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hist2004
08-03-2007, 09:05 AM
The GOP, Ron Paul & Non-Interventionism


Gregory Scoblete

In politics, ideas frequently spread like viruses. Even if their host succumbs, the ideas that animated them can survive to infect the body politic. Such was the certainly case with Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater. In the era of the Great Society, his limited government views were resoundingly rejected by the electorate in his 1964 presidential bid. Yet those same ideas eventually culminated in a very contagious outbreak - the Reagan revolution -16 years later.

Will there be a similar legacy for Texas congressman Ron Paul? Yes, Paul's platform differs greatly from Goldwater's and Paul is even more of a long shot than was Goldwater in winning the nomination, which was half of Goldwater's great achievement, but we know one element of the comparison is already apt: Paul will not be President of the United States. But just as Goldwater's limited government creed found a receptive public years later, one theme of Paul's campaign will, with time, also carry the day: his embrace of non-interventionism.

Though he has garnered considerable Internet enthusiasm, Paul trails in all the major polls. He does not possess the name recognition of a Giuliani, the personal wealth of a Romney or the fame and establishment enthusiasm of a Thomson. He is derided by many conservative pundits as idiosyncratic, or worse, a paranoiac.

Yet, unlike the rest of the field, Paul possess a compelling foreign policy message of humility and restraint in the exercise of U.S. power. To say that such a message is unpopular, especially with the contemporary GOP, is an understatement. But it is a message increasingly vindicated by events and by the strategic realities of the post Cold War world.

During the May 15 debate in South Carolina, Paul wondered how Republicans were able to capture the presidency in 2000. "We talked about a humble foreign policy," he said. "No nation-building; don't police the world." Paul, alone among GOP contenders, opposed the invasion of Iraq and has been a critic of the enterprise ever since.

Such restraint does not sit well with many conservatives intent on seizing what columnist Charles Krauthammer dubbed the "unipolar moment" of American ascendancy in a world without the Soviet Union. To them, only the maximalist goals espoused by President Bush in his second inaugural address are worthy of America. Neoconservative champions of an "American Empire" such as Council on Foreign Relations scholar Max Boot chafe at the notion that there are, or should be, limits to American power or that the American interest should be defined as anything less than a globe-spanning, benevolent imperium. Unfazed by our inability to pacify Iraq, neoconservatives like Norman Podhoretz (recently named as an advisor to the Giuliani campaign) are now agitating to expand the war into Iran.

Nor does Paul's parsimony sit well with Democrats and liberals, whose predilection to use military force seems to increase as the relevancy of the mission to U.S. security decreases. Supposedly aghast by the civil war in Iraq, Democratic statesmen like Delaware Senator Joseph Biden want to insert the U.S. into Sudan. If you blanched at the President's Second Inaugural, which pledged to erase tyranny from the pages of human memory, you won't find much comfort in Barack Obama's barely-less expansive formulation of America's interests in Foreign Affairs.

Against such an overwhelming tide of grandiosity and hubris, it sounds farcical to suggest that non-interventionism will some day sway voters and find eventual electoral success. But it will.

First though, it's important to distinguish non-interventionism from isolationism. The former seeks a more rigorous and delimited definition of America's interests, while the latter a walled garden that completely cuts America off from the world. Non-interventionists are not pacifists, but they do reserve war fighting for moments of actual national peril. (Paul, for instance, voted to authorize war in Afghanistan in 2001.) They do not view the military as an instrument of social policy. If war is to be fought, non-interventionists demand a Congressional declaration of war to ensure that the conflict is one in which the nation's resources are fully brought to bear.

Unlike isolationists, non-interventionists do not fear expanding and liberalizing trade (Paul has frequently said as much). Non-interventionists are confident in American strength and, unlike isolationists, are optimistic about America's engagement with the world. What they do not seek, however, is dominion over it. Non-interventionists trust that Western values are persuasive on their own terms, and become correspondingly less so when they are imposed on societies at gunpoint. Finally, non-interventionists tend to possess a truly conservative skepticism about government and the malleability of human nature. They do not believe America should squander its blood and treasure as it pursues utopian schemes like "ridding the world of evil."

The precise content of Paul's campaign platform won't be adopted, even many years down the road. With calls to withdraw from NATO and the UN, it's far too radical. Yet the contours of his non-interventionist approach to foreign policy will ultimately win the day. For starters, thank President Bush. The invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq have exposed and discredited a number of dubious theories endorsed by the war's advocates. It reminded us that the proper role of a military is to destroy states, not coax democratic ones from the rubble. Yet it also underscored that even if we were adept nation builders, an "American Empire" won't protect us. Unraveled terror plots in the U.S. and Europe discredit the notion that "freedom is the antidote to terror" or that we must "fight them over there so they don't come over here."

When the Bush administration leaves office, it also will leave a list of serious foreign policy failures. The administration will pass off a military vastly weaker than the one it inherited and larger nuclear programs in North Korea and Iran. On the singular issue of Islamic terrorism, the record is largely abysmal. President Bush inherited one jihadist safe haven in a relatively weak state, Afghanistan. He will leave office with two safe havens: one in nuclear-armed Pakistan, the other in Iraq -- in the heart of the oil-rich, increasingly unstable Middle East. Far from discredited and marginalized, our intelligence services warn that the ideology of radical Islam is enflamed. As the coup-de-grace, the administration is proposing to shower billions of dollars worth of advanced weaponry on the very Sunni autocrats responsible for whipping up the jihadist frenzy.

There will be a great incentive among politicians and policymakers to put a good deal of distance between themselves and this record. (Bush's basement level approval ratings don't help either.) But there is a deeper reason why non-interventionism will find more fertile soil years hence. America's current global commitments reflect antiquated, Cold War-era priorities that will only become more untenable as time passes.

During that conflict, we subsidized the defense of the free world to deter Soviet adventurism and to allow the battered nations of World War II to focus resources on reconstruction. We undertook an interventionist foreign policy (in Korea, South East Asia, and the Middle East) to thwart the Kremlin's ambitions.

Well, mission accomplished. Today, American military decampments in Asia and Europe reflect strategic entropy. With the Soviet Union resting comfortably on the ash heap of history, with much of the world free and democratic, there is no serious reason why the U.S. is still defending South Korea, Europe, Taiwan, Israel and the Gulf monarchies. Without exception, these nations possess the economic resources to sustain a modern military capable of meeting their unique security needs.

Paul argues for such a transfer of responsibility. With time, this chorus will grow because there is no threat to the U.S. on par with Soviet communism that necessitates the type of global posture America assumed during the Cold War. True, radical Islam is a serious global menace, but it is not one that will be beaten back with U.S. military bases and defense commitments to autocratic client-states. Indeed, many of the same policies so instrumental in containing communism - the use of proxies, reliance on pliant autocrats and an intrusive military posture - are now the very ones likely to exacerbate the current danger.

And besides, even if the U.S. does not consciously - and conscientiously - shift its policy to reflect this new reality, the retiring baby boomers will force such a change. Anyone with a passing familiarity with the federal budget and demographic trends knows that the U.S. cannot sustain both its mammoth defense budgets and its entitlements as the boomers retire en-masse. When forced to choose, it's difficult to imagine baby boomers will prefer defending billionaire Saudi fundamentalists to Medicare.

Ron Paul's rebuke of America's current Cold War posture will be vindicated, but only when the costs of America's commitments and their irrelevance to U.S. national security become clearer. Until such time, Paul, like Goldwater, will likely pass his time in Congress waiting for America's political class to catch up.

Source: (http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070803/cm_rcp/goldwater_is_to_reagan_as_ron)

Durandal
08-03-2007, 09:38 AM
Well said, especially now that we have people freaking out over bridge collapses.

The infra structure has been in need a much overhauling. We've eknown it for quite some time, but rather than reinvest, we like to help fund big name things...new projects "The Bridge To No-Where" and shoveling money into crap like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

The U.S. is living on borrowed time.

Something has got to give in terms of spending or we are going to see massive increases in taxes.

Either way, we are about to hit a wall in terms of budget strain.

Edit: The article also does not mention that the broken Federal Pension fund that has, over the years, taken on non-Federal, corporate employees, is in the crapper too. Another MASSIVE cost we will soon have to contend with.

shocker1
08-03-2007, 10:10 AM
Agreed, I like Ron Paul and his platform. I like many support our mission in Iraq but to ignore in hindsight the ignorance of the Bush administration is foolish. At this point in the game even I question what gain America has in securing a people who do not secure themselves. Bush is a globalist and no Conservative, just like his Daddy.

I like making fun of Iran and pointing out the dangers there of mixing radical Islam and government. However our present form of diplomatic policy is really nonexistent. We pour billions into the State Dept and receive very poor service. I have always thought we should call the bluffs of Mullahs and be nice in public, call for top level meeting and summits. This worked with the Soviets, we should all be thankful we talked to them. Imagine what would have happened if we never negotiated at the highest level.

Where I draw the line though is when politics damages the mission we as a nation asked our military to do. If we as a nation want to give it up, then we should elect people with the balls to do so. This will give a great victory to our enemies in the end. Any move will be exploited by every Islamic group. There is no easy way to deal with the whole situation. In this day and age isolationism will not work and anyone leading this nation will end up bowing to that IMO. Smart strategy will be key and that is precisely what we are lacking.

I know I sound duplicitous in that I like what Ron Paul says and end up disagreeing in his isolationist stance. What we want and what reality will give you are two different things. I think he would have to bend to world pressure in the end but his stand on the issues(limited government) will cause him to make better decisions, thus my support for him.

gaijinsamurai
08-03-2007, 10:50 AM
Sadly, Ron Paul is too honest to get elected.

RECON DOC
08-03-2007, 11:51 AM
Sadly, Ron Paul is too honest to get elected.

He still gets my vote.

gaijinsamurai
08-03-2007, 04:48 PM
If Hillary gets the Democratic nomination, or if Obama gets it and he doesn't backtrack from his gun control stance, he'll probably end up getting mine, too.

Durandal
08-03-2007, 06:10 PM
He still gets my vote.

X2...he gets it regardless of what the "GOP" lets corporations decide.

Techmarine1228
08-03-2007, 06:15 PM
He's got my vote.

And I've got his t-shirt! hehe

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6994/jitcrunchlf1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Bert
08-03-2007, 07:21 PM
Sadly, Ron Paul is too honest to get elected.

Even if he doesn't get elected, the more votes he gets the more attention his message is given. This can have an incredible effect. (ref. Barry Goldwater, Reagan.)

nagant_m44
08-03-2007, 08:43 PM
Even if he doesn't get elected, the more votes he gets the more attention his message is given. This can have an incredible effect. (ref. Barry Goldwater, Reagan.)

not really, most republicans think he is the "denis kucinich" of the party

Gat0r
08-03-2007, 08:45 PM
Wow that was a good read, I wasnt sure if I was going to vote at all. I would never vote for Hilary or Obama and conservatives just suck, I think this guy is my front runner! I need to learn more about him because I dont have much on him.

shocker1
08-03-2007, 09:05 PM
Wow that was a good read, I wasnt sure if I was going to vote at all. I would never vote for Hilary or Obama and conservatives just suck, I think this guy is my front runner! I need to learn more about him because I dont have much on him.
That's funny, Ron Paul's stand on the issues is conservative. The present POTUS is not a Conservative. Ron Paul is about small government, strict observance of the Constitution and Isolationisim. That is a strict Conservative view of things. It is ashame that Bush's policies are considered Conservative, they are far from it.

BloodyTalon
08-03-2007, 09:19 PM
That's funny, Ron Paul's stand on the issues is conservative. The present POTUS is not a Conservative. Ron Paul is about small government, strict observance of the Constitution and Isolationisim. That is a strict Conservative view of things. It is ashame that Bush's policies are considered Conservative, they are far from it.
And this is the only thing that's stopping me from supporting Ron Paul 100%. Don't get me wrong, invading every country that might vaguely pose a threat in to us is stupid, but not bothering to target threats to this country until they attack, and thus letting them free to become more lethal and difficult to encouter is equally as foolish in my opinion. A strong offense is a good defence.

shocker1
08-03-2007, 09:23 PM
And this is the only thing that's stopping me from supporting Ron Paul 100%. Don't get me wrong, invading every country that might vaguely pose a threat in to us is stupid, but not bothering to target threats to this country until they attack is equally as foolish in my opinion. A strong offense is a good defence.
I agree, I think this stand will cause him to better judge what actions should be taken. Isolationism will not work today and whoever gets elected will have to deal with the threats in a proactive way.

Roids
08-03-2007, 10:12 PM
He has my vote.

I am worried however a wee bit on complete non-intervention politics. For example, would have he support something to what was done in the first gulf war at least? If Europe was in dire trouble(like to the scale of WWII invasion), would he see what history has taught us in those situations?

Even with that, I agree with him on all other issues, I think it would be foolish for me not to give him the vote just for that.

Rictor
08-03-2007, 10:16 PM
And this is the only thing that's stopping me from supporting Ron Paul 100%. Don't get me wrong, invading every country that might vaguely pose a threat in to us is stupid, but not bothering to target threats to this country until they attack, and thus letting them free to become more lethal and difficult to encouter is equally as foolish in my opinion. A strong offense is a good defence.

Your nation was founded by people who thought the opposite. Sadly, a succession of Presidents and Congressmen dating back more than a century have held different views, which is why you now find yourselves with an empire that benefits you nothing and yet that you can not get rid of.

Within the context of today's political environment, Ron Paul is literally Founding Fathers material. For sheer decency, honesty and integrity, not to mention the sanity of his policies, no other Congressman is even in the same ballpark.


I am worried however a wee bit on complete non-intervention politics. For example, would have he support something to what was done in the first gulf war at least?
Using American might to protect Saudi and Kuwaiti interests? Gee, the world would fly off its axis if the poor little oil sheiks and Arab tyrants didn't have a bodyguard to cover their ass in local disputes. Not to mention that involvement in the first Gulf War, by stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, was a direct cause of the 9/11 attacks, and no less of an authority than Paul Wolfowitz has confirmed it. One interventions leads inevitably to the next, and the next, and the next.

BloodyTalon
08-03-2007, 11:35 PM
Your nation was founded by people who thought the opposite. Sadly, a succession of Presidents and Congressmen dating back more than a century have held different views, which is why you now find yourselves with an empire that benefits you nothing and yet that you can not get rid of.

Within the context of today's political environment, Ron Paul is literally Founding Fathers material. For sheer decency, honesty and integrity, not to mention the sanity of his policies, no other Congressman is even in the same ballpark.
You seem to think we consider the Founding Fathers to be gods amongst men whose every word was truth. They may have wanted for us to idealy to never be involved in the conflicts in regions other than our own, but events in history have shown that trouble from overseas will eventually appear on our doorstep, and just sitting on our arses and waiting to get hit is not a sound strategy.

Again, I am in no way an advocate of furthering the "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of this current administration, but flat-out isolationism is equally as stupid and harmful. What if, for example, the Pakistani government is overthrown by a governmet sympathetic to the causes of Al Qaeda and now has access to their nuclear stockpile. Do you honestly think its a good idea for us to sit idly by in that situation until a major US city dissappears before taking some action, diplomatic or military or otherwise?

Bert
08-03-2007, 11:54 PM
And this is the only thing that's stopping me from supporting Ron Paul 100%. Don't get me wrong, invading every country that might vaguely pose a threat in to us is stupid, but not bothering to target threats to this country until they attack, and thus letting them free to become more lethal and difficult to encouter is equally as foolish in my opinion. A strong offense is a good defence.

You can't just take the media's label 'isolationist' as a blanket term. He voted for the war in Afghanistan because there was a target, an enemy of the US, and war was declared properly. In Iraq, the reason for going in was to enforce UN resolutions regarding WMDs. The war in Iraq was undeclared, it was a de jure 'humanitarian operation' to evade Congress approval. This is why Ron Paul is against the war in Iraq. And I don't know if you've seen his proposed bills to expand the definition of piracy to include air piracy, and then using the good old letters of marque for going after individual terrorists and groups, rather than declaring war on entire countries in order to go after an asymmetric enemy.


Only tyrants can take a nation to war without the consent of the people. The planned war against Iraq without a Declaration of War is illegal.


Cliché or not, the Arab Street really doesn’t like America, so we should stop the charade about democracy and start pursuing a coherent foreign policy that serves America’s long-term interests.

And a good defense may be a good offense, but not when your offense eats away at your defense so much it becomes ridiculous.


Immigration reform should start with improving our border protection, yet it was reported last week that the federal government has approved the recruitment of 120 of our best trained Border Patrol agents to go to Iraq to train Iraqis how to better defend their borders! This comes at a time when the National Guard troops participating in Operation Jump Start are being removed from border protection duties in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas and preparing to deploy to Iraq and Afghanistan! It is an outrage and it will result in our borders being more vulnerable to illegal entry, including by terrorists.

How can one claim to be fighting terrorism abroad when all a middle eastern looking fellow needs to do to get in is to shave his beard and learn the sentence 'no habla ingles'?

Roids
08-03-2007, 11:58 PM
Using American might to protect Saudi and Kuwaiti interests? Gee, the world would fly off its axis if the poor little oil sheiks and Arab tyrants didn't have a bodyguard to cover their ass in local disputes. Not to mention that involvement in the first Gulf War, by stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, was a direct cause of the 9/11 attacks, and no less of an authority than Paul Wolfowitz has confirmed it. One interventions leads inevitably to the next, and the next, and the next.

Gee, I wish that we could think like that(really I do, it would be a lot easier). Where if we stay out of the world then nothing bad can happen to us. You act as if letting other nations conquer other nations will have no effect on us. A planet with hostile ideologies and more power on their side is not in our interests.

By that logic we should have never attacked Hitler in Europe during WWII(even if they did declare war on us). He never attacked us directly and only harmed other countries, so why the hell did we "bodyguard" the ass of Europe with economical support and later direct involvement?

Durandal
08-04-2007, 08:16 AM
You seem to think we consider the Founding Fathers to be gods amongst men whose every word was truth.

Nope just smart men who knew HOW to build the foundation for a strong government than changed hands without blood every 2 to 4 to 8 years. Men a whole lot smarter than most of the "new nobility" that's getting elected these days.


Again, I am in no way an advocate of furthering the "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of this current administration, but flat-out isolationism is equally as stupid and harmful.

You keep getting hung up on the absolute definition of isolationism as if Ron Paul would not attack, with all available resources another nation or group that attacked the United States or actively engage in defending our borders (one of the prime responsibilities of the Federal government).

BloodyTalon
08-04-2007, 01:10 PM
You keep getting hung up on the absolute definition of isolationism as if Ron Paul would not attack, with all available resources another nation or group that attacked the United States or actively engage in defending our borders (one of the prime responsibilities of the Federal government).
You didn't read my entire post. I know that Ron Paul will only use force against a nation or group if it attacks us first, and frankly that is both stupid and dangerous. Again, see my scenario about an Al-Qaeda friendly government taking Pakistan and its nukes. According to Ron Pauls idea of non-interventionalism, we would just do nothing until a US city or more gets nuked and then we would take action.

I know the Founding Fathers didn't want us to just go into any random country that even looks at us badly, but i also doubt they thought waking up in the morning to find Boston or New York destroyed was part of effectively protecting the country.

Durandal
08-04-2007, 01:34 PM
I;m sorry, you can formulate a scenario for any sort of reason.

That said, I am not too sure what your point is. If enemies of the U.S. took over Pakistan and their nukes right now we could not do anything.

Not too sure what your point is.

I think its a mistake to act based on POSSIBLE threat rather than KNOWN. I live all of my childhood under the THREAT of Communist Russia and yet, for some odd reason I am alive and we never invaded Russia.

WarriorMonk
08-04-2007, 06:53 PM
You didn't read my entire post. I know that Ron Paul will only use force against a nation or group if it attacks us first, and frankly that is both stupid and dangerous. Again, see my scenario about an Al-Qaeda friendly government taking Pakistan and its nukes. According to Ron Pauls idea of non-interventionalism, we would just do nothing until a US city or more gets nuked and then we would take action.

I know the Founding Fathers didn't want us to just go into any random country that even looks at us badly, but i also doubt they thought waking up in the morning to find Boston or New York destroyed was part of effectively protecting the country.

I think Paul would probably more likely do something if CIA Ground Branch reported that there was CREDIBLE evidence that Pakistan was ARMING its nukes and pointing them in all sorts of directions that could harm US interests...ie evidence as in: good satellite photos, authenticated videos from Ground Branch teams doing recon on a launch site, etc.

I'm sorry, but you really can't save everybody - it's hard telling that (let alone believing it) to other families who lost loved ones on 9-11, being someone whose uncle died in the Pentagon.

www.blackfootstudios.com

BloodyTalon
08-04-2007, 07:21 PM
That said, I am not too sure what your point is. If enemies of the U.S. took over Pakistan and their nukes right now we could not do anything.

We could do something; We could throw sanctions at them, like what WarriorMonk said the CIA could go in and try and get as much dirt as possible on the nukes, and if it is KNOWN that those nukes are gonna be used in the near future, we can use military action to prevent that. That's what I'm advocating; not going in immediatly and not waiting for a city to disappear first.

@ WarriorMonk: its not just the human factor that i'm worried about, its also the economic and military factor that has to be taken into account. What if, for a example, a nuke was detonated somehow in my home town of San Diego, which is home to around 4 CBGs including the USS Ronald Reagan. I don't think I need to explain the negative impact that would have if even just one CBG was stationed there.

Buckeye67
08-04-2007, 07:26 PM
Ron Paul is certainly a breath of fresh air after the last 16 years, and has my vote.

evanfitz
08-04-2007, 07:31 PM
^^ agreed

He has my vote

JaketheSnake
08-04-2007, 10:10 PM
I like Ron Paul, I really really hope he gets the office. But with Thompson leading the Presidential polls without having announced his candidacy for the job... I think that's more than foreshadowing.

Rictor
08-05-2007, 05:18 PM
God bless you Mr. Paul.

The absolute best part is Mitt Romney's interruption, reflexively stammering "B-b-b-but have you forgotten 9/11".

http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/33z84ktPfeC5OiZdm

Rictor
08-05-2007, 05:28 PM
Gee, I wish that we could think like that(really I do, it would be a lot easier). Where if we stay out of the world then nothing bad can happen to us. You act as if letting other nations conquer other nations will have no effect on us. A planet with hostile ideologies and more power on their side is not in our interests.

By that logic we should have never attacked Hitler in Europe during WWII(even if they did declare war on us). He never attacked us directly and only harmed other countries, so why the hell did we "bodyguard" the ass of Europe with economical support and later direct involvement?

If you fail to see the difference between Nazi Germany, which succeeded in conquering most of Europe within two years and showed no sign of slowing down, and one petty Arab dictator unseating another in what was simply the latest in a long line of such conflicts, I'm afraid it's useless to try to explain. Saddam invaded Kuwait because his country was effectively bankrupt, not because he was going to conquer the world.


Again, I am in no way an advocate of furthering the "shoot first, ask questions later" policy of this current administration, but flat-out isolationism is equally as stupid and harmful. What if, for example, the Pakistani government is overthrown by a governmet sympathetic to the causes of Al Qaeda and now has access to their nuclear stockpile. Do you honestly think its a good idea for us to sit idly by in that situation until a major US city dissappears before taking some action, diplomatic or military or otherwise?

I'm sorry, but you've been reading too much Tom Clancy. Unpredictable fanatics do not, ipso facto, ten to gain state power. Even if they did, do you think that the people who control the nukes are eagerly awaiting to commit national suicide?

And in case it's not abundantly clear by now, it is Musharraf's alliance with America that's giving the radicals a popular base in the first place. Pakistan has managed Islamic militants perfectly well for decades, and there's no reason to believe that the ISI or the military, to say nothing of the People's Party, the courts or the business sector would allow a wildly irresponsible Islamic government to be set up.

BloodyTalon
08-05-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm sorry, but you've been reading too much Tom Clancy. Unpredictable fanatics do not, ipso facto, ten to gain state power. Even if they did, do you think that the people who control the nukes are eagerly awaiting to commit national suicide?
So Afghanistan, Somalia, Germany, North Korea, etc. were just flukes, or do you believe Hitler, Kim Jong IL, and the members of the Taliban and the Islamic Courts were perfectly rational individuals whose idealogies were grounded in reality?

What goes on in the world is unpredictable and dangerous fanatics can acheive power under the right circumstances.

nagant_m44
08-05-2007, 09:18 PM
make sure you register as a republican so you can vote in your local primary election

Aeroflot
08-06-2007, 01:58 AM
If Ron Paul was elected to office, wouldn't that give Russia more power in the world (you know, since Ronny wants to be more non-interventionist)?

I doubt US politicians would like that.

Durandal
08-06-2007, 09:05 AM
God bless you Mr. Paul.

The absolute best part is Mitt Romney's interruption, reflexively stammering "B-b-b-but have you forgotten 9/11".

http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/33z84ktPfeC5OiZdm

The best part of the entire debate and I think the pretty much a perfect example of how out of touch with reality a lot of the other candidates are...not because they disagree or agree, but because they interrupt him with the clarion call of "9-11" which has NOTHING to do with Iraq and simply show their ignorance and desperate attempt for a sound bite.

It still gets me that people think that a pro-choice, pro-big-government, anti-gun candidate (two now) are a viable candidate for the Republican Party, especially when we KNOW no beyond a reasonable doubt that Ron Paul has cross line appeal. Youth and old, true conservative and libertarians...he is QUITE appealing and the best part...can go toe to toe against the monsters we see on the left.

WarriorMonk
08-06-2007, 09:31 AM
If Ron Paul was elected to office, wouldn't that give Russia more power in the world (you know, since Ronny wants to be more non-interventionist)?

I doubt US politicians would like that.

more excuse for a military buildup?

ElHombre
08-06-2007, 01:29 PM
It still gets me that people think that a pro-choice, pro-big-government, anti-gun candidate (two now) are a viable candidate for the Republican Party, especially when we KNOW no beyond a reasonable doubt that Ron Paul has cross line appeal.

You're forgetting the moose in the fridge. Paul is sane. The R base doesn't want their candidates to be sane. Thus, regrettably, Paul has no chance.

Decebalus
08-06-2007, 04:30 PM
Watch videos of Ron Paul pwning everybody in last night's debate. Giuliani looked really really mad and Romney tried to jump on the 9/11 wagon but instead made himself look like a fool that he is.

The only 8 minutes worth watching of the whole debate:

Ron Paul: A true patriot. Everybody else including Fred Thompson, just a corporation loyalist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyGKmqk7Khg