U.S. Christians voice support for Palestinian state

[Loki77]

Coalition of American evangelicals issues a letter in support of a Palestinian state http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/29/america/29evangelical-web.php U.S. Christians voice support for Palestinian state http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/29/news/church.php

[AlterMega]

................................
ahh, nevermind.

[Chulo]

Good,now all they need to do is go spread their evangelical message inside of Palestine.Then once they get shot at a few times for imposing different beliefs, they will have a better perspective on things.
who said anything about goin in on a mission trip to convert people? The article just says some leaders voiced some support of a diffrent people group?

[AlterMega]

who said anything about goin in on a mission trip to convert people? The article just says some leaders voiced some support of a diffrent people group?

you caught me before i could edit my post:oops:

[Mr. Nielsen]

Coalition of American evangelicals issues a letter in support of a Palestinian state http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/29/america/29evangelical-web.php U.S. Christians voice support for Palestinian state http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/29/news/church.php
Anti-semitic bastards. :lol:

[Loki77]

Anti-semitic bastards. :lol:

What about that article looks anti-semitic to you?

[WarriorMonk]

What about that article looks anti-semitic to you?

sarcasm...obviously. :P

[dangerclose]

Thankfully, it's not up to them.

[JJC]

I wonder what the hardcore Evangelicals say about the group? No one from the players are denying a state to Palestinians, but Palestinians themselves, through their actions and/or inactions.

[mas-36]

Hmmm.... now I'm confused. All this time, the evangelical Christians have been telling everyone that there are no such things as "Palestinians".

Another case of the "foot in mouth disease" by the Bible thumpers?

[gaijinsamurai]

I think it's a step in the right direction. Obviously, the Palestinians need to show the Israelis that they will not use the territories as a base for terrorism against Israel before they can be trusted, but if Evangelical groups want to be taken seriously as compassionate Christians, it's time they recognized that Palestinians in the West Bank should have the right to live in their own state.

[Mr. Nielsen]

I think it's a step in the right direction. Obviously, the Palestinians need to show the Israelis that they will not use the territories as a base for terrorism against Israel before they can be trusted, but if Evangelical groups want to be taken seriously as compassionate Christians, it's time they recognized that Palestinians in the West Bank should have the right to live in their own state.
Now what will it take for the palestinians to recognize Israel? Will Israel have to prove that it will NOT allow it's territory to be used as a base for occupation of palestinian areas, and the violence needed to suppress the civilian population in the area?

Just sounds a little like turning the issue upside down. It's the israelis that are occupiers, not the palestinians. It's the Israelis that have placed 400.000 of it's citizens in the occupied territories, proving that the occupation is criminal, and not a legitimate part of armed conflict. It's they Israelis that hold the palestinians in strangehold with road blocks, the illegal seperation wall etc.

[~Berdan]

Now what will it take for the palestinians to recognize Israel? Will Israel have to prove that it will NOT allow it's territory to be used as a base for occupation of palestinian areas, and the violence needed to suppress the civilian population in the area?

Just sounds a little like turning the issue upside down. It's the israelis that are occupiers, not the palestinians. It's the Israelis that have placed 400.000 of it's citizens in the occupied territories, proving that the occupation is criminal, and not a legitimate part of armed conflict. It's they Israelis that hold the palestinians in strangehold with road blocks, the illegal seperation wall etc.

Where is the ownership bill that prooves those 400,000 live in occupied territories?
What entity legaly owns that land?You talk about territories like it's one big coherent chunk of land belongs to entire nation of "Balastin".If I am not mistaken,prior to 1947 tribes owned part of the land,while the mandat(be it British,French,or Osman) owned the rest.
Where is the proof those illegal 400,000 live on land that previously belonged to someone?(you know,like lots and lots of people in Europe live in houses previously belonged to them jews ;))
Many Araps still have the keys for their houses located deep inside Tel abib or Jaffo.Show me one that holds an ownership bill for some forsaken hill near some west bank Arap city...

[SOG]

Hmmm.... now I'm confused. All this time, the evangelical Christians have been telling everyone that there are no such things as "Palestinians".

Another case of the "foot in mouth disease" by the Bible thumpers?

no, its a case of wanting the Palestinians to form a solid state to stop be used in prxy wars by their neighbors. as long as the Palestinians remain piecemeal they can be used by iran/syria in proxy. with a formal government they could be officially accountable as one entity, sanctioned, worked with etc. same with lebanon. the government needs to work with outside forces and push hezzbola out and maintain one front.

wont happen, but when you join the rat race properly, you can be worked with and held accountable properly.

[gaijinsamurai]

Most people, with the exception of a few ultra-hardcore right-wingers, see the establishment of some sort of Palestinian state in the West Bank as inevitable. When that state becomes a reality, and how much territory the Palestinians actually get, is uncertain, and will largely be determined by how the Palestinians handle what autonomy they have in the meantime.

[Redguy]

I can almost guarantee that these "30 evangelical leaders" will not find much support within the modern day Christian church. And people need to get real, this has been going on for years, the only way for the situation over there to work is for one side to, well, win.

[SOG]

well thats the problem, if israel won by pancaking palistine, the arab world would riot and go to war. if someone moved against israel, well that would be a major war. you have one side that is successful and modern etc, the other side poor, manipulated and smuggled arms. an overall idea would be: stop arming israel, take that money and prop up the actual people of paistine and the government to a point where the extremists have less of a way in through poverty and religion. make the people more content and empower them and they would be less willing to die for retarded causes.

its not a bad idea, but i think too many forces are against that happening on both sides. so what we have is a nasty stalemate that will go on forever. in some cases, israel called the others bluffs like in lebanon recently and lebanon had to sit back and view their tolerance of hezzbola and what it means to their society and structure.

[budgie]

Question: does anyone here think that Palestinians do not deserve a homeland alongside Israel in the region?

[SOG]

i think they do and id love if they could get enough support to build and maintain some sort of business structure that could really get people working in that country instead of crossing into israel in droves. i mean, they could be a wonderful tourist city and rake in the bucks if theyd knock off the ****ing jihad ****. great places, great food, good tourism, run it with a iron hand.

sure israel would always have a need for cheaper workers, but there is no reason whatsoever the pals couldnt pull their **** together, finalize a border everyone agrees on with some heavy handedness from the UN helping them along, and make something worthwhile on their side of the border. give these poeple something to be proud of and live for.

yeah, magic sounding. aint gonna happen as long as the wolves remain of different opinion. but it would still be cool.

[LRPV]

Question: does anyone here think that Palestinians do not deserve a homeland alongside Israel in the region?

Don't they have one? They already have Gaza and will probably get the West Bank.

[Cralis]

I think that the west bank should go back to Jordan, where it came from.

I think that the golan heights should go back to Syria, where it came from.

And I think that the gaza strip should go back to Egypt, where it came from.

Just like Israel tried to negotiate when they took them over in the first place. Thats right folks, Israel has tried on multiple occasions to return those territories, and those countries refused to even talk to them.

Then I think that Jerusalem should go back to the Israelis, who built it in the first place.

Then we can start all over. Only this time I'm pretty sure a full-out war would be fatal for the Arabs. It would be a welcome change to this crap they've got going on right now.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Just like Israel tried to negotiate when they took them over in the first place. Thats right folks, Israel has tried on multiple occasions to return those territories, and those countries refused to even talk to them.
Really. It's true that Israel has been willing to negotiate peace several times. But the catch is that Israel wanted peace without returning the occupied territories or allow refugees to return to their homes.

[Palmach]

Really. It's true that Israel has been willing to negotiate peace several times. But the catch is that Israel wanted peace without returning the occupied territories or allow refugees to return to their homes.

Eveidently, Israel WAS willing to give up the Sinai. "Refugees" is a non-starter.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Eveidently, Israel WAS willing to give up the Sinai. "Refugees" is a non-starter.From 1967 (or 1948 for that matter) israeli unwillingness to give up occupied territory blocked all attempts at making peace. The exception came in 1973, when Egypt showed sufficient military strength to be taken seriously by Israel.

[Cralis]

Really. It's true that Israel has been willing to negotiate peace several times. But the catch is that Israel wanted peace without returning the occupied territories or allow refugees to return to their homes.

This is incorrect.

Israel wanted to give back the territories in exchange for peace agreements, which were refused. Then Israel attempted to give back the people and those countries refused to take them. You think Israel wanted a few million extra Arabs hanging around in land they couldn't give back?

It wasn't until the mid-1980's that the Palestinian people ever called themselves Palestinians...in fact, up until that point they refused to be called it and were never recognized as such by other Arab leaders.

I personally think the entire thing was a setup by the Arab countries. Ok we lost - lets leave the land and the people in Israeli hands so we have something to complain about years from now. It just turned out better than they thought. Too bad millions of Palestinians suffer...

...or do they? They are richer, live longer, have more education, and less child deaths then they did BEFORE Israel took over the lands.

Try this out: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf6.html

It has a complete list of sources, and so far I've not been able to find one that has been inaccurately used, and many of their sources are independent.

The flip-side is that almost every anti-Israeli site I've ever seen either doesn't list sources, uses them inaccurately, or uses known bad sources. Check it out - things aren't what they seem - and they never are.

[dangerclose]

Jordan is a palestinian state.

[budgie]

Jordan is a palestinian state? That's a copout - the government of Jordan will not easily give over to its large Palestinian population - most of whom are refugees or exiles anyway.

There may be two states on paper but as long as Israeli settlements remain in the West Bank there will not be a viable Palestinian state. They need to get back their pre-1967 possessions, including Arab East Jerusalem before they'll be satisfied. Even Jordan is willing to let an independent Palestine flourish on the West Bank - but as long as it is riddled with Israeli settlements and checkpoints, it will not be independent. Right now the only countries happy with the status quo are Iasrael and the US.

A real Palestinian state is needed - nothing less. I'm not saying it's all up to Israel; the Palestinians themselves must also settle their differences. However, if they achieve a retrun to UN mandated borders (including the return of land siezed from Syria and Lebanon) eventually even the crazies that don't recognise Israel at all may fall into line.

[gaijinsamurai]

Well said, Budgie.
However, I would go as far as saying that not even Israel and the US, except for a right-wing minority, are really content with the status quo. Hell, even the Palestinians nemisis and the darling of the Settler movement, Ariel Sharon, recognized the fact that the occupation of the West Bank was more troublesome for Israel than the territory is worth.
All this talk about "Jordan is the Palestinian state", will do nothing to bring about stability in the Middle East, security for Israelis, and justice for Palestinians.
Sure, the Palestinians need to do more to get their acts together. But, a viable state will do a lot to lessen the influence of the fundamentalist whackos, as well as the self-serving incompentents who flourished under Arafat.
As far as the Jewish settlements go, as much as they are part of the problem, I can't foresee all of them being dismantled. I'm sure a few of them will stay, as much as I'd like to see them go. It's just something the Israelis and Palestinians will have to deal with.

[~Berdan]

Well said, Budgie.
However, I would go as far as saying that not even Israel and the US, except for a right-wing minority, are really content with the status quo. Hell, even the Palestinians nemisis and the darling of the Settler movement, Ariel Sharon, recognized the fact that the occupation of the West Bank was more troublesome for Israel than the territory is worth.
All this talk about "Jordan is the Palestinian state", will do nothing to bring about stability in the Middle East, security for Israelis, and justice for Palestinians.
Sure, the Palestinians need to do more to get their acts together. But, a viable state will do a lot to lessen the influence of the fundamentalist whackos, as well as the self-serving incompentents who flourished under Arafat.
As far as the Jewish settlements go, as much as they are part of the problem, I can't foresee all of them being dismantled. I'm sure a few of them will stay, as much as I'd like to see them go. It's just something the Israelis and Palestinians will have to deal with.

A question about the last part of your post,allready one which I asked.
How much of those settlements are illegal?Did someone bought that land?There is some authority that required the continuity of the land in west bank,and bought+registered all those land in "tabo"?


The thing is:good chunk of those "colonial illegal" settlements in Gaza which were dismantled were built on places,where human foot never stepped for a good period of time(except perhaps bedouins with their sheeps).No one bought that land,no one wanted it,no one demanded it,no one registered it.Before the jews that came and make it look like paradise,and suddenly someone got very jealous.

There are Arap cities inside Israel.I think there was a thread not so long ago how Arap citizens of Israel provoke Jewish citizens.So,if there are all-Arap cities in Israel,why not Jewish villages in Raza or west bank?


It's only fair.If Araps-Palestinians want judenrein Palestine,and somehow it is ok by standarts of many people here on that forum,so how come it's "verbotten" even to mention Israel without the Arap cities in it(which are full btw with citizens who hate their own country,and just stay there for the check).It's "racism","Aparteheed",and so on and so on and yada yada yada.

I don't see why those villages(called by PC crowd "settlements") can't stay there.As long as the factor of destorting life of Palestinian people gone(soldiers who by protecting settlers damage civil rights of Palestinians).

[gaijinsamurai]

I think you are correct, to some degree Berden. Many of those settlements (or "villages", if you'd prefer to use that term) were, in fact built on legally-purchased land. It is my belief that the inhabitants of those places should either: a) be allowed to stay where they are, whatever the outcome of negotiations, or b) be justly compensated.
Whatever happens if/when there is a final settlement (and I'm not holding my breath) to the controversy over the territories, there will undoubtedly be people who will not get what they think is due to them, and this is just too bad. Just as Palestinians from Jaffa and Haifa need to face up to the fact that they can kiss their claims to their ancestral lands goodbye, many Israelis will also need to come to terms of having a state that is not quite as big as they'd like, for the greater good.
Some settlers have actually said they will recognize the authority of a Palestinian government, as long as it respects their wishes to stay where they are and not have to relocate.

[haze99]

So far, what have the "Palestinians" produced? What viable or competant leadership is governing? (for example, a soldier is not promoted for lackluster or rebellious performance.) If the Gaza Strip is any indication of things to come, then why give them anymore land or even recognize their irresponsibility, by proclaiming them a "state". By their own actions, they have shown their total inability to govern even a simple Gyro stand.
As for Israel, far from being perfect, what would you have them do? Throw their new-born babies on an altar of fire in order to appease Hamas? Hell, they just gave back 200+ terrorists! (let's not even factor in the small arms shipments to Abbas, South Lebanon, Gaza or West Back.) Plus the other "prisoner" releases in the last decade.
Let us play pretend, if you had to choose, and if magically a Palestinian State is created, would you pack up your family and belongings and go there? Or would you choose to move to Israel?

[gaijinsamurai]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, haze99, and that's why i can't blame Israelis for being hesitant to support a Palestinian State at this time. Hamas' policy of using Gaza as a base for terrorists attacks against Israel was just about the stupidist thing they could have done.
But, the West Bank is not Gaza. Sure, they've spawned their share of terrorists and thugs as well, but culturally, they are very different, with a larger percentage of Christians and secular Muslims, and far more moderates.
Steps towards statehood will not guarantee better behavior on their part, but continued decades of the status quo will only guarantee more terrorists, with young people born into poverty, with a sense of hopelessness and nothing to lose.
I do believe that before they can be trusted to have statehood, they should prove to Israel that they really do intend on living in coexistence, and not saying one thing in English to the International Community, and another in Arabic to their own masses.

[dangerclose]

They need to get back their pre-1967 possessions, including Arab East Jerusalem before they'll be satisfied.


That's what happens when you lose wars that you start.

Why was there no clamor for a palestinian state when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip?

How come jews who were expelled from arab countries successfully integrated into Israel society but the palestinians who willingly abandoned their homes in 1948 counting on a total victory by the invading arab armies are still refugees?

[Mr. Nielsen]

Why was there no clamor for a palestinian state when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip?Because the jordanians were behaving better than the israeli occupyers?



How come jews who were expelled from arab countries successfully integrated into Israel society but the palestinians who willingly abandoned their homes in 1948 counting on a total victory by the invading arab armies are still refugees?Jews from all over the world were very enthusiastically encouraged to emigrate to Israel. Which of course was the whole idea with the state of Israel.

The palestinians on the other hand were not wanted or encouraged to move to either Jordan, Lebanon or elsewhere.

But only came there because of the systematic etnic cleansing performed by the israelis especially in 1948-50, which were facilitated by more than 200 massacres and the destruction of 4-500 villages.

[~Berdan]

Jews from all over the world were very enthusiastically encouraged to emigrate to Israel. Which of course was the whole idea with the state of Israel.

Who is the revisionist now?
Did you drink Absinthe instead of water or something?
So,let's close the deal and say Palestine Arabs were also encouraged to emigrate back to their home states.


Because the jordanians were behaving better than the israeli occupyers?

Blablablalblablabla...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Man,you are retard.

[dangerclose]

Man,you are retard.


I agree with the above statement.


Weeks before the 1948 war, arab families (they weren't called Palestinians then) were encouraged to abandon their homes and flee to the arab countries. They were assured that within a matter of weeks, they would be allowed to return and reclaim their homes - and also the homes of the massacred jews. Although the new Israeli government pleaded with them to stay and fight together for a common homeland, all but a handful crossed over into Jordan to wait for total victory against the jews. They expected to return home as soon as the hated jew was slaughtered. Instead, after the war was lost, their "brother" hosts kept them in miserable refugee camps and did nothing to help them.


</history lesson>

[gaijinsamurai]

So what if they left willingly? All over the world, refugees leave their homes in times of crisis, and are usually allowed to return once the fighting ceases. In the case of the Palestinians who fled their homes in 1948, to claim that the Israeli leaders wanted then to stay is a crock of sh*t, and is contrary to most factual evidence, including the massacre at Deir Yassin and David Ben Gurion's own statements that they should go.
Even if they did leave of their own accord, they should have been given the right to return-mind you, I'm not advocating that they be given "right of return" now-It's just simply too unrealistic to expect Palestinians and/or their descendents who left in 1948 to be able to reclaim their lands. To expect them to be given the right to return to what is now Israel is equivilant to expecting the US to give land back to the American Indians.

And to claim that Jews in Arab lands left of their own free will is just as absurd. I have Israeli friends of Morroccan and Yemenite heritage, and their families were forcibly deported from those lands, so any "zionist colonization" on their part was forced upon them by Arabs.

Mind you, all of this is history, and whether or not one believes the Arabs should have allowed Jewish colonization and the establishment of the State of Israel, is purely academic, and largely irrelavant to the discussion over the current situation. Historically, both sides have been victims as well as aggressors, and if we continue to bicker over what did or didn't happen over 50 years ago, we won't get anywhere.
The fact of the matter is that Israelis are there to stay, and any desire on the part of the Arabs to change that fact will only bring more misery upon themselves. At the same time, the belief that the "Palestinian problem" can be pushed off on the Arab countries is also denying reality, and until both sides agree that they need to face the reality of living side by side, there will continue to be bloodshed and misery.

[Hollis]

Gaijin,

My understanding is that there where several reasons.

1) Fear of the Israelis

2) Arab leaders told them too

3) the "normal" exodus when land becomes a battle field.

We can look at the Bedouin and Druze Muslim, they chose to stay.

I agree with you it is moot to argue whether or not the Israelis stood pack up or stay. They are there. The Israeli government is much more hospitable to "differences" than the PA.

Personally the war against Israel stem from two sources,

1) cold war

2) religious (or has grown into religious argument because of cold war politics).

[gaijinsamurai]

Agreed.
I was a big critic of the Israeli Government during the years of Shamir and Netenyahu, when they seemed to be trying to grab as much West Bank land as they could; but in recent years, it has been the Israelis, in my opinion, who have gone out of their way to try to accomodate the Palestinians, while the Palestinian Authority and Hamas give Israelis every reason to be skeptical.