Europe Lacks Troops to Give

[2Sheds_Jackson]

From foxnews-


WASHINGTON — Demands for expanding the international force in Iraq (search) are unlikely to be met with greater numbers of troops from Europe — not only because America's traditional allies lack the political will, but because they also lack the troops to fight.

"I think that we've probably reached the limit of the number of European troops that we will see on the ground in Iraq. The only other nation that can contribute a substantial number of troops is France, and they have categorically rejected that," Nile Gardiner, a fellow at the Heritage Foundation (search), told Foxnews.com.

A common moniker for Europe is that it is an economic giant and a military midget. While many European militaries are transforming and modernizing, few European countries have significant armies. For one, those countries don't spend the cash needed to maintain large numbers of soldiers. Two, much of the money that is appropriated goes to salaries and training for conscripts, who are only in uniform for nine to 12 months and can do little to expand each nation's capabilities.

"If you separate Britain and France, there are very small numbers of combat troops available," said Gardiner. "I don’t believe that European nations really have the quality of troops required for combat situations in Iraq apart from major players like Britain and France."

Britain, which many analysts say it is in a league of its own in Europe, has long had a professional army. Gardiner estimated that the British could deploy 40,000 to 50,000 troops in a combat theater if needed.

France, though unrelenting in its opposition to the war in Iraq, has been a leader in modernizing its military and boosting its budget. It ended conscription in 2001.

Spain has also ended conscription and Italy plans to stop mandatory military service in 2006. But conscription is still a common feature in Germany, Poland, Norway, Denmark, Greece and other nations despite debates in some countries to end the practice.

NATO (search) Supreme Allied Commander Gen. James Jones told Congress in January that only 3 to 4 percent of European forces are "expeditionary deployable." NATO officials have nudged, sometimes not so gently, other allied nations to boost their capabilities.

"Out of the 1.4 million soldiers under arms, the 18 non-U.S. [NATO allies with militaries] have 55,000 deployed on multinational operations ... yet they feel overstretched. ... We must generate more usable soldiers and have the political will to deploy more of them in multinational operations," former NATO Secretary General George Robertson said in an October 2003 speech.

By contrast, the United States has a far higher percentage of deployable troops. Of the 1.4 million-strong U.S. military, 135,000 soldiers — almost 10 percent of the overall force — are stationed in Iraq. Additional troops are deployed in Afghanistan, South Korea, the Horn of Africa, Haiti and elsewhere.

According to the Department of Defense, in 2002, the United States devoted 3.4 percent of its GDP to defense spending, more than any other member of NATO except Turkey, with 4.9 percent, and Greece, with 4.4 percent. Overall, non-U.S. NATO members spent an average of 1.9 percent of GDP on defense in 2002.

If it is not possible to plunk down more euros, Washington would like to see the countries at least spend more wisely. Europe spends 60 percent of what America does, but has just a tiny fraction of America's military might, said Julianne Smith, a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (search). Smith said that European militaries spend a tremendous amount on bureaucracy and personnel and very little on material, leaving them with minimal war-fighting capabilities.

"You just can't imagine the bureaucracy that surrounds their militaries. ... It's just incredible. You see 10 people doing the job one person would be doing here," Smith said.

Currently, other nations are contributing almost 25,000 troops to the Iraqi theater with the largest contributions coming from Britain with 7,500; Italy with 3,000; Poland with 2,400; and the Ukraine with 1,650.

Smith said it is hard to see which countries could contribute more troops in Iraq. Germany is maxed out with 8,000 troops deployed abroad — primarily in the former Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. France would be the best fit, but the political barriers seem impossible to scale, Smith said. Spain and Turkey also have some excess military capacity, but neither is likely to send troops due to political considerations.

But even in the rosiest political scenario, Smith said she could not imagine much help coming from Europe. The French could match British troop strength in Iraq, but countries like Spain would not be able to send more than 2,000 to 4,000 soldiers even if they wanted to do so, which the new prime minister has made clear he doesn't.

"The bottom line is that if everyone woke up in Europe and wanted to do this, we wouldn’t get 100,000 troops," she said.

Radek Sikorski, director of the American Enterprise Institute's New Atlantic Initiative (search) and former Polish deputy defense minister, said the paucity of deployable European troops is partly due to Cold War military structures.

"The number that could be dispatched out of area is still very low because of the legacy of the Cold War. Remember that this was the bargain that Europe struck with the U.S. — Europeans developed large standing armies in agreement with the U.S. The rest of the world was the U.S.'s responsibility," Sikorski said.

Sikorski said that despite its weak combat readiness, Europe's peacekeeping abilities are a different story, with significant assets — for instance, the police-style training of the Italian Carabinieri (search) — and greater willingness to participate. Were a U.N. flag to fly over the mission in Iraq, more European troops would be available, Sikorski said, adding that the United Nations would foot the bill and peacekeeping is less hazardous than war.

Are things really that tight across the pond? I guess all that socialized medicine cradle to grave stuff ain't cheap..

[cut]

same as in Japan, the US made Europe this way after WW2, to stop another war in Europe.. Now there are two generations that have grown up with very few troops and see no reason to change, yet..

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Are things really that tight across the pond? I guess all that socialized medicine cradle to grave stuff ain't cheap..
Guess you never read the article you posted the answer was there in front of your eyes.


Radek Sikorski, director of the American Enterprise Institute's New Atlantic Initiative (search) and former Polish deputy defense minister, said the paucity of deployable European troops is partly due to Cold War military structures.

"The number that could be dispatched out of area is still very low because of the legacy of the Cold War. Remember that this was the bargain that Europe struck with the U.S. — Europeans developed large standing armies in agreement with the U.S. The rest of the world was the U.S.'s responsibility," Sikorski said.

[Jehuty]

Are things really that tight across the pond? I guess all that socialized medicine cradle to grave stuff ain't cheap..

Free healthcare is more important than army.
And as the article says we have a decent army anyway :P

[weedman]

When lacking in social welfare and economy it's better to give a fillip to the economy and invest in the future than to build up great armies? :roll:

[Kampfbaer]

It´s about time that Germany ends conscription and gets a professional army that might be sent into harm´s way.

We should choose the UK or France as a model.

You must pay for the security you need, otherwise one day you will pay a much heavier price.

If i compare the economical stats of Europe and the US and calculate the estimated growth added by the new members of the EU, then Europ has the potential to beef up the military.

Building arms does build much needed jobs too!

[M1A2U2]

I guess its americas fault again that europe has small armies...whats new?

[cut]

I guess its americas fault again that europe has small armies...whats new?

actually yes it is, but thank you because there has been WW3 as that is more important the European countries that have few troops are justified in saying **** off to Bush, whne he asks for more troops don't you?

[Kampfbaer]

No it´s not just america´s fault.

15 years earlier for example the german army was much bigger with thousands of MBTs and IFVs. They were equipped and ready to stop the WP side by side from conquering Europe. But they weren´t expected to be deployed elsewhere.

In my humble opinion the EU Governments wanted to spend the "peace dividend" gained after the fall of the USSR on other things.

They bettershould change their minds soon otherwise a great bunch of people might suffer one day.

The US need a strong friend and ally at their side.

[cut]

No it´s not just america´s fault.

15 years earlier for example the german army was much bigger with thousands of MBTs and IFVs. They were equipped and ready to stop the WP side by side from conquering Europe. But they weren´t expected to be deployed elsewhere.

In my humble opinion the EU Governments wanted to spend the "peace dividend" gained after the fall of the USSR on other things.

They bettershould change their minds soon otherwise a great bunch of people might suffer one day.

The US need a strong friend and ally at their side.

I completly agree

[weedman]

In my humble opinion the EU Governments wanted to spend the "peace dividend" gained after the fall of the USSR on other things.

They bettershould change their minds soon otherwise a great bunch of people might suffer one day.
Can you please elaborate this, I really don't understand :|

[BlackRain]

Defence firms call on EU to close gap with America from 2003

Europe's three leading defence contractors - BAE Systems, EADS and Thales - yesterday joined forces to demand increased EU military spending to close the technological gap with the US.
The British, French and German groups, responding to the political divisions unleashed by the war in Iraq which underlined America's military superiority, urged greater consolidation of Europe's defence industry in land and naval systems.

In an open letter to EU governments on the eve of today's "old" Europe defence summit in Brussels, their chief executives backed a drive for a European armaments and strategic research agency.


They called on governments, especially the Germans, to increase defence spending as the gap between European military procurement, now $40bn (£27.6bn), and that of the US, $125bn and rising, widens.

The chief executives said: "We need to address the gap between the two sides of the Atlantic in order for Europe to be seen as a credible player on the international stage and a reliable partner of the US."

But they courted controversy by demanding "protection" of Europe's defence technological and industrial base in future procurement decisions - on American lines.

Daniel Keohane, defence research fellow at the Centre for European Reform, said: "The European defence industry is facing a crisis, and both it and taxpayers need a more open market."

[cut]

Defence firms call on EU to close gap with America from 2003

Europe's three leading defence contractors - BAE Systems, EADS and Thales - yesterday joined forces to demand increased EU military spending to close the technological gap with the US.
The British, French and German groups, responding to the political divisions unleashed by the war in Iraq which underlined America's military superiority, urged greater consolidation of Europe's defence industry in land and naval systems.

In an open letter to EU governments on the eve of today's "old" Europe defence summit in Brussels, their chief executives backed a drive for a European armaments and strategic research agency.


They called on governments, especially the Germans, to increase defence spending as the gap between European military procurement, now $40bn (£27.6bn), and that of the US, $125bn and rising, widens.

The chief executives said: "We need to address the gap between the two sides of the Atlantic in order for Europe to be seen as a credible player on the international stage and a reliable partner of the US."

But they courted controversy by demanding "protection" of Europe's defence technological and industrial base in future procurement decisions - on American lines.

Daniel Keohane, defence research fellow at the Centre for European Reform, said: "The European defence industry is facing a crisis, and both it and taxpayers need a more open market."

technological gap is not the problem, it's the number of troops not the quality of thei gear.

[Kampfbaer]

@weedman I meant that the European governments suddenly thought that there would be no new menace to Europe, because suddenly we were surrounded by friends like poland and had a developing relationship with Russia.

And even if the US is our longterm ally we can´t rely on the US military forever. We need to be able to fight alongside the US for our style of life, or do you want to convert to islam in the near future.....

[mack pl]

Im from Poland so I could talk only about my country.We cannot sent more troops to Iraq, or A-stan because we havent got enough money for this missions.Our military budget isnt very big(something about 3,5 bilion USD), so this 2 400 troops in Iraq is from our point of view big contingent :| .We cannot sent more.My 2 cents, I hope I was talking about topic :roll: :) Regards :)

[weedman]

@weedman I meant that the European governments suddenly thought that there would be no new menace to Europe, because suddenly we were surrounded by friends like poland and had a developing relationship with Russia.
We don't need 300,000 men to fight terror, that is pointless.
A specialized Bundeswehr with about 50,000 men would be really fitting for the missions today.



And even if the US is our longterm ally we can´t rely on the US military forever. We need to be able to fight alongside the US for our style of life, or do you want to convert to islam in the near future.....Convert to islam? Oh I see, these bad people are invading Europe and we need the armies to stop them to immigrate rofl rofl

[nerdman]

When lacking in social welfare and economy it's better to give a fillip to the economy and invest in the future than to build up great armies? :roll:

I maybe wrong here but... wasn't investing in "social welfare" what got some European countries in trouble. Aren't German citizens mad at their lawmakers, and others for cutting expensive social programs?

I'm not speaking of tax cuts, business incentives, etc.

I'm talking about unemployment compensation and similar benefits.

…just what I heard from a German guy.

[mack pl]

@weedman I meant that the European governments suddenly thought that there would be no new menace to Europe, because suddenly we were surrounded by friends like poland and had a developing relationship with Russia.

And even if the US is our longterm ally we can´t rely on the US military forever. We need to be able to fight alongside the US for our style of life, or do you want to convert to islam in the near future....."Poland" not "poland",ok ;) BTW what means "surrounded by Poland"?You mean, we didnt do what you want(iraq war) ?

[weedman]

When lacking in social welfare and economy it's better to give a fillip to the economy and invest in the future than to build up great armies? :roll:

I maybe wrong here but... wasn't investing in "social welfare" what got some European countries in trouble. Aren't Germany's lawmakers and others currently taking flak for cutting expensive social programs?

I'm not speaking of tax cuts, business incentives, etc.

I'm talking about unemployment compensation and similar benefits.

…just what I heard from a German guy.That's what I'm talking about.
Shrink the Bundeswehr and invest instead in the economy & future
(We also got a serious demographic problem).

[nerdman]

When lacking in social welfare and economy it's better to give a fillip to the economy and invest in the future than to build up great armies? :roll:

I maybe wrong here but... wasn't investing in "social welfare" what got some European countries in trouble. Aren't Germany's lawmakers and others currently taking flak for cutting expensive social programs?

I'm not speaking of tax cuts, business incentives, etc.

I'm talking about unemployment compensation and similar benefits.

…just what I heard from a German guy.That's what I'm talking about.
Shrink the Bundeswehr and invest instead in the economy & future
(We also got a serious demographic problem).

Economy... not social programs?

[Kampfbaer]

The size of the the army just matters to a certain point as long as the army is equipped and able to do the job.

You just get a certain amount of quality for a certain amount of money.

Remember about 350 years ago the turks were at Vienna.

I just saw the video of the beheading and i´m really pissed off.

Today such people could just live next door to you in any eoropean country.

The politicians are paid to protect us and the german government does **** to do so!!!!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Are things really that tight across the pond? I guess all that socialized medicine cradle to grave stuff ain't cheap..
Guess you never read the article you posted the answer was there in front of your eyes.


Radek Sikorski, director of the American Enterprise Institute's New Atlantic Initiative (search) and former Polish deputy defense minister, said the paucity of deployable European troops is partly due to Cold War military structures.

"The number that could be dispatched out of area is still very low because of the legacy of the Cold War. Remember that this was the bargain that Europe struck with the U.S. — Europeans developed large standing armies in agreement with the U.S. The rest of the world was the U.S.'s responsibility," Sikorski said.

Oh, you mean the part where it says partly?. ;) Hey, the cold war ended over a decade ago. That's kind of a lame excuse by now, isn't it? If some of these European nations were serious about restructuring, they would have devoted the necessary funds by now. Instead, it's gone to these social programs to produce an unsustainable idyllic paradise, flowing with free college tuition, health care, back rubs, pet psychologists, you name it.

Meanwhile, in order to sustain that level of services, unrestrained immigration has been implemented. I've been reading about the immigrant groups flexing their political muscles, wanting the new digs be just like back home (mostly been Muslims in the news). You! Put on a burka you slut! Ankle showing tramp...

[BlackRain]

NATO Defense Expenditures: Data from the IISS and U.S. Dept. of State
(current year U.S. dollars in millions) Source: http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32209.pdf


Defense (1999) %GDP.....Rank...........Defense (2002)% GDP


United States 1 281,000 3.0% ..............348,500 3.3

France 2 38,900 2.7............................. 40,200 2.5

United Kingdom 3 36,500 2.5................ 37,300 2.4

Germany 4 32,600 1.6......................... 33,300 1.5

Italy 5 23,700 2.0................................ 25,600 1.9

Turkey 6 9,950 5.3................................ 9,200 5.1

Canada 7 8,320 1.4 ...............................8,200 1.1

Spain 8 7,560 1.3 ..................................8,700 1.2

Netherlands 9 7,030 1.8 .........................7,700 1.6

Poland 10 6,690 2.1 ...............................3,600 1.9

Greece 11 6,060 4.7 ..............................6,500 4.4

Belgium 12 3,600 1.4 .............................3,600 1.3

Norway 13 3,310 2.2 ..............................3,600 1.9

Czech Republic 14 3,000 2.3 ...................1,500 2.1

Denmark 15 2,780 1.6 ............................2,700 1.6

Portugal 16 2,410 2.2 ..............................3,100 2.3

Hungary 17 1,880 1.7 ..............................1,000 1.8

Luxembourg 18 141 0.8 ..............................192 0.9

Iceland 19 0 0.0 ............................................0 0.0

Grand Total 475,431 ....................................544,942

[Kampfbaer]

@ mack pl I mean Germany is surrounded by friends like Poland!!!

I think our troops should be down in Iraq alongside our american, british and polish friends.

[weedman]

Economy... not social programs?It's deeply linked.

To pay for social programs, you need economic growth.

When there are enough jobs, you don't need to pay doles.

[aeternum]

Well the German Army is currently in a heavy transformation process. The plan is by 2010 to have a new structure, which will give the country way more options to send soliders abroad. The plan is to have a 35.000 strong intervention force, which will be capable of full scale war everywhere on the globe. As well as a 70.000 strong stabilization force ready to take missions compared to those on the Balkans or Afghanistan. The rest will be support troops.

[weedman]

I think compulsory military service is out of date, but I'm afraid of the group of people who'll join the army then.

[Kampfbaer]

What we still lack is a government willing to do sth. about the spreading terrorism.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Instead, it's gone to these social programs to produce an unsustainable idyllic paradise, flowing with free college tuition, health care, back rubs, pet psychologists, you name it.
This paradise you describe where is it I want to live there.
Cut come over here 2Sheds knows this place where they aint got no student debt and yer dog gets a shrink. :lol:

[weedman]

What we still lack is a government willing to do sth. about the spreading terrorism.I don't think so.

Big fan of Beckstein, huh? :lol:

[Kampfbaer]

You got it right weedman.

[nerdman]

Economy... not social programs?It's deeply linked.

To pay for social programs, you need economic growth.

When there are enough jobs, you don't need to pay doles.

...but if the benefits for not working (unemployment compensation) are almost as good as working... why work?

This is what I have heard is a major problem.

[weedman]

...but if the benefits for not working (unemployment compensation) are almost as good as working... why work?

This is what I have heard is a major problem.Ever were out-of-work?
That's a f*cking bad feeling...

The problem is, that most of these people do want work, but jobs are missing.

[cut]

NATO Defense Expenditures: Data from the IISS and U.S. Dept. of State
(current year U.S. dollars in millions) Source: http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32209.pdf


Defense (1999) %GDP.....Rank...........Defense (2002)% GDP


United States 1 281,000 3.0% ..............348,500 3.3

France 2 38,900 2.7............................. 40,200 2.5

United Kingdom 3 36,500 2.5................ 37,300 2.4

Germany 4 32,600 1.6......................... 33,300 1.5

Italy 5 23,700 2.0................................ 25,600 1.9

Turkey 6 9,950 5.3................................ 9,200 5.1

Canada 7 8,320 1.4 ...............................8,200 1.1

Spain 8 7,560 1.3 ..................................8,700 1.2

Netherlands 9 7,030 1.8 .........................7,700 1.6

Poland 10 6,690 2.1 ...............................3,600 1.9

Greece 11 6,060 4.7 ..............................6,500 4.4

Belgium 12 3,600 1.4 .............................3,600 1.3

Norway 13 3,310 2.2 ..............................3,600 1.9

Czech Republic 14 3,000 2.3 ...................1,500 2.1

Denmark 15 2,780 1.6 ............................2,700 1.6

Portugal 16 2,410 2.2 ..............................3,100 2.3

Hungary 17 1,880 1.7 ..............................1,000 1.8

Luxembourg 18 141 0.8 ..............................192 0.9

Iceland 19 0 0.0 ............................................0 0.0

Grand Total 475,431 ....................................544,942

if you calculate how much 3.3% is for the top 4 european countries and and them together you get 222,074...billion $

so the potential is there even without adding on all the other EU countries.

[Kampfbaer]

@ weedman I was out of Job for two month, but i got my stuff together and succeded in getting a new job.

Quite a few of those without jobs do not want to work for their outcome especially the young ones. Not all of them but quite a few!

I see them everyday at my job (bank).

[weedman]

@ weedman I was out of Job for two month, but i got my stuff together and succeded in getting a new job.
Well, especially in the East, there are many jobs missing.

And don't try to prejudice the majority of unemployed :(


Kinda strange arguing about german issues in english :roll: :)

[Kampfbaer]

Ich habe keine Vorurteile gegenüber Arbeitslosen.

Aber ich sehe jeden Tag junge Kunden, die arbeitslos sind oder Sozialhilfe bekommen und die offensichtlich schwarz arbeiten gehen.

Das ärgert mich mächtig!

[weedman]

Ich habe keine Vorurteile gegenüber Arbeitslosen.

Aber ich sehe jeden Tag junge Kunden, die arbeitslos sind oder Sozialhilfe bekommen und die offensichtlich schwarz arbeiten gehen.

Das ärgert mich mächtig!What is strange about people getting social security benefit when you need it?

Of course, our tax system has motivated illicit work, that's a pity.

[Kampfbaer]

Who needs help should get it.

But the abuse of our social welfare is becomimg a plague.

If you had the chance to talk to such people you would know what i mean.

[weedman]

Idiots are in every part of the society, but don't endorse their false behavior on the majority of workless people. :|

[nerdman]

...but if the benefits for not working (unemployment compensation) are almost as good as working... why work?

This is what I have heard is a major problem.Ever were out-of-work?
That's a f*cking bad feeling...

The problem is, that most of these people do want work, but jobs are missing.

The bad feeling can turn into what we call "discouraged workers." Discouraged workers stop looking for jobs and live off the government. When there is a system which makes living off the government easier, less people return to the job hunt.


Also… how do you feel about the way Germans train or get certified for jobs?

I've heard... in Germany... you basically have the same TYPE of job/task your whole life... be it accountant, engineer, carpenter, barber, etc.

I've heard it is very hard to change your type of job, because it takes a very long time train or be certified a job.

This may have something to do with the economic problems.

There may be too many people wanting the same jobs and it may take too much time to train for a different job.

[Kampfbaer]

But the number of idiots is growing and every tax payer has to pay their outcome.

This money is lacking for other things like "homeland security"

Thanks for the nice discussion without flaming, but now it´s time to go to bed.....

[weedman]

I've heard... in Germany... you basically have the same TYPE of job/task your whole life... be it accountant, engineer, carpenter, barber, etc.

I've heard it is very hard to change your type of job, because it takes a very long time train or be certified a job.That's true, compared to the average US citizen (as far as I know).

Only very few have two or more jobs and after your training or degree, you try to find a appropriate job without having to change it anymore.

This and the longer times of training has probably also to do with standards.

[nerdman]

I've heard... in Germany... you basically have the same TYPE of job/task your whole life... be it accountant, engineer, carpenter, barber, etc.

I've heard it is very hard to change your type of job, because it takes a very long time train or be certified a job.That's true, compared to the average US citizen (as far as I know).

Only very few have two or more jobs and after your training or degree, you try to find a appropriate job without having to change it anymore.

This and the longer times of training has probably also to do with standards.

I know it is difficult to change a system that has been around for 100s or years, but...

Do you think there could be too many people looking for the same jobs?.... on top of other problems.

[oldsoak]

Dunno how they reckon we could deploy 40-50000 troops. Where are we going to get them ? .... Must warn the nephew to be careful and read the smallprint before he signs anything at Cadets..... :lol:

[BlackRain]

Germany:

THE DEVELOPMENT OF SOCIAL POLICY in Germany has followed a unique historical path. During a long process of growth and social experimentation, Germany combined a vigorous and highly competitive capitalist economy with a social welfare system that, with some exceptions, has provided its citizens cradle-to-grave security. The system's benefits are so extensive that by the 1990s annual total spending by the state, employers, and private households on health care, pensions, and other aspects of what Germans call the social safety net amounted to roughly DM1 trillion (for value of the deutsche mark--see Glossary) and accounted for about one-third of the country's gross national product (GNP--see Glossary).

Unlike many of the world's advanced countries, however, Germany does not provide its citizens with health care, pensions, and other social welfare benefits through a centralized state-run system. Rather, it provides these benefits via a complex network of national agencies and a large number of independent regional and local entities--some public, some quasi-public, and many private and voluntary. Many of these structures date from the nineteenth century, and some from much earlier.