Polish - German row about art

[perdurabo]

i don't have idea for right title so maybe somone comes with new one.
Gazeta.pl has series of articles "answers" to FAZ article about German art colections left by them at the end of 2 world war on our new western teritories.
Germans say that those art belongs to them and should be returned.
Poland says that Germans destroyed so much of Polish national art that those coletcions should stay here as a reparations for our destoryed ones.
Only Poland and Russia rejects to return of art (Poland to Germans only and Russia to all Poland and Germany including) but on the other hand Germans agreed to return to Poland only those art colections that Poles will find in Germany (if we don't find them they won't return them).

In one discusion beatwin Polish and German jurnalist i found proposal to place those colections in new museum in Wrocław (for Germans Breslau) as it is close to German borders, has long Polish-German (and Czech)history.

I'm curious what our German forumites think about it? And others?
Guys please try to be civilized and try not to start flame war.

[signatory]

I'm curious what our German forumites think about it? And others?
Guys please try to be civilized and try not to start flame war.

If the rightful owners ask for the art then it should be returned.. but it would be appropriate for them to deliver replicas.. because it's not really the money value of the arts it's all about no?

[Kampfbaer]

Well` usually I don´t care much about art, but in this case I´d like two see two galleries, one in Poland and one in Germany, those galleries should show the disputed artworks in an alternating fashion and could be used to show off the works of young artists from both countries.

As afar as I`m concerned, Russia could well take part if it wants to.

[Vandervahn]

Interesting, I happened to read the FAZ ("Frankfurt Standard Newspaper") articles. While Russia has also been very reluctant to give back cultural goods, Poland has also been blocking even negotiations lately. It has to be said that Germany has had good cooperations with every other war party on this matter.

There are two contrary opinions at work in this case. Germans argue with the Hague Conventions, which are quite clear on the matter: the cultural goods ARE german property and have to be restituated regardless of the circumstances. Poles however, in the words of a polish expert, see these goods as "hostages", both for the destroyed polish artwork as well as the bits and pieces of polish goods still on german territory.

Problem only is that Germany has already given back a majority of significant works without much ado, both in person and also by decree of the allied powers shortly after the war. That means that the bits that are left are mostly in private property, and thus it also may be difficult to find and identify them - not only because of malicious hiding by the german "owners", but mostly simply because of lack of knowledge of origin of these cultural goods.

As was said, many of the significant pieces that still exist are already back in Poland. Now the Poles however block a restituation of even the most obvious german goods since they demand something in return - they claim they can´t give that stuff back while getting only little of what is left. Basically, this is a dead end - there is nothing Polish left of that much value as the lost german goods Poland (including for example the original manuscript of the german anthem).

There is no doubt that Nazi Germany broke law on culture in horrendous ways, robbed and destroyed polish culture in the course of the war or the de-"slavication" process. But that is of little relevance in this case, as was the polish war victims in the recent talks about EU voting. Still, the polish "an eye for an eye" opinion contradicts international law, european diplomacy and basic morality. Since Poland has no reparation claims against Germany any longer, they may use the lost art as leverage to either get back their goods (most of which they already have), or to banter for another, possibly fiscal, compensation.

The Polish stance on the matter of Germany, Germans and their rightful claims in Poland is very obvious: recently, Kaczynski ordered his judges to rule in favor of Poland whenever a german-polish conflict is in court. Naturally, the judges protested - but one can see the difficulty quite clearly. You´re german? Then forget any decent and level-headed discussions with polish officials. For Germany it is easier to negotiate with Iran or North Korea than with Poland.

[Invisigoth]

Its [just] paintings for christ's sake. Compensate the owners and share them as a travel exhibit between Germany and Poland, problem solved. Our governments need to stop their circle jerks and concentrate on overcoming the on-going issues between our countries, rather than amplify them through largely irrelevant stuff like this.

[Navor]

The Problem I see is that if the dispute is a long than those paintings should be equally shared and once shown in Poland and in Germany.Something like a 50:50 Solution under friends. But if this whole situation is forced by your dump twins than my words would be so rude towards the intiators and right wing poles (so not all poles at all ;)that I may would risk an infraction for them

[Nightsky]

For Germany it is easier to negotiate with Iran or North Korea than with Poland.

Quoted for truth

[ZhukovG]

Quoted for truth

I agree with the new Polish goverment they are taking a position of VICTIM of everything

[daily666]

The Polish stance on the matter of Germany, Germans and their rightful claims in Poland is very obvious: recently, Kaczynski ordered his judges to rule in favor of Poland whenever a german-polish conflict is in court. Naturally, the judges protested - but one can see the difficulty quite clearly. You´re german? Then forget any decent and level-headed discussions with polish officials. For Germany it is easier to negotiate with Iran or North Korea than with Poland.

I happen to be a lawyer and although I'm a staunch opponent of the Kaczynskis, the above statement is a bullcrap. PM or President cannot "order" anything when comes to judgements. Lately there's been some loud rulings about Germans' rights to real estates (who were written in "Grundbuche" as owners) and eventhough it's very against the Polish occupants interest, the law is law.

It's still democracy for Christ's sake and we have separation of powers (Executive, the Legislative, and the Judicial), unlike Russia, ZhukovG.

[Kitsune]

I'm curious what our German forumites think about it?
I must say that I am rather indifferent as far as this particular quarrel with Poland is concerned. And as far as Poland is concerned I am getting more indifferent with every quarrel.

[Marmot1]

The Problem I see is that if the dispute is a long than those paintings should be equally shared and once shown in Poland and in Germany.Something like a 50:50 Solution under friends. But if this whole situation is forced by your dump twins than my words would be so rude towards the intiators and right wing poles (so not all poles at all ;)that I may would risk an infraction for them

The problem is that some of those "artworks" are in fact of disputed ownership.

I.e. Germans want to get back collection of aircrafts that were captured in 1945 in Poznan. Indeed some of them are WWI German aircrafts but there are also some WW2 aircrafts like PZL P-11c - polish fighter which was captured in by Germans 1939. Should we give it back to Germany? There are also aircrafts that were captured by Poles from retreating Germans at end of WWI and used in POLISH-SOVIET war in 1920 and later in Polish AF, are they German or Polish?

Also situation is similar with some archives. According to international law archives are bound with territory (i.e. local archives, social census, birth certificates etc.) Nevertheless there are demands to give those archives to Germany in some instances. Problem is that they are German archives but this territory is now part of Poland.

Also some of those artworks were in fact stolen form Poland during partition in XVIII and XIX century.

Problem is very complex. We have lost a lot of cultural heritage pieces during WW2, WW1 and during partition of Poland in XIX century. A lot of artwork pieces were stolen by Germans then stolen by Russians who refuse to give it back, claiming that they are war trophy captured on... Germans. Not to mention that some artwork i.e. from Saxony connected with Saxony Royal court is also connected with Polish kings from Saxon line... We claim it as part of our heritage, and Germans claim it as part of their...
Also there is problem that a lot of polish stuff was destroyed during “Kulturkampf” in XIX century and as an effect of WW2 occupation. So we claim that those German artworks are compensation for what we have lost permanently.

Anyway, most of polish stolen artwork is still in Russia and former Soviet Union countries. So my proposition is:

Germans will buy back or retrieve in any other way p-)polish artwork from Russians, and then we will exchange it with them for their artwork:).

[Musashi]

Germans will buy back or retrieve in any other way p-)polish artwork from Russians, and then we will exchange it with them for their artwork:).
I would be a great supporter of such a solution. Even a man with Polish and German roots proposed it.
I'd call the operation "Die Endlösung der Kunstwerkefrage" (The final solution of the artwork question) and it would be the first successfull Endlösung in Polish-German relations. I suppose I'd be a good diplomat p-)

[Vandervahn]

I happen to be a lawyer and although I'm a staunch opponent of the Kaczynskis, the above statement is a bullcrap. PM or President cannot "order" anything when comes to judgements. ...

I KNOW that he cannot do it according to his position in the order of the state. I also said the judges were resisting. Still he DID say:


..."It is clear that the courts' responsibility is to act in line with Poland's national interest," ...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2708282,00.html...which in my understanding is an indirect but very clear attempt at influencing the neutrality of the court. So stick your "bullcrap" comment elsewhere.


...
Anyway, most of polish stolen artwork is still in Russia and former Soviet Union countries. So my proposition is:

Germans will buy back or retrieve in any other way p-)polish artwork from Russians, and then we will exchange it with them for their artwork:).

And that would bring us back to the basic conflict: "eye for an eye" as you propose, or to give back foreign national goods in accordance to international law, which is indifferent of the circumstances.


Its [just] paintings for christ's sake. Compensate the owners and share them as a travel exhibit between Germany and Poland, problem solved. Our governments need to stop their circle jerks and concentrate on overcoming the on-going issues between our countries, rather than amplify them through largely irrelevant stuff like this.

It´s not "just paintings". Among the disputed goods are handwritings of Goethe, original notes by Beethoven, Bach and Wagner or almost the whole Prussian national archive. But irrespective of what items exactly we are speaking of, these goods are essential parts of german cultural heritage - and culture is what essential basis of the german nationality nowadays, not race or ethnicity.

Imagine if there was only one german federal flag, and that single flag was rotting away somewhere in a foreign country for which it has little to no relevance. It would be the same situation.

[daily666]

I KNOW that he cannot do it according to his position in the order of the state. I also said the judges were resisting. Still he DID say:

...which in my understanding is an indirect but very clear attempt at influencing the neutrality of the court. So stick your "bullcrap" comment elsewhere.


It's widely known that he has none or little knowledge of law and justice (although his party is called that way). He's been trying to bully courts for a long time but since than, his party and he himself lost almost 100% of court battles in constitutional tribunal and several other courts of law. So I wouldn't worry as much as your press sees it, however IMHO they exagerate too much. Sorry about the bullcrap comment.

[Switek]

I KNOW that he cannot do it according to his position in the order of the state. I also said the judges were resisting. Still he DID say:


..."It is clear that the courts' responsibility is to act in line with Poland's national interest," ...

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...708282,00.html

...which in my understanding is an indirect but very clear attempt at influencing the neutrality of the court. So stick your "bullcrap" comment elsewhere.

Seems that some of you are brianwashed... If your source is reliable should inform you that our PM was condemned for those words by National Judiciary Council. So shut up and think twice before you post something stupid offensive like the crap above.

[Indiana Jones]

Gentlemen, let us not degenerate this discussion into a verbal brawl. Switek, I believe Vandervahn is well aware that the rule of law is observed in Poland. There is no need for adjectives such as "brainwashed". It quite simply is in fact a legitimate matter of concern that any (de facto) head of state would attempt to influence a courts decision in such an overt manner. It is comforting to see however and a document to the maturity of the Polish democracy that he did not suceed in the least.
I share Vandervahns opinion that the German artwork should be returned without financial recompensations. I am of the conviction that tit-for-tat thinking should not be applied to anybodies cultural heritage, whatever amount of bad blood there might have at one point.

[Switek]

Ok. I exagerrated (a little) ;). But I have no clue what has in common stupidity of our Kaczynski twins with a point of this thread?

I really wish to solve all claims and problems after WW2 but in terms of equality. I don't see any German claims about their artwork "stolen" by France or Russia, for example...

[perdurabo]

Ok. I exagerrated (a little) ;). But I have no clue what has in common stupidity of our Kaczynski twins with a point of this thread?

I really wish to solve all claims and problems after WW2 but in terms of equality. I don't see any German claims about their artwork "stolen" by France or Russia, for example...
AFAIK france and others that had captured their art heritage already gave them back only Poland and Russia refuses to do so.

I realy like the idea of traveling museum with 50/50 shares (as a resompensation of nazi desotroy of our heritage) also we could build museum on some border city like Zgorzelec/Goerlitz with two buildings on each side of river/border showing both history and present day art, that would be good solution in EU spirit. We could also form coalition "aginst" Russia to retrive heritage of both nations that still lays in Russian museums. ..
BTW try to keep it civilized :)

[0rphie]

AFAIK france and others that had captured their art heritage already gave them back only Poland and Russia refuses to do so.

I realy like the idea of traveling museum with 50/50 shares (as a resompensation of nazi desotroy of our heritage) also we could build museum on some border city like Zgorzelec/Goerlitz with two buildings on each side of river/border showing both history and present day art, that would be good solution in EU spirit. We could also form coalition "aginst" Russia to retrive heritage of both nations that still lays in Russian museums. ..
BTW try to keep it civilized :)

Funnily, Poland is using its conflict with Germany to p!ss 0ff Russia. Maybe it is time to look in the morrow?

[Marmot1]

Funnily, Poland is using its conflict with Germany to p!ss 0ff Russia. Maybe it is time to look in the morrow?


We say in Poland that every excuse to start a party is good, if you can have some fun... and there is no better fun that pissing off "ruskich" p-)

And seriously.... We do not have conflict with germany, they have some problem with us.... and since we have similar with russians, and both problems are similar, and our problem was caused by germans (well at least they taught me that they started WW2) then we can make a deal... they will extract some of our polish artwork from russians (i.e. by licking Putin ass -> germans have experience in it) and we will give them in return some of their artwork. p-)

P.S. We can have a deal, we are looking for:

- 2 naked swords gifted by Grand Master of Teutonic Order to our King in 1410 before battle of Tannenberg.
- 49 Teutonic Banners captured few hour later in the same battle.
- our coronation sword "Szczerbiec"
- some of our kings' crowns.....

in exchane for let's say... orginal manuscript of german anthem and some other stuff.

[seer]

We say in Poland that every excuse to start a party is good, if you can have some fun... and there is no better fun that pissing off "ruskich" p-)

And seriously.... We do not have conflict with germany, they have some problem with us.... and since we have similar with russians, and both problems are similar, and our problem was caused by germans (well at least they taught me that they started WW2) then we can make a deal... they will extract some of our polish artwork from russians (i.e. by licking Putin ass -> germans have experience in it) and we will give them in return some of their artwork. p-)

P.S. We can have a deal, we are looking for:

- 2 naked swords gifted by Grand Master of Teutonic Order to our King in 1410 before battle of Tannenberg.
- 49 Teutonic Banners captured few hour later in the same battle.
- our coronation sword "Szczerbiec"
- some of our kings' crowns.....

in exchane for let's say... orginal manuscript of german anthem and some other stuff.

Kwasniewski already gave the anthem back.

[Marmot1]

damn.... to late... Did we receive anything in return?

[Freibier]

damn.... to late... Did we receive anything in return?
A safe western border p-)

[Switek]

A safe western border p-)

roflroflrofl

If you say so... ;)

[polish_combat]

Maybe they will come for "their art"! 1 of September is going closer, and closer...!! I start right now preparing my own "festung" becouse I still have a hause on their "old western lands" and when they will come for art (at 5 or 6 am) maybe they want to took back also some old territories which are now in Poland. hehehe

[Indiana Jones]

The Russian government almost categorically refuses to return stolen German artwork, which is somewhat of a sore point in Russo-German relationships; they point to the systematic campaign of theft and destruction carried out against Russian cultural heritage during the Nazi occupation and consider the items in question as "spoils of war" and "compensation" for their losses. The amplitude and value of said items and artworks is almost impossible to establish, "the treasure of Priamos" being just one prominent example. A close (German) acquaintance of mine who specialises in medieavistics and slavistics recently superficially sifted through the inventory of the Russian state library (former Lenin-library) in Moscow and found considerable amounts of manuscripts of German, Lithuanian and Polish provenience whose monetary, cultural and scientific value is substantial. Sadly, they are being poorly preserved by Western standards.

Maybe they will come for "their art"! 1 of September is going closer, and closer...!! I start right now preparing my own "festung" becouse I still have a hause on their "old western lands" and when they will come for art (at 5 or 6 am) maybe they want to took back also some old territories which are now in Poland. hehehe
Firstly: Wake up and smell the coffee...its the bloody 21st century !
Secondly: Last time the Germans came at 4,45 am. You do not want to miss the festivities.

[seer]

damn.... to late... Did we receive anything in return?
the baltic gas pipe.

[polish_combat]

Firstly: Wake up and smell the coffee...its the bloody 21st century !
Secondly: Last time the Germans came at 4,45 am. You do not want to miss the festivities.
I konw that was at 4:45 am, and I remember Wieluń. But for 21 century agressive people who talk about "stolen art & Erika Steinbach team" that time could be unattainable! :backhand:

[Musashi]

You have an interesting article in Polish about German artworks in the USA, France, Russia, etc.
According to it Germans press just Poland about returning these artworks, while they don't press for example France, the USA or Russia.
Poles did not steal these artworks from Germany, simply they have been found in Poland. Contrary to that situation the French robbed a few German museums AFTER WWII and you can find many German paintings in Louvre. When Polish journalists asked directors of German museums, why don't they demand to return these artworks from France, they replied they "don't want to do it, because they don't want to put Franco-German friendship in jeopardy" and they consider these artworks "lost". Sounds like Putin's diplomacy :)
Ze article (warning - it's in Polish):
http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/gazeta/wydanie_070807/swiat/swiat_a_3.html

Sorry dear Germans, but Wir verstehen euch nicht (http://youtube.com/watch?v=F_Oxtn000L8) (We don't understand you)

[Indiana Jones]

I konw that was at 4:45 am, and I remember Wieluń. But for 21 century agressive people who talk about "stolen art & Erika Steinbach team" that time could be unattainable! :backhand:
I do not really understand what you are trying to say ? Are you insinuating that the German desire to recover their lost artwork is somehow shady or anachronistic in character, or constitutes an aggressive move towards Poland ? Is it incomprehensible to you that the Germans are trying to reattain their cultural heritage ?

[...]- 2 naked swords gifted by Grand Master of Teutonic Order to our King in 1410 before battle of Tannenberg.
- 49 Teutonic Banners captured few hour later in the same battle.
- our coronation sword "Szczerbiec"
- some of our kings' crowns.....[...]

?
Szczerbiec resides in Cracow. The remainder of the royal Polish regalia was lost or destroyed during the late 18th and early 19th century. None of the mentioned items is within the reach of the German government.

Edit:
According to it Germans press just Poland about returning these artworks, while they don't press for example France, the USA or Russia.
Poles did not steal these artworks from Germany, simply they have been found in Poland.
That is a veritable euphemism, don´t you think? The artworks in question did not magically appear on Polish territory. Their original owners were expelled and/or their property was confiscated. As to whether only Poland is concerned in this regard, I have pointed out earlier, that the Germans do "press" the Russians to return their items- with varying degrees of success.

[vanquisher]

Its [just] paintings for christ's sake. Compensate the owners and share them as a travel exhibit between Germany and Poland, problem solved. Our governments need to stop their circle jerks and concentrate on overcoming the on-going issues between our countries, rather than amplify them through largely irrelevant stuff like this.

Exactly. Our duty to our countries is to overcome the past and improve relations. This is the only thing worth fighting for.

[shadowsrider]

Interesting article.
According to Spiegel German Ministery of Foreign Affairs uses double standards: one for Poland, another for France and USA.
French and Americans taken some masterpieces from their occupation zones. Germany do no try to get them back to not sacrifice the friendship.
The other case is with Poland which receives hard talk.
There was also a try at the Swedish court to prove that Poles have German pieces illegally but the court concluded that possesion is in line with international law.
The law at the one hand but we need gestures of good will and propably Poland will show them. Still Germany have 114 art pieces that were proven they should be given back to Poland.
This hard language of German ministry is not proper having in mind that Poland lost 500.000 art pieces including Raphael, Cranach, Breugel and Rubens.