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shadowsrider
08-12-2007, 10:39 AM
There is an interesting article in todays Gazeta Wyborcza.
In 1937 there was an "Order 00048" presented to NKVDs officers by Jezhov which was of course initiated by Stalin.
Quite unknown facts...
The officers were shocked as one of them writes "we were previously ordered to murder kulaks, imperialists, white regime members but it was first order to arrest people basing just on national orgin". Even they has doubts fullfilling it. Basing on fictional fact that NKVD is infiltrated by "secret Polish conspiracy organization" called POW Polish communists, workers and inhabitants were to be arrested as he writes "not in dozens or hundreds - in thousands".
First communists who emigrated to USSR were arrested then all people having Polish origins. Especially massive arrests took place in Leningrad.
"You in Poland had no idea what operation it was" he writes. 111.000 Poles living in USSR lost their lives. Wives were sent for 8 or 10 years to lagers.

It is well known that in 1939 1.5 million Poles were arrested and sent to lager camps. I also remember my father tales who was arrested for ... being a painter, sent to Volga river and then saved by... Wehrmacht officer.
From this 1.5 million several hundreds thousand died, from the rest 2 Polish armies were formed - first it was 2nd Polish corps that escaped to Persia and then fought under British command, second 1st Polish Army that fought on Russian and Polish front.

But those 1937 facts were pretty unknown.

Igor01
08-12-2007, 01:02 PM
It is well known that in 1939 1.5 million Poles were arrested and sent to lager camps.

The numbers from Polish studies based on research conducted by Memorial and actual NKVD data are much lower, according to Ośrodka KARTA (http://www.karta.org.pl/) about 320.000 persons were deported between 1939 and 1941. Throughout the entire "Soviet" period from 1939 to late 1980's the total number of Poles arrested and deported was 570.387.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/428009665_0ceef3410d_o.gif

Summary (in Polish): http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_10.html

I would also like to see some sources of less than anecdotal nature substantiating the claim that NKVD "were previously ordered to murder kulaks, imperialists, white regime members but it was first order to arrest people basing just on national orgin". I strongly suspect they exist only in Gazeta Wyborcza journalists imagination.

Musashi
08-12-2007, 01:54 PM
Thanks, Igor01 for the link :) It's something I needed.

Igor01
08-12-2007, 02:55 PM
In 1937 there was an "Order 00048" presented to NKVDs officers by Jezhov which was of course initiated by Stalin.

...111.000 Poles living in USSR lost their lives. Wives were sent for 8 or 10 years to lagers.

I can only assume you are referring to NKVD Operational Order N.00447 issued on August 9, 1937 that "About facsit, subversive, spy, defeatist and terrorist activities of Polish Intelligence in USSR". The Order as well as a Complimentary Letter that explained what categories are to be targeted, namely:

1. Known and still at large active members of PWO according to the attached list.
2. All former POW's presently remaining in USSR.
3. All defectors from Poland, irregardless of the time of their defection to USSR.
4. Political emigrees and persons returned to USSR as a result of exchanges.
5. Former members of PPS (Polish Socialist party) and other political parties.
6. The most active antisoviet and nationalist elements in Polish regions.

According to Memorial, 148.810 persons were arrested as a result of this Order, 139.835 were convicted, out of which 111.091 were given the death sentence. Not all the arrested and convicted were Poles, for example from those whose cases were deliverated by the Osobye Troiki were 36.768, out of which Poles were 20.147.

A very tragic time, indeed, however the facts don't quite fit the GW's rendition of NKVD officers being ordered "to murder Poles based on their national origin".

shadowsrider
08-13-2007, 05:20 AM
good posts, thanks Igor

Flamming_Python
08-13-2007, 09:27 AM
Quite disgracefull actions :-(

But I would imagine that it happened no less and no more for Poles than for anyone else.

daily666
08-13-2007, 11:38 AM
Quite disgracefull actions :-(

But I would imagine that it happened no less and no more for Poles than for anyone else.

Especially for Russians themselves. Stalin inflicted a massive bloodbath among them, not to include Ukrainians and others. Didn't he actually deported all Chechens to Siberia?

Flamming_Python
08-13-2007, 01:32 PM
Especially for Russians themselves. Stalin inflicted a massive bloodbath among them, not to include Ukrainians and others. Didn't he actually deported all Chechens to Siberia?

To Kazakhstan I believe. Along with the Kalmyks and a few others, because they were suspected of collaborating with the Germans (true to some extent). Though they were deported, they weren't put into the Gulags or anything, just resettled with high attrition.

The Koreans in the Far East got screwed over badly (some 200,000-300,000 of them). They were certainly pretty anti-Japanese, but they got deported to Central Asia anyway, because Stalin decided that it would be too easy for Japanese spies to hide themselves among the Korean population of the Russian Far East.

daily666
08-13-2007, 04:18 PM
To Kazakhstan I believe. Along with the Kalmyks and a few others, because they were suspected of collaborating with the Germans (true to some extent). Though they were deported, they weren't put into the Gulags or anything, just resettled with high attrition.

The Koreans in the Far East got screwed over badly (some 200,000-300,000 of them). They were certainly pretty anti-Japanese, but they got deported to Central Asia anyway, because Stalin decided that it would be too easy for Japanese spies to hide themselves among the Korean population of the Russian Far East.

Yeah, he was preety paranoid.

Marmot1
08-14-2007, 04:14 AM
The numbers from Polish studies based on research conducted by Memorial and actual NKVD data are much lower, according to Ośrodka KARTA (http://www.karta.org.pl/) about 320.000 persons were deported between 1939 and 1941. Throughout the entire "Soviet" period from 1939 to late 1980's the total number of Poles arrested and deported was 570.387.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/428009665_0ceef3410d_o.gif

Summary (in Polish): http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_10.html

I would also like to see some sources of less than anecdotal nature substantiating the claim that NKVD "were previously ordered to murder kulaks, imperialists, white regime members but it was first order to arrest people basing just on national orgin". I strongly suspect they exist only in Gazeta Wyborcza journalists imagination.


Remember that it is only number officially confirmed in documents, that were found so far, there is always shadow number of those who were deported or murdered without any trace in official documents... and of course some documenst are still classified as secret, and we do not know what they contain.

There is also difference in classification, Russian sources usually exclude Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanian and Russians who were Polish citizens before 1939 as non poles, on the other side Polish sources usually use classification basing on nationality not ethnicity. It's why we count for example all jews (living in Poland before WW2) murdered in concentration camps as polish nationals.

Igor01
08-14-2007, 10:47 AM
Remember that it is only number officially confirmed in documents, that were found so far, there is always shadow number of those who were deported or murdered without any trace in official documents... and of course some documenst are still classified as secret, and we do not know what they contain.

NKVD were very thorough with their statistics, more than good enough even for Memorial who cannot be suspected of being NKVD sympathisers for obvious reasons.

The allegations of people being "deported or murdered without any trace in official documents" belong in the realm of sensational mythology. Despite what you may want to believe, USSR was no run by some fantacy NKVD death squads running amok, but by a massive red tape bureaucratic apparatus, no individual functionaries would dare to undertake any steps without an expressed direction from their superiors, for the same reason of covering their asses they documented all their actions.


There is also difference in classification, Russian sources usually exclude Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanian and Russians who were Polish citizens before 1939 as non poles, on the other side Polish sources usually use classification basing on nationality not ethnicity. It's why we count for example all jews (living in Poland before WW2) murdered in concentration camps as polish nationals.

Care to point out how Jews murdered in concentration camps have anything to do with the topic of this thread? The numbers from Memorial's research clearly account for all people who were arrested and/or deported during the "Polish operation" regardless of their nationality or ethnicity.

Memorial's research tends to be very meticulous, even if they tend to lean towards the higher end of estimate ranges. This is precisely the reason that Polish researches accept their findings.

What's interesting is that the real numbers have been well known for about seven years now, however the old inflated "estimates" of 1.5 - 2 million victims continue to circulate in the mass media and speeches of Polish politicians.