New Scottish independence move.

[SHAM]

So whats the outlook from the Scottish members this time.


Scotland's SNP government has set out its plans for a referendum on independence, despite opposition from the other main political parties.
Launching a "national conversation", First Minister Alex Salmond said no change was no longer an option.

The SNP leader said the white paper set out the full range of options which would be debated.

But Labour and the Tories said the document was purely about independence, however it was "dressed up".

The Liberal Democrats said the white paper should be withdrawn, although they welcomed it as the first sign that the Nationalists were prepared to settle for something other than taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom.

The three opposition parties have united to oppose independence, leaving little chance of the minority government's plans for a referendum receiving parliamentary approval.

Although the wide-ranging, 40-page white paper set out the case for a ballot, Mr Salmond said he was "open-minded" on alternative opinions.

If Alex Salmond wants a conversation about devolution, then he can join ours. We don't need a white paper to have a chat

He said it was the "settled will" of the Scottish people for their parliament to grow in "influence and authority".

"We in the government believe that independence would be the best for our country," Mr Salmond told a press conference in Edinburgh.

"Others support increased devolution, or greater responsibility for taxes and spending, or federalism.

"But whatever the differences between the political parties, the message of the election was obvious - the constitutional position of Scotland must move forward."

The white paper sets out what the SNP sees as the three main realistic choices for Scots.

These are:

The present devolved set-up;

Redesigning devolution by extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament in specific areas;

Or full independence.
The white paper also includes the draft wording of the ballot paper for a referendum.

This asks voters whether they agree or disagree "that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

However, Mr Salmond said he was relaxed about the possibility of a multi-option referendum, even though he admitted that "might not" be his preference.

'Not wanted'

He said: "The opportunity now presents itself for those who want another option in a referendum to define that option and present the case to the government for inclusion on the ballot paper".

However, Scottish Labour Deputy Leader Cathy Jamieson said the people of Scotland did not want independence.

She said: "No-one should be under any illusion. The white paper is about breaking up the UK, not making Scotland better.

"The SNP may suggest that this document considers a range of options but no matter how you look at it, it is fundamentally about independence."

The SNP obsession with independence is a road-block to consensus

Nicol Stephen
Scottish Lib Dem leader

Her comments were echoed by Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservative leader, who added: "However it is dressed up, and however many bells, whistles and frills are attached, at its core is the SNP's separatist agenda.

"If Alex Salmond wants a conversation about devolution, then he can join ours. We don't need a white paper to have a chat."

"It is time to defeat this draft independence bill and move on to deal with bread and butter issues which really matter and how we can all make devolution work better."

Distinctive views

Scottish Lib Dem leader Nicol Stephen said the white paper was good news, claiming the SNP was moving in their preferred direction of winning more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

"The SNP obsession with independence is a road-block to consensus," said Scotland's former deputy first minister.

"The white paper is a waste of taxpayers' money. It should be withdrawn. That would allow progress to be made on the campaign to gain more powers."

The pro-independence Scottish Greens said all the parties owed it to the public to take part in genuine dialogue about Scotland's constitutional future.

Patrick Harvie, one of the party's two MSPs, said: "Each of Scotland's parties represents a distinctive view on the constitutional settlement, and each of those opinions must be properly represented."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6944934.stm



Edit: Figured I'd save you an asswhipping. Christ you misspelled "Scottish" in the title and then called them "scotch" instead of "Scottish" always capitalized.

[Mu-Meson]

My advice to the Scottish is to follow the Quebec model for seperatism. Threaten to do it frequently, whine about your culture being subverted constantly, get close to it a couple of times, and then sit back and let the rest of the country bend over backwards to shower you with governmental influence over everyone else, and gobs of cash$$$.

[Ordie]

gobs of cash$$$.

Actually is the other way around with North Sea oil pumping through Alberdeen, Scotland.

[Typhooner]

Actually is the other way around with North Sea oil pumping through Alberdeen, Scotland.

and oil lasts forever, right?

I say let Scotland secede. Then we won't have to subsidise them. No more free Student loans. No more free presciptions. Let them pay for their own parliament and fund their own projects.

And that's ignoring the shared bargaining power that Scotand gets from being allied with England and Wales. Without it Scotland would have a tiny say in the EU and its interests not backed up by 55 million other citizens of the UK.

Let them declare independance.

[Flamming_Python]

and oil lasts forever, right?

I say let Scotland secede. Then we won't have to subsidise them. No more free Student loans. No more free presciptions. Let them pay for their own parliament and fund their own projects.

And that's ignoring the shared bargaining power that Scotand gets from being allied with England and Wales. Without it Scotland would have a tiny say in the EU and its interests not backed up by 55 million other citizens of the UK.

Let them declare independance.

That would make the UK weaker though. Exactly the problem with the EU, more and more regions are encouraged to seperatism because of the rise of a central authority in Brussels. Once powerfull European countries break up into smaller less influential states, the EU will have an even easier time of centralising power and taking over the roles of sovereign governments. But then again, you could look upon it as a good thing. Really depends on what one's views on the future of Europe are.

[PaulClift]

to shower you with governmental influence over everyone else

They already get that.

[Ordie]

It doesn't matter, they are all part of the EU.

[RECON DOC]

http://www.youtube.com/v/jiDiM-9VSpQ

[Rictor]

I say let Scotland secede. Then we won't have to subsidise them. No more free Student loans. No more free presciptions. Let them pay for their own parliament and fund their own projects.

Ireland seems to be doing fine for itself, so why couldn't the same be true of Scotland. And I don't know what "interests" Scotland has which need to be backed by the UK...

Besides, Sean Connery is in favour of independence. If James Bond says it, who are we mere mortals to object? Anyone who opposes Connery is a limp-wristed girly man.

[RAFREGT.]

So whats the outlook from the scotch members this time.



SCOTCH?!?!?! WE ARE SCOTTISH!!!! :bash:Scotch is a bloody drink! If DW58 was here he'd skin you for that!


anyway....on independance my view is NO. we should stay part of GREAT BRITAIN.

[MichaelF]

Besides, Sean Connery is in favour of independence. If James Bond says it, who are we mere mortals to object? Anyone who opposes Connery is a limp-wristed girly man.

Connery couldn't find Scotland on a ****ing map.

[LRPV]

[quote=RAFREGT;2704987]SCOTCH?!?!?! WE ARE SCOTTISH!!!! :bash:Scotch is a bloody drink! If DW58 was here he'd skin you for that!




:) Someone needs a wee dram of scotch to calm the nerves....p-)

[Typhooner]

Ireland seems to be doing fine for itself, so why couldn't the same be true of Scotland. And I don't know what "interests" Scotland has which need to be backed by the UK...

And Ireland - while rich - is still pretty much insignificant in Europe.

Scotland has a much louder voice as part of the UK. On it's own it's nothing.

If Scotland splits: what happens to its military industry?

Scotland has much more to lose imo.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

My advice to the Scottish is to follow the Quebec model for seperatism. Threaten to do it frequently, whine about your culture being subverted constantly, get close to it a couple of times, and then sit back and let the rest of the country bend over backwards to shower you with governmental influence over everyone else, and gobs of cash$$$.

That's exactly what they do already

[TriggerHappy]

I am sure if they really want independence they can do it easily. It is not as if England will send troops over there to quell the “separatists”.
My question is if Scottish people really want to separate?
What percentage of the population is in favour of independence?

[mas-36]

What about the sheep!? Has anyone thought about asking them? What do they have to say about Scottish independence? ;-)

[wotsnext]

What about the sheep!? Has anyone thought about asking them? What do they have to say about Scottish independence? ;-)
I think the tories are against the idea.....:)

[Flamming_Python]

What about the sheep!? Has anyone thought about asking them? What do they have to say about Scottish independence? ;-)

You're thinking of Wales :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

It’s about time England and Wales broke free from the yoke of Scottish tyranny.

[oldsoak]

It’s about time England and Wales broke free from the yoke of Scottish tyranny.

- come now, Brown has not been in the job long...:-P

- I for one would be sad to see the Scots go. The Scots are a vital part of Britain and have been a great measure of what makes the Uk. Considering the blood shared ( and spilt ) between the nations, their leaving would be a great loss.

[martinexsquaddie]

bye bye porridge wogs :)
only if we get a harridans wall back and can shoot the neds as they try to flee south or get catapulted towards the electric fence
in fact we could load chavs are side of the wall and fire them into the are so the scots could have target practice as well:)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

- come now, Brown has not been in the job long...:-P

- I for one would be sad to see the Scots go. The Scots are a vital part of Britain and have been a great measure of what makes the Uk. Considering the blood shared ( and spilt ) between the nations, their leaving would be a great loss.Independence is an eventuality but its not going to happen anytime soon unless of course you guys vote in a hugely unpopular (in Scotland) Conservative leader. Don’t worry were still next door and you can nip in for a cuppa anytime you want.
:hug:

[California Joe]

FFS Martin, it's Hadrians Wall.

[Lov3ll]

I wonder if having to change to the euro would change a few of the Scots minds on wanting independence. p-)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I wonder if having to change to the euro would change a few of the Scots minds on wanting independence. p-)Probably not and I would imagine that the £ and parity with it would be a desire for the forseeable future. Some of us have been doing £>€ conversions in their heads at 04.00hrs for some years now.:)

[wotsnext]

King Alex......It does have a certain ring to it I grant you p-)

[martinexsquaddie]

I'm an idiot
if they do get independence we can invade again :)
cullodean 11 and this time mel gibson won't be helping you :)

[the39steps]

There are some comments on this from the true believers on the snp's own website.

http://www.snp.org/people/alex/snp_blog.2006-11-30.6829651355/posts/40

But none of them say how they are going to fund it after the money from the rest of the UK is cut off. The first contributor says that he is voting SNP not just for a free scotland, but for the "thousands who died fighting for Scotland at Culloden!" Blimey! Someone has been watching Braveheart WAY too many times :)

[phoebus]

Scotland has some important British Nuclear & military facilities though, I don't think they could possibly suggest a relocation! Who's going to pay, or if the become independent does this mean the UK will pay rent?

It's like saying "I'm having eggs, bacon and sausages without backed beans" :roll:

[MichaelF]

Expecting Whitehall to let Scotland walk (it's an even bet that they'll just shut down the Scottish Parliament, as happened with Stormont in NI) with the North Sea oil is hilarious.

If Scotland walks, I imagine that the UK will keep the oil and the new terminal will be in Newcastle.

Not that Scotland's economy breaks even if they do get the oil. It's largely a welfare state, and the GDP does not equal the cost of doing business (NHS, unemployment, public services, government functions, etc). The loss of the money flowing into the local economy from the MoD (Scotland has a lot of military installations) won't help, either.


An independant Scotland is Albania with kilts.

Never mind that there is no evidence that the Scottish Parliament has the power to repeal the Act of Union, subordinate as it is to Westminster.

[Buckeye67]

The first contributor says that he is voting SNP not just for a free scotland, but for the "thousands who died fighting for Scotland at Culloden!" Blimey! Someone has been watching Braveheart WAY too many times :)


I'm an idiot
if they do get independence we can invade again :)
cullodean 11 and this time mel gibson won't be helping you :)

You guys do realise that there was about 450 years between "Braveheart" and Culloden, hey? p-)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I think that it would be far better politically, economically and culturally for Sotland to become an Indpendent nation than to remain part of the Union. Ireland is a clear example of what the Scottish economy could become if not better than the Irish system. North sea oil and gas, the fishing industry the proxcimity to England along with a land link to Europe could prove very benifical to the Scottish economy.
Politically Scotland would have an Independent say on the world stage in world affairs rather than as a member of the Union.
Culturally it could promote itself better as an Independent nation.

I would love one day to see the land of my Grandfather as an Independent nation, much like it's Western Celtic neighbour.

That's my two cents.

Ireland's economy developed in the way it did primarily because of the huge amounts of EU funding pumped into it in the '80s and '90s. The situation is entirely different now and Scotland could not simply expect to receive anything like it. The EU has now expanded to 27 countries and there are many more competing interests vying for the funding.

Alex Salmond seems to be forgetting that the SNP is a minority administration in Scotland which is clinging on by the skin of it's teeth.

The greatest aspiration of the Scots Nats seems to be to swap union with the UK (in which Scotland punches above it's weight both politically and culturally) with union with the EU (in which it will just be yet another peripheral backwater).

It's hardly the kind of prospectus to set the pulse racing is it.
Some people need to be careful about what they wish for.

[futurepilot2004]

Ireland's economy developed in the way it did primarily because of the huge amounts of EU funding pumped into it in the '80s and '90s.


That and us turning the entire country into a tax haven but the less said about that........:)

[martinexsquaddie]

its my attempt at humor
although a lot of American ulster scots rock up at cullodean too find where there brave ancestors thought the tyrannical british only to discover there forebears were fighting with the evil red coats opps:)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

its my attempt at humor
although a lot of American ulster scots rock up at cullodean too find where there brave ancestors thought the tyrannical british only to discover there forebears were fighting with the evil red coats opps:)

The number of Scots in the Government army at Culloden outnumbered the Jacobite rebels (who actually had Irish troops and French mercs fighting for them as well as Highland clansmen)

[timetraveller]

Waste of time now ... Alex Salmond seems to forget if Scotland if had it's independance long ago well before i was born , Scotland would have been one of the richest Countries in Europe ..

As Scotland has lost vast amounts of revenue since the days Oil and Gas was found in the North Sea

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Waste of time now ... Alex Salmond seems to forget if Scotland if had it's independance long ago well before i was born , Scotland would have been one of the richest Countries in Europe ..

As Scotland has lost vast amounts of revenue since the days Oil and Gas was found in the North Sea

North sea oil kept Scotland's shipbuilding and engineering industries alive for a lot longer than they would have survived otherwise.

[timetraveller]

North sea oil kept Scotland's shipbuilding and engineering industries alive for a lot longer than they would have survived otherwise.



I have to disagree A lot of the Ship builders were closing due to the lack of orders And couldn't match the costs the Ship builders in Asia .. were offering
And John brown which built the QE2 was the last famous ship the yard ever built , sadly the yard couldn't compete in the current climate at that time
And my dad worked for Yarrows on the clyde and is credited for 2 Ships Which and left ..to join the Police

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Expecting Whitehall to let Scotland walk (it's an even bet that they'll just shut down the Scottish Parliament, as happened with Stormont in NI) with the North Sea oil is hilarious.Yes we will walk with the oil after all it’s in our territorial waters.


If Scotland walks, I imagine that the UK will keep the oil and the new terminal will be in Newcastle.Please explain how can anyone else other than Scotland lay claim to the resources within it’s economic zone.


Not that Scotland's economy breaks even if they do get the oil. You could argue about this one all day and there multiple data sets out there to either prove or disprove that Scotland’s economy could stand on its own even without oil.
It's largely a welfare state, and the GDP does not equal the cost of doing business (NHS, unemployment, public services, government functions, etc).We have had less privatisation in the public services than England and Wales so public sector employment is higher in Scotland which is now looking like no bad thing given the “gravy train” that privatisation of the public services has become.

The loss of the money flowing into the local economy from the MoD (Scotland has a lot of military installations) won't help, either.The MOD is no longer the large direct employer in Scotland that it used to be, most facilities that existed in the Cold War are now no longer and the MOD support workforce shrinks every year.
There are about 170 companies in Scotland involved in defense manufacturing in the aerospace and marine sectors. Between them, they employ 15,000 people, and in 2005, they generated more than £2.1bn of business between them which is welcome but the Scottish timber industry had sales £2bn of sales so its not that impressive.




An independant Scotland is Albania with kilts.A snide comment based on ignorance of Scotland. Scotland is home to 2 of the largest banks in Europe (RBoS & HBoS) and ranks as 5th most important financial centre in Europe.
Fund managers in Scotland manage over £500 billion and Scotland is the 2nd most important centre for Asset Administration in Europe.
We know that Edinburgh is not about to become the new Zurich and we don’t expect to be the big swinging d*cks of banking and commerce but you can be assured that if we do get independence we will punch above our weight in these sectors.


Never mind that there is no evidence that the Scottish Parliament has the power to repeal the Act of Union, subordinate as it is to Westminster.Yes but Scottish politicians can petition for a referendum, the Act Of Union is not a one way ticket for all parties.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Alex Salmond seems to be forgetting that the SNP is a minority administration in Scotland which is clinging on by the skin of it's teeth.It’s a slim margin for sure but they will build on it, Salmond has never been unpopular politician even amongst Labour and Tory voters, Jack however was disliked even by Labour voters he was a man deemed by many Scots to be a bit sleekit.

[MichaelF]

Please explain how can anyone else other than Scotland lay claim to the resources within it’s economic zone. .

Because, as of right now, "Scotland" does not have an "economic zone". If it does get one, it'll get what the UK (current owners and operators) is willing to part with.

Possession is 9/10 of the law, and the UK (which will remain a coherent unit, even if Scotland bails) is in possession.

As for a "referendum"....Westminster isn't bound by any referendum it does not intiate. One initiated by Holyrood isn't even in the game. And yes, the Act of Union may just possibly be a "one-way" deal, if it does not specifically contain a secession clause.

Remember that the Scottish Parliament is a pensioner of the real "Parliament" that meets in London, and has exactly the authority that Westminster chooses to allow it, and not a bit more. The UK has no counterpart to the 10th Amendment.

As for "ignorance of Scotland"....I grew up there, and spend a good amount of my off-duty time there.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

It’s a slim margin for sure but they will build on it, Salmond has never been unpopular politician even amongst Labour and Tory voters, Jack however was disliked even by Labour voters he was a man deemed by many Scots to be a bit sleekit.

Well we'll see for all that you say about the dynamism of the Edinburgh financial sector there's a massive dependency culture in Scotland and it could go either way. But then I suppose nothing in life or politics or economics is ever certain.

I must remember to ask my Scots Nat brother-in-law if he is going to leave England and return to live and work in Scotland if they get independence. I suspect that he may be a plastic jock.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Because, as of right now, "Scotland" does not have an "economic zone". If it does get one, it'll get what the UK (current owners and operators) is willing to part with.

Possession is 9/10 of the law, and the UK (which will remain a coherent unit, even if Scotland bails) is in possession.

As for a "referendum"....Westminster isn't bound by any referendum it does not intiate. One initiated by Holyrood isn't even in the game. And yes, the Act of Union may just possibly be a "one-way" deal, if it does not specifically contain a secession clause.

Remember that the Scottish Parliament is a pensioner of the real "Parliament" that meets in London, and has exactly the authority that Westminster chooses to allow it, and not a bit more. The UK has no counterpart to the 10th Amendment.

As for "ignorance of Scotland"....I grew up there, and spend a good amount of my off-duty time there.Scottish waters have been clearly defined for legal and law enforcement purposes the Crown Estates also use the same boundaries the term “Scottish Waters” is used in maritime disputes.
The Act of Union 1707 is not irreversible, you do understand that the laws of all parties of the Union can be repealed.

If you spend any time here then you will have realised that there is a growing support for the Nats and their aims.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Well we'll see for all that you say about the dynamism of the Edinburgh financial sector there's a massive dependency culture in Scotland and it could go either way. But then I suppose nothing in life or politics or economics is ever certain.

I must remember to ask my Scots Nat brother-in-law if he is going to leave England and return to live and work in Scotland if they get independence. I suspect that he may be a plastic jock.Lets be honest about this STAB there is massive dependency culture in Northern Britain excepting Cheshire of course where you guys drink Champers like water. My brother has been in London for 8 years and Brighton for 1 and he still has a postal vote up here.

[oldsoak]

Scottish waters have been clearly defined for legal and law enforcement purposes the Crown Estates also use the same boundaries the term “Scottish Waters” is used in maritime disputes.
The Act of Union 1707 is not irreversible, you do understand that the laws of all parties of the Union can be repealed.

If you spend any time here then you will have realised that there is a growing support for the Nats and their aims.

- just like there is a growing support for the BNP and its aims down south. Without wishing to associate the two, there is a similarity in that Scots and English are feeling marginalised as "original owners" of their homelands and want to have more say in matters that affect this view.

[MichaelF]

there is a growing support for the Nats and their aims.

In Scotland. Not the UK as a whole (where Scots are less than 10% of the populace). Which is the level on which this sort of thing will be decided. Have all the referendums you like, if the English don't want you to leave, you're staying.

Unless the SNP can get a majority of Westminster MPs to back them (unlikely, since 2 out of the 3 major Parties loathe them, and the LibDems aren't fond of them either), nothing is going to happen.

If the Scottish Parliament decides to make a powergrab (using a referendum as a mandate to assume powers it does not have, under the Scotland Act), I see it getting the Stormont treatment.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

In Scotland. Not the UK as a whole (where Scots are less than 10% of the populace). Which is the level on which this sort of thing will be decided. Have all the referendums you like, if the English don't want you to leave, you're staying.

Unless the SNP can get a majority of Westminster MPs to back them (unlikely, since 2 out of the 3 major Parties loathe them, and the LibDems aren't fond of them either), nothing is going to happen.

If the Scottish Parliament decides to make a powergrab (using a referendum as a mandate to assume powers it does not have, under the Scotland Act), I see it getting the Stormont treatment.The ultimate decision to leave the union will not be decided by a vote anywhere else other than in Scotland, the nitty gritty of independence will thrashed out by all members of the union not just the English.
You and The Telegraph seem to be the only ones talking about a power grab it’s not going to happen that way.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

- just like there is a growing support for the BNP and its aims down south. Without wishing to associate the two, there is a similarity in that Scots and English are feeling marginalised as "original owners" of their homelands and want to have more say in matters that affect this view.It could be that people on the outer limits of the UK do feel marginalised some of the strongest anti-London feelings that I have ever heard were from Cornish fishermen in the early 1990's they were all pro British but London was 2nd place behind the EU fishery policy in their **** list. And when the BNP did well in the North East it came as no surprise to me as I have known a (now former) BNP organiser for the North East for some years, and on one of the few times we have talked politics he confided how well they were being received door to door.