what happens when a warrior takes an Rpg in the side

[martinexsquaddie]

answer nothing at all
my brother was showing me some photos of the effect of an rpg hit on a warrior and thers bugger all effect crew could'nt even find the impact point :lol:
so notice to all iraqis attacking warriors bad idea crewed buy very bored squaddies with a chain gun :lol:

[Piotrek]

:cantbeli:

because warhead didnt explode...so they were just lucky !!

[oldsoak]

:cantbeli:

because warhead didnt explode...so they were just lucky !!

Not necessarily so. The Warriors have been up- armoured externally with Chobham armour which will keep out RPG's.

[Piotrek]

Not necessarily so. The Warriors have been up- armoured externally with Chobham armour which will keep out RPG's.

Ok but martinexsquaddie have said that crew couldnt even figure out where they were hit so probably the warhead didnt explode - if You guys will look at the photos from Iraq You will see that most of those RPG grenades are in rather bad condition. There were alot of cases when those grenades didnt explode so I would say that this was the case.

Beside I think that RPG can by dangerous for APC even when addional armour patches are attached ( hits from above and from behind etc. )

[Scottie]

So why dont they equipt all humvees/vehicles with Chobham armour??

[scm77]

Possibly too heavy for the Humvees. I'm guessing you need alot of it.

[oldsoak]

Possibly too heavy for the Humvees. I'm guessing you need alot of it.

Unfortunately true. Its good gear, but not light.

[martinexsquaddie]

quote from crew it was a big **** off bang and a flash
so the main charge did go off. but they are very heavily armoured

[Roger Rabbit]

Any chance you could get some pictures for us all?

Well done to your brother.

[koster]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Iraqis use PG-7/V's in their RPG-7's ?
Those things can penetrate something like 260-300mm of RHA ;).

[martinexsquaddie]

I'll try and get him to put up some photo's

[Spooky]

I think the Iraqis will probably use whatever they can get their hands on but the PG-7/V will cook just about anything. I think it's more possible that they got hit with an inferior RPG or a improvised explosive device that they mistook for an RPG.

[Caribou Kid]

Glad to hear you brother was unscathed, dude. That's the important thing. Now he can call himself a seasoned veteran when you get on the piss with him on memorial day! :)

Ah, Chobham. Beautiful one day, perfect the next..... (the armour, that is, not the County in England) :lol:

[ronin2172]

I think the Iraqis will probably use whatever they can get their hands on but the PG-7/V will cook just about anything. I think it's more possible that they got hit with an inferior RPG or a improvised explosive device that they mistook for an RPG.

u do realise that chobham armor is the type used on MBTs such as the M1, Challenger series, and the Leopard 2? U do know it was designed to stop main tank rounds and ATGWs more powerful than any RPG? Unless the RPG hits those tanks in the rear or the top the likelehood of them getting penetrated is slim. So it is entirely probable that a hit on the chobham armor panel was totally ineffective despite the type of PG warhead.

[Ian H]

Warrior Chobham armour attachments:
http://www.photos.mod.uk/lowres/45142/45142752.jpg
http://www.photos.mod.uk/lowres/45142/45142793.jpg

Notice the different length of the two side slabs, and the front piece on the driver's side only. Where the armour isn't, the engine is. (Except the turret of course.)

Without attachments (for comparison):
http://www.photos.mod.uk/lowres/45140/45140655.jpg
http://www.photos.mod.uk/lowres/45114/45114005.jpg

[Spooky]

I was under the impression the coverage of this armor was pretty slight. Though I guess I never considered that they could have just fired and hit one of the armor plates!

I admittedly know nothing about chobham, but there have been threads posted here previously about Abrams taking hits from RPGs and suffering critical damage as a result. I assumed that the armor on an APC wouldn't be as effective. Learn something new everyday!

EDIT: Nevermind, I did know what Chobham armor was:

"To date, only 5-10 Chobham protected tanks have been defeated in combat, including an M1 that was hit by an RPG-7 in the second Iraqi War."

I guess I failed to think about the fact that it might have hit the turret...Still, when the warrior equips Chobham does it use the extra tungstun/DU shielding? I would think that'd be too much weight.

[agcsy]

Even if the round didnt defeat the armor there would still be some scoring from the blast.

[Spooky]

My thoughts exactly. When you get hit with an RPG-7 - Chobham or no Chobham - you know it. Also I wouldn't say APC Chobham will stop an RPG round everytime. You say that Chobham armor will stop "main battle tank rounds" but the fact of the matter is that it'll stop HEAT or sabot rounds but only when reinforced with DU (like on the Abrams), RHA and conventional steel plates.

Chances are the Chobham will stop it but I don't think that the APC will be carrying Chobham over very much of its surface and I doubt it will be properly reinforced like on main battle tanks. Granted, I don't know.

[MEGR]

What's a warrior?

[Roger Rabbit]

Turret cage. protects crew when turret turns
- LAW Light Anti-Armour Weapon
- 94mm
- Range 500m
- Boiling vessel for heating water and rations

- GPMG General Perpose Machine gun
- Calibre 7.62mm
- Range 1100m
- Rate of Fire 750 per minute

- SA80 Rifle calibre 5.56mm

- Mortor hatch


- Breech for Rarden cannon
- Calibre 30mm


- Commanders service box
- Controls all electrical equipment in the turret


- Peri 30
- Commanders periscope
- Enables turret crew to look round 360


- Gunners sight
- He can engage targets with both 30mm Rarden and machinegun


- Vehicle radio
- Can communicate 25km


- Commanders seat


- Gunners seat


- Rarden cannon
- Calibre 30mm
- Range 1500m


- Running Gear
- Tracks
- Gas-suspension
- Excellent cross-country performance


- Engine
- Rolls Royce CV8 turbo charged Diesel



Warrior

The Warrior Infantry Fighting Vehicle has the speed and performance to keep up with Challenger 2 Main Battle Tanks over the most difficult terrain, and the firepower and armour to support infantry in the assault.

A highly successful armoured fighting vehicle, Warrior can be fitted with Enhanced Armour and is continuously updated; for example, the Battle Group Thermal Imager (BGTI) is being fitted to increase its night-fighting capability.

Warrior infantry command and section vehicles carry a turret-mounted 30mm Rarden Cannon that will defeat light-armoured vehicles at a range of up to 1,500m. An 8x magnification image-intensifying night sight is fitted, and eight 94mm Light Anti-Armour Weapons (LAW) can be stowed in the vehicle.

Warrior variants include artillery Observation Post Vehicles (OPV) and Command Post Vehicles (CPV), along with a Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) recovery and repair vehicle. All variants are equipped with 7.62mm chain gun.

Crew 3

Passengers can carry up to 7 troops

Weight 24,000 kg

Width 3.034m

Length 6.34m

Height to turret top 2.791m

Ground clearance 0.49m

Maximum Range 660 km

Maximum Speed 75 kph

Engine Rolls-Royce CV8 diesel

Main armament 1x 30mm L21 Rarden Cannon

Secondary armament 7.62mm Co-axial chain gun and smoke dischargers




http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/av/av_war.htm

[MEGR]

Oh. That's a warrior.

[Ian H]

pics on page 1.
(go me)

Anyone have any word on the turret upgrade planned?

[MEGR]

The warrior kind of looks like the Bradely? Were they based on one another?

[oldsoak]

No- they were designed independant of each other, although they both set out with the idea of doing roughly the same thing. I'm told that he inspiration for both lay with the appearance of the Russian BMP.

[GazB]

The earliest designs of the Bradley has a single man turret like the BMP-1. This was changed to the current two man configuration after the BMP-2 appeared and the implications discussed. (with a single man turret with the gunner in the turret the commander is positioned in the hull and does not ahve a good view of the battlefield. With a two man turret the commander has a much better view and access to better optics etc.

The Warrior does not have an integral ATGM like the Bradley, but then AIFVs have proven they have no business taking on MBTs. (Imagine a Bradley stopping to fire a just supersonic TOW at a T-64 that is 3km away, with the T-64 returning fire with a 125mm APFSDS round at 5 times the speed of sound...)

I have heard that the Warrior withstood a hit from a Challanger during DS, but it was only a HESH round that hit addon Spaced armour. HESH is useless against spaced armour so it said more about the performance of Challanger ammo than Warrior armour.

[Royal]

My thoughts exactly. When you get hit with an RPG-7 - Chobham or no Chobham - you know it. Also I wouldn't say APC Chobham will stop an RPG round everytime. You say that Chobham armor will stop "main battle tank rounds" but the fact of the matter is that it'll stop HEAT or sabot rounds but only when reinforced with DU (like on the Abrams), RHA and conventional steel plates.

Chances are the Chobham will stop it but I don't think that the APC will be carrying Chobham over very much of its surface and I doubt it will be properly reinforced like on main battle tanks. Granted, I don't know.

A warrior (FV510) was hit by an APFDS round from a Ch1 on Op Granby. There was some damage to 2 of the Chobham plates and minor injuries to the dismounts...

The Warrior does not have an integral ATGM like the Bradley, but then AIFVs have proven they have no business taking on MBTs. (Imagine a Bradley stopping to fire a just supersonic TOW at a T-64 that is 3km away, with the T-64 returning fire with a 125mm APFSDS round at 5 times the speed of sound...)

I have heard that the Warrior withstood a hit from a Challanger during DS, but it was only a HESH round that hit addon Spaced armour. HESH is useless against spaced armour so it said more about the performance of Challanger ammo than Warrior armour.

1. Desert Warrior carries the Bradley turret, so it does have an integral ATGM capability.

2. Balls - see my comments above (BTW Chobham is not 'add on spaced armour')

[Ian H]

1. Desert Warrior carries the Bradley turret, so it does have an integral ATGM capability.


Do any of the British Army's? I've heard vague rumours about some being fitted with MILAN, but can't find any details.

[GazB]

1. Desert Warrior carries the Bradley turret, so it does have an integral ATGM capability.


Desert warfare is not the same as the expected war in Europe, the addition of Ti sights and long range ATGMs makes sense in the flat open terrain where the allied forces liked to engage targets that couldn't even see them let alone fire back.

I was talking about the Warrior, not any variants.

2. Balls - see my comments above (BTW Chobham is not 'add on spaced armour')

Externally mounted added armour will act like spaced armour, whether it has a cavity in it or not. HESH works by sending a shockwave through homogenous armour to scab off material inside the vehicle. The empty space between the back of the addon armour and the vehicles actual armour makes it completely ineffective. Anti Spalling linings also reduce the effectiveness of such an antiquated round that no one else seem to bother with.

Do any of the British Army's? I've heard vague rumours about some being fitted with MILAN, but can't find any details.

Probably a bit too short ranged... at 2km you don't want to stop to fire an ATGM at a real tank. It would have the advantage of being a bit more dismountable than a heavier weapon like TOW. The AT-4/-5 launcher on the BMP-2 and upgraded BMP-1s was designed to be dismountable for use by troops, but the extra range of the AT-5 would make it more useful even if it couldn't penetrate as much armour as the Milan.

[Royal]

Externally mounted added armour will act like spaced armour, whether it has a cavity in it or not. HESH works by sending a shockwave through homogenous armour to scab off material inside the vehicle. The empty space between the back of the addon armour and the vehicles actual armour makes it completely ineffective. Anti Spalling linings also reduce the effectiveness of such an antiquated round that no one else seem to bother with.

RTFQ, or words to that effect. We're not talking about HESH - we're talking about APFDS.

[GazB]

RTFQ, or words to that effect. We're not talking about HESH - we're talking about APFDS.

I WAS TALKING ABOUT HESH. If you say "balls" to someone at least have the manners to read what they wrote.

I mentioned an incident during Desert Storm involving HESH ammo. I realise someone else was discussing another incident regarding APDS rounds... the fact that you confused the two is your problem, not mine. I read this thread properly... perhaps you should too.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Well my tank uses an integrated fruit box and pillow system, so far I haven't tested it against any toilet roll assualts.

[Royal]

RTFQ, or words to that effect. We're not talking about HESH - we're talking about APFDS.

I WAS TALKING ABOUT HESH. If you say "balls" to someone at least have the manners to read what they wrote.

I mentioned an incident during Desert Storm involving HESH ammo. I realise someone else was discussing another incident regarding APDS rounds... the fact that you confused the two is your problem, not mine. I read this thread properly... perhaps you should too.

And if you read my first post, you'll discover that I was correcting your eronious statement that HESH was used in the blue on blue you mentioned.

[martinexsquaddie]

the initial thinking behind warrior was to make it as armoured as possible to deliver the infantry assualt team later on it got the turret and weapons.
though fortunalty its now got the add on armour.
Mooched around a BMP actually kind of crap very little room not much armour and the weapon ports good way to waste ammo. The bradley started out with those Did'nt last long did they :roll:

[GazB]

And if you read my first post, you'll discover that I was correcting your eronious statement that HESH was used in the blue on blue you mentioned.

Then it would have been clearer if you had stated that HESH wasn't used in a blue on Blue incident during Desert Storm... wouldn't it?

Can you give me a reason to believe you over my source (and memory) or do I just have to take your word for it?

The bradley started out with those Did'nt last long did they

The firing ports on the Bradley didn't last long because it gained addon armour to weigh the same as a WWII medium tank (30 plus tons).

[snake]

I guess what I don't get is that you can defeat RPG's with normal Wire Fencing so that the Grenade explodes before it hit the target

They used it 20 - 30 years ago

Anyone know why they don't

Snake

[Royal]

I guess what I don't get is that you can defeat RPG's with normal Wire Fencing so that the Grenade explodes before it hit the target

They used it 20 - 30 years ago

Anyone know why they don't

Snake

Double impact fuses. Wire would only detonate the first.

[Ian H]

Also RPG's aren't the heaviest weapons out there, and with reference to the Warrior, it was designed to fight in Europe, so needed protection against later Soviet ATGM's than the (by then obsolescent) RPG-7.

[Haiw]

I guess what I don't get is that you can defeat RPG's with normal Wire Fencing so that the Grenade explodes before it hit the target

They used it 20 - 30 years ago

Anyone know why they don't

Snake

Double impact fuses. Wire would only detonate the first.
Would it be stupid to think you could just add another wire cage on top of the other one? :D

[Roger Rabbit]

^I thought that but then i thought maybe the initial blast would destroy both wire cages and more to the point you can only put on so much wire before the vehicle gets too bulky and starts to have trouble getting down streets etc etc.

[GazB]

Ummm, actually the wire link fence defence doesn't work by detonating the warhead away from the armour. It works by defeating the piezio electric fuse in the early RPG rounds. In other words it duds them.

The piezio effect is where a material is crushed it generates an electric current... this was used to detonate the primary charge at the rear of the warhead. If the side of the warhead is damaged, by a wire of tube frame it short circuits the fuse and it wont fire.

Such frame armour is currently usd on the firesupport vehicle called BTR-T (based on the T-72) and various upgrades for Russian and Soviet armour for light but effective rear and side protection.

It works most of the time but sometimes the rpg round hits the frame directly and then it just acts as standoff armour.

[Chris196]

So why dont they equipt all humvees/vehicles with Chobham armour??

Because then it wouldnt be a utility vehicle it'd be a FRICKIN TANK....

[biscuits]

I guess what I don't get is that you can defeat RPG's with normal Wire Fencing so that the Grenade explodes before it hit the target

They used it 20 - 30 years ago

Anyone know why they don't

Snake

I think the Israelis use some sort of mesh on their Zelda/M113 APCs for this purpose.