Turkey, Armenia, Jews, and Israel... [Archive]

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JJC

08-23-2007, 02:57 AM

There is a debate coming up in U.S. congress on whether to officially recognize what some call it as the Armenian genocide in Turkey. For years the Armenian community in the U.S. and abroad has approached the Jewish organizations to help them recognize their genocicde because they feel the Jewish community through experience would be an honest broker in the debate. This week ADL an American based Jewish org has reversed its long stance and has recognized the Armenian genocide due to pressure from many critics, historians, and Jewish groups. Some people say that ADL's announcement will damage Israel-Turkey relations.

Turkey has sent an envoy to meet with ADL in hopes that ADL will reverse their announcement.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1187779137665&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

My opinion is that we should not ignore historic facts for any political motives. ADL was afraid to recognize Armenian genocide because they feared that they would damage Israel relations with Turkey and endanger Jewish community in Turkey. People have to stand up for the truth even when it's hard.

LRPV

08-23-2007, 03:11 AM

Agreed, being a passive bystander to genocide and justice is immoral. It is interesting that the Turks are travelling to meet the ADL, it demonstrates how sensitive this topic remains in that region.

I wonder if the Armenians want a simple official recognition or are looking for some kind of compensation?

gaijinsamurai

08-23-2007, 10:19 AM

Interesting, and well said, JJC.
I used to be married to an Armenian-American, and her parents said they always felt betrayed by the official stance of the Israeli Government and many Jewish-American groups, even though there are a lot of individual Jews, such as Norman Mailer, who have been outspoken in support of the Armenians.
I'm glad to hear that more people are willing to put politics aside in order to do what is morally right.

saladin

08-23-2007, 10:34 AM

Agreed, being a passive bystander to genocide and justice is immoral. I

It is nice to learn that you are doing everything you can to stop the genocide in Darfur to avoid being a passive bystander to genocide and justice. Did you also do everything you can for Tutsis in Rwanda?

Interesting, and well said, JJC.
I used to be married to an Armenian-American, and her parents said they always felt betrayed by the official stance of the Israeli Government and many Jewish-American groups, even though there are a lot of individual Jews, such as Norman Mailer, who have been outspoken in support of the Armenians.
I'm glad to hear that more people are willing to put politics aside in order to do what is morally right.

I'm not married to an Armenian American but I was born to a family whose town was terrorized by armenian gangs. Where is the morally right people for the rights of the villagers killed by Armenians on the rural roads? Where are the morally right people when they open mass Turkish graves for the victims killed by Armenians?

I guess they are watching Lawrence of Arabia of Midnight Express with their friends.

For all genocide claimers, put your money to where your mouth is and do some good once as oppose to repeating the same words again and again and again.

https://www.unicefusa.org/site/c.duLRI8O0H/b.64601/k.7E4B/Support_UNICEFs_Emergency_Relief_Programs__By_Program__Donate__US_Fund_for_UNICEF/apps/ka/sd/donor.asp

gaijinsamurai

08-23-2007, 11:49 AM

But of course we would get this type of response from someone like you, wouldn't we?

saladin

08-23-2007, 12:15 PM

But of course we would get this type of response from someone like you, wouldn't we?

Just out of curiosity, do you know me? Did you meet me? I'm sorry, I don't remember your name in my circle of acquaintances.

Vorian

08-23-2007, 01:33 PM

Here we go......sigh

4X4Driver

08-23-2007, 01:58 PM

My opinion is that we should not ignore historic facts for any political motives.

Actually it's the other way around. "A history" being created for the polotical motives ( see Treaty of Sevres and its faith)

Same Jewish lobby group (ADL) also says they're not backing the so-called genocide bill in the US senate.

from the same link above.
The ADL had said that a US Congressional resolution on the genocide issue would be a "counterproductive diversion and will not foster reconciliation between Turks and Armenians,

Seems like it's just a warning to Turkey's Erdogan govern't for getting closer to Iran lately...and of cource to apply pressure on Turkey for the things they don't want to do for the US (i.e recognizing the autonomous kurdish region and eventually an independent kurdish state at it's southern borders.)

MPO is that, they've been using this genocide card against the Turks to apply pressure on many areas, I hope this bill passes through this time so it can't be used as a "pressure card" any longer.

Hell..only in the US,in more than 30 states, they're teacing in the schools that the "Turks are cold blooded murderers" already, so the passing of this bill won't have much effect any longer as long as the Republic of Turkey doesn't recognize it.

Canadian2urk

08-23-2007, 08:50 PM

Have an open-mind please...

"The Armenian Problem and International Law"

-and-

"Armenian Question - The History"

http://www.e-konsolosluk.net/eLibrary/eLibrary_Main.aspx

http://www.armeniangenocidehoax.com/

Friendofall

08-23-2007, 09:19 PM

Canadian2urk

08-23-2007, 10:39 PM

^^ typical.

get your head out of your ass.

Friendofall

08-23-2007, 10:48 PM

^^ typical.

get your head out of your ass.

My beliefs my opions I have read and studied both sides of the argument and I stand where I stand and I am sorry that you must resort to belittling me to defend your racist and hateful views.

gaijinsamurai

08-24-2007, 01:57 AM

Don't let it bother you, Friendofall. You are correct to follow your convictions. Of course, there will be people who are ignorant ****s and will challlenge you with name-calling. It's happened to me too, plenty of times.

LRPV

08-24-2007, 02:27 AM

saladin, I missed the point of your post. I have a uniform in my wardrobe, but I'm not a policy maker. I can only offer moral support to the issues such as Darfur that you have raised. Unless you expect me to go on some wild one man jihad?

4X4Driver

08-24-2007, 03:26 AM

I was always taught that the Armenian genocide happened I believe it to be true the Turks did commit such acts of terror not only against the Armenians but the Kurds, Greeks, and all other people unfortunate enough to be under the yoke of Turkish opression at some point that is my opinon and I stand by it.

LOL! don't leave out the Martians and the endengared Pandas.

Of course, you're made to belive that due to the propaganda results leading the attemp to destroy the "barbaric Turks" in order to free the ancient Christian lands of Anatolia from them at the end of WWI (I see you didn't even bother to check up the Treaty of Sevres) Althogh the physically destruction campaign failed back than, the psychological campaign still continues up to day for political and financial gains.

Recently, kurds are the last one to be added to the "Turk attrocities list" in order to create a poster child from them in the region...again for the obvious reasons.(when it's a fact that they were the ones who mostly commited the attrocites against armenians due to the overlapping of the "promissed homelands" to each. (see Treaty of Sevres to undersatand...I insist)

Friendofall

08-24-2007, 03:41 AM

LOL! don't leave out the Martians and the endengared Pandas.

Of course, you're made to belive that due to the propaganda results leading the attemp to destroy the "barbaric Turks" in order to free the ancient Christian lands of Anatolia from them at the end of WWI (I see you didn't even bother to check up the Treaty of Sevres) Althogh the physically destruction campaign failed back than, the psychological campaign still continues up to day for political and financial gains.

Recently, kurds are the last one to be added to the "Turk attrocities list" in order to create a poster child from them in the region...again for the obvious reasons.(when it's a fact that they were the ones who mostly commited the attrocites against armenians due to the overlapping of the "promissed homelands" to each. (see Treaty of Sevres to undersatand...I insist)

But the treaty and the Turkish war of independence happened long after the massacre of the Armenian people the massacre took place as the Turks retreated south in 1915 the treaty was carved Turkey up what 1919 and the Turkish war of independence happened in 1921 if my memory serves me right though I may be wrong with my dates so how would the treaty tie in with the massacre that happened before it? Its not like the Allies made up the Turkish atrocities the Ottomans for years oppressed Armenians and other non-Turks heck the Turks still do that today

Zeev

08-24-2007, 04:09 AM

4X4Driver

08-24-2007, 04:27 AM

But the treaty and the Turkish war of independence happened long after the massacre of the Armenian people the massacre took place as the Turks retreated south in 1915 the treaty was carved Turkey up what 1919 and the Turkish war of independence happened in 1921 if my memory serves me right though I may be wrong with my dates so how would the treaty tie in with the massacre that happened before it? Its not like the Allies made up the Turkish atrocities the Ottomans for years oppressed Armenians and other non-Turks heck the Turks still do that today

No need to blame your memory for not knowing everything about the events. Blame is on the missing parts of these events in your history books(of course done deliberelty)

Attack on the Turks (Ottomans) started in 1915 (remember the Gallipoli?) When western powers were attacking them on the western(Gallipoli) front, Russians were doing the same on the N.Eastern front with the armenians in the region. Turks (Ottomans) won the Gallipoli campaign, but lost the war at the end. Allies occupy the land and brought in the Greeks to do the ethic cleansing of the Anatolia from the Turks. Russians in the N. Eastern front had already cleaned the area from the Turks with the help of armenians. Later, in Sevres treaty, we see those lands given to the armenians as a homeland. That's where the kurds comes into the picture. They were also promissed a homeland with the 1920 Treaty of Sevres, but they never like the idea that the parts in the north were included in the armenian homeland.

I'm sure you've never heard abut the details of the events from the other side. All you hear is "The Turks deniying the so called genocide", but did you ever wonder why?

Here is the shortened version of the part that's missing in your history books.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/ne15.html#Sakarya

Turkish atrocities the Ottomans for years oppressed Armenians and other non-Turks heck the Turks still do that today

I won't even comment to this flame bait, as I can see you've heard only one side of the story and ignorant of how armenians lived during the Ottoman rule for hudreds of years. Hell there was even high ranking officers in the Ottoman armies during the Gallipoli campaign and minister of the treasure was an armenian during same time...just an example of hundreds serving in decent places in the Ottoman structure.

Mr. Nielsen

08-24-2007, 04:36 AM

well, its a very difficult situation...

we (israel) have good relations with turkey (ok especially with turkish army) but we can't ignore that the armenian genocide is a reality that must be recognized...

what a dilema..
The turks will probably hit back by recognizing the etnic cleansing of the palestinians in 1948.

LRPV

08-24-2007, 04:41 AM

The turks will probably hit back by recognizing the etnic cleansing of the palestinians in 1948.

Oh goody...another flame bait by the erudite Nielson. Keep it on track you wally. Your anti-Israeli bias is well recorded. You are free to believe as you wish, but why try to ruin a thread that is already sensitive enough? Pity DW58 didn't introduce himself to you.

4X4Driver

08-24-2007, 04:59 AM

The turks will probably hit back by recognizing the etnic cleansing of the palestinians in 1948.

Nope. they'll never do such thing. In contrast to what many thinks, for Turks being muslim also, the general Turkish population (except the fundementalists of course) is not much symphatic to Pelstenians. Of course they do feel sad about the events happening in general (as much as the west feels)but Palestenian backstabbing of the Ottomans with the help of the British and the help given to PKK during its establishment years by the PLO(providing safe heaven and training in the Bakaa valley) has done some scars that Turks will never forget.

EDIT: I said "they'll never do such thing", but I have to admit that I don't know how the current Islamic ruling party would react...but remember, most Turks didn't vote for them.

Zeev

08-24-2007, 05:40 AM

The turks will probably hit back by recognizing the etnic cleansing of the palestinians in 1948.

great comment! very smart... I dont know why but I'm not surprised that it cames from you..

We did so well the "ethnic cleansing" of palestinians that we forgot nearly one million of them into the israeli territory.. please forgive us for our lack of professionalism :roll:

you should go to gaza and share your anti israeli opinions with your dear palestinians, they love danes! especially their caricatures :-D

and now If you have nothing to say about the exact point of the thread, please just shut up.. there is a lot of threads about Israeli/Palestinians where you can free this kind of stupid comments...

Mr. Nielsen

08-24-2007, 06:15 AM

Nope. they'll never do such thing. In contrast to what many thinks, for Turks being muslim also, the general Turkish population (except the fundementalists of course) is not much symphatic to Pelstenians. Of course they do feel sad about the events happening in general (as much as the west feels)but Palestenian backstabbing of the Ottomans with the help of the British and the help given to PKK during its establishment years by the PLO(providing safe heaven and training in the Bakaa valley) has done some scars that Turks will never forget.

EDIT: I said "they'll never do such thing", but I have to admit that I don't know how the current Islamic ruling party would react...but remember, most Turks didn't vote for them.I was thinking that the turks might do it more to favor themselves than the palestinians. You are probably right that turkey wouldn't risk off setting relations with Israel over the matter. But the threat could still be a potent tool when dealing with pro-"israel" organisations in the US.

Are you turkish by the way?

Mr. Nielsen

08-24-2007, 06:18 AM

great comment! very smart... I dont know why but I'm not surprised that it cames from you..I do think the striking similarities between one historic event that turkey denies and one that Israel denies, makes it somewhat relevant.

But as you suggested, I agree that the details of israeli one is not the subject of this thread.

Zeev

08-24-2007, 06:36 AM

I do think the striking similarities between one historic event that turkey denies and one that Israel denies, makes it somewhat relevant.

But as you suggested, I agree that the details of israeli one is not the subject of this thread.

comparing the murder of 1,5 million armenians to 1,5 million Palestinians refugees proves very well your objectivity about Israel... oh yeah, Im so stupid, it's the same thing ...

I'll be happy if during the WW2 they were 6 millions of Jewish refugees instead of 6 million murdered... :roll:

tanks_alot

08-24-2007, 06:42 AM

I do think the striking similarities between one historic event that turkey denies and one that Israel denies, makes it somewhat relevant.

But as you suggested, I agree that the details of israeli one is not the subject of this thread.

Wow Nielsen! you're getting soft! only comparing Israel to the slaughter of hundreds of thousends?! no comparing Israel to the Nazis today? oh well, i guess you still need to remain close to the topic, right?

Yet another excellent hit and run by the master.... :roll:

~Berdan

08-24-2007, 07:05 AM

4X4Driver

08-24-2007, 09:48 AM

Don't mind mr shniezel,he is a ****,he can fuk himself and save the check.

Anyway,that's an interesting issue.I read many Hay (Armenian) forums,good chunk of the writers there don't like Israel at all.Most probably because of Israeli ties with Turkey,and Israeli point of view(rather,lack of one) on a subject of Armenian genocide.In masses,Armenians living across the world don't like Jews that much(offcorse,that's generalising,but if we make some average).

You know what I've read on Armenian forums today on that same matter?Stuff like "Strange,why the jews do it,sence they only do things for their own profit",and "they sell their mama just to make political gain",and stuff like that.Someone threw in this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n3TvR2VF20&watch_response

Nice attitude all together.

Yeah. I've seen the armenian allegations regarding the Jewish involment circilating on the net too. Here is one of them from an armenian site.

The PLANNED, ORGANIZED, and EXECUTED GENOCIDE of the ARMENIANS
by Jack Manuelian

(This article is NOT copy-righted. Anyone can duplicate in any form. Jack Manuelian)

Were the plans of the 1915-23
Armenian Genocide actually drawn up and were in place by the year 1910 or 1912? According to some sources definitely yes.

There is the book "Inner Folds of the Ottoman Revolution" written by Mevlan Zadeh Rifat and published in 1929, the author, a pro-sultan Turk, claims that the "Armenian genocide was decided in August 1910 and October 1911, by a Young Turk committee composed entirely of displaced Balkan Jews in the format of a syncretist Jewish-Muslim sect which included Talaat, Enver, Behaeddin Shakir, Jemal, and Nizam posting as Muslims. It met in the Rothschild-funded Grand Orient loge/hotel of Salonika." Syncretism means a combination of different forms of belief or practice; masonism fits that description.

A 1994 conference paper/lecture by Joseph Brewda of Schiller Institute entitled "Palmerson launches Young Turks to permanently control Middle East " claims the founder of the Young Turks to be a certain Jew by the name of Emmanuel Carasso. He states: "Carasso set up the Young Turk secret society in the 1890s in Salonika, then part of Turkey, and now part of Greece. Carasso was also the grand master of an Italian masonic lodge there, called 'Macedonia Resurrected.' The lodge was the headquarters of the Young Turks, and all the top Young Turk leadership were members."

http://www.panarmenian.net/library/eng/?nid=59

They are(armenians) so desperate that they've started to attack others now. This shows the degree of their allegations' credibility in general when they accuse the Turks too.

But maybe now, after the recent decision of the Jewish lobby (ADL),they'll take all these allegations made against the jews back.

Vorian

08-24-2007, 09:56 AM

No need to blame your memory for not knowing everything about the events. Blame is on the missing parts of these events in your history books(of course done deliberelty)

You should also take a look at your history books...

Attack on the Turks (Ottomans) started in 1915 (remember the Gallipoli?) When western powers were attacking them on the western(Gallipoli) front, Russians were doing the same on the N.Eastern front with the armenians in the region. Turks (Ottomans) won the Gallipoli campaign, but lost the war at the end.

You forget that this "attack on the Turks" happened cause they sided with Germany in a big war called World War 1. If they sided with Antante (spelling?) this would not happen.

Allies occupy the land and brought in the Greeks to do the ethic cleansing of the Anatolia from the Turks.

Yeah, sure...as a Greek who has indeed read much more than history taught in schools, I know that the areas given to Greeks had a majority of Greek population and of course attrocities against Turkish minorities happened. Only natural if you take into consideration that we had been at war with Turkey, from 1912 and the Anatolian Greeks had suffered displacements and persecutions during that time (Amele taburu, ring any bells). Attrocities yes,, but in no way at the scale of ethnic cleansing or genocide. The Greek army later, invaded further into the east, not to take lands but to force Ataturk to accept the treaty.

Russians in the N. Eastern front had already cleaned the area from the Turks with the help of armenians.

Russia had left Turkey alone since 1917, they had a tiny revolution if I recall correctly. They had used the Armenians, as they had used enslaved Greeks back in the 1700's. Of course Armenians wanted a country of their own.

Later, in Sevres treaty, we see those lands given to the armenians as a homeland. That's where the kurds comes into the picture. They were also promissed a homeland with the 1920 Treaty of Sevres, but they never like the idea that the parts in the north were included in the armenian homeland.

The Kurds also wanted a country, so your point? Btw, Kurdish gangs helped very much the Turkish army to eradicate Armenian villages.

I'm sure you've never heard abut the details of the events from the other side. All you hear is "The Turks deniying the so called genocide", but did you ever wonder why?

Here is the shortened version of the part that's missing in your history books.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/neareast/ne15.html#Sakarya

Xenochristian.faithweb????? :D Sorry I won't bother.

I won't even comment to this flame bait, as I can see you've heard only one side of the story and ignorant of how armenians lived during the Ottoman rule for hudreds of years. Hell there was even high ranking officers in the Ottoman armies during the Gallipoli campaign and minister of the treasure was an armenian during same time...just an example of hundreds serving in decent places in the Ottoman structure.

Of course many Armenians, like many Greeks in the past were high ranking officers, but they represented a fraction of their people.

And to end this...

Of course, you're made to belive that due to the propaganda results leading the attemp to destroy the "barbaric Turks" in order to free the ancient Christian lands of Anatolia from them at the end of WWI (I see you didn't even bother to check up the Treaty of Sevres) Althogh the physically destruction campaign failed back than, the psychological campaign still continues up to day for political and financial gains.

Just the words you use, show which one believes in propaganda. The Turks are nothing special that needs to be exterminated (like you believe). At that time the official Allied policy was "screw all the German allies". Yeah, yeah, Ottoman empire was cut to pieces. So was Austria. Look what happened to Germany. The world is not against you, time to realise it.

4X4Driver

08-24-2007, 11:13 AM

You should also take a look at your history books...

I do, but we're talking about the Ottomans' side of the story that's missing in your books. I also understand why it's missing too. How else would you be able to explain your actions in Anatolia then.

You forget that this "attack on the Turks" happened cause they sided with Germany in a big war called World War 1. If they sided with Antante (spelling?) this would not happen.

Of course. there are two sides of a war and Ottomans made their choice...I'm not complaining about that. But it's a fact that the lands that Ottomans had back then was very attractive to the Entente powers. Even today, same lands still attracks lust for occupation like **** attracks flies.

Yeah, sure...as a Greek who has indeed read much more than history taught in schools,

Sounds like a pre-wording to "Yeah, we are Greeks, we invented civilization...we are better than you rethoric. :roll:

I know that the areas given to Greeks had a majority of Greek population and of course attrocities against Turkish minorities happened. Only natural if you take into consideration that we had been at war with Turkey, from 1912 and the Anatolian Greeks had suffered displacements and persecutions during that time (Amele taburu, ring any bells).

Like you said...there was decades of war times and ppl killed eachother..including those who took sides with the powers occupied Anatolia to destroy the Turkish inhabitants.

Attrocities yes,, but in no way at the scale of ethnic cleansing or genocide.

For the sake of trying to keep it on the topic, I don't want to start posting links proving you wrong.

The Greek army later, invaded further into the east, not to take lands but to force Ataturk to accept the treaty.

We know that's not the only reason, but even it was, we're talking about the treaty of Sevres right...and what that ment for the Turks?

Russia had left Turkey alone since 1917, they had a tiny revolution if I recall correctly. They had used the Armenians, as they had used enslaved Greeks back in the 1700's. Of course Armenians wanted a country of their own.

Right. I'm not saying anything different either. They tried with every means they're capable of at the times of war, but they couldn't. So if everyone was to call their war casualities a "genocide", the world history would be full of them.

The Kurds also wanted a country, so your point? Btw, Kurdish gangs helped very much the Turkish army to eradicate Armenian villages.

Close enough to what I say. Only thing is that, during all that chaos they mostly acted on their own to grab land from the armenian's promissed homeland.

Xenochristian.faithweb????? :D Sorry I won't bother.

You should...it talks about the armenians also. I have no problem of posting sites like that as long as it reflects the situation in both sides of an conflict( you must have see only the part about the Greek defeat)

Of course many Armenians, like many Greeks in the past were high ranking officers, but they represented a fraction of their people.

Of course..we're talking about an past century empire, not a "perfect" socialist democractic EU.

And to end this...

Just the words you use, show which one believes in propaganda. The Turks are nothing special that needs to be exterminated (like you believe). At that time the official Allied policy was "screw all the German allies". Yeah, yeah, Ottoman empire was cut to pieces. So was Austria. Look what happened to Germany. The world is not against you, time to realise it.

..and here is my ending. This is how it was 85 years ago and it's exaclty the same attitude today.

The following is an excerpt from Dr. Leon Picon, reviewing the book, "THE ARMENIAN FILE"

How successfully the Turks could have warded off the resultant stigma through counter-propaganda will never be known. But it is certain that in 1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?”

Vorian

08-24-2007, 11:32 AM

Since I have to study (I have university exams in three days), I will be quick. You keep refering to me as knowing only the Greek side of things even when I clearly stated I don't believe Greek books. This means I have read, books from foreign authors and sources.
Second, you refer to 1 million dead Armenians, most women and children as "war casualties" of the Russian front??? This is an insult to the dead.
As for Turkish genocide by Greeks, Armenians etc, you can post all the links you want, I can also post links that "prove" that 9/11 was actually a conspiracy between Bush and aliens from Mars, it will still have no credit.

In the end, what Turks mistake when they try to deny the Armenian Geocide is the meaning of genocide. Of course Armenian rebels killed many Turks, civilians included.
However, there is a difference between massacres from vengeful mobs on the heat of the moment (war turns people to savages afterall) and an organised cold-blooded effort to eradicate a nation. During the Greek revolution or the Bulgarian uprisings, the Turkish army retaliated by killing thousands but it is not called a genocide, cause they were not meant to eradicate the people, but to terrorise them to submission. If every war attrocity is a genocide, then we have to talk about the genocide of Tripolitsa (where all the Turks of the city were slaughtered by Greeks), or the genocide of Chios (where the Turks killed or enslaved most of the island's population) or the genocide of Hiroshima etc etc etc. There is a reason why events like the Holocaust and the Armenian massacres are called genocides.

DeltaWhisky58

08-24-2007, 01:53 PM

Gentlemen - this is going way too far and getting quite nasty. I have already issued infractions on this thread, and if any of you continue the tone of what has already been posted, some of you may be on vacation for some considerable time - DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR?

Mid South

08-24-2007, 07:54 PM

4x4 time to read this: yes an AMERICAN wrote it:

Blight of Asia
By G. Horton

The long out of print, well known book "THE BLIGHT OF ASIA (http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/hb-foreword.html)" was published in 1926 in the USA and written by the American General Consul in Smyrna in 1922, who was an eye witness of all the perils of that city and of its Christian inhabitants. This testimony comes from a high-ranking American diplomat, who served in this capacity in that part of the world for about 30 years, and was therefore a knowledgeable and impartial source.

THE BLIGHT OF ASIA

An Account of the Systematic Extermination of Christian

Populations by Mohammedans and of the Culpability

of Certain Great Powers; with the True Story

of the Burning of Smyrna

By

GEORGE HORTON

For Thirty Years Consul and Consul-General of the

United States in the Near East

With a Foreword by

JAMES W. GERARD

Former Ambassador to Germany

http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/

please recognise the massacres of your fellow patriots so i 'd stop posting the same staff over and over . :)

PELASGOS

Canadian2urk

08-24-2007, 09:00 PM

Edward Tashji's passing today is one year and the following is my memory of "TURK DOSTU - A FRIEND OF TURKS".
Born In Troy, New York in 1932, Edward Tashji was the second son of an Armenian mother and a Syrian Orthodox father. Both had been eyewitness to the tragic events which took place In Ottoman Turkey during the First World War, profoundly influencing Edward in a manner that would lead to a life-long commitment. Because of their wisdom, their compassion and their humanity, Edward embarked on a life-long effort to, as he put it in a 1989 statement, "continue the bond of brotherhood between the Armenian and the Turkish peoples. Secondly, with the continuance of the six centuries of trust and harmony, to eradicate an infectious hatred which has manifested itself in innocent hearts and minds of succeeding generations."

http://edwardtashji.atspace.com/

Wall

08-25-2007, 03:03 AM

Some "patriots/nationalist" maybe think, that they arent patrios if they say, that "There is something wrong in the history of my homeland". No, if u are real patriot etc. you can accept the facts, that dosnt make you anymore "un-patriotic".

BPEL

08-25-2007, 05:51 AM

A Great and bold step by Israel in my opinion.

Does this mean the Turks will start buying Russian weapons or stop pumping Fresh Water to Israel?

ce267

08-25-2007, 07:55 AM

interesting ..
1939-1946 over 6 million jews gypsies and other minotiries were killed many concentration camps.
different kind of tortures and gas chambers...kids women etc.

..no one was rebel .killed any german and betrayed to germany and fought againist german army

they were killed for only to be diffrerent kind races..

and no one charges germans ...every body calls them nazi...

but every body say there was an armenain genocide...and Turks are guilty..:)

and no one asks..

.Why there was not an jewis genocide .greek genocide

and other minority genocide..?

why only armenians?
in 1915 there were over 20 non muslım minorty in ottoman empire lands..

some aramenians fought againist Ottoman Empire...they killed huge number Turks and other muslım people...Araps kurds etc...

so what should have Turks do?
thanks armeninas ..please kill us more and more"we are deeply sadomazosist...we like to be killed ...

l think important point is power...economic and poltical influnce much more important than historical realities..

DeltaWhisky58

08-25-2007, 08:00 AM

Freibier

08-25-2007, 09:24 AM

DeltaWhisky58

08-25-2007, 09:26 AM

Very well said Freibier. I just fail to understand this continued denial thing when history/evidence is clearly against them.

Zeev

08-25-2007, 09:32 AM

about the armenian genocide, turkey should just take exemple on germany, that recognised the jewish genocide, and won more than loose on the international scene by acting like this... Just look at germany now, a modern and full democratic nation ... I just don't understand the turkish fears...

Bombtrack

08-25-2007, 09:32 AM

Dont mind me

4X4Driver

08-26-2007, 07:19 AM

I really wonder what the fuss is with Turkey and admitting the genocide,
there is enough evidence that proves that it happened ...
Yet not a single living turk is responsible for what happend back then as they were not born at that time.
This whole denial just makes them look look bad and will haunt them and bite them in the ass for ages.
Once they face their history, put up a monument or two,they can go on in life and have that burden off their backs ...

Hardly the same thing Freibier, Firstly, there is absolutely no court decision until today, like the Nurenberg decisions-against the Turks. Only politicians raising hands in the parliaments. Second, unlikely the armenians in the Ottoman empire , jews in Germany did not rebel against germany with the help of its enemies and killed up to 500.000 germans to create a ethnically pure jewish state in Germay....they were killed only because they were jewish.

If the missing parts of armenian's attrocities against the Turks to create ethnically pure state in Turkey while the Ottoman empire was collasping were in your books, you'd understand better.

DeltaWhisky58

08-26-2007, 07:30 AM

FINAL WARNING!

4X4Driver chose to ignore this, do so at your peril!

Violet Fashion by Mindy

08-26-2007, 07:45 AM

Very well said Freibier. I just fail to understand this continued denial thing when history/evidence is clearly against them.

Could be that this event occurred during the last days of the Ottoman Empire. An empire whose leaders were also from time to time called a Caliphate. The current government of Turkey was founded on democratic and secular lines with a clear separation of state and religion.

It's like out here in Australia. There is demands from the Indigenous Australians for the government to say sorry. Despite myself being Indigenous I fail to see how the current government saying sorry is going to improve reconciliation. After all it was not the current government that settled/colonised this place but the British. If anything it should be recognition from Briton that they set in course the systematic degradation of a culture that continues to this day.

Vassago

08-26-2007, 07:49 AM

I wonder how you guys are so sure that there is a genocide. I am living ın Turkey and have red lots of things about this subject but i cant surely say there is a genocide or there is no such thing. I really wonder how you guys are so sure about this subject. Have you ever made a research in both arcives of Armeninans and Turks?

Also Turkey does not deny the genocide blindly. Turkey has an entirely open archive for people willing to investigate the history but Armenia does not allow people to search their archives. Do you ever wonder why a country that is right about a subject does restrict people to do researchs about that subject?

This is not a subject that we or politicians can solve. Let the historians do their work and make their decisions.

Beykoz

08-26-2007, 07:58 AM

4X4Driver chose to ignore this, do so at your peril!
What now mate...? Can't a bloke say a couple of lines without insulting anyone...?

Not much of a discussion board if you are not allowed to discuss is it...?

The following is an excerpt from Dr. Leon Picon, reviewing the book, "THE ARMENIAN FILE"

How successfully the Turks could have warded off the resultant stigma through counter-propaganda will never be known. But it is certain that in 1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?”

QFT !!!

DeltaWhisky58

08-26-2007, 07:58 AM