UN Rejects Taiwan's Application for Membership

[ZhukovG]

source here (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/taiwan/2007/taiwan-070724-voa01.htm)


By Andrew Ryan
Taipei
24 July 2007

The United Nations has rejected Taiwan's latest bid for membership, saying that a 1971 resolution recognizes Beijing - not Taipei - as China's representative to the world body. Andrew Ryan has more on this story from Taipei.
Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian on Tuesday spoke out against the United Nation's latest rejection of the island's bid for membership.
Mr. Chen says the Taiwan government believes that only the U.N. Security Council and the General Assembly have the right to decide on the application of the 23 million people of Taiwan to join the United Nations under the name "Taiwan." He says that no individual, including the office of the secretary-general, has the right to decide on Taiwan's application.
The secretary-general's office returned the application without having it discussed by the General Assembly. The secretary-general's staff says that under resolution 2748, which granted Beijing membership, Taiwan cannot have separate membership.
A spokesman for Taiwan's Foreign Ministry, David Wang, spoke against the U.N.'s rejection on Tuesday.
"Of course we feel very regrettable that [the] U.N. turned down Taiwan's application," he said. "We are fighting the resolution 2748. In our view, the resolution is outdated because it only discussed the admittance of the PRC [People's Republic of China] to the U.N., but nothing about Taiwan. So, in this global village, we think it's about time to review the whole situation."
Taiwan has applied for membership - and has been rejected - every year since 1993. But this year, for the first time, Taipei applied for membership under the name "Taiwan." Past bids were under the island's official name - the "Republic of China".
Despite the frustration at the rejection, the Foreign Ministry's Wang says it was no surprise, and that it will not be the last attempt.
"We understand pretty well that the road to membership is, you know, long and arduous," said Wang. "But still, if we don't do it today, sooner or later we have to face it. And what we [are] concerned is, if it's the right thing to do, its better to do it earlier than later."
China claims the self-governed island as its territory and slammed the U.N. application, saying that President Chen is trying to split the nation. Beijing has vowed to retake Taiwan by force if its government tries to declare formal independence.
Taipei had U.N. membership until 1971, when the seat was handed over to Beijing. Since then, the Beijing government has worked hard to diplomatically isolate Taiwan. Just over 20, mostly small, nations have full diplomatic ties with Taipei.

[Kaapeli]

Maybe China should wake up to reality already. Insisting that Taiwan is Chinese territory is just living in denial. Taiwan is independent in all but Chinese dreamworld.

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah, this is bull**** how Taiwan is treated in the world.

[Eusebius]

"Mr. Chen says the Taiwan government believes that only the U.N. Security Council and the General Assembly have the right to decide on the application of the 23 million people of Taiwan to join the United Nations under the name "Taiwan." He says that no individual, including the office of the secretary-general, has the right to decide on Taiwan's application."

Does he really think that will pass?

1. Security council
EVEN if recognition passes there, China and or Russia will veto the results. However, it is unlikely to pass anyhow, if we break down the vote.
China (http://www.china-un.org/eng/): Will vote no
France (http://www.un.int/france/frame_anglais/accueil_frame/accueil_ang.htm): Will probably vote no for Chinese relations sake
Russian Federation (http://www.un.int/russia/): Will probably vote no as long as relations with China remain harmonious
United Kingdom (http://www.ukun.org/): Might vote yes pending trans-Atlantic decisions
United States (http://www.un.int/usa/): As of now, will vote no for peace's sake, but might raise the issue with changing political climate. Afaik the current US positions is to maintain the status quo but refuse to consider Taiwenese independence.

2. General Asssembly
China has been waging an very expensive diplomatic war in winning over small nations worldwide into rejecting even recognition of Taiwen by either simply just giving them money, or offering lucrative deals with Chinese companies or offering development without political strings, i.e. economic aid without requirements of human rights or democratic improvements.
From what I have read, this strategy is working quite well, especially in the Caribeans and the African continent, worldwide they are essentially buying alot of votes, and the primary reason is obvious to all, to politically isolate Taiwen.


Personally speaking I don't think much of the UN at all, but if Taipei thinks they can win some sort of international chess with China, they simply will not, for better or worse.

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah I agree, but it seems like the UN is run by China and that's mess up. All of the members in the UN should make up their mind's who should be their and not China who's running the show.

[Ordie]

Yeah, this is bull**** how Taiwan is treated in the world.

Its not that bad.

Lack of UN representation does not hurt the ROC at all.

The ROC on Taiwan is one of the most dynamic and integrated economies in the world. In fact the ROC is the PRC largest "foriegn" investor.

Besides there are good benefits for ROC immigrants into the US. Every year the US allows for 40,000 ROC citizens to settle in the US. Because of the one China policy, the US allows that same number of PRC immigrants.

Therefore ROC nationals have a better chance of entering the US than thier PRC counterparts.

[manilaboy]

hmmm...so the UN is now china's dreamworld....


Maybe China should wake up to reality already. Insisting that Taiwan is Chinese territory is just living in denial. Taiwan is independent in all but Chinese dreamworld.

[honcda_hon]

Maybe China should wake up to reality already. Insisting that Taiwan is Chinese territory is just living in denial. Taiwan is independent in all but Chinese dreamworld.

i believe china will take over taiwan soon or later. hehe...

[Rakki]

Its not that bad.

Lack of UN representation does not hurt the ROC at all.

The ROC on Taiwan is one of the most dynamic and integrated economies in the world. In fact the ROC is the PRC largest "foriegn" investor.

Besides there are good benefits for ROC immigrants into the US. Every year the US allows for 40,000 ROC citizens to settle in the US. Because of the one China policy, the US allows that same number of PRC immigrants.

Therefore ROC nationals have a better chance of entering the US than thier PRC counterparts.

That's until you realize the number of umbrella UN organizations that Taiwan's not allowed to be in (incl. WHO, for example). Or how China uses the myth of "one China" to keep Taiwan out of trade organizations like ASEA...

Basically, China is doing all it can to isolate Taiwan so when it eventually decides to attack Taiwan, other countries won't intervene.

[Mamont]

Basically, China is doing all it can to isolate Taiwan so when it eventually decides to attack Taiwan, other countries won't intervene.
A good and proven strategy.

[Bohemoth]

Take a map and draw a line from Korea to Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines.
That's the buffer line for the mighty U.S. Pacific Fleet and to keep the big pond clean. Taiwan is a strategic keystone that will be protected by the Nations of the Free World. :)

[Mu-Meson]

I think this is actually a blessing in disguise for Taiwan. The UN is a corrupt organisation that I don't think any self-respecting democracy should be a part of. Forget Afghanistan, Canada should pullout of the UN.

[Ordie]

That's until you realize the number of umbrella UN organizations that Taiwan's not allowed to be in (incl. WHO, for example). Or how China uses the myth of "one China" to keep Taiwan out of trade organizations like ASEA...

Basically, China is doing all it can to isolate Taiwan so when it eventually decides to attack Taiwan, other countries won't intervene.

Not true.

There is no evidence of the PRC preventing any trade between Taiwan and the rest of the world. For the PRC, whats good for Taiwan is good for the PRC. Because Taiwan happens to be the largest investor in the PRC.

The ROC on Taiwan is member of the WTO, Asia Development Bank and APEC under auspices of China Taipei. The ROC has trade offices in 60 countries that does not have diplomatic relations including the US. And is doing quite well for a country with almost zero official bi-lateral relations than North Korea.

The ROC on Taiwan is independant. It has its own currency, government, military and society not under Beijing's control. The US has a moral and strategic commitment to the ROC. Thereore will intercede as it did in 1950 on the premise of keeping international sea lanes open for trade and stabililty.

I believe that the silent majority of both the PRC and the ROC want to keep the status quo for prosperity sake. And I think the leaders on both sides are aware of this and are very accomodating and pragmatic.

The problem lies in the nationalist domestic politics and attitudes of the "Chinese street". They will not permit Taiwans "independence" and any lack of action on part of the Communist Party will ultimately be overthrown. Same can be said of the DDP (Taiwanese Nationalist).

This is why the Communist Party is engaging "Economic Bear Hug" policy with Taiwan. By creating more communication, business, and familiy links with Taiwan, the less likely both sides will engage in conflict.

The best defence for Taiwan against any missiles, attack, invasion or blockade is to keep China in its title. It does not matter for how long since there is no deadline.

[Rakki]

Not true.

There is no evidence of the PRC preventing any trade between Taiwan and the rest of the world. For the PRC, whats good for Taiwan is good for the PRC. Because Taiwan happens to be the largest investor in the PRC.

The ROC on Taiwan is member of the WTO, Asia Development Bank and APEC under auspices of China Taipei. The ROC has trade offices in 60 countries that does not have diplomatic relations including the US. And is doing quite well for a country with almost zero official bi-lateral relations than North Korea.

The ROC on Taiwan is independant. It has its own currency, government, military and society not under Beijing's control. The US has a moral and strategic commitment to the ROC. Thereore will intercede as it did in 1950 on the premise of keeping international sea lanes open for trade and stabililty.

I believe that the silent majority of both the PRC and the ROC want to keep the status quo for prosperity sake. And I think the leaders on both sides are aware of this and are very accomodating and pragmatic.

The problem lies in the nationalist domestic politics and attitudes of the "Chinese street". They will not permit Taiwans "independence" and any lack of action on part of the Communist Party will ultimately be overthrown. Same can be said of the DDP (Taiwanese Nationalist).

This is why the Communist Party is engaging "Economic Bear Hug" policy with Taiwan. By creating more communication, business, and familiy links with Taiwan, the less likely both sides will engage in conflict.

The best defence for Taiwan against any missiles, attack, invasion or blockade is to keep China in its title. It does not matter for how long since there is no deadline.

No, you are wrong.

1. China encourages Taiwanese investments in China because quite simply, they can screw Taiwan over by nationalizing/confiscating it at any time - and there's nothing Taiwan can do about it. And every dollar invested in China is a dollar not invested in Taiwan (or anywhere else). When you find out that 60% of foreign investment in China comes from Taiwan, and then compare that to the amount of money pouring into China each year, that's a hell of a lot of ********s placed in a vice.

2. While ROC has trade offices (but not embassies) around the world and is a member of the WTO, if you have been paying attention you'll find China doing its best to exclude Taiwan from everything else - and even kick Taiwan out of existing organizations. And while Taiwan do trade with other countries around the world, it's kinda hard to sign FTAs with your neighbors if you don't have diplomatic recognition. There's also constant Chinese harassment at international conferences, including having the host country deny visas to Taiwanese representatives.

3. ROC might be independent in all but name but China keeps saying it's a province of China. If you look at any Chinese maps, they'll include it as a part of China as well. Ask any Chinese and most of them will say "Taiwan is a part of China". Basically, we have a 500 pound gorilla next door who keeps saying "all your island are belong to us".

With regards to the last two paragraphs, I think you are very much out of date on the attitudes in Taiwan. And no one can say for sure what the mad old men in Beijing will do if economic prosperity leads to domestic unrest. They may very well use Taiwan as a punching bag to build national unity.

[Ordie]

And no one can say for sure what the mad old men in Beijing will do if economic prosperity leads to domestic unrest. They may very well use Taiwan as a punching bag to build national unity.

I think its the other way around.

The old men are pretty much retired. The Party has been taken over by technocracts that generally lacks charisma, name recognition and respect compared with the PRC founders. This places the current leadership at a disadvantage.

The political leadership in the PRC is under a tremendous amount of pressure from the Chinese people interms of the economy, security, environment, urban growth and nationalisim. Any failure in response to these issues may result in the Communist Party losing power.

Unlike a generation ago, the majority of PRC citizens are now employed in the private sector outside government control. A large number of Chinese today have more access to information outside of government control. More and more Chinese are traveling outside of China being exposed to other news sources, cultures and norms including political information.

I believe the PRC leadership are rational actors in the global sence. It recognizes the importance of maintaining peace and prosperity with its neighbors and trading partners.

However, given that the PRC government no longer has control of information, individual Chinese now has access to information on Japanese lawmakers speeches and actions in regards to WW2. Or, speeches and actions of Taiwanese nationalist. In turn the Chinese people will demand some sort of reation from the PRC leadership.

Eventhough it may not be in the best interest of China and the Communist Party to endanger relations with its neighbors, it will always side to domestic pressure to do so, sometimes at the expense of international relations.

Two good examples were the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade and the US Navy mid-air collision with the PLAN fighter. In both of these cases the PRC Leadership were open to dialogue with the US, however, they were forced by the "Chinese Street" to drag it out.

In the case with the Bombing in Belgrade, it happened around the 10th anniversary of the Beijing Demostration and crackdown. The government "channeled" nationalist attituide towards the US Embassy as a means to draw attention away from Tienamen Square. However, the PRC Leadership was embarrased and scared by the out of control actions of the demonstrators throwing rocks, bricks and food at the embassy compound. The same is true about the actions gainst the Japanese Embassy.

The last two "Dynasties" (Qing and the Republic) lost the "Mandate of Heaven" because of nationalism. The same can be true for the Communist Party. However, this time around, it is no longer a domestic issue.

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah and I agree. Taiwan was also screwed over during SARS case which claimed over 150 people. They ask for help from WHO, but the WHO did'nt give them no information, because of One China policy. So Taiwan had to rely on WHO website to get anything done.

[Eusebius]

Take a map and draw a line from Korea to Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines.
That's the buffer line for the mighty U.S. Pacific Fleet and to keep the big pond clean. Taiwan is a strategic keystone that will be protected by the Nations of the Free World. :)

A nation which has trouble handling some rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan is not in much of a position to conduct a real and long term war with a nation as large as and strong China. Not to say the Chinese can hurt the US mainland, but to talk as if American power is still absolute is slightly off balance.

[Bohemoth]

A nation which has trouble handling some rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan is not in much of a position to conduct a real and long term war with a nation as large as and strong China. Not to say the Chinese can hurt the US mainland, but to talk as if American power is still absolute is slightly off balance.
So, how would your "large" and "strong" China deal better with Guerilla warfare in the Iraq and A-stan? Same Iron fist they use to deal with their domestic problems? Maybe we should tell the US not to win hearts & minds, but try it the Chinese way, huh? rofl

"Chinese can hurt the US mainland", but the US cannot to do this to China? rofl

[NeedsABetterName]

A nation which has trouble handling some rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan is not in much of a position to conduct a real and long term war with a nation as large as and strong China. Not to say the Chinese can hurt the US mainland, but to talk as if American power is still absolute is slightly off balance.

F-16s and aircraft carriers were not meant to fight insurgencies on the streets of Baghdad. The US military is much more focused on the fighting a war aspect (something that it excels at--see the actual 'war' part of Iraq and Afghanistan) than it is at fighting a bunch of twenty-something kids that dress, look like, and move among civilians at will, often times dropping the AK and becoming just another ordinary person.

With the insurgencies that we currently fight, you can either try to win the people's hearts and minds to stop their support for the insurgents or you can bomb the entire town and be done with it, a la Grozny. I'd like to see the Chinese do any better (or even an equal) a job in Iraq and Afghanistan.

P.S.: CNN reporting that a residential block full of innocents got leveled several nights in a row doesn't count.

China? Non-nuclear war? I'd like to see them try.

[Rakki]

I think its the other way around.

Eventhough it may not be in the best interest of China and the Communist Party to endanger relations with its neighbors, it will always side to domestic pressure to do so, sometimes at the expense of international relations.

Two good examples were the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade and the US Navy mid-air collision with the PLAN fighter. In both of these cases the PRC Leadership were open to dialogue with the US, however, they were forced by the "Chinese Street" to drag it out.

In the case with the Bombing in Belgrade, it happened around the 10th anniversary of the Beijing Demostration and crackdown. The government "channeled" nationalist attituide towards the US Embassy as a means to draw attention away from Tienamen Square. However, the PRC Leadership was embarrased and scared by the out of control actions of the demonstrators throwing rocks, bricks and food at the embassy compound. The same is true about the actions gainst the Japanese Embassy.

The last two "Dynasties" (Qing and the Republic) lost the "Mandate of Heaven" because of nationalism. The same can be true for the Communist Party. However, this time around, it is no longer a domestic issue.

Incorrect once again. You are confusing cause and effect. The Chinese government has been cultivating for years an anti-American, anti-Japanese agenda (e.g. complaints about shrine visits, Nanjing massacre etc.) If you look at how total China's efforts to suppress the Tiananmen Massacre are, you then realize that anti-foreign sentiments is not only tolerated - but also fostered and encouraged by the government. Why? Because it channels dissent and dissatisfaction away from the government. Even the embassy protests were switched off like a tap when the government decided that it had enough political advantage from western reports of angry demonstrations. (Riot police moved in, people carted off by the bus load, leaders put into protective custody etc.)

If you actually have any kind of regular contact with the Chinese "netizens", you'll find actually quite a high level of "China Great"/"China Strong"/"Taiwan Are Belongs to Us" sentiment. Much like the Japanese don't really know much about their WW2 atrocities - the Chinese population as a whole haven't really been challenged to think much about why Taiwan "shouldn't" be a part of China. There's much talk of "Blood" ties (or "Blut", as the Nationalist-Socialists would say) between Taiwan and China along with the "inviolable sovereignty" of China proper. (i.e Greater China). After all, why should they care about Taiwanese people's feelings? Or give a damn about Taiwan's democracy when they themselves have none?

And as far as the Chinese is concerned, they like to think of Taiwan as a domestic issue. Because as I've said before, they still think that Taiwan is a "breakaway province" and will one day be reunified with China once those pesky locals have been beaten into submission.

[Mobydog]

Take a map and draw a line from Korea to Japan, Taiwan and the Philippines.
That's the buffer line for the mighty U.S. Pacific Fleet and to keep the big pond clean. Taiwan is a strategic keystone that will be protected by the Nations of the Free World. :)err.. who's the threat, again ??

[Mobydog]

If you actually have any kind of regular contact with the Chinese "netizens", you'll find actually quite a high level of "China Great"/"China Strong"/"Taiwan Are Belongs to Us" sentiment. Much like the Japanese don't really know much about their WW2 atrocities - the Chinese population as a whole haven't really been challenged to think much about why Taiwan "shouldn't" be a part of China. There's much talk of "Blood" ties (or "Blut", as the Nationalist-Socialists would say) between Taiwan and China along with the "inviolable sovereignty" of China proper. (i.e Greater China). After all, why should they care about Taiwanese people's feelings? Or give a damn about Taiwan's democracy when they themselves have none?Conversely, if you interchange the word "Taiwan/Taiwanese" with "China/Chinese" the result will be similiar.. especially two decade ago. The Taiwan constitution still claims all of China Proper.


And as far as the Chinese is concerned, they like to think of Taiwan as a domestic issue. Because as I've said before, they still think that Taiwan is a "breakaway province" and will one day be reunified with China once those pesky locals have been beaten into submission.Taiwan and China is technically still at Civil War , isn't it ? And the Nationalist KMT did indeed retreat to Taiwan, and during that time, the KMT also did beat the original local Taiwanese in submission.. there were also some massacre that occurred (read that somewhere in the Taiwanese News, awhile ago)

[MichaelF]

A nation which has trouble handling some rebels in Iraq and Afghanistan is not in much of a position to conduct a real and long term war with a nation as large as and strong China.

Yes, because rebuilding a Nation the size of California (bigger than most EU Member-states), filled with (heavily armed) people not pleased to be each other's neighbours, 10,000 miles away from our own territory, is so easy anyone can do it.

Your analogy privileges have been revoked for two weeks.

[Ordie]

the KMT also did beat the original local Taiwanese in submission.. there were also some massacre that occurred (read that somewhere in the Taiwanese News, awhile ago)

February 28, 1947 (2-28)
KMT sent troops from Fujian to crackdown on the Taiwanese. approx 4,000 people were killed. The uprising was sparked by KMT police confiscating black market cigarettes.

The KMT effectively erased any mention until the lifting of Martial Law and return to multi-party elections. 2-28 is a watershed event for Taiwanese Nationalist.

[Ordie]

If you actually have any kind of regular contact with the Chinese "netizens", you'll find actually quite a high level of "China Great"/"China Strong"/"Taiwan Are Belongs to Us" sentiment. Much like the Japanese don't really know much about their WW2 atrocities - the Chinese population as a whole haven't really been challenged to think much about why Taiwan "shouldn't" be a part of China. There's much talk of "Blood" ties (or "Blut", as the Nationalist-Socialists would say) between Taiwan and China along with the "inviolable sovereignty" of China proper. (i.e Greater China). After all, why should they care about Taiwanese people's feelings? Or give a damn about Taiwan's democracy when they themselves have none?
.

I do not have any contacts nor I choose to have any contact with the Chinese "netzians". What people say and do in person and what they write are two different animals.

Same is true for governments and politicians. What they say and what they actually do are two different matters.

Fact of the matter is that both the ROC and PRC have alot in common. Especially when it comes to Sun Yat Sen's three principles of Democracy, Nationalism, and Economic Well Being

The ROC has achieved Economic Well Being and Democracy but falls short on Nationalism.

The PRC has achieved Economic Well Being and Nationalism but falls short on Democracy.

I'd give it another 25 years for both the ROC and PRC to be on an equal footing. In some ways the PRC is undergoing identical economic - political changes that the ROC underwent in the late 70's and 1980's.

Much of it depends on meeting the demands of the the PRC's rising middle class for economic security, transparency, stability, and due process of legal matters. When these demands are met, civil liberties tend to follow as in the case with South Korea and the ROC.

As for the "textbook wars" the Japanese should include its occupation role and outcomes in thier textbooks. On the same token the Chinese textbooks should include the post war development and outcomes of Japan.

After all there is no need to fight because the ROC signed a peace treaty in 1950 and PRC in 1978 with Japan.

In sum, regardless of the rehtoric, Japan and China enjoy good relations, so much so that Japanese citizens are exempt from having a visa to enter the PRC for a short stay. A privilage only given to a few nations.

Many young Japanese entrepenuers and artist are finding thier way to Shanghai and former salarymen are finding new jobs in Taipei and Hong Kong. Japanese Babyboomers are also seeking cheaper living in the ROC.

Again what people say is not the same what people do.

[Zerazax]

The anti US and Japanese sentiment of China is very overblown in the media. Yes, there are still lingering feelings towards Japan, but the US? When I visited there, a lot of people were interested in US and European culture. They have their issues with the US government, but they separate the government with the people and culture quite well. They try very hard to get with American culture and I think you'd be surprised with how much they want American brand labels, movies, etc.

As far as the PRC labeling Taiwan a province... well uh, look at official ROC maps, it has all of China + Mongolia (technically labeled as a province called Outer Mongolia) on its official maps. Here's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.jpg

Those borders would coincide with the borders the ROC had inherited after the fall of the Qing dynasty.

Anyways, I highly doubt the UN would've allowed Taiwan in with a vote anyways. Taiwan has very few official relations with nations in the world and that number decreases each year as nations switch relations from Taiwan to PRC. Also, all 5 perm members of the security council are likely to veto the motion anyways due to international relations, economics, and reasons.

As far as the PRC invading Taiwan - i doubt it for economic reasons. Not only would it wreck economic relations that are currently keeping the PRC growing, but also because the PRC is now in the position of power. As late as the late 90's, the PRC was willing to offer concession to Taiwan for reunification (such as the 2nd highest seat in the PRC's government being elected by Taiwan, Taiwan keeping its currency, government, laws, and military, etc.). But now that the PRC has the world's fastest growing economy, increasing prosperity, and political power, it sees no reason to offer concessions when it can just play the waiting game and integrate Taiwan's people to the point where reunification will happen one way or another.

Believe it or not, more than a million Taiwan citizens now reside in the PRC. Almost all the major manufacturing and high tech corporations that once were on Taiwan are now in China. In fact, that was a large reason why Taiwan's economy has sagged in recent years, as many of those jobs have been lost to the PRC. In turn though, many more citizens go to China to do business. In Shanghai alone, 100,000+ Taiwan citizens reside there.

Also, a lot of the Taiwan vs. China culture is a matter of convenience. In Taiwan, they say they're Taiwanese. In China, they say they're Chinese. Since both sides speak the same language, write the same language, and hold many of the same traditions and ancestry, the transition is seamless. Honestly, nowadays, I feel the slogan "it's all about the money" is very true.

Speaking with cousins in Taiwan that are in their early twenties, a large trend among their friends is to do business in China. Hell, those who are waiting to serve in the military often go to China for vacation or business with the caveat that they must set foot on Taiwan at least once every 2-3 months. It's really ironic that you can be waiting in line to be called for mandatory service in Taiwan's army while playing golf on the mainland. (On a similar note, the number of people being called to serve is decreasing, a sign that tensions just aren't what people perceive it to be. A cousin of mine waited two years before they said they didn't need him serving. Increasing amounts of people are no longer being called).

Another ironic story is that my uncle is a high ranking deputy minister in the Taiwan government and so he cannot set foot on China. His wife, however, is a manager of a major factory in Ningbo, China, and travels frequently between there and here. Their son, lives in Taiwan for school but goes to China often as well during the summer to spend time with the mother. He, however, was born in the US and is an American citizen, though dual-citizenship with Taiwan now.

It's really a lot more complex than people think honestly.

[Eusebius]

So, how would your "large" and "strong" China deal better with Guerilla warfare in the Iraq and A-stan? Same Iron fist they use to deal with their domestic problems? Maybe we should tell the US not to win hearts & minds, but try it the Chinese way, huh? rofl

"Chinese can hurt the US mainland", but the US cannot to do this to China? rofl

Hearts and minds in Iraq? Is that a joke? The only hearts and minds Americans are winning in Iraq are the ones splattered on the streets by the hundreds.

China isn't dumb enough to engage in a war it could not win anyhow.

You can mock all you want, but China is not the one losing soldiers daily in a country which hates them, and in which hundreds of billions of dollars have been wasted.

Like I said, a nation who can not win a war against some peasants in Iraq and Afghanistan is not really in a position to challenge another world power despite all the truly great merits both the American people and their military do possess.