Journalists and photographers [Archive]

gilgoul

05-10-2004, 11:50 AM

Argyll

05-10-2004, 11:55 AM

All of us, users of militaryphotos.net, seem to be great consumers of news, photos, articles about our respective forces in diferent operational theatre.
In the same time, I noticed a certain agressivity toward journalists and photographers/cameramen from law enforcement and militaries.
I heard often the comment,"they are vultures", like parasites, etc..
What do you think could be done to improve relations between media, especially image reporters, and the military.
Second, what would be according to you the perfect photographer attitude when it comes to relation with military personels in covering conflicts?

Ones who don't suddenly appear from nowhere after an incident spring to mind,these guys are getting tipped of and in some extreme case have orginised attacks to suit their stories.

No real abswer to this one ,as the Hawks will say....shoot the Bas*ards,and the doves will say,they're only doing their job.

mustamato

05-10-2004, 11:56 AM

as the Hawks will say....shoot the Bas*ards

http://www.ciriello.com/

There´s even a video of it. Truly a great photographer, RIP.

Argyll

05-10-2004, 12:01 PM

as the Hawks will say....shoot the Bas*ards

http://www.ciriello.com/

There´s even a video of it. Truly a great photographer, RIP.

Jesus..........am I right in thinking he got shot when he appeared around a corner with a shoulder mounted device, where insurgents had just been firing from?

I've watched severl documentaries about these guys,some of them are ballsy,others are clowns,most seem to know what to do and what not to do!

Javehn

05-10-2004, 12:06 PM

WOW !!!! WHAT AN IDIOT JOURNALIST !!!! NEVER EVER EVER EVER POP FROM AROUND A CORNER , WHEN 2 SECONDS BEFORE SOME PALIES FIRED . NEVER , WHAT AN IDIOT !!!

Mustamato , your point will be , except of promoting your agenda? My point is that Journalist is an idiot , and that was exactly a reason why IDF didn't allowed anymore cameramen inside fighting areas . Exactly because of it . So you can take your point , and shove it up your ass .

gilgoul

05-10-2004, 12:06 PM

Ones who don't suddenly appear from nowhere after an incident spring to mind,these guys are getting tipped of and in some extreme case have orginised attacks to suit their stories.

No real abswer to this one ,as the Hawks will say....shoot the Bas*ards,and the doves will say,they're only doing their job.[/quote]

Thank you for this quick answer

I ave to say that I experienced some strange phenomenon last year.
Visiting east jerusalem and Betlehem with a freind who came to visit me n Israel, we are both crasy abot photography, so we both took our cameras (they are BIG cameras) and, as soon as we found ourselves near the Damascus gate of the old jerusalem, palestinians started to call us and asked us if we where journalists.
My freind is, so he said yes, and so (me not being very happy about it), the palis asked him to come to the Gate, and as soon as we got there, they started to pelt with stone the few border gards who were patrolling the area.
The same thing happened in betlehem :( , even if we vehemently denied any connection with any media.
I noticed also during my reserve the correlation between media presence and disorder.
But in the same time, I`m really bothered by the "anti journalist" feeling of a lot of soldiers (of whatever nationality).

Javehn

05-10-2004, 12:15 PM

I have very serious anti journalist feelings (BBC mostly ) , because of some insident that happend to me in Nablus . On that incident my crue saved a life of tens of people , and a reporter of BBC turned it into the bigest pile of rubbish i ever heard in my entire life (let's see that seying your tank in one frame , and hearing inoccent and shooting , driving over in background is not very nice) . Many reporters looking for immidiate story , and when they can't find it , they invent one . Like the stuff you said earlier (i can tell you one funny thing , that one day Palie throwed stones on IDF soldiers , some Russian journalists asked them to do it from other side , because the son was blocking their cameras , and they did so . Staged "killing" , heard about it ? That what our friend Truthsayer and Mustamato likes the most . Bad angles of photographing -making look like you are pointing at small kid , and so on ) .

They are also like annoying bugs , and after that incident , i trully hate reporters .

Soon i am going to bring a picture , why they are getting killed .

gilgoul

05-10-2004, 12:16 PM

as the Hawks will say....shoot the Bas*ards

http://www.ciriello.com/

There´s even a video of it. Truly a great photographer, RIP.

Just saw the video.
Truly the most unconscious and stupid act in a street battle!!!
the guy just filmed some palis shooting from a corner, and then goed, unannounced, to the VERY same corner?
I can tell you, i`m not considered trigger happy, but I would have shot without any question!!!
This guy, may he RIP, did a fatal mistake, especially with a video camera on the shoulder.
Thi has nothing to do with Israel, or Irak, or Kosovo or whatever conflict on this poor earth.
But now that I saw the video, That is so self indincting, and i remember the fuss made about his death, it reinforces my opinion about the bias against Israel, but also against whatever army when some journalist is injured or killed, tey need to blame someone, and organized army take it and don`t prevent you to work afterward, as opposed to "freedom" groups, but as far as I see this video (and it`s the fourth time I watch it), there is only one person to blame, himself.

Kenshin

05-10-2004, 12:26 PM

What do you guys think that he should have done before popping up in the corner? Raise a white flag or shout "Journalist coming out"?. But I guess the best was not to do that thing at all.

He may have been thinking of getting a shot at what the forces are firing at. Gettting a perspective on how those forces actually see their foes.

OldRecon

05-10-2004, 01:13 PM

I have very serious anti journalist feelings (BBC mostly ) , because of some insident that happend to me in Nablus . On that incident my crue saved a life of tens of people , and a reporter of BBC turned it into the bigest pile of rubbish i ever heard in my entire life (let's see that seying your tank in one frame , and hearing inoccent and shooting , driving over in background is not very nice) . Many reporters looking for immidiate story , and when they can't find it , they invent one . Like the stuff you said earlier (i can tell you one funny thing , that one day Palie throwed stones on IDF soldiers , some Russian journalists asked them to do it from other side , because the son was blocking their cameras , and they did so . Staged "killing" , heard about it ? That what our friend Truthsayer and Mustamato likes the most . Bad angles of photographing -making look like you are pointing at small kid , and so on ) .
They are also like annoying bugs , and after that incident , i trully hate reporters .

Soon i am going to bring a picture , why they are getting killed .

For my part I'm not a particular fan of Middle East Television, especialy not that guy with the blonde curly hair working for them from Maryajoun.
And the way the incident where we lost a guy at Borhouz were reported at home was just phuking shame.

Javehn

05-10-2004, 01:26 PM

For my part I'm not a particular fan of Middle East Television, especialy not that guy with the blonde curly hair working for them from Maryajoun.
And the way the incident where we lost a guy at Borhouz were reported at home was just phuking shame.

Middle Eastern TV , isn't that a Lebaneze Cristian channel ? I remember we had it for some time , it had actually pretty good view . What was the accident in Borhouz ?

cqbrdy

05-10-2004, 01:28 PM

i take pics all the time and ive thought about becoming an embedded photographer just taking pics of the soldiers fighting would be cool to me.
yes i would carry a personal protection device along side my camera and vid. camera, my "butt pack" would be filled with film and batteries.
id wear armor and kevlar. i would love to interveiw the soldiers after a fight and take funny pics of them while in the heat of combat and record their gruntings and remarks while shooting. then go home and make movies from it and send it to each of them, what ever unit i was with.
plus i think actually being one of them would let me go with them places some other photographers cant go and see what others cant.

catdat

05-10-2004, 03:02 PM

In this report they are trying to defend this guy but no where do they deny what he's been accused of. I cry no tears for these worms.

How do we know they don't provide "support, financing and coordination" in Iraq?

Source: Al Jezeera

Spanish judge orders Al-Jazeera reporter to jail
September 11, 2003 / Madrid, Spain / AP

A Spanish judge on Thursday formally charged a top reporter for Al-Jazeera of being a member of al-Qaida, saying he carried out "support, financing and coordination" for the terrorist network.
Investigating judge Baltasar Garzon charged Tayssir Alouni, 48, with membership in an armed group and ordered him held in the high-security Soto del Real prison near Madrid after a 72- hour extension of his arrest expired, the National Court said. Alouni was not present during the hearing.
...Alouni's wife, Fatima Zohra Hamed Layesi, burst into tears upon learning the news.
...Al-Jazeera sent a letter this week to Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar calling on him to release Alouni.
"On several occasions Western journalists met secretly with secret organizations and they were not subjected to any legal action because they were doing their job, so why is Alouni being excluded?," the letter said.

Javehn

05-10-2004, 03:10 PM

You know , that is kind of funny , because i heard that rummor :

During the days of bombardment on our border with Lebanon , Hisballah would sharply do it at the same day of the day , 5 oclock . In 5 oclock there were major news of El-Jazeera , and i heard that Hisballah shelled in that exact hour , to give El-Jazeera some exclusive matterial , "live" for 5 oclock news .

Roger Rabbit

05-10-2004, 03:15 PM

yes i would carry a personal protection device

If you do this then do you not give up your status as a non-combatant?

AirZone

05-10-2004, 03:22 PM

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/photodir.php?photofile=Raids/Ramallah/080.jpg

:cantbeli: :bash: :cantbeli: :bash:

JiJoMacLE45

05-10-2004, 03:26 PM

They jeopardize not only our safety, but their safety as well when they put themselves neck dip in our ****. That sounds a little backwards, but when they get hurt it all of sudden is our fault that we didn't protect them, like my number one priority was keeping little Susie Jones safe and sound for her 5 o'clock live feed. Like it or not, there are just some things that do not need public consumption, but don't tell them that. "What do you have to hide", hey asshole I'm trying to keep your worthless ass safe from a scumbag that you want to turn into a damn hero while bashing me for doing my damn job, which I might add you would be ripping me apart if I had failed to do in the first place. We can't win.

scm77

05-10-2004, 03:46 PM

JiJoMacLE45

05-10-2004, 03:53 PM

I call that Darwinism.

Ichhabe

05-10-2004, 03:55 PM

as the Hawks will say....shoot the Bas*ards

http://www.ciriello.com/

There´s even a video of it. Truly a great photographer, RIP.

Holy ****. I didn't know that footage existed. It's sad that he died, but that was a pretty stupid thing to do.

Also, that site is meant to honour him? What better way to honour your lost friend by posting the footage of him being killed. :roll:

That was not a very clever move. Reading what he did, did not give a clear picture of the event. untill you saw the actuall situation filmed by himself. That was like actually begging for a bullet.

I have myself about 10 hours of raw material filmed by ABC in Lebanon in 1982. THere are many situations where everything is peacfull untill the journalists make their apperance.
A scene that I specially remember is where a group of PLO-soldiers drive through a crossing, shooting from inside a VW-bus. This is being done about 6-7 times untill the drivers is hit and they have to rush him to the hopital. The photographers are of course 2 steps behind and film him as he fades away on the surgery-table.

I have had some business with journalists, good and bad. I try just to think that they are doing their job, even if some side set up a mock-attack so they can film us while we are running toward over fireing positions.

cqbrdy

05-10-2004, 03:57 PM

yes i would carry a personal protection device
If you do this then do you not give up your status as a non-combatant?i wouldnt care, im not going to be taken captive cause ill be with a unit hopefully. this is all hypothetical.

Tane Angle

05-10-2004, 04:43 PM

i wouldnt care, im not going to be taken captive cause ill be with a unit hopefully. this is all hypothetical.Keith Maupin probably said the same thing. Just a heads up. On the other hand, Daniel Pearl, Terry Anderson, and many others have been taken hostage while trying to stay out of the way. Daniel Pearl, for example, was covering Afghanistan from Pakistan, because he wanted to stay out of the way.

In all honesty, I like them when they're telling the truth, and when they're staying out of our way, and out of harm's way. Say a TV crew wants an exclusive, say by going into Najaf. Then say that the journalists are taken hostage? Well now we've got a hostage situation on our hands that will require the US/CPA to lose face, to probably give something up politically, and if we send in intelligence gathering and rescue teams, then we put people's lives on the line. What happens if an rescue force shooter is killed or maimed over an exclusive? How do we tell a widow or a mother that?

Now I'm not blaming Daniel Pearl or Terry Anderson, because they weren't like the ones who went into Baghdad before the war started. This actually refers especially to the Sean Penn's of the world. It's not their right to put CT forces in harms way, but the CT forces don't have a choice, they have to do the rescue if they're ordered to.

I was going to say something else, but can't remember. :oops:

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

JiJoMacLE45

05-10-2004, 04:49 PM

I was going to say something else, but can't remember.

The first signs of Alzheimer's are loss of memory and forgetfulness . . . just kidding ;) .

Roger Rabbit

05-10-2004, 07:24 PM

Very interesting post and thankyou to all who posted. There is a book written by Jon Steele called "War Junkie"(http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0552149845/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-6028094-9368450) which is his biography talking about his postings to Russia, the Balkans, Africa(covering Rwanda) and his eventual breakdown)

Does anyone have any more infomation concerning USMC Correspondants? I've had an interest in them since watching Full Metal Jacket and reading Gustav Hasford book 'The Short Timers' (Gustav Hasford's books The Short-Timers, Phantom Blooper and Gypsy Good Time can be found at this link http://www.gustavhasford.com/short.htm

If anyone else is interested in Combat Correspondants then i suggest reading Dispatches by Michael Herr, who is mentioned on the link i posted above although in a negative light. This is the Amazon link to Michael Herr's book http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0330491997/qid=1084231426/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/026-6028094-9368450

Caribou Kid

05-10-2004, 08:14 PM

Nice to see an original thread topic, gilgoul. Good choice. :)

Media are like a knife, in that they cut both ways. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. As mentioned by Tane angle, the family of Kieth Maupin would have never known his abduction had took place (now there's a scary thought!) had he not been thrust in front of the cameras of an Australian ABC news crew who happened to be in the right spot at the right time. Thus, score one plus for the media as good guys. :)

The other side of the coin is, as pointed out earlier, when staged or faked incidents are reported. I am not located in Iraq to offer as authentic advice as Argyll or Trigger Puller, but I do aknowledge that this sort of thing is a problem. However, I would urge caution in painting the media with the one single tar brush, as not every journalist is a total waste of time and air. That would be somewhat akin to saying every U.S. soldier is like the reservist MP's at Abu Gharaib, which is obviously not the case at all.
Similarly, there are journalists with integrity and honour out there, asking the hard questions and sweating under the same desert sun, to bring us the images and news we at home yearn to see/hear. The unease of the CPA spokesperson (read:spin doctor) at fielding the questions thrown at him during press conferences is readily evident. This is not a sign of some compliant, lackey media. The fact that the Arabic reporters ask questions in their own tongue and the Generals/spokesperson don earphones for the translation is a sign that the US/CPA is willing to be open (to a limited degree...) and transpaprent to the media. Is this a sign of the media being "parasitic maggots?" No.... :|

I do aknowledge that many incidents have been covered by reporters with little morals or scruples, if any. But are these people not the same sort of jackals that would take pictures of a dying Princess Diana? Would they be included in the same group of idiots who hire helicopters to photograph the wedding of Madonna/David Beckham/Brad Pitt? :oops: Just because it is a war zone does not mean they have the monoploy on stupid press reporters, okay? But they are not ALL hatched from the same nest, if you follow my meaning.

It is sad that several of us have had bad experiences when dealing with the media, and I do sympathise with the troops on the ground who have to contend with wandering random journos on top of everything else they have to deal with, but please, just remember, they aren't all bad. .

juhae

05-11-2004, 03:06 AM

Jesus..........am I right in thinking he got shot when he appeared around a corner with a shoulder mounted device, where insurgents had just been firing from?
Actually, if you pay a bit more attention to the video footage, you'll notice the video begins from a shoulder-height perspective, but as soon as he gets moving, the perspective changes to a lower position, which suggest he wasn't carrying the camera on his shoulder.

American Patriot

05-11-2004, 03:32 AM

What a dumb journalist. Did the Israelis get a lot of crap over this?

gilgoul

05-11-2004, 05:36 AM

Commie

05-11-2004, 06:02 AM

I must agree with this one... Real clumsy journalist move..
(Im beginning my journalist studies in 4 months)

Judging by the quality this was smaller digital camera this guy could just has held his arm out instead of sticking out his head and just risk loosing his arm.
Or maybe the bullets went trough the wall?

But that was a really blunt move.

juhae

05-11-2004, 06:04 AM

What are you tring to find? In a second you`ll tell me that he was shot deliberately :slap:
Sorry, I don't feed trolls.

ikurinturbiini

05-11-2004, 07:10 AM

All of us, users of militaryphotos.net, seem to be great consumers of news, photos, articles about our respective forces in diferent operational theatre.
In the same time, I noticed a certain agressivity toward journalists and photographers/cameramen from law enforcement and militaries.
I heard often the comment,"they are vultures", like parasites, etc..
What do you think could be done to improve relations between media, especially image reporters, and the military.
Second, what would be according to you the perfect photographer attitude when it comes to relation with military personels in covering conflicts?

Journalists who write things you don't want to hear are parasites.

Things you don't want to believe are lies.

People who disagree with you are wrong.

War is peace.

Etc.

cqbrdy

05-11-2004, 07:58 AM

i know if i were to do that there would be risks,
but hey, in order to get another angle on the war
in a soldiers perspective is what i want to do.
kinda like what the guy did in we were soldiers,
he took pics then fought with them.
journalists/photo journalists have to tell the troops stories
not the medias.

catdat

05-11-2004, 08:54 AM

Here's an example of the problem:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/669D7360-1869-4900-AC91-F833F21E7AA6.htm

These guys interviewed someone in this company, CACI, which has a contract to provide interogators. Since it is apparently a public firm they told Al Jezeera that the Army was happy so far with their work. This is a statement meant to placate shareholders. It's not a statement from the Army or the US Government.

Despite that, the headline reads US army 'pleased' with interrogators

oh and the little poll on the same page? wtf does that mean? I'm clueless as to the "plot".

gilgoul

05-11-2004, 09:23 AM

?

Journalists who write things you don't want to hear are parasites.

Things you don't want to believe are lies.

People who disagree with you are wrong.

War is peace.

Etc.[/quote]

As I see kamarad, you`ve develloped a certain nostalgia for defunct symbols and not treated whatsoever YOUR OBVIOUS LACK OF PROFICIENCY IN READING UNDERSTANDING.
Never oh never have I treated journalists of parasites, am I accusing anyone of lying without proof and do get confused between war and peace, cause I`ve learn the Pavlovian way!!!

:bash:

martinexsquaddie

05-11-2004, 10:00 AM

the media have a job to do and sometimes don't seem to have much common
the unfortunate ITN crew who tried to cross the frontlines and got killed in iraq spring to mind be on the iraq side or the coalition side trying to cross during a battle bad move :(

big80a2

05-11-2004, 10:48 AM

media has to check democracy. But nowadays it's so about money they forget there own dutie.
The opinions of journalists become fact's and these opinions are taken over by other media as facts.
The media is biased.

There is a discussion about the role of the media going on in the Netherlands. This after the minister of justice said the thinks I said above.
And I agree with him. The funny part was that communication specialists and some madia managers also said alot of his points where right.

Media needs to be controlled again but not to much, it's a difficult question :|

ikurinturbiini

05-11-2004, 12:07 PM

Journalists who write things you don't want to hear are parasites.

Things you don't want to believe are lies.

People who disagree with you are wrong.

War is peace.

Etc.

As I see kamarad, you`ve develloped a certain nostalgia for defunct symbols and not treated whatsoever YOUR OBVIOUS LACK OF PROFICIENCY IN READING UNDERSTANDING.

Never oh never have I treated journalists of parasites, am I accusing anyone of lying without proof and do get confused between war and peace, cause I`ve learn the Pavlovian way!!!

:bash:

Calme-toi, mec! Je ne suis pas l'ennemi! D'accord?

I'm using the "you"-construction instead of the passive. I mean to say

"journalists are often called parasites by people who don't like the things they [journalists] are writing."

Incidentally, journalists were called "vultures" by a Russian forum member who has issues with free press. I immediately assumed that you were referring to that forumite's post.

The rest is an allusion to Orwell's masterpiece "Nineteen Eighty-Four" that deals with disinformation in a totalitarian system, among other things.

Nothing in my post was directed against you or the views in your original posting. You asked some very good questions there.

Paix! :oops: