Goodbye USA, Mexico & Canada - Welcome the North American Union

[kimosabi]

The "plan to create" a North American Union in 2010 as a regional government—comprising a collective government for the United States, Canada, and Mexico—is "directly stated only" in the May 2005 task force report Building a North American Community published by the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Jerome Corsi wrote June 26, 2006.

The "blueprint" which President George W. Bush is following to create a North American Union was "laid out" in the May 2005 report, Corsi wrote May 19, 2006. "The CFR report connects the dots between the Bush administration's actual policy on illegal immigration and the drive to create the North American Union."

Bush is "pursuing a globalist agenda to create a North American Union, effectively erasing our borders with both Mexico and Canada," which, Corsi wrote, is "the hidden agenda behind the Bush administration's true open borders policy."

The plan, Corsi wrote, is "contained" in the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, "little noticed" by the mainstream media when President Bush, Mexico's President Vicente Fox, and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin "created it" March 23, 2005, in a summit held at Waco, Texas.

A North American Union is being created "through a process of governmental regulations" and without ever "having to bring the issue before the American people for a clear referendum or vote," Corsi wrote May 24, 2006.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=North_American_Union

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/QWH0B97-joU

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/vuBo4E77ZXo

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NSi8eENRX7U

[MichaelF]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=113031&highlight=Amero

Months late, Squire.

[kimosabi]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=113031&highlight=Amero

Months late, Squire.

It's quite difficult to post into locked threads.

Hopefully stupidity doesn't overtake this thread, like the last one.

[Daniel San]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30998&stc=1&d=1184858120

A more integrated economy, security, of course, but a body politick for all three countries?

[Pandy]

Well, it makes sense to me. There no longer illegal in our country if they're citizens. ;)

[Ordie]

1233456789990

[Jobu]

1233456789990

This is what will be stamped on your forearm when the evil Meximericanadian Union gestapo take over.

<.<.

.>.>

[Doublethinker]

I Sense Eeeevil At Work Here!

[Fade]

Ain't gonna happen

[MichaelF]

Can you see >100,000,000 Mexicans getting told that they are now going to be an American vassal state (population and economics dictating that as the only possible outcome of a North American Union)?

They'd end up going through 4-5 Presidentes before the week was out.

Mexicans, as a group, cordially despise us gringos. Suggesting that they enter into an unequal partnership with the US holding the whip hand....good way to get lynched.

Never mind Canada. The most you'd get there would be a few folks in the West who are alienated by Ontario. The rest of the population would just see it as the US gobbling up their civilization.

Any NAU, by definition of demographics and economic realities, becomes a GrossAmerika. Selling that idea in the other two States is an impossibility.

[MichaelF]

1 Problem: Treaties included, no law may override the US Constitution. In any way, shape or form. That has already been tested and every one went down in flames.

A slightly less serious problem: The Canadians won't do it. Any Canadian-US Union becomes, overnight, a US hegemony. Not from any sinister doings, but just from sheer size. 10:1 in population, 12:1 on the economic front. Canadians aren't Americans, and in general, don't wish to be. Canadians wouldn't tolerate being a junior partner.

Mexico* is even less likely to sign on, as it would be pretty easy to portray it as a second land-grab by the US. Any US-Mexican Union that even looks like a US-dominated deal is over before it begins. Mexicans wouldn't tolerate being a junior partner.

Any US-Canadian/Mexican Union where the other Parties are co-equal to the US would be unacceptable to the American People. Not to mention....noncongruent with reality. We are bigger, richer and more powerful. Giving up power and authority just to sweeten the deal for Canada and Mexico won't fly.

About the closest thing you could get is the Union (US) expanding to absorb a couple of Mexican States and/or Canadian Provinces. Anything else is a non-seller in the US.


An auxiliary (not replacing the Peso, Canadian Dollar or US Dollar) currency (Eagle?), acceptable in all three Nations might work.

Short of WWIII or a comet impacting, I don't expect to see either a North American Union or a unified currency before 2050. Even that date is on the narrow end of the "possibility" scale.

*-there is no 24hr Price Discovery for the Mexican Peso. BIG BIG BIG GRANDE problem if we wanted to integrate the economies. It'd make the economic fallout from the German Reunification (when the OM was accepted in lieu of DM on a 1:1) look like a tea party.

[tsuri]

1 Problem: Treaties included, no law may override the US Constitution. In any way, shape or form. That has already been tested and every one went down in flames.

That is only one of the smaller problem. No law can override any constitution as it is generally illegal for governments to pass laws that are unconstitutional.

The fundamental problem is a pathologic paranoia in the USA over any institution outside their own state. The general principle that International law beats national law, is not very well accepted there.

An American Union would not mirror the EU too closely, balancing votes would be impossible and North America has no uses for most things the EU handles. US would not give their agricultural subventions to a supranational government as European countries did for example as there is nothing they would get in exchange.

A monetary union under a supposed Amero makes less sense. The history of the Euro comes from the attempt to balance various currencies against each other. Exchanging the Dollar with a new currency makes no sense considering it`s role in the world economy.

It will become a new ECU but that will be useless as large companies between these nations already do all their trade in USD...



Any US-Canadian/Mexican Union where the other Parties are co-equal to the US would be unacceptable to the American People. Not to mention....noncongruent with reality. We are bigger, richer and more powerful. Giving up power and authority just to sweeten the deal for Canada and Mexico won't fly.

That is what you will see. Intergovernmental treaties where every state has the same vote and voice.

A common market is not going to happen either, as the US will not give up sovereignity over various market mechanisms. So there will be a free trade area, Schengen will not happen with the huge anti immigration sentiment in the US, so no four freedoms either.


About the closest thing you could get is the Union (US) expanding to absorb a couple of Mexican States and/or Canadian Provinces. Anything else is a non-seller in the US.

ITT People do not understand supranationality ;)
You only give up selective pieces of your state powers, not everything, including your identity as a state...


*-there is no 24hr Price Discovery for the Mexican Peso. BIG BIG BIG GRANDE problem if we wanted to integrate the economies. It'd make the economic fallout from the German Reunification (when the OM was accepted in lieu of DM on a 1:1) look like a tea party.

Only up to 4000 Mark and only for a limited time. Also a Euro for NAFTA would not work like the German unification, See ERM, ECU and Euro.

tl;dr:
AU for North America will not work because nobody will make the commitments neccesary to do it and nobody needs to.

[Shellshock1918]

Ain't gonna happen
Just wait till the dollar collapses. They'll say "Oh we need this NAU for greater economic security! For the benefit of All Americans!"

Why do you think Bush, or the politicians for that matter, are not securing the border?

[GIJOEJK]

People, this has all been predicted in the past.

http://www.servantofthemosthigh.com/dream.jpg

Note that we are the "feet". Iron and clay will never mix, thus the whole thing will fall...

[sinophile]

A realistic person takes one look at the growing EU, the Chinese and Indian markets and concludes that North American economic competitiveness rests in joining up in union with the Canadians and Mexico.

Those of us living in fantasyland think some miracle will occur and fairness will seep into the trade manufacturing, trade, environmental and currency practices of US's competition. Ain't gonna happen.

The US needs an increase in Mexico's living standard to create more consumers for its goods. The Mexicans need currency and trade parity to make that happen. The Canadians benefit huge from currency parity and totally unrestrained access to the American marketplace.

A North American union can't happen fast enough. Quality of life for the hemisphere will skyrocket.

[Merfeller]

A realistic person takes one look at the growing EU, the Chinese and Indian markets and concludes that North American economic competitiveness rests in joining up in union with the Canadians and Mexico.

Those of us living in fantasyland think some miracle will occur and fairness will seep into the trade manufacturing, trade, environmental and currency practices of US's competition. Ain't gonna happen.

The US needs an increase in Mexico's living standard to create more consumers for its goods. The Mexicans need currency and trade parity to make that happen. The Canadians benefit huge from currency parity and totally unrestrained access to the American marketplace.

A North American union can't happen fast enough. Quality of life for the hemisphere will skyrocket.

makes sense to me, Ari. Couldn't agree more.

[MichaelF]

Only up to 4000 Mark and only for a limited time. .

Yes, but it upped the asking price for man-hours of East german labor, wildly reducing the ability of the (less efficient and modern) Ost industries to compete on the open market. Employment go splat.

That's not counting what it did to confidence in the DM, over the short term.

[MichaelF]

The US needs an increase in Mexico's living standard to create more consumers for its goods. The Mexicans need currency and trade parity to make that happen.

.

No, the Mexican infrastructure is infamously corrupt. African-style kleptocracy. That's why it has the 13th largest ($1.134 trillion) economy, but is 63rd ($11,249) in per capita income (PPP), when it should be on-par with the middle-rank EU economies.

There is nothing wrong with the economy, and Mexico has the highest credit rating of any Latin American country. The Mexican people simply do not get a decent return on their investment in government.

Lack of structural reform is further exacerbated by an ever increasing outflow of the population into the United States, decreasing domestic pressure for reform.

That's why a US/Canada union is technically feasible, if a political non-starter (>20,000,000 new Democrats??? >150,000,000 new Tories????), but a union involving either party and Mexico is impossible. No one wants to have to deal with Mexican politics and the infrastructural baggage. You'd have civil insurrection when the Mexican politicians tried their brand of local homesteading on Americans.

[ex Strathcona]

The Canadians benefit huge from currency parity and totally unrestrained access to the American marketplace.


actually, we do better with a lower Cdn dollar, it stimulates foreign investment, it makes our products more competitive on foreign markets.

it has help Canada achieve a huge trade surplus with the USA who is our number 1 trading partner.

our dollar has been rising in value lately though, last i heard it was getting close to .90 US and i have heard a lot of things regarding some hardship in the tourism business this summer from it. on a positive note, i hear some book prices have recently dropped to reflect the higher dollar, and this would be a good time for our businesses to invest in computer hardware and software since they can get more for their money.

but in the end, i don't see joining a North American Union as a way to raise our standard of living, have you ever been to Buffalo?

[Shellshock1918]

A realistic person takes one look at the growing EU, the Chinese and Indian markets and concludes that North American economic competitiveness rests in joining up in union with the Canadians and Mexico.

Those of us living in fantasyland think some miracle will occur and fairness will seep into the trade manufacturing, trade, environmental and currency practices of US's competition. Ain't gonna happen.

The US needs an increase in Mexico's living standard to create more consumers for its goods. The Mexicans need currency and trade parity to make that happen. The Canadians benefit huge from currency parity and totally unrestrained access to the American marketplace.

A North American union can't happen fast enough. Quality of life for the hemisphere will skyrocket.

Are you ****ing kidding me.. a neo-con..wow I mean this whole heartedly, **** you.
Scum like you blame bad economic times on so-called "free trade" you are part of the system, a system that is wrong and is destroying America.

What ever happened to national sovereignty? They will scrap the US constitution and all of our rights with it. This kind of collectivism is dangerous. This is all leading to one world government.

[0rphie]

I think it makes a lot of sense, particularly for Mexicans since US welfare system is way better than theirs.

[Rakki]

United States of North America. Expand the Union!

[Loomisfarms01]

IMO – Absolutely, positively never going to happen.

American taxpayers are never going to fund the trillions of dollars it would take to bring Mexico out of the third world. Mexico sure as hell cannot afford it, nor does their government seem willing to do it themselves. As for Mexico demanding equal status how could they? Are the two countries even remotely close as far as infrastructures (roads, phone system, power generation & national grid system, water supply, etc), health care systems, environmental laws & requirements, military compatibility, not to mention the Spanish language would have to be universally accepted throughout the U.S. & Canada. Do you want your American children learning Spanish because it’s a requirement? Do you think Americans are going to accept their dollar going down because of the Mexican pesos?

The comparisons being made to West Germany absorbing East Germany are spot on EXCEPT the economic & social ramifications should 1,000 times worse for America & Canada. They were both Germans, only a wall seperated them.

Mexico is the third world. Nobody can or should try to fix that but the Mexican people themselves.

[Shadowstorm]

I agree with you on their goverment, but Calderon is trying to get rid of the corruption little by little and the Mexican Peso is in need's of a improvement. But their infrastructures are up to date, like the phones, heath care systems, power systems, water systems. However the roads are in need of a update though Mexico is improving on their environment too. On the military issue Mexico has almost 200,000 troops regular duty while 24 million on resevres, but Mexico is a pacfist country, means it wants stay out of wars and conflicts, however the Mexican goverment wants to send troops to the conflict zones, but the plan is being held up in congress. But the Mexican military is improving on their military equipment and making their own systems such as FX-05 rifle, warships, UAVs, armoured vehicles, missiles, radar and other systems. On the language issue a lot of people is speaking or learning Spanish in United States and Canada along with Mexico which is speaking English or learning it. But Mexico is a developing country like India, China, Brazil and South Africa and not a third world country like everybody says, even with some major problems.

[Flounder]

Once you guys learn Spanish, it will make it that much easier to learn French too! Because if this is going to happen, you will have to recognize Quebec as a distinct society and accomodate all their frenchiness, n'est pas?

[Loomisfarms01]

I agree with you on their goverment, but Calderon is trying to get rid of the corruption little by little and the Mexican Peso is in need's of a improvement. But their infrastructures are up to date, like the phones, heath care systems, power systems, water systems. However the roads are in need of a update though Mexico is improving on their environment too. On the military issue Mexico has almost 200,000 troops regular duty while 24 million on resevres, but Mexico is a pacfist country, means it wants stay out of wars and conflicts, however the Mexican goverment wants to send troops to the conflict zones, but the plan is being held up in congress. But the Mexican military is improving on their military equipment and making their own systems such as FX-05 rifle, warships, UAVs, armoured vehicles, missiles, radar and other systems. On the language issue a lot of people is speaking or learning Spanish in United States and Canada along with Mexico which is speaking English or learning it. But Mexico is a developing country like India, China, Brazil and South Africa and not a third world country like everybody says, even with some major problems.

This is completely inaccurate. Have you ever been to Mexico? I’m not talking about the tourist areas either. They are artificially built up and have little to do with how regular Mexican citizens live. Trust me, I have and can tell you Mexico is squarely in the third world. The vast majority of the people live in homes no better than a shack. Roads suck, education sucks, health care sucks, clean water comes in a bottle, many places lack electrical power or the means to use it. The sanitation system is throwing your waste into your back yard or out in the street. Corruption at all levels is very bad. If you want someone to do his or her job you normally have to hand out a bribe. The unemployment rate is through the roof and their government could not care less. The welfare system in Mexico is having you move to America illegally and send home money.

“Mexico is a pacfist country” only because it lacks the economic power to do anything else. Not to mention it is more of a national police force anyway. Please remember they also have a low intensity conflict going on with their native peoples. You cannot judge their training, readiness, equipment, and true combat power off a few pictures from a parade. 95% of the military is using old, hand me down equipment that is poorly maintained, individual soldier training is horrible, and officer corruption is rampant. The best trained & equipped units are the anti-drug and that’s only because the U.S. fully trains and funds them. Even so corruption is bad and their combat effectiveness is no better than a tier three unit in our military.

It would take hundreds of trillions of dollars to bring Mexico even close to the U.S. standard.

[Railcat]

Why would Canada and Mexico give up their independance to be controlled by the US?

The EU works in a way because there isn't just one major power. In a North American union the US would be far and away the most powerful.

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah I been to Mexico. But some of your stuff on the military is inaccurate. For instance, Mexico send troops to United States to help out during the Hurricane Katrina and also sent troops to devastated tsunami areas in 2004 and other missions to natural disaster zones. Mexico wants to send troops to conflict zones, but the Mexican congress keeps holding back. So it's not a economic issue it's a politcal issue. Just look at Honduras, they are the poorest Latin American country and still sends troops to other countries including Iraq and I know their internal problems in Mexico. But like I side before I agree with on their goverment, road, pesos and other stuff.

[BloodyTalon]

Once you guys learn Spanish, it will make it that much easier to learn French too! Because if this is going to happen, you will have to recognize Quebec as a distinct society and accomodate all their frenchiness, n'est pas?
http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1166518423-PXQMK3AWZUFPVQIVPG7HORSMICMGISVZ.jpg

[Felix U. Gómez]

This is completely inaccurate. Have you ever been to Mexico? I’m not talking about the tourist areas either. They are artificially built up and have little to do with how regular Mexican citizens live. Trust me, I have and can tell you Mexico is squarely in the third world. The vast majority of the people live in homes no better than a shack. Roads suck, education sucks, health care sucks, clean water comes in a bottle, many places lack electrical power or the means to use it. The sanitation system is throwing your waste into your back yard or out in the street. Corruption at all levels is very bad. If you want someone to do his or her job you normally have to hand out a bribe. The unemployment rate is through the roof and their government could not care less. The welfare system in Mexico is having you move to America illegally and send home money.

“Mexico is a pacfist country” only because it lacks the economic power to do anything else. Not to mention it is more of a national police force anyway. Please remember they also have a low intensity conflict going on with their native peoples. You cannot judge their training, readiness, equipment, and true combat power off a few pictures from a parade. 95% of the military is using old, hand me down equipment that is poorly maintained, individual soldier training is horrible, and officer corruption is rampant. The best trained & equipped units are the anti-drug and that’s only because the U.S. fully trains and funds them. Even so corruption is bad and their combat effectiveness is no better than a tier three unit in our military.

It would take hundreds of trillions of dollars to bring Mexico even close to the U.S. standard.

Just exactly where in Mexico have you been in buddy? My guess is you were drunk and ended up in another continent. Have you ever been to Monterrey, Chihuahua, Guadalajara, Querétaro, Puebla or any other major Mexican City? I don't think so by your writing. Look anyone up on Wikipedia and look for the shacks. My guess is you read a lot of fiction. The city I live in has a better sanitation service that it's US counterpart across the border. While on the US side they get their trash picked up only once a week, ours is privatized and gets picked up three times a week. The Mexican Institute of Social Security (IMSS) covers 50 million people, and while it isn't perfect our average life expectancy is 75.6 years while in the US it is 78. Not bad for a "third world country".
Your figures on our military are also way, way way off, it is very professional. Also, your "hundreds of trillions of dollars" theoryis all f%$^d up. Why didn't you just say bijillions or bugabuganillions? You're just wacking off.
As for not wanting your kids to learn Spanish, that's up to you, and indeed better for us, as it will make our kids more competitive and better prepared than yours since we are not opposed to having our kids learn English in school.
Also, I don't think that a vast majority of Mexicans would be willing to give up our sovereignty for US domination.

[Loomisfarms01]

Just exactly where in Mexico have you been in buddy? My guess is you were drunk and ended up in another continent. Have you ever been to Monterrey, Chihuahua, Guadalajara, Querétaro, Puebla or any other major Mexican City? I don't think so by your writing. Look anyone up on Wikipedia and look for the shacks. My guess is you read a lot of fiction. The city I live in has a better sanitation service that it's US counterpart across the border. While on the US side they get their trash picked up only once a week, ours is privatized and gets picked up three times a week. The Mexican Institute of Social Security (IMSS) covers 50 million people, and while it isn't perfect our average life expectancy is 75.6 years while in the US it is 78. Not bad for a "third world country".
Your figures on our military are also way, way way off, it is very professional. Also, your "hundreds of trillions of dollars" theoryis all f%$^d up. Why didn't you just say bijillions or bugabuganillions? You're just wacking off.
As for not wanting your kids to learn Spanish, that's up to you, and indeed better for us, as it will make our kids more competitive and better prepared than yours since we are not opposed to having our kids learn English in school.
Also, I don't think that a vast majority of Mexicans would be willing to give up our sovereignty for US domination.

Your dreaming.

I spent over two years traveling around Mexico when my father worked for a relief agency.


- In 2002 statistics:

- 50% living below the U.N recogoized poverty level
- 20% living below the U.N. extreme poverty level
- Around 10 percent still live on less than one dollar a day, a level close to that found in some of the world's poorest countries.
-Access to sanitation services 26 percent
- Access to clean drinking water drinking water 58 percent
- While almost 70 percent of the moderate poor have their own house, only 5 percent indicated that they were paying for their house, which is an indicator of the predominantly self-financed purchase and construction process. Hint - It's a home built shack.

While you might be wealthy and living comfortably by Mexican standards the vast majority of your country is not.

[Felix U. Gómez]

First, I am middle class and not rich (which is none of your damm business as I don't care whether you live in a trailer park (which are quite common in your country) or in Beverly Hills).
In your previous post you generalized quite a bit about my country and spoke as though you were some sort of authority on it. For example, you said: "The vast majority of people live in homes no better than a shack." That is f@#%g bull****. I don't deny that people that live in extreme poverty levels might live in homes like that especially in the outer rings of many cities, but to state that "the vast majority", you're just letting your prejudices, your misconceptions and the image that Hollywood has painted of us take over. Most workers have access to government loans through the Infonavit and eventually earn enough credits to purchase a home (with brick walls, concrete floor and concrete ceilings). During the term of President Fox more than three million low income families obtained homes.
"Housing was among Vicente Fox's top priorities. By 2006, the Infonavit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Infonavit&action=edit), the federal fund for workers' housing, had 60% "market share" in the mortgage business, granting 435,000 credits a year, with an expected yearly growth of 24%."[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox#_note-30)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox)
You state that education sucks. Granted it is not up to Japanese or many European standards, but I went to public schools in Mexico and it greatly depends on the state, the city, and what part of the city you are in (just like in the US (whose schools results compare poorly to other first world countries). So don't come and tell me that you are an expert on the Mexican education system because you know nothing about it. We have a lot of good public and private universities all over the country. Many with good recognition outside of Mexico. UNAM is ranked among the world's 100 best. That, and the fact that our universities, especially the public ones are way more afordable than yours. Here in my city, the medical school is full of foreigners (the majority Americans who wouldn't be able to aford such an education in your country).
Corruption in my country is a fact, though nowhere near what you say. I don't hand out bribes, never done so and never will. If you do things straight, things always turn out better. Foreigners (especially from the US) on the other hand are very loving of handing out bribes even for the simplest things (which is illegal in Mexico). We have a saying here that goes "tanto peca el que mata la vaca como el que le detiene la pata", meaning that the person that pays the bribe is as guilty as the one taking it. And just like we have some very corrupt officials, we also have some very honest and dedicated ones, begining with the president. I don't think (by what I hear on the news all the time) that the US is excempt of corruption at all leves of government (or would you like me to give you some examples?).
You said the unemployment rate is through the roof. Based on what statistics? You could tell all that by traveling with your missionary dad for two years (I don't believe that you traveled much by your ignorance, and any way that doesn't earn you a Ph.D. or a masters degree). During the first semester of 2007 470,000 new "formal" jobs were created (by formal it means that the employers were paying IMSS taxes for their new workers).
http://www.economista.com.mx/sinprivilegios/articulos/2007-07-20-40902
You say that the peso sucks, but in reality it has stayed pretty strong and stable for the past ten years, at times loosing and at times gaining against the dollar.
Your information is outdated and based on your experience as a snot nosed kid following his daddie around while visiting only poor areas of Mexico. If I visited only poor crime riden areas of your country, I would develop and image such as yours. Whenever you like, I would be willing to give you a tour of my part of Mexico. You also presume that we are a country stuck in time. I have lived and traveled here for 39 years. I have considerably more experience and knowledge than you. I have seen many changes happen in that time and can tell you that we are moving forward.
The other thing is that even the poorest areas of Mexico have a grace and charm that surpaces your country, and are richer in culture too. While every city in your country seems to be a carbon copy of the next one (Walmart, McDonald's, Burger King), cities in the poorest Mexican states like Oaxaca, have tradition, cuisine, artcrafts, buildings, museums and history that would blow you away.
Your math and economics also are way off. "It would take hundreds of trillions of dollars to bring Mexico up to US standards". Can you even write a trillion? Do you have any idea how much the GDP of the US is? The US doesn't have 100's of trillions of dollars! You're dreaming. You're just throwing out figures presuming no one will question them. Grow up, go to school, travel, do some learning before you speak. Burro.

[MichaelF]

You say that the peso sucks, but in reality it has stayed pretty strong and stable for the past ten years, at times loosing and at times gaining against the dollar..

The Peso doesn't suck (being a relatively stable currency, now among the 15 most traded currency units in the world, and is the most traded currency in Latin America. ). However, due to the lack of a 24hr Discovery on the price makes the kind of currency union being discussed here impossible in the short term (it took the EU decades, and many compromises, to synchronize their monetary systems IOT make the jump to a common currency).

That isn't to say that the picture is all roses. After the 1994–1995 economic crisis, 50% of the population fell into poverty. A rapid growth in exports propitiated by NAFTA and other trade agreements, and the restructuring of the macroeconomic finances initiated during Zedillo's and continued during Fox's administration had significant results in the reduction of the poverty rate. According to the World Bank, extreme poverty was reduced to 17.6% in 2004. Most of this reduction was achieved in rural communities whose rate of poverty declined from 42% to 27.9% in the 2000–2004 period, although urban poverty stagnated at 11%.

The main problem indicator is the fact that remittances (cash flowing into Mexico from expatriot Mexicans) are a large (and growing) chunk of the overall economy. In 2004, they became the second largest source of foreign income after crude oil exports, roughly equivalent to foreign direct investment (FDI) and larger than tourism expenditures; and represented 2.5 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.

This is bad because it indicates the lack of capital and entrepreneurial capability on the domestic front (i.e. upward economic mobility is not readily available in-country). There is no economic reason for this, just the end product of decades of neglect and political corruption (the PRI had it's nose in the trough for far too long, IMO).

My biggest issue with the future outlook for Mexico is that Mexico has the lowest number of researchers of the OECD countries, with only 4.8 researchers per 10,000 inhabitants. Mexico trains only three PhDs per million habitants. This is a problem in a Century in which much of the global economy is driven by technological innovation.

I do like what the PAN has done in the last few years. They appear to be at least fairly serious about dragging Mexico into some form of parity with Canada and the US. Securing their side of the Border would be a massive plus in the Mexico/US dialogue.

Overall impression of Mexico's future: Guarded, but positive.

[bigeah]

sorry for stupid questions but just for better understanding:

1: is that a try to get only a tax-free market for USA exports and imported resourses?

2: is that a try to get new political and millitary expansion of USA?

3: or is it realy a try to get a new "free-will union" like EU?

[Felix U. Gómez]

The Peso doesn't suck (being a relatively stable currency, now among the 15 most traded currency units in the world, and is the most traded currency in Latin America. ). However, due to the lack of a 24hr Discovery on the price makes the kind of currency union being discussed here impossible in the short term (it took the EU decades, and many compromises, to synchronize their monetary systems IOT make the jump to a common currency).

That isn't to say that the picture is all roses. After the 1994–1995 economic crisis, 50% of the population fell into poverty. A rapid growth in exports propitiated by NAFTA and other trade agreements, and the restructuring of the macroeconomic finances initiated during Zedillo's and continued during Fox's administration had significant results in the reduction of the poverty rate. According to the World Bank, extreme poverty was reduced to 17.6% in 2004. Most of this reduction was achieved in rural communities whose rate of poverty declined from 42% to 27.9% in the 2000–2004 period, although urban poverty stagnated at 11%.

The main problem indicator is the fact that remittances (cash flowing into Mexico from expatriot Mexicans) are a large (and growing) chunk of the overall economy. In 2004, they became the second largest source of foreign income after crude oil exports, roughly equivalent to foreign direct investment (FDI) and larger than tourism expenditures; and represented 2.5 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.

This is bad because it indicates the lack of capital and entrepreneurial capability on the domestic front (i.e. upward economic mobility is not readily available in-country). There is no economic reason for this, just the end product of decades of neglect and political corruption (the PRI had it's nose in the trough for far too long, IMO).

My biggest issue with the future outlook for Mexico is that Mexico has the lowest number of researchers of the OECD countries, with only 4.8 researchers per 10,000 inhabitants. Mexico trains only three PhDs per million habitants. This is a problem in a Century in which much of the global economy is driven by technological innovation.

I do like what the PAN has done in the last few years. They appear to be at least fairly serious about dragging Mexico into some form of parity with Canada and the US. Securing their side of the Border would be a massive plus in the Mexico/US dialogue.

Overall impression of Mexico's future: Guarded, but positive.

I agree with most of what you say MichaelF, it shows that you are well informed and not just inventing figures. I would like to know where you got the figure for Mexico training three PhDs per every one million inhabitants. I asked my wife, she's a PhD in Social Sciences fro UAM, and she said that the figure was plausible (about 300 new PhDs per year) but that she would check the fact for me. I know that in her university and in others across the country PhD programs are being added and expanded that weren't there several years ago. Her PhD did not cost her one cent, it was fully paid by government programs like Conacyt (Consejo Nacional de Ciencia y Tecnología) and by her university. So the Mexican government is putting money into programs like this, though like everything it needs more.
I also agree that PAN is doing more and better than PRI towards pushing Mexico towards parity with the US and Canada. Key to doing this would be to achieve the structural reforms that Mexico needs, like fiscal, labor, and state reforms, but this is in the hands of the Mexican Congress where PAN doesn't hold a majority (206 seats out of 500). If these reforms are passed then the process of catching up will be accelerated and we could begin talking about some form of union in the future. President Calderón announced a very ambitious infrastructure building plan for the remainder of his six year term but it is tied to the passing of his proposed fiscal reform: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20070718-1315-mexico-economy-infrastructure.html
As for Mexico securing its side of the border what do you mean? Do you mean for things illegally entering the country or for people exiting the country? If it is the latter you would find an obstacle in the Mexican Constitution which has had for a long time ,as one of our "Individual Guarantees" (sort of like your Bill of Rights), the freedom of transit throughout the Republic. You see, as a Mexican citizen you are free to travel across Mexico with no impediment, in Mexico people that choose emmigrate outside of the country are not illegal and have done nothing illegal within Mexico. Their illegal action starts once they step onto US territory and not when they step out of Mexican territory. Trying to limit the freedom of transit in Mexico would be similar to your government trying to away your right to bear arms. A better solution for this would be to provide enough jobs within the country. The fiscal reform is key as you can build more infrastructure to attract more investment. Its a cycle.
My prediction for the future is positive, even if slowly, but positive. When I was young a lot of people thought that we would never have democracy in Mexico, that to get rid of the PRI would be imposible. I participated in the strougle to democratize my country, we never gave up and we achieved it. So I know that progress is possible, and as long as we don't fall into a cycle of violence (which most Mexicans don't desire for their country), we will achieve our goals.

[Shadowstorm]

Well I hope Mexico has strong democracy in the future.

[MichaelF]

I would like to know where you got the figure for Mexico training three PhDs per every one million inhabitants.

EU report:

http://ec.europa.eu/research/iscp/countries/mexico/mx-doc2.pdf


In what concerns human scientific capital, Mexico has the lowest
concentration of researchers in OECD countries, with only 6 researchers per
10,000 inhabitants, compared to 48 in Korea and 29 in Poland.

[MichaelF]

As for Mexico securing its side of the border what do you mean? Do you mean for things illegally entering the country or for people exiting the country?

Specifically, the Drug Gangs using the Mexican side of the Border as a safe-haven, essentially coopting Mexican sovereignty to shield themselves from investigation and pursuit.

Also, the participation of Federal Police and Military personnel in the movement of drugs (and, to a lesser extent, illegal aliens) across the Border.

Both are Mexican problems that require a Mexican solution. One is a law and order question (Mexico must control what occurs on Mexican soil), the second is a corruption problem (Police and Military personnel being bribed into participating in criminal activities).

The Gang problem seems to be under scrutiny by the Mexican government, especially with the murders and assaults on Police personnel by the Gangs.

The rogue Police and Military problem is largely seen (from the US POV) as being ignored. The testimony of our own Border and Police personnel is particularly damning.

The Gangs are accepted as a matter of criminals being criminals, but the incursions by Mexican military and police personnel, in support of the drug runners, gives the impression that Mexico is a hostile neighbour (mucho airtime on CNN and FOXNews, with little effective rebuttal by the Mexican Embassy).

Personally, I'd say that President Calderone repeating what he has done in Michoacan (sending the troops in to confront the gangs) in, say, Chihuahua or Sonora (widely seen as being the primary area for the gang's drug activity), would go a long way towards renovating the image of Mexico within the US conciousness.

My $0.02

[sinophile]

To my critics... I'm not proposing a unified government, just a unified currency and uniformity of economic and trade related law and regs.
Its fine if you hate that idea.. there's just the small inevitable matter of falling to the 5th largest economy in the next 10 years behind the EU, China, India and OPEC. I say OPEC because when they're in synch their essentially an economic player on par with the G6.

While the rest of the world is leveraging relative cheap labor and valuable natural resources to put the squeeze on the US and others, the US is closing its borders to cheap labor and celebrating barriers toward exploiting the natural resources they have. Even a highly productive financial sector is being cut-off at the knees by Sarbanes-Oxley and the approaching increased taxation of private equity gains. Just a sampling of the supremely self-destructive attitude prevailing in the US at the moment.
An economic union doesn't get rid of the problem, but it offers a lot of options for economic growth to mitigate the symptoms.

[Dragunov]

Specifically, the Drug Gangs using the Mexican side of the Border as a safe-haven, essentially coopting Mexican sovereignty to shield themselves from investigation and pursuit.

Also, the participation of Federal Police and Military personnel in the movement of drugs (and, to a lesser extent, illegal aliens) across the Border.

Both are Mexican problems that require a Mexican solution. One is a law and order question (Mexico must control what occurs on Mexican soil), the second is a corruption problem (Police and Military personnel being bribed into participating in criminal activities).

The Gang problem seems to be under scrutiny by the Mexican government, especially with the murders and assaults on Police personnel by the Gangs.

The rogue Police and Military problem is largely seen (from the US POV) as being ignored. The testimony of our own Border and Police personnel is particularly damning.

The Gangs are accepted as a matter of criminals being criminals, but the incursions by Mexican military and police personnel, in support of the drug runners, gives the impression that Mexico is a hostile neighbour (mucho airtime on CNN and FOXNews, with little effective rebuttal by the Mexican Embassy).

Personally, I'd say that President Calderone repeating what he has done in Michoacan (sending the troops in to confront the gangs) in, say, Chihuahua or Sonora (widely seen as being the primary area for the gang's drug activity), would go a long way towards renovating the image of Mexico within the US conciousness.

My $0.02

I read a lot of BS in this guy's posts about Mexico. Extremely prejudgemental.

[MichaelF]

I read a lot of BS in this guy's posts about Mexico. Extremely prejudgemental.

?

I suppose you just flipped past all the items I pointed out as being massively positive developments, straight to the criticisms?

Mexico is neither a Utopia nor a 3rd World hellhole. Like every Nation, there are things going well (positive developments), and problems which must be addressed in order for forward progress to be made.

[CombatParatrooper]

Then I would guess that all of the illegals in Houston will be leaving soon....:roll:
First, I am middle class and not rich (which is none of your damm business as I don't care whether you live in a trailer park (which are quite common in your country) or in Beverly Hills).
In your previous post you generalized quite a bit about my country and spoke as though you were some sort of authority on it. For example, you said: "The vast majority of people live in homes no better than a shack." That is f@#%g bull****. I don't deny that people that live in extreme poverty levels might live in homes like that especially in the outer rings of many cities, but to state that "the vast majority", you're just letting your prejudices, your misconceptions and the image that Hollywood has painted of us take over. Most workers have access to government loans through the Infonavit and eventually earn enough credits to purchase a home (with brick walls, concrete floor and concrete ceilings). During the term of President Fox more than three million low income families obtained homes.
"Housing was among Vicente Fox's top priorities. By 2006, the Infonavit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Infonavit&action=edit), the federal fund for workers' housing, had 60% "market share" in the mortgage business, granting 435,000 credits a year, with an expected yearly growth of 24%."[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox#_note-30)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox)
You state that education sucks. Granted it is not up to Japanese or many European standards, but I went to public schools in Mexico and it greatly depends on the state, the city, and what part of the city you are in (just like in the US (whose schools results compare poorly to other first world countries). So don't come and tell me that you are an expert on the Mexican education system because you know nothing about it. We have a lot of good public and private universities all over the country. Many with good recognition outside of Mexico. UNAM is ranked among the world's 100 best. That, and the fact that our universities, especially the public ones are way more afordable than yours. Here in my city, the medical school is full of foreigners (the majority Americans who wouldn't be able to aford such an education in your country).
Corruption in my country is a fact, though nowhere near what you say. I don't hand out bribes, never done so and never will. If you do things straight, things always turn out better. Foreigners (especially from the US) on the other hand are very loving of handing out bribes even for the simplest things (which is illegal in Mexico). We have a saying here that goes "tanto peca el que mata la vaca como el que le detiene la pata", meaning that the person that pays the bribe is as guilty as the one taking it. And just like we have some very corrupt officials, we also have some very honest and dedicated ones, begining with the president. I don't think (by what I hear on the news all the time) that the US is excempt of corruption at all leves of government (or would you like me to give you some examples?).
You said the unemployment rate is through the roof. Based on what statistics? You could tell all that by traveling with your missionary dad for two years (I don't believe that you traveled much by your ignorance, and any way that doesn't earn you a Ph.D. or a masters degree). During the first semester of 2007 470,000 new "formal" jobs were created (by formal it means that the employers were paying IMSS taxes for their new workers).
http://www.economista.com.mx/sinprivilegios/articulos/2007-07-20-40902
You say that the peso sucks, but in reality it has stayed pretty strong and stable for the past ten years, at times loosing and at times gaining against the dollar.
Your information is outdated and based on your experience as a snot nosed kid following his daddie around while visiting only poor areas of Mexico. If I visited only poor crime riden areas of your country, I would develop and image such as yours. Whenever you like, I would be willing to give you a tour of my part of Mexico. You also presume that we are a country stuck in time. I have lived and traveled here for 39 years. I have considerably more experience and knowledge than you. I have seen many changes happen in that time and can tell you that we are moving forward.
The other thing is that even the poorest areas of Mexico have a grace and charm that surpaces your country, and are richer in culture too. While every city in your country seems to be a carbon copy of the next one (Walmart, McDonald's, Burger King), cities in the poorest Mexican states like Oaxaca, have tradition, cuisine, artcrafts, buildings, museums and history that would blow you away.
Your math and economics also are way off. "It would take hundreds of trillions of dollars to bring Mexico up to US standards". Can you even write a trillion? Do you have any idea how much the GDP of the US is? The US doesn't have 100's of trillions of dollars! You're dreaming. You're just throwing out figures presuming no one will question them. Grow up, go to school, travel, do some learning before you speak. Burro.

[MichaelF]

To my critics... I'm not proposing a unified government, just a unified currency and uniformity of economic and trade related law and regs.


A monetary union deprives the component members of the ability to adjust interest rates to reflect their local economies. Canada and Mexico have different IR requirements, and both have massively different requirements from the 11x larger US economy.

This is one of the main stressors on the Euro, and few of the EU economies are as offscale as Mexico/Canada (~$1 Trillion GDP each) versus the US (~$13.2 Trillion GDP).

That aside, if it did happen, the value jump (caused by the $US value averaging the new currency upward) would put millions of Mexicans and Canadians out of work, as labor costs rise (Canada is already watching their $CAN rise to near-parity with the $US, which is beginning to impact tourism).

[ren0312]

To my critics... I'm not proposing a unified government, just a unified currency and uniformity of economic and trade related law and regs.
Its fine if you hate that idea.. there's just the small inevitable matter of falling to the 5th largest economy in the next 10 years behind the EU, China, India and OPEC. I say OPEC because when they're in synch their essentially an economic player on par with the G6.



While the rest of the world is leveraging relative cheap labor and valuable natural resources to put the squeeze on the US and others, the US is closing its borders to cheap labor and celebrating barriers toward exploiting the natural resources they have. Even a highly productive financial sector is being cut-off at the knees by Sarbanes-Oxley and the approaching increased taxation of private equity gains. Just a sampling of the supremely self-destructive attitude prevailing in the US at the moment.
An economic union doesn't get rid of the problem, but it offers a lot of options for economic growth to mitigate the symptoms.

Those two countries have a population larger than the United States, nand have a population that is twice as large as the US, Mexico, and Canada combined, so it only only expected that their economies will reach parity with the US someday, but even at that level, their standard of living will only be up to level to say South Korea, or Slovenia, even if their economy is as large as the US, simply because of the fact that their cpopulation is so large, so they can reach economic parity with the US in terms of the size of their economy even if their per capita GNP is several times lower, say three times lower, Mexico's population is expected to stabilize in the coming decades as its fertility rate is already nearing the replacemnt rate, so you can expect the flow of immigration from Mexico to taper off sharply soon, the pooint is that even if the US, Mexico, and Canada were to from some sort of an economic union, their population is still stoo small to compete with the EU, never mind China or India, and besides, as the living standards or China and India increase, the cost of labor will too, so eventually the outsourcing of jobs from industrialized countries to Chaina and India will slow down somewhat. I think that North America should not have any economic union that is closer than what NAFTA provides right now, mainly free trade between the members, but separate currencies, monetary and fiscal policies, on the subject of immigration, I think it should be controlled, to say no more than 0.12 percent of the population in terms of net immigration, but priority should be given to highly skilled migrants which contribute the most to a nation's economy, contrary to the present US policy of giving priority to family members of immgrants.

[ren0312]

First, I am middle class and not rich (which is none of your damm business as I don't care whether you live in a trailer park (which are quite common in your country) or in Beverly Hills).
In your previous post you generalized quite a bit about my country and spoke as though you were some sort of authority on it. For example, you said: "The vast majority of people live in homes no better than a shack." That is f@#%g bull****. I don't deny that people that live in extreme poverty levels might live in homes like that especially in the outer rings of many cities, but to state that "the vast majority", you're just letting your prejudices, your misconceptions and the image that Hollywood has painted of us take over. Most workers have access to government loans through the Infonavit and eventually earn enough credits to purchase a home (with brick walls, concrete floor and concrete ceilings). During the term of President Fox more than three million low income families obtained homes.
"Housing was among Vicente Fox's top priorities. By 2006, the Infonavit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Infonavit&action=edit), the federal fund for workers' housing, had 60% "market share" in the mortgage business, granting 435,000 credits a year, with an expected yearly growth of 24%."[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox#_note-30)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox)
You state that education sucks. Granted it is not up to Japanese or many European standards, but I went to public schools in Mexico and it greatly depends on the state, the city, and what part of the city you are in (just like in the US (whose schools results compare poorly to other first world countries). So don't come and tell me that you are an expert on the Mexican education system because you know nothing about it. We have a lot of good public and private universities all over the country. Many with good recognition outside of Mexico. UNAM is ranked among the world's 100 best. That, and the fact that our universities, especially the public ones are way more afordable than yours. Here in my city, the medical school is full of foreigners (the majority Americans who wouldn't be able to aford such an education in your country).
Corruption in my country is a fact, though nowhere near what you say. I don't hand out bribes, never done so and never will. If you do things straight, things always turn out better. Foreigners (especially from the US) on the other hand are very loving of handing out bribes even for the simplest things (which is illegal in Mexico). We have a saying here that goes "tanto peca el que mata la vaca como el que le detiene la pata", meaning that the person that pays the bribe is as guilty as the one taking it. And just like we have some very corrupt officials, we also have some very honest and dedicated ones, begining with the president. I don't think (by what I hear on the news all the time) that the US is excempt of corruption at all leves of government (or would you like me to give you some examples?).
You said the unemployment rate is through the roof. Based on what statistics? You could tell all that by traveling with your missionary dad for two years (I don't believe that you traveled much by your ignorance, and any way that doesn't earn you a Ph.D. or a masters degree). During the first semester of 2007 470,000 new "formal" jobs were created (by formal it means that the employers were paying IMSS taxes for their new workers).
http://www.economista.com.mx/sinprivilegios/articulos/2007-07-20-40902
You say that the peso sucks, but in reality it has stayed pretty strong and stable for the past ten years, at times loosing and at times gaining against the dollar.
Your information is outdated and based on your experience as a snot nosed kid following his daddie around while visiting only poor areas of Mexico. If I visited only poor crime riden areas of your country, I would develop and image such as yours. Whenever you like, I would be willing to give you a tour of my part of Mexico. You also presume that we are a country stuck in time. I have lived and traveled here for 39 years. I have considerably more experience and knowledge than you. I have seen many changes happen in that time and can tell you that we are moving forward.
The other thing is that even the poorest areas of Mexico have a grace and charm that surpaces your country, and are richer in culture too. While every city in your country seems to be a carbon copy of the next one (Walmart, McDonald's, Burger King), cities in the poorest Mexican states like Oaxaca, have tradition, cuisine, artcrafts, buildings, museums and history that would blow you away.
Your math and economics also are way off. "It would take hundreds of trillions of dollars to bring Mexico up to US standards". Can you even write a trillion? Do you have any idea how much the GDP of the US is? The US doesn't have 100's of trillions of dollars! You're dreaming. You're just throwing out figures presuming no one will question them. Grow up, go to school, travel, do some learning before you speak. Burro.

I do not think the econmic picture in Mexico is as rosy as you present it, certainly Mexico still faces a lot of problems in its economy, such as a high unemployment rate, a very slow growing economy(an economy with a standard of living of Mexico's should be growing at about 8 percent a year, versus Mexico's 3.5 percent growth rate, and a very high level of inequality, with regards to its military, I think based on its GDP, that it can afford to have a better military than what it has now, I think 2 percent of GDP is a very reasonable budget for Mexico's military. I know that according tio the CIA World Factbook that Mexico's unemployment rate is only 3.2 percent, but considering how slowly Mexico's economy is growing, that just does not seem right, I would like to see the underemployment rate for Mexico, since I suspect that a lot of those who are listed as being employed are actually underemployed, so in actuality, Mexico's unemployment rate may be a lot higher, say 9 percent, the government may have padded the unemployment statistics, again this is based on the fact that Mexico's very slow rate of economic growth does not justify this very low rate of unemployment, and Mexico's population growth rate is on the high side also.

[Johnny_H02]

God Damn that idea to hell, I have no beef with America of Americans but dammit as a Canadian I find this idea offensive. I am a Canadian. My home land is a independent one that speaks English and French, shares a common history with both, Independent from both Great Britain and The United States of America, She is both ruled by its own people, and headed by Queen Elizabeth II ( even if only symbolically ). She is a country that stands on her own two feet, and may not impact the world all by herself always shows her worth when needed both politically and militarily. I would hate to see this tarnished or diminished in anyway shape or form.

If this were to happen I would make it my life goal to be a permanent resident of the United Kingdom. Neighbors and Allies we may be but I would not want to be "American" by any stretch of the imagination.

Nothing wrong with being one, its just not who I am and its surely not what previous generations have sacrificed to save and defend.

[Shadowstorm]

Will atleast Mexico's is getting better since 10 years ago, even though with drug wars going on. But other than that, it improving.

[Johnny_H02]

Edward Brock will turn over in his grave should this ever come to Fruition.

[Shadowstorm]

God Damn that idea to hell, I have no beef with America of Americans but dammit as a Canadian I am in fact a Canadian. My home land is a independent one from both Great Britain and The United States of America, She is both ruled by its own people, and headed by Queen Elizabeth II ( even if only symbolically ).

If this were to happen I would make it my life goal to be a permanent resident of the United Kingdom. Neighbors and Allies we may be but I would not want to be "American" by any stretch of the imagination.

Nothing wrong with being one, its just not who I am and its surely not what previous generations have sacrificed to save and defend.
I very doubt United States, Canada and Mexico would merge to be supercountry, that's what a lot of believe, but ain't true. Because the three countries want to be by their selfs. The reason they want to form a North American Union to help each other on trade, economics, military, security issues just like the European Union.

[Johnny_H02]

I very doubt United States, Canada and Mexico would merge to be supercountry, that's what a lot of believe, but ain't true. Because the three countries want to be by their selfs. The reason they want to form a North American Union to help each other on trade, economics, military, security issues just like the European Union.

They have already tried it with all of those.
NORAD for North American defense
Trade? lol NAFTA? Horrible failure but meh least they/we tried.
Security is already tightened and is getting tighter.

No North American Union even needed in concept.

[Shadowstorm]

Well Mexico is not involved with NORAD and is planning to join. On NAFTA, that was a "double edge sword" which help in some parts, but it was bad too.

[waterdog]

First, I am middle class and not rich (which is none of your damm business as I don't care whether you live in a trailer park (which are quite common in your country) or in Beverly Hills).
In your previous post you generalized quite a bit about my country and spoke as though you were some sort of authority on it. For example, you said: "The vast majority of people live in homes no better than a shack." That is f@#%g bull****. I don't deny that people that live in extreme poverty levels might live in homes like that especially in the outer rings of many cities, but to state that "the vast majority", you're just letting your prejudices, your misconceptions and the image that Hollywood has painted of us take over. Most workers have access to government loans through the Infonavit and eventually earn enough credits to purchase a home (with brick walls, concrete floor and concrete ceilings). During the term of President Fox more than three million low income families obtained homes.
"Housing was among Vicente Fox's top priorities. By 2006, the Infonavit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Infonavit&action=edit), the federal fund for workers' housing, had 60% "market share" in the mortgage business, granting 435,000 credits a year, with an expected yearly growth of 24%."[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox#_note-30)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox)
You state that education sucks. Granted it is not up to Japanese or many European standards, but I went to public schools in Mexico and it greatly depends on the state, the city, and what part of the city you are in (just like in the US (whose schools results compare poorly to other first world countries). So don't come and tell me that you are an expert on the Mexican education system because you know nothing about it. We have a lot of good public and private universities all over the country. Many with good recognition outside of Mexico. UNAM is ranked among the world's 100 best. That, and the fact that our universities, especially the public ones are way more afordable than yours. Here in my city, the medical school is full of foreigners (the majority Americans who wouldn't be able to aford such an education in your country).
Corruption in my country is a fact, though nowhere near what you say. I don't hand out bribes, never done so and never will. If you do things straight, things always turn out better. Foreigners (especially from the US) on the other hand are very loving of handing out bribes even for the simplest things (which is illegal in Mexico). We have a saying here that goes "tanto peca el que mata la vaca como el que le detiene la pata", meaning that the person that pays the bribe is as guilty as the one taking it. And just like we have some very corrupt officials, we also have some very honest and dedicated ones, begining with the president. I don't think (by what I hear on the news all the time) that the US is excempt of corruption at all leves of government (or would you like me to give you some examples?).
You said the unemployment rate is through the roof. Based on what statistics? You could tell all that by traveling with your missionary dad for two years (I don't believe that you traveled much by your ignorance, and any way that doesn't earn you a Ph.D. or a masters degree). During the first semester of 2007 470,000 new "formal" jobs were created (by formal it means that the employers were paying IMSS taxes for their new workers).
http://www.economista.com.mx/sinprivilegios/articulos/2007-07-20-40902
You say that the peso sucks, but in reality it has stayed pretty strong and stable for the past ten years, at times loosing and at times gaining against the dollar.
Your information is outdated and based on your experience as a snot nosed kid following his daddie around while visiting only poor areas of Mexico. If I visited only poor crime riden areas of your country, I would develop and image such as yours. Whenever you like, I would be willing to give you a tour of my part of Mexico. You also presume that we are a country stuck in time. I have lived and traveled here for 39 years. I have considerably more experience and knowledge than you. I have seen many changes happen in that time and can tell you that we are moving forward.
The other thing is that even the poorest areas of Mexico have a grace and charm that surpaces your country, and are richer in culture too. While every city in your country seems to be a carbon copy of the next one (Walmart, McDonald's, Burger King), cities in the poorest Mexican states like Oaxaca, have tradition, cuisine, artcrafts, buildings, museums and history that would blow you away.
Your math and economics also are way off. "It would take hundreds of trillions of dollars to bring Mexico up to US standards". Can you even write a trillion? Do you have any idea how much the GDP of the US is? The US doesn't have 100's of trillions of dollars! You're dreaming. You're just throwing out figures presuming no one will question them. Grow up, go to school, travel, do some learning before you speak. Burro.


Yup, Mexico is a great place to live...hahaahaha!

We got about 20 million of your fellow citizens here in the US who would say you're FOS.

[Shadowstorm]

Okay guys. Keep immigration out of this debate, were talking about North American Union and not immigration or which country is better or not.

[Dragunov]

Yup, Mexico is a great place to live...hahaahaha!

We got about 20 million of your fellow citizens here in the US who would say you're FOS.


Is the same thing. I know alot of my fellow Mexicans who moved to the US illegally and a few years later they come back. Life is expensive in the USA(insurance, taxes,etc). They almost lived in the same grade of poverty as they did in Mexico. The only way you can get around in the USA is if you live with another 10 people in the same apartment and ride with the sam epeople to work.

[waterdog]

Is the same thing. I know alot of my fellow Mexicans who moved to the US illegally and a few years later they come back. Life is expensive in the USA(insurance, taxes,etc). They almost lived in the same grade of poverty as they did in Mexico. The only way you can get around in the USA is if you live with another 10 people in the same apartment and ride with the sam epeople to work.


"insurance"? "taxes"?

I would be willing to bet less than 50% have anykind of auto insurance, and on any tax forms they might fill out, they most likely put down 9 dependants and then never file. As soon as they have kids they run down and get them signed up for welfare. They name their kids exactly the same as themselves, and then use the kids SS#.

This is gonna end real quick here in AZ.

All done!

[Shadowstorm]

Like I said before, keep immigration out of this debate.

[Dinivan]

Rockefeller was not talking about a political global government, the video has omitted the last paragraph of what he was saying... that has a name, manipulation

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yup, Mexico is a great place to live...hahaahaha!

We got about 20 million of your fellow citizens here in the US who would say you're FOS.

Mexico is a kickass place to live dork. Just ask the more than 1 million U.S. citizens that call Mexico home. Do a little research before opening your crap hole to speak. Mexico is the foreign country in which more U.S. citizens chose to live and retire in.
http://azbilingualed.org/AABE%20Site/AABE--News%202004/more_americans_take_retirement_i.htm

[h22chen]

All hail new Britannia! p-)

[MichaelF]

http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/r_eagle_lib_20amero_pl.jpg

http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/dc-coin_alt_currency_list_files/image003.jpg

Dun dun dunnnnn!

[Felix U. Gómez]

I think that the eagle would look cooler with a snake in its beak. I don't know, that's just me. p-)

[Dragunov]

http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/r_eagle_lib_20amero_pl.jpg

http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/dc-coin_alt_currency_list_files/image003.jpg

Dun dun dunnnnn!


That just looks so canadian.

[bryanleu2002]

This is where it started !! Deaniel carr is renound for creating controversiel coins

in which he explains in this link

http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/ftsd.html (http://www.designscomputed.com/coins/ftsd.html)

Coin Designs by Daniel Carr.

Freedom Tower Silver Dollar.

In 2004 I was contracted by National Collectors Mint (NCM), a coin marketing company, to design a "Freedom Tower Silver Dollar". After submitting the designs, NCM began their marketing campaign. I disagreed with their tactics and I suspended my relationship with them. Shortly after that, New York Attorney General Elliot Spitzer banned sales of the coins and imposed a fine on NCM. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Tower_Silver_Dollar) contains information about the history and controversies surrounding these coins.
Shown below are images of the different coins issued by NCM. I created the original basic designs (note "DC" designer's initials at lower right). Legends were changed and other modifications (such as the addition of extra buildings in 2007) were made to the designs outside of my control. Sunshine Minting did the actual striking.
These items have a collector following, in spite of (or perhaps as a result of) their controversial nature. Most collectors are aware only of the silver plated issues. I created this reference page to document the different varieties that were produced.



"THE AMERO" IS REAL;
I HAVE ONE TO PROVE IT!

UNITED STATES, CANADA AND MEXICO TO BE MERGED INTO SINGLE NEW ENTITY NAMED NORTH AMERICAN UNION!

By: Hal Turner


Three weeks ago, I published a brief snippet on the front page of my web site reporting the governments of the US Canada and Mexico are conspiring in secret to merge the three nations into a new entity called the North American Union.

There has been much talk of this on various internet blogs for over a year. Most of those blogs have been smeared as "conspiracy theorists" and have been largely ignored by the main stream.

What prompted my interest in the issue was money: I was sent professional images of actual AMERO coins by someone in the US Treasury! The person included a note saying they like my radio show and are frightened by what's been going on in secret within our government.

This Treasury Department person was outraged that our country was beginning to coin money as part of a merger that would do away with our country, via a merger the American public knew nothing about!

When I got the professional images of the AMERO coin, I was finally intrigued enough to make mention of it on my web site. My site has gotten over 20 Million visits in the last couple years and is becoming more popular because of the brutal honesty and timely delivery of news that folks don't find elsewhere. This story about AMERO coins would fit my niche of breaking news, so I ran a snippet of a story.

As part of my report, I included the professional images sent to me by the Treasury person. They appear below:

http://www.halturnershow.com/20AmeroCoin.jpg

http://www.halturnershow.com/100AmeroCoin.jpg

I also mentioned that very pricey "Collector Proofs" of the coins were also being Minted in Silver and Gold, and I posted an image of one such Silver Proof, shown below:

http://www.halturnershow.com/PureSilver100AmeroCoin.jpg

The story went on to say that the US Government has intentionally overspent itself for the purpose of irreversibly Bankrupting the country. The idea is that they will drive the country into economic failure, then when millions of Americans are panicking at the prospect, offer them a solution of merging the three countries as "the only possible way" to avoid losing everything.

They will force Canada into the merger by telling them the US currency they hold and rely upon will be worthless and the only way Canada can even hope to salvage any of the funds is to join the NAU.

They will sell it to the Mexican people by saying it will instantly improve their buying-power and quality of life.

In reality, the value of the US and Canadian dollars will be significantly reduced to counter the worthless peso being absorbed. People in the US and Canada will suffer great financial loss while Mexicans will see significant gain. In the meantime, the financial elite and the politicians they own will make out like bandits!

That's the reason politicians are doing this: to get rich for themselves and their financial elite pals.

The folks in power within government and their buddies in Banking and finance know that in any currency switch, some lose big while others gain big. Really big! In fact, folks with foreknowledge of such a switch can make hundreds-of-millions, perhaps even billions for themselves overnight. Those without foreknowledge (common folks like you and me) usually end up being wiped out.


INSTANT, FULL BLAST "SPIN"



I published the images and the small story and went to bed. I had no idea what my little story would do.

Within a matter of hours, there was a full blown effort to discredit my story and the images as fake.

I was accused of lying. I was accused of having "photoshopped" the images by creating them in Adobe Photoshop.

Within a couple days, a basic web site for AMERO "FANTASY COINS" was erected on the internet and word of that site was spread quickly. The site contained the same images as I had run on my front page, so clearly whatever "SPIN" was happening was being driven by others who also had the professional images.

There was intense effort to claim the whole idea of these coins was a fantasy and there was absolutely no truth to them whatsoever. That effort to "spin" the story out of existence worked. Folks quickly lost interest. I did not.


Get me the real thing by any means necessary



I reached out to the person in the Treasury who first alerted me to the coins. That person told me "The **** hit the fan around here when your story ran." The person went on to say "They told everyone in all the Mints that anyone revealing information about the AMERO would be fired and perhaps even criminally prosecuted for endangering national security."

Ahhhh yes, the grand old catch-all of national security. When they wheel that one out, you just KNOW they're pissed off about something!

I told the Treasury person that the only way anyone might believe this is happening, is for me to actually get one of the coins. The Treasury guy balked. He said "there's no way to get one without stealing it."

I though about that for a moment. . . . . then decided that if my government is concealing the actual Minting of coins for a new sovereign entity which may end up with power over me, but which I haven't been told about, then that government deserves whatever gets done to it.

I told the Treasury person to get me an Amero by any means necessary - even if that meant stealing it. The Treasury person said it would require them to think about for awhile and if it could be done, I would get one in the mail.

I waited. And waited. Frankly, after about three weeks, I lost track of the story -- until today. A real AMERO coin arrived at my home in the mail this afternoon!


The real thing arrives!

Today, I received a single 20 AMERO coin in the mail. A real coin. Real metal, really MINTED by the US Mint in Denver, CO. The proof that it is being Minted in Denver is that the coin is stamped with the Mint Identity letter "D" on the bottom right of the side with the eagle just like regular US coins already in circulation today!

Click each image to enlarge it, CLICK TWICE TO SUPER ENLARGE IT!!

http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2466.JPG

(http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2466.JPG) http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2467.JPG

(http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2467.JPG) http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2469.JPG

(http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2469.JPG) http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2470.JPG

(http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2470.JPG) http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2471.JPG

(http://www.halturnershow.com/IMG_2471.JPG) Please note the letter "D" stamped below and to the right of the Planet earth at the bottom right of the coin in this photo. That "D" stands for the United States Mint at Denver, CO.


VIDEO!


So that you can see this is a real, metal coin, I have made a small video of me holding the coin, turning it, then dropping it on a wooden table top so you can hear what it sounds like when it hits.
Download the Windows Media Video here (http://www.halturnershow.com/The-Amero.wmv)


I WAS RIGHT!


I stand vindicated. All those who claimed I fabricated the images now owe me an apology. All those who claimed these were "fantasy" coins can now explain why anyone in their right mind would spend Millions of dollars to create the rare and expensive professional dies and plates necessary for minting coins that will not be issued?

The simple truth is, the coins are real. The plan to merge the US, Canada and Mexico is real. Our government is lying about it and the fact they are minting money at the Denver Mint bearing the name of Union of North America is proof.

So America, Canada and Mexico, our governments are betraying us and planning to merge our countries without our knowledge or consent, or by financial disaster they bring-on intentionally. What are we going to do about it?

For my part, the Second Amendment comes to mind.

-- Hal Turner

[Felix U. Gómez]

That's a bunch of crap. Any coin that would represent a North American Union would have to have elements symbolic of all three countries. What the hell would Jamestown have to do with us? We already had universities and cathedrals when those poor souls were eating their shoes.

[Ordie]

Somebody must've had alot of time to work on this conspiracy theory.

[perdurabo]

now there should be south american union, african union and asian union and if those will unite we can make world union ;)

[MichaelF]

Anyone else notice that that is a big damn coin? Not really something you'd carry in your pocket.

20 Ameros? That's an awfully large denomination to mint coins in. Even given that the "Amero" would be worth slightly less than the Dollar.

Pesos (10-1 on the Dollar) come in "20", "50" and "100" denomination coins, but they are fairly uncommon in everyday use. Even the Ruble (at 25-1 on the Dollar) only goes up to "10" in coins.

Say the Amero converts from Dollars at 50% (2 Ameros to the Dollar). Do we need a coin worth 10 Dollars? 90% of the World uses notes for that value of transaction.

Show me a "1", "2" or "5" coin.

Better yet, show me an Amero banknote (most common method of transaction). That we haven't seen any notes is airly good proof of a hoax(aside from the ridiculous idea of trying to merge 3 very different economies and cultures with no preparation).

[MichaelF]

That's a bunch of crap. Any coin that would represent a North American Union would have to have elements symbolic of all three countries. What the hell would Jamestown have to do with us? We already had universities and cathedrals when those poor souls were eating their shoes.

"Theoretically", coins minted in the US would use American symbology, while coins minted in Canada and Mexico would do likewise. All would be "Ameros" and accepted equally (which is how the Euro works). Banknotes would either have a single format(Euro), or be regional but accepted as legal tender anywhere (as in the UK with notes from the Bank of England).

All academic, of course, as this is (very) likely a hoax.

[Freibier]

I expect the dollar nosedive to 0.25€ before any serious attempts to create and distribute a new currency are made
haha

[Thor]

now there should be south american union, african union and asian union and if those will unite we can make world union ;)
You're not far from the truth actually. Many very influential people work toward a form of world government and the formations of these unions are seen as part of it.

[perdurabo]

the biggest fun with euro had my friend he was traveling acros europe so he had meany Euro coins from difrent countries, he haden't had any problems with paying until he came to border of Austria with Czechia. He bought a meal and wanted to pay for it with those coins and waitres made big eyes on those coins and said "sorry mister but thats not our austrian euro i can't accept them" rotfl

[tsuri]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/amero.asp

These coins are a famous hoax Fail Turner dug up.


"sorry mister but thats not our austrian euro i can't accept them" rotfl
L O L

It would be useless to mint coins before the economic framework for such a currency is in place. The Euro was preceded by the ECU which at first was a pretty weak basket. Later all currencies in the ECU System were fixed to each other and basically were just Euros with different coins and paper. The common look was merely a style issue.

tl;dr:
All three currencies need to have a fixed course before someone thinks about minting coins.

[INAT]

Wow scary stuff "world government" but it has always been the will of the few to rule the many.Globalization is a scary prospect.

[MichaelF]

We'll all be using Canadian money soon, anyway...

[Roy Batty]

We'll all be using Canadian money soon, anyway...

Say it with me: "I love the Loonie"...lol

[clean]

Say it with me: "I love the Loonie"...lol

You canucks have become intolerable since the loonies unfortunate rise to palarity with the greenback.
Wait until you get some pesos in your monetary system. You won't be laughing then.

[MichaelF]

Any day now...