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timetraveller
08-24-2007, 08:44 PM
Taken from the washington Post ..


Page 1

Warner Calls for Pullouts By Winter

GOP Senator Suggests Move Would Prod Iraq


By Peter Baker and Jonathan Weisman (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/peter+baker+and+jonathan+weisman/)
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, August 24, 2007; Page A01
Sen. John W. Warner (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/w000154/), one of the most influential Republican voices in Congress on national security, called on President Bush (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/George+W.+Bush?tid=informline) yesterday to begin withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Iraq?tid=informline) in time for Christmas as a new intelligence report concluded that political leaders in Baghdad (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Baghdad?tid=informline) are "unable to govern effectively."
Warner's declaration -- after the Virginia (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Virginia?tid=informline) senator's recent four-day trip to the Middle East (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Middle+East?tid=informline) -- roiled the political environment ahead of a much-anticipated progress report to be delivered Sept. 11 by Army Gen. David H. Petraeus (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/David+Petraeus?tid=informline), the top U.S. commander in Iraq. Although Warner had already broken with Bush's strategy, this was the first time he endorsed pulling troops out by a specific date.
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Warner's comments followed the release of a new National Intelligence Estimate that provided a mixed assessment on Iraq seven months after Bush ordered more U.S. troops to the country. The report, produced by the CIA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Central+Intelligence+Agency?tid=informline) and 15 other intelligence agencies, determined that "there have been measurable but uneven improvements in Iraq's security." But it predicted that the Iraqi government "will become more precarious" in the next six to 12 months, with little hope of reaching accommodation among political factions.
The NIE seemed to support an emerging consensus among politicians in Washington that the troop buildup has made a difference in quelling violence in some pockets of Iraq but that the political reconciliation needed for long-term resolution appears broken. Advocates of withdrawal and supporters of the war alike quickly picked out parts of the report to bolster their arguments on future U.S. strategy in Iraq.
Democratic and Republican leadership aides said last night that Warner's new stance, coupled with the intelligence assessment, may have stalled any political momentum Bush seemed to have been building in recent days. Although Warner did not embrace more sweeping Democratic legislation on troop withdrawal, his call to start a pullout makes it easier for wavering Republicans to break with the president.
At his Capitol Hill (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Capitol+Hill?tid=informline) news conference, Warner, a former Navy secretary and Senate Armed Services Committee (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Senate+Committee+on+Armed+Services?tid=informline) chairman, threw Bush's own words back at him by noting that the president has said the U.S. commitment in Iraq must not be "open-ended." Warner said it is time for the president to come up with an "orderly and carefully planned withdrawal," suggesting that Bush "send a sharp and clear message" to the Iraqis by announcing a pullout plan by Sept. 15 -- one that would involve at least a symbolic fraction of the 160,000 troops coming home by the holidays.
"I can think of no clearer form of that than if the president were to announce on the 15th that, in consultation with our senior military commanders, he's decided to initiate the first step in a withdrawal of armed forces," Warner said. "I say to the president respectfully, 'Pick whatever number you wish.' . . . Say, 5,000 could begin to redeploy and be home to their families and loved ones no later than Christmas of this year. That's the first step."
The White House (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/The+White+House?tid=informline) politely rejected Warner's advice, saying any decisions would wait until after Petraeus's presentation next month. "I don't think that the president feels any differently about setting a specific timetable for withdrawal," said spokesman Gordon Johndroe. "I just think it's important that we wait right now to hear from the commanders on the ground about the way ahead."
Throughout the congressional fight over the war, Warner has proved to be a key figure, especially in brokering deals across the aisle and bringing along moderate Republicans. In 2005, he crafted a bipartisan proposal making 2006 a "year of significant transition" in Iraq. After opposing Bush's troop buildup this year, he wrote the measure that laid out 18 political and security benchmarks for the Iraqi government and U.S. military (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Armed+Forces?tid=informline) to meet and set mid-September for a progress report on those goals.
Over the summer, he proposed legislation with Sen. Richard G. Lugar (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/l000504/) (R-Ind.) calling on the president to develop a troop-redeployment plan by Oct. 16. But yesterday's withdrawal proposal puts him at the leading edge of a broader Republican revolt against the president's Iraq strategy.
Warner emphasized that he still does not want Congress to mandate timelines for withdrawal as some Democrats propose. Instead, he wants Bush to preempt such legislation. Warner suggested that after the first contingent is pulled out, the administration could assess the impact on the battlefield and on the Iraqi government's reconciliation efforts. Then the White House could decide the timing and size of the next withdrawal.
Although he traveled to Iraq with Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Carl+Levin?tid=informline) last week, Warner pointedly did not repeat Levin's call for the Iraqi parliament to oust Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Nouri+al-Maliki?tid=informline). But he was unsparing in his criticism. "I really firmly believe the Iraqi government, under the leadership of Prime Minister Maliki, have let our troops down," he said.



for page 2 follow the link below

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/23/AR2007082302291_2.html?hpid=topnews

noname
08-24-2007, 09:26 PM
No it wont happen

Rictor
08-24-2007, 10:03 PM
I remember someone said the troops would be home by Christmas...in 1914.

ElHombre
08-25-2007, 12:53 AM
Although Warner did not embrace more sweeping Democratic legislation on troop withdrawal,...

All you need to know right there. Until these 'Republican dissenters' put their votes where their mouths are, the WH will ignore them.

a_very_ex_STAB
08-25-2007, 07:16 AM
I remember someone said the troops would be home by Christmas...in 1914.

Christmas 2025 I reckon.

It's getting more and more like the weary old WW1 British Army song

'We're 'ere because we're 'ere because we're 'ere because we're 'ere....'

LMAV
08-25-2007, 07:48 AM
Christmas 2025 I reckon.

It's getting more and more like the weary old WW1 British Army song

'We're 'ere because we're 'ere because we're 'ere because we're 'ere....'

It nothing at all like WWI......

EDIT: Now you'll say its like a song not the war, but I feel you were implying its a situation similar to WWI.

mannelig
08-25-2007, 08:15 AM
I remember someone said the troops would be home by Christmas...in 1914.
Yeah, and troops to Moscow by Xmas in 1941.
Xmas is like psychological pressure on a soldier`s mind.

a_very_ex_STAB
08-25-2007, 08:34 AM
It nothing at all like WWI......

EDIT: Now you'll say its like a song not the war, but I feel you were implying its a situation similar to WWI.

The original delusions of the leadership about how easy they thought it was going to be are fairly similar.

LMAV
08-25-2007, 09:03 AM
The original delusions of the leadership about how easy they thought it was going to be are fairly similar.

Rumsfield: "It'll be a long, hard slog" -May, 2003.

Revise history much?

The statements made by Chenny in the run up to war, were about the actual battle against Saddam's military. They always made it clear the occupation would last much longer. Liberals offten quote chenny talking about being greeted as liberators and the war only lasting weeks. What they offten leave out, is this part:

"We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous ... The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done. Then we will leave, and we will leave behind a free Iraq." [link to www.whitehouse.gov] (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/iraq/20030501-15.html)

XASA
08-25-2007, 10:34 AM
Rumsfield: "It'll be a long, hard slog" -May, 2003.

Revise history much?

The statements made by Chenny in the run up to war, were about the actual battle against Saddam's military. They always made it clear the occupation would last much longer. Liberals offten quote chenny talking about being greeted as liberators and the war only lasting weeks. What they offten leave out, is this part:


OMG! I don't believe you are quoting Rumsfeld and Cheney predictions on Iraq. The two of them haven't been right about anything since the run up to the war. How about quoting Rumsfeld when he said there wasn't an insurgency but just a bunch of "dead enders," or Cheney when he said the insurgency was in it's "last throes". Funniest post I've seen in months.

a_very_ex_STAB
08-25-2007, 10:56 AM
Rumsfield: "It'll be a long, hard slog" -May, 2003.

Revise history much?



May 2003 was AFTER the invasion remember - you know when the full extent of the ****-up was starting to unfold.

LMAV
08-25-2007, 11:56 AM
May 2003 was AFTER the invasion remember - you know when the full extent of the ****-up was starting to unfold.

Chenney's quote, thats often taken out of context, was during the invasion.

Sorry, I just have a problem with people who say the administration claimed it would be quick and I dont EVER remember that happening. People are confusing talk about the invasion with occupation.


OMG! I don't believe you are quoting Rumsfeld and Cheney predictions on Iraq. The two of them haven't been right about anything since the run up to the war. How about quoting Rumsfeld when he said there wasn't an insurgency but just a bunch of "dead enders," or Cheney when he said the insurgency was in it's "last throes". Funniest post I've seen in months.

You may want to reread and understand what I posted before you go ranting. I'm not claiming he was right or wrong about anything. I was quoting the rest of the text that comes with the quotes from Chenny that Stab is talking about.

Mailman
08-25-2007, 04:41 PM
So all them terrorists have to do is just last until christmas...then it becomes open season when US soldiers return home leaving a political group behind incapable of managing with American assistance.

Seems like El Hombre and Stab will get their american defeat after all.

Mailman

Rictor
08-25-2007, 05:15 PM
If the Iraqi government can't survive without 140,000 US troops to prop it up, it doesn't deserve to survive. What will ultimately end the chaos in Iraq is the emergence of a strong, sustainable, legitimate Iraqi state. And no such state can be created if it is eternally dependent on the US.

Yes, there will be short-term bloodshed. Yes, there will be secret deals and assassinations. But the various factions will eventually have to reach some sort of agreement, just like they did in Lebanon, and then a truly viable peace will begin.

ElHombre
08-25-2007, 07:35 PM
So all them terrorists have to do is just last until christmas...then it becomes open season when US soldiers return home leaving a political group behind incapable of managing with American assistance.

Which 'terrorist' group are you talking about? And 'open season'? News flash: It's already open season in Iraq.


Seems like El Hombre and Stab will get their american defeat after all.

Do yourself a favor and get over the fact that the US is capable of making gigantic blunders. Once you've done that, try grasping the concept of people figuring out in advance the results of bad decisions and trying to warn others. The person you should be blaming is yourself for taking years to figure it out. In short, take your accusation and blow it out your a$$.

LMAV
08-25-2007, 08:24 PM
Which 'terrorist' group are you talking about? And 'open season'? News flash: It's already open season in Iraq.

He's talking about taking heavy casualties on the way out, which is a very real issue.

ElHombre
08-26-2007, 12:45 AM
He's talking about taking heavy casualties on the way out, which is a very real issue.

No, he wasn't. Although getting the troops out is going to be very difficult. Fighting one's way out from behind enemy lines usually is...

Telmar
08-26-2007, 04:15 AM
....

Seems like El Hombre and Stab will get their american defeat after all.

...

So this is only about not losing face to those who opposed the Iraq war?

Considering the trumpetting that took place at the beginning of 2003 when the USA and its allies were going to save the world without the Eurowoossies, "alone" as would say genius Mark Steyn, some Americans and their iraq war allies put themselves under a lot of pressure.

You have excellent men and women, soldiers that deserve enormous respect, that are spending time killing ruthless thugs that won't be missed by anyone but that are not a global threat to the USA or the West. Ruthless thugs that given the opportunity, could appear in any society that has been completely wiped out such as Saddam's...And ruthless thugs that are renewed at the same rate as they are taken out. probably faster. Because each ruthless thug is portrayed as a martyr and used as recruiting material. And if in the process of killing a vicious thug, civilians are caught in the process, the recruiting speed of future potential terrorists goes even faster.

Some poster said that the mission was to take out the Muslim extremists from the countries that were not dealing with it themselves. Is an invasion planned on the UK? on Spain? on Morocco? on New York State? Because, when you think of it, where did the London bombing Muslims grow up? Where did the Madrid bombers come from? And in the USA, where did the Lakawanna 6 grow up?

No matter how much US troops over there are taking out second class butchers, it has no relevance in 2007 in fighting global terrorism. The USA has made sure in 2003 that there were no WMD's in Iraq available for terrorists there. Mission accomplished. Was that not written on an aircraft carrier 4 years ago? Instead, by sticking around after having destroyed Saddam's complete administration, you could not win. Blame your politicians in Washington for your losing face. Not to mention money...and worse lives of soldiers that will be missed for more useful battles and that will be missed in their families.

Unfortunately, the war against Muslim extremists goes on. This political defeat in Iraq is the opportunity to wise up on the next battles to come.

BigBaribal
08-26-2007, 05:56 AM
Troops home at Christmas?

With these guys in charge:

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/103795.html

You're joking, aren't you?


And dont' forget what Kissinger said about soldiers:


"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."

Kiss the Boys Goodbye, Dutton, 1990, Woodward and Bernstein (Simon & Schuster, 1976)

BigBaribal
08-26-2007, 05:58 AM
"Some poster said that the mission was to take out the Muslim extremists from the countries that were not dealing with it themselves."

Does this mean that next attacks are planned basically against any of our occidental countries? What would be a good thing for a change, I would even by happy to take part to these operations!

Mailman
08-26-2007, 08:31 AM
So this is only about not losing face to those who opposed the Iraq war?

No, this is about bringing the troops home when the time is right NOT tieing them to some timetable that will only lead to defeat...hence the comment that perhaps those two geezers I mentioned will get their beloved defeat after all.

Everything else of yours was a pointless rant not worth wasting my time replying too.

Mailman

Telmar
08-26-2007, 09:50 AM
No, this is about bringing the troops home when the time is right NOT tieing them to some timetable that will only lead to defeat...


Care to define that concept? What objectives with measurable results still require the presence of your troops? Why is not possible to establish a timetable for it? Ever heard of project management? or the S.M.A.R.T. model in goal setting?



hence the comment that perhaps those two geezers I mentioned will get their beloved defeat after all.


In the end it is about not losing face is'nt it?

Mailman
08-26-2007, 05:29 PM
Care to define that concept? What objectives with measurable results still require the presence of your troops? Why is not possible to establish a timetable for it? Ever heard of project management? or the S.M.A.R.T. model in goal setting?

Gee I dunno...maybe we should get some numpties thousands of miles away from Iraq in Washington to give us that time eh?

OR maybe we should let the military decide for themselves when the job is over eh. Nah...cant have that can we that might conflict with your own myopic view of having the troops home BEFORE the job is finished.

Golly I mean if we give the people who know best the situation on ground something might actually get done...especially if they have the full support of the political circus at home.

Now that my boy, sounds like the SMART thing to do! :D


In the end it is about not losing face is'nt it?
No, its about getting the job done and not being tied to artificial time frames that will only deliver defeat.

Mailman

a_very_ex_STAB
08-27-2007, 06:57 AM
So all them terrorists have to do is just last until christmas...then it becomes open season when US soldiers return home leaving a political group behind incapable of managing with American assistance.

Seems like El Hombre and Stab will get their american defeat after all.

Mailman

You mean seems like Bush and Cheney will get their American defeat after all.
The buck stops there remember.
Aren't you conservatards supposed to be big on personal responsibility and all that?

Aussie Sapper
08-27-2007, 07:08 AM
If the Iraqi government can't survive without 140,000 US troops to prop it up, it doesn't deserve to survive. What will ultimately end the chaos in Iraq is the emergence of a strong, sustainable, legitimate Iraqi state. And no such state can be created if it is eternally dependent on the US.

Yes, there will be short-term bloodshed. Yes, there will be secret deals and assassinations. But the various factions will eventually have to reach some sort of agreement, just like they did in Lebanon, and then a truly viable peace will begin.
I tend to agree with you,,,

sp2c
08-27-2007, 07:43 AM
I remember someone said the troops would be home by Christmas...in 1914.

damn, you must be massively old then!

Mailman
08-27-2007, 11:43 AM
You mean seems like Bush and Cheney will get their American defeat after all.
The buck stops there remember.
Aren't you conservatards supposed to be big on personal responsibility and all that?

No, its the defeat you want...whereas the military is there to WIN the war.

Just a pity there are more in the political circus that would support you than there are those who would support the troops.

Now this is all nice and cuddly BUT ignores that fact that every moron and their dog has been running around for years going on about how this conflict (Kosovo) or that conflict (Gulf War I) is the new Vietnam and we neary heard a peep from people like you...yet dear god should Bush ever draw attention to the parallels around Americas withdrawal from Vietnam and what could happen in Iraq if America withdrew suddenly you are all going jihadi!

Just goes to show, Pavlov was right after all! :D

Mailman

Firetxmi
08-27-2007, 01:43 PM
OR maybe we should let the military decide for themselves when the job is over eh.

Mailman

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is not and never has been how our military and our government work, or is even designed to work.

Maybe we can just let the military decide where they want to go next?

a_very_ex_STAB
08-28-2007, 02:58 AM
No, its the defeat you want...whereas the military is there to WIN the war.



Actually it gives me no satisfaction whatsoever to be proved right and see the army I used to serve being defeated (by the misjudgements of our political class who should never have sent them into an impossible situation under false pretences).

It's a self defeating waste of life. Do you want to take personal responsibility by cheerleading for continuing the defeat?

The number one rule in life is 'If you're in a hole- stop digging'.

Trogdor
08-28-2007, 09:54 AM
I remember someone said the troops would be home by Christmas...in 1914.

You were alive back then? Haha :P

Troops will be rotated in and out by then, that's a given. I sincerely doubt given that the POTUS has stated essentially no troop withdrawal while he's in office, that there will be a draw down of troops by Christmas.

Mailman
08-28-2007, 05:02 PM
Actually it gives me no satisfaction whatsoever to be proved right and see the army I used to serve being defeated (by the misjudgements of our political class who should never have sent them into an impossible situation under false pretences).

Bwaaaahahahahaa...ok...I got some french made spanish surrender tissues here for you to wave from your balcony! :D


It's a self defeating waste of life. Do you want to take personal responsibility by cheerleading for continuing the defeat?

The number one rule in life is 'If you're in a hole- stop digging'.

Do you want to take personal responsibility for cheering on a defeat at the expense of your countries security?

There see...two can play "ask silly questions" :D

Mailman

Mailman
08-28-2007, 05:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is not and never has been how our military and our government work, or is even designed to work.
Hence why you lost Vietnam...because the Military wasnt allowed to do their job!


Maybe we can just let the military decide where they want to go next?

Let the military do their job, ie. killing the bad guys WITHOUT interference and WITH the full support of the political circus at home (some of them Dems seem to be doing their upmost to lose this, what with imposing artificial timelines and cutting spending and what not).

The Government can decide where to go but the military must be left to do their job with the fullest political support from home possible.

Mailman

ElHombre
08-28-2007, 10:25 PM
So this is only about not losing face to those who opposed the Iraq war?

Yes, and it's not just him. The war supporters only remaining arguement for staying in Iraq boils down to, 'We can't bear to admit that the Dirty, F***ing Hippies* were right.'

*Although how they consider folks such as Shinseki, the late David Hackworth, or even the NCO's whose recent editorial was greeted with a snooze my the media to be Dirty, F***ing Hippies is something they never bother to explain. :roll:


Do you want to take personal responsibility for cheering on a defeat at the expense of your countries security?

Please show exactly when any of the critics on this board have 'cheered on' the defeat in Iraq? I'll make it easy for you (it looks like you need all the help you can get): You can't, because we haven't. Somehting else you need to blow out of your a$$.

a_very_ex_STAB
08-29-2007, 02:47 AM
Bwaaaahahahahaa...ok...I got some french made spanish surrender tissues here for you to wave from your balcony! :D



Do you want to take personal responsibility for cheering on a defeat at the expense of your countries security?

There see...two can play "ask silly questions" :D

Mailman


Ah so all you can do is repeat the tired old neocon mantra 'If you're not with us you're against us blah blah blah....'

You're going to have to do better than that.:)

Your support for continuing defeat in the GWOT is duly noted.

ronnieraygun
08-29-2007, 03:12 AM
Bwaaaahahahahaa...ok...I got some french made spanish surrender tissues here for you to wave from your balcony! :D



Do you want to take personal responsibility for cheering on a defeat at the expense of your countries security?

There see...two can play "ask silly questions" :D

Mailman


Troops home by Xmas ?? Will this happen ?

No.

re: Korean War, USA, "home by Christmas..."

Please tell me what "personal responsibility" means when thrown into an internet discussion about troop commitments.