Adolph Hitler Meets with Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini

[Kilo]

http://www.youtube.com/v/arG6N46CbmY

[Alpheus]

An excellent DVD, I recommend everyone should try to see it.

[LRPV]

If Hitler had been successful in his 'final solution', I wonder if he would have then turned upon the Arabs as being 'untermensch'?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Hitler met with lots of people including British politicians and Royals, foreign ambassadors etc
So what?

Given that Palestine was under British occupation at the time how was this Mufti bloke supposed to actually achieve anything?
I guess there's no film of the Lehi group's attempts to do a deal with the Nazis to attack the British on their behalf?

[Kilgor]

Hitler met with lots of people including British politicians and Royals, foreign ambassadors etc
So what?



Did they activity endorse his final solution ?

[LMAV]

Hitler met with lots of people including British politicians and Royals, foreign ambassadors etc
So what?


Were the other people he met with interested in killing jews?

[toki]

Did they activity endorse his final solution ?

Not neccessarily, but the Nazis had lots of international friends/patrons/sponsors. Ford for example. All this is hardly news.

[LMAV]

The Nazis had lots of international sponsors. Ford for example. All this is hardly news.

Ford didn't have propaganda posters lining the streets that said "In heaven Allah is thy ruler; on earth Adolph Hitler", now did they?

[toki]

Ford didn't have propaganda posters lining the streets that said "In heaven Allah is thy ruler; on earth Adolph Hitler", now did they?
No, probably worse. The company was active in financial and logistical support until the beginning of the war.
Henry Ford published an essay that reached Hitler in the 20's. "The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem".

Again, nothing new here. Google and you'll find countless examples.

[Mr. Nielsen]

The british controls palestine and prevents the palestinians from getting independence. And at the same time allows european immigrants of jewish faith to enter palestine, where they intent to make a jewish state at the expense of the palestinians.

Hitler on the other hand is at war with the british, and don't like jews.

So not surprisingly the grand mufti jumps on the wagon where he believe he will get the most help for his people (or rather his own interests). Had Hitler not been specifically after the jews, some jews may have tried to obtain his help in evicting the british from Palestine, since the british stood in the way of the jews taking over palestine and unhindered immigration.

And claiming that the Grand Mufti had any significant influence if any at all on the german final solution, is way over blown.

[Palmach]

Historical revisionism is on the march. Mufti is a freedom fighter, Hitler "didn't like jews", mufti had no impact on the final solution and so on.... Sad.

Shell we overlook the fact that the cleric was not only fully aware of the final solution, he was actively involved in raising muslim SS division in the Balkans? Should we ignore the simple truth that he was never interested in independence, but rather devoted all his energies to killing of his rivals - not like the history of the 1936 "uprising" hasn't been pubished.

[timetraveller]

Interesting .

[lider_r]

just to even things up a bit :)



http://nobeliefs.com/images/hitler%26bishop.gif
Hitler mets with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin,April 20, 1939 (http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm)

[little icebear]

Historical revisionism is on the march. Mufti is a freedom fighter, Hitler "didn't like jews", mufti had no impact on the final solution and so on.... Sad.


Do you really believe Hitler gave a sh!t about your Mufti? :bash:

He hated Jews as well but the main point lies somewhere else, dude. Shouldn´t be hard to figure out.

[DeltaWhisky58]

This thread has no place in Political Discussions and Rants, it portrays events of well over 60 years ago - moved.

[Palmach]

Do you really believe Hitler gave a sh!t about your Mufti? :bash:

He hated Jews as well but the main point lies somewhere else, dude. Shouldn´t be hard to figure out.

Hmmm.... actually your post is a little hard to figure out. What is it that you are trying to say?

[little icebear]

The Mufti was just another usefull tool. Do you really think that someone like Hitler, with an ideologie based on racial supremacy would consider some "raghead" as an equal?
He hated the British, he hated the Jews, he could mobilize some Troops. That´s it.
If you really think he had any impact on the final solution than you must be kidding.

[DeltaWhisky58]

If anyone else tries to derail this thread, I will lock it. Little icebear has gone on vacation.

[Kitsune]

I must concur with this. Hitler hated Jews, that is certain. He may not even have hated the English in that sense, but they were enemies in the war. And for the for the war effort one seeks allies - the other nations involved did this as well. As such the mufti was a tool - albeit a tool that was hatching its bets itself and that was trying to further its own agenda.
Did consider Hitler a "raghead" as an equal? No. (But would Churchill, Roosevelt or Stalin have done so in the strictest sense of the word?)
Would Hitler have turned on Muslims next to mark them for extermination? I think one can safely say "definitely not" here. The Holocaust was partly based upon the antisemite belief that Jews would have "invented Bolshevism" and that any Jewish community would be a prime breeding ground for this virulent ideology that would spread it like an infection. The other part seems to have been Hitler's suspicion that the US support of Germany's war enemies, even of the dastardly Sovietunion, was the work of a conspiracy of influential Jews and that Hitler wanted to avenge this. After the decision of extermination was made, other groups like homo******s or gypsies were thrown on the heap but there was never a plan to do so with Muslims.

[Kilgor]

And claiming that the Grand Mufti had any significant influence if any at all on the German final solution, is way over blown.

And now we came to the meat of the argument. It can easily be proven that the highest religious figure in "Palestine" had endorsed the mass of extermination of jews. There are documents to prove this. This of course is very unfortunate for those who claim Israeli policies are to blame for arab anti Semitism. Clearly such hatred was well established before the state of Israel and its so called oppressive measures.

Yes, Hitler met with many heads of states, religious and business figures. However when one gives such support to his policy of jew extermination, that is another matter.

This is all from wiki, so its not a tough search.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Himmler_to_Mufti_telegram_1943.png

November 2, 1943 Himmler's telegram to Mufti:

"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory.

Signed: Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"

In Nazi-occupied Europe

Upon al-Husayni's arrival in Europe, he met the German Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop on November 20, 1941 and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on November 30, 1941 in Berlin.[5] He asked Hitler for a public declaration that "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation, and that it would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland". Earlier, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft of such a declaration, containing a clause:

Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.[6]

Hitler refused to make such a public announcement, but "made the following declaration, requesting the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:

1. He (the Führer) would carry on the fight until the last traces of the Jewish-Communist European hegemony had been obliterated.
2. In the course of this fight, the German army would - at a time that could not yet be specified, but in any case in the clearly foreseeable future - gain the southern exit of Caucasus.
3. As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Führer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the Vernichtung des...Judentums ['destruction of the Jewish element', sometimes taken to be a euphemism for 'annihilation of the Jews'] living under British protection in Arab lands.." [7]

On March 1, 1944, while speaking on Radio Berlin, al-Husayni said:

Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.[8]


Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg [6] by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann from Stuttgart University and Martin Cüppers from the University of Ludwigsburg, indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, "the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem."[7] According to the German researchers Husayni was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews. Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann[8], Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust[10][9],[10],[11],[12],[13].


To Lider-R , show me proof that the archbishop had similar aims as the grand mufti did.

[lider_r]

To Lider-R , show me proof that the archbishop had similar aims as the grand mufti did.

The page (http://nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm#anchor1052474) i mentioned earlier has details of the Churchs involvment during WWII


On April 25, thousands of Catholic priests across Germany became part of an anti-Semitic attestation bureaucracy, supplying details of blood purity through marriage and baptism registries in accordance with the Nazi Nuremberg laws which distinguished Jews from non-Jews. Catholic clerical compliance in the process would continue throughout the period of the Nazi regime. [Cornwell, pp.154] Any claimed saving of all-too-few Jewish lives by a few brave Catholics must stand against the millions who died in the death camps as an indirect result of the official workings of the Catholic body.
Come to think of it wasn't our beloved incumbent pope in a hitler youth squad? But he hadn't a choice in that matter of course, even though God had bestowed him with free will. Apparently.

[BloodyTalon]

Come to think of it wasn't our beloved incumbent pope in a hitler youth squad? But he hadn't a choice in that matter of course, even though God had bestowed him with free will. Apparently.
:roll: 2005 called. it wants its retarded, meaningless rhetoric back.

The Hitler Youth was mandatory by 1939. My grandfather, in fact, was forced to join even though our family opposed the Nazi Party just as Pope Benedict and his family had. And the Pope happened to rebel the only way he could; by being a crappy HY member and deserting when he had the opportunity:
http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/topics/new_pope_defied_nazis.htm


TRAUNSTEIN, Germany (AP) -- Blinds drawn, windows closed, Joseph Ratzinger huddled with his father and older brother around a radio and listened to Allied radio broadcasts, volume on low.

It was a small and risky act of defiance in this conservative Bavarian village deep inside Adolf Hitler's Germany. But the father wanted his sons to know the truth about the Nazis and World War II, says Georg Ratzinger, who like his brother drew strength from the Catholic Church.

''It was strictly forbidden. Anyone who was caught would be sent to the concentration camps, so we did it secretively,'' Georg Ratzinger told The Associated Press. ''The German news was not true and he wanted to hear from the foreign services what was really happening.''

The clandestine sessions were just one of the passive acts of resistance, evasions and escapes by the future Pope Benedict XVI, whose choices then -- enrolling in the Hitler Youth as required and the Army when drafted as he approached age 18 -- allowed him to survive.

People who knew the Ratzingers said they were never willingly part of the Nazi machine.

Frieda Jochner, 79, who grew up in their old neighborhood and speaks with a thick, warm Bavarian accent, remembered the ''Ratzinger boys'' as pious and serious -- Georg as the ''Bavarian one'' -- a friendly joker -- and the studious Joseph as the more shy of the two.

She said Joseph Ratzinger was so involved in his studies at the Catholic seminary that even if he had wanted to be active in the Hitler Youth, he never would have had the time.

''He was very industrious,'' she said, taking a break decorating the Ratzingers' childhood home with wreaths, pine boughs and ribbons.

Renate Augerer, 75, remembered the brothers from the town's school, where they were both known as being serious, scholarly, pious and kind -- two Catholic priests in the making.

''He was very certainly not for Hitler,'' Augerer said of Joseph Ratzinger. ''Absolutely not. They couldn't do anything about it. ... You can't forget the times.''

Max Fiedler, 77, said he also was compelled to join the Hitler Youth when the Nazis took over the Catholic youth group he was in and merged it into their organization.

''It was automatic,'' said Fiedler, who had joined Augerer at a reception in the small Traunstein town hall following a Mass in Ratzinger's honor last week.

Some 80 to 90 percent of Germans joined the Hitler Youth and refusing to sign up could mean being sent to a youth ''reeducation camp,'' akin to a concentration camp, said Volker Dahm, director of Nazi-era research for Munich's Institute for Contemporary History.

''You could try to avoid it but it was very, very difficult,'' Dahm said. ''It was a bit easier to avoid it if you lived in a big city where you could hide yourself in the crowd, but in the countryside it was nearly impossible because everyone knew you.''

Pope John Paul II had covertly resisted the Nazis in occupied Poland, helping form an underground theater and enrolling in a clandestine seminary run by the archbishop of Krakow.

In Germany, opportunities for outright defiance were limited -- and dangerous. Those who did resist met horrible fates, such as two famous student leaders in Munich, Hans and Sophie Scholl, who were caught distributing anti-Nazi leaflets in 1942 and executed by guillotine.

Pope Benedict, 78, has not tried to hide his enrollment in the Hitler Youth at age 14, addressing his brief membership in his autobiography, ''Salt of the Earth.''

''We weren't in it to start with, but with the beginning of the obligatory Hitler Youth in 1941 my brother was enrolled as was required,'' he recalled. ''I was too young but later was enrolled into it from the seminary.''

Benedict implies it was the school that did the enrolling, but he doesn't make it clear.

He said he tried to avoid Hitler Youth meetings, creating a dilemma. He needed proof of attendance to get a tuition discount, which his father -- a retired policeman -- badly needed. So he finessed it, according to his book.

''Thank God, there was a math teacher who understood. He was himself a Nazi party member, but an honest man who told me, 'Just go so we have it,''' he recalled. ''But when he saw that I simply didn't want to, he said: 'I understand, I'll take care of it.' And so I was free of it.''

With so little active resistance to the Nazis, small gestures of defiance were telling, said Johannes Tuchel, director of the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin.

''The color of resistance is not black and white, it's a scale of gray,'' Tuchel said. ''It was not a single decision, not a single choice -- you don't just say one day 'I resist.'

''Every day you had to decide if you were going to go with the Nazi system or step aside. To resist is a long-term decision,'' he added.

The Ratzingers moved to Traunstein in 1937. The father was anti-Nazi and had to move from the town of Tittmoning to Auschau in 1932 after clashing with local Nazi party supporters.

In Traunstein, resistance came largely from communists, though there were never many in the town of about 12,000 and most were arrested and shipped to the Dachau concentration camp in the early 1930s. Though most were later released, they lived in fear of being returned to the camps, according to Traunstein historian Friedbert Muehldorfer.

Being sent to a concentration camp for not joining the Hitler Youth would have been an ''extreme'' punishment, but ''it was very difficult for youth who didn't join, and they could be ostracized,'' Muehldorfer said. ''It doesn't mean they were enthusiastic about the Nazis.''

The Nazis enjoyed general support in Traunstein, though it was tempered by the conservative Roman Catholicism typical of Bavaria. People were disgruntled with the Nazis' anti-church attitudes and practices such as removing crosses from school classrooms, Muehldorfer said.

The town had only a few Jewish families, largely driven out before the war began in 1939.

In 1943, at age 16, Joseph Ratzinger was called up along with his entire seminary class to work as a helper for anti-aircraft batteries, which defended a BMW plant and later an aircraft factory at Oberpfaffenhofen, where the first German jet fighters were produced.

In 1944, he was forced into the country's compulsory civil service and sent to dig anti-tank ditches on the Austrian-Hungarian border.

He recounts his work group being awakened in the middle of the night and pressured to join the Waffen SS, the combat units of the Nazi Party's elite guard. ''An SS officer had each one come forward and tried, by parading each one in front of the group, to force 'volunteer' enlistments,'' he wrote in another autobiographical book, ''Memoirs 1927-1977.''

Some signed up in ''this criminal group. I had the luck to be able to say that I had the intent to become a Catholic priest. We were sent away with scorn and insults.''

He was drafted into the Army in December 1944 and stationed near Traunstein. With the German army collapsing and the end of the war just days away, he deserted in April or May of 1945 -- he said he can't remember the exact date. He knew he could be killed by SS fanatics, who continued to shoot or hang soldiers found out of uniform up until the end of the war.

Sneaking home by a roundabout way, he was stopped by two soldiers as he emerged from under a train overpass. ''For a moment, the situation was extremely critical for me,'' he remembered. But the soldiers ''were ones who, thank God, had had enough of war'' and let him go, treating him as wounded because he had his arm in a sling.

Tuchel, the director of the German Resistance Memorial in Berlin, said that even in wartime Germany young men like Ratzinger could find quiet ways to defy authority.

''There is always a choice. You have to go into the Hitler Youth, but then it is your decision if you are going to be an active member,'' Tuchel said. ''You have to go into the labor service, but it's your decision if you're very active. ... You had no choice to go into the army, but it is your decision how long you stay.''

Because Benedict acknowledged his past and because of the circumstances of his involvement, most people, including Jewish groups in Germany and Israel, have been understanding.

''He was a very young person when this happened, it was hardly a matter of choice, and what counts is what he's done in the last 30 years in Jewish-Catholic dialogue,'' said Deidre Berger, director of the American Jewish Committee's Berlin office.

At the right time, she suggested, the pope may share more of his past.

''We do have someone who has memories of the time, who certainly participated ... on the side of people who were perpetrating mass crimes. So I think the appropriate thing is that at the appropriate moment he is reflective about this personal biography -- it will mean a lot in the Jewish world.''

The Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial center in Jerusalem doesn't see a need for further investigation of Ratzinger's Hitler Youth membership, said spokeswoman Estee Yaari.

Ephraim Zuroff, the director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Israel, said there two ways of dealing with the issue.

''One way is delving into the subject and emphasizing it. The other is by doing positive things to improve Jewish-Christian relations and German-Jewish relations without necessarily emphasizing his own personal experiences or his past,'' Zuroff said. ''My impression is that he's chosen the latter path.''

[DeltaWhisky58]

The page (http://nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm#anchor1052474) i mentioned earlier has details of the Churchs involvment during WWII


Come to think of it wasn't our beloved incumbent pope in a hitler youth squad? But he hadn't a choice in that matter of course, even though God had bestowed him with free will. Apparently.

This post is very close to crossing the line - not being a Catholic I'm not sure if they would find it offensive or not - take my warning and show more tact/better judgement in future. You don't get a second warning.

N.B. I will close this thrread/infract posters if you can't keep this in the striaght and narrow.

[Mr. Nielsen]

And now we came to the meat of the argument. It can easily be proven that the highest religious figure in "Palestine" had endorsed the mass of extermination of jews.

But the paper you presents doesn't mention mass-extermination in anyway.



"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory.


He asked Hitler for a public declaration that "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation, and that it would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland".

The jewish homeland would be at the expense of the palestinian home land. The same way that the jews found that a palestinian home land would be at the expense of a jewish home land and also had to be dealt with.


"the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem."[7] According to the German researchers Husayni was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews.

Is it possible that there is a more simple explanation for the Muftis animosity towards jews, than ingrained anti-semitism?

Could it be that this hatred of the jews in part were based on the fear of being dispossed from his own land by the jews?

[toki]

This post is very close to crossing the line - not being a Catholic I'm not sure if they would find it offensive or not - take my warning and show more tact/better judgement in future. You don't get a second warning.

N.B. I will close this thrread/infract posters if you can't keep this in the striaght and narrow.

I'd say it has less to do with being catholic, but making criminals out of kids, catholic or not, joining Hitler youth is offending. There can be endless discussions about German soldiers for all i care. But relating a past in the Hitler youth to the assumption the Pope being a closet Nazi is offending. I'm catholic, more or less on paper, but that has nothing to do with it IMHO.

[Limeyfellow]

If Hitler had been successful in his 'final solution', I wonder if he would have then turned upon the Arabs as being 'untermensch'?

Considering that the vast majority of Arabs were on the side of the Allies and one or two people siding with the Germans as part of a anti British initive doesn't mean snot.