, anyway? Have read anywhere between 90km to 200+ km.

[S'13]

MSOV is a 2300 lbs. standoff air-launched glider dispenser, aimed at area targets such as airfields, SAM sites, dispersed equipment and personnel and maritime installations. With its 1490 lbs. modular-dispensing warhead, MSOV can deploy a variety of submunitions including anti-tank mines, dual-purpose bomblets, anti-runway penetrators etc.

A GPS/INS navigation system along with a state of the art avionics enables an on-the-ground or in-flight programming for autonomous gliding profile, and optimal direction of approach towards the target.

Based on its unique design, folding wings, and 30-in. suspension lugs, MSOV is compatible with fighter aircraft such as F-16, F-4, F-15 and others.

The development of MSOV is based on the updated operational needs of air-to-surface missions, along with the state of the art experience of IMI in the aerial standoff weapon systems.

In April '98 IMI concluded the initial development stage with a first demo flight test on an Israel Air Force F-16, including safe separation and wing deployment.

Main Characteristics
Total weight: 1050 Kg
Payload/Warhead: 675 kg/ 0.36 m3
Length: 3.97 m
Max Range: 100 Km

http://www.imi-israel.com/images/masov.jpg



http://www.imi-israel.com/imi/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.2.6.1.html

[ExtraT]

You obviously underestimate the potential of heliborne operations.

And you seem to underestimate the kind of targets that need to be destroyed. :)
We're talking reactor casings here - they are solid reinforced concrete domes several meters thick. Attack helicopters carry ATGMs, which in this case would at most burn a hole through, and inflict minimal damage inside.

[Midav]

Ty, S'13 :)

100 klicks should be enough. As said, come in low, fire the weapon and bye-bye SAM site woot

[scott]

am i the only one on this board that sees the utter insanity of this report?
i appreciate that its good for nationalist israelis to talk about striking out against the arab world but honestly- from a geopolitical standpoint this is completely unrealistic.
the technique of such an attack has been discussed here at length and i have no problem with that, the israeli air force could do it no question, but its just not going to happen

i will treat jpost.com as a reputable source the moment they stop writing phrases like "Every attack is like a nail in their coffin, and the IDF holds the hammer." (from http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14365)

granted, i will eat crow if it happens- but this is not 1981, nor is it the assasination of one man and his bodyguard
this would be a first strike
and i have faith that the united states, and the israeli leadership would be above such madness
just a thought...

[S'13]

am i the only one on this board that sees the utter insanity of this report?
i appreciate that its good for nationalist israelis to talk about striking out against the arab world but honestly- from a geopolitical standpoint this is completely unrealistic.

And you don't see the insanity in having a country controlled by religious extremists build a nuclear bomb?

I'm sure if you asked many people 20 years ago they would have told you a strike on Osirak was "completely unrealistic from a geopolitical standpoint".


will treat jpost.com as a reputable source the moment they stop writing phrases like "Every attack is like a nail in their coffin, and the IDF holds the hammer." (from http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14365)

That was an analysis made by a reporter (usually in analysis the reporter is entitled to write his opinion).

And the same report was publicized by Haaretz (very leftist newspaper).

[SeanAshi]

Anyone have a map of Iran with nuke & sam sites?

[S'13]

How about an amphibious attack (this is only relevant for the Bushehr facility) similar to that carried out in Operation "Raviv"?

Operation "Raviv"
On the night of the 8th September, 1969, 6 tanks and 3 APC'S were loaded on 3 landing crafts at Ras-Soder in the Sinai peninsula. All of these were Egyptian tanks and APC'S which were captured by the IDF, this in order to confuse the Egyptians. The landing force was secured by Israeli naval boats and naval commandoes. The landing began at 03:37 am on the 9th of September, 1969, 40 kilometers south of the Egyptian city of Suez. Immediately the armored landing force advanced south and managed to advance for over 50 kilometers, while doing so the force wreaked havoc behind the Egyptian lines, attacking Egyptian guard points, radar stations, military vehicles and other military targets. In the operation a Soviet general was run over and killed while he was driving along the route the landing force was taking. After 10 hours the force was evacuated and returned home safely.

[scott]

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031013-121441-2893r.htm

these rumors have happened before, give me one more source (that is not israeli army in origin) and your words would carry more weight

if it was to ever happen (and that would require *extreme* belligerence on the part of iran) it would be far more likely (as in dprk) that the united states would carry out such an attack- only after the most stringent of political pressure has been applied and all other options have failed
for that possibility check http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iran-strikes.htm

just some thoughts :) take care

[S'13]

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031013-121441-2893r.htm

these rumors have happened before, give me one more source (that is not israeli army in origin) and your words would carry more weight

if it was to ever happen (and that would require *extreme* belligerence on the part of iran) it would be far more likely (as in dprk) that the united states would carry out such an attack- only after the most stringent of political pressure has been applied and all other options have failed
for that possibility check http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iran-strikes.htm

just some thoughts :) take care

To tell you the truth, nothing is for sure.

But I hope, for our sake, that some sort of action will be taking against the Iranian nuclear program.

[catdat]

Here's a map.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/images/cia-map-tnrc.jpg

[scott]

i can appreciate the fear that israel must live under and the need to alleviate that fear
actually, i cant...
as a canadian i cant relate to being surrounded by my enemies, and maybe thats why i end up sounding pro-arab

but for the sake of the region, i hope the israeli government has faith in their deterrent, and trust that the international community will not let iran develop nuclear weapons and the means with which to deliver them

an attack would be a bad move, just as the fielding of nuclear weapons would be for iran

i just hope the hawks that believe otherwise do not prevail

[scott]

and for curiosity (and war games, hell ive done it too)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/nuke-fac.htm (theyres a map on the right)
and for an org overview http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/index.html

i know its all from one site, but john pike is an incredibly reliable and distinguished fellow

[S'13]

but for the sake of the region, i hope the israeli government has faith in their deterrent, and trust that the international community will not let iran develop nuclear weapons and the means with which to deliver them


The "international community" didn't do much to stop Saddam's nuclear program, what stopped him in the end were IAF F-15's and F-16's, if it was up to the "international community" Saddam would have invaded Kuwait armed with nuclear weapons ten years later or already used them against (how ironic) Iran at the time of the war between the two countries.

[NcDeuce]

You obviously underestimate the potential of heliborne operations.

And you seem to underestimate the kind of targets that need to be destroyed. :)
We're talking reactor casings here - they are solid reinforced concrete domes several meters thick. Attack helicopters carry ATGMs, which in this case would at most burn a hole through, and inflict minimal damage inside.

Apache = Knock out radar sites while something like 1991 happens... ;)

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/strike52.gif

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/strike32.gif

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/strike-2.gif

[-=P=-]

Don’t think it’s going to happen but if, then Israel will get a full war and that’s why it will not happen, nor could Israel harm the Iranian program significantly only the civilian reactor is attackable.

Damn it’s unbelievable how less you know about Iran... Some talk about Iranian Air defence using SA-2 and SA-3 that’s completely nonsense, Iran’s air defence force's primary SAM is an improved Iranian HAWK with an unknown number (30+ sites minimum) about all that are child toys as a few kilometres next to the Bushir reactor, is a main tactical fighter base one of the ones, equipped with F-14 Tomcats and Israel have nothing comparable to it...

Imagine an successful air attack, how Israelis want to go back over flat Iraq and Arabia, they will get their long range AIM-54's in the back by Tomcats which are near their base and can fly with afterburner at Mach 2...

There is no chance for such a strike, expect Israelis fire 100km stand-off missiles en masse and fly with full speed back but Tomcats are there and will hunt them to death.

Tomcats are what Israel fears not even one of the Iranian S-300 sites is a greater danger.

Ah and please don’t come with Iranian Tomcats are no more in service, or the Tomcat is old and bad because it is replaced by the Super Bug in the USN.

Next point, some are saying Iran could not attack Israel... well Iran has massively invested in a Conventional ballistic missile system, much money is going to this program and the main fruit is the Shahab-3. Think about dozens (if not much over 100) of those 100-150m CEP 1000-1300kg Payload missiles land in Israel... Ah could Iran not even attack Dimona, like you attack my reactor and we yours ?

The Hizbollah will also get its order and do some job’s...

I can only say Iran is not Iraq and Iran can, will and has all the rights to strike hard back, too hard for the Israelis the risk is too high, by all thrust to Arrow and Arrow 2...

The only useable option would be a CM attack out from the gulf Oman, but for me all this things are out of question, because of the payback and Israel knows this also.

[UoUo]

The iranian F-14 can't comare to the Israelis F-16I and F-15I. POINT.


Anyway...i think Israel will strike in the most unexpected way.


A full war with iran won't be so scary then iran with Nukes...and about That..i think everyone in Israel agree.

What iran can do? fire at us 50 balstic missile? i willing to pay the price.

[AirZone]

btw how much Arrows we have ? enough.. no ? :D


btw old tomcats with old radar and old missiles do not compare to pyhton5 and derby missiles with the latest head up display and one of the best radars in the world (im not talking about the ****ty radars that usa gave us not offense.. im talking about ALTA radar if im not mistaken)


believe me it will be like six days war
they wont know what hit them...

[UoUo]

btw how much Arrows we have ? enough.. no ? :D


btw old tomcats with old radar and old missiles do not compare to pyhton5 and derby missiles with the latest head up display and one of the best radars in the world (im not talking about the ****ty radars that usa gave us not offense.. im talking about ALTA radar if im not mistaken)


believe me it will be like six days war
they wont know what hit them...

אחי אסור להיות יותר מדי שחצנים

[ExtraT]

Iran has massively invested in a Conventional ballistic missile system, much money is going to this program and the main fruit is the Shahab-3.


And Israel has massively invested in a misslie defence system. :)



The Hizbollah will also get its order and do some job’s...


As I said before, Hizbullah, being a terrorist organization, is just a mildly annoying fly. A confrontaion with Iran will probably not engage the ground forces too much, and they will have plenty of opportunity to deal with anything Hizbullah throws at them (which isn't much)


There is one thing you are right about: such an attack will not happen because it would not be practical. Iranian nuclear program is virtual devoid of "panacea targets", and destroying just one reactor will not stop it.

[AirZone]

btw how much Arrows we have ? enough.. no ? :D


btw old tomcats with old radar and old missiles do not compare to pyhton5 and derby missiles with the latest head up display and one of the best radars in the world (im not talking about the ****ty radars that usa gave us not offense.. im talking about ALTA radar if im not mistaken)


believe me it will be like six days war
they wont know what hit them...

אחי אסור להיות יותר מדי שחצנים

Why ? USA didnt want to put the Israeli Radar (and much better one) in the new F16I becuase they will lose workers or some thing like that so they put a good but not BEST rader in the F16I im willing to bet Israel put thier new radar after the F16I came (and will come?) to israel.

[UoUo]

I don't think Israel have the money right now to replace all the radars in the F-16I

[born_to_kill]

Trust me Israel is going to pull something off that none of us can even imagine, something so risky that will work out perfect (like entebbe)

[-Max2-]

Imagine an successful air attack, how Israelis want to go back over flat Iraq and Arabia, they will get their long range AIM-54's in the back by Tomcats which are near their base and can fly with afterburner at Mach 2...

There is no chance for such a strike, expect Israelis fire 100km stand-off missiles en masse and fly with full speed back but Tomcats are there and will hunt them to death.

Tomcats are what Israel fears not even one of the Iranian S-300 sites is a greater danger.

Ah and please don’t come with Iranian Tomcats are no more in service, or the Tomcat is old and bad because it is replaced by the Super Bug in the USN.



Iranian F-14As have more than 25 years old and have suffered from the lack of spare parts since the US embargo. Only a limited number of Tomcats are still in service.

And AFAIK, the AIM-54A Phoenix is no more in use in the IRIAF (missiles have exceeded their normal service life + lack of spare parts).

[SeanAshi]

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_16.jpg
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f14/f14_14.jpg
I don't know much about the F-14, the wings in or out, purpose?

[Falco]

It changes the lift that the wings generate and how aerodynamic the aircraft is. The pilot can rotates the wings the "out" position to takeoff, land and to accomplish low speed maneuvers. Or he can rotate them in to fly faster.

[-=P=-]

Come on guys, I hear only weak arguments about Iran’s Tomcats.

One come hear and say Israeli F-15I and F-16I has Derby and Phyton-5 missiles oh and even new HUD's ! Look this all is NOTHING worth because Iran, America and Russia are the only country’s in the word which has long range missiles, your Derby with 30km optimal range is like a knife compared to a spear in front of the 120km optimal range of the AIM-54 and both are AHR missiles...

I did know that again some come with the argument that Iran has no spare parts and only a few or even none of the Iranian Tomcats fly... I say it again Iran is not Iraq, Israel had never an enemy in the class of Iran, its namely so that Iran upgraded the Tomcats avionic and provided it with a new R-73 version and has developed an improved AIM-54 (yes Iran is building an ARH BVR missile with 4 times the range of the Derby). So Iranian Tomcats are much upgraded and a few years ago it was said that Iran produce 70% of the parts needed for the Tomcat, this figure now wanted up (my source for much about the things said about the IRIAF Tomcats is an AFM issue)

Face it guys, Iranian Tomcats are flying and more dangerous than ever before and Israel has nothing in its class, how good the F-15I/AMRAAM is, Iran has the upper hand in this field.

Next point; I didn’t say a massive conventional ballistic missile program without a reason.

The Shahab-3 is not like other missiles, it was build to be cheap enough for using it in large numbers like a normal strike weapon, the other point was that it should be capable to destroy its designated target with one shot, so a relative low CEP with a strong warhead. Do you understand what this means ? I give you an example 4 years ago or so Iran attacked an terrorist base in Iraq, for the operation which lasted a few hours 60-80 different ballistic missiles like SCUD's were shot at the targets, very fast. Everyone in the region was impressed/scared, because so many missiles in such a fast time and that in peace time will mean something, its nothing like Iraq's 5-10 missiles per day against Israel...

Also don’t forget, the SCUD intercepted by Israel work in an completely different way as Iran’s Shahab-3, an intercept is something much more difficult.

Now I say it again, what when, Iran strike in the first night with 100 missiles in 3-4 hours all of them coming in salvos of 20-25 missiles at one time ? All of them coming in form of a small re-entry vehicle from the outer atmosphere with a warhead 4 times more heavy/ 30-40 times more accurate than any of the Iraqi SCUD's fired at Israel ? What if 5 missiles of this hundred manage to hit the Dimona reactor with enough fresh plutonium for Israel, Jordan and Egypt in it ? How fast Israel will replace the Arrows and Patriots and how fast Iran will be producing new missiles and taking them from stocks, when this program has No.1 priority in the defence budget ? Or, lets say, is the Arrow-2 cheaper or the Shahab-3 and how much is the Shahab-3 cheaper ? Israel must be capable to take extremely much, not be capable to winning such a conflict, to me it seems so that Iran has an advantage here...

As said Israel is knowing this, there will be no attack.

To the Hizbollah; Look, Iran don’t provided them with advanced weapons, but what they did get are 20km and 40km range artillery rockets, which will do their job, but that not what is so dangerous about the Hizbollah. Iranian Commandos trained them for some time, Iran wanted to form an advanced and good trained force, the best trained and probably equipped Arab force. They will strike Israel with rockets and wait for them to come on their land and that will be the time when good Israelis face an enemy which is also very good trained and equipped, then we will see how high the price will be in form of Israeli soldiers for the attack against Iran. Iran was trained by America and now Iran trained the Hizbollah in that way, Israeli Commandos have a similar training, that will be interesting for sure and both are quality over quantity forces, nothing like a bunch of "Special" Iraqi republican guards or Egyptians.

I'd say Israel has to fear the Hizbollah more than an attack by whole Jordan....

[OB Kenobi]

[quote="UoUo"][quote=Pille1234]I'm sure the
"We didn´t know" :roll: They would have time to shoot down them 1000 times with their fighters and/or SAM-batteries before the IAF would reach Iran. Israel has no business in Iraq, and if they would use Iraqi airspace that would be an act of war. However I doubt that the Iraqi puppet council would declare war on Israel, but the people might do.

Only Iraq? The entire middle-east would declare war on Israel.

[-Max2-]

Come on guys, I hear only weak arguments about Iran’s Tomcats.

Weak arguments ? Thats FACTS, man...


One come hear and say Israeli F-15I and F-16I has Derby and Phyton-5 missiles oh and even new HUD's ! Look this all is NOTHING worth because Iran, America and Russia are the only country’s in the word which has long range missiles, your Derby with 30km optimal range is like a knife compared to a spear in front of the 120km optimal range of the AIM-54 and both are AHR missiles...

Did you read what i wrote ? Iran NO MORE use the AIM-54A Phoenix. And dont underestimate the F-15I and F-16I. They are high-tech combat aircrafts with sophisticated ECM. And Israeli pilots have a good reputation...


I did know that again some come with the argument that Iran has no spare parts and only a few or even none of the Iranian Tomcats fly... I say it again Iran is not Iraq, Israel had never an enemy in the class of Iran, its namely so that Iran upgraded the Tomcats avionic and provided it with a new R-73 version and has developed an improved AIM-54 (yes Iran is building an ARH BVR missile with 4 times the range of the Derby). So Iranian Tomcats are much upgraded and a few years ago it was said that Iran produce 70% of the parts needed for the Tomcat, this figure now wanted up (my source for much about the things said about the IRIAF Tomcats is an AFM issue)

Those are only rumors or Iranian propaganda. There are no pics or direct proofs about a Iranian improved AIM-54 or a Tomcat upgrade. I have see recent pics of Iranian Tomcats (2003) and they were nothing new on them (except a new blue scheme similar to IRIAF MiG-29s). They had always the AWG-9 radar, old TF30 engines, obsolete weapons (AIM-7, early AIM-9s), etc. Iran is not Iraq, but it is still a third world country...


Face it guys, Iranian Tomcats are flying and more dangerous than ever before and Israel has nothing in its class, how good the F-15I/AMRAAM is, Iran has the upper hand in this field.

:roll:

[UoUo]

-=P=-


You know what? let's say you are right in everything you wrote..and Israel can't face the great army of iran.


But you seem to forget 1 thing. USA IS IN OUR SIDE.


And by the way...50 missile every day to fire at our city will be enough Reason to use our nukes.

[-=P=-]

@Max

"Did you read what i wrote ? Iran NO MORE use the AIM-54A Phoenix."

Haha and who told you that ? My source is AFM, what’s yours ? The outdated amateurs from FAS or Global Security ? Look if Iran manages to build its own version of the AIM-54 it will for sure be capable to hold existing ones in service... so simple is it.

"And dont underestimate the F-15I and F-16I. They are high-tech combat aircrafts with sophisticated ECM. And Israeli pilots have a good reputation... "

One can have NVG's, a battlefield computer and a Kevlar west but only equipped with a pistol (Derby) the chances are slim to win against a NVG equipped soldiers with an Assault rifle (AIM-54). The HUD can be as advanced as possible it doesn’t matters, as next there are ways to overcome ECM like, ECCM and HOJ modes.

" And Israeli pilots have a good reputation... "

Iranians also, it’s only not so much known.

"Those are only rumors or Iranian propaganda."

Oh yeah Iran which never lose a word about new air force missiles... There must be reasons when even AFM report such things...

" There are no pics or direct proofs about a Iranian improved AIM-54 or a Tomcat upgrade. I have see recent pics of Iranian Tomcats (2003) and they were nothing new on them (except a new blue scheme similar to IRIAF MiG-29s). They had always the AWG-9 radar, old TF30 engines, obsolete weapons (AIM-7, early AIM-9s), etc. Iran is not Iraq, but it is still a third world country... "

So you have seen this picture ? Nice 25 years old Tomcat with no spare parts, hä ? I never said Iran did replace the AWG-9 or the TF.30, I only did speak about avionic upgrades. As weapons it use both the AIM-7 and AIM-9, but also others like the AIM-54 and by now also its Iranian version and the R-73, to name some.

PS: Scary if Iran realy has the AIM-54, not ? ;)

@UoUo

"But you seem to forget 1 thing. USA IS IN OUR SIDE.


And by the way...50 missile every day to fire at our city will be enough Reason to use our nukes."

You have absolutely no rights to use Nukes against Iran, also if it shots 1000 missiles at Israel. Don’t forget these missiles deliver bombs, Iran don’t equip them with ABC warheads like Israel and others. Nor will Iran attack Israeli population with them, but attack government installations and military ones, I also doubt that Iran would attack Dimona in such a case (but it may would have the right). Now if Israel still use Nukes then Iran will first destroy Dimona, target Israeli population and give the order to Hezbollah to target Israeli population with all available force, this will be massive TERRORIST attacks by Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, and that will legitime with full right, if Israel use nukes against Iranian land and population.

In other word; Iran can massively strike Israel with missiles, Israel could also strike Iran with missiles when it would have enough conventional ones, but no side has the right to use ABC weapons, or massive terrorist attacks, if one side do, the other one has the rights to use the same method.

It would be interesting to hear the world opinion on "Israel did attack Iran and after a massive Iranian counter strike with HE missiles, it starts to use nukes..."


So you have America on your side ? So the Americans are to invade Iran because you fear the nukes and cant do anything against it ? That will be a war with completely unbelievable results for the current American population. America, other than Israel, can win if it is ready to pay the price but be sure that the wont do it with current weapon systems, first when things like the F/A-22 and the ABL are in service it's getting possible but that’s at best in 2008-10.

Face it, nobody can stop Iran if it really would like the get nukes, expect he is ready to get a very bad and very bloody time. In my opinion America and Israel are not ready to pay such a price.

[UoUo]

Are you seires? how you want to attack us in balstic missile and no strike civil targets?

You know...the shiaab..aren't tomahoahks. :backhand:

Soory...but you are feeding from propoganda..and i don't blame you....

[-Max2-]

Haha and who told you that ? My source is AFM, what’s yours ? The outdated amateurs from FAS or Global Security ? Look if Iran manages to build its own version of the AIM-54 it will for sure be capable to hold existing ones in service... so simple is it.

AFM is a good magazine but they are not perfect. They have made errors on many occasions.

And again, i want to see evidences/pics of Iranian-built AIM-54 and Iranian F-14 upgrade. Where are they ?


One can have NVG's, a battlefield computer and a Kevlar west but only equipped with a pistol (Derby) the chances are slim to win against a NVG equipped soldiers with an Assault rifle (AIM-54). The HUD can be as advanced as possible it doesn’t matters, as next there are ways to overcome ECM like, ECCM and HOJ modes.

:roll:

The AIM-54 Phoenix was developed in the 60s. Technology has evolved since and i am not sure that a Phoenix will be always so effective today than 25 years ago. Especially against a F-15I/F-16I...


Iranians also, it’s only not so much known.

As good as an Israeli, i dont think so. Israeli AF pilots are the best in the world. Its a fact.


So you have seen this picture ? Nice 25 years old Tomcat with no spare parts, hä ? I never said Iran did replace the AWG-9 or the TF.30, I only did speak about avionic upgrades. As weapons it use both the AIM-7 and AIM-9, but also others like the AIM-54 and by now also its Iranian version and the R-73, to name some.

Yeah, i wonder how many Tomcats were cannibalized to make this F-14 airworthy.... :roll:

Avionics upgrade ? With Iranian technology ? Hum... :|

For the weaponry, as i said, the AIM-7 and AIM-9P/J Sidewinder used by the IRIAF are obsolete. And for the last time, its impossible that IRIAF still use US-made AIM-54s. Those missiles have exceeded their normal service LIFE.

And again, i want to see evidences of Iranian F-14s with R-73 (doubtful) and "Iranian-made Phoenix" (even more doubtful)...

[-=P=-]

@UoUo

"Are you seires? how you want to attack us in balstic missile and no strike civil targets?

You know...the shiaab..aren't tomahoahks."

Are not, but one can target larger military installations, I'm sure Israel has one or two facilities which are larger than 100x100 and are not near civilian houses, but war is war and there will be some collateral damage, if lets say the government area of Tel Aviv is attacked.

@Max

"AFM is a good magazine but they are not perfect. They have made errors on many occasions.

And again, i want to see evidences/pics of Iranian-built AIM-54 and Iranian F-14 upgrade. Where are they ? "

Yeah they make mistakes and, that about Iran if for sure such a mistake :roll:

I would say the authors of AFM have some evidences to claim such things, Iran even has own MIM-23B's which were made compatible with the F-14 as AAM and that in the 80's, a prove for Iran’s knowledge in this field. Don’t expect to see much pictures from Iranian weapons, especially not when they are in "top secret" stage like the Iranian AIM-54, I also don’t expect to see Israeli CM's, like this "Popeye Turbo".

"The AIM-54 Phoenix was developed in the 60s. Technology has evolved since and i am not sure that a Phoenix will be always so effective today than 25 years ago. Especially against a F-15I/F-16I... "

Its a fast airframe design one that is until today very effective, even against small fighters. If we talk for example about the "jamm-proofness" of its ARH seeker, I give you the point, but don’t expect that no changes were made and no other targeting mode is available. The AWG-9 of the Tomcat is a brute force radar, extremely strong; one can overcome shortcomings with pure force to a degree.

"As good as an Israeli, i dont think so. Israeli AF pilots are the best in the world. Its a fact. "

I'm not going to say Iranians are "better" than anyone, but its really not a fact that Israelis are the best trained, they are some of the few post WWII AF's which have seen real air combat, like US-trained Iran.

"Yeah, i wonder how many Tomcats were cannibalized to make this F-14 airworthy.... "

Oh yeah cannibalizing for 25 years... I forgot that Tomcats produce like fruit tree's every year new spare part's. Come on Iran had an 8 year long war. but not only that, be honest do you really think an air frame looks so new after 25 years ? The example there is a fresh refurbished one, completely overhauled and painted.

"Avionics upgrade ? With Iranian technology ? Hum... "

Hmm... For some reasons I have the feeling that you actually know nothing about Iran’s technology, do you ? How about replacing some of its CPU systems with Pentium 4's made in Malaysia ?

" And for the last time, its impossible that IRIAF still use US-made AIM-54s. Those missiles have exceeded their normal service LIFE. "

Impossible ? Nooo...there is something called zero-hour overhaul, its a complete overhaul in which an aircraft or missile is to such a degree overhauled that its like a fresh one from factory, it cost but some country’s do it (if it’s a weapon which is it worth).

"And again, i want to see evidences of Iranian F-14s with R-73 (doubtful) and "Iranian-made Phoenix" (even more doubtful)..."

Ask AFM, maybe they can provide you with some secret photos showing armed Iranian fighters during service( for taking those one will go straight to the jail in Iran).

[AirZone]

Hmmm... thanks max lol no need IDFM203 while we have you in here :lol:


Anyway about Iran aircrafts and IAF.... lets start with this Israel have a VERY modern missile industry and we are leading in everything that is AA missiles (and now AG missiles with the popeye and such) now you know about the old derby with 30km but lets say (i cant tell much) that israel have new versions... and ranges that you never dreamed about (not to montion about special ATGMS with crazy range) the derby and other missiles we use gets better and better each time... and about the radar, even the "usual" radar thats in the lets say F16I (i think the F15I got the Alta one ?) because of the demand that USA made (they didnt want to lose workers becuase of the better israeli radar...and i read its one of the best atm in the market..or mabye like the new F16 for the emirates or mabye they are diff so each have special option...anywayy the "usual" radar are much better than any Iran avionics they have, face it the F14 tomcat is an old plane and only some countries in europe (like swedish Saab???) israel and usa have the ability to build such high tech avionics....anyway lets just keep that to that i know some info that im not think i should talk about but lets say the Phoenix is nothing compared to the new IAF missiles with much better technology range and warhead... and it doesnt matter who's a better pilot this days its all about who pulls the trigger faster lol but even in close range there are few in the world that can win the Pyhton 5+JHMCS combo (whats ever is the name of the new helmet) with Israeli pilots in it :) so thats case one closed

now about Hizbulla
yeah they are good....becuase they are using guerrilla tactics and well its not really hard to ambush you know o_O but in terms of quailty and training with syrian commandos....WOW... not and i will tell you why because syrian commando is like a regular infantry brigade in the IDF (golani, givati, nahal, paratroopers...) and IDF SF are highly trained so i doubt if they have a unit in the Hizbullah that comes close to IDF training and equiment (mabye they have one tiny unit).
and even today with IDF tiny budget they still get newer stuff and better training (becuase IDF is so active we change our combat doctrine all the time) and dont forget Egoz (A nut in hebrew) are special anti guerrilla unit and they have a very advanced sniper training and camoflage training (i read some intersting stuff about the ex-spatzantz sniper that came into israel and changed all the doctrine about sniping and camo) and they did some crazy **** in lebanon (if i could only translate some papergraphs) like VERY deep penetration (not to montion other SF units and of course the Matkal units like S13, Shaldag, Maglan, Sayeret Matkal each..)

Hizbulla succeeds so much because they just ambush and wait for our soldiers (IDF ambushed too but its harder) so they wont be ready for a second and then they could strike but in a full scale war i doubfully they could stop a brigade with some tanks, artillery, apaches and F15/F16 bombing them like there is no tomorrow... well they have rockets indeed but i bet our intel knows where it is and how to stop it... and dont forget about the new Laser system that would help us greatly and some rockets wont harm Israel so much it will only annoy the northen citys (we have shelters anyway) and i always read how the Hizbulla succeed when ambushing but when it was a "clean" skrimish without ambush (when a force saw another and they start to shot each other) i always read about IDF with the upperhand...


Now about Iran ballistic missiles.... Shiaab3, right its a dangerous weapon and the arrow was designed to take that **** out... now if you want to talk about amount of Israeli missiles... i dont want to say but lets say Jerhico2/1 Missiles.. we have enough of those (and not to montion popeye turbo)

I dare to say that even in full scale war we have such advanced bombs and missiles like USA got that we can use it against iran armor and soldiers in a big area and do some massive damage... (hehehe to bad i cant talk about this but lets say the armor wont know what will hit him) so in the end in open area mabye it comes into quality and not quantity this days...

hmmm so yeah... THE JEWS WILL RULE THE WORLD MUAUAUAUUAUA rofl

[IDFM203]

Hmmm... thanks max lol no need IDFM203 while we have you in here :lol:
hehe :lol: and yes indeed max is doing a great job....kudos to him :D

Hey I am glad, I mean I cant be the only one doing a good job around here ;)

Its about time some others took up the slack ;)


Iran has massively invested in a Conventional ballistic missile system, much money is going to this program and the main fruit is the Shahab-3.


And Israel has massively invested in a misslie defence system. :)



The Hizbollah will also get its order and do some job’s...


As I said before, Hizbullah, being a terrorist organization, is just a mildly annoying fly. A confrontaion with Iran will probably not engage the ground forces too much, and they will have plenty of opportunity to deal with anything Hizbullah throws at them (which isn't much)


There is one thing you are right about: such an attack will not happen because it would not be practical. Iranian nuclear program is virtual devoid of "panacea targets", and destroying just one reactor will not stop it.Good post and indeed I agree with you, for yes you have to assume that Iran learnt from what happened to Iraq in 81' and I am sure indeed they have it spread out.

Though understand that like in 81’ it was a Mossad operation as well (a lot of people forget it wasn’t only a air force success) so I am sure that Mossad is onto where the locations are ;) , but yes I agree this time around is a lot more complicated.




Ah could Iran not even attack Dimona, like you attack my reactor and we yours ?

I am not sure if you mentioned this before, but just curious are you Iranian?


To what you said in general, IF (and indeed I acknowledge it is a big if) we attacked Iranian nuclear sites, then I am not sure there will be a all out war, for I am not sure Iran would want to suffer what it would simply because it lost a few sites, however if you (Iran) insists on perusing that route, well then indeed I admit it won’t be nice for us for indeed you have missiles that can cause some damage to us, but that is basically it and even then, those missiles will meet our Arrow and our laser defense systems etc…., ;) your military is simply no match whatsoever for ours and that is in any field you choose to debate this in and as such I can guarantee you it will be a lot worse for you (understatement of the century p-) ).

(its absurd for me to even get into a debate about your old antiquated air force vs. our very modern and best trained one :roll: )

As for hetsballh, please, that was a political defeat much more then any military one. I mean Militarily Israel was winning, hell Israel was losing only around 20 soldiers a year (must less then what hetballh was losing), BUT it was the left Barak gov. which decided that it just wasn’t worth it, now ok, however if they were to launch their rockets, I can guarantee you that the old equation would be thrown out and it will be "worth it" again ;) , and secondly we wont make the same mistakes as before and sit around is nice stationary positions, but rather we will go on the offensive, not to mention that we in the IDF have learnt our mistakes and have adapted and improved so next time we are in, I can guarantee you it won’t be the same ;)

Anyways the last thing we want is war.

What you must understand is that we have no desires to destroy Iran or harm its people and no Israeli leader nor do MOST Israelis ever said they want to destroy Iran, which is contrary to what a lot of Iranians as well as a lot in the Iranian government want to do to us……..all we want is to destroy the weapons (nukes) that can destroy us and in the hands of your (I think its your) Islamic fundamentalist government, it IMO constitutes a offensive threat.
(and yes I heard your points before on how those in real power haven’t said they want to destroy Israel so I guess you imply they don’t want to? :roll: ………….I guess on this we will simply agree to disagree).

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

Hmmm... thanks max lol no need IDFM203 while we have you in here :lol:
hehe :lol: and yes indeed max is doing a great job....kudos to him :D

Hey I am glad, I mean I cant be the only one doing a good job around here ;)

Its about time some others took up the slack ;)


Iran has massively invested in a Conventional ballistic missile system, much money is going to this program and the main fruit is the Shahab-3.


And Israel has massively invested in a misslie defence system. :)



The Hizbollah will also get its order and do some job’s...


As I said before, Hizbullah, being a terrorist organization, is just a mildly annoying fly. A confrontaion with Iran will probably not engage the ground forces too much, and they will have plenty of opportunity to deal with anything Hizbullah throws at them (which isn't much)


There is one thing you are right about: such an attack will not happen because it would not be practical. Iranian nuclear program is virtual devoid of "panacea targets", and destroying just one reactor will not stop it.Good post and indeed I agree with you, for yes you have to assume that Iran learnt from what happened to Iraq in 81' and I am sure indeed they have it spread out.

Though understand that like in 81’ it was a Mossad operation as well (a lot of people forget it wasn’t only a air force success) so I am sure that Mossad is onto where the locations are ;) , but yes I agree this time around is a lot more complicated.




Ah could Iran not even attack Dimona, like you attack my reactor and we yours ?

I am not sure if you mentioned this before, but just curious are you Iranian?


To what you said in general, IF (and indeed I acknowledge it is a big if) we attacked Iranian nuclear sites, then I am not sure there will be a all out war, for I am not sure Iran would want to suffer what it would simply because it lost a few sites, however if you (Iran) insists on perusing that route, well then indeed I admit it won’t be nice for us for indeed you have missiles that can cause some damage to us, but that is basically it and even then, those missiles will meet our Arrow and our laser defense systems etc…., ;) your military is simply no match whatsoever for ours and that is in any field you choose to debate this in and as such I can guarantee you it will be a lot worse for you (understatement of the century p-) ).

(its absurd for me to even get into a debate about your old antiquated air force vs. our very modern and best trained one :roll: )

As for hetsballh, please, that was a political defeat much more then any military one. I mean Militarily Israel was winning, hell Israel was losing only around 20 soldiers a year (must less then what hetballh was losing), BUT it was the left Barak gov. which decided that it just wasn’t worth it, now ok, however if they were to launch their rockets, I can guarantee you that the old equation would be thrown out and it will be "worth it" again ;) , and secondly we wont make the same mistakes as before and sit around is nice stationary positions, but rather we will go on the offensive, not to mention that we in the IDF have learnt our mistakes and have adapted and improved so next time we are in, I can guarantee you it won’t be the same ;)

Anyways the last thing we want is war.

What you must understand is that we have no desires to destroy Iran or harm its people and no Israeli leader nor do MOST Israelis ever said they want to destroy Iran, which is contrary to what a lot of Iranians as well as a lot in the Iranian government want do to us……..all we want is to destroy the weapons (nukes) that can destroy us and in the hands of your (I think its your) Islamic fundamentalist government, it IMO constitutes a offensive threat.
(and yes I heard your points before on how those in real power haven’t said they want to destroy Israel so I guess you imply they don’t want to? :roll: ………….I guess on this we will simply agree to disagree).

Shalom :D

God i wish i had your english... i think we should have a special hebrew translator that translate hebrew into english :lol:

good post nonetheless

[IDFM203]

What do you mean we should have one?? :roll: ;) I already have been using that special translator for a while now;) :lol: ..hell man I don’t know a word of English, and boy does that come in handy ;) :D

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

What do you mean we should have one?? :roll: ;) I already have been using that special translator for a while now;) :lol: ..hell man I don’t know a word of English, and boy does that come in handy ;) :D

Shalom :D

Ohhhhhhh shut up :lol: :P

[-=P=-]

@AirZone

Look, this is not an Iranian avionic industry vs. Israeli one, nor will I take part in such a discussion.

Israel has direct access to America and has so access to the most advanced technology in the world, no question that America is the number 1. But it doesn’t change the fact that Iranian Tomcats have got an avionic upgrade and that with the Tomcat, the Americans had build their most complex operational fighter, ever, don’t underestimate 60's and 70's tech if its about a fighter which should protect US CVBG against all possible threat, they wanted to get the best possible, like now with the F/A-22.

As next to be honest the Derby has an operational range of 20km, technology is technology, but there are physical limits for a solid-fuel missile in its size and Israelis cant magic. I also have no doubts that Israel is developing a longer range version of the Derby, that’s logical, but of what a size is it ? You know the AIM-54 has an optimal range of about 250km, how big will it be and what Israeli aircraft will carry it, because also a ram-jet AAM with 250km range must be a big one. ATGM’s are no AAM’s and I know about the Israeli developments here.

"now about Hizbulla
yeah they are good....becuase they are using guerrilla tactics and well its not really hard to ambush you know o_O but in terms of quailty and training with syrian commandos....WOW... not and i will tell you why because syrian commando is like a regular infantry brigade in the IDF (golani, givati, nahal, paratroopers...) "

Yes, but to be honest I don’t think any Syrian SF can compare with elite Hizbollah SF's. Hizbollah has also services which can be counted as real SF troops, not only guerrilla's. I know how good Israeli SF's are but, Hizbollah did get training from the elite Iranian Army Green Barrets (but not much most were done by IRGC SF's).

"always read how the Hizbulla succeed when ambushing but when it was a "clean" skrimish without ambush (when a force saw another and they start to shot each other) i always read about IDF with the upperhand... "

We will see, sure Israel has more combat support, but Hizbollah has not shown its full force, I only want to say they are not like other Arabs, they got training and equipment. An 1:1 kill exchange could be possible

"Now about Iran ballistic missiles.... Shiaab3, right its a dangerous weapon and the arrow was designed to take that **** out... now if you want to talk about amount of Israeli missiles... i dont want to say but lets say Jerhico2/1 Missiles.. we have enough of those (and not to montion popeye turbo) "

Arrow was designed to take out SCUD-B's and C's, so was Arrow-2 and SCUD decoys were used for testing with an real SCUD test coming up in this year. That’s not much, the Shahab-3 has a completely other attack profile, more like ICBM's, the Arrow must prove that it is useful against it, because it was not even tested against a missile of that class.

Israel don’t has that much Jericho’s, these are for the nukes and from the design much too expensive for a conventional missile system, 200 examples at best. The Popeye Turbo is still secret but, sub delivered they will have only a very limited massive attack capability.

"I dare to say that even in full scale war we have such advanced bombs and missiles like USA got that we can use it against iran armor and soldiers in a big area and do some massive damage... (hehehe to bad i cant talk about this but lets say the armor wont know what will hit him) so in the end in open area mabye it comes into quality and not quantity this days... "

The problem with Iran is, that you must find the target first, Iran is a big mountain ;) then when you find the target you must do the job fast and go, because Iranian forces are also very fast and airborne.

@IDFM203

"Though understand that like in 81’ it was a Mossad operation as well (a lot of people forget it wasn’t only a air force success) so I am sure that Mossad is onto where the locations are , but yes I agree this time around is a lot more complicated. "

Destroying Osirak was actually a joint, Iranian-Israeli operation, read the April issue of Air Enthusiast, some very surprising things for the average Israeli and you will learn some things about Iranian capabylties. Actually Iran would must thank, you without deals with Israelis which gave Iran access to technologies, many new Iranian weapon systems would not being and Iran may would turn to the Russians and Chinese for all technologies, but also because Israel Iran could hold its “western” military for 25 years.

"To what you said in general, IF (and indeed I acknowledge it is a big if) we attacked Iranian nuclear sites, then I am not sure there will be a all out war, for I am not sure Iran would want to suffer what it would simply because it lost a few sites, however if you (Iran) insists on perusing that route, well then indeed I admit it won’t be nice for us for indeed you have missiles that can cause some damage to us, but that is basically it and even then, those missiles will meet our Arrow and our laser defense systems etc….,"

It is Iran’s decision if there will be an all-out war and, because its not a direct war, but one with missiles and such things, Iran will do it, simply be sure that you will get everything in Iranian stocks that can reach you ;) , how effective the Arrow is only combat can show, fact is that it was jet not even tested against an old real SCUD, but I did talk about the Shahab-3 and why Iran has the advantage here, in my last posts, read it.

"your military is simply no match whatsoever for ours and that is in any field you choose to debate this in and as such I can guarantee you it will be a lot worse for you (understatement of the century"

I for my part don’t underestimate Israel, but you underestimate Iran and that’s an undeniable fact, the same is for you, only try to attack Iran then we will see how realistic your combat experience with your Arabs was.

You are no Israeli spokemans and I'm sure the Mossad knows that one cant.... with Iran directly ;)

"(its absurd for me to even get into a debate about your old antiquated air force vs. our very modern and best trained one )"

Old and antiquated... yes but hey, your knowledge did stop in the 70's on Iran, you have no serious clue about the actual condition but still underestimate, not very wise ;)

"What you must understand is that we have no desires to destroy Iran or harm its people and no Israeli leader nor do MOST Israelis ever said they want to destroy Iran, which is contrary to what a lot of Iranians as well as a lot in the Iranian government want do to us…….."

Iran will not attack Israel, Iran has not and will not attack anybody else, but its so that Iran is one of they country’s which think that Israel had no right to be created and must disappear again, at least in its current form, but its not Iran’s problem. Actually there is a special strategic balance between Iranians, Israelis and Arabs, each one has special interests with the other side, but I'm not going to talk about this, especially not with my Israeli friends here p-) .

"……..all we want is to destroy the weapons (nukes) that can destroy us and in the hands of your (I think its your) Islamic fundamentalist government, it IMO constitutes a offensive threat.
(and yes I heard your points before on how those in real power haven’t said they want to destroy Israel so I guess you imply they don’t want to? ………….I guess on this we will simply agree to disagree). "

I don’t see any trace that Iran is in a hunt for Nukes and I don’t see that when Iran would get some (which is against its religion and that in a state based on religion), there will be no attack on anybody, but Iran would get Pakistan under control (not that they would be a strong enemy anyway), Israel and the Arabs, America and the Russians.

“I am not sure if you mentioned this before, but just curious are you Iranian?”

Lets say it so, I’m interested in Iran and Israel both interesting military’s.

[UoUo]

Anyone have a number of hizbullah losses in the fighting with Israel?

[AirZone]

@AirZone

Look, this is not an Iranian avionic industry vs. Israeli one, nor will I take part in such a discussion.

Israel has direct access to America and has so access to the most advanced technology in the world, no question that America is the number 1. But it doesn’t change the fact that Iranian Tomcats have got an avionic upgrade and that with the Tomcat, the Americans had build their most complex operational fighter, ever, don’t underestimate 60's and 70's tech if its about a fighter which should protect US CVBG against all possible threat, they wanted to get the best possible, like now with the F/A-22.

As next to be honest the Derby has an operational range of 20km, technology is technology, but there are physical limits for a solid-fuel missile in its size and Israelis cant magic. I also have no doubts that Israel is developing a longer range version of the Derby, that’s logical, but of what a size is it ? You know the AIM-54 has an optimal range of about 250km, how big will it be and what Israeli aircraft will carry it, because also a ram-jet AAM with 250km range must be a big one. ATGM’s are no AAM’s and I know about the Israeli developments here.

"now about Hizbulla
yeah they are good....becuase they are using guerrilla tactics and well its not really hard to ambush you know o_O but in terms of quailty and training with syrian commandos....WOW... not and i will tell you why because syrian commando is like a regular infantry brigade in the IDF (golani, givati, nahal, paratroopers...) "

Yes, but to be honest I don’t think any Syrian SF can compare with elite Hizbollah SF's. Hizbollah has also services which can be counted as real SF troops, not only guerrilla's. I know how good Israeli SF's are but, Hizbollah did get training from the elite Iranian Army Green Barrets (but not much most were done by IRGC SF's).

"always read how the Hizbulla succeed when ambushing but when it was a "clean" skrimish without ambush (when a force saw another and they start to shot each other) i always read about IDF with the upperhand... "

We will see, sure Israel has more combat support, but Hizbollah has not shown its full force, I only want to say they are not like other Arabs, they got training and equipment. An 1:1 kill exchange could be possible

"Now about Iran ballistic missiles.... Shiaab3, right its a dangerous weapon and the arrow was designed to take that **** out... now if you want to talk about amount of Israeli missiles... i dont want to say but lets say Jerhico2/1 Missiles.. we have enough of those (and not to montion popeye turbo) "

Arrow was designed to take out SCUD-B's and C's, so was Arrow-2 and SCUD decoys were used for testing with an real SCUD test coming up in this year. That’s not much, the Shahab-3 has a completely other attack profile, more like ICBM's, the Arrow must prove that it is useful against it, because it was not even tested against a missile of that class.

Israel don’t has that much Jericho’s, these are for the nukes and from the design much too expensive for a conventional missile system, 200 examples at best. The Popeye Turbo is still secret but, sub delivered they will have only a very limited massive attack capability.

"I dare to say that even in full scale war we have such advanced bombs and missiles like USA got that we can use it against iran armor and soldiers in a big area and do some massive damage... (hehehe to bad i cant talk about this but lets say the armor wont know what will hit him) so in the end in open area mabye it comes into quality and not quantity this days... "

The problem with Iran is, that you must find the target first, Iran is a big mountain ;) then when you find the target you must do the job fast and go, because Iranian forces are also very fast and airborne.

@IDFM203

"Though understand that like in 81’ it was a Mossad operation as well (a lot of people forget it wasn’t only a air force success) so I am sure that Mossad is onto where the locations are , but yes I agree this time around is a lot more complicated. "

Destroying Osirak was actually a joint, Iranian-Israeli operation, read the April issue of Air Enthusiast, some very surprising things for the average Israeli and you will learn some things about Iranian capabylties. Actually Iran would must thank, you without deals with Israelis which gave Iran access to technologies, many new Iranian weapon systems would not being and Iran may would turn to the Russians and Chinese for all technologies, but also because Israel Iran could hold its “western” military for 25 years.

"To what you said in general, IF (and indeed I acknowledge it is a big if) we attacked Iranian nuclear sites, then I am not sure there will be a all out war, for I am not sure Iran would want to suffer what it would simply because it lost a few sites, however if you (Iran) insists on perusing that route, well then indeed I admit it won’t be nice for us for indeed you have missiles that can cause some damage to us, but that is basically it and even then, those missiles will meet our Arrow and our laser defense systems etc….,"

It is Iran’s decision if there will be an all-out war and, because its not a direct war, but one with missiles and such things, Iran will do it, simply be sure that you will get everything in Iranian stocks that can reach you ;) , how effective the Arrow is only combat can show, fact is that it was jet not even tested against an old real SCUD, but I did talk about the Shahab-3 and why Iran has the advantage here, in my last posts, read it.

"your military is simply no match whatsoever for ours and that is in any field you choose to debate this in and as such I can guarantee you it will be a lot worse for you (understatement of the century"

I for my part don’t underestimate Israel, but you underestimate Iran and that’s an undeniable fact, the same is for you, only try to attack Iran then we will see how realistic your combat experience with your Arabs was.

You are no Israeli spokemans and I'm sure the Mossad knows that one cant.... with Iran directly ;)

"(its absurd for me to even get into a debate about your old antiquated air force vs. our very modern and best trained one )"

Old and antiquated... yes but hey, your knowledge did stop in the 70's on Iran, you have no serious clue about the actual condition but still underestimate, not very wise ;)

"What you must understand is that we have no desires to destroy Iran or harm its people and no Israeli leader nor do MOST Israelis ever said they want to destroy Iran, which is contrary to what a lot of Iranians as well as a lot in the Iranian government want do to us…….."

Iran will not attack Israel, Iran has not and will not attack anybody else, but its so that Iran is one of they country’s which think that Israel had no right to be created and must disappear again, at least in its current form, but its not Iran’s problem. Actually there is a special strategic balance between Iranians, Israelis and Arabs, each one has special interests with the other side, but I'm not going to talk about this, especially not with my Israeli friends here p-) .

"……..all we want is to destroy the weapons (nukes) that can destroy us and in the hands of your (I think its your) Islamic fundamentalist government, it IMO constitutes a offensive threat.
(and yes I heard your points before on how those in real power haven’t said they want to destroy Israel so I guess you imply they don’t want to? ………….I guess on this we will simply agree to disagree). "

I don’t see any trace that Iran is in a hunt for Nukes and I don’t see that when Iran would get some (which is against its religion and that in a state based on religion), there will be no attack on anybody, but Iran would get Pakistan under control (not that they would be a strong enemy anyway), Israel and the Arabs, America and the Russians.

“I am not sure if you mentioned this before, but just curious are you Iranian?”

Lets say it so, I’m interested in Iran and Israel both interesting military’s.

Hehehe... i like you, you sound like a man with good sense.

About Iran look... Israel dont want the history to repet itself (unlike some people in europe we have some common sense) so we dont take any chances and not to montion im not feeling secure when a Islamic fundamentalist government will have the ability to make nukes and i think you agree with me becuase im allmost sure they will make it.

And theJerhico missile is enough to take out half of Iran (and im talking about our mini nukes hehehe) but after all we have the advantage with second strike (our subs) and mabye the best air defence in the world (and it's just getting better).

Btw i never underestimate Iran army but today its not about quantity but on quality....we saw in Iraq what couple of bombs can do to a whole army and 5-6 tanks that just cut thru bagdad like a knife in a hot butter...
and Israel is mainly quailty over quantity and one of the best trained armys in the world with mabye the best combat doctrine in the world and we have some very nasty suprises (I prefer not to talk it over the net but lets say we have some very nasty stuff that can take a whole brigade of tanks in a couple of mins and im not talking about any nuke or some thing like that) thats why i think Israel even if we are tiny we have the upperhand in every terms... mabye in full scale war our soldiers will have problems with so many suicide soldiers but again better training...better tactics...and better equipment can changes the tide of battle =]

and about Iran SF... with all due respect i think even the hizbulla elite unit are better than the Iran's sf because after all the hizbulla had to eat **** against IDF soldiers while the quailty of the Iraqi soldiers in Iraqi-Iran war is controversial. So they had to change thier ways and found a better ways against us (while we improved us...and today we can still see more hizbulla that dies than IDF soldiers) but nonetheless i'm sorry to say that idf fights against the best guerrilla force in the world... or mabye one of the best. But they are only annoying us...its not like they danger our existence and if they will im sure we will hit them hard...IDF tries to keep the northern border quiet but enough is enough oO

Now, about the shiaab like i said the air defeance is getting better and better and improve so fast that while iran will have shiaab5 we will have Laser+Arrows all around israel so im pretty confident about iran ballistic ability (USA are in deep ****... they are such a big country while we are tiny...everything has advantages and disadvantages ;))

About the F14, how much aircrafts of those iran have ? yes, not enough for a full scale war or a skrimish. and we kinda have a fleet of F15/F16I and not to montion the new F16I (102 no?)
in here its also better quailty (again i cant talk about it sorry but lets say israel have better avionics and missiles even than USA in some parts...and remember some parts in the F22 are israeli avionics) so rest assurd that Israel have the ability to shot F14 before they see our F16I or F15I (with the israeli radar that is much much much stronger... again i cant tell you but im sure you can find info about it) and if im not wrong the Foxbat two seater got the strongest radar in the world.. no ?

and even today the "old" F16 and F15 are better than the tomcats...again Israeli avionics...in here its not the same quailty (wich means quantity and luck will turn the tide).. israel have the upperhand with both quailty and quantity (in allmost every terms and same with the phoenix i recommand you should research a little but its hard because the info i know about our top secret missiles are not in english ;)) and today Israel have such advanced stealth in some ways so who knows mabye it will hard for the phoenix to track such a plane.. but all the respect for iran for managing to still have thier F14 active and dont forget that Israel kinda ate the USA F14 pilots for brakefast in our wargames (its still disputable rofl but we all know the truth ;) the zionists pigs rule the world =P)

[IDFM203]

Israel has direct access to America and has so access to the most advanced technology in the world, To add, besides a lot of Israeli invented missiles and lots of other things that are the most technologically advanced, I would say that nothing beats American products with Israeli add-ons and improvements to it ;)

That is a number one combination!!!!! :D


Destroying Osirak was actually a joint, Iranian-Israeli operation, read the April issue of Air Enthusiast, do you have a link to that, or if not can you copy or scan the article you have for I would be interested to read on this.


you without deals with Israelis which gave Iran access to technologies, many new Iranian weapon systems would not being and Iran may would turn to the Russians and Chinese for all technologies, but also because Israel Iran could hold its “western” military for 25 years. what Israel gave was only in certain areas and that was at most 80’s technology!!

Man Israel is now years and years much more advanced then that, though I am not sure iran is and even if it’s a bit past 80’s technology, I know it doesn’t come close to the advance stage of where Israel is at in ALL military fields and aspects.


It is Iran’s decision if there will be an all-out war and, because its not a direct war, but one with missiles and such things, Iran will do it, simply be sure that you will get everything in Iranian stocks that can reach you ;) , how effective the Arrow is only combat can show, fact is that it was jet not even tested against an old real SCUD, but I did talk about the Shahab-3 and why Iran has the advantage here, in my last posts, read it. and like I said to you before, I do recognize the Shahab-3 threat and I do acknowledge it, I simply don’t think it can cause the amount of damage as you say, even if (and it’s a big if on your part to risk) our arrow and other defense systems don’t work.

Btw how many Shahab-3’s do you have?


I for my part don’t underestimate Israel, but you underestimate Iran and that’s an undeniable fact, the same is for you, only try to attack Iran then we will see how realistic your combat experience with your Arabs was. that’s your whole answer….yeah I heard it all before rofl ;)

Ok listen what you have to understand is that in no way do I underestimate a war with Iran and indeed I don’t want it to happen for I do recognize we will lose lives, because I do recognize your missile threats, but other then that, in a conventional military vs. military war, I don’t think I am underestimating by saying you are no match for us, not even close.


You are no Israeli spokemansYes thank you ;) ….finally!!…indeed I have been trying to tell people here for a while that I am not any official spokesman or anything like that.

I am glad finally one recognizes that publicly ;)


Old and antiquated... yes but hey, your knowledge did stop in the 70's on Iran, you have no serious clue about the actual condition ahh 70’s?? go read what I wrote, I acknowledge an advancement to 80’s technology ;)

Anyways seriously. The Mossad and other intelligence agencies know full well what you have and as far as I can tell on your militarily and your armed forces, we aren’t that worried about it in a conventional sense, but its the missiles (and the nukes) is what we are worried about


Iran will not attack Israel, well after years of Islamic fundamentalists in Iran saying that a goal is to destroy Israel and your government being made up partly of Islamic fundamentalists, well IMO that constitutes an offensive threat once you have the full ability to do so (which nukes gives you that)


Iran has not and will not attack anybody else, Iran attacks Israel all the time through its proxies that it helps fund and train, even though Israel has never attacked Iran!!


but its so that Iran is one of they country’s which think that Israel had no right to be created and must disappear again, at least in its current form, but its not Iran’s problem. exactly, and that is a threat to us, though I disagree with your last five words, for Iran attacks Israel without Israel ever attacking it, made it its problem and till now has fought Israel through their proxies as I explained before.

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

Israel has direct access to America and has so access to the most advanced technology in the world, To add, besides a lot of Israeli invented missiles and lots of other things that are the most technologically advanced, I would say that nothing beats American products with Israeli add-ons and improvements to it ;)

That is a number one combination!!!!! :D


Destroying Osirak was actually a joint, Iranian-Israeli operation, read the April issue of Air Enthusiast, do you have a link to that, or if not can you copy or scan the article you have for I would be interested to read on this.


you without deals with Israelis which gave Iran access to technologies, many new Iranian weapon systems would not being and Iran may would turn to the Russians and Chinese for all technologies, but also because Israel Iran could hold its “western” military for 25 years. what Israel gave was only in certain areas and that was at most 80’s technology!!

Man Israel is now years and years much more advanced then that, though I am not sure iran is and even if it’s a bit past 80’s technology, I know it doesn’t come close to the advance stage of where Israel is at in ALL military fields and aspects.


It is Iran’s decision if there will be an all-out war and, because its not a direct war, but one with missiles and such things, Iran will do it, simply be sure that you will get everything in Iranian stocks that can reach you ;) , how effective the Arrow is only combat can show, fact is that it was jet not even tested against an old real SCUD, but I did talk about the Shahab-3 and why Iran has the advantage here, in my last posts, read it. and like I said to you before, I do recognize the Shahab-3 threat and I do acknowledge it, I simply don’t think it can cause the amount of damage as you say, even if (and it’s a big if on your part to risk) our arrow and other defense systems don’t work.

Btw how many Shahab-3’s do you have?


I for my part don’t underestimate Israel, but you underestimate Iran and that’s an undeniable fact, the same is for you, only try to attack Iran then we will see how realistic your combat experience with your Arabs was. that’s your whole answer….yeah I heard it all before rofl ;)

Ok listen what you have to understand is that in no way do I underestimate a war with Iran and indeed I don’t want it to happen for I do recognize we will lose lives, because I do recognize your missile threats, but other then that, in a conventional military vs. military war, I don’t think I am underestimating by saying you are no match for us, not even close.


You are no Israeli spokemansYes thank you ;) ….finally!!…indeed I have been trying to tell people here for a while that I am not any official spokesman or anything like that.

I am glad finally one recognizes that publicly ;)


Old and antiquated... yes but hey, your knowledge did stop in the 70's on Iran, you have no serious clue about the actual condition ahh 70’s?? go read what I wrote, I acknowledge an advancement to 80’s technology ;)

Anyways seriously. The Mossad and other intelligence agencies know full well what you have and as far as I can tell on your militarily and your armed forces, we aren’t that worried about it in a conventional sense, but its the missiles (and the nukes) is what we are worried about


Iran will not attack Israel, well after years of Islamic fundamentalists in Iran saying that a goal is to destroy Israel and your government being made up partly of Islamic fundamentalists, well IMO that constitutes an offensive threat once you have the full ability to do so (which nukes gives you that)


Iran has not and will not attack anybody else, Iran attacks Israel all the time through its proxies that it helps fund and train, even though Israel has never attacked Iran!!


but its so that Iran is one of they country’s which think that Israel had no right to be created and must disappear again, at least in its current form, but its not Iran’s problem. exactly, and that is a threat to us, though I disagree with your last five words, for Iran attacks Israel without Israel ever attacking it, made it its problem and till now has fought Israel through their proxies as I explained before.

Shalom :D

Mauauauua ! i were first... P answer me ! answer me ! i posted faster ;)

j/k good post as always (dont worry some day i will be a better spokesman than you!)

יאללה נתן לו בראש woot

[-Max2-]

Hmmm... thanks max lol no need IDFM203 while we have you in here
hehe and yes indeed max is doing a great job....kudos to him

Hey I am glad, I mean I cant be the only one doing a good job around here

Its about time some others took up the slack

Thanks... :D




I would say the authors of AFM have some evidences to claim such things, Iran even has own MIM-23B's which were made compatible with the F-14 as AAM and that in the 80's, a prove for Iran’s knowledge in this field. Don’t expect to see much pictures from Iranian weapons, especially not when they are in "top secret" stage like the Iranian AIM-54, I also don’t expect to see Israeli CM's, like this "Popeye Turbo".

If i remember correctly, the Iranian MIM-23 Hawk AAM for the F-14 was not a success. This missile was very ineffective... :|

So, i am bit sceptical about an Iranian AIM-54...


Its a fast airframe design one that is until today very effective, even against small fighters. If we talk for example about the "jamm-proofness" of its ARH seeker, I give you the point, but don’t expect that no changes were made and no other targeting mode is available. The AWG-9 of the Tomcat is a brute force radar, extremely strong; one can overcome shortcomings with pure force to a degree.

Maybe. But most of the kills scored by Iranian AIM-54s during the Iran-Iraq war were "easy targets" like MiG-21/23s. It would be interesting to see how an AIM-54 perform against a modern fighter today...


I'm not going to say Iranians are "better" than anyone, but its really not a fact that Israelis are the best trained, they are some of the few post WWII AF's which have seen real air combat, like US-trained Iran.

I agree. I have respect for Iranian F-14 pilots. I have read that Iranian F-14s shooted down 130 (!) Iraqi aircrafts during the Iran-Iraq war for only one damaged Tomcat (who flown through the debris of one of his victim). Its very impressive.

But on the other hand, dont forget that Israel is not Iraq... ;)


Oh yeah cannibalizing for 25 years... I forgot that Tomcats produce like fruit tree's every year new spare part's. Come on Iran had an 8 year long war. but not only that, be honest do you really think an air frame looks so new after 25 years ? The example there is a fresh refurbished one, completely overhauled and painted.

Well, you cant deny that an only a limited number of Tomcats are still in service on the 79 F-14s that Iran received (the 80th and last Iranian F-14 was never delivered). According to my sources, only 1/3 of the fleet are still in service. And i am pretty sure that the surviving aircrafts should have serviceability problems, even if Iran managed to keep some of them airworthy. Its seems doubtful that all Iranian F-14s can fly at the same time...


Hmm... For some reasons I have the feeling that you actually know nothing about Iran’s technology, do you ? How about replacing some of its CPU systems with Pentium 4's made in Malaysia ?

I know that Iran copy a lot of foreign equipment (AH-1 Cobra, AB-205, M60 tank, H&K MP5, Stinger, etc), but i have never see a modern 100% Iranian-developped military equipment... :|


Impossible ? Nooo...there is something called zero-hour overhaul, its a complete overhaul in which an aircraft or missile is to such a degree overhauled that its like a fresh one from factory, it cost but some country’s do it (if it’s a weapon which is it worth).

Without US assistance ?

[-=P=-]

@AirZone

I also don’t want to talk about if Israel has the right to exist or if the thread of a Iranian nuke is too high. My standpoint is that, Iran at the moment has no nuclear weapon program and so scary the "Mullahs" appear, they will not attack anybody so its clear that an Iranian nuke will only be a disaster for the Israeli might in the region, not for an Israeli man.

"And theJerhico missile is enough to take out half of Iran (and im talking about our mini nukes hehehe) but after all we have the advantage with second strike (our subs) and mabye the best air defence in the world (and it's just getting better). "

Nukes are Israel’s Ace, if Israel starts to using them, there will be no rule anymore and if Israel is a country which is going to use Nukes against a country which attacks it "fair" conventional, the world has a big problem and Iran must develop nukes and B/C weapons for self-defence p-)

Iran has its second strike capability in form of a mountainous country about 4 times larger than Iraq with mobile missile launchers.

"and about Iran SF... with all due respect i think even the hizbulla elite unit are better than the Iran's sf because after all the hizbulla had to eat **** against IDF soldiers while the quailty of the Iraqi soldiers in Iraqi-Iran war is controversial. "

Controversial or not, the results are what count and Iranian elite Green Barrettes are hand picked, trained in all fields. The elite are also elite Navy Marines and SBS divers, all of them are hand picked and the best Iran as a nearly 70 Mio. country has to offer, be sure that the Hizbollah cant be better than them, they also wont be better than the best Israeli SF's. The First Persian Gulf war was only one conflict, since then Iranian SF had operations in many other areas.

"Now, about the shiaab like i said the air defeance is getting better and better and improve so fast that while iran will have shiaab5 we will have Laser+Arrows all around israel so im pretty confident about iran ballistic ability "

Iran wont be using the "Shahab-5" in its conventional missile program, its like the Jericho-2 too expensive to be useful with a normal warhead. Only a war will show if the Arrow is capable enough and if Israel won’t get the Arrows out.

"About the F14, how much aircrafts of those iran have ? yes, not enough for a full scale war or a skrimish. and we kinda have a fleet of F15/F16I and not to montion the new F16I (102 no?)
in here its also better quailty (again i cant talk about it sorry but lets say israel have better avionics and missiles even than USA in some parts...and remember some parts in the F22 are israeli avionics) so rest assurd that Israel have the ability to shot F14 before they see our F16I or F15I (with the israeli radar that is much much much stronger... again i cant tell you but im sure you can find info about it) and if im not wrong the Foxbat two seater got the strongest radar in the world.. no ? "

Its not about the numbers or IRIAF vs. IDFAF, air wars would not happen very often on such a distance, as said if Israel comes near to Iranian airspace it will meet F-14's and here you can say what you want, Israel has no radar and no weapon system better in range than Iranian Tomcats and here its very light, the pistol/assault rifle example, nothing expect something in the class of the AIM-54 could help Israel here. The Foxbat has in output the strongest fighter radar in the world, but near to it is the AWG-9 and it has a better range because of better American software and avionic.

"israel have the upperhand with both quailty and quantity (in allmost every terms and same with the phoenix i recommand you should research a little but its hard because the info i know about our top secret missiles are not in english ) and today Israel have such advanced stealth in some ways so who knows mabye it will hard for the phoenix to track such a plane.. but all the respect for iran for managing to still have thier F14 active and dont forget that Israel kinda ate the USA F14 pilots for brakefast in our wargames"

The F-15I and F-16I are more modern than F-14's and they have all those cool modern stuff BUT, they don’t have a weapon which could match the AIM-54, Iran don’t has so much F-14 like Israel F-15 and F-16 but it can take them out from Iran when still fling in Arab airspace and one Tomcat can take out 6 Israelis, quality vs. quantity :P

Ah. and be sure that I have researched as much as possible for me on the AIM-54 especially in Iranian service and know very interesting things.

This F-14 vs. Israeli A-4 story, sorry but be sure that the F-14's had no right to use their AIM-54, if they would all, really all Israelis would have been bolted out from the sky’s, especially when the fight was over see. Also don’t forget that the F-14 is extremely manoeuvrable, but hey that not important, the modern pilot use its lance, ah I mean AIM-54 ;)

@IDFM203

"To add, besides a lot of Israeli invented missiles and lots of other things that are the most technologically advanced, I would say that nothing beats American products with Israeli add-ons and improvements to it"

Hmm... by all respect don’t be tooooo proud, upgrading is not that hard and we have enough examples were Americans did develop Israeli systems (Lavi p-) ).

"do you have a link to that, or if not can you copy or scan the article you have for I would be interested to read on this. "

No its a magazine, buying it will be the only way, to be honest I also don’t has it at hand...

But here:

"Israeli and Iranian operations against Iraqi plans to develop nuclear weapons

Long before there were concerns regarding the Iraqi nuclear weapons programmes in the West, Israel and Iran orchestrated their efforts to prevent Iraq from obtaining the capability to build the ‘bomb'. While certain aspects of the Israeli operations were widely publicised, Iran's contribution has largely been overlooked, and even less light has been shed on how closely connected its efforts were to Israeli operations.

Iranian and Israeli efforts to destroy Iraqi nuclear facilities in Tuwaitha, near Baghdad, however, were not the only strikes undertaken during the 1980s. The Iraqis also tried their best to hinder Iranian projects, and so – even though no nuclear weapons were used – all three parties flew several remarkable long-range missions, and the Iran-Iraq War could be truly considered as the ‘First Nuclear War'. "

http://www.airenthusiast.com/current_issue/images/nuke_350.jpg

http://www.airenthusiast.com/current_issue/nuke.html

(if you has the example, send be a scan, I had only a short look at it ;) )

"what Israel gave was only in certain areas and that was at most 80’s technology!!

Man Israel is now years and years much more advanced then that, though I am not sure Iran is and even if it’s a bit past 80’s technology, I know it doesn’t come close to the advance stage of where Israel is at in ALL military fields and aspects. "

I'm not going to talk about that but, lets say both had deals well into this very decade here ;)

"and like I said to you before, I do recognize the Shahab-3 threat and I do acknowledge it, I simply don’t think it can cause the amount of damage as you say, even if (and it’s a big if on your part to risk) our arrow and other defence systems don’t work.

Btw how many Shahab-3’s do you have? "

I'm actually optimistic with the Arrow and give it an optimal 50% PK, also when it was never tested against a missile in the class of the Shahab-3.

The number is completely unknown, if I would know it, I could call the Mossad and get a nice new house or something. But by now the number should be in a tree digit area and it should be expected that a "very large" number will be in the stocks by the end of the program, don’t hear to the 500 SCUD-B and 300 SCUD-C figures said for Iran. Iran will use missiles in a completely new manner, never seen yet.

"well after years of Islamic fundamentalists in Iran saying that a goal is to destroy Israel and your government being made up partly of Islamic fundamentalists, well IMO that constitutes an offensive threat once you have the full ability to do so (which nukes gives you that) "

As said many times, Iran is one of the country’s which don’t recognize Israel in its current form and it "should be gone", one can transform this in it should be destroyed.

"Iran attacks Israel all the time through its proxies that it helps fund and train, even though Israel has never attacked Iran!! "

Hmm... that is something which fall in this Israel, Iranian, Arab regional game on the might, be sure that Israel has also its hand on some conflicts Iran had to fight, but that’s normal in such games. If Israel had not attacked Shiite south Lebanon, Iran had no right to support the Hizbollah and at least this "proxy" would not be.

@Max

"If i remember correctly, the Iranian MIM-23 Hawk AAM for the F-14 was not a success. This missile was very ineffective...

So, i am bit sceptical about an Iranian AIM-54... "

Not bad someone knowing a little more on the Sedji project. Let say it so the missile has the problem that it was shorter range than the AIM-54, with no data-link/ARH guidance, it was a SARH missile and could not replace the AIM-54 for Iran and that’s why the program, was "not successful", but it worked and can be used.

"Maybe. But most of the kills scored by Iranian AIM-54s during the Iran-Iraq war were "easy targets" like MiG-21/23s. It would be interesting to see how an AIM-54 perform against a modern fighter today... "

I'd say with French ECM pods equipped Mirage F.1EQ-6 were really not bad.

"But on the other hand, dont forget that Israel is not Iraq..."

I don’t forget that and Iran never faced something like an AMRAAM equipped F-15I, but it simply has a great disadvantage to the F-14 and that’s the main weapon, AMRAAM vs. Phoenix.

"Well, you cant deny that an only a limited number of Tomcats are still in service on the 79 F-14s that Iran received (the 80th and last Iranian F-14 was never delivered). According to my sources, only 1/3 of the fleet are still in service. And i am pretty sure that the surviving aircrafts should have serviceability problems, even if Iran managed to keep some of them airworthy. Its seems doubtful that all Iranian F-14s can fly at the same time... "

Nobody said that all Iranian Tomcats are in service, they never were even in the 70's only 40 of this most complex fighter jets were at one time in service. But that’s not s important, even 10 examples at Bushir will create chaos for the Israelis. Capable of fighting near the base equipped with several 100km+ missiles and enough fuel for flying for some time at Mach 2, makes you very flexible, a priceless advantage.

"I know that Iran copy a lot of foreign equipment (AH-1 Cobra, AB-205, M60 tank, H&K MP5, Stinger, etc), but i have never see a modern 100% Iranian-developped military equipment... "

I don’t have to be Iran is still upgrading and copying, developing completely new weapons is very rare like in China, but some surprises are coming up in the nest years and months.

"Without US assistance ?"

Yes given the fact that, Iran has an own AIM-9 model and build several Maverick based PGM's and missiles, refurbishing an AIM-54 airframe is not the most difficult job Iran had to do.

[ExtraT]

To -=P=- :

Listen. I know you are a big fan of Iranian Tomcats and AIM-54, but there is NO WAY they can be a big obstacle to IAF. Iranian Tomats have been under embargo for 25 years, during that time they went through a serious war. I'm severly doubtful that anymore than 10 of them are really operational right now.
ANd it doesn't matter how "new" they look, and how many overhauls they had: Airframes are not eternal, and they have certainly been through a lot.
The same goes for AIM-54s: every missile has a shelf life, it also has limits to number of captive flights. These limits can be extended, but you need spare parts for that. And even if they could do all that (which I'm doubtful of) - they are still AIM-54A's - a nowadays obsolete design, with limited capacity for upgrade.

And another thing: Iran is not known for too much secrecy about their successes - they went to geat length to advertise every single one of their military industry successes. At the same time, when it comes to Tomcats, there is virtual silence (a couple of pictures, and a few rumors).

To M203 :

The strike against Iraqi nuclear program had indeed a very big Mossad part - a large shipment of equipment was blown up by Mossad agents in a French port, I believe.

[DPGLAW]

I hope that Isreal decides to do this and I hope that we (the US) will "allow" them to fly through the airspace which we control (Iraq) currently, I just hope that we don't make a big deal out of it , even if it's tacit consent- thats fine with me. If anything the Isrealis bombing Iran's nuclear sites only saves us the trouble of bombing them and dealing with the whining international communtiy like I am sure that the party that does this will definitely have to deal with, I think in the longrun though, it is the right thing to do. I mean many different bodies* have stated that Iran is probably conducting nuclear weapons research/construction. *(the IAEA).

[Kilgor]

What if Iran "accidently" allows the bomb to fall into the hands of Islamic terrorists ?

And gets loaded on a shipping container and detonated in a western city ?

I sincerely hope that Israel takes out the Iranian nuclear capability.

[SeanAshi]

I hope that Isreal decides to do this and I hope that we (the US) will "allow" them to fly through the airspace which we control (Iraq) currentlyIf Israel attacks Irans nuke sites, what would be the offical statement from President Bush? "We had no idea Israel was gong to do that. ;) Just like when they took out Yassin and Rantisi. We had no idea they were even targets. p-)

[IDFM203]

Nukes are Israel’s Ace, Indeed its our DEFENSIVE ace to prevent “Never Again” being waged on us, which IMO is a threat that can very much materialize with nukes in the hands of your Islamic fundamentalist gov. that has one of its goals is to destroy us and that’s a OFFENSIVE threat , but unless you use your nukes, Israel wont use what we have, for we don’t need to, our military is plenty enough to deal with you if you do attack Israel conventionally ;) :D

Hmm... by all respect don’t be tooooo proud, upgrading is not that hard and we have enough examples were Americans did develop Israeli systems (Lavi p-) ). First of all I am very proud of our own military industry that is now ranked the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world.

Secondly our industry makes and invents a lot more then it just improves on existing systems (the list is endless so for just a sampling of our add-ons as well as what we have made from scratch, click Here (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/index.html)

Btw upgrading is IMO a huge technological accomplishment in its own right and is not as easy as you say, at least that’s for the Israeli upgrades, so you can try to diminish it all you want, but I think its only YOU that is doing that for most “in the know” around the world, don’t scuff at our upgrades and improvements as you have seemed to have done

BTW besides copying a few things, can you name some homegrown military products of top technological quality that your nation has made? :roll: Just curious………….. ;)

Lastly on this, I am not sure you were joking or not, but you better check yourself on the Lavi, for while I wont deny that the Lavi had some American influence in its design (just like the euro fighter has some of the Lavi as some influence in its design p-) ), it was a wholly Israeli invented and designed plane and not an American one at all.

No its a magazine, buying it will be the only way,ok perhaps I might for what you brought down from the link didn’t really say anything on what exactly Iran did in that operation against the Iraqi osirak (sp?) reactor...

Perhaps without that article in my hands, you can tell me from what you read, what exactly Iran did to help Israel destroy that osirak reactor?

If Israel had not attacked Shiite south Lebanon, Iran had no right to support the Hizbollah and at least this "proxy" would not be. Israel attacked Lebanon AFTER it was being attacked from there.

Secondly however you look at it, it did not at all attack Iran and well they attack us…now believe me I understand the reasons and why they do it, but bottom line is that regardless of who Israel attacked in Lebanon After it was being attacked, it did NOT attack Iran, however Iran does attack Israel all the time.

As for the missiles, again I recognize that threat, but I don’t see it as a existential threat, only the nukes that you have and are getting can I view it as such and its that that is my main concern…. your military, while not underestimating it, in truth doesn’t make me have fear at all, nor do I see you even coming close in terms of technological edge in ALL aspects of a conventional army vs. ours, so if it were to be just a conventional war between both nations, I wouldn’t be too worried, I mean don’t get me wrong, I don’t want it to happen for we will lose lives (as in all wars that’s inevitable) but am I too worried for just a conventional sense?, not really!!

Lastly, just to respond to your first paragraph to AirZone, my take is that Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist regime is an offensive threat to the nation of Israel as per one of their stated goals is to destroy Israel and their nukes which is the only thing that can make them achieve that goal, are indeed a threat to the Israeli man.

I guess from your take, on this we will simply have to agree to disagree ;)

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

P - ok idfm answered what i wanted to say but lets go back to the tomcats... ^_^

Pheonix is an old weapon like everyone said bla bla bla you know the drill
Believe me i'm sure of it that USA made new missile (or developing one) and I know Israel have some missile with insane range (I wont tell about it.. mabye im a kid but i have some good common sense)

Lets just say if Israel is one of the leading in missiles (our AA missile technology is like 5 years ahead) and there are some missiles you never heard about (and you will never hear about) and believe me phoenix is nothing to worry about (not to montion today's ECM)

Lets just say...we dont have problem with any range those days ;)

[-=P=-]

@ExtraT

I don’t think so, one can even hold an MiG-21, operational for the next 50 years and the F-14 was build in a muuuch better quality, for much longer. Now is it a good idea to have in 50 years a nearly 100 year old MiG-21 ? No its not, its to complicated and expensive, a new airframe is much more economical, BUT it can be done.

Now you still think that Iran is depended on outside spare parts, but can you believe that a country like Iran actually mastered the Tomcat, on which the great USN had so many problems over the years ? Could you believe, that Iran build new spare parts from scratch, things like Laser Gyro INS systems and tubes for the AWG-9, no its unbelievable for an normal person with very less knowledge on Iran. No country in the world, expect Iran have done such a job under such conditions.

Look its, normal that you have doubts, but its not my fault, you must research for years on Iran to understand what is actually going on there.

"And another thing: Iran is not known for too much secrecy about their successes - they went to geat length to advertise every single one of their military industry successes. At the same time, when it comes to Tomcats, there is virtual silence (a couple of pictures, and a few rumors). "


Hmm... no, there are great differences in Iran’s weapon programs, there are weapons from the Army and weapons from the IRGC, both are developed independently from each other, then there are classified weapons and not classified, export weapons and own Iranian weapons. So actually many programs are VERY top secret.

@Kilgor

Oh yeah, that can only come from somebody who know nothing about Iran and the strategic condition in the region ;)

@IDFM203

Lets be realistic, this who did begin stuff is not important, both Iran and Israel, want to have the other side under control and use them for their goals and both are Naturally enemy’s and that not because of the Islam. For Iran its very "bad" to see a strong Israel with Nukes and for Israel an Iran with Nukes would be more stronger than it is already by now. Both see each other as thread and both want to be great players in the region and the world, both are independent and naturally both want to have each other under control as said.

When you say I feel treated by an Iranian Nuke, its natural but what do you expect from Iran and Iranians ? You must view this equal, no Iranian would care if an Israeli feels treated, same for Israelis.

"First of all I am very proud of our own military industry that is now ranked the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world. "

You can be, Iranians can also be, but both should not come to the idea to mess with the US :bash: p-)

"BTW besides copying a few things, can you name some homegrown military products of top technological quality that your nation has made? Just curious………….. "

My nation is not important, Iran has developed something called Saeqeh, but that’s top secret, but you will surprised to see it in the near future ;)

"Lastly on this, I am not sure you were joking or not, but you better check yourself on the Lavi, for while I wont deny that the Lavi had some American influence in its design (just like the euro fighter has some of the Lavi as some influence in its design ), it was a wholly Israeli invented and designed plane and not an American one at all. "

Hehe.... lets say it so the whole airframe design did came from an certain American company and I has some feelings that your reaction on the Lavi would be like this ;)

"ok perhaps I might for what you brought down from the link didn’t really say anything on what exactly Iran did in that operation against the Iraqi osirak (sp?) reactor...

Perhaps without that article in my hands, you can tell me from what you read, what exactly Iran did to help Israel destroy that osirak reactor? "

Hmmm... Iran had a part of the Job and Israel both did help each other in their parts, both operations were successful and there was direct communication between the IRIAF and IDFAF, that should be enough, because its a longer story.

"Israel attacked Lebanon AFTER it was being attacked from there. "

Ok but that’s not Iran’s problem, when an Lebanese Shiite Civilian was killed it is Iran’s job to help them, you know, there are not many Shiite communities in Arabia. Israsel as THE JEWISH state would also help Jews in such a case, openly or by Mossad, epically if it has interests there.... p-)

"your military, while not underestimating it, in truth doesn’t make me have fear at all, nor do I see you even coming close in terms of technological edge in ALL aspects of a conventional army vs. ours, so if it were to be just a conventional war between both nations, I wouldn’t be too worried, I mean don’t get me wrong, I don’t want it to happen for we will lose lives (as in all wars that’s inevitable) but am I too worried for just a conventional sense?, not really!! "

Tell me how Israel want to attack Iran back ? I hope you don’t read F-15 brochures and think they have operationally the range stated there.

Iran has and will have even better means to attack Israel with its aircrafts, but over such a range there are great problems, Iran has made unbelievable things flying extremely deep to the enemy, but attacking over such a range is very difficult. Having cheap, but accurate missile with the button in front of you is an great advantage. So what will Israel to against Iran ?

"Lastly, just to respond to your first paragraph to AirZone, my take is that Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist regime is an offensive threat to the nation of Israel as per one of their stated goals is to destroy Israel and their nukes which is the only thing that can make them achieve that goal, are indeed a threat to the Israeli man. "

Ok ok, lets let that by side, but tell me one question. What would happen if Israel had no nukes and Sharon and all Israeli Rabbis, would say it is against the will of our god to develop or build such weapons, because it will destroy and kill for a long time, the earth, nature and creatures, created by god, its something anti-Jewish and all Israelis agree. In the next year then Sharon come up with an Nuke, what is then ? What will the real Jews say to that in THE JEWISH state ?

@AirZone

"Pheonix is an old weapon like everyone said bla bla bla you know the drill
Believe me i'm sure of it that USA made new missile (or developing one) and I know Israel have some missile with insane range (I wont tell about it.. mabye im a kid but i have some good common sense)

Lets just say if Israel is one of the leading in missiles (our AA missile technology is like 5 years ahead) and there are some missiles you never heard about (and you will never hear about) and believe me phoenix is nothing to worry about (not to montion today's ECM) "

All nice and good, but it all runs back to one point, Iran would face AIM-120C equipped F-15I's and Derby or data-link Derby F-16I's, its not important what insane missiles Israel has, when you come you will get shot at, at range were you can do absolutely nothing.

You know missiles are technology and one can find much out about them. I don’t want to hear Phoenix is old and so bad, bring some specific arguments, what parts of the AIM-54 are too old for today’s aircrafts ?

[UoUo]

It's simple as that, iran Air Force can't get into Israel and the IAF can get Into iran.


Just cheack the F-15I and the F-16I fly range.

[AirZone]

Sorry P but i said i cant tell you anything about those missile (mabye missiles ? ;)) if you want you can go and look for it in the net... you will be suprised ;)


about the phoenix... its old news (Im allmost sure israel checked this missile and how it works) there are so many new missiles in the world...mabye some even copied the parts of the phoenix in thier own (mabye israel did mabye not)

but you said pistol/rifle

hmmm lets say its M16A1 is better than M4... see ? (longer but who said its better ? ;) and btw M4 use the new bullets so the range is the same *cough* hint *cough*)

[-=P=-]

Heh, Iran cant, yes ?

But Israel can ?

Ok as an Israeli its now you job to make me an battle plan for Israel, with payload, range, drop tanks, AAR, flight profile and level, weapons used, route and reserves for F-15I, F-16I and F-4E.

Do that and we will see how effective Israel and attack Iran, I would make it for the Iranian side.


PS: I only do it when you do it professional, I only accept a real serious research p-)

*edit*

@AirZone

Hehe, a M-16, M-4 story is not going, nice about we speak here about missiles and even AAM's ;)

[UoUo]

Heh, Iran cant, yes ?

But Israel can ?

Ok as an Israeli its now you job to make me an battle plan for Israel, with payload, range, drop tanks, AAR, flight profile and level, weapons used, route and reserves for F-15I, F-16I and F-4E.

Do that and we will see how effective Israel and attack Iran, I would make it for the Iranian side.


PS: I only do it when you do it professional, I only accept a real serious research p-)

*edit*

@AirZone

Hehe, a M-16, M-4 story is not going, nice about we speak here about missiles and even AAM's ;)

Please...can you name me 1 iranian Air Craft that have the range to get Into Israel?

[-=P=-]

An KC-707 or Buddy refueled Su-24MK, is good ? :P

[UoUo]

An KC-707 or Buddy refueled Su-24MK, is good ? :P

No..cuz you don't have chance to pass iraq with an An KC-707. :D

In the other hand...our F-15I can strike iran..and fly all the way home With out any refueleing in the air.

BTW: the iranian even has a capability to strike in the night? i Mean...what missile they use? and the iranian have GPS guided bombs?

[UoUo]

Or you gonna fire us that :

http://www.afwing.com/gallery/iran/7.jpg

[mustamato]

Or you gonna fire us that

http://www.afwing.com/gallery/iran/7.jpg

woot

http://www.jinsa.org/documents/200307/2104.jpg

http://kazkami93.skyblog.com/pics/543277.jpg

[AirZone]

Or you gonna fire us that

http://www.afwing.com/gallery/iran/7.jpg

woot

http://www.jinsa.org/documents/200307/2104.jpg

http://kazkami93.skyblog.com/pics/543277.jpg

You know whats more funny? they hate europe too...and you know whats more funny ? when they will have a missile that will able to hit your country i hope israel wont sell you our ARROW missile...

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[UoUo]

First..you are so lame. :)

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/surface_missiles/arrow/arrow.jpg

http://iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/8/16988.jpg

woot


And:

http://iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/0/21690.jpg

http://iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/17036.jpg

http://israeli-weapons.com/images/sub/new/popeye2.jpg

woot

http://israeli-weapons.com/images/sub/new/delilah_2.jpg

http://israeli-weapons.com/images/sub/new/msov.jpg


http://israeli-weapons.com/images/sub/new/spice.jpg

http://israeli-weapons.com/images/sub/new/tald.jpg

:bash: woot :hug:

[-=P=-]

@UoUo

"No..cuz you don't have chance to pass iraq with an An KC-707. "

Ah you are talking about it happen under real war conditions ? I hard only "what Iranian aircraft can reach Israel" :P

But that’s not the problem; a Su-24 can theoretically reach Israel and fly back but middle in the way they can be refuelled by other Su-24 which carry buddy refuelling packs p-)

But that’s not important nor realistic, I know the range of the F-15I but if you don’t want to make "an battle plan for Israel, with payload, range, speed profile, drop tanks, AAR, flight profile and levels, weapons used, route and reserves for F-15I, F-16I and F-4E. " I wont talk about that deeper.

"BTW: the iranian even has a capability to strike in the night?"

Yes those Su-24's can attack at night.

"..what missile they use? and the iranian have GPS guided bombs?"

Iran can use stand-off missiles, so not to fly into Israeli airspace and also some other missiles but I don’t want to talk about specific missiles, GPS is also used in Iran yes.

Unlike others Iran has precise and smart stand-off missiles, you will be not alone with the Popeye p-)

"Or you gonna fire us that : "

That is this project Sedji from the 80's, be sure that for an enemy like Iran, real AIM-54's will be used and not these cheap "MiG-21Killer" ones.

*edit*


http://mitglied.lycos.de/rapier/Shahab-3Parade.JPG

look at the picture down in the left corner a nice family portray.

[UoUo]

Hm...btw: you have 1 of those?

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/space/ofeq-5/ofeq-5_r.JPG

Oh yes...it secert..you can't talk about that. :D

[-Max2-]

The F-15I and F-16I are more modern than F-14's and they have all those cool modern stuff BUT, they don’t have a weapon which could match the AIM-54, Iran don’t has so much F-14 like Israel F-15 and F-16 but it can take them out from Iran when still fling in Arab airspace and one Tomcat can take out 6 Israelis, quality vs. quantity

Half true...

In theory, a Tomcat can carry a maximum of six AIM-54 Phoenix but the plane is then very heavy (less manoeuvrable, reduced mission radius).

Usually, a Tomcat carry only two Phoenix (or none)... ;)

[-=P=-]

No Ofecs in Iran and nice pics you posted on the Arrow, but I need only this Shahab-3 picture.

Also who said that Iran hates Europe ?

@Max

True, Iranian Tomcats carry 2 AIM-54 normally, but with all the theory I wanted also to bring some theory.

But don’t forget that Iranian Tomcats don’t have to land on carriers and could take 6 AIM-54's, especially when Bushir which is 10-20km away was attacked ;) (Iran has never used Tomcats with 6 Phoenix)

[UoUo]

And who said that iran hate Israel?

[mustamato]

Also who said that Iran hates Europe ?

http://evatt.labor.net.au/news/images/ayatollah.jpg
... lived in exile in Europe

[UoUo]

So how many F-14 iran use?

And some honest que'

Did the iranian change the origanal radar of the F-14? and what about the Engine? and after all...how many phonix iran have? and what other Air to Air missile they use?

[mustamato]

So how many F-14 iran use?

And some honest que'

Did the iranian change the origanal radar of the F-14? and what about the Engine? and after all...how many phonix iran have? and what other Air to Air missile they use?

The Iranians have made some reverse engineering on their F-14´s, the engines
have been changed and so forth. I don´t know the exact details, but I can say that
it´s not the same shiat it was in 1979. Despite that some people would like to think so,
Iranians, and moslems in general, doesn´t live in caves.

[UoUo]

In general most of them do.

[-=P=-]

The radar and the engines were not replaced.

And the number of Iranian Tomcats in unknown.

[UoUo]

In other words...the F-14 are old...very very old.
And you few F-14. :D

[-=P=-]

Lets get suprised p-)

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203

Lets be realistic, this who did begin stuff is not important, both Iran and Israel, want to have the other side under control and use them for their goals and both are Naturally enemy’s and that not because of the Islam. ok please explain to me what Israel wants to control Iran for?? What offensive intentions does Israel have for Iran.

I mean it hasn’t attacked it for over fifty years but yet somehow you say it wants to control it??

Iran on the other hand has been attacking Israel and secondly your Islamic fundamentalist gov. has one of their stated goals is to destroy Israel, that is further a offensive threat.

That’s a religious threat and goals, and that’s a plausible happening.


For Iran its very "bad" to see a strong Israel with Nukeswe have (allegedly ;) ) had them for over thirty years and yet never used them nor ever attacked Iran.

No it’s clear that your nukes are to fulfill that Islamic fundamentalist ideology and long Muslim goal in that region of destroying Israel, that a lot of your people and your gov. hold.


and for Israel an Iran with Nukes would be more stronger than it is already by now. no its not about mere stronger, its about now Iran would have the offensive means to destroy Israel and with a suicidal Islamic fundamentalist gov. I am not sure that MAD will work.


When you say I feel treated by an Iranian Nuke, its natural but what do you expect from Iran and Iranians ? Yes they supposedly feel threatened :roll: because you know Israel has never threatened Iran to destroy it nor has it ever attacked Iran :roll: ……I don’t see a correlation at all to how we feel in that for years you have been attacking us and you have also been threatening to annihilate us and now you are getting nukes to do that.


You must view this equal, :cantbeli: :roll: equal is simply not the reality as I explained before!!


You can be, Iranians can also be, but both should not come to the idea to mess with the US :bash: p-) indeed why would any one mess with the U.S. but again "First of all I am very proud of our own military industry that is now ranked the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world. " :D :D

I hope you understand what producer means or even what forth or fifth in the world means ;) :D


but that’s top secret, but you will surprised to see it in the near future ;) you know you might not be the Arabs but you sure as hell sound like them ;) ..I mean your absurd contentions with your old tomcats as if that can destroy our air force or that’s its better then what we have, which is utterly ridicules and then this “you will see” crap that I have seen you use a few times, gees we have heard it all before :roll: …oh and no we aren’t underestimating you but at the same time we sure as hell know when someone has nothing are very little how they like to make up stuff so you know they can sleep better at night thinking we were foolish enough to believe how “powerful” you have become because you know, we will see :roll: …….that’s all you got!!

Again your shaibes (sp?) and your nukes are IMO all that really scare me as for the rest, you can keep your you will see for someone else ;)


Hehe.... lets say it so the whole airframe design did came from an certain American company and I has some feelings that your reaction on the Lavi would be like this ;) haha :lol: :D and indeed I also knew you would have some vague answer like that……so here, do tell me what avionics and electronics came from the U.S. oh and please elaborate on how the airframe is American.


Hmmm... Iran had a part of the Job and Israel both did help each other in their parts, both operations were successful and there was direct communication between the IRIAF and IDFAF, that should be enough, because its a longer story. ok I guess you for whatever reason aren’t going to tell me anything for again thats way to vague so perhaps I will get the article for I don’t understand why it would be difficult to just tell me some details on how Iran helped Israel attack that osirak reactor……oh well



Ok but that’s not Iran’s problem, when an Lebanese Shiite Civilian was killed it is Iran’s job to help them, the bottom line is that Israel was attacking AFTER it was being attacked and it never attacked Iran.

Even when you fight Israel through your proxies, Israel does not do the same to Iran at all and Israel as far as I know has never attacked Iran..

I say again I believe I understand why you do it, but it doesn’t make right or is justified for you to attack Israel even though we never attacked you at all!!



Tell me how Israel want to attack Iran back ? well you tell me how your nation would attack Israel.

Seconbldy I am not going to write a whole long battle plan here, all I am simply saying is that conventional army for army, you are no match, not even close…….now indeed the only problem is the geographic distances to both nations, but you have that problem as well (though IMO our air force is not as constrained by that problem as yours is, even with you few so called “supernatural and awesome tomcats” ;) :roll: )


I hope you don’t read F-15 brochures and think they have operationally the range stated there. its not about believing any mere brochures, but its fact that both the f15I and the f16I can reach your nation!! :D


"Lastly, just to respond to your first paragraph to AirZone, my take is that Iran’s Islamic fundamentalist regime is an offensive threat to the nation of Israel as per one of their stated goals is to destroy Israel and their nukes which is the only thing that can make them achieve that goal, are indeed a threat to the Israeli man. "

Ok ok, lets let that by side, but tell me one question. I am not going to put that aside at all for that is the crux of this argument.

Secondly I don’t understand where you are going with your rabbi thing for one, you say real Jews, well that is already a mistake, for any Jew that was born with a Jewish mother is as real and the same as real as any rabbi…..

Secondly I find your question to be off the wall that I am not even going to bother to answer it, unless you can bring any relevance in fact on how our nukes are for offensive purposes and not for defensive purposes to defend and save lives of which IMO it has done for the past thirty years.

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

If you want to talk about tactics....

Low flight F15I, F16I with our advanced Air to Ground... Spice ? Dlilah ? Lite Popeye ? ;) will do the job then they will get outta there before Iran radar will notice...

[UoUo]

Lets get suprised p-)

Time will tell my friend...time will tell...

And maybe not? :)

[-Max2-]

how many phonix iran have

Iran has ordered 714 AIM-54A Phoenix, but "only" 284 were delivered before the Iranian Revolution in 1979. A number of Phoenix were used during the Iran-Iraq war. The current state of those missiles (who have more than 25 years old) is...debatable. ;)


and what other Air to Air missile they use?

IRIAF use (or used) the AIM-7E Sparrow and the AIM-9P/J Sidewinder. Both of them are obsolete. =P= said that Iranian F-14s are able to fire the R-73, but it is still unconfirmed.

[AirZone]

Lets get suprised p-)

Time will tell my friend...time will tell...

And maybe not? :) I hope not.. :lol:

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"ok please explain to me what Israel wants to control Iran for?? What offensive intentions does Israel have for Iran.

I mean it hasn’t attacked it for over fifty years but yet somehow you say it wants to control it?? "

I thought we would put the show by side ??

Every nation which is independent and wants to be a strong player, try to get possible hostile nations under control, that’s natural, if you come with Israel don’t want that and so on, sorry but for me that’s only, show like for Iran some things are only show, do we understand us ? ;)

But better I don’t talk about such things in a public forum, don’t want to destroy the nice world of most peoples.

"Iran on the other hand has been attacking Israel and secondly your Islamic fundamentalist gov. has one of their stated goals is to destroy Israel, that is further a offensive threat. "

Its not Iran’s goal, if you haven’t understand that the current situation, is that what _ _ _ _ wants, then I'm sorry. If one problem is gone another problem grows...

"That’s a religious threat and goals, and that’s a plausible happening. "

Do you think Iran is Holy ? Do you think the Mullahs are at might for the Islam ? Mullahs are humans and after might, they want to live their live with money and woman’s, nobody cares on destroying Israel, if it would cause any shortcomings for their position. Same for the Israelis.

"we have (allegedly ) had them for over thirty years and yet never used them nor ever attacked Iran. "

Come on, a threat is a threat and an Ace will remain an Ace.

"Yes they supposedly feel threatened because you know Israel has never threatened Iran to destroy it nor has it ever attacked Iran"

Same for the current Iranian government and Israeli defence minister has threaten Iran to attack it.

"I hope you understand what producer means or even what forth or fifth in the world means "

Sure be proud, Israel is indeed in the top area on this field.

"you know you might not be the Arabs but you sure as hell sound like them "

Same for you I say only proven things, when I say Tomcat Tomcat because, I know its capability and not because Iran has them. You know the Tomcats are one of Iran’s Ace's.

"haha and indeed I also knew you would have some vague answer like that……so here, do tell me what avionics and electronics came from the U.S. oh and please elaborate on how the airframe is American. "

I think it was Grumman, they also "designed" the Kifr, also very important is that most money did come from America. Talking about the Lavi, you can 3 times guess who was Israelis partner expect America ;)

"ok I guess you for whatever reason aren’t going to tell me anything for again thats way to vague so perhaps I will get the article for I don’t understand why it would be difficult to just tell me some details on how Iran helped Israel attack that osirak reactor……oh well "

Its simply a long story, but the help was from both sides in form of RF-4E/F-4S and other things.

"the bottom line is that Israel was attacking AFTER it was being attacked and it never attacked Iran.

Even when you fight Israel through your proxies, Israel does not do the same to Iran at all and Israel as far as I know has never attacked Iran.. "

Israel has also its proxies you only don’t know about them and I don’t care if Palestinians, attacked you from Lebanon you must deal with them, but by invading Lebanon with the Shiite Lebanese, you did a mistake and so Iran did join as supporter.

Israel has its proxies, but not officially under the hand, just for example the MKO was supported by Israel/Mossad.

The war with the Hizbollah is over, now they are like a pistol in front of you, waiting.

"its not about believing any mere brochures, but its fact that both the f15I and the f16I can reach your nation!! "

But under which conditions ? Only a battle plan will show it and because I'm knowing some things about both aircrafts, I don’t think it will be easy. It is clear that both can reach Iran, I don’t want to fight on this, but the question is under which conditions.

"I am not going to put that aside at all for that is the crux of this argument. "

this argument is too hard for, you, if would destroy your so called fear about the "Iranian Nuke", its not in your interest to see that Iran in fact don’t try to get the nuke p-)

"Secondly I don’t understand where you are going with your rabbi thing for one, you say real Jews, well that is already a mistake, for any Jew that was born with a Jewish mother is as real and the same as real as any rabbi….. "

For some Israelis their religion is more important than for others and I meaned that with "real jews", ok ? ;)

"unless you can bring any relevance in fact on how our nukes are for offensive purposes and not for defensive purposes to defend and save lives of which IMO it has done for the past thirty years. "

I don’t claim that your Nukes are "offensive", but you have a button connected to a Jericho-2 waiting in its silo with a several Megaton strong Nuke sitting on its top, ready for start, that’s "offensive" Iran.

@AirZone

Sorry but your battle plan is still to simple, to be professional.

"IRIAF use (or used) the AIM-7E Sparrow and the AIM-9P/J Sidewinder. Both of them are obsolete. =P= said that Iranian F-14s are able to fire the R-73, but it is still unconfirmed."

AFM, reported it, we only have no picture, but we have pictures of Iranian R-73's. There are several other AA missiles in Iran, but you named the most important, I only would not call the AIM-9P and AIM-7E obsolete, they are mot modern anymore but Iran has worked on them and they are not bas if used in the right way.

[AirZone]

Well P, im not a tactican...i will let to better people in the IAF to do that job ;)

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203
Every nation which is independent and wants to be a strong player, try to get possible hostile nations under control, that’s natural, if you come with Israel don’t want that and so on, sorry but for me that’s only, show like for Iran some things are only show, do we understand us ? ;) No its not show because we have proven that we don’t want Iran nor do we want to control it for we haven’t attacked it for over fifty years and plus we have had (allegedly ;) ) nukes for over thirty years and yet haven’t used it at all and also no one in our gov. nor has any Israeli, nor do most Israelis for that matter, ever threatened to annihilate and destroy Iran.

However your nation does attack us and a lot of your people as well as your Islamic fundamentalist gov has threatened to annihilate Israel and till now you haven’t had the power to even try, but with nukes that can change and as such it must be viewed as a OFFENSIVE threat.

I think I have tolled you this before, but I will repeat it anyways…..I think it was Golda mair who one said, that "when Hitler has said the things he said, no one believed him, and yet we see what happened, so when Nasser (in 1967) said the things he said, we had no choice but to believe him” and the same here, we have no choice but to take your threats seriously.


"we have (allegedly ) had them for over thirty years and yet never used them nor ever attacked Iran. "

Come on, a threat is a threat :roll: what threat? When have we ever said we want to destroy or annihilate you?

Secondly it’s proof that we don’t want to in the fact that we have had them (again allegedly ;) ) for over thirty years and yet haven’t used it at all.

Spare me how you feel we offensively threaten you, I am not buying that it’s the reason why you want nukes ;) :roll:


Same for the current Iranian government and Israeli defence minister has threaten Iran to attack it. No we never threatned to attack Iran as you make it sound, for all we did was threaten to attack the nuke sites that can destroy us and that is all, we never said we want to destroy Iran or harm your people, big difference in that your nation has threatened to destroy us and annihilate us.


Same for you I say only proven things, no you don’t, you make your tomcats sound so superior that our air force will be destroyed on it :roll: rofl ………..and yet you say you only dabble in proven things :roll:


I think it was Grumman, they also "designed" the Kifr, no the kafir is Israeli designed based on a French mirage.

so can you show me how Grumman desinged the airframe for the Lavi? A link please ;)


also very important is that most money did come from America. Talking about the Lavi, yes on the Lavi, indeed the money was in part coming from America and well they stopped it, and in a way I can understand them ;) , I mean why would they want to fund an Israeli designed and built plane that is superior to any fighter they have p-) (at that time)

But again the Lavi is mostly an Israeli designed and built plane, and in fact a lot of the avionics and electronics from that program still live on in the jets that Israel upgrades now from the U.S. that it has :D


Israel has its proxies, but not officially under the hand, just for example the MKO was supported by Israel/Mossad. A few questions, one is can you prove the Mossad helped them? And how much help?

When did they start doing it>

Lastly, what violent actions have they done against Iran with Israeli help?


this argument is too hard for, you, if would destroy your so called fear about the "Iranian Nuke", its not in your interest to see that Iran in fact don’t try to get the nuke p-) I think I might understand where YOU are going with this, but I ask that you elaborate here so as I don’t make a mistake of misunderstanding you here if in case I understand you wrong here.


For some Israelis their religion is more important than for others and I meaned that with "real jews", ok ? ;) boy is this waaaaaaaay off topic but oh well…….. :roll:

First of all the “some” whose religion is more important then for others, are a minority in Israel for the reality is that majority of Israel are secular.

Secondly even the ultra orthodox recognize that if you have a Jewish mother you are as real as any other Jew even if they aren’t religious.

I get what you tried to say just I think you used the wrong words (“real”), for indeed a orthodox person will consider a non observant one to not be as religious or as observant to the religious Jewish laws that he follows, but he wont say he is not a real Jew, simply that he might hold that he is wrong and he should be observant but that is it.

You know for example in prayer, your supposed to have a “minuen” (quorum(SP)) of at minimum ten people and EVERY Jew, no matter if he is religious or not, came be counted and pray together and ALL religious Jews hold that as well, if they consider non relegious to not be real jews they wouldnt allow them to be there in prayer!!



I don’t claim that your Nukes are "offensive", but you have a button connected to a Jericho-2 waiting in its silo with a several Megaton strong Nuke sitting on its top, ready for start, that’s "offensive" Iran. Boy you contradict your self in this one paragraph where from the first line to the last line :roll: , (go read it again ;) ). Anyways yes we have all that (allegedly ;) ) but that is ONLY for DEFENSIVE purposes AFTER we are first attacked by such weapons and secondly it all fits into the MAD principle which is ONLY for DEFNSIVE purposes as that is a DEFENSIVE detterant, though with Islamic fundamentalists that have threatened to annihilate and destroy us, I am not so sure MAD works and that is even a more worrisome OFFENISVE threat to us!!

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

We repeat ourselves more and more.

"No its not show because we have proven that we don’t want Iran nor do we want to control it for we haven’t attacked it for over fifty years "

That’s not a prove, Iran has also not attacked Israel, is that a prove ?

" what threat? When have we ever said we want to destroy or annihilate you? "

Not completely but has Iran ?

"No we never threatned to attack Iran as you make it sound, for all we did was threaten to attack the nuke sites that can destroy us and that is all, we never said we want to destroy Iran or harm your people, big difference in that your nation has threatened to destroy us and annihilate us. "

Attack is attack, should Iran strike your Dimona and Jericho threats ?

"no you don’t, you make your tomcats sound so superior that our air force will be destroyed on it ………..and yet you say you only dabble in proven things "

Never said that, only that attacking Israelis will meet Iranian Cats and they have a great advantage. Its again not a IDFAF vs. IRIAF thing, the IDFAF is in most fields stronger anyway. but what I said about the Tomcats are "proven".

"no the kafir is Israeli designed based on a French mirage.

so can you show me how Grumman designed the airframe for the Lavi? A link please "

Oh links on such things are difficult, I have read a report some time ago, see it as a claim, but also see that I did only say the airframe, not its systems, something in which Israel had no real experience at that time.

"yes on the Lavi, indeed the money was in part coming from America and well they stopped it, and in a way I can understand them , I mean why would they want to fund an Israeli designed and built plane that is superior to any fighter they have (at that time) "

:lol: Better than F-15 and F-14 hä ? didn’t, we agree on not ..... with the US on aerospace technologie ? p-) ;)

"A few questions, one is can you prove the Mossad helped them? And how much help?

When did they start doing it>

Lastly, what violent actions have they done against Iran with Israeli help? "

Many terrorist acts, with bombs and so on. I cant prove anything on that, when I could someone in the top of the Mossad would get kicked out, but I have my "personal source’s.

Can you prove that Iran had actively supported a terrorist group ? Don’t forget that Hizbollah is in it most parts a army.

“I think I might understand where YOU are going with this, but I ask that you elaborate here so as I don’t make a mistake of misunderstanding you here if in case I understand you wrong here. "

here you go; "What would happen if Israel had no nukes and Sharon and all Israeli Rabbis, would say it is against the will of our god to develop or build such weapons, because it will destroy and kill for a long time, the earth, nature and creatures, created by god, its something anti-Jewish and all Israelis agree. In the next year then Sharon come up with an Nuke, what is then ? What will the real Jews say to that in THE JEWISH state ? "

Answer please.

"First of all the “some” whose religion is more important then for others, are a minority in Israel for the reality is that majority of Israel are secular.

Secondly even the ultra orthodox recognize that if you have a Jewish mother you are as real as any other Jew even if they aren’t religious."

No offence but like with your bad experiences with Hitler and Nasser and your mistrust, I'm not interested to talk about who is a real Jew or not, these are not my problems. Real Jews are those who believe in what the Rabbis and the Thora say and what the Jewish state say and if they say we nukes are against our believe but build them in the next years, those real Jew will have "some doubts". Is this ok ? Didn’t want to go that off-topic, its simple.

Shalom :D

"Boy you contradict your self in this one paragraph where from the first line to the last line , (go read it again ). "

Not really, I only wanted to say that this word offensive has different meanings, that’s because I did those " "'s.

[IDFM203]

"No its not show because we have proven that we don’t want Iran nor do we want to control it for we haven’t attacked it for over fifty years "

That’s not a prove, Iran has also not attacked Israel, is that a prove ? no Iran does attack Israel!! Secondly Iran never had nukes till now…….you see Israel has had the power to destroy Iran for years now and yet never acted on it nor has it ever threatened to destroy Iran, however Iran has threatened to destroy us, but till your got nukes, you couldn’t do that, now that you are getting nukes, well your threats in the past to destroy us have to be taken as a serious OFFENISVE threat now that you can do it with your nukes.


" what threat? When have we ever said we want to destroy or annihilate you? "

Not completely but has Iran ? not completely or not even minimally, all we said was that we want to go after those sites and that is all…..

Secondly a lot of your people as well as a lot in the Islamic fundamentalist regime that you have, have said in the past (along with your military parades that have death to Israel themes written on it) that a goal would be the destruction of Israel.

Yes your nation has threatened us!!


Attack is attack”attack is attack” is some of the most juvenile and small thinking I have heard :roll: …Listen, attack your nuke sites that can destroy us is not the same as you attacking to destroy us.

I mean we never threatened to annihilate you as you have done to us.

Big difference in the targets of you (the whole Israel) and us(just those nuke sites)!!


Oh links on such things are difficult, I have read a report some time ago, see it as a claim, but also see that I did only say the airframe, ok so I haven’t see anything to that and frankly I doubt it, so I guess you can keep "your claim" ;)

Anyways there are tons more that Israel has developed then just the Lavi so even if you are right about just the airframe, it in no way diminishes what we developed for the Lavi or does it at all diminish the OVERALL accomplishments of our arms industry or the fact that we are now the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world :D



:lol: Better than F-15 and F-14 hä ? didn’t, we agree on not ..... with the US on aerospace technologie ? p-) ;) I am not sure what you claim I agreed on here ;) for I recall saying that there is nothing better then Israel arms industry or that there is no better combination then American jets with Israeli add on’s p-) ;)

yep that’s what I said ;)

(btw I knew you would like what I said about the Lavi p-) ;))


Many terrorist acts, with bombs and so on. I cant prove anything on that, when I could someone in the top of the Mossad would get kicked out, but I have my "personal source’s. Bottom line is that I don’t think you can trace the Mossad to helping in training and in arms to this group and such I have to view what you said with extreme skepticism (and please spare me you condensention on how you know from your “sources” and now you cant not talk about it blah blah :roll: ).

Secondly when do you claim this happened? Meaning when in your view did the Mossad start to do this?


Can you prove that Iran had actively supported a terrorist group ? Don’t forget that Hizbollah is in it most parts a army. why do I even have to do the research when before you never contested it…..just curious, you deny that Iran helps with training and with arms to hetballha?? (I am just curious to see you answer in case I do decide to do some research on this ;) )


here you go; "What would happen if Israel had no nukes and Sharon and all Israeli Rabbis, would say it is against the will of our god to develop or build such weapons, because it will destroy and kill for a long time, the earth, nature and creatures, created by god, its something anti-Jewish and all Israelis agree. In the next year then Sharon come up with an Nuke, what is then ? What will the real Jews say to that in THE JEWISH state ? "

Answer please. ahh?? That’s an implausible question for Israel is secular nation and is ruled by secular laws and no polices or actions are taken simply because rabbis say something.

Secondly the rabbis aren’t against us having nukes for self defense, as they are.

Israel is a secular Jewish nation, meaning everyone who has a Jewish mother is a Jew and is a real Jew, plain and simple!! The orthodox Jews live in this secular Jewish state but they are awaiting the messiah to come to redeem us from around the world and then when he comes as the belief goes will there be a different type of Jewish state.

This isn’t a religious class here so I wont go further but that is the best I could do now.

I say again, perhaps if your question had any relevance in reality would I address it more but it doesn’t so this is the answer you get.



I'm not interested to talk about who is a real Jew or not, these are not my problems. Real Jews are those who believe in what the Rabbis and the Thora say and what the Jewish state saywrong!! Orthodox Jews believe in the Torah and what the rabbis say, but not necessarily believe in what the secular state says….now they follow all the laws of it for most orthodox are law abiding citizens, but it doesn’t mean they agree or believe with it.

Judaism has lots of factions to it with all different levels of observance or non observance, but the one commonalty is that if you have a Jewish mother, it makes no difference if you are orthodox or secular, you are just as a real Jew as any orthodox Jew.

Please try now to tell me as a Jew what a real Jew is for its quite foolish for you to insist you know better then me on what a real Jew is :roll:


and if they say we nukes are against our believe but build them in the next years, those real Jew will have "some doubts". Is this ok ? Didn’t want to go that off-topic, its simple. no it is way off topic and has no reality to it….here watch ok say orthodox Jews (gees get off your real Jews language :roll: ) say hypothetically they say what you say, so? What’s your point?

Israel as a collection of jJews of all differnt levels of observencs has many differing opinions on all sorts of things, so as such I dont get what you are trying to say here :roll:

Shalom :D

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

There are really some misunderstandings....

"no Iran does attack Israel!! Secondly Iran never had nukes till now…….you see Israel has had the power to destroy Iran for years now and yet never acted on it nor has it ever threatened to destroy Iran, however Iran has threatened to destroy us, but till your got nukes, you couldn’t do that, now that you are getting nukes, well your threats in the past to destroy us have to be taken as a serious OFFENISVE threat now that you can do it with your nukes. "

Do you know how this sound to me ? The point is there is no official statement that Iran want to attack Israel OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY, by LAW its forbidden in Iran to start an offensive war using the Army. The Army is only for self-defence.

I can say what I want you will still, say "Iran say it wants to destroy Israel", but hey, until now only the Israeli defence minister said that Israel would attack Iran, the Iranian defence minister said, IF they do that Iran will strike back.

Its simple for me, you need this threat p-)

"not completely or not even minimally, all we said was that we want to go after those sites and that is all….. "

Even if an small house is destroyed, Its a attack and Iran could strike back.

"Anyways there are tons more that Israel has developed then just the Lavi so even if you are right about just the airframe, it in no way diminishes what we developed for the Lavi or does it at all diminish the OVERALL accomplishments of our arms industry or the fact that we are now the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world "

Be proud but don’t forget who is your master, in this field ;)

" (and please spare me you condensention on how you know from your “sources” and now you cant not talk about it blah blah ). "

I would talk about it if I would know more, that’s no problem.

"Secondly when do you claim this happened? Meaning when in your view did the Mossad start to do this? "

After the second Persian Gulf war, during the 90's. But not only this, Iran claims that during the revolution, Mossad agents did shoot at protestors, as Iranians didn’t want to. So if you want to go by time, that was the first attack on Iran. p-)

"why do I even have to do the research when before you never contested it…..just curious, you deny that Iran helps with training and with arms to hetballha?? (I am just curious to see you answer in case I do decide to do some research on this ) "

Yes the armed forces of the Lebanese official political party Hizbollah.

"ahh?? That’s an implausible question for Israel is secular nation and is ruled by secular laws and no polices or actions are taken simply because rabbis say something. "

Ohh... misunderstandings....

That is a what if question connected to Iran, and you are to answer it.

What IF a "Jewish republic of Israel".... "What would happen if Israel had no nukes and Sharon and all Israeli Rabbis, would say it is against the will of our god to develop or build such weapons, because it will destroy and kill for a long time, the earth, nature and creatures, created by god, its something anti-Jewish and all Israelis agree. In the next year then Sharon come up with an Nuke, what is then ? What will the real Jews say to that in THE JEWISH state ? "

Answer please.

[IDFM203]

Ok we are defiantly going in circles now :roll: ……..so lets try again ;)

@IDFM203

There are really some misunderstandings.... . Indeed so now I suggest you try to read and understand clearly what I am saying so as to avoid any misunderstandings ;)


Do you know how this sound to me ? The point is there is no official statement that Iran want to attack Israel . A lot in your population as well as a lot in your Islamic fundamentalist gov. have stated in the past a goal is to destroy Israel….just because there is no official statement in English to the gullible west doesn’t mean that it has never been said before by people in your gov. secondly those parades with death to Israel themes written on it shows even further your intentions against us.



until now only the Israeli defence minister said that Israel would attack Iran, . :cantbeli: Wrong!! He said he would attack those nuke sites in Iran………Not that he will attack Iran as you institute or the nation of Iran or ever threatened to destroy Iran, as a lot in your nation has threatened about ours nation for years.


Its simple for me, you need this threat p-) . Ridicules :roll: ……its too absurd for me to even address seriously other then to say, believe me if anything it’s the Arabs and Muslims in the region that need a strong Israel so everyone can concrete on the “great saten” and constantly just focus on building up your arms, as a way to sidetrack from the pitiful state in almost everything most of your nations in the mid east has fallen to p-)


Even if an small house is destroyed, Its a attack and Iran could strike back. . ok I can understand that you would think that, but like I said, from the start, I don’t think you can really do much in the way of destroying us if we were to take out your nuke sites.

In truth I agree it would be diffuclt to find and hit your nuke sites Ifor I am sure they are spread out) but you must understand that the "little house" that we hit isnt some little house but rather its a offensive weapon to destroy us and IMO we need to do something about it!!


Be proud but don’t forget who is your master, in this field ;) . Irrelevant (though yes I agree that they pay for their influence of controlling a lot of what we do in our defense and keeping us much more restrained then they would ever (or anyone would sanely be) be for their own defense so as to try to appease Arab oil and the Musli,,,,,,,,ah you know p-) ) but anyways no matter what, we are the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world and no matter what, your damn right I am proud of that :D (in a military sense).


After the second Persian Gulf war, during the 90's. But not only this, Iran claims that during the revolution, . oh so Iran claims that’s true :roll: ,…hahah rofl rofl yeah I thought that was your sources.

Yeah its always the Mossad no matter what in this region :roll: ….naah you got nothing so you bring this made up BS

Thought so!! ;)

Anyways what’s not in doubt is that your nation attacks Israel and I see even you don’t contest that!!


That is a what if question connected to Iran, and you are to answer it. first of all I don’t live in the Muslim world (nor am I your women p-) ) where you can boss me around or order me with this “you are to answer it” bullcrap :roll:

Secondly when you address the question with a proper factual basis then maybe I will bother a bit more, for now your insistence on the term real Jew and on who you ONLY place that on is factually false!! (Now I believe the third time I mentioned this :roll: ). Also Israel is a secular Jewish state….any other term is wrong

Laslty, your whole premise is wrong to begin with as I explained before, for me to even attempt to answer it in a more detailed way.


Anyways I already answered it somewhat (the rabbis approve of self defense!! period!!)

Shalom :D

[Midav]

Good replies IDFM203!

People will read what you say, but doubt they will take the time to actually understand the message you convey.

[IDFM203]

Good replies IDFM203!

People will read what you say, but doubt they will take the time to actually understand the message you convey.Well thanks (and indeed not everyone will accept what I say) though I am surprised by now anyone other then -=P=- is reading this ;) , but hey nice to know :D

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

I thought we could speak here serious but you still have your "politics"...

"A lot in your population as well as a lot in your Islamic fundamentalist gov. have stated in the past a goal is to destroy Israel….just because there is no official statement in English to the gullible west doesn’t mean that it has never been said before by people in your gov. secondly those parades with death to Israel themes written on it shows even further your intentions against us. "

If that is all so, why there is no official statement ? The western press and the Israeli are searching everywhere to find such a official statement.

Seriously its irrelevant, what you have heard, first when Iran officially says that it want to destroy Israel, you can come here and say that it is Iran’s goal.

"Wrong!! He said he would attack those nuke sites in Iran………Not that he will attack Iran as you institute or the nation of Iran or ever threatened to destroy Iran, as a lot in your nation has threatened about ours nation for years. "

Your country is a threat since your nuke-tipped Jericho missile have such a long range to strike Iran at anytime.... And your defence minister has officially said Israel will attack Iranian land. Iran has not made a official statement that it want to nuke Israel.

"Ridicules ……its too absurd for me to even address seriously other then to say, believe me if anything it’s the Arabs and Muslims in the region that need a strong Israel so everyone can concrete on the “great saten” and constantly just focus on building up your arms, as a way to sidetrack from the pitiful state in almost everything most of your nations in the mid east has fallen to "

Haha, how right you are !!!!!!!!!! Do you self see it ? Iran does need Israel, its good for Iran to having a Israel which is not dead but also not strong !

Ohhh... wasn’t it a mistake to make such a statement, in your "politics" game ? p-)

"In truth I agree it would be diffuclt to find and hit your nuke sites Ifor I am sure they are spread out) but you must understand that the "little house" that we hit isnt some little house but rather its a offensive weapon to destroy us and IMO we need to do something about it!! "

It was a example that any attack against 1 cm Iranian land is counted as an attack on Iran as whole. And be sure that Israeli Ofecs are searching and know where major Iranian nuclear sites are, but as you said they are in some cases 1000km away from each other and some are so strong hardened that it would be very difficult to penetrate them with an Israeli attack.

"oh so Iran claims that’s true ,…hahah yeah I thought that was your sources.

Yeah its always the Mossad no matter what in this region ….naah you got nothing so you bring this made up BS "

:lol: Oh can you prove that Iran is responsible for the death of ONE Israeli civilian ? :cantbeli:

What do you want from me ? Every time those politics.... p-)

"Anyways what’s not in doubt is that your nation attacks Israel and I see even you don’t contest that!! "

Hmmm... if we have politics, then noooo.... Iran never attacked Israel, its not even provable ! p-)

"first of all I don’t live in the Muslim world (nor am I your women ) where you can boss me around or order me with this “you are to answer it” bullcrap "

Haha, so you will chose to which questions you answer and not ? That’s too much politics for me, so either you answer all my questions, or there is no need for me to answer to your questions. Its nothing with Muslim or woman it’s a discussion, if you don’t answer you lose...

That is a WHAT IF question connected to Iran, and you must answer it to remain credible.

What IF a "Jewish republic of Israel".... "What would happen if Israel had no nukes and Sharon and all Israeli Rabbis, would say it is against the will of our god to develop or build such weapons, because it will destroy and kill for a long time, the earth, nature and creatures, created by god, its something anti-Jewish and all Israelis agree. In the next year then Sharon come up with a Nuke, what is then ? What will the real Jews say to that in THE JEWISH state ? "

Answer please.

"Secondly when you address the question with a proper factual basis then maybe I will bother a bit more, for now your insistence on the term real Jew and on who you ONLY place that on is factually false!! (Now I believe the third time I mentioned this ). Also Israel is a secular Jewish state….any other term is wrong "

Ah come.... :(

Look then I will make you an other example, being a Jew is not important anymore, then you don’t believe anymore in your Judaism, but to your "Holy Democracy".

"What IF a "democratic republic of Israel".... "What would happen if Israel had no nukes and Sharon and all Israeli politicans, would say it is against the will of our democracy and land to develop or build such weapons, because it will destroy and kill for a long time, the earth, nature and creatures, its something anti-democratic and all Israelis agree. In the next year then Sharon come up with an Nuke, what is then ? What will the Israelis say to that in THE DEMOCRATIC state ? " "

"Anyways I already answered it somewhat (the rabbis approve of self defence!! period!!) "

That’s a what if question and one cant say that we are completely against it and would never do it and then do it few years later without pissing of some people who believe in their word...

@Midav

I hope your friend will also answer to all questions and don’t politic around ;)

[-=P=-]

Yo IDFM203

Can I expect something to come ? p-)

[IDFM203]

-=P=- (btw out of curiosity, what does your screen name signify?)

oops sorry about that ;) …..I actually had finished it the other day but I had saved it for I needed to do a few changes to it and I didn’t have time to do it then.

But boy I am happy to see that you are on pins and needles waiting for my response p-)

With these long debates I think a bit of time should be warranted, dont you think? ;)


Ok onto what you said.....Hehe :lol: now this is getting fun (and indeed very tiresome but fun ;) ).

Ok so the circle continues……..

Listen I am not sure you realize this but the one playing pure politics is you with this ”hey Iran said nothing officially” as if for years your military parades as well as your Islamic fundamentalist gov that some in there have said a goal is to destroy Israel and also how for years you have fought Israel even though Israel never fought you, though your insistence on no “official statements from your defense minister and this injection of made up Mossad dealings against Iran is YOU playing politics (btw on the latter even if true, it doesn’t negate the military prades as well as Islamic fundamentalists goals of destroying Israel).

Here let me break it down for you.

A lot in your Islamic fundamentalist gov. threatens for years to destroy Israel = Israeli defense Minster threatening to destroy those nuke sites that can destroy Israel= Iran again threatening to retaliate by destroying Israel (which I don’t think they can do without nukes)…………either way that’s your total annihilation threat while ours is simply those nuke sites and not Iran itself.

Listen if you want to get serious then don’t treat me like some gullible westerner as if because there is no official statement to the western press, so I guess no one plans to destroy Israel in your Islamic fundamentalist gov. :roll:

My country is no OFFENSIVE threat to yours and certainly not our nukes and we have PROVEN that by (allegedly ;) ) having them for over thirty years and yet never using them.

Btw as for us having statements of you wanting to destroy us, well I have read them throughout the years and besides, our gov. has complied hundreds of them, so when and IF the time would come, they would be release more of them, but for now, please spare me your western political game here of how your hard-line Islamic fundamentalist gov, has never threatened to destroy us or that its not a goals of yours.


As for Mossad and hetbblah, well first, don’t insult my intelligence by asking to prove that Iran helps to attack Israel, I mean till now not even you contested that.

As for Mossad, I do contest it for I know that no matter what its always Mossad in the Muslim world, but even if true, that the Mossad was helping some in YOUR nation against others, well that’s not the same as you helping others, outside of our nation attack us ;)

Ok now let me comment on a few of your off topic absurdities…….



Haha, so you will chose to which questions you answer and not ? That’s too much politics for me, so either you answer all my questions, or there is no need for me to answer to your questions. Its nothing with Muslim or woman it’s a discussion, if you don’t answer you lose...No I do answered your question already, however that’s because I choose to as is normal per debate and not because you say “and you are to answer it” :roll:

if you want to keep up this conversation , then have common respect and curtsey and cut out your “bossey” tone here for again like I said I am not in your Muslim world nor am I your women p-) , for you to boss around.

Its your tone that is the issue here not what you asked.

Now as for what you asked, I don’t know how I can be any more clear, real Jews is all Jews with a Jewish mother!!

Ok now on your revised edition ;) ………..Here is my answer……..


In a secular state as Israel is, in where the words from the rabbis do not dictate policy, nor is Sharon seen as any religious head of state, well then if Sharon would go against the will of the people, and if indeed (huge hypothetically) the will of the people would be not to have nukes for our self defense, and he did so anyways, well then he would probably not get elected the next time around.

Lastly let me comment on this Gem :roll:

and you must answer it to remain credible.
hehe :lol: wow YOU are calling my credibility into question :roll: ….listen I will answer questions when I see they have basis in fact for that is what credible people do, not what you do by making up facts about Israel and then superimposing some absurd hypothetical that has no relevance whatsoever to any realties that Israel has or faces….that’s is you losing credibility and not me losing it.


P.S.

About Midav, before his response, I don’t believe I ever spoke to Midav before, so if he is my friend or not is not something I realized before his last response, but hey if you want to speak through him (which is kind of childish if you ask me ;) ) then that’s your prerogative but don’t assume that everyone that agrees with me is Jewish or a known friend of mine (not that I wouldn’t mind being his friend, but I hope you get my point)

Anyways let me wish you again,

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"But boy I am happy to see that you are on pins and needles waiting for my response

With these long debates I think a bit of time should be warranted, dont you think?"

Its ok but I bring my jobs to a end, don’t like unfinished business :lol:

"Listen I am not sure you realize this but the one playing pure politics is you with this ”hey Iran said nothing officially” as if for years your military parades as well as your Islamic fundamentalist gov that some in there have said a goal is to destroy Israel and also how for years you have fought Israel even though Israel never fought you,"

That’s not so much politics as it looks like, see, Its not in Iran’s interests to waste much power to destroy Israel, one will see that if studying the regional balance in the middle east, it would be totally stupid, but one can find it out for himself, I'm don’t going into detail about the balance in the middle east.

As next, there is simply no official statement that Iran will destroy Israel, what should I do ? If there would be something, ok.... If there would be any plausible reason or something coming out for Iran by destroying Israel, ok ! But there is nothing expect some radicals saying Israel must be destroyed, but those radicals are on the other hand, so radical that they see Nuclear weapons as unislamic and dirty, they would never harm their holy places with such weapons....

Look, I tell you something about radical Iranian Shia Muslims. For them is martyrs death is the highest, they would run in thousands and hundred thousands only equipped with an AK and RPG, against the enemy with, thousands and hundred thousands dying while doing this, but that would be ok for them. So they did early during the war against the 4000 Iraqi tanks and so they would want to do if they wanted to attack Israel. That’s their weapon, not nukes which they see as dirty un-Islamic weapons.

Officials like the Iranian defence minister are careful with their statements and say never that Iran would attack Israel nor with nuclear weapons.

"A lot in your Islamic fundamentalist gov. threatens for years to destroy Israel = Israeli defense Minster threatening to destroy those nuke sites that can destroy Israel= Iran again threatening to retaliate by destroying Israel (which I don’t think they can do without nukes)…………either way that’s your total annihilation threat while ours is simply those nuke sites and not Iran itself. "

No Iran said that Israel will get a heavy counter attack, if it attacks Iran, not that Iran will destroy Israel.

"Listen if you want to get serious then don’t treat me like some gullible westerner as if because there is no official statement to the western press, so I guess no one plans to destroy Israel in your Islamic fundamentalist gov. "

The "western press" observe Iranian media very closely, believe me, if the Mossad would found something from an Iranian government official it would publish it and Israel would be... lets say fine out. Israel would have its reasons.

"My country is no OFFENSIVE threat to yours and certainly not our nukes and we have PROVEN that by (allegedly ) having them for over thirty years and yet never using them. "

Oh yeah, what a proof, its so easy to use nukes, Israel could do it against anyone and it would be all good. It’s the treat that is there and you can deny it, the nuke tipped Jericho with Tehran’s coordinates, still sit in its silo waiting to the button being pushed. Nuclear weapons are ultimate weapons.

"As for Mossad and hetbblah, well first, don’t insult my intelligence by asking to prove that Iran helps to attack Israel, I mean till now not even you contested that. "

No really, can you prove that Iran is behind any Hizbollah attack or any attack generally against Israel ? One can’t even prove that the ship discovered some time ago was really coming from Iran. Prove something, don’t you think that I feel like seen as an idiot, if you ask me what Israel have ever done against Iran ? But I answered it.

"As for Mossad, I do contest it for I know that no matter what its always Mossad in the Muslim world, but even if true, that the Mossad was helping some in YOUR nation against others, well that’s not the same as you helping others, outside of our nation attack us"

Well... look, Iran claim Israel has helped the MKO based in Iraq and killed many CIVIALIAN Iranians by the mossad during the revolution, ok ? In and outside the country, but this is not important, an attack is an attack. End of this story. :roll:

"if you want to keep up this conversation , then have common respect and curtsey and cut out your “bossey” tone here for again like I said I am not in your Muslim world nor am I your women , for you to boss around. "

Oh, didn’t realise that I played the boss p-) , but what do you expect if someone frequently don’t answer to a question and many times talk about things (real Jews) which are completely off-topic and uninteresting here. This was no fun, to say at least p-)

Ah and don’t come with Muslim world and woman’s to me, it’s not my business, especially if you want me to not playing the boss...

"In a secular state as Israel is, in where the words from the rabbis do not dictate policy, nor is Sharon seen as any religious head of state, well then if Sharon would go against the will of the people, and if indeed (huge hypothetically) the will of the people would be not to have nukes for our self defense, and he did so anyways, well then he would probably not get elected the next time around."

Hehe didn’t you realize that this is a hypothetical question ? But hey you answered it mainly, so you are on right way.

So Sharon would maybe not getting elected anymore and maybe even the nukes would be destroyed if Sharon would be gone, if they would be dirty anti-Democracy weapons for Israel.

Now let us apply this on Iran, the highest clerical leader to the Iranian Shias which is also the leader of the country, say that nuclear weapons are anti-Islamic (Islam is all what his position is based on). Next year he would build them, the Muslims would be pissed off, and he is not someone who can be simply elected out, the whole system would crash.

But it comes more worse, he can’t say that it was a mistake by him, because even the FOUNDER if the Islamic republic who died already, said that nuclear weapons are dirty and un-Islamic !!!

Do you and all the others slowly understand the meanings and dimensions here ?

"Qom, Iran -- In a surprising development, Iran's hard-line clerical establishment,

which had bitterly resisted American pressure to open the country's nuclear facilities to inspection, is using its religious influence to rally support for an agreement with the West to foreswear the development of nuclear weapons.

Led by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the nation's "supreme leader," Iranian clerics have repeatedly declared that Islam forbids the development and use of all weapons of mass destruction.

"The Islamic Republic of Iran, based on its fundamental religious and legal beliefs, would never resort to the use of weapons of mass destruction," Khamenei said recently. "In contrast to the propaganda of our enemies, fundamentally we are against any production of weapons of mass destruction in any form." "

http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/10/31/21229-1.DTL

Now I can say... Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Its ok but I bring my jobs to a end, don’t like unfinished business :lol: hehe :lol: ok but you should know by now that these debates are usually endless with no end in sight….hey just like the conflict itself ;)

Seriously these are long debates and as you see I do enjoy engaging in them but due to their length, I need time to respond so I suggest you don’t assume it will be that day.



That’s not so much politics as it looks like, see, Its not in Iran’s interests to waste much power to destroy Israel, one will see that if studying the regional balance in the middle east, it would be totally stupid, but one can find it out for himself, I'm don’t going into detail about the balance in the middle east. you see I understand all that and indeed I understand the so called balance of powers in the region and all the arguments from it, however what all this fails to take into account, and why your nation is worrisome, is the Islamic fundamentalists in power and their religious ideology doesn’t have correlation with what makes sense in a western geopolitical sense :roll:


As next, there is simply no official statement that Iran will destroy Israel, what should I do ? If there would be something, ok.... If there would be any plausible reason or something coming out for Iran by destroying Israel, ok ! But there is nothing expect some radicals saying Israel must be destroyed, but those radicals are on the other hand, so radical that they see Nuclear weapons as unislamic and dirty, they would never harm their holy places with such weapons.... those radicals have HUGE power in your nation!!

Like you admit, a lot do say it, and that what I said before, asking me for official statements is absurd for I am not foolish enough to think that Iran would publicly state that with their nukes they will destroy Israel, however even as you admit, a destruction is a goal amongst many from you and the only way to do that is with nukes…..

As for unislamic and dirty, oh please…. :roll:

This is from Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani, who, as the Chairman of the Assembly to Discern the Interests of the State, is the Islamic Republic’s number two man after Ayatollah Ali Khameneh’


One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran.

for the article clcik Here (http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm)

anywas besides this, again Iran religious leaders has been calling for the destruction of Israel for years, which intails killing millions of innocent people, hmm is that also unislamic or unholy or becouse a few people calimed for the benifit of the west that ONLY with nukes are they unislamic, so we need to be gullible to assume that he is is what everyone there belives :roll:



Officials like the Iranian defence minister are careful with their statements and say never that Iran would attack Israel nor with nuclear weapons. yes they are careful however he uses words like harsh or that they will respond like no Israeli politician ever dreamed about, or when they are asked if they will use nukes, they say a bunch of crap and end off with time will tell….

Your defense minister is indeed smart now for the world is watching so he uses words carefully….so that means we need to be gullible like other western nations that are NOT threatened by Iran’s nukes like we are :roll: I dont think so!!


No Iran said that Israel will get a heavy counter attack, if it attacks Iran, not that Iran will destroy Israel. no it was hinted very clearly….secondly so for years you have military parades with death to Israel themes, your Islamic fundamentalist gov. also has that total destruction goal of Israel, so we go out and destroy those sites ONLY, and yet instead of you going after our sites, your threats are at Israel.

I say it’s the destruction of Israel that your threats are at, you say not, but either way your threats to us are a whole lot a lot bigger then our threats to you.


The "western press" observe Iranian media very closely, believe me, if the Mossad would found something from an Iranian government official it would publish it and Israel would be... lets say fine out. Israel would have its reasons. first of all the mossad doesn’t publish anything.

Secondly there have been over the years reports of public threats for the destruction of Israel from your gov.

I don’t think even you denied that.


Oh yeah, what a proof, its so easy to use nukes, Israel could do it against anyone and it would be all good. It’s the treat that is there and you can deny it, the nuke tipped Jericho with Tehran’s coordinates, still sit in its silo waiting to the button being pushed. Nuclear weapons are ultimate weapons. exactly it is so easy to use it if we wanted but the proof is that for over thirty years we havent used it once….that’s proof of our defensive intentions ONLY!!.

We have proven we are no threat to use them offensively for we have had them (allegedly ;) ) for decades but yet haven’t used them at all!!.


No really, can you prove that Iran is behind any Hizbollah attack or any attack generally against Israel ? One can’t even prove that the ship discovered some time ago was really coming from Iran. Prove something, don’t you think that I feel like seen as an idiot, if you ask me what Israel have ever done against Iran ? But I answered it. one second here, so you want me to bring you intelligence reports :roll: …..gees this isn’t some official foreign policy forum here, I don’t have access, and even if I did, I sure as hell wouldn’t post it here, but all indication from Israeli press and other world press for years, based on intelligence reports and integration of suspects and other sorces, they all have conclusively proven that Iran is behind that ship and a lot of hetsballh traning and arms shipments.



Well... look, Iran claim Israel has helped the MKO based in Iraq and killed many CIVIALIAN Iranians by the mossad during the revolution, ok ? do you have any any reliable sources other then Iran’s official claims to back that up?

Also what kind of help do you allege the Mossad gave them??


Now let us apply this on Iran, the highest clerical leader to the Iranian Shias which is also the leader of the country, say that nuclear weapons are anti-Islamic (Islam is all what his position is based on). Next year he would build them, the Muslims would be pissed off, and he is not someone who can be simply elected out, the whole system would crash. Bull****!!! so why aren’t Muslims pissed now that you are already building nuclear weapons????? :roll:



But it comes more worse, he can’t say that it was a mistake by him, because even the FOUNDER if the Islamic republic who died already, said that nuclear weapons are dirty and un-Islamic !!! wow so he said something to the gullible western press…..ok now :roll:

Gees so you expect me to be fooled by the whole politcs of this “public speeches” game here? :roll:



Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"(btw out of curiosity, what does your screen name signify?) "

The P has some special meanings for me, ah and Arabs don’t have the letter P and some can’t even speak it ;)

Out of curiosity do the Jews have the letter P or do they use it much ? I don’t think so, or ?

"hehe ok but you should know by now that these debates are usually endless with no end in sight….hey just like the conflict itself "

Right, but sometimes the other side has no arguments anymore, but with some "enemy’s" one must fight long until that point comes. p-) ;)

"you see I understand all that and indeed I understand the so called balance of powers in the region and all the arguments from it, however what all this fails to take into account, and why your nation is worrisome, is the Islamic fundamentalists in power and their religious ideology doesn’t have correlation with what makes sense in a western geopolitical sense "

But you make a mistake, as these so called Islamic fundamentalists are also humans, now at the top, they smell the money and might and begin to like it, they don’t want to lose that for a foolish attack against a small country. With no politics you must see that... Those real Islamic fundamentalists, are poor and not at the power.

"those radicals have HUGE power in your nation!! "

As said above, I don’t think that they have really so much might in Iran.

"As for unislamic and dirty, oh please….

This is from Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani, who, as the Chairman of the Assembly to Discern the Interests of the State, is the Islamic Republic’s number two man after Ayatollah Ali Khameneh’ "

So what “oh please” ? Didn’t we have a example for this ?

This Rafsanjani is a billionaire and was former president but now he is not in the position to do anything with the Iranian armed forces, he is only a spokesmen and not in the ruling government.

Believe me now when I say that I did know that you would come with Rafsanjani. :lol:

"nywas besides this, again Iran religious leaders has been calling for the destruction of Israel for years, which intails killing millions of innocent people"

No Iran always say it want to destroy the STATE Israel, not all Jews, I said the reason why Iran don’t think that Israel has an existence right in its current form.

Lady's and Gentleman... the Iranian President:

http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2000/August/Images/jews.jpg

"yes they are careful however he uses words like harsh or that they will respond like no Israeli politician ever dreamed about, or when they are asked if they will use nukes, they say a bunch of crap and end off with time will tell…. "

Lets say Israel get attacked by 1000 Shahab-3 in one week which all hit their target, wouldn’t that be an unbelievable and never seen response ?

"no it was hinted very clearly….secondly so for years you have military parades with death to Israel themes, your Islamic fundamentalist gov. also has that total destruction goal of Israel, so we go out and destroy those sites ONLY, and yet instead of you going after our sites, your threats are at Israel. "

The same is said about America, but do you really think Iran is going to attack America ?

"Secondly there have been over the years reports of public threats for the destruction of Israel from your gov.

I don’t think even you denied that. "

I deny that Iran has said that it want to attack and destroy Israel and that’s the end of the story.

"exactly it is so easy to use it if we wanted but the proof is that for over thirty years we havent used it once….that’s proof of our defensive intentions ONLY!!. "

You don’t get it, one cant simply use nukes, its an ultimate weapon, if Israel attacks someone but cant win conventionally it will use nuclear weapons, and that’s a very big threat my friend.

"one second here, so you want me to bring you intelligence reports …..gees this isn’t some official foreign policy forum here, I don’t have access, and even if I did, I sure as hell wouldn’t post it here, but all indication from Israeli press and other world press for years, based on intelligence reports and integration of suspects and other sorces, they all have conclusively proven that Iran is behind that ship and a lot of hetsballh traning and arms shipments. "

:lol:

Look, did you get it ?

You want a proof from me that Israel has indirectly attacked Iran but on the other hand when I ask you to proof that Iran is responsible for one Hizbollah killed Israeli civilian, you can’t prove it.

These things are not official if one side do it openly he gets problems. You don’t want to accept Iranian claims, ok, but don’t expect me to accept Israel’s claims that Iran use proxies to attack it. Both are secrets, not for the public. Ah and there is still no independent proof that the Ship did come from Iran, it’s only an Israeli claim, but because its sounds plausible some Medias take it as fact.

"do you have any any reliable sources other then Iran’s official claims to back that up?

Also what kind of help do you allege the Mossad gave them?? "

Help is help either by 1 mio $ or 1000 AK's and for the rest see above.

"Bull****!!! so why aren’t Muslims pissed now that you are already building nuclear weapons????? "

What are you saying ? Iranian Shias still believe in the words of the founder of IR Iran, that Nukes are unislamic and the Iranian nuclear program is completely civil it’s not a weapon program.

"wow so he said something to the gullible western press…..ok now

Gees so you expect me to be fooled by the whole politics of this “public speeches” game here?"

He didn’t say that to the western press he said that to the Iranian people and it was translated, so easy isit ;) p-)

[-=P=-]

Come ID, its some kind of new challenge for me to talk with Israelis, show what you can, show it to all of us ! p-) woot

PS: Don’t think I'm one of those who kick the guy who is already on the ground in his head, but I have hopes that you don’t have shown your real power, show me the 100% IDFM203 ! :) p-)

[IDFM203]

hmmm interesting :roll: .....ok please check your PM box before you come in here with this absurdity.

Like I said there, I unlike you, engage in many other topics besides just this one and like I also said I did not forget about this one, however this has turned into a endless debate and as such while I do enjoy it, I wont be beholden to one thread.

I will get back to it, just it wont be now.

lastly you didn’t kick me on the ground, though I admire your typical Muslim false arrogance p-) :roll: , where you know how you think you won all the wars ( rofl ) so I guess here too :roll: , its not like you disproved any of my ideological arguments, simply where left with you wanting poof (of statements and things like that) and like I said that takes time and research, something which I am not going to do now.

Anyways go read my PM for believe me, by page 5 of this thread, this conversation is only between me and you, so your public challenge isn’t really being heard by any others and for me hell I am up for it, just it wont be now.

But yes I will get back to this thread.

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

I didn’t say you were on the ground, I only wanted to say with this that, if you don’t can then you must not. There is every time a chance that you maybe have forgotten it. This was only a funny way to show what I mean.

It’s also not because the public why I'm talking with you here, it’s between me and you and its some kind of challenge for me.

Ah and don’t come with Muslim this and Muslim that, you don’t know if I'm a Muslim and it don’t matters here.

Ok then let’s see what you bring in the next weeks.

[786mine]

Israel should NOT even think of any joy ride in Iran. Big mistake for Iran and for the world. Not that I am scared, but Israel has no justification AT ALL to strike other nation's nuclear facilities based on suspecion when it has not cleared itself of its nuclear status. Some food for thought. That was my 2 cents, and I am not going to post on this topic.

[IDFM203]

I saw your name today so it reminded me of that old thread :D

Ok so let’s get back into it ;)

Ok so I read your last response and I see when I bring you quotes from Islamic fundamentalist leaders about their offensive intentions to wipe out Israel and even with nukes (and there is more that I have read over the years, but again the research it takes to find it is time consuming), you counter that they are rich and they don’t want to lose power and well while I can understand that, to me I find that not reassuring for me to sleep peacefully as if all their threats and their death to Israel parades that they do have and their threats for years to wipe out Israel by some Islamic fundamentalists that are in power (and IMO a general attitude amongst most Islamic fundamentalist that are in Iran, which are a lot) is all for naught for its just said by some that want to maintain power as you maintain, well frankly that’s no guarantee and its not something we can afford to take a chance on and secondly I just don’t buy it.

I say again, it’s your Islamic fundamentalist ideology and the years of some that have publicly expressed their desired to destroy Israel, that is a offensive threat to us.

Secondly you keep on saying Israel is a offensive threat to you with our nukes, but yet I tell you, you have no bases for that, for A, none in our government ever threatened to destroy Iran (as you yourself admit people in your have done to Israel), nor B, have we ever used them for over 30 years that we have them.

We have proven we are no offensive threat to use them.

Thirdly all we ever threatened to do was destroy those nuke sites that can be used by you to fulfill the goal of many in your society to destroy us, and yet you want to respond by killing hundreds of thousands or millions of us, well to me I still don’t see how it’s a parallel threat to what we have threatened

You then counter the same is said about America, well I think that Israel in land that Islamic fundamentalists consider to be Muslim only land, well IMO that holds a much more serious standing in regards to which threats are more serious to be taken seriously or which are just mere posturing.

Lastly before I respond to your off topic line, with regards to Iran’s help of hetbblah, I maintain they have been doing it for years, I have read over the years many reports that site intelligence reports that prove it, but I think its pointless doing the research for your just going to deny that those reports are legitimate, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

And yes the same for the Mossad, I maintain that even if we did help out, it was a very insignificant amount and certainly nowhere near on the level of the help that Iran gives to hetbllah.


So I guess you can take solace that I didn’t prove it and I know you didn’t prove what you were saying, to me the Iranian help wasn’t the crux of my arguments against their nukes so I don’t really care to take the time to prove it (even though I firmly believe it)


But anyways I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, for like I said before, this isn’t here my official job or anything like that and the time it would take to do all the research would just take a very long time and its not something I am willing to do being that these debates are just a hobby of mine (of which I do enjoy)



The P has some special meanings for me, ah and Arabs don’t have the letter P and some can’t even speak it ;)

Out of curiosity do the Jews have the letter P or do they use it much ? I don’t think so, or ?
yes we do have the letter that makes the sound that p makes...and it is used.

And yes I know very well there is no p in Arabic, hell it further shows there was no such things as Palestinians p-) (ok ok calm down ;) ,,,,,yeah I know the Arabs in the west bank and gaza exists, just I don’t recognize that there was ever a Palestinian state or anything like that before for them)

Anyways yes I know the way they say it is fhalestin (sp?)

Lastly, I know you hinted to me that you might be Iranian before, to be honest I always thought you were European and I must say I still do, so just to clear up, are you Iranian? (if not then what?)

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

Ah an answer ;)

"Ok so I read your last response and I see when I bring you quotes from Islamic fundamentalist leaders about their offensive intentions to wipe out Israel and even with nukes (and there is more that I have read over the years, but again the research it takes to find it is time consuming), you counter that they are rich and they don’t want to lose power and well while I can understand that, to me I find that not reassuring for me to sleep peacefully as if all their threats and their death to Israel parades that they do have and their threats for years to wipe out Israel by some Islamic fundamentalists that are in power (and IMO a general attitude amongst most Islamic fundamentalist that are in Iran, which are a lot) is all for naught for its just said by some that want to maintain power as you maintain, well frankly that’s no guarantee and its not something we can afford to take a chance on and secondly I just don’t buy it.

I say again, it’s your Islamic fundamentalist ideology and the years of some that have publicly expressed their desired to destroy Israel, that is a offensive threat to us. "

I say it again, Iranian officials said Israel has no existence right in its current form and so must be "destroyed" if you want to call it so. But the same said Nukes are unislamic and Iran won’t build any. The most important part is that Iran never said that "Iran will destroy Israel", if you find something like that then we have an offensive threat.

"Secondly you keep on saying Israel is a offensive threat to you with our nukes, but yet I tell you, you have no bases for that, for A, none in our government ever threatened to destroy Iran (as you yourself admit people in your have done to Israel), nor B, have we ever used them for over 30 years that we have them. "

The problem is that Israel has threaten Iran to attack it, might it be only Nuclear installations, if Iran would counter attack with missiles at lets say Dimona or very massively, Israel could use its Nukes and that a huge threat. It like someone would say we give you a box into your head, but when you box back and give a kick that he falls, he would take his gun and shot you straight into you head.

"Thirdly all we ever threatened to do was destroy those nuke sites that can be used by you to fulfill the goal of many in your society to destroy us"

One remark, most normal Iranians are pro US and so Israel, they look at the cool things that come from America and think America is the greatest. A much smaller number of Iranians are Islamists and want to se Israel disappears, because of their Islamic friends, the Palestinians. Both are... lets say "stupid".

"Lastly before I respond to your off topic line, with regards to Iran’s help of hetbblah, I maintain they have been doing it for years, I have read over the years many reports that site intelligence reports that prove it, but I think its pointless doing the research for your just going to deny that those reports are legitimate, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. "

Iran helped Hizbollah no questions, I only want to see a proof that this helping caused the death of one Israeli civilian, the Hizbollah has a few "wings" and it is more an army and a political party than a terrorist group like the Hamaz for example.

"And yes the same for the Mossad, I maintain that even if we did help out, it was a very insignificant amount and certainly nowhere near on the level of the help that Iran gives to hetbllah. "

We don’t know, but as said there is also no proof that Iran’s help for the Hizbollah did kill one Israeli civilian.

"Palestinians (ok ok calm down ,,,,,yeah I know the Arabs in the west bank and gaza exists, just I don’t recognize that there was ever a Palestinian state or anything like that before for them)

Anyways yes I know the way they say it is fhalestin (sp?) "

Hehe they are also called Felestinians, Arabs change the P often with F. But sometimes its not funny anymore when especially older Arabs speak out your name with F ;)

"Lastly, I know you hinted to me that you might be Iranian before, to be honest I always thought you were European and I must say I still do, so just to clear up, are you Iranian? (if not then what?) "

Didn’t want to talk about that because one can be more objective without knowing that but ok, I'm originally Iranian.

[IDFM203]

Ah an answer ;) Funny you should say this, for if you look at the dates, I actually answered you over two weeks ago, so your little comment here if anything should be said by me ;)

Anyways on to the real issues………


I say it again, Iranian officials said Israel has no existence right in its current form and so must be "destroyed" if you want to call it so. ok so here you say we cant exist and must be destroyed, boy so how do you want me to interpret this for it seems pretty clear to me.

You know what, let me give you the full opportunity here to explain in details what you mean by destroy and not accepting our existence? and how you see it happening? or how you want it to happen?


The most important part is that Iran never said that "Iran will destroy Israel", if you find something like that then we have an offensive threat. Now like I said before, this is no official foreign policy forum nor is this my full time job here, I simply come here for I enjoy the conversations and debate and as such I don’t have the time to do all the research to fine the quotes……wait wait, you knew I would say that before, right? ;) , well this time however your out of luck today p-)

Thanks to another member here, I found a site where it has compiled just some of the quotes from people in your government where it has called for the destruction of Israel.

There are so many in this link, so I will just highlight a few quotes, though I advise you to read them all (and I advise others to also read them)


First let me start with a pic..
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/iran/imgc/shihab.jpg

“ISRAEL MUST BE ERADICATED FROM THE ANNALS OF HISTORY”

THE TEXT WICH APPEARED ON THE “SHIHAB-3” MISSILE
LAUNCHERDURING MILITARY PARADE IN TEHERAN

Now for just some of the quotes by various top members in your government.

“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

“Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”

““ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “

“the day is not far when we shall rise to discover that Iran's ideology has come true and the Zionist regime with all its sins has been removed from the pages of history ”.

“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”

For a lot more and who said these quotes and where they said it, click Here (http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/iran/shihab_11_03.htm)



The problem is that Israel has threaten Iran to attack it, might it be only Nuclear installations, if Iran would counter attack with missiles at lets say Dimona or very massively, Israel could use its Nukes and that a huge threat. Again, Israel ONLY threatened to attack those nuke sites that Iran can use to destroy Israel, a offensive threat that your nation has made against Israel for years and years now.

Big difference in the level of threats, whereas our threat is simply military targets only and defensive in intention and yours are our whole nation and its very existence, a threat which we have never made against your nation.


One remark, most normal Iranians are pro US and so Israel, they look at the cool things that come from America and think America is the greatest. A much smaller number of Iranians are Islamists and want to se Israel disappears, because of their Islamic friends, the Palestinians. Both are... lets say "stupid".
You know I actually recognize that in Iran, not everyone hates America and Israel and indeed we do have some “friends” there (I actually posted this article a while back (http://debka.com/article.php?aid=746) that you might find interesting), however the people that are in power, whether they are a minority in your society or not, or even if they are much smaller as you assert, makes no difference, for it is they that are in power and it is their Islamic fundamentalist suicidal offensive threat and ideology to destroy Israel that is a offensive threat to us and must be takes seriously.


We don’t know, but as said there is also no proof that Iran’s help for the Hizbollah did kill one Israeli civilian. no even you assert that Iran helps hetbblah (and we know it helps train and equip them), and well Iran has in the past targeted and killed Israeli civilians

Anyways like I said, we will have to agree to disagree here or actually from your previous comment, I see again that you really don’t dispute Iran’s help to hetbllah anyway so there really isn’t any need for me to even go further in this.


Didn’t want to talk about that because one can be more objective without knowing that but ok, I'm originally Iranianok I can understand your reluctance to say who you are, but in truth I am glad you did (if its true ;) ), for no disrespect to the Europeans here, but it gets a bit absurd after a while to debate them when they don’t live what they are talking about nor do they have any roots in what they discuss, that is why I enjoy talking to you, (and also the member “one” who btw we have a very good “relationship” on this forum) so I am glad you are Iranian in this debate ;)

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"ok so here you say we cant exist and must be destroyed, boy so how do you want me to interpret this for it seems pretty clear to me."

That with destroyed is a word, one could also say the Israeli regime must be removed or be gone, if something has no existence right in its form, then also the word destroyed can be used without meaning that Iran would destroy Israel as the land and peoples and Iran thinks so.

"You know what, let me give you the full opportunity here to explain in details what you mean by destroy and not accepting our existence? and how you see it happening? or how you want it to happen? "

First my standpoint is not known, I only say how the current Iranian regime thinks. Then Israel does officially occupy Palestinian territory and don’t want an Palestinian state, if Israel would take one part and give the Palestinians the other, the situation could change, Iran officially accept Jews and want that Palestinians, Jews and Christians live together in this land.

"There are so many in this link, so I will just highlight a few quotes, though I advise you to read them all (and I advise others to also read them)


First let me start with a pic.. :"


“ISRAEL MUST BE ERADICATED FROM THE ANNALS OF HISTORY”

Iran don’t accept the Israeli regime, so these things can be said.



“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

Yes that’s right, as Israeli strategy would change, or not ? But you somehow missed the part of the speech in which he said that a Nuke would only harm the Islamic world. Next, this Rafsanjani is not part of the current government, he is in an opposed party to the current government and only the head of a council.


Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”

Yes that was said by the Iranian Ambassador in Arabic Syria which biggest enemy is Israel. He can say as Iran doesn’t accept Israel existence right in its current form. Some 50 years ago that state was called Palestine and that for several hundred years. If you look closely he only said the Palestinian state not the Palestinians, that has an reason as the President of Iran said that here:

"We believe that all of Palestine's inhabitants – Moslems, Christians and Jews together can decide democratically on the sovereign framework under which they wish to co-exist.”

Something more interesting is that he said “IF ARAB STATE UNITE”, it only shows more that Iran don’t see Israel as its own problem but the problem of the Arabs and Palestinians.


“ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “

As said Iran doesn’t recognize Israel in its current form, there was never an Israel which the current Iranian regime would accept and if we now forget about the names (It is simply called Palestine in the Islamic world and that for several hundred of years) we have again this quote from the Iranian President:

"We believe that all of X's inhabitants – Moslems, Christians and Jews together can decide democratically on the sovereign framework under which they wish to co-exist.”


“the day is not far when we shall rise to discover that Iran's ideology has come true and the Zionist regime with all its sins has been removed from the pages of history ”.

Now that even from a newspaper, but I don’t see anything new in it, one can say it how he wants it all runs to the basic statement that Iran don’t recognize Israel and so it must be removed. Till now there also was no Israeli government which the current Iranian regime would recognize so it could simply be said that Iran don’t recognize any Israeli state, new Jewish likely.


“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”

Again wiped out the map, removed, destroyed all words which are connected with, "Iran don’t recognize Israel".

"For a lot more and who said these quotes and where they said it, click Here "

Yeah I know that site and there is much, but in all texts they are so careful that I don’t see anything more than Iran don’t recognize Israel and what is now recognized must be gone/removed. Tell be did you find in one of those texts that Iran will wipe Israel out of the map ?


"Again, Israel ONLY threatened to attack those nuke sites that Iran can use to destroy Israel, a offensive threat that your nation has made against Israel for years and years now. "

Sorry I don’t see any offensive or threats I see Iran saying Nukes are bad, I don’t even see that Iran would say that Israel should be removed BY Iran.

"Big difference in the level of threats, whereas our threat is simply military targets only and defensive in intention and yours are our whole nation and its very existence, a threat which we have never made against your nation. "

Do you want to say that Iran didn’t say that nukes are unislamic and that Iran don’t want and could get any because of that ? But as said attack is attack in my viewpoint, that is so in the world, since ever.

"whether they are a minority in your society or not, or even if they are much smaller as you assert, makes no difference, for it is they that are in power and it is their Islamic fundamentalist suicidal offensive threat and ideology to destroy Israel that is a offensive threat to us and must be takes seriously. "

Look even in the "Islamist Fundamentalist and suicidal" government there are powers left and right, conservative and reformist, I say if again you wont find any current leaders posing any threats to Israel expect that it is not recognized by Iran and should be removed (not will or will be done by Iran).

"no even you assert that Iran helps hetbblah (and we know it helps train and equip them), and well Iran has in the past targeted and killed Israeli civilians "

Yes I don’t say that Iran didn’t helped Hizbollah, there you right. But there is no proof that Israel killed one Israeli civilian if you have a proof please show it.

I say it again there are different powers in the Hizbollah, Hizbollah is a recognized political party in the recognized state Lebanon and has an own military in this country.

PS: I seldom had such a long debate without flaming ;)

Shalom and be Dorood p-)

[Moledet]

Israel should NOT even think of any joy ride in Iran. Big mistake for Iran and for the world. Not that I am scared, but Israel has no justification AT ALL to strike other nation's nuclear facilities based on suspecion when it has not cleared itself of its nuclear status. Some food for thought. That was my 2 cents, and I am not going to post on this topic.
While the "good old US" does have justification to bomb any country (ahm...Iraq) that is suspecious to have unconventional weapons even though it is not a threat to US's existance, while US has the largest stock in the world of this weapons.

Ofcourse Israel can and Israel will attack.

P.S. You are a hypocrate.

[Moledet]

Edited: Double post.

[UoUo]

שמישהו יסביר לו שפלסטינה זה לא פלסטין1!!!

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203
That with destroyed is a word, one could also say the Israeli regime must be removed or be gone, One can say all sorts of things, however what I have seen been said, has been much more then merely just the Israeli regime being removed. So what one can say or not is moot point, however what THEY are saying for the most part doesn’t simply seem to imply only the Israeli regime.

They say Israel mostly and don’t only refer to its regime.


if something has no existence right in its form, then also the word destroyed can be used without meaning that Iran would destroy Israel as the land and peoples and Iran thinks so. No it cant, no existence means no existence and nothing else!!

they simply say Israel has no right to exists and they leave it at that and thats quite clear what that means!!

Its quite clear they don’t accept Israel’s existence with their offensive rhetoric as I showed you, and it is clear that they harbor wishes to destroy us.


First my standpoint is not known, I only say how the current Iranian regime thinks. Then Israel does officially occupy Palestinian territory and don’t want an Palestinian state, if Israel would take one part and give the Palestinians the other, the situation could change, Iran officially accept Jews and want that Palestinians, Jews and Christians live together in this land. No that seems to be YOUR position for from what I read I don’t see how Iran views it as such.

I repeat some of the quotes from people in Iran’s government.

“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

“Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”

““ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “

“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”

Now in those quotes nowhere do I see your interoperation of views but rather it’s clear that the goal is Israel destroyed and the Pali state in PLACE of all of the Jews in ALL of Israel.



“ISRAEL MUST BE ERADICATED FROM THE ANNALS OF HISTORY”

Iran don’t accept the Israeli regime, so these things can be said. Again YOU say its just regime, but here and in other quotes its clear that its all of Israel and not limited to just its regime.


“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

Yes that’s right, as Israeli strategy would change, or not ? But you somehow missed the part of the speech in which he said that a Nuke would only harm the Islamic world. Yes he said only damage it as if meaning it won’t destroy us so don’t worry, though it will destroy Israel.

Here is the whole quote again “If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth, but [such a bomb] would only do damage to the Islamic World

His “don’t worry that it will only do damage the Islamic world” is to say to Arabs that don’t worry the nukes won’t destroy you as it will Israel.

That’s very clear form the paragraph that he spoke.

As for our strategy, well we don’t have any imperialistic strategy and certainly not one for Iran, for again we haven’t attacked or invaded Iran in all of our modern existence.

Lastly on this, he did say that Iran would use nukes!! That’s very clear from there



Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”

Yes that was said by the Iranian Ambassador in Arabic Syria which biggest enemy is Israel. He can say as Iran doesn’t accept Israel existence right in its current form. he said clearly Israel will disappear from the map and a pali state will be in PLACE of Israel

That is quite clear and nowhere there do I see where it simply says its currant form or words like that.

All I see is YOUR spin on things.


Something more interesting is that he said “IF ARAB STATE UNITE”, it only shows more that Iran don’t see Israel as its own problem but the problem of the Arabs and Palestinians. oh don’t get me wrong, I understand that Iran has other enemies, though its your Islamic fundamentalist suicidal ideology and those in power in Iran that have that ideology is what is an offensive threat to Israel being that its clear that they want to see Israel destroyed.



“ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “

As said Iran doesn’t recognize Israel in its current form, and again its ONLY you that keeps saying that.,

No where have I see where even if Israel pulled out of the west bank and gaze, would Iran be happy with that.



“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”

Again wiped out the map, removed, destroyed all words which are connected with, "Iran don’t recognize Israel".Your getting totally absurd now (I don’t mean this to be a flame but man this really is getting absurd now)……I mean go read this again and seriously revaluate YOUR interpretations for IMO its quite that your pulling them out of thin air.


Tell be did you find in one of those texts that Iran will wipe Israel out of the map ? Yes the quotes above show how that is a goal.


Do you want to say that Iran didn’t say that nukes are unislamic and that Iran don’t want and could get any because of that ? But as said attack is attack in my viewpoint, that is so in the world, since ever. No I saw one person claim they are un Islamic and I believe that was ONLY for political posturing.

Secondly they build them, they have quotes where they say they will use them, not to mention in general quotes of the destruction of Israel and the only way is to use nukes, well its obvious that Iran’s intentions with its Nuclear program are offensive towards us.

Oh and I accept an attack is an attack, though at the same time I also accept a proportional response and if we did attack those nuke site, to respond by wiping out Israel or killing hundreds of thousands of Israelis, as Iran claims it will do, well that is not an proportional response and it further shows how erratic and how irrational Iran is.

I mean Iran attacks us all the time through hetsballh, though even I would admit that if we retaliated and killed thousands and thousands of Iranians, that would be wrong for its not a proportioned response.


Look even in the "Islamist Fundamentalist and suicidal" government there are powers left and right, conservative and reformist, I say if again you wont find any current leaders posing any threats to Israel expect that it is not recognized by Iran and should be removed (not will or will be done by Iran). Well obviously we disagree on what I think is quite clear from just some of their quotes on their true intentions and goal with regards to us.



Yes I don’t say that Iran didn’t helped Hizbollah, there you right. But there is no proof that Israel killed one Israeli civilian if you have a proof please show it. so are you denying that they help train and fund hetballh and supply arms to them and with all that hebllah has killed Israeli civilians? (Well we know they have killed, though your contesting that it wasn’t with Iran’s help?)

And if you do deny then we will have to agree to disagree on that.


PS: I seldom had such a long debate without flaming ;) hehe true :lol: , though with me I try to adhere to the Principe of treat people how they treat me and I believe since I have been on this forum I have held to that principle and well even though we disagree on things, I haven’t seen you take it to the extreme flame level and as such I am trying not to as well.

Anyways it serves no purpose, I come to this site for I enjoy debate and opposing viewpoints, I mean if I didn’t I wouldn’t be on this site, and you defiantly are an opposing view point, so as long as its civil, believe it or not, I actually enjoy this discourse here ;)


Shalom and be Dorood p-) hehe :D yes Dorood and Shalom to you as well :D

(That’s about the only word in farsi I know ;) )

[KB]

As the US should remember from the Liberty incident in June 1967, Israel will do what it considers in its best interest, regardless of what any other nation or group of nations think.

Also, there is significant internal dissent within Iran; much of the early info about Iranian nuclear research came from them. Who's to say the form a strike takes necessarily has to be from the air?

[W(M)D]

As the US should remember from the Liberty incident in June 1967, Israel will do what it considers in its best interest, regardless of what any other nation or group of nations think.

It takes after the world's policeman (the USA), who decided that it would invade Iraq (with minimal world backing only being supported from the UK). You can see why Israel & USA are allied, they each carry out their actions regardless unilaterally in their own best interest (that is what the elected govt in each country is there for, to make those decisions).

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"They say Israel mostly and don’t only refer to its regime. "

Israel or not don’t really matters what is important is that Iran's standpoint is that it want a country there are Jews, Moslems and Christians can live together and that democratically what means that everyone would have the same rights.

A repeat there can’t be an Israel for Iran; Israel was formed some 55 years ago by occupying Palestinian land, by doing that this new that can’t exist for Iran. Again Iran never said it will destroy the Jews or Israel/Palestine as land.

"Its quite clear they don’t accept Israel’s existence with their offensive rhetoric as I showed you, and it is clear that they harbor wishes to destroy us. "

As I said above.

"No that seems to be YOUR position for from what I read I don’t see how Iran views it as such. "

Look knowing about Israel and Iran I can see what their standpoint is, now you think I bring here my opinion but I can tell you that I see the things nearly very different as I say here for Iran (its good that there is Israel, but don’t ask me why).

"Again YOU say its just regime, but here and in other quotes its clear that its all of Israel and not limited to just its regime. "

Israel as the regime is right, Israel as the "state" is right, but Israel as country or land is wrong. Especially wrong is to bring "Jews" into the game as Iran... but hey look at the top there I said it.

"Yes he said only damage it as if meaning it won’t destroy us so doesn’t worry, though it will destroy Israel. "

Ok that COULD be, but it’s actually only a translation we don’t know what this guy (which is AGAIN not part of the government) said.

"Lastly on this, he did say that Iran would use nukes!! That’s very clear from there "

Wrong, or could you bring any quote or source ?

"That is quite clear and nowhere there do I see where it simply says its currant form or words like that.

All I see is YOUR spin on things. "

Look that’s not spin on things; you say Israel is a democratic country; wouldn’t it be only a change of form when Christians and Moslems would together with the Israelis form a democratic parliament and rule the country together? If that’s possible, realistic or not or whatever isn’t important, that simply is what Iran wants and in my view it would be only a change of the current form, not destroyed or wiped out them map and so on.

"No where have I see where even if Israel pulled out of the west bank and gaze, would Iran be happy with that. "

May would not, Iran want a country were Jews Moslems and Christians live together.

"Yes the quotes above show how that is a goal. "

Please I want one, only one quote were it is said that Iran will wip Israel out of the map, only one this time.

"No I saw one person claim they are un Islamic and I believe that was ONLY for political posturing. "

Sorry but that’s really funny... This one person is Khameini who is actually the dictator of Iran, he is the only one who could declare war on Israel, he has the POWER. The guy you quoted is the rich, corrupt, ex-president which currently isn’t part of the government nor was at the time he said that, he is the head of one of many councils in Iran he can say he will destroy the whole world and don’t speak for the Iranian regime nor can give order to only one soldier to do anything.

Come on the situation is clear. Simply look for Rafsanjani and the leader of the IR.Iran Ajatolla Khameini !

"Secondly they build them, they have quotes where they say they will use them,"

Give me one

"not to mention in general quotes of the destruction of Israel and the only way is to use nukes"

In one of your quotes it was said that it would be enough if Arabs unite against Israel, so much to only can be done by nukes.

Next give me a quote that Iran said that it will destroy Israel.

"I also accept a proportional response and if we did attack those nuke site, to respond by wiping out Israel or killing hundreds of thousands of Israelis, as Iran claims it will do,"

Iran never said that it will kill even one Israeli civilian if the nuke site is attacked. If you have a quote, only come with it.

"I mean Iran attacks us all the time through hetsballh, though even I would admit that if we retaliated and killed thousands and thousands of Iranians, that would be wrong for its not a proportioned response. "

We had this, we can complete the discussion about that but I don’t want to make a new discussion form the start.

"Well obviously we disagree on what I think is quite clear from just some of their quotes on their true intentions and goal with regards to us. "

Well you have some quotes and they maybe will appear to some persons as offensive threats to Israel, but appearance don’t matter here, the quotes are solid and " scientific " you can’t make a offensive threat out of that.

"so are you denying that they help train and fund hetballh and supply arms to them and with all that hebllah has killed Israeli civilians? (Well we know they have killed, though your contesting that it wasn’t with Iran’s help?) "

I said Iran did help the army of the Hizbollah and I claim that this army only targets Israel’s military. So Iran is not responsible for a killed civilian. There might be a wing in the Hizbollah which helps the Islamic Jihad directly but I don’t have a proof that there is such a wing and that Iran support that wing.

"Anyways it serves no purpose, I come to this site for I enjoy debate and opposing viewpoints, I mean if I didn’t I wouldn’t be on this site, and you defiantly are an opposing view point, so as long as its civil, believe it or not, I actually enjoy this discourse here"

Its like training for me one can enjoy training ;)

Shalom :D

[UoUo]

LoL

You admmit that Iran think that Israel don't have the right to exist....


So what we should do with you WMD?

[Moledet]

LoL

You admmit that Iran think that Israel don't have the right to exist....


So what we should do with you WMD?
Yeh, he has some funny arguments "the land, the land can exist but the state can't exist", mr. Smartass how will they destroy only the Israeli state without killing the citizens?
BTW, one time they said that if a muslim nation get a nuclear weapon they should launch it on Israel even though it will probably hurt the Palestinians, but that's a price that is worth paying.

Israel has every right to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

[-=P=-]

@Moledet

""the land, the land can exist but the state can't exist", mr. Smartass how will they destroy only the Israeli state without killing the citizens? "

They will not destroy Israel, how about that ?

"BTW, one time they said that if a muslim nation get a nuclear weapon they should launch it on Israel even though it will probably hurt the Palestinians, but that's a price that is worth paying. "

That’s your version of the text of Rafsanjani already stated here ;)

[Moledet]

@Moledet

""the land, the land can exist but the state can't exist", mr. Smartass how will they destroy only the Israeli state without killing the citizens? "

They will not destroy Israel, how about that ?

"BTW, one time they said that if a muslim nation get a nuclear weapon they should launch it on Israel even though it will probably hurt the Palestinians, but that's a price that is worth paying. "

That’s your version of the text of Rafsanjani already stated here ;)
They said numerous times that they want to eliminate Israel totaly, not only when Sharon was the PM but also when other politicians were the leaders.
You can try to put them in good light, but it's impossible, they want nuclear weapon and they want the destruction of Israel, that's no longer an oppinion, it's a fact.

[-=P=-]

Fact is that you will be unable to find anything about, Iranian wants to destroy Israel and Iran wants Nukes, such things were never said and if bring only one quote/source.

Sharon has nothing to do with that.

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203

"They say Israel mostly and don’t only refer to its regime. "

Israel or not don’t really matters what is important is that Iran's standpoint is that it want a country there are Jews, Moslems and Christians can live together and that democratically what means that everyone would have the same rights. and that contradicts………………..(oh and lets be clear all these quotes are not only from Rafsanjani, so none of this later on you claiming that all these quotes are from one man, when they are not)

“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

“Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”

““ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “

“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”

Secondly Muslims and Christians and Jews do live together and in fact all Israeli citizens, even Muslim ones have the right to vote and indeed there are even Muslim parliamentarians.

Can you tell me how many Jewish parliamentarians there are in Iran’s government?


A repeat there can’t be an Israel for Iran; Israel was formed some 55 years ago by occupying Palestinian land, by doing that this new that can’t exist for Iran. Again Iran never said it will destroy the Jews or Israel/Palestine as land. without getting into detail of what happened fifty years ago, the fact is that its clear from the above statements that Iran want to see Muslims in Israel in PLACE of Jews in ALL of Israel.

"No that seems to be YOUR position for from what I read I don’t see how Iran views it as such. "

Look knowing about Israel and Iran I can see what their standpoint is, now you think I bring here my opinion but I can tell you that I see the things nearly very different as I say here for Iran (its good that there is Israel, but don’t ask me why). Again this debate isn’t what you think is good or not, but rather what they think and well its clear from the above statements as well as in general from those in your government that are Islamic fundamentalists, that they do harbor those views (and I believe a lot in the Iranians society also do, and of course some don’t as well, I do admit this)

Lastly “(its good that there is Israel, but don’t ask me why)” thinkking..........hmm……..thinking……….ok here goes…………why? (Hey I couldn’t help myself and something tells me you knew that I would and hoped for it ;) )


"Again YOU say its just regime, but here and in other quotes its clear that its all of Israel and not limited to just its regime. "

Israel as the regime is right, Israel as the "state" is right, but Israel as country or land is wrong. Especially wrong is to bring "Jews" into the game as Iran... but hey look at the top there I said it. wow so now you contradict what you said before, where you said it was only talking about the Israeli regime, now you say its not?? :roll:

Secondly like Moledet said “how will they destroy only the Israeli state without killing the citizens?”

And even if you claim Iran wont destroy us, ok you claim Israel as a country is wrong and that’s what they are saying, so how do you view us existing if its clear that Iran doesn’t view our country that protects us, from existing?

Iran clearly said before that Israel has no right to exist, that’s quite clear as to what it implies about all of the Israelis that live there, for if Israel doesn’t exist then its citizens don’t exist.


"Yes he said only damage it as if meaning it won’t destroy us so doesn’t worry, though it will destroy Israel. "

Ok that COULD be, but it’s actually only a translation we don’t know what this guy (which is AGAIN not part of the government) said. Well that’s what he said!!

Secondly he does have a lot of power and influence in Iran being that he is the head of the Head of the Expediency Council.

"Lastly on this, he did say that Iran would use nukes!! That’s very clear from there "

Wrong, or could you bring any quote or source ? [quote]I repeat

“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

Yes that’s clearly implied, plus all the other statements of wiping out Israel and well the only way one can do that is with nukes, and “walla” we see Iran has some big extensive nuclear program :roll:

Yeah for “peaceful purposes” yeah tell it to some other naive western fool, not to me :roll:

[quote]"That is quite clear and nowhere there do I see where it simply says its currant form or words like that.

All I see is YOUR spin on things. "

Look that’s not spin on things; you say Israel is a democratic country; wouldn’t it be only a change of form when Christians and Moslems would together with the Israelis form a democratic parliament and rule the country together? If that’s possible, realistic or not or whatever isn’t important, that simply is what Iran wants and in my view it would be only a change of the current form, not destroyed or wiped out them map and so on.

And that happens, now all of Israel’s citizens have the right to vote and they do and in fact in the Knesset we have already Muslim parliamentarians.

But again it seems like YOUR spin and indeed its moot point what YOU “feel” they are saying or not, for the above quotes clearly imply and even some clearly say, Israel wiped out and Pali’s in PLACE of Israel.

"No where have I see where even if Israel pulled out of the west bank and gaze, would Iran be happy with that. "

May would not, Iran want a country were Jews Moslems and Christians live together. No its clear that Iran wants a country where there are no Jews there.

Lets not forget why Israel came into being, the Muslims rejected at first to live in co existence and invaded, so now its saying that it wants that when we see from that (the invasion and rejection of us) as well as the above quotes that it doesn’t want that.

I say again, this seems like ONLY YOUR wishful view on how you think that’s what they are saying.

"Yes the quotes above show how that is a goal. "

Please I want one, only one quote were it is said that Iran will wipe Israel out of the map, only one this time. :cantbeli: Here I give you FOUR quotes, AGAIN :roll: ………..

If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

“Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”

““ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “


“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”



"No I saw one person claim they are un Islamic and I believe that was ONLY for political posturing. "

Sorry but that’s really funny... This one person is Khameini who is actually the dictator of Iran, he is the only one who could declare war on Israel, and he has the POWER. The guy you quoted is the rich, corrupt, ex-president which currently isn’t part of the government nor was at the time he said that, he is the head of one of many councils in Iran he can say he will destroy the whole world and don’t speak for the Iranian regime nor can give order to only one soldier to do anything.

Come on the situation is clear. Simply look for Rafsanjani and the leader of the IR.Iran Ajatolla Khameini ! First of all Kamenie also said “the Palestinians struggle and the Moslems' support for them will bring us to good results and will eliminate the enemy.” Well clearly they view Israel as the enemy and he says eliminate

Secondly on Rafsanjani, whether he is rich or not or you claim he is only for power is not a sufficient answer, he has a lot of power and influence in Iran and well he said those things and I also believe a lot of other have said those things and believe that view.

Also in there newspapers, which we all know, are government controlled and says what the governments wants.

“The genuine representatives of the Palestinian people must present the policy of the Imam Khomeini, namely that Israel should be erased from the map

“he argued that the Palestine issue has only one solution, and that is the solution which the Imam Khomeini raised at the time – wiping Israel off the map –“

“Since the events in occupied Palestine broke out, the sound of the death bell began to ring loudly, announcing stronger than ever the dying of Israel “


Btw these are just a few quotes, I bet there are much more, though indeed there isnt a site yet to have every single quote, though I know very well what the Islamic fundamentalist ideology holds with regards to Israel and well a lot in power in Iran subscribe to that view and well I can surmise from there that many more have said or think as the same when it comes to Israel and their offensive goals with it


"Secondly they build them, they have quotes where they say they will use them,"

Give me oneI gave you many where they say a goal is the destruction of Israel and I also gave you one where it even mentions nukes.

I won’t repeat it here again, its all above.


"not to mention in general quotes of the destruction of Israel and the only way is to use nukes"

In one of your quotes it was said that it would be enough if Arabs unite against Israel, so much to only can be done by nukes. no, that was only in one, but regardless, I said Iran and everyone knows simply based on past experiences, that even if you all united, you cant destroy us, we have proven that.

Everyone in the world knows (and I claim even you and Iran knows), the only way you can destroy Israel is only by weapons that can do that and well as far as I know the only weapons that can are WMD’s. and as such your WMD program is an offensive threat to us.


Next give me a quote that Iran said that it will destroy Israel. I did already, go look over again, for its very clear in those quotes.


"I also accept a proportional response and if we did attack those nuke site, to respond by wiping out Israel or killing hundreds of thousands of Israelis, as Iran claims it will do,"

Iran never said that it will kill even one Israeli civilian if the nuke site is attacked. If you have a quote, only come with it. ok so on this I will hold off for now on going to check what exactly they said, so here you tell me what it is they say and how they claim they would respond and do you say that if we just attacked those nuke sites, the response would be ??? What are they claiming they will do to us if we attack their nuke sites??

Lastly just for fun ;) , what do YOU think Iran will do to us if we indeed attack their nukes sites?


"Well obviously we disagree on what I think is quite clear from just some of their quotes on their true intentions and goal with regards to us. "

Well you have some quotes and they maybe will appear to some persons as offensive threats to Israel, but appearance don’t matter here, the quotes are solid and " scientific " you can’t make a offensive threat out of that. well we do look at them as a offensive threat and rather I would say we have no choice but to do so.

Like I said a while ago …”I think it was Golda mair who one said, that "when Hitler has said the things he said, no one believed him, and yet we see what happened, so when Nasser (in 1967) said the things he said, we had no choice but to believe him” and the same here, we have no choice but to take your threats seriously.”




"so are you denying that they help train and fund hetballh and supply arms to them and with all that hebllah has killed Israeli civilians? (Well we know they have killed, though your contesting that it wasn’t with Iran’s help?) "

I said Iran did help the army of the Hizbollah and I claim that this army only targets Israel’s military. ahh but that’s not true, for there are many cases where they have targeted ONLY civilians and we know this for the towns they hit had NO IDF presence there whatsoever nor was there any IDF fire coming from there.


"Anyways it serves no purpose, I come to this site for I enjoy debate and opposing viewpoints, I mean if I didn’t I wouldn’t be on this site, and you defiantly are an opposing view point, so as long as its civil, believe it or not, I actually enjoy this discourse here"

Its like training for me one can enjoy training ;) Indeed training for me as well, though I always like to view it as a exercise that ultimately only strengthens my own convictions and actually based on a lot of comments and debates on this forum it only make me more proud that I served in the IDF and that we even have a IDF to defend us, something which Jews hadn’t had before.


Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203

"and that contradicts………………..(oh and lets be clear all these quotes are not only from Rafsanjani, so none of this later on you claiming that all these quotes are from one man, when they are not) "

I don’t, its not only Rafsanjani but he is the only one speaking about nukes.

"Secondly Muslims and Christians and Jews do live together and in fact all Israeli citizens, even Muslim ones have the right to vote and indeed there are even Muslim parliamentarians.

Can you tell me how many Jewish parliamentarians there are in Iran’s government? "

Actually only one because there are not so many Jews in Iran.

"without getting into detail of what happened fifty years ago, the fact is that its clear from the above statements that Iran want to see Muslims in Israel in PLACE of Jews in ALL of Israel. "

Don’t see something like that, together and democratic was said.

"Lastly “(its good that there is Israel, but don’t ask me why)” thinkking..........hmm……..thinking……….ok here goes…………why? (Hey I couldn’t help myself and something tells me you knew that I would and hoped for it ) "

Hehe sorry but this time it’s really too sensitive for something like that. p-)

"wow so now you contradict what you said before, where you said it was only talking about the Israeli regime, now you say its not??"

In my view it would be only a change of the form, but I admit that it would mean that there is no Jewish state Israel anymore but a joint Moslem, Jewish and Christian country, but this would not mean that Jews would lose rights or their land.

"Secondly like Moledet said “how will they destroy only the Israeli state without killing the citizens?” "

The problem is that the only say the Israeli state must be gone/destroyed (this are still only translations), the don’t say that they would do that or so...

"And even if you claim Iran wont destroy us, ok you claim Israel as a country is wrong and that’s what they are saying, so how do you view us existing if its clear that Iran doesn’t view our country that protects us, from existing?

Iran clearly said before that Israel has no right to exist, that’s quite clear as to what it implies about all of the Israelis that live there, for if Israel doesn’t exist then its citizens don’t exist. "

As said it would only mean that at the place of Israel a joint Moslems, Jewish and Christian state would be formed with all of them having the same rights.

"Secondly he does have a lot of power and influence in Iran being that he is the head of the Head of the Expediency Council. "

He maybe has power but he isn’t part of the government only the head of a council, he cant decide anything.

"Yes that’s clearly implied, plus all the other statements of wiping out Israel and well the only way one can do that is with nukes, and “walla” we see Iran has some big extensive nuclear program"

This quote actually don’t say anything about Iran it says only that if one day a Islamic country has nukes Israel’s strategy must change because...bla bla bla...

I don’t see anything there and he should actually be right with that, or not ?

"Yeah for “peaceful purposes” yeah tell it to some other naive western fool, not to me "

We had that already, the Iranian Nuclear program has all the characteristics of a civilian program, a complete contrast to the Israeli and Iraqi programmes. As said such things are visible one must only look at the facilities.

"And that happens, now all of Israel’s citizens have the right to vote and they do and in fact in the Knesset we have already Muslim parliamentarians. "

Israel is the Jewish state, that would change and it wouldn’t be the Jewish state anymore but a joint Jewish, Moslem and Christian country.

"But again it seems like YOUR spin and indeed its moot point what YOU “feel” they are saying or not, for the above quotes clearly imply and even some clearly say, Israel wiped out and Pali’s in PLACE of Israel. "

As said Palestine was a country for several hundred years in the place of Israel one cant blame Iran for saying this name. Again in no quote it was said that Iran would attack Israel by any form, come on and make a difference between; WE WILL DESTROY ISRAEL and Israel should be destroyed and extra to that destroying don’t mean by physical means but only the regime/state. It would getting interesting if Iran would say that it wants the Jews go and the Palestinians take their place in Israel, but things like that were never said and I don’t see a threat for you Israelis.

"No its clear that Iran wants a country where there are no Jews there. "

Wrong, I repeat it and don’t overlook it again because that was said by the PRESIDENT OF IRAN: "We believe that all of Palestine's inhabitants – Moslems, Christians and Jews together can decide democratically on the sovereign framework under which they wish to co-exist.” "

Its even from the same site: http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/iran/shihab_11_03.htm

"Lets not forget why Israel came into being, the Muslims rejected at first to live in co existence and invaded, so now its saying that it wants that when we see from that (the invasion and rejection of us) as well as the above quotes that it doesn’t want that. "

That actually does not matter, its funny that exactly this co existence was said by the Iranian President (who actually is part of the government and has the power to decide some things).

“We do not recognize Israel, since its existence is based on the conquest of Palestine lands and the imposition of its policy on all the area's inhabitants. We believe that all of Palestine's inhabitants – Moslems, Christians and Jews together can decide democratically on the sovereign framework under which they wish to co-exist.”

Said by mr.President, here with a Iranian Jew kissing him and he obvious enjoying it p-) http://www.iranian.com/PhotoDay/2000/August/Images/jews.jpg

"I say again, this seems like ONLY YOUR wishful view on how you think that’s what they are saying. "

It’s actually fact when there is no part in the sentence where anything is said about Iran doing anything.

"Here I give you FOUR quotes, AGAIN ……….. "

Sorry but in those quotes there is nothing about Iran doing ANYTHING, only that it don’t recognize.

Also this are only translations (expect the interview in Japan maybe), but even by being only that, there is no threat in connection with Iran in all of them.

"First of all Kamenie also said “the Palestinians struggle and the Moslems' support for them will bring us to good results and will eliminate the enemy.” Well clearly they view Israel as the enemy and he says eliminate "

Sure he is conservative and he is against Israel, never claimed anything else.

"Secondly on Rafsanjani, whether he is rich or not or you claim he is only for power is not a sufficient answer, he has a lot of power and influence in Iran and well he said those things and I also believe a lot of other have said those things and believe that view. "

Actually it was a strategic mistake of me to questioning Rafsanjani position, because even with what he said he never did bring Iran into the game and so formed no threat by Iran to Israel. Many peoples believe in what he says don’t matter, a great Israeli Rabbie could say that Israelis should Nuke the whole world, he could even be in a opposition party, for me his words would be of no worth for Israel's policy.

Rafsanjani did make a strategic view for the future and he is actually not wrong with that.

"Btw these are just a few quotes,"

And actually of no worth as the don’t show a threat by the Iranian state against Israel, some "should" or "would be good's", simply don’t count.

"I gave you many where they say a goal is the destruction of Israel and I also gave you one where it even mentions nukes. "

There was not one time the word Iran and the word nuke in those quotes and that’s fact. Again the Iranian Dictator said nukes are unislamic and that Iran would never acquire them and that’s fact proved by link.

"no, that was only in one, but regardless, I said Iran and everyone knows simply based on past experiences, that even if you all united, you cant destroy us, we have proven that. "

Actually not, you never had to mess with Iran; actually the Iranian supported Hizbollah was and is the only Arab organization ever to make Israel retreat. But that’s not important, important is that there is one quote which says what Arabs would be capable to defeat Israel together with nothing about nukes.

"Everyone in the world knows (and I claim even you and Iran knows), the only way you can destroy Israel is only by weapons that can do that and well as far as I know the only weapons that can are WMD’s. and as such your WMD program is an offensive threat to us. "

There isn’t a WMD program in Iran and that’s not because you are a naive western for my. Its fact also the UN never claimed anything about Iranian WMD, Iranians see WMD as unislamic.

I'm sure Israel could be defeated conventionally, the country must only be strong enough and capable to taking looses. Iran will never attack Israel.

"I did already, go look over again, for its very clear in those quotes. "

You are not understanding, in none of those quote there was "Iran", "will", "destroy" and "Israel", nothing.

You would not come ahead in a court with such quotes.

"ok so on this I will hold off for now on going to check what exactly they said, so here you tell me what it is they say and how they claim they would respond and do you say that if we just attacked those nuke sites, the response would be ??? "

He said Iran would counterattack in a way that Israel could not dream of and he said that he don’t mean Nukes.

"Lastly just for fun , what do YOU think Iran will do to us if we indeed attack their nukes sites? "

Didn’t we have this ? I would expect a heavy missile attack against Israeli installations.

"Like I said a while ago …”I think it was Golda mair who one said, that "when Hitler has said the things he said, no one believed him, and yet we see what happened, so when Nasser (in 1967) said the things he said, we had no choice but to believe him” and the same here, we have no choice but to take your threats seriously.” "

If Iran says that it will destroy Israel then you have something you can be worried about. But if only some Iranians say that Israel should be destroyed or, they speculate about Israel’s strategy when some Islamic country does get nukes (for Iran nukes are again forbidden, as the highest Shia cleric and dictator of Iran, declared them as unislamic).

"ahh but that’s not true, for there are many cases where they have targeted ONLY civilians and we know this for the towns they hit had NO IDF presence there whatsoever nor was there any IDF fire coming from there. "

That are things which are hard to prove, maybe they had Intel that there are IDF units in the area... You have to prove these things and that’s very hard to impossible.




"Indeed training for me as well, though I always like to view it as a exercise that ultimately only strengthens my own convictions and actually based on a lot of comments and debates on this forum it only make me more proud that I served in the IDF and that we even have a IDF to defend us, something which Jews hadn’t had before. "

Sure you have your side and have all the rights to defend and be proud. As said in the world are different sides, only if one side defeat the other and one side remaining as sole winner there can be something like peace. I would say Israelis are on one side and Iranians on the other and that not because of the religion. You know actually because Arabs are your relatives you will be in the end on the same side. Something without politics and religion from me p-)

PS: That is really getting long ;)

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203

"and that contradicts………………..(oh and lets be clear all these quotes are not only from Rafsanjani, so none of this later on you claiming that all these quotes are from one man, when they are not) "

I don’t, its not only Rafsanjani but he is the only one speaking about nukes. No the others are talking about destroying Israel and there is only one real way that can happen and that’s with nukes, so there is no need for them to use the word nukes for its implicit already with their wiping out Israel comments.


"without getting into detail of what happened fifty years ago, the fact is that its clear from the above statements that Iran want to see Muslims in Israel in PLACE of Jews in ALL of Israel. "

Don’t see something like that, together and democratic was said. no I brought down many quotes where the destruction of Israel was said, and NOT what you just said here.


"Lastly “(its good that there is Israel, but don’t ask me why)” thinkking..........hmm……..thinking……….ok here goes…………why? (Hey I couldn’t help myself and something tells me you knew that I would and hoped for it ) "

Hehe sorry but this time it’s really too sensitive for something like that. p-) aw come on tell me what you really think and why?


"wow so now you contradict what you said before, where you said it was only talking about the Israeli regime, now you say its not??"

In my view it would be only a change of the form, but I admit that it would mean that there is no Jewish state Israel anymore but a joint Moslem, Jewish and Christian country, but this would not mean that Jews would lose rights or their land. ok that’s in YOUR view for what I see coming from the Islamic fundamentalists in general does not show that.

Secondly as for that view, well I think thats pure western naiveté for its clear that a majority of the Arab Muslim world still do not want to live side by side with Jews even if its not under a state called Israel.

And lastly the Muslim/Arabs and Iran have over 22 nations and most of them bar Jews from living there, so first, to demand another one is beyond absurd not to mention its absolutely ridicules to believe Jews will be safe under a state that is not a Jewish state in that region.

What you are doing is also calling for the end of Jews there, though you just do it in a more fancy western way of saying it, for the end reality is IMO the same!!!


"Secondly like Moledet said “how will they destroy only the Israeli state without killing the citizens?” "

The problem is that the only say the Israeli state must be gone/destroyed (this are still only translations), the don’t say that they would do that or so... The Israeli state is what protects us Jews, take that away and we are destroyed…again you expose the same thing.

Secondly again IMO that’s ONLY you saying it the way you say for again I see Islamic fundamentalists saying it more clearly for our destruction.


"And even if you claim Iran wont destroy us, ok you claim Israel as a country is wrong and that’s what they are saying, so how do you view us existing if its clear that Iran doesn’t view our country that protects us, from existing?

Iran clearly said before that Israel has no right to exist, that’s quite clear as to what it implies about all of the Israelis that live there, for if Israel doesn’t exist then its citizens don’t exist. "

As said it would only mean that at the place of Israel a joint Moslems, Jewish and Christian state would be formed with all of them having the same rights. well besides the fact that we saw that it didn’t work before 1948, ever since we see clearly that without the Jewish state protecting Jews, there is NO protection for us and taking that away is the end of Jews there.

Secondly I repeat, their words of destruction were quite clear as to what it said and nowhere there did I see any hint of what just YOU suggested.


"Yes that’s clearly implied, plus all the other statements of wiping out Israel and well the only way one can do that is with nukes, and “walla” we see Iran has some big extensive nuclear program"

This quote actually don’t say anything about Iran it says only that if one day a Islamic country has nukes Israel’s strategy must change because...bla bla bla... hehe :lol: your reasoning here is very funny ;) …..yes the quote said Islamic country and well Iran is getting nukes……………come on, stop trying to insult my intelligence here, its unbefitting even of you :roll:


"Yeah for “peaceful purposes” yeah tell it to some other naive western fool, not to me "

We had that already, the Iranian Nuclear program has all the characteristics of a civilian program, a complete contrast to the Israeli and Iraqi programmes. As said such things are visible one must only look at the facilities. no, every day now reports come out to the contrary (even from the UN)………….anyways I am not going to do research on this now………….its clear to me that Iran that has all the energy sources on its own and does not need this for those supposed peaceful purposes, but of course you’ll insist what you will and I will insist what I will.

Again we will just have to agree to disagree.

If and when Israel does attack, I am sure they will release more proof.


"And that happens, now all of Israel’s citizens have the right to vote and they do and in fact in the Knesset we have already Muslim parliamentarians. "

Israel is the Jewish state, that would change and it wouldn’t be the Jewish state anymore but a joint Jewish, Moslem and Christian country. in a region where there are over 22 Arab/Muslim nations, where most don’t allow ONE Jew to vote, yes there is one small nation that is the Jewish nation that already allows Muslims, Christians, Jews Buddhist’s, any of its citizens to vote………………..so please spare me the mere democratic “wishes” here when most of your (not just Iran, but the Arabs and the 22 Arab nations) actions on the ground clearly show something else


"No its clear that Iran wants a country where there are no Jews there. "

Wrong, I repeat it and don’t overlook it again because that was said by the PRESIDENT OF IRAN: "We believe that all of Palestine's inhabitants – Moslems, Christians and Jews together can decide democratically on the sovereign framework under which they wish to co-exist.” "and that goes again what most of the Islamic fundamentalists have said!!!

Secondly I also brought you quotes from the president where it also talks about the destruction of Israel.

If you just mean what you say, you don’t use the words that they have used for what they have used mean exactly what I have interpreted.



"Here I give you FOUR quotes, AGAIN ……….. "

Sorry but in those quotes there is nothing about Iran doing ANYTHING, only that it don’t recognize. if its about not recognizing that say that word, let me repeat again those quotes and YOU now show me where in them does it use that word not recognize.

I repeat……..

“If one day, a very important day, of course, the Islamic World will also be equipped with the weapons available to Israel now, the imperialist strategy will reach an impasse, because the employment of even one atomic bomb inside Israel will wipe it off the face of the earth”

“Israel will disappear from the world map, and a Palestinian state will come in its place, if the Arab states unite against it”


“it is hoped that the Islamic leaders will consider Khomeini's words that Israel must be wiped off the Middle East map. This must be done before it is too late”

here show me in them where it says just about not recongizeing!! Come on show me!!

And here [/b]
““ Iran will never and under no circumstances recognize Israel's right to exist “[/b] yes we see the word recognize but its not merely not recognize Israel as plain as that is, but right after it is followed by our right to exists, that means I and my brethren have no right to be on this planet Acc. to them.


"First of all Kamenie also said “the Palestinians struggle and the Moslems' support for them will bring us to good results and will eliminate the enemy.” Well clearly they view Israel as the enemy and he says eliminate "

Sure he is conservative and he is against Israel, never claimed anything else. The fact that he is against Israel BOTH of us never disputed, however read it again, he said eliminate the enemy!!!!! Eliminate!!! Again eliminate!!!! That is more then mere disagreeing with us.


"Btw these are just a few quotes,"

And actually of no worth as the don’t show a threat by the Iranian state against Israel, some "should" or "would be good's", simply don’t count. No it’s a threat against us and I believe those quotes and more (like having Israel destroyed written on your missiles etc…) clearly shows that, but simply you refuse to see that or rather I believe you do but you like playing this western game of twisting what’s clear to show somehow how it means something else………..well I am not fooled and I see a threat to my life all to clear even if you don’t.


"I gave you many where they say a goal is the destruction of Israel and I also gave you one where it even mentions nukes. "

There was not one time the word Iran and the word nuke in those quotes and that’s fact. Again the Iranian Dictator said nukes are unislamic and that Iran would never acquire them and that’s fact proved by link. there were many words with Iran and wiping us out, eliminating us, destroying us and well there is only one weapon that can do it……..I don’t need to be Einstein to figure out what that means and what weapon that can be.


"no, that was only in one, but regardless, I said Iran and everyone knows simply based on past experiences, that even if you all united, you cant destroy us, we have proven that. "

Actually not, you never had to mess with Iran; actually the Iranian supported Hizbollah was and is the only Arab organization ever to make Israel retreat. But that’s not important, Of course thats not important for that was a political retreat not a military retreat, I mean hetbllah posses no existential threat to us, so losing 20 soldiers a year which was the general average I believe, was a bit more that our “value for lives society” wanted to take, so the left/Labor Gov. pulled us out, but big mistake if you think any more into that.

As for Iran joining in, again without nukes, I am not too worried….now don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to see war, nor do I think it will be a cake walk for us or that easy, but do I have doubts that we cant win, no not at all.

So yes its only with WMD;s that you can destroy or wipe us out.


"Everyone in the world knows (and I claim even you and Iran knows), the only way you can destroy Israel is only by weapons that can do that and well as far as I know the only weapons that can are WMD’s. and as such your WMD program is an offensive threat to us. "

There isn’t a WMD program in Iran and that’s not because you are a naive western for my. Its fact also the UN never claimed anything about Iranian WMD, Iranians see WMD as unislamic. first of all the UN did not give Iran a clear pass…..secondly irregardless of the UN, we have intelligence that there is and if we strike that I can guarantee you that it was solid for we aren’t a big nation so if we strike we will do it if we have to, for there is no other reason we would strike, its not like we are going to invade for your oil.

As for un islamic, spare me that BS, I see plenty of Muslims commit many things that are un Islamic even if they claim it is.

That does not make me feel any safer.


I'm sure Israel could be defeated conventionally, the country must only be strong enough and capable to taking looses. Iran will never attack Israel. Israel can not be defeated conventionally as we speak even if all of you ganged up, so please spare me the same old tired Muslim boasting which is usually based on nothing.

Iran on the other hand can be defeated conventionally that’s why they never all out attacked us, however with nukes, well that’s a whole other ball game.



"I did already, go look over again, for its very clear in those quotes. "

You are not understanding, in none of those quote there was "Iran", "will", "destroy" and "Israel", nothing. Yes in my quotes, there was “wipe out” “eliminate” “plai state in place” “disappear from the world map and plai state come in its place” (no this Jews, Arabs Muslims together crap that you claim is being said)



You would not come ahead in a court with such quotes. in fair and balanced court we would.


"ok so on this I will hold off for now on going to check what exactly they said, so here you tell me what it is they say and how they claim they would respond and do you say that if we just attacked those nuke sites, the response would be ??? "

He said Iran would counterattack in a way that Israel could not dream of and he said that he don’t mean Nukes. ok elaborate on that and also how do you know he didn’t mean nukes?

Well I am dreaming of just the nuclear instillations in kind, so now what does he mean we cannot dream of……what more?


"Like I said a while ago …”I think it was Golda mair who one said, that "when Hitler has said the things he said, no one believed him, and yet we see what happened, so when Nasser (in 1967) said the things he said, we had no choice but to believe him” and the same here, we have no choice but to take your threats seriously.” "

If Iran says that it will destroy Israel then you have something you can be worried about. But if only some Iranians say that Israel should be destroyed or, they speculate about Israel’s strategy when some Islamic country does get nukes (for Iran nukes are again forbidden, as the highest Shia cleric and dictator of Iran, declared them as unislamic). no I saw a lot more quotes not to mention clearly we don’t see the same things in what I feel is very clear from the qoutes above so again I go with what golda mair said.



"ahh but that’s not true, for there are many cases where they have targeted ONLY civilians and we know this for the towns they hit had NO IDF presence there whatsoever nor was there any IDF fire coming from there. "

That are things which are hard to prove, maybe they had Intel that there are IDF units in the area... You have to prove these things and that’s very hard to impossible. no we know there wasn’t any IDF presence there and the people living there can testify to that……..those were civilian towns with no IDF presence whatsoever, that’s was very clear, so yes in a lot of those cases its clear that they targeted only civilians.



PS: That is really getting long ;) yes that’s why I take some long breaks in between for I do (or I try) to have a real life besides these forums)

Shalom :D

[-=P=-]

@IDFM203


No the others are talking about destroying Israel and there is only one real way that can happen and that’s with nukes, so there is no need for them to use the word nukes for its implicit already with their wiping out Israel comments.

Most of them are clerics, they don’t think about how Israel will be destroyed or if Israel can only be destroyed by nukes which is not the case, they want the Israeli regime and state removed.


no I brought down many quotes where the destruction of Israel was said, and NOT what you just said here.

Sure as known Iran don’t recognize the Israeli state.


ok that’s in YOUR view for what I see coming from the Islamic fundamentalists in general does not show that.

Secondly as for that view, well I think that’s pure western naiveté for its clear that a majority of the Arab Muslim world still do not want to live side by side with Jews even if its not under a state called Israel.

But the Iranian president told the things I said above, that’s not what I think nor does Iran cares on what some or most Arabs feel. Or does every Iranian official lie open readable for all ?


And lastly the Muslim/Arabs and Iran have over 22 nations and most of them bar Jews from living there, so first, to demand another one is beyond absurd not to mention its absolutely ridicules to believe Jews will be safe under a state that is not a Jewish state in that region.

Jewish or not is not important I thought all want a secular free democratic nation. In Iran are many Jews and you can blame fundamentalist Moslems if some of them go to Israel but not the regime, they have the same rights as Muslims and are in the parliament.


The Israeli state is what protects us Jews, take that away and we are destroyed…again you expose the same thing.

Lets say the Jewish tribe the real ones not the religion have the right to have a own state, but it don’t change that those Palestinians did get that land and lived there, you cant simply take land from others and expect them or those who have the same religion as they make no problems and be happy. It was your land ok I accept that, Jews are a tribe and need an own country, ok I accept that, but not when taking a other tribes land, you can’t expect that everything will be ok...


well besides the fact that we saw that it didn’t work before 1948,

At that time there was no "democracy" and you can blame the Arabs for that.


hehe your reasoning here is very funny …..yes the quote said Islamic country and well Iran is getting nukes……………

Mistake Iran is not getting nukes. He is actually right or not ?


no, every day now reports come out to the contrary (even from the UN)………….

Give me even one. :lol:


………….its clear to me that Iran that has all the energy sources on its own and does not need this for those supposed peaceful purposes, but of course you’ll insist what you will and I will insist what I will.

Burning Oil for energy is not economic especially not when one can export it and even less if someone wants to be independent from it...


Again we will just have to agree to disagree.

Sorry but that’s nothing ideological, as you say you have not researched on this, but I know the basic stuff and nobody can tell be that it has weapon characteristics, show me one part of the program which would be used for weapons.





If and when Israel does attack, I am sure they will release more proof.

Good I'm waiting for it.


in a region where there are over 22 Arab/Muslim nations, where most don’t allow ONE Jew to vote

Arab country’s maybe, but in Iran they are allowed.


and that goes again what most of the Islamic fundamentalists have said!!!

hehe :lol: :lol: Now you are insulting my intelligence... THATS THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT , that guy and Ayatollah Khameini have the power in Iran ! That’s the regime, the government.


Secondly I also brought you quotes from the president where it also talks about the destruction of Israel.

Think logical if someone wants such a country said above, Israel must be removed, that is normal.


if its about not recognizing that say that word, let me repeat again those quotes and YOU now show me where in them does it use that word not recognize.

I thought it would be logical that not recognizing would mean that it must removed, destroyed or what ever it was translated. That’s with every country so when he don’t recognize the other.

"The fact that he is against Israel BOTH of us never disputed, however read it again, he said eliminate the enemy!!!!! Eliminate!!! Again eliminate!!!! That is more then mere disagreeing with us. "

Sorry but isn’t that normal ? Not recognizing means something is not kocha, something is wrong it can’t be that way, the problem must be even eliminated.


No it’s a threat against us and I believe those quotes and more (like having Israel destroyed written on your missiles etc…) clearly shows that, but simply you refuse to see that or rather I believe you do but you like playing this western game of twisting what’s clear to show somehow how it means something else………..

Actually I'm not playing that "western" game it’s the Israelis and the Mullahs... You cant handle tings like "destroying" or eliminate, ok I understand your feelings especially as you think nationalistic, BUT that don’t change the fact that those Mullahs chose their words very carefully and never bring Iran into the game, only "should" and "would be good's"... That printed on the missile is also said against Americans and simply should show that the missile can attack both, ir is Iran going to wipe out America ? Both states are declared enemy’s...


there were many words with Iran and wiping us out, eliminating us, destroying us and well there is only one weapon that can do it……..[quote]

Sorry its maybe too much now but could you bring quotes in which it is said that Iran would harm Israel by anyway, mark Iran fat in the text, thanks.

[quote]……..I don’t need to be Einstein to figure out what that means and what weapon that can be.

As said at the top.


Of course thats not important for that was a political retreat not a military retreat, I mean hetbllah posses no existential threat to us, so losing 20 soldiers a year which was the general average I believe, was a bit more that our “value for lives society” wanted to take, so the left/Labor Gov. pulled us out, but big mistake if you think any more into that.

Ok, but never think that it was an all out war for the Hizbollah, it was a war of attrition and Hizbollah also had no significant looses. And with the Hizbollah of today you also don’t had to deal with.


As for Iran joining in, again without nukes, I am not too worried….now don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to see war, nor do I think it will be a cake walk for us or that easy, but do I have doubts that we cant win, no not at all.

Iran wont attack or invade Israel.


first of all the UN did not give Iran a clear pass…..secondly irregardless of the UN, we have intelligence

The UN is present in Iran... They did not gave Iran a clean pass because Iran did get centrifuge technology on the black market, but today no country would export centrifuge technology to Iran anyway and it was the only way.


As for un islamic, spare me that BS, I see plenty of Muslims commit many things that are un Islamic even if they claim it is.

That does not make me feel any safer.

Ok you might think it is BS and you might think Israel can only be destroyed by WMD, not my problem these are all things you feel or thinks...


Israel can not be defeated conventionally as we speak even if all of you ganged up, so please spare me the same old tired Muslim boasting which is usually based on nothing.

I'm sure America would do it pretty fast.


Iran on the other hand can be defeated conventionally that’s why they never all out attacked us, however with nukes, well that’s a whole other ball game.


I'm sure America would do it but not as fast as Israel, because Iran is much bigger.

"in fair and balanced court we would. "

As I said mark Iran, will and destroy fat and we can go to a court and you will win there.


ok elaborate on that and also how do you know he didn’t mean nukes?

Well I am dreaming of just the nuclear instillations in kind, so now what does he mean we cannot dream of……what more?

Oh well here is even an Israeli site, how fair:

""If Israel attacks Iran, we will respond in a way no Israeli politician has ever dreamed about," warned Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani yesterday. Asked by al-Jazeera television if he was referring to nuclear weapons, Shamkhani gave a negative reply, but added that "time would tell" the nature of Iran's response."

http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0189.htm

As it seems Iran is thinking it could harm Israel even without WMD p-)


no I saw a lot more quotes not to mention clearly we don’t see the same things in what I feel is very clear from the qoutes above so again I go with what golda mair said.

That with fat marked quote applies also here.


no we know there wasn’t any IDF presence there and the people living there can testify to that……..those were civilian towns with no IDF presence whatsoever, that’s was very clear, so yes in a lot of those cases its clear that they targeted only civilians.

Sorry but how do you think such things are going on, only because the IDF say there were not there or civilians say they saw no IDF units, you cant say that Hezbollah targeted civilian, maybe their Intel was wrong and that’s called collateral damage.


yes that’s why I take some long breaks in between for I do (or I try) to have a real life besides these forums)

I have holydays ;)