(UK)Armed gang attacks family in car

[Geezah]

Armed police were called after a family visiting relatives were robbed by 10 masked men, two with guns.

The driver was parked near his parents' home in Eldin Road, Luton, on Thursday evening when a gang surrounded his car.

He fled on foot towards a nearby bridge but two of the offenders caught him and took his car keys, police said.

His brother and a friend also ran away but were not followed. Two girls aged 13 and six left in the car were made to hand over clothing and mobiles phones.

Police described the gang as black men, wearing balaclavas and dark clothing.

It is believed they all left the scene in two vehicles - a dark coloured Vauxhall Corsa and a dark coloured 4x4 vehicle.

A police armed response unit was called in to search the area.

Det Con Gemma Ebberson urged anyone who witnessed the robbery or anyone who knows the robbers to come forward and speak to her in confidence.

"This was a very frightening experience for all involved and the young girls are extremely traumatised by the events of last night.

She added: "The presence of firearms being used during a crime is always of concern to the police and although this type of crime is uncommon, we need the public's help to trace these people before they can re-offend."

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/6952917.stm)

Well no duh..............

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Airsoft p-)

[Kaapeli]

It's kinda funny how in the UK there's a separate "armed police".
In most nations the police is always armed (with firearms).

[PaulClift]

It's kinda funny how in the UK there's a separate "armed police".
In most nations the police is always armed (with firearms).

Thats because we have less gun crime, though its on the increase enough to start having more armed officers in my opinion, in my county (Northamptonshire) they are giving non fire arms officers tasers now. Having armed officers would not have prevented this crime anyway.

[PaulClift]

Is that just PSU or normal response officers?

Just normal bobbies on the beat as far as I'm aware, there was a report about it on Anglia news a few weeks ago.

edit : Though I cant find anything about it on the northants police website, it mentions the taser trial they had for armed officers, but that was back in 2004.

I'm pretty sure I heard the news report correctly though.

[Kaapeli]

Thats because we have less gun crime, though its on the increase enough to start having more armed officers in my opinion, in my county (Northamptonshire) they are giving non fire arms officers tasers now. Having armed officers would not have prevented this crime anyway.

My country has even less gun crime than the UK and we have every officer armed anyway. Also they have batons, tazers, oc-spray & the works.

[CMNot]

The idea of all coppers being armed terrifies me.

[Thom]

I believe in a survey of police officers, the vast majority voted to say that they didn't want firearms for regular police work. With the kind of work they do, and the amount of gun crime that the UK has, I think this is the right approach.

[Kippari]

Wuz it theses fellas?

http://www.youtube.com/v/RiW5YHYlLsop-)

[Kaapeli]

I believe in a survey of police officers, the vast majority voted to say that they didn't want firearms for regular police work. With the kind of work they do, and the amount of gun crime that the UK has, I think this is the right approach.

Obviously it's their choice and I for one respect that.
Personally I wouldn't do that kind of work without firearms...

[Limeyfellow]

Obviously it's their choice and I for one respect that.
Personally I wouldn't do that kind of work without firearms...

I guess they do have more baton training than most police forces do which is always helpful and they are allowed pepper or cs spray nowadays.

There are also specialists in the armed response teams that have far more firepower including the likes of G36s and sniper rifles, which they more than once won international sniping competition against militaries from around the world.

[Kaapeli]

I just have to add this; having a gun doesn't necessarily mean using it.
Every police officer here is armed but there are only around 5 cases of firearm dischargers and this includes finishing off animals (a nation of 5,3 million people).
Also we have the largest % of registered firearms in the western world.
So having a gun doesn't necessarily mean using it.

[PaulClift]

I just have to add this; having a gun doesn't necessarily mean using it.
Every police officer here is armed but there are only around 5 cases of firearm dischargers and this includes finishing off animals (a nation of 5,3 million people).
Also we have the largest % of registered firearms in the western world.
So having a gun doesn't necessarily mean using it.

Happens alot here, my friends horse decided to escape, it was an ex race horse and it headed into town, we managed to get it back on lead rein and under control before an arv turned up, I would not of blamed them for shooting it, as an animal that size galloping into the town center could of been deadly.

Recently a bull escaped from a cattle market near me and somehow got into train station and was running up and down the platforms so they shot it.

[Kaapeli]

Happens alot here, my friends horse decided to escape, it was an ex race horse and it headed into town, we managed to get it back on lead rein and under control before an arv turned up, I would not of blamed them for shooting it, as an animal that size galloping into the town center could of been deadly.

Recently a bull escaped from a cattle market near me and somehow got into train station and was running up and down the platforms so they shot it.

Here there are around 200 car collisions with reindeers a year (plus other wildlife so propably double that)...
We had a loaded pistol to finish off animals aboard our APC's when we were training the north because animal collisions were so common.

[Springer]

Thats horrible.

[PaulClift]

Here there are around 200 car collisions with reindeers a year (plus other wildlife so propably double that)...
We had a loaded pistol to finish off animals aboard our APC's when we were training the north because animal collisions were so common.

My uncle sent us a picture taken from inside his car just after a moose collision near his place on Vancouver island, it just ran off apparently, the windscreen came off worse.

[martinexsquaddie]

I think the average copper in the uk could well get a handgun but theres no way in hell they'd get the same level of training as the arv guys but would be completely in the **** they used one.
once slit the throat of a deer that had been hit by a car as we'd been flagged down by a motorist (did'nt have any live ammo and i doubt 5.56fmj at point blank is very safe)
motorist was horrified I guess she thought we were going to do first aid on it :)
oppo being a game keeper got the guts out and we rocked up at the cookhouse
with bambi:)

[miguelencanarias]

Oh no! You ate Bambi! Momie, momie! the bad man ate Bambi!

[Waterman]

Too bad for that family, but crimes like this will happen in the UK, because the likelyhood of an armed citizen in nil.

I typically carry. 10 guys is a lot to deal with, but a couple of well timed shots can break open a hole for you to escape.

But at the same time, your vehicle makes a great weapon too. If you know how to drive defensively, and how to use the vehicle as a weapon, you can get yourself out of many of these types of situations. Think about it sometime, just avoid using the front end when you ram things, and you should stay running long enough to get away.

I would use the vehicle first, firearm second.

[Litti]

Too bad for that family, but crimes like this will happen in the UK, because the likelyhood of an armed citizen in nil. And the likelyhood of firearm related assaults in UK is much lower than in US, because of the tighter gun laws.

[Litti]

You´d have to be extremely foolish to try to provocate an armed gang when you are with your children. To risk their lives in such a situation is unacceptable.
And here are the statistics.

Murders (per 1000 people) :

USA : 0.042
UK : 0.014

Murders with firearms (per 1000 people)

USA : 0.028
UK : 0.001

Which makes it about 28 times less likely to die in a firearm related assault in UK. :roll:

[seva108]

You´d have to be extremely foolish to try to provocate an armed gang when you are with your children. To risk their lives in such a situation is unacceptable.
And here are the statistics.

Murders (per 1000 people) :

USA : 0.042
UK : 0.014

Murders with firearms (per 1000 people)

USA : 0.028
UK : 0.001

Which makes it about 28 times less likely to die in a firearm related assault in UK. :roll:


Yeah, I'm sure it matters what the murder weapon is, it's so much better to be stabbed to death.

The UK has fairly low murder rate, but its violent crime rate is scary high.

2005 numbers:

UK violent crime per 100,000: 3992.8
US violent crime per 100,000: 469.2

And the British Home Office doesn't even count violent crime committed against victims under 16 years of age, so the rate is undoubtedly much higher.

[martinexsquaddie]

yes but we have the "glorious tradition " of drunken fighting:(

[CMNot]

This is true, £2bn a year outlay for alcohol related injuries (feel free to speculate at the cause of injury, although a brisk walk around any town center at midnight on any Friday will reveal a good bit).

And with regards to gun and youth crime in the UK, the best reading time would be spent directed at Strain and Amplification theory respectively, and less at the media.

[Geezah]

And the likelyhood of firearm related assaults in UK is much lower than in US, because of the tighter gun laws.

Somewhat nieve, so there are lower firearm related assaults in the UK because of tighter gun laws that only the law abiding obey??????

OK, seen this arguement before..........it's called supply and demand!

[Litti]

More guns = more assaults with firearms, more murder. Proven by statistics.

When compared to UK, In USA it is 28 times more likely that some nutjob shoots you when you´re just minding your own business.

[NLANLA]

More guns = more assaults with firearms, more murder. Proven by statistics.

When compared to UK, In USA it is 28 times more likely that some nutjob shoots you when you´re just minding your own business.
Care to show us where you got those statistics ? I live in a rather well-off West-European country myself, where violent crime is probably even rarer than in the UK and where the general population holds the same view as you (that is, treating the few remaining responsible gun owners as gun nuts and criminals) and yet, our police forces are armed, too. And they may not always arrive on time, but when they do, I'd rather have them show up prepraed (and equipped) for the worst.

[Geezah]

More guns = more assaults with firearms, more murder. Proven by statistics.

Is that so, I'd be interested in seeing those stats that show that more firearms cause people to commit more assaults and murders?



When compared to UK, In USA it is 28 times more likely that some nutjob shoots you when you´re just minding your own business.

I really would be interested in seeing these stats you talk about......at the same time while providing them why not search through some of my old posts, you may find it interesting!

[Litti]

I suppose I have to go back to those websites again. One was from the Bureau of Justice statistics (USA) and I dont remember the other.

I´ll try to find some place where they have made comparisons with various countries.

edit : http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

[krasnayaarmiya]

Somewhat nieve, so there are lower firearm related assaults in the UK because of tighter gun laws that only the law abiding obey??????


YES. Ever lived in England or gone to school there? I have gone to school in London and Oakland, California. Big difference. Kids fight in both countries, but when I was in high school in Oakland, most fistfights were amongst girls, as boys tended to escalate towards lethal violence. At one point 80% of the gun crimes in Oakland involved guns sold from one gun store in San Leandro, Trader's Sports. I am actually a hypocrite, as I own a 12ga, but I believe in gun control. I would rather there were just far fewer firearms out there, not the hundreds of millions extant in the US. I don't own a gun because I am that worried about home invasion, though, but because I'm more concerned about heavily armed suburbanites who are going to pop off in a crisis (natural disaster or economic/political crisis), making it dangerous to traverse the land. If you think you need a concealed-carry weapon just to walk the streets as an average citizen, you're paranoid and don't know how to carry yourself. This is confusing-sounding to some gun advocates, I'm sure, but please be respectful, and we can discuss.
Concerning police with guns in England, there are cops that patrol Central London with G36's and thousand-dollar pistols. They are very alert-looking. I wouldn't be too worried. There are far-fewer weapons around, so less chance of lethality in confrontation amongst citizens. It makes a difference. Sure no one wants to get stabbed or get their ass whipped, but the finality of killing makes gun violence have its own dynamics. The FEAR of other armed citizens has a viral effect, and amps the paranoia, especially for those emotionally ill-equipped for cool-thinking, ie young people.

[NLANLA]

OK, I already found the flaw in your reasoning. "28 times more homicides by firearm" does NOT equal "28 times as likely to get shot while you're minding your own business". First of all: I bet you that most of those homicides happen within criminal circles (if you're engaged in whatever kind of criminal activity, your chances of getting shot are higher already, no matter where you live). Look at the countries at the top: places with lots of poverty (and I mean DIRT poor), drugs and political instability. Oh, and did I mention that the top 5 of the countries in your statistics have in fact stricter gun laws than the US ? I'd suggest you do look up geezah's posts.

[CMNot]

It is ironic that the easiest way to defend gun control is to use the states as an example.

If you took Canada as an example, not that far north of say some dirt hole like Detroit, it is a different story.

Oh the love of demographs.

[krasnayaarmiya]

It is ironic that the easiest way to defend gun control is to use the states as an example.

If you took Canada as an example, not that far north of say some dirt hole like Detroit, it is a different story.

Oh the love of demographs.

Hey, I like Detroit. Great nightlife, I kid you not.

[Geezah]

YES. Ever lived in England or gone to school there? I have gone to school in London and Oakland, California. Big difference. Kids fight in both countries, but when I was in high school in Oakland, most fistfights were amongst girls, as boys tended to escalate towards lethal violence. At one point 80% of the gun crimes in Oakland involved guns sold from one gun store in San Leandro, Trader's Sports. I am actually a hypocrite, as I own a 12ga, but I believe in gun control. I would rather there were just far fewer firearms out there, not the hundreds of millions extant in the US. I don't own a gun because I am that worried about home invasion, though, but because I'm more concerned about heavily armed suburbanites who are going to pop off in a crisis (natural disaster or economic/political crisis), making it dangerous to traverse the land. If you think you need a concealed-carry weapon just to walk the streets as an average citizen, you're paranoid and don't know how to carry yourself. This is confusing-sounding to some gun advocates, I'm sure, but please be respectful, and we can discuss.
Concerning police with guns in England, there are cops that patrol Central London with G36's and thousand-dollar pistols. They are very alert-looking. I wouldn't be too worried. There are far-fewer weapons around, so less chance of lethality in confrontation amongst citizens. It makes a difference. Sure no one wants to get stabbed or get their ass whipped, but the finality of killing makes gun violence have its own dynamics. The FEAR of other armed citizens has a viral effect, and amps the paranoia, especially for those emotionally ill-equipped for cool-thinking, ie young people.

You haven't been arond long enough to realize I'm an Ex-Pat. Born and raised in West London, moved here when I was 26, that was 11yrs ago.
When I first moved here I was a firm believer in Gun Control, as I believed that guns kill people, took some reading and opening my eyes and I soon realized that what I had been breast fed in the UK was totally wrong. The crazy thing is I knew people back in the UK that could readily place their hands on firearms if needed. So to answer your question, YES.

[krasnayaarmiya]

You haven't been arond long enough to realize I'm an Ex-Pat. Born and raised in West London, moved here when I was 26, that was 11yrs ago.
When I first moved here I was a firm believer in Gun Control, as I believed that gund kill people, took some reading and opening my eyes and I soon realized that what I had been breast fed int he UK was totally wrong. The crazy thing is I knew people back in the UK that could readily place their hands on firearms if needed. So to answer your question, YES.

gobsmacked, i am- what are the fekkin odds, eh?
Well, ever been to school in Oakland lol?

[Geezah]

More guns = more assaults with firearms, more murder. Proven by statistics.

When compared to UK, In USA it is 28 times more likely that some nutjob shoots you when you´re just minding your own business.

Let's go back to this arguement of yours, while extremely you claim stats to back up your arguement. There are 80 million law abiding firearm owners int he USA, 4 million of those are members of the NRA. I think there are roughly 260 million legally held firearms, of which 13 I own.
Now this is where it gets fun.

After 1996, less than 10% of nonfatal violent crimes involved firearm.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/percentfirearm.gif
Note: The violent crimes included are rape and ****** assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault
Link (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/percentfirearm.htm)


Nonfatal firearm crime rates have been declining since 1994, before increasing in 2005.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalrt.gif

Link (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalrt.htm)



Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/ncsucr2.gif
Link (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm)

So, so far we have seen a slight increase in 05 of firearm crime, to the levels experienced in 01, but nowhere near as bad as the early to mid 90s. Then you put that together with violent crime overall which has seen a dramatic decrease, so how can you compare the US to the UK when out violent crime in the US is dropping but the UK is seeing an increase?

Can the same be said of the Uk with their increase in violent crime?

[krasnayaarmiya]

This is semantics. No, guns don't kill people. But they definitely facilitate killing. I mean, if looks could kill, we'd all be smoked, but we're not trying to outlaw dodgy body language, and for good reason. It's not the motivation to kill, but the facility that a surfeit of firearms generate. No, this does not apply to all societies, but it does apply to ours. We cannot compare ourselves to the Finns nor the Swiss in this regard. The US doesn't have a viable social welfare net, and we are more competitive with each other. We don't have the history nor the relative homogeny of these countries. For instance, the US has a more divisive, comparitively recent history of racial slavery, and the entailing level of violence needed to decide that institution's fate. It had a war of annhilation against its native people not 140 years ago. It also had a recent frontier with a pristine population of mega-fauna that required the carrying of firearms for defense (bears, wolves, Scots-Irishmen). If the UK legalized firearms, I guarantee kids would be getting blasted down the off-license in Hackney and Wembley like never before. There is a difference between the results of the violence in the UK and the US. Happy-slapping is not the same as splitting wigs.

[snoddy]

Wuz it theses fellas?

http://www.youtube.com/v/RiW5YHYlLsop-)

thats frickin wicked funny....

[krasnayaarmiya]

CO19 ARVs currently carry the Glock 17 do they go for $1000 a time?

Oh, I mistakenly assumed they had HK P2000's or Sig P220's, seeing as they reached into the pockets for the G36's. The Glock is fine, but those other pistols are just that much more reliable and precise. Smart alec.

[PaulClift]

More guns = more assaults with firearms, more murder. Proven by statistics.

When compared to UK, In USA it is 28 times more likely that some nutjob shoots you when you´re just minding your own business.

A nut job with a gun, is not going to not be a nut job who murders when theres no guns available, they will just find something else to murder you with.

[krasnayaarmiya]

A nut job with a gun, is not going to not be a nut job who murders when theres no guns available, they will just find something else to murder you with.

So all those industrialized countries that have much lower homicide rates than the US and who happen to also have less gun ownership just happen to also have fewer mentally ill people? Isn't that the logic of what you just said?

[seva108]

So all those industrialized countries that have much lower homicide rates than the US and who happen to also have less gun ownership just happen to also have fewer mentally ill people? Isn't that the logic of what you just said?

Hate to bring this up, but when murders committed by blacks are removed, the US has a lower murder rate than France or Germany. The problem of murder in the US is largely one of blacks in the inner city.

States with very high rates of gun ownership like Wyoming or Vermont have very low murder rates, while cities where guns are illegal like Philadelphia or Washington, D.C. have horrifically high rates. Clearly the problem of murder with guns is not a problem with guns, but a problem with people.

[Alael]

Here are the compared murder rate ( per 1000 people) between different countries
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

how can we explain that Switzerland where the gun law is as free as in the USA and where all the soldiers bring at home there full auto military issued assault rifle and ammos has a so low rate of murder?

Guns cannot explain the rate of murders.

Some french journalists pointed that in the USA there are more people in jail than in France... (trying to suggest that the US justice and criminal policies are not as good to prevent criminality, and above all that the US gun laws make more criminals, but they never mentionned that in France 30% only of the crime are not resolved and for the case which are resolved, 30% of the criminals who are judged will never be fully accomplished the ammount of jail time they are sentenced, some of them will not even go to jail (for the lowest felonies).
Lot of anti-arms trust M. MOORE who presented a comparision between murder by firearms in the USA to others countries, he did not mentionned the other number of murders for the others countries, and then he willingly suggest a false idea that criminality in the USA in much far from the others countries (europeans countries)

[Geezah]

Oh, I mistakenly assumed they had HK P2000's or Sig P220's, seeing as they reached into the pockets for the G36's. The Glock is fine, but those other pistols are just that much more reliable and precise. Smart alec.

HK P2000s and SIG 220s are between $500-$800, anything $1,000 up, I'm looking at a custom 1911.

[Geezah]

This is semantics. No, guns don't kill people. But they definitely facilitate killing. I mean, if looks could kill, we'd all be smoked, but we're not trying to outlaw dodgy body language, and for good reason. It's not the motivation to kill, but the facility that a surfeit of firearms generate.

Riddle me this Batman, how do you account for the increase in legally held firearms, the increase in the numbers of the law abidng that carry firearms concealed and a decrease in violent crime across the board?
After all you are still trying to blame the firearm for the actions of those that choose to break the law. The problem is not th etool but the intent, if someone has made a decision to go out and rape, rob or murder someone the firearm is not going to be the deciding factor.



No, this does not apply to all societies, but it does apply to ours. We cannot compare ourselves to the Finns nor the Swiss in this regard. The US doesn't have a viable social welfare net, and we are more competitive with each other. We don't have the history nor the relative homogeny of these countries. For instance, the US has a more divisive, comparitively recent history of racial slavery, and the entailing level of violence needed to decide that institution's fate. It had a war of annhilation against its native people not 140 years ago. It also had a recent frontier with a pristine population of mega-fauna that required the carrying of firearms for defense (bears, wolves, Scots-Irishmen).

Blah blah blah blah, then please explain why there is a decrease in violent crime overall????



If the UK legalized firearms, I guarantee kids would be getting blasted down the off-license in Hackney and Wembley like never before. There is a difference between the results of the violence in the UK and the US. Happy-slapping is not the same as splitting wigs.

You mean if they reversed the laws that were put in place to remove firearms fromt he hands of the law abiding???? After all the laws in place have had little to no affect on those that break the law???
It is a nice thought but extremely flawed, and if you went back 100yrs it was not uncommon for the common man to go down to the Post Office get a firearm license and there you be, and amazing enough firearm crime was pretty non-existant at that point because mroe firearms means less firearm crime!

Here's a link for you to sift through, and please do not disregard the information presented by the British Government as complete poo..

Firearm Controls in Britain Part 1 The History of Firearms Controls in Great Britain (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm)

[krasnayaarmiya]

Hate to bring this up, but when murders committed by blacks are removed, the US has a lower murder rate than France or Germany. The problem of murder in the US is largely one of blacks in the inner city.

States with very high rates of gun ownership like Wyoming or Vermont have very low murder rates, while cities where guns are illegal like Philadelphia or Washington, D.C. have horrifically high rates. Clearly the problem of murder with guns is not a problem with guns, but a problem with people.

You're so much better than them.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Riddle me this Batman


Blah blah blah blah, then please explain why there is a decrease in violent crime overall????



complete poo..

Firearm Controls in Britain Part 1 The History of Firearms Controls in Great Britain (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm)

Civil discourse must have ceased. Hope your 13 guns keep you warm at night.:)

[krasnayaarmiya]

Never having purchased any firearms I have no idea how much they cost so was a genuine question

to my knowladge at least one unit in london trialed the sigpro didn't think it was right for there needs and stuck with the Glock

Oh, my bad.

[Kant]

I wish I had a gun.
I'd shoot you all in the face.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Here are the compared murder rate ( per 1000 people) between different countries
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

how can we explain that Switzerland where the gun law is as free as in the USA and where all the soldiers bring at home there full auto military issued assault rifle and ammos has a so low rate of murder?

Switzerland actually has one of the highest rates of domestic shootings in Europe (because of the presence in the home of military issue weapons). Just look at that former skiing champion murdered by her husband with his army issue pistol not so long ago.

[seva108]

You're so much better than them.

Hmmm, a brainless response....

Oh well.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Hmmm, a brainless response....

Oh well.

When you cast aspersions, ignoring this society's history of conditioning black people using violence (that whole racial slavery thing, followed by Jim Crow and debt-slavery, enforced by people like the Klan), insinuating that blacks corner the market on violence while exhibiting an avatar of a B-1 that is carpet-bombing, then you don't deserve much more than a brainless response. We have already wasted too much energy on you.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Didn't know that its not something that gets reported (in the UK press) to my knowledge thats always heldup as a shining example of how gun ownership works

They have occasional 'Hungerford' type spree shootings there as well (with military issue weapons).

[krasnayaarmiya]

They have occasional 'Hungerford' type spree shootings there as well (with military issue weapons).

Isn't also true that alot of their white cheeses get shot up with 7.62x54 fmj?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Isn't also true that alot of their white cheeses get shot up with 7.62x54 fmj?

It sure looks like it :)

[seva108]

When you cast aspersions, ignoring this society's history of conditioning black people using violence (that whole racial slavery thing, followed by Jim Crow and debt-slavery, enforced by people like the Klan), insinuating that blacks corner the market on violence while exhibiting an avatar of a B-1 that is carpet-bombing, then you don't deserve much more than a brainless response. We have already wasted too much energy on you.

Cast aspersions -- LOL. What the **** does my avatar have to do with anything?

The debate was about whether or not guns are the determining factor in murder. What you are arguing above is that in fact that guns are not -- in short, a long history of abuse and conditioning has made black people in America ****e to violence, which explains the high black murder rates in US cities. You are giving historical and cultural reasons why certain people commit murder. Notice you didn't reference firearms above? You do realize you just made the same argument that I'm making?

DUH.

[krasnayaarmiya]

Cast aspersions -- LOL. What the **** does my avatar have to do with anything?

Violence.



The debate was about whether or not guns are the determining factor in murder. What you are arguing above is that in fact that guns are not -- in short, a long history of abuse and conditioning has made black people in America ****e to violence, which explains the high black murder rates in US cities. You are giving historical and cultural reasons why certain people commit murder. Notice you didn't reference firearms above? You do realize you just made the same argument that I'm making?

DUH.


Since you burned a few BTU's conjuring up those words, I'll dignify you with a response. Notice I referenced firearms in earlier posts, but I used the word "facility", which is one of the English words for "ease". DUH. The ready availability of guns in the United States makes it easier for people to kill other people. It is easier to kill someone with a firearm than it is to kill someone with a bludgeon or with an edged weapon. The ease with which Americans kill each other compounds the problems that people have and creates more fear, which compounds the problems that people have, ad infinitum. You think if we have another Great Depression that Americans will be nearly as well-behaved as we were in the 1930's? No ****ing way. We'd make the internecine violence in Bosnia and Iraq look like old news.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

The debate was about whether or not guns are the determining factor in murder. What you are arguing above is that in fact that guns are not -- in short, a long history of abuse and conditioning has made black people in America ****e to violence, which explains the high black murder rates in US cities. You are giving historical and cultural reasons why certain people commit murder. Notice you didn't reference firearms above? You do realize you just made the same argument that I'm making?

DUH.



"Two youths, aged 18 and 14, have been arrested on suspicion of murdering an 11-year-old boy who in a pub car park.

Rhys Jones died after being shot in the neck as he played football outside the Fir Tree pub in Croxteth, Liverpool.

Merseyside Police said Rhys, who lived locally with his mother, father and 17-year-old brother, was gunned down by a teenager who rode past on a BMX bike.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith expressed her condolences to the boy's family while Merseyside Police Assistant Chief Constable Simon Byrne challenged the community to help find the killer.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070823/tuk-two-held-over-liverpool-shooting-dba1618_2.html

If the 11-year old had only been packing heat to protect himself, none of this would have happened.

:roll:

RIP to the kid murdered with weapons that shouldn't have been on the street.

More guns = more dead people.

[krasnayaarmiya]

http://www.eosmith.com/images/Gallery/Little%20Girl%20With%20Machine%20Gun.jpg


If the 11-year old had only been packing heat, none of this would have happened. RIP to the kid murdered with weapons that shouldn't have been on the street.

I just punched in the words "child machine gun NRA" in Google Images-- Browning .30cal yeah, her parents are probably American...psYchos!

[MoFo]

This whole deal with guncrime in the UK is what we shouldn't be worried about, Recently there has been a horrifying increase in Knife Culture and feral youths who have no hesitation in using them..

Thats what our pussy footing government and uniformed services need to focus on, Im all for tougher punishment and using any means to get things fixed. But unfortunately we all know theres no way anyone would even consider it for reasons totally unreasonable.

[krasnayaarmiya]

This whole deal with guncrime in the UK is what we shouldn't be worried about,


count your blessings

[MoFo]

I dont need to, I live in a small Village far away from all those inner city streets ;)

[krasnayaarmiya]

Hate to bring this up,

Sounds like you relish the idea of bringing it up.


but when murders committed by blacks are removed, the US has a lower murder rate than France or Germany. The problem of murder in the US is largely one of blacks in the inner city.

How many blacks go on shooting sprees in their schools, post offices, McDonalds,etc.? How many serial killers are black? Your demographics do not paint a complete picture.

[krasnayaarmiya]

I dont need to, I live in a small Village far away from all those inner city streets ;)







In America, the country boys bang, too. Britain also has tight gun regulations supported by isolated geography and relatively competent customs controls.

[seva108]

Violence.



Since you burned a few BTU's conjuring up those words, I'll dignify you with a response. Notice I referenced firearms in earlier posts, but I used the word "facility", which is one of the English words for "ease". DUH. The ready availability of guns in the United States makes it easier for people to kill other people. It is easier to kill someone with a firearm than it is to kill someone with a bludgeon or with an edged weapon. The ease with which Americans kill each other compounds the problems that people have and creates more fear, which compounds the problems that people have, ad infinitum. You think if we have another Great Depression that Americans will be nearly as well-behaved as we were in the 1930's? No ****ing way. We'd make the internecine violence in Bosnia and Iraq look like old news.


Focusing on an implement of action is to ignore the tougher problem, which is why a society becomes violent to the point where people commonly murder each other. Did you ever stop to ask yourself why so many more people kill each other now than 50 years ago? My Dad used to take a .22 to school in Detroit for PE class! Now, if some kid DRAWS a picture of gun, he'll be suspended. The problem isn't guns, the problem is that so many in our society are now willing to kill each other.

It's the path of the intellectually lazy, and those who have no understanding of personal freedom, to call for the banning of a tool, rather than facing the difficult search for the cause of wanton violence.

[seva108]

Sounds like you relish the idea of bringing it up.



How many blacks go on shooting sprees in their schools, post offices, McDonalds,etc.? How many serial killers are black? Your demographics do not paint a complete picture.

How does it sound like I relish it? I'm trying to wake your sleeping ass up to a concept. It's a FACT that without black murders, the US murder rate would decline precipitously. It's a FACT that most black murders occur with firearms, in cities where firearms are illegal. It's a fact that states with high rates of gun ownership and CCW have low murder rates. The purpose is to show you that prevalence of guns does not equal murder. Prevalence of people willing to commit murder equals murder.

That doesn't mean white people don't commit murders. Jesus Christ.

[seva108]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20070823/tuk-two-held-over-liverpool-shooting-dba1618_2.html

If the 11-year old had only been packing heat to protect himself, none of this would have happened.

:roll:

RIP to the kid murdered with weapons that shouldn't have been on the street.

More guns = more dead people.


Why don't you ask yourself why this type of crime happens in England? There is a problem with a society that breeds the type of 'youths' that would do this.

Nope, let's just ban guns and hope it goes away. Whoops, look like they're killing each other with knives! Let's ban knives and hope it goes away. What's next, banning rocks when they start bashing each other's heads in?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

According to provisional Home Office figures, there were 58 firearms-related homicides in 2006-07 compared with 49 in the previous year. That is an increase of 18% in just one year. If we include airguns, the number of homicides in 2006-07 rises to 61. There were 413 firearms incidents that resulted in serious injury - more than one a day.

But at the same time, the trend in gun crime overall has been going down.

Overall firearms offences fell 13% in 2006-07 to 9,608 incidents - the lowest number in seven years. Firearms robberies, handgun offences and serious injuries from firearms are also down.

Just over half of all firearms offences occurred in just three major forces - the Metropolitan Police in London, Greater Manchester and West Midlands.

Drilling down into the national figures up to the end of April 2006 shows that West Midlands, Merseyside and Greater Manchester Police have all experienced drops in firearms offences whereas London has seen an increase.

The Metropolitan Police says that in the 12 months to July 2007 it saw a 3.5% rise in firearms offences - up from 3,485 to 3,607 incidents.

While there has been substantial concern in recent years over the use of imitation weapons in gang incidents - not least because some can be converted into real guns - the figures show there has also been a decrease here.

Further detailed research on firearms crimes on a regional basis will be published in 2008.

What all of this means is that we cannot draw any simple nationwide conclusions about gun crime. What we can say with certainty is that gun crime is a problem that remains closely focused in some cities that have witnessed some terrible deaths.

The figures do not show that gun crime is prolific or widespread in England and Wales.

Full text
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

[krasnayaarmiya]

How does it sound like I relish it? I'm trying to wake your sleeping ass up to a concept. It's a FACT that without black murders, the US murder rate would decline precipitously. It's a FACT that most black murders occur with firearms, in cities where firearms are illegal. It's a fact that states with high rates of gun ownership and CCW have low murder rates. The purpose is to show you that prevalence of guns does not equal murder. Prevalence of people willing to commit murder equals murder.

That doesn't mean white people don't commit murders. Jesus Christ.

What is your motivation of your non-sequiter that black people murder in higher numbers, proportionately? They are American, and therefore it's a national problem. Black Americans have had ancestors here longer than most white people, by the way. England is not off the hook either, as they coerced a quarter of the globe and used their resources freely. It's not a surprise that Jamaicans and Nigerians move to the UK, as their labor built the Empire that provided British society with the level of prosperity and security they enjoy today. I like how you associate, by transitivity, the ideas of criminality with black people. So, if the black population declined, so would the black murders, huh? Unless you are suggesting that it should decline, then we as Americans should own this as a society instead of parsing out the blame. Would you address the social problems of black Americans with the tactics of marginalization used in your post? That would work out poorly. In FACT, it has.

In the 1950's, the American murder rate was higher than elsewhere in the industrialized world, and was at least half of the current murder rate per 100,000 individuals. In what cities are firearms "illegal"?? Just because there are sanctions attached to possession of 30-round-mag adjustable-stock flash-suppressed automatic weapons does NOT mean that they are illegal. To say so otherwise is intellectual dishonesty. If by saying "guns are illegal" in these cities, you mean that they are illegally owned, it's still a blanket assumption that a large portion of these black murders are not committed with registered firearms. Most of the firearms in Oakland for the 80's and 90's came originally from ONE STORE, Trader's Sports. The feds were trying since 1991 to shut them down, but they only lost their FFL less than 1 year ago. They are still open for business and they sell ammo. It's not like the guns were coming in clandestine crates in the Port of Oakland.

You say the implements of destruction are not the problem. Okay, how do you feel about Iran and North Korea owning nukes? If you say they should not because they are not good global citizens, then you could also argue we had no business intervening in N. Korea's civil war, nor did we have business deposing Iran's Mosadeqh in 1953, and that we could be seen as the bad global citizen. Maybe you believe everyone should own nukes. Would the "tools" still be inconsequential? The consideration of 260,000,000 firearms in our country is a microcosm of this Matually Assured Destruction. Sure, we're rich and fat now and seem secure for our sheer inertia, but a real estate decline + Katrina-sized disaster + one more financial/geological/political calamity, and we would be in an economic depression. North America would, and I argue WILL, descend into the Dark Ages, rent asunder by division enabled by "tools" of destruction. "Your shiny future is a sharpened stick"
but it's cool, my countrymen, just have another beer, watch a ****, and go back to sleep- we'll go plinking in the morning

[krasnayaarmiya]

According to provisional Home Office figures, there were 58 firearms-related homicides in 2006-07 compared with 49 in the previous year. That is an increase of 18% in just one year. If we include airguns, the number of homicides in 2006-07 rises to 61. There were 413 firearms incidents that resulted in serious injury - more than one a day.

We have this many murders in half a year in my town of 400,000.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

We have this many murders in half a year in my town of 400,000.

The UK population is about 60 million to put that into perspective.

Of course that bit of perspective won't stop all the ex-pat plastic Brit 'merchants of doom' preaching to us that we're on the brink of anarchy all the time :roll:

[seva108]

What is your motivation of your non-sequiter that black people murder in higher numbers, proportionately?

Dude, are you paying attention?
The purpose is to show you that prevalence of guns does not equal murder. Prevalence of people willing to commit murder equals murder.


They are American, and therefore it's a national problem.
Don't agree. First, the problem can't get addressed unless you are allowed to bring it up, and solve it in its context. Your hysterical reaction to my using black murder rate as an example is indicative of the near impossibility of speaking frankly and openly in a PC world, to the detriment of actually fixing things.

Taking the AK-47 away from some rancher in Wyoming has nothing to do with and will not in any way solve Detroit's murder rate. 'Assault Weapons Ban's feel good to feeble-minded socialists, but do nothing to prevent crime.

Detroit's murder problem needs to be solved locally, by the people living there. Like Detroit, most American inner cities have chosen to deal with the problem of killing and violence in a lazy and freedom-crushing way; that is, by severely limiting the ability of a law abiding citizen to arm and defend himself. Oh, and frickin blaming STORES for their murder problems. They are too lazy and too bound by Orwellian 'newspeak' to even voice the problem, let alone create a reasoned action plan to address it. Of course, failed outcomes are the rule, rather than the exception.


n what cities are firearms "illegal"?? Just because there are sanctions attached to possession of 30-round-mag adjustable-stock flash-suppressed automatic weapons does NOT mean that they are illegal. To say so otherwise is intellectual dishonesty. If by saying "guns are illegal" in these cities, you mean that they are illegally owned, it's still a blanket assumption that a large portion of these black murders are not committed with registered firearms. Okay, how about: The ability to own and use a firearm for a law-abiding citizen is severly limited.


Most of the firearms in Oakland for the 80's and 90's came originally from ONE STORE, Trader's Sports. The feds were trying since 1991 to shut them down, but they only lost their FFL less than 1 year ago. They are still open for business and they sell ammo. It's not like the guns were coming in clandestine crates in the Port of Oakland. Your mind is stuck in a rut. You're blaming a STORE for the problem of violent murderers in Oakland killing each other. There are gun stores all over Montana, how come people don't kill each other like they do in Oakland?


You say the implements of destruction are not the problem. Okay, how do you feel about Iran and North Korea owning nukes? If you say they should not because they are not good global citizens, then you could also argue we had no business intervening in N. Korea's civil war, nor did we have business deposing Iran's Mosadeqh in 1953, and that we could be seen as the bad global citizen. Maybe you believe everyone should own nukes. Would the "tools" still be inconsequential? The US has a constitution that states that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This amendment was considered by the founders to be the ultimate guarantor of the freedom of Americans against tyranny.

However, I think it fallacious to consider nation-states run by megalomaniac dictators who have demonstrated horrific abuses of power on their own people as deserving of the same freedoms as American citizens. I'm fine with people who beat their wives or commit assaults not being allowed to own firearms. Similarly, I'm fine with ****ed up assholes that abuse their own people not being allowed to own nukes.


The consideration of 260,000,000 firearms in our country is a microcosm of this Matually Assured Destruction. Sure, we're rich and fat now and seem secure for our sheer inertia, but a real estate decline + Katrina-sized disaster + one more financial/geological/political calamity, and we would be in an economic depression. North America would, and I argue WILL, descend into the Dark Ages, rent asunder by division enabled by "tools" of destruction. "Your shiny future is a sharpened stick"
but it's cool, my countrymen, just have another beer, watch a ****, and go back to sleep- we'll go plinking in the morningOk, step away fromthe computer screen slowly. Just kidding.

But seriously, you've been hanging out with the wrong people. There is still an America (a bit away from Oakland) composed of very hard-working, moral people, who are completely capable of respecting their fellow man, and working for every single thing they get. These people are the most charitable people on earth (Americans give more in charity than any other nation), and don't need government nannying them. They'll be fine come hell or high water. I wouldn't want to be in Oakland if/when the scenario you describe occurs, though.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

feeble-minded socialists, but do nothing to prevent crime.I find it is surprising that you have socialists in America never mind feeble minded socialists.

[BigBaribal]

Basically, Great Britain is finished!

http://www.pressdispensary.co.uk/feed/991294.php


He adds: "Ironically, the main reason for these people leaving the UK is the over-stretching of services caused by inbound immigration to the UK. We are aware of the issue of so-called ‘white flight’ from certain inner city areas to the suburbs but now people are increasingly seeking a better standard of living offered by other countries.

[BigBaribal]

Yes, really finished!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=475875&in_page_id=1770

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23409386-details/196,000%20out,%20574,000%20in:%20Record%20numbers%20leaving%20Britain%20for%20new%20life%20abroad%20-%20as%20immigration%20to%20UK%20soars/article.do?expand=true#StartComments


Comments for these articles are especially interesting.

[BigBaribal]

Finished!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/24/npark124.xml

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=477149&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6963569.stm

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Couple-suffer-brutal-attack.3147405.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/6963480.stm

[BigBaribal]

By the way, look at this Orwell's novlang:


"Here in Lancashire, we think it is important not to negatively stereotype all of our young people when this kind of incident occurs."


... which means, in real language, that the killers are non-white minorities and that this crime is also an hate crime. But this will never be said in the "diversity dictature" that Great Britain has become.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/24/npark124.xml

[Geezah]

http://www.eosmith.com/images/Gallery/Little%20Girl%20With%20Machine%20Gun.jpg

.

I just punched in the words "child machine gun NRA" in Google Images-- Browning .30cal yeah, her parents are probably American...psYchos!

So what, are you inplying that she would grow up with a healthy respect for firearms and what they can do, or that she will end up going on a spree???

Now unlike the scrots int eh UK that shot that 11yr old, they cannot say they grew up around responsible firearm owners and the only experiences they have is watching the likes of 50Cent and other crappers!

[Geezah]

In America, the country boys bang, too. Britain also has tight gun regulations supported by isolated geography and relatively competent customs controls.

Care to share your experiences?

[Geezah]

The UK population is about 60 million to put that into perspective.

Of course that bit of perspective won't stop all the ex-pat plastic Brit 'merchants of doom' preaching to us that we're on the brink of anarchy all the time :roll:

Closer than us, considering you have far greater surveilance on the public(1 camera for every 14 people), gun laws that only stop or heavily estrict the law abiding from gaining access to firearms and a Government that plays with numbers to give the impression that crime is not that bad.

So from your article from the BBC, the slight decrease in violent firearms offences is nothing to sing about considering that over here despite a very slight increase last year we are still way lower than the levels of firearm crime that was experienced in the 70s. And over here the numbers of legal firearm owners has grown along with the number of legallly held firearms!

[Friendofall]

A populace that grew up around firearms and have been taught the responsible use and care of firearms is much less likely to have gun problems in the area I live a large majority of the populace is armed but we have very very little in the way of gun violence because they are responsible riflemen and marksmen who grew up around and know guns very well. The gun is a tool that like any tool can serve both good and bad the problem is not the tool but the people in the society in which the violence occurs.

[Geezah]

A populace that grew up around firearms and have been taught the responsible use and care of firearms is much less likely to have gun problems in the area I live a large majority of the populace is armed but we have very very little in the way of gun violence because they are responsible riflemen and marksmen who grew up around and know guns very well. The gun is a tool that like any tool can serve both good and bad the problem is not the tool but the people in the society in which the violence occurs.

To add to this, when the UK was allot more open towards firearm ownership, firearm crime was virtually non-existant then from 1920 onwards the Government decided to start restricting civilian ownership of arms, death by a thousand cuts. Only problem is, the people that should have been affected by this, well they didn't give a monkeys!

[Hollis]

To add to this, when the UK was allot more open towards firearm ownership, firearm crime was virtually non-existant then from 1920 onwards the Government decided to start restricting civilian ownership of arms, death by a thousand cuts. Only problem is, the people that should have been affected by this, well they didn't give a monkeys!


As Shakespeare would say, "This the Rub." Something the anti-gun advocates tend to hide their collective heads in the sand at cost of the suffering of the innocent from those who don't give a monkey's......

[a_very_ex_STAB]

To add to this, when the UK was allot more open towards firearm ownership, firearm crime was virtually non-existant then from 1920 onwards the Government decided to start restricting civilian ownership of arms, death by a thousand cuts. Only problem is, the people that should have been affected by this, well they didn't give a monkeys!

The reason there are more firearms related incidents in the UK now than in 1920 is primarily because of the international drugs trade not because of some kind of simplistic link to a reduction in legal firearms ownership.

And BTW you do realize don't you that only a minority of firearms related incidents (aka gun crime) in the UK actually involve real guns. The stats record incidents where police armed response is called (whether it is actually needed or not).

If i stuck a banana in my pocket and held up a bank pretending it was a hand gun it would be recorded as a firearms related incident because police armed response would be called to the scene.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The reason there are more firearms related incidents in the UK now than in 1920 is primarily because of the international drugs trade not because of some kind of simplistic link to a reduction in legal firearms ownership.A lot of people in the US who advocate CCW for the UK seem to forget that most of the people who are killed by gunfire would not be eligable for an FAC due to their involvement in crime.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

A lot of people in the US who advocate CCW for the UK seem to forget that most of the people who are killed by gunfire would not be eligable for an FAC due to their involvement in crime.

Precisely 123456

[Geezah]

A lot of people in the US who advocate CCW for the UK seem to forget that most of the people who are killed by gunfire would not be eligable for an FAC due to their involvement in crime.

So anyone that has been a victim of violent crime in the UK is somehow involved in crime themselves???

Hadn't looked at it like that, then I wonder how it is that I have a few links to people that have been shot that by the looks of it were completely in the wrong place at the wrong time!

[Geezah]

The reason there are more firearms related incidents in the UK now than in 1920 is primarily because of the international drugs trade not because of some kind of simplistic link to a reduction in legal firearms ownership.

I know, after all Opuim was never a problem was it?



And BTW you do realize don't you that only a minority of firearms related incidents (aka gun crime) in the UK actually involve real guns. The stats record incidents where police armed response is called (whether it is actually needed or not).

And they also record where people are actually shot don't they.



If i stuck a banana in my pocket and held up a bank pretending it was a hand gun it would be recorded as a firearms related incident because police armed response would be called to the scene.

And if I'm correct, that would apply over here in the sense that robbing a bank with a banana implying it's a firearm would be treated exactly the same as if you were armed.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I know, after all Opuim was never a problem was it?


It used to be LEGAL in all kinds of products in highly pharmacologically active concentrations in the UK. Because it was legal it wasn't causing the same problems associated with illegal drugs now - so what's your point?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

So anyone that has been a victim of violent crime in the UK is somehow involved in crime themselves???

Hadn't looked at it like that, then I wonder how it is that I have a few links to people that have been shot that by the looks of it were completely in the wrong place at the wrong time!

Try reading what Bacillus said :roll:

[herman30]

The idea of all coppers being armed terrifies me.

The idea of having unarmed coppers terrifies me. That makes them free prey for bad guys. I would not want to work as policeman and not being able to defend me against any ill-willing hoodlom.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

The idea of having unarmed coppers terrifies me. That makes them free prey for bad guys. I would not want to work as policeman and not being able to defend me against any ill-willing hoodlom.

Don't worry nobody's going to force you to join the police in Britain.:roll:

[BigBaribal]

I understand why I see more and more British people setting down in my area, Great Britain is simply going to the dogs! Yeah, diversity is a strenght :-))))))

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=478414&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&ct=5&expand=true#StartComments

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I understand why I see more and more British people setting down in my area, Great Britain is simply going to the dogs! Yeah, diversity is a strenght :-))))))

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=478414&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&ct=5&expand=true#StartComments

I see the nazi is back after a long absence.
And still quoting the Daily Heil like it's gospel (although it does give a clue in its article 'gangland slaughter')

:roll:

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Funeral for tourist stabbed in US

Lavern Ritch was stabbed during a holiday in the US
The funeral is to be held of a fitness instructor who was stabbed to death while on holiday in the United States.

Lavern Ritch, 37, from Penarth, had been visiting friends in New Jersey when he was killed by a single stab wound to the heart.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6969435.stm

[Geezah]

Funeral for tourist stabbed in US

Lavern Ritch was stabbed during a holiday in the US
The funeral is to be held of a fitness instructor who was stabbed to death while on holiday in the United States.

Lavern Ritch, 37, from Penarth, had been visiting friends in New Jersey when he was killed by a single stab wound to the heart.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6969435.stm

When have we ever said that violent crime does not exist in the US, we might say it's on the decline, which it has been steadily for 30+yrs, but never have we said it does not take place over here? Unlike yourself and a few others that claim the UK ain't that bad...............

[a_very_ex_STAB]

When have we ever said that violent crime does not exist in the US, we might say it's on the decline, which it has been steadily for 30+yrs, but never have we said it does not take place over here? Unlike yourself and a few others that claim the UK ain't that bad...............

The obvious subtext in all your postings is that the USA is in some way superior - which it is not.

28x more likely to be murdered with a firearm in the USA. No thanks.:)

As for saying the UK ain't that bad well it ain't perfect but it ain't that bad either.
Violent crime going down in the states well I guess it depends what is classed as violence different countries record things in different ways and it's probably more to do with locking up more people for longer (a policy I happen to agree with) than anything to do with your particular firearms obsession.

[artistoli]

Lets face it; violent crime in the UK really is getting out of hand. The fraudulent Soviet... sorry 'socialist' government fiddles the statistics to suit it's cause and makes us all think crime is falling. It reminds me of a trick that shops use; i.e. a few months before a sale they increase prices. This labour government have created more new crimes than any other; mostly ones that catch out the middle classes and so are easier to solve/catch. Thus, on their figures they can say that 'overall crime has fallen by 10%' even though, going by the 'crimes' that existed in 1997, when they came to power, crimes has most likely gone up by several hundred percent.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Lets face it; violent crime in the UK really is getting out of hand. The fraudulent Soviet... sorry 'socialist' government fiddles the statistics to suit it's cause and makes us all think crime is falling. It reminds me of a trick that shops use; i.e. a few months before a sale they increase prices. This labour government have created more new crimes than any other; mostly ones that catch out the middle classes and so are easier to solve/catch. Thus, on their figures they can say that 'overall crime has fallen by 10%' even though, going by the 'crimes' that existed in 1997, when they came to power, crimes has most likely gone up by several hundred percent.

Well they have actually changed the way crimes are recorded in a way that actually inflates the numbers and makes it look unfavourable to them.

Of course lots of people are getting hysterical and releasing their 'inner Daily Mail reader' as usual. :roll:

[hauptman]

The US has a constitution that states that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This amendment was considered by the founders to be the ultimate guarantor of the freedom of Americans against tyranny.


You could argue, that this amendment has already gotten obsolete by the introduction of a de facto standing army, since most State Constitutions refer to standing armies as "dangerous to liberty".

[Geezah]

You could argue, that this amendment has already gotten obsolete by the introduction of a de facto standing army, since most State Constitutions refer to standing armies as "dangerous to liberty".

Any chance you could prove that?

[Geezah]

The obvious subtext in all your postings is that the USA is in some way superior - which it is not.

28x more likely to be murdered with a firearm in the USA. No thanks.:)

As for saying the UK ain't that bad well it ain't perfect but it ain't that bad either.

Depends how you look at it, because it's allot worse than when I left in 96, but you can keep on living in denial fro a long as you want. I do however how you misinterpret my posts as anti British, but they are not, if anything I have a beef with the powers that be and what they are doing to the country.


Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/ncsucr2.gif


Nonfatal firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, before increasing in 2005. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.htm)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.gif


After peaking in 1993, the number of gun crimes reported to police declined and then stabilized at levels last seen in 1988. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.gif


After 1996, less than 10% of nonfatal violent crimes involved firearm. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/percentfirearm.htm)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/percentfirearm.gif



Violent crime going down in the states well I guess it depends what is classed as violence different countries record things in different ways and it's probably more to do with locking up more people for longer (a policy I happen to agree with) than anything to do with your particular firearms obsession.

Violent crime is violent crime, have a look around the website I provided a few links to, some very interesting info.
As far as any type of obsession, I would say I'm obessed with the lack of control on the part of the British Government to get crime under control........

[hauptman]

Any chance you could prove that?

The State Constitution of New Hampshire for example.
[Art.] 25. [Standing Armies.] Standing armies are dangerous to liberty, and ought not to be raised, or kept up, without the consent of the legislature. (http://www.nh.gov/constitution/billofrights.html)

Though the article says that it would be basically ok, if the legislature agrees with a standing army. But a permanent standing army would contradict article 24 in my opinion.

[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

However, there is no explicit ban on standing armies in the United States Constitution.

I personally think that gun bans are bad for liberty too and the State should trust law-abiding citizens and allow them owning guns.

But one question still remains: How does the 2nd Amendment relates to militias? "People" could possibly refer to members of a militia and people, who are willing to take up the defence of the State and so linking the right to keep and bear arms to the general stand-by of defending the State.
This is a question, which has to be solved by the Supreme Court and where I cannot participate.

btw, yes, I'm very interested in the US Constitution and the US legal system :)

[Geezah]

The State Constitution of New Hampshire for example.
[Art.] 25. [Standing Armies.] Standing armies are dangerous to liberty, and ought not to be raised, or kept up, without the consent of the legislature. (http://www.nh.gov/constitution/billofrights.html)

Though the article says that it would be basically ok, if the legislature agrees with a standing army. But a permanent standing army would contradict article 24 in my opinion.

[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

However, there is no explicit ban on standing armies in the United States Constitution.

I personally think that gun bans are bad for liberty too and the State should trust law-abiding citizens and allow them owning guns.

But one question still remains: How does the 2nd Amendment relates to militias? "People" could possibly refer to members of a militia and people, who are willing to take up the defence of the State and so linking the right to keep and bear arms to the general stand-by of defending the State.
This is a question, which has to be solved by the Supreme Court and where I cannot participate.

btw, yes, I'm very interested in the US Constitution and the US legal system :)

From the Bill of Rights,


Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Of course lots of people are getting hysterical and releasing their 'inner Daily Mail reader' as usual. :roll:Yeah kinda noticed Der Stürmer does seem to influence many of the posts on here from disgruntled ex pats and BNP voters.

[Geezah]

Yeah kinda noticed Der Stürmer does seem to influence many of the posts on here from disgruntled ex pats and BNP voters.

No need to worry, there will be no crime in the UK once they enforce the taking and recording of DNA samples for anyone that enters or resides in there.

[Mackey]

Anyone who believes the statistics on crime in the UK is a fool.

Police forces and the HO fudge the real figures to the extent that the truth will never be known.

The government never publishes figures showing the number of times each police force deploys its Armed Response Vehicles with firearms, even though a strict record is kept of these figures.

Ever wonder why?

Because

1) the true extent of the rise in crime involving weapons would become known.

2) the basic facts behinds these figures cannot be manipulated or distorted - it is a straightforward "yes or no" answer - they were either deployed with firearms, or they were not deployed with firearms.

And, I can tell you, the number of police firearms deployments are through the roof when compared to 10 years ago.

Instead, we are subjected to figures that come from the crime recording aspect of policing. Crime recording is very easy to manipulate, as it is a maze of confusion and quite often offences are downgraded/changed/dropped/reclassified altogether.

If you want a good read about modern UK policing, including how the crime statistics are deliberately manipulated, read "Wasting Police Time" by PC David Copperfield, available on Amazon. He tells it like it is.

[EsoognomEhT]

Missed you Geezah....

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

This labour government have created more new crimes than any other; mostly ones that catch out the middle classes What like Carousel fraud and the distribution of child ****? Oh give it up please.