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Kilo
07-20-2007, 04:13 AM
Thursday, Jul. 19, 2007

How to Leave Iraq

By MICHAEL DUFFY


http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0707/iraq_cover_0719.jpg




There are two big schools of thought about what the U.S. should do next in Iraq, and both schools are almost certainly wrong.
The first, represented by many congressional Democrats, argues that it is past the time for America to leave. The best thing that could happen now is for the U.S. to pull out as quickly as possible, force the Iraqis to take control of their destinies and compel the oil-rich gulf states in the neighborhood to get off the sidelines. In this view, leaving Iraq would deny al-Qaeda its best recruiting tool, a large U.S. military presence in the Middle East. Along the way, the U.S. could save the $10 billion a month that it is spending on the war and rescue the U.S. Army and Marine Corps before they both collapse.
To the other school, it's just as clear that the only possible course is to continue to fight for as long as it takes. Espoused by Bush Administration officials, the contention of this group is that by withdrawing from Iraq, we'd unleash a bloodbath, hand al-Qaeda and Iran huge victories, destabilize the Persian Gulf and empower terrorists everywhere to attack our allies and our homeland. In the face of those dangers, say the White House and its backers, America has no choice but to remain in Iraq until a democracy emerges from the chaos of the Middle East — a project they openly acknowledge is the work of a generation.
Four years after the U.S. invaded Iraq, neither approach makes much sense. Political support for the war has cratered; Americans want the troops brought home. But they also know that it isn't likely to happen soon and that no matter when America leaves, Iraq could well become a more chaotic, violent place. They have learned that in the Middle East the U.S. has very little, if any, control over what might occur. And no matter what your views of the war or its genesis, things are likely to turn out different from what you expect.
As the White House and Congress bicker over timetables and benchmarks, intelligence estimates and report cards, the real question is the one neither camp is facing very well: How do we leave in a way that maximizes the good that we can still achieve and minimizes the damage that will inevitably occur? The best strategic minds in both parties have argued for months that the answer is essentially to muddle our way out, cut our losses carefully and try to salvage what we can from a mission gone bad. Even under the rosiest scenarios, the U.S. will suffer a humbling blow to its prestige as it leaves Iraq and the Sunni-Shi'ite civil war intensifies. But with the debacle would come some dividends. Done judiciously, a pullback from the war would start restoring America's ability to advance its interests and deter aggression beyond Iraq.
What's needed is not the sloganeering of certain politicians but a clear-eyed, multifaceted policy. That would involve making plain to the Iraqi government our intention to pull back, followed by an orderly withdrawal of about half the 160,000 troops currently in Iraq by the middle of 2008. A force of 50,000 to 100,000 troops would dig in for a longer stay to protect America's most vital interests: denying al- Qaeda a safe haven and preventing an almost inevitable civil war from spilling into neighboring countries. At the same time, the reduction in the U.S.'s military footprint in the region should be accompanied by a sustained surge in American diplomacy.
Slowly backing out of Iraq is hardly inspiring and won't be likely to satisfy either the President or his opponents. It may look just as messy as what the U.S. is doing now. But a responsible retreat would limit U.S. casualties and move America out of a debilitating chapter that has now played out politically at home, if not militarily on the ground. In a world of bad options, a phased withdrawal is the least bad one out there.


WHAT A PULLOUT WOULD LOOK LIKE


On July 17, in yet another example of how unhelpful the political conversation has become, workers laid out cots and pillows in a marble cloakroom on Capitol Hill as the Senate prepared for an all-night debate on another in a line of doomed-to-fail resolutions. Sponsored by Democratic Senators Carl Levin and Jack Reed, the measure called on the Administration to begin withdrawing the bulk of U.S. troops within 120 days and leave an unstated number behind to go after terrorists and protect the U.S. embassy in Baghdad. Many Republicans might support such a plan in private if they did not feel that the Democrats were keeping them up all night to score points at the President's expense. But even if Congress approved Levin-Reed, military logistics experts say it would take far longer than 120 days to redeploy even half of U.S. forces.
The reality is that it's difficult to get out fast. It took the Soviets nine months to pull 120,000 troops out of Afghanistan. They were simply going next door, and they still lost more than 500 men on the way out. Pulling out 10 combat brigades — roughly 30,000 troops, along with their gear and support personnel — would take at least 10 months, Pentagon officials say. And that's only part of the picture. There are civilians who would probably want to head for the exit when GIs started packing. They include some 50,000 U.S. contractors and tens of thousands of Iraqis who might need protection if we left the country.
Slowing things down further is the sheer volume of stuff that we would have to take with us — or destroy if we couldn't. Military officials recently told Congress that 45,000 ground-combat vehicles — a good portion of the entire U.S. inventory of tanks, helicopters, armored personnel carriers, trucks and humvees — are now in Iraq. They are spread across 15 bases, 38 supply depots, 18 fuel-supply centers and 10 ammo dumps. These items have to be taken back home or destroyed, lest they fall into the hands of one faction or another. Pentagon officials will try to bring back as much of the downtime gear as possible — dining halls, office buildings, vending machines, furniture, mobile latrines, computers, paper clips and acres of living quarters. William (Gus) Pagonis, the Army logistics chief who directed the flood of supplies to Saudi Arabia for the 1991 Gulf War and their orderly withdrawal from the region, cites one more often overlooked hurdle: U.S. agricultural inspectors insist that, before it re-enters the U.S., Army equipment be free of any microscopic disease that, as Pagonis puts it, "can wipe out flocks of chickens and stuff like that."
Once the U.S. decides to pull its forces back, the security risks to troops leaving the battlefield would increase, and the faster the U.S. withdraws, the greater the dangers. Departing troops lose their focus and become easy targets, says Pagonis. Local militias usually try to prove their mettle by firing at departing columns. "It would be ugly," says retired Army General Barry McCaffrey, who supports a partial withdrawal. "You'd burn or blow up a lot of your equipment or hand it over to the Iraqis. You'd be subject to attack on your way down to the coast because on the way, people would say, 'We can either throw rose petals or shoot at 'em,' and they'd shoot at us." A gradual exit rather than an immediate one isn't merely the wiser course; it's the only course.


THE FATE OF THE IRAQIS

A reduction in the U.S. combat presence would probably produce one clear benefit: a lower U.S. casualty rate. But a chilling truth is that as the U.S. death toll declined, the Iraqi one would almost surely soar. Just how many Iraqis would die if the U.S. withdrew is anyone's guess, but almost everyone who has studied it believes the current rate of more than a thousand a month would spike dramatically. It might not resemble Rwanda, where more than half a million people were slaughtered in six months in 1994. But Iraq could bleed like the former Yugoslavia did from 1992 to 1995, when 250,000 perished.
There is no debate about why: in the wake of an American pullout, Baghdad would be quickly dominated by Shi'ite militias largely unbloodied by the American campaign. Already, well-armed security forces that pose as independent are riddled with militiamen who take direction from Shi'ite leaders. Death-squad killings of Sunnis would rise. Against such emboldened forces, Sunni insurgents and elements of Saddam Hussein's former regime would retaliate with their weapon of choice: car-bomb attacks against Shi'ite markets, shrines, police stations and recruiting depots.
One result of the military's "surge" strategy is that the U.S. has handed over to Sunni tribal sheiks much greater responsibility for their security — and even the weapons to back it up — in exchange for severing their links to al-Qaeda. That's a manageable risk while U.S. forces are nearby; if they depart, it becomes tinder in a dry forest. The danger would be not just sectarian slaughter but outright anarchy as well. "Our immediate concern," says a senior Arab diplomat, "is that sending a signal of complete withdrawal could encourage some elements in every faction in every political group that they can now impose their own agenda. It would be not only Shi'ite versus Sunni ... but [war] inside each community itself. The worst case is a Somalia-ization of Iraq."
Some experts believe Iraqis would, after a brief explosion of violence, regain control of their country. Indeed, there are those who think that is the best reason for the U.S. to set a date for a withdrawal now, to force the Iraqis to step up and take control before any kind of U.S. pullout begins to create a vacuum. But there are few indications that the Iraqi center, such as it is, can hold or that Iraq's neighbors will be much of a stabilizing influence.
The worst-case scenario is an Iraq war that becomes a regional conflict. Sunni sympathizers in the region — most notably in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria — would funnel arms and cash to their kinsmen in Iraq to counter the Shi'ites, just as the government of Iran is quietly helping the Shi'ites themselves. "One of the things we've seen elsewhere, whether it is Ireland or Palestine," says Jon Alterman, Middle East director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, "is that when you have people outside the country that are doing the paying, you will continue to have proxies inside the country doing the killing."
It's easy to see how a reckless U.S. departure could spark a chain reaction that leads to further destabilization or even war among Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, three of the world's 15 top oil-exporting countries. Shi'ites who object to Saudi backing of the Sunnis might retaliate inside the kingdom — or Sunnis might take the fight into Iran. "We will have sectarian violence on a level that would likely trigger regional war," says Michθle Flournoy, president of the Center for a New American Security, a nonpartisan think tank. "At that point, you are looking at a path you don't want to go down."
Given that the current U.S. force has been unable to curb sectarian killings, it's unreasonable to expect that a reduced U.S. troop presence would stop Sunnis and Shi'ites from killing one another. But even with a significantly smaller footprint, the U.S. would retain sufficient firepower on the ground and in the skies to guard against others trying to intervene. After a majority of U.S. troops depart, a military presence of some size will still be needed — not so much to referee a civil war, as U.S. forces are doing now, but to try to keep it from expanding. McCaffrey and others argue for cutting U.S. forces by no more than half for now. "If you end up with 10 combat brigades in Iraq at the end of this President's term" — down from 20 today — "you'd still have enough combat power" to deter outside actors from further stoking the fire.


THE AL-QAEDA FACTOR

Advocates of a phased withdrawal from Iraq still must overcome the Bush Administration's most vociferous argument against it: that Americans must stay in Iraq to prevent al-Qaeda from establishing a safe haven there. As support from key Republicans has withered, the Pentagon has cranked up the al-Qaeda rhetoric. On July 17, the Administration released the latest National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), which said "Al-Qaeda will probably seek to leverage the contacts and capabilities of al-Qaeda in Iraq" to plot attacks against the U.S. homeland. Bush has turned up the volume, mentioning al-Qaeda 27 times in a speech last month. "Leaving Iraq now," Bush said recently, would mean we'd "allow the terrorists to establish a safe haven in Iraq to replace the one they lost in Afghanistan ... People aren't just going to be content with driving America out of Iraq. Al-Qaeda wants to hurt us here."
Anthony Cordesman, a security analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, says the U.S. military estimates that al-Qaeda in Iraq — a group thought to number several thousand — accounts for only about 15% of the attacks in Iraq. (Other Sunni groups account for 70%, with Shi'ite militias responsible for the remaining 15%.) But, Cordesman says, those attacks are the most deadly and "probably do the most damage in pushing Iraq toward civil war." At the moment, al-Qaeda in Iraq is valuable to Osama bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, even though the links between the Qaeda leaders and the jihadi shock troops in Iraq are tenuous. The violence perpetrated by al-Qaeda in Iraq helps the organization raise money and draw new recruits. The declassified NIE summary says al-Qaeda in Iraq helps al-Qaeda "energize the broader Sunni extremist community, raise resources and recruit and indoctrinate operatives, including for homeland attacks."
But it's also true that al-Qaeda in Iraq is on the run. On Wednesday, the U.S. announced the capture of the highest-ranking commander of the group in Iraq. When the U.S. leaves, many Iraqis say, they can deal with the terrorists and their patrons more harshly. The Anbar Salvation Council has been aggressively targeting al-Qaeda in that province, denying it safe haven in places it once controlled with an iron fist. The Administration has boasted in recent weeks that the Sunnis in Anbar are attacking elements of al-Qaeda. So why would that end if the U.S. withdrew? "If we withdraw from Iraq, a lot of the tensions we see today are going to be directed against al-Qaeda as well as against every other faction," says Cordesman. "So it's not going to be some sort of easy sanctuary for al-Qaeda."
But neither will the broader jihadist threat in Iraq or elsewhere vanish when we leave. Most plans for a reduced U.S. mission in Iraq — including the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, headed by James Baker III and Lee Hamilton — call for retaining a small counterterrorism force there. "No one is going to complain about going after an al-Qaeda target," says Anthony Zinni, former head of U.S. Central Command, who advocates a gradual disengagement from the sectarian conflict. Even so, the U.S. needs to be realistic about what 75,000 U.S. troops can achieve. "I want to blow up al-Qaeda wherever we can, but I don't think we're going to have any particular capacity to do that if we cut our troop strength in half and pull back into the desert," says Stephen Biddle of the Council on Foreign Relations. Cordesman, who does not favor an immediate withdrawal, notes that all the worry about al-Qaeda in Iraq ignores the much larger threat that bin Laden's ideas already pose to U.S. interests. "Al-Qaeda does not have a center," he says. "Al-Qaeda operates in Pakistan; al-Qaeda operates in Afghanistan. It has distributed networks and affiliates in Algeria. It has ties, awkward as they are, to Hamas. We are talking about a network, which is international in character, which will be a major threat whether we win or lose in Iraq."


REDEFINING SUCCESS

As exhausting as the enterprise in Iraq has been for Americans, it remains merely the most urgent of a wide range of challenges to global stability. While it can only be glimpsed, an end to the debacle in Iraq does not mean an end to America's responsibilities in the world. With the U.S. drawing down, Iraq would diminish as a focal point of anti-Americanism. With most U.S. troops exiting the region, Washington would have more leverage with Iran, which has continued its march toward nuclear weapons while the U.S. has been bogged down in Iraq. And most important of all, the U.S. would regain the military, economic and intellectual bandwidth it once employed to advance its interests elsewhere and start rebuilding its reputation overseas.
But that will require the kind of diplomatic effort that this Administration has been reluctant to pursue. The most obvious place to start is Iraq, where U.S. diplomacy will still be needed to bring about a sustainable accord between Sunnis and Shi'ites, should they ever tire of fighting. A State Department official says what is needed is a greater willingness to engage hard-line forces on both sides of the sectarian divide as well as the Iranians and Syrians, all of whom will have a say in Iraq's future. Resistance to this idea comes from the White House, a U.S. diplomat says. "There is a reality on the ground in Iraq that we never really wanted to confront too much, but there are real politics in Iraq," says the official. "If we can tap into that and start working and engaging with Iraqis in a different way, we might actually become part of what emerges as a solution."
Beyond Iraq, a redoubled effort to build a viable Palestinian government that can eventually reach a settlement with Israel would undercut another source of anti-Americanism and Islamic radicalism. The U.S. must also attend to growing instability in Pakistan, a key but uncertain ally in its war on terrorism, and may need to send some of the troops coming out of Iraq to Afghanistan to shore up the shaky government in Kabul.
Can it be done? Michael Mandelbaum, who teaches U.S. foreign policy at Johns Hopkins University, warns that potential gains in any salvage operation are limited, and this one is no different. "The goal here is damage limitation," he says, "not the kind of success envisioned when the operation began." Withdrawal from Iraq will be slow, messy and painful. But however difficult the passage, it is still possible to get to a place that is more secure than where we are now.


With reporting by Mark Kukis and Charles Crain/Baghdad, Scott Macleod/Cairo and Brian Bennett, Massimo Calabresi, Jay Newton-Small and Mark Thompson/Washington

Source: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1644877,00.html

Freedom-Fries
07-20-2007, 04:58 AM
no mention of the kurdiztan issue

sidman69
07-20-2007, 10:29 AM
i've always wondered why people take the Bush administrations word for anything related to Iraq, they have been consistently wrong about everything. Just as we are seeing now (with some insurgent groups), wouldn't the Iraqi's in the case of a US withdrawal reject AQ ideologies and aren't a majority of the insurgents fighting the US occuption, and don't want to establish an Islamic State?

11 Bravo
07-20-2007, 11:10 AM
aren't a majority of the insurgents fighting the US occuption, and don't want to establish an Islamic State?


Have you been watching the news at all ?. So many Iraqis are being murdered daily by these human pond scum insurgents....they are obviously killing more civilians for their aims of some fruity islamic utopia than fighting Coalition forces. I suspect you have an agenda anyhow.

Bert
07-20-2007, 11:14 AM
no mention of the kurdiztan issue

Kurdistan is doing quite well without American military, sorry, police in the streets and will continue to do so especially when the rest are left fighting each other instead of each other and the US. The only issue would be Turkey -- right now the only reason Turkey isn't turning Kurdistan into a parking lot is because the US would get relatively angry.

Who cares if they establish an 'Islamic State'? Vietnam is the 'Socialist Republic' the US feared and tried to combat during the Vietnam War, but now, Vietnam is a trading partner, they have abandoned Socialism in all but name, and noone cares what their title is. Just let the Iraqis take care of themselves, and see how it pans out. It's not like the US military presence is actually making things better down there, so it wouldn't get worse if they left, it'd just force Iraqis to take care of things themselves.

mi35d
07-20-2007, 11:47 AM
Because the Socialist in name only country of Vietnam isn't training people to blow up buildings, buses, bridges, etc.

HeavyMetal
07-20-2007, 11:54 AM
i like the outline of the Hind helicopter in their clever little header image...............................

Railcat
07-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Have you been watching the news at all ?. So many Iraqis are being murdered daily by these human pond scum insurgents....they are obviously killing more civilians for their aims of some fruity islamic utopia than fighting Coalition forces. I suspect you have an agenda anyhow.

Whether you like it or not - the majority of Iraqi's oppose the US occupation.

While i'm not condoning the scum that murder innocent civilians it's also retarded to dismiss the fact that murdering civilians puts pressure on the US government in domestic circles.

And if you honestly believe sectarian violence is about establishing an islamic utopia you are deluded.

sidman69
07-20-2007, 05:01 PM
first off i don't have an agenda so screw off, all i am saying is that a majority of the insurgents are fighting the US presence, while civilians are being killed by the insurgents, lots of the 100 or so daily attacks aren't reported by the news, only the few spectacular attacks mostly by foreign fighters working for AQ make the news.

Shadowstorm
07-20-2007, 05:03 PM
Were not leaving Iraq anytime soon.

Hilbert
07-20-2007, 05:06 PM
Whether you like it or not - the majority of Iraqi's oppose the US occupation.

While i'm not condoning the scum that murder innocent civilians it's also retarded to dismiss the fact that murdering civilians puts pressure on the US government in domestic circles.

And if you honestly believe sectarian violence is about establishing an islamic utopia you are deluded.

Then what is their goal? Is it "If we kill enough of our people maybe the American's will feel sorry and leave?" or is "Let's just spill our neighbor's blood?" Please, explain to me how their fighting the U.S. "Occupation" by murdering hundreds of thier own people that just want to live peacefully. Or, is it because that's what happened with weak-kneed politicians in Somolia, Vietnam, Lebonan, etc? While I'm no expert on the subject, I think names such as "The Islamic State of Iraq" and a few others among the extremist groups do a nice job in summarizing goals.

Regards,
Hilbert

LMAV
07-20-2007, 06:32 PM
i've always wondered why people take the Bush administrations word for anything related to Iraq, they have been consistently wrong about everything. Just as we are seeing now (with some insurgent groups), wouldn't the Iraqi's in the case of a US withdrawal reject AQ ideologies and aren't a majority of the insurgents fighting the US occuption, and don't want to establish an Islamic State?

What exactly makes you think that? In every case where we (or moderates) have pulled back from the fight, al'qaeda has moved in.

Afghanistan
-Soviets invade
-Soviets are forced to leave for various reasons
-al'qaeda is born due to the great victory
-Taliban is established
-launches attacks on the US

Somalia
-US leaves
-Al'qaeda takes over and uses retreat as a great victory
-Subjugates population
-Launches attacks on the US
-Goes to war with Ethiopia


Lebanon
-Iran funds Hezzbolla
-Hezbola attacks Israel, Israel retaliates than leaves due to world media pressure.
-Hezbolla uses it as a great victory
-peace keepers enter and are attacked by al'qaeda forces
-Lebanese soldiers are forced to shell Palestinian refugee camps, to this day, fighting al'qaeda groups.

Not to mention, alqaeda expressed goal is to drive us out so they can move in. The only reason Iraqis are helping us with AQ now is because we are there helping. If we leave, they would most likely join back up with AQ.



Whether you like it or not - the majority of Iraqi's oppose the US occupation.What do you mean by that exactly? Sure, they are against the US being there, but they also don't want us to leave till they have some security. According to the latest BBC poll:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6451841.stm
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3041/iraqpollwv3.jpg

Railcat
07-20-2007, 06:38 PM
Then what is their goal? Is it "If we kill enough of our people maybe the American's will feel sorry and leave?" or is "Let's just spill our neighbor's blood?" Please, explain to me how their fighting the U.S. "Occupation" by murdering hundreds of thier own people that just want to live peacefully. Or, is it because that's what happened with weak-kneed politicians in Somolia, Vietnam, Lebonan, etc? While I'm no expert on the subject, I think names such as "The Islamic State of Iraq" and a few others among the extremist groups do a nice job in summarizing goals.

Regards,
Hilbert

It's called a power struggle - which is based on the sectarian divide.
Murdering eachother not only allows them to gain on their rivals; but it totally undermine the US efforts to stabilise/control the country. That reflects badly at home and abroad, therefore, creating negative sentiment against hte war and engerdering a pull out.

So i'm guessing when the republican and loyalist groups in northern Ireland went around kneecapping each other it was to establish a totalitarian christian state?

It's not that hard to understand. Instability and violence simply undermines the US occupation of Iraq and so: serves their goals.

Hilbert
07-20-2007, 08:44 PM
It's called a power struggle - which is based on the sectarian divide.
Murdering eachother not only allows them to gain on their rivals; but it totally undermine the US efforts to stabilise/control the country. That reflects badly at home and abroad, therefore, creating negative sentiment against hte war and engerdering a pull out.

So i'm guessing when the republican and loyalist groups in northern Ireland went around kneecapping each other it was to establish a totalitarian christian state?

It's not that hard to understand. Instability and violence simply undermines the US occupation of Iraq and so: serves their goals.

A power struggle? Well thanks for the update there, that's obvious. You fail to answer my question: what exactly IS their goal? Obviously, it's to impose their will through violence, to create disorder and hamper Coalition effectiveness, thats fairly obvious. But, just what is their will, what is their ultimate goal - the larger picture? I certainely don't think groups call themselves "The Islamic State of Iraq" because their peace loving people and will happily cease hostilities once the American's love. I certainely don't think thats the reason for their hatred, why they go around torturing and murdering innocent men, women, and children. Do you? I think it's because of a twisted, extremist ideology per say. We know, at least one group, seeks to implement an extremist regime in place, whose to say the others, at least some of them, don't as well? I would greatly appreciate the opinions of some of the Military Veterans on these forums who've served in Iraq to shed light on their feelings of the matter.

On a personal note: I fail to understand how people see the urge to pull out just because these people keep killing each other, if you ask me, that's all the more reason we need to stay put and hold firm. Much like these anti-war jerks who -reluctantly- give the military less than half of the amount of reinforcement troops that they ask for, then after two weeks, can instantly label the plan a failure. I also fail to see how people can sit there and openly compare Iraq to Vietnam just because they are both the for most part that of Unconventional Warfare. I really enjoy all of these people who COMPARE U.S. casualties in Vietnam to those in Iraq, they've even developed a mathmatical formula for translating what one death in Iraq would mean in the Vietnam war! Simply amazing, that's taking the old fashioned political standpoint of seeing dead troops as figures on paper to a new level.

Regards,
Hilbert

Railcat
07-21-2007, 07:11 AM
A power struggle? Well thanks for the update there, that's obvious. You fail to answer my question: what exactly IS their goal? Obviously, it's to impose their will through violence, to create disorder and hamper Coalition effectiveness, thats fairly obvious. But, just what is their will, what is their ultimate goal - the larger picture?

To gain power. To be the biggest, baddest group in all of Iraq.



I certainely don't think groups call themselves "The Islamic State of Iraq" because their peace loving people and will happily cease hostilities once the American's love.

Iraq is a muslim country. What do you expect?

Your arrogance is a little telling. Are the Irish not peace loving people? What about the Africans in the LRA, Congo, Rwanda, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania etc.

If America leaves they will fight until one group establishes control.



I certainely don't think thats the reason for their hatred, why they go around torturing and murdering innocent men, women, and children. Do you? I think it's because of a twisted, extremist ideology per say. We know, at least one group, seeks to implement an extremist regime in place, whose to say the others, at least some of them, don't as well? I would greatly appreciate the opinions of some of the Military Veterans on these forums who've served in Iraq to shed light on their feelings of the matter.

That's sectarian violence for you.


On a personal note: I fail to understand how people see the urge to pull out just because these people keep killing each other, if you ask me, that's all the more reason we need to stay put and hold firm.

You are under the impression that the Iraq war was popular in the first place.

The US is seen as part of the problem. Many people just want to let Iraqi's sort it out themselves.


Much like these anti-war jerks who -reluctantly- give the military less than half of the amount of reinforcement troops that they ask for, then after two weeks, can instantly label the plan a failure.

Obviously, you are biased.

Anti war jerks? That's a bit rich. I'd say if anything those jerks have been shown to be right.

LMAV
07-21-2007, 07:57 AM
The US is seen as part of the problem. Many people just want to let Iraqi's sort it out themselves.





Yeah and those same people are the first ones to talk about helping Darfur.

Railcat
07-21-2007, 08:09 AM
Yeah and those same people are the first ones to talk about helping Darfur.

that's a different kettle of fish.

There is somewhat of a concensus on Darfur. And practically no one has really suggested invading it : besides Bush of course - but that's a given.

Masai
07-21-2007, 10:14 AM
i like the outline of the Hind helicopter in their clever little header image...............................

so thats what bothers me about the article.... :)

JTAR7242
07-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Kurdistan is doing quite well without American military, sorry, police in the streets and will continue to do so especially when the rest are left fighting each other instead of each other and the US. The only issue would be Turkey -- right now the only reason Turkey isn't turning Kurdistan into a parking lot is because the US would get relatively angry.The Kurdish north would be one of the more likely places to leave troops. The US is better accepted there, and it would discourage Turkey from acting militarily.

It's not like the US military presence is actually making things better down there, so it wouldn't get worse if they left, Heh.

LMAV
07-21-2007, 12:21 PM
that's a different kettle of fish.

There is somewhat of a concensus on Darfur. And practically no one has really suggested invading it : besides Bush of course - but that's a given.

Osama has promised AQ will follow us to Darfur, so you can expect similar results. It still makes no sense that you are completely willing to let a genocide occur in Iraq, yet you're willing to move on to another country with a similar situation.

budgie
07-21-2007, 12:38 PM
What exactly makes you think that? In every case where we (or moderates) have pulled back from the fight, al'qaeda has moved in.

Not to mention, alqaeda expressed goal is to drive us out so they can move in. The only reason Iraqis are helping us with AQ now is because we are there helping. If we leave, they would most likely join back up with AQ.



Dude AQ are already in Iraq. They didn't move in after the US left and they sure weren't there before. They moved in right under your noses. The Shiites aren't going to join them anytime soon and the Kurds have their own business. What exactly are we preventing here? Get out and partition the dump.

Railcat
07-21-2007, 01:39 PM
Osama has promised AQ will follow us to Darfur, so you can expect similar results. It still makes no sense that you are completely willing to let a genocide occur in Iraq, yet you're willing to move on to another country with a similar situation.

AQ seems to follow the US to where ever it invades. Which came first :The chicken or the egg.

The US invasion in Iraq wasn't about genocide.

LMAV
07-21-2007, 02:09 PM
AQ seems to follow the US to where ever it invades. Which came first :The chicken or the egg.

The US invasion in Iraq wasn't about genocide.

First of all, AQ was in Somalia before we got there and we never invaded in the first place. Secondly, I never claimed the Iraq invasion was about genocide.

The point is, we are willing to leave Iraqis to a genocide, than move in to another country to stop one? Why don't we clean up our first mess first?

Railcat
07-21-2007, 03:19 PM
First of all, AQ was in Somalia before we got there and we never invaded in the first place. Secondly, I never claimed the Iraq invasion was about genocide.

The point is, we are willing to leave Iraqis to a genocide, than move in to another country to stop one? Why don't we clean up our first mess first?

Since when did i mention somalia?

I didn't say we should go into Darfur.

LMAV
07-21-2007, 03:28 PM
Since when did i mention somalia?

I didn't say we should go into Darfur.


There is somewhat of a concensus on Darfur.

Than you claim Bush suggested invading Darfur, which he didn't.

darkstorm08
07-21-2007, 03:40 PM
What exactly makes you think that? In every case where we (or moderates) have pulled back from the fight, al'qaeda has moved in.

Afghanistan
-Soviets invade
-Soviets are forced to leave for various reasons
-al'qaeda is born due to the great victory
-Taliban is established
-launches attacks on the US

Somalia
-US leaves
-Al'qaeda takes over and uses retreat as a great victory
-Subjugates population
-Launches attacks on the US
-Goes to war with Ethiopia


Lebanon
-Iran funds Hezzbolla
-Hezbola attacks Israel, Israel retaliates than leaves due to world media pressure.
-Hezbolla uses it as a great victory
-peace keepers enter and are attacked by al'qaeda forces
-Lebanese soldiers are forced to shell Palestinian refugee camps, to this day, fighting al'qaeda groups.

Not to mention, alqaeda expressed goal is to drive us out so they can move in. The only reason Iraqis are helping us with AQ now is because we are there helping. If we leave, they would most likely join back up with AQ.


What do you mean by that exactly? Sure, they are against the US being there, but they also don't want us to leave till they have some security. According to the latest BBC poll:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6451841.stm
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3041/iraqpollwv3.jpg


Agreed. Once you jump in the ME sand box there is no getting out quickly. That only spells disaster, which may happen near or after the next US general election. That of course depends upon who becomes the next POTUS. :roll:

Hilbert
07-21-2007, 07:55 PM
Iraq is a muslim country. What do you expect?

Your arrogance is a little telling. Are the Irish not peace loving people? What about the Africans in the LRA, Congo, Rwanda, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania etc.

Just because someone is muslim, doesn't mean they have to or do harbor an extremism ideology. And perhaps I could have worded it better, it's (The Islamic State of Iraq) actions certainely aren't that of peace loving individuals rather of extremism.

To answer your questions, it depends on the person or group, you can't sit there and label an entire country as being "peace loving," "power hungry," or "blood lusting." Doing so is like saying because one apple is rotten every apple in the farm is rotten. Of course, you have individuals who wish to leave peacefully and those that don't, IRA for instance. Or if you need a bigger, more recent example, take some different factions in Serbia and Rwanda, they certainely did a very nice job of slaughtering each other, I'm sure they too loved peace - once every single one of their rivals was so called cleansed, whether it be man, woman, or child.


If America leaves they will fight until one group establishes control.

Precisely, meaning absolutely nothing would've been accomplished at would undermine all of our efforts to date.


You are under the impression that the Iraq war was popular in the first place.

Strange back in the first days of the war I seem to remember polls showing most of the United States rallying behind the President and approving of the use of Military Force.


The US is seen as part of the problem. Many people just want to let Iraqi's sort it out themselves.

Well if that was the case, why didn't we just go in, remove Saddam, and leave gracefully without even bothering to try and set things right, without even lifting a finger to try and train the Iraqi Forces so they can fend for themselves, and just say "There you go boys, we've got rid of saddam, enjoy yourselves." and leave them to their righteous slaughter? :roll:



Obviously, you are baised.

Anti war jerks? That's a bit rich. I'd say if anything those jerks have been shown to be right.

Sorry, but I see little baise in accurate information, for the surge congress gave less than half of what was asked, and now after just several weeks are happily denouncing it as a failure without even waiting to see the results. Even if it does fail, I cannot help but wonder if it would turn out differently if congress actually gave the military what was asked for.

Let me get this straight, your saying that giving the military less than half of what their asked and said would be sufficient, then after a couple of weeks of not seeing much progress (gee, I wonder why, they didn't even supply anything approaching what was asked for), it's right to call the idea a total failure and proves they we're right?

If this is indeed what you are saying, I feel you are seriously out of touch with reality. It would take even more than that amount of time to get the units into position and operations underway, let alone to see results, and that's assuming they got the number of troops requested in the first place!

Regards,
Hilbert

P.S. I would like to see where Bush suggested invading Darfur. Regardless of whether he did so or not, don't you feel something should be done? The United Nations can sit there and talk about "Human Rights" and "Protecting People" but tell me this, it's been four years now, and where oh where is the United Nations? What has the United Nations done? Condemn the ordeal? Happily sit together behind closed doors, wasting concessions and claiming how wrong something is yet doing nothing to stop it? This reminds me of Rwanda.

Railcat
07-22-2007, 01:14 PM
Just because someone is muslim, doesn't mean they have to or do harbor an extremism ideology. And perhaps I could have worded it better, it's (The Islamic State of Iraq) actions certainely aren't that of peace loving individuals rather of extremism.

Not many people love peace in a war zone.

I'm not fan of militant/extremist islam either.


To answer your questions, it depends on the person or group, you can't sit there and label an entire country as being "peace loving," "power hungry," or "blood lusting." Doing so is like saying because one apple is rotten every apple in the farm is rotten. Of course, you have individuals who wish to leave peacefully and those that don't, IRA for instance. Or if you need a bigger, more recent example, take some different factions in Serbia and Rwanda, they certainely did a very nice job of slaughtering each other, I'm sure they too loved peace - once every single one of their rivals was so called cleansed, whether it be man, woman, or child.

Given the right conditions any society can be turned into a murderous hell hole.


Precisely, meaning absolutely nothing would've been accomplished at would undermine all of our efforts to date.

so?

Officially you went into Iraq looking for WMD's. There are none.


Strange back in the first days of the war I seem to remember polls showing most of the United States rallying behind the President and approving of the use of Military Force.

I wouldn't say that like it's a good thing.

It just goes to show that Americans are easily manipulated. Yout got lied to and told Iraq was a threat to your security and everyone fell into line.




Well if that was the case, why didn't we just go in, remove Saddam, and leave gracefully without even bothering to try and set things right, without even lifting a finger to try and train the Iraqi Forces so they can fend for themselves, and just say "There you go boys, we've got rid of saddam, enjoy yourselves." and leave them to their righteous slaughter? :roll:

You seem to think that the US went into Iraq just to help the Iraqi people and be done with it, without any alterior motives. I'm a cynical man and so are many other people, and i don't believe that to be the case.


Sorry, but I see little baise in accurate information, for the surge congress gave less than half of what was asked, and now after just several weeks are happily denouncing it as a failure without even waiting to see the results. Even if it does fail, I cannot help but wonder if it would turn out differently if congress actually gave the military what was asked for.

hindsight is 20/20


Let me get this straight, your saying that giving the military less than half of what their asked and said would be sufficient, then after a couple of weeks of not seeing much progress (gee, I wonder why, they didn't even supply anything approaching what was asked for), it's right to call the idea a total failure and proves they we're right?

I didn't say that.

I opposed the war, full stop. Ergo avoiding the whole mess in the first place. Blame the politicians who supported the war and failed to send in what you deem to be the right number of troops.




If this is indeed what you are saying, I feel you are seriously out of touch with reality. It would take even more than that amount of time to get the units into position and operations underway, let alone to see results, and that's assuming they got the number of troops requested in the first place!

See above ^^^




P.S. I would like to see where Bush suggested invading Darfur. Regardless of whether he did so or not, don't you feel something should be done? The United Nations can sit there and talk about "Human Rights" and "Protecting People" but tell me this, it's been four years now, and where oh where is the United Nations? What has the United Nations done? Condemn the ordeal? Happily sit together behind closed doors, wasting concessions and claiming how wrong something is yet doing nothing to stop it? This reminds me of Rwanda.

Personally, i don't give a ****.

I want us to stay out of that conflict. Whatever credibility we had, we lost when we went into Iraq and Afghanistan. How can we now build a case for going into Sudan when half the world distrusts our moral integrity.

ElHombre
07-22-2007, 01:42 PM
Much like these anti-war jerks who -reluctantly- give the military less than half of the amount of reinforcement troops that they ask for, then after two weeks, can instantly label the plan a failure.

Fact check: As Commander-In-Chief of US forces, the pro-war Bush administration sets the troop levels, not the war critics who have consistantly been proven right about the foolishness of invading Iraq. The biggest reason for the low troop levels (compared to the numbers they need to be able to accomplish anything) is that there aren't enough troops. Never have been..

Hilbert
07-22-2007, 09:54 PM
Officially you went into Iraq looking for WMD's. There are none.



I wouldn't say that like it's a good thing.

It just goes to show that Americans are easily manipulated. Yout got lied to and told Iraq was a threat to your security and everyone fell into line.

Strange, I also never remember saying it was a good thing, I never said that and if you interprated it as if I was leaning towards that category, rest easy, it was not my intention.

As far as I've seen and am concerned, you could say that tricking people is what politics is all about and lying only seems to come naturally, wouldn't you agree? I've never met a truly honest politician in my life, nor have I ever heard of one. There's an old joke and proverb: "How do you tell when a politician is lying? Simple, when his lips are moving." However comical it may or may not be, I find it quite accurate. This isn't an arguement nor is a justification, it is an opinon - plain and simple, just like yours.

While it may be true that there weren't WMD's or at least if there are, they haven't be discovered yet, I think we've far reached a point where that doesn't matter anymore.


You seem to think that the US went into Iraq just to help the Iraqi people and be done with it, without any alterior motives. I'm a cynical man and so are many other people, and i don't believe that to be the case.

I don't believe I ever said, we went in there to "help the Iraqi people and be done with it, without any alterior motives." nor do I believe I've said anything to suggest such an ignorant thought. While we originally moved in to A.) Remove Saddamn's Regime and B.) Deal with WMD's, there's no denying that doing so would (and did) require instituting a new government. Or I suppose you could just go in and oust Saddam, check for and deal with WMD's, then leave the country. However, then you just have a complete bloodbath far beyond anything we've seen to date.


I opposed the war, full stop. Ergo avoiding the whole mess in the first place. Blame the politicians who supported the war and failed to send in what you deem to be the right number of troops.

You, as I am, or anyone else, is entitled to their own views and opinions, I respect that even if I disagree with them. However, I think your view of opposing the war, has become grossly irrelevent now, nor do I feel supporting it matters much either, what does matter is finishing it and you can do that in a couple of ways: A.) As you seem to suggest, just leave and let the situation spiral out of control in ways we've never seen yet -or- B.) Continue to maintain whatever presence is necessary until the Iraqi's can deal with situation themselves and/or some sense of security is restored. Obviously the latter will mean many more sacrafices from both Iraqi and Coalition, but I believe it to both be the proper thing to do and make the most sense in the long run.

Blame the politician's who took us to war? That's all fine and dandy but I fail to see how you hold them accountable for not being able to get the necessary number of troops there, when your beloved politicians, who claim to be looking out for our men's best interest, refuse to give them what they need to end this! That's like adding two plus zero and getting five, it's flat out wrong in every sense imaginable. And also, I am not trying to say "we need this many men and such as such." No, unlike some politicians, I am not pretending to know better than the commanders whose boots are on the ground, I am using their own words and requests, not personal feelings.

____

Elhombre, the Bush administration has been trying to get more troops in there to rectify the situation for ages now, however, last time I checked congress is simply screaming "No! No! and No!" I'm not saying the war critics are to blame, they are simply expressing their opinions, and whether it's right or wrong makes no difference. After everything is said and done, then we should go back and cry or laugh (depending on the situation) about it and point fingers, not while it's still going on - that's completely counterproductive, don't you agree? I hold the congressman who seem to think they know better than the field commanders responsible.

____

Regards,
Hilbert

P.S.
Railcat, regarding the right conditions, how do you think those conditions come to play - because there ARE people who are power hungry and try to insight violence - this is true no matter what society it is. Therefore, I feel blaming it on the conditions for "corrupting" someone or saying that generalizations such as saying "Everything is this" and "Everything is that" are hardly in touch with reality, rather flat out wrong.

And by the way, when did I ever propose that the United States send troops to Darfur, Rail Cat? Please, tell me that, because I didn't, in fact I'm against it, the United States already has it's hands full, perhaps too full depending on who you ask. Maybe it's time for the United Nation's to actually put their money where their mouth is and actually do something, not the United States.

ElHombre
07-22-2007, 10:46 PM
Elhombre, the Bush administration has been trying to get more troops in there to rectify the situation for ages now, however, last time I checked congress is simply screaming "No! No! and No!"

Congress has had little to nothing to do with troop levels. The numero uno reason for the lack of troops is the simple fact that there aren't any. Even the 'surge' increase is being brought about by shuffling deployment schedules around, a technique which almost everyone relaizes won't work long enough to bring about an actual change (although I reckon that it will last until Jan, 2009). That particular state of affairs is the responsibility of those civilian and military leaders in the WH and Pentagon who wouldn't acknowledge the reality of the situation they were proposing.

Shadowstorm
07-22-2007, 11:17 PM
Just because someone is muslim, doesn't mean they have to or do harbor an extremism ideology. And perhaps I could have worded it better, it's (The Islamic State of Iraq) actions certainely aren't that of peace loving individuals rather of extremism.

To answer your questions, it depends on the person or group, you can't sit there and label an entire country as being "peace loving," "power hungry," or "blood lusting." Doing so is like saying because one apple is rotten every apple in the farm is rotten. Of course, you have individuals who wish to leave peacefully and those that don't, IRA for instance. Or if you need a bigger, more recent example, take some different factions in Serbia and Rwanda, they certainely did a very nice job of slaughtering each other, I'm sure they too loved peace - once every single one of their rivals was so called cleansed, whether it be man, woman, or child.



Precisely, meaning absolutely nothing would've been accomplished at would undermine all of our efforts to date.



Strange back in the first days of the war I seem to remember polls showing most of the United States rallying behind the President and approving of the use of Military Force.



Well if that was the case, why didn't we just go in, remove Saddam, and leave gracefully without even bothering to try and set things right, without even lifting a finger to try and train the Iraqi Forces so they can fend for themselves, and just say "There you go boys, we've got rid of saddam, enjoy yourselves." and leave them to their righteous slaughter? :roll:




Sorry, but I see little baise in accurate information, for the surge congress gave less than half of what was asked, and now after just several weeks are happily denouncing it as a failure without even waiting to see the results. Even if it does fail, I cannot help but wonder if it would turn out differently if congress actually gave the military what was asked for.

Let me get this straight, your saying that giving the military less than half of what their asked and said would be sufficient, then after a couple of weeks of not seeing much progress (gee, I wonder why, they didn't even supply anything approaching what was asked for), it's right to call the idea a total failure and proves they we're right?

If this is indeed what you are saying, I feel you are seriously out of touch with reality. It would take even more than that amount of time to get the units into position and operations underway, let alone to see results, and that's assuming they got the number of troops requested in the first place!

Regards,
Hilbert

P.S. I would like to see where Bush suggested invading Darfur. Regardless of whether he did so or not, don't you feel something should be done? The United Nations can sit there and talk about "Human Rights" and "Protecting People" but tell me this, it's been four years now, and where oh where is the United Nations? What has the United Nations done? Condemn the ordeal? Happily sit together behind closed doors, wasting concessions and claiming how wrong something is yet doing nothing to stop it? This reminds me of Rwanda.
You ain't lying their. United Nations is just a big joke and half the members in the UN has a poor human rights record and they want to say stuff about the human rights. What a bunch hypocrits.