Soviet AfghanWar

[incubz5]

catdat, Moderator,

No one ever said the Taliban routed the Soviets from Afghanistan after the Soviets invaded for reasons of oil (the Soviet Union knew it was failing miserably and it needed to acquire some equity).

The Afghans were pissed and then Reagan gave them teeth.

Then the sect of Afghans w/ the most weapons and most influence flowered to power out of this crucible: The Taliban.

No one ever said the Taliban defeated the Soviets and killled 25,000 of them over ten years (Soviet figures..probably double that in reality).

In ten years or warfare, the Soviets pissed off enough men in that country to lose a war against them. Meanwhile, our special forces befriended the indigenous forces, trained them, fought w/ them, won the country.

The Soviets never knew this "hearts and minds" brand of special warfare. The Soviet Union made its empire by rolling in w/ tanks and obliterating enemy forces, then establishing a policy of "Sovietization" whereby the indigenous national culture was oppressed, and communist culture was enforced.

It would have worked in Afghanistan too, it would simply have become another "stan" like kazikastan and the others, except for one man...

Ronald Reagan.

He essentially took them off their financial life support: Oil in the Middle East.

[RomanS]

Capture the flag rules

[Truthsayer]

*in before the lock*

[RomanS]

*in before the lock*

I got in before you

[incubz5]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

[Beowulf]

this could become a decent discussion of nation building tactics....left unlocked.

[incubz5]

Nation-buidling...what a term. When one looks at UN attempts in Somalia, Lebanon, the land now known as Israel (in '46 the UN tried to settle the Jewish/Arab conflict unsuccessfully)...they underscore what is needed for nation-building: Force.

When one looks at the former Soviet-Union's tactics (and who doesn't love that qualifier "former?") one sees that force alone is not enough, and vision is required. By vision I mean a system whereby people can hum along, earn a dollar if they try, not have forced abortions, gulags, reeducation camps, nationalization of all labor, etc.

Freedom, freedom, freedom. That is the word that builds nations. Take a look at the two strongest nations on the planet now, the two most influential systems of humanity: The United States and China.

Is China adopting our policies of free enterprise and free thought, or are we adopting China's policies of centralized control and thought-policing?

The future of mankind is in the answer.

[catdat]

incubz5

But hey, you want to focus on the dead, fine: 10 years and 25,000 reds dead for nothing, 119 Americans dead and the Taliban is history. It doesn't get any better than that.

You don't remember that? Was it between bong hits or something?

No one said X 2= you said

[OB Kenobi]

Is China adopting our policies of free enterprise and free thought, or are we adopting China's policies of centralized control and thought-policing?

We've had government-protected monopolies for years now. Halliburton is one of the most infamous examples you might have heard about. They are being paid with taxes, yet they have a deal where they don't have to pay taxes themselves in many cases. Then there's their ex-CEO who just happens to be vice-president. Come on, who are you kidding?

Then, what's with all these mercenaries? They're getting paid with tax money as well, yet far better than enlisted troops. Why are our troops being treated like cannonfodder and these mercenaries like royalty?

So who owns a good portion of these mercenary contractor companies? Yep, back to the same group of people again, the good ol' boys club.

Who gave out all these contracts? Who set the rates? Who is held accountable when these corporations overcharge or fail to perform?

Now you know where the army's $2,000 toilet seats come from.

If you think about it, this kind of system really isn't that much different than the government-protected businesses in China. There's the small businesses, local businesses, and then there's the government-protected corporate mafia that is involved in war, security, energy, and brainwashing the public.

You might say "so what?" Well, they're robbing America blind, that's what.

[Sergei]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:

[American Patriot]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:

What part of his post is not true?

[WolverineBlue]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:


Tovarisch -- who won the Cold War?

[Sergei]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:


Tovarisch -- who won the Cold War?
No one. The Soviet Union collapsed by itself. Have yourself a cake.

[Sergei]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:

What part of his post is not true?
I will not even quote this idiot because he doesn't know jack**** about either war in Vietnam or war in Afghanistan. Both USA and USSR battled for influence in the world, they were both "conquerors" and both were trying to bring its influence on the entire world. You can wrap it in any kind of word but "freedom" has nothing to do with it.

[WolverineBlue]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:


Tovarisch -- who won the Cold War?
No one. The Soviet Union collapsed by itself. Have yourself a cake.

I disagree, but I will have my cake and eat it too. :lol:

[WolverineBlue]

No liberal ever wants to confront the reality of the Soviet Union's only real war aside from WWII: Afghanistan. It is wrongfully called their "Vietnam" but it is nothng like Vietnam. Vietnam was micromanaged from Washington, there were rules of engagement that were absurd, Westmorland was basically an idiot with two word defining his strategy: More men.

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members. The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators. We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate. Look at the Soviet Union's "revolutions"...all fallen to pieces, all wanting nothing to do w/ communism.

Now look at Japan (formerly Imperial Japan), look at German (formerly the Reich).

Look at Iraq. Thirty-million people humming along a year after three decades of brutalization came to an end.

Lovely. We do dit right. Our system works!

Hehehe, nice one. Where do you guys breed from? Don't let propaganda spoil your brain. :bash:

What part of his post is not true?
I will not even quote this idiot because he doesn't know jack**** about either war in Vietnam or war in Afghanistan. Both USA and USSR battled for influence in the world, they were both "conquerors" and both were trying to bring its influence on the entire world. You can wrap it in any kind of word but "freedom" has nothing to do with it.

Stalinism? Hmm...must have been fun.

Capitalism/Democracy = fun

[16 OBr SpN]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

[Sergei]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

So I asked, "where do these idiots breed from"? :D

[WolverineBlue]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

So I asked, "where do these idiots breed from"? :D

I was born in Wurzburg, Germany, right in the path of the Red Army. But I also have studied Russian/Soviet history, and I can kind of speak Russian. See my post in the "what is your political defining moment" thread. Ukrainskii

[Sergei]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

So I asked, "where do these idiots breed from"? :D

I was born in Wurzburg, Germany, right in the path of the Red Army. But I also have studied Russian/Soviet history, and I can kind of speak Russian. See my post in the "what is your political defining moment" thread. Ukrainskii
Ну если ты можешь говорить по-русски, то хоть возраст свой назови щенок.

[16 OBr SpN]

catdat, Moderator,

No one ever said the Taliban routed the Soviets from Afghanistan after the Soviets invaded for reasons of oil (the Soviet Union knew it was failing miserably and it needed to acquire some equity).

Oil? The reason why we went there was because the communist government was about to collapse under the pressure from several fractions supported by Pakistan and Iran. We didn't want a US backed government operating on our southern border. Same goes to your attempt of invading Cuba ;)


Then the sect of Afghans w/ the most weapons and most influence flowered to power out of this crucible: The Taliban.

The sect of Taliban started in Pakistan. The reason why they were created was oil pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan.
Who started it? Saudis: Turqi Al-Faysal and some other members of the royal family; Pakistanis: Benazir Bhutto, General Ghul, General Iftikhar, and several others.


No one ever said the Taliban defeated the Soviets and killled 25,000 of them over ten years (Soviet figures..probably double that in reality).

Then you need a reality check. Confirmed and independent figure of KIA - less than 14,000.


In ten years or warfare, the Soviets pissed off enough men in that country to lose a war against them. Meanwhile, our special forces befriended the indigenous forces, trained them, fought w/ them, won the country.

You are comparing absolutely different missions, in completely different circumstances.



He essentially took them off their financial life support: Oil in the Middle East.

Siberia, Caspian Sea... What are you talking about?
In fact, the only reason why we cared about the Middle East was mostly from a political and ideological perspective, i.e. to set up friendly governments, and neutralize American influence.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[WolverineBlue]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

So I asked, "where do these idiots breed from"? :D

I was born in Wurzburg, Germany, right in the path of the Red Army. But I also have studied Russian/Soviet history, and I can kind of speak Russian. See my post in the "what is your political defining moment" thread. Ukrainskii
Ну если ты можешь говорить по-русски, то хоть возраст свой назови щенок.

You are saying something about me getting my ass kicked in return. I don't know how to type in Cyrillic, and so I'll just say this -- rofl

[Sergei]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

So I asked, "where do these idiots breed from"? :D

I was born in Wurzburg, Germany, right in the path of the Red Army. But I also have studied Russian/Soviet history, and I can kind of speak Russian. See my post in the "what is your political defining moment" thread. Ukrainskii
Ну если ты можешь говорить по-русски, то хоть возраст свой назови щенок.

You are saying something about me getting my ass kicked in return. I don't know how to type in Cyrillic, and so I'll just say this -- rofl
That tells how much you know about Russian rofl rofl rofl I asked your age, kiddo.
I bet you know just as much of Russian/Soviet history too. rofl
I also believe Soviet Army pulled out of Germany long before you were able to walk and not piss your pants.
You are just another victim of neocon propaganda that grabbed USA by the balls.

[16 OBr SpN]

For the Soviets, they were given free reign to do whatever necessary to suppress and kill the enemy. Some commanders made a policy of cutting off the head of mujadeen leaders and having it delivered to family members.

WTF are you talking about? :lol:


The Soviet Union were conquerors, we were, and always have been, liberators.

No comments :lol:


We only "conquer" out of national security but when we do, we liberate.

So did we. No country will take an occupational effort unless it serves the country's interests at least at that particular time. Again, there are circumstances which can change the whole plan: USA, Pakistan and China in the case of Soviet-Afghan conflict; and USSR, China in the case of Vietnam.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[WolverineBlue]

I see so many specialists in the Afghan war! :roll:

So I asked, "where do these idiots breed from"? :D

I was born in Wurzburg, Germany, right in the path of the Red Army. But I also have studied Russian/Soviet history, and I can kind of speak Russian. See my post in the "what is your political defining moment" thread. Ukrainskii
Ну если ты можешь говорить по-русски, то хоть возраст свой назови щенок.

You are saying something about me getting my ass kicked in return. I don't know how to type in Cyrillic, and so I'll just say this -- rofl
That tells how much you know about Russian rofl rofl rofl I asked your age, kiddo.
I bet you know just as much of Russian/Soviet history too. rofl
I also believe Soviet Army pulled out of Germany long before you were able to walk and not piss your pants.
You are just another victim of neocon propaganda that grabbed USA by the balls.

You obviously used very colloquial terminology for asking how old I am.

As I said, my Russian is very weak. And when I was thumbing through my Russian-English dictionary, that was my interpretation of what you said. Congratulations on being able to speak English way better than I can speak Russian. I hope it means that you can thrive in your new capitalist, mafia-ridden economy.

[786mine]

catdat, Moderator,

No one ever said the Taliban routed the Soviets from Afghanistan after the Soviets invaded for reasons of oil (the Soviet Union knew it was failing miserably and it needed to acquire some equity).

Oil? The reason why we went there was because the communist government was about to collapse under the pressure from several fractions supported by Pakistan and Iran. We didn't want a US backed government operating on our southern border. Same goes to your attempt of invading Cuba ;)

Correct me if I am wrong, but did the Sovient Union invade Afghanistan to get access to the "warmer" waters of the Arabian Sea? I read in book [don't know one, or maybe it was a magazine..anyway], that Peter the Great had a vison for Russia which would spread all over the continent, from the North to the Arabian sea. That is not his exact words, but that was his main idea. If I am wrong, please educate me.

[n4292936]

ummm acouple of pertinent points. Afghanistan does not border any sea or ocean.
America has: overthrown a democratically elected PM in Iran and installed a tyrant (the SHAH), aided in the assasination of a democratically elected PM in Chilie and installed Pinochet, supported Contra rebels against a democratically elected government, supported Suharto in Indonesia... etc etc (the list goes on) so dont assume that America's only influence in the world is one which promotes freedom and democracy. In some places that has been the case, in others it is exactly the opposite. America, like every other nation, vies for power amongst a field of sovereign nations in what is essentially a ruleless game. No nation is an altruist nation - least of all America.
That said, if the good and bad in the world can be measured in terms of a country's influence America has certainly contributed heavily to the good of the world - just dont ignore that it has also, in nearly equal shares, contributed to its misery. The benefactors of American foreign policy are by design Americans, not other nations, though this is frequently the ostensive reason for its actions. :backhand:
If there is an argument and people take a side of the fence in it, both are almost always wrong, the heart of the matter usually lies somewhere in the middle.
Shane
ADFA

[n4292936]

After all, the Soviet Unions involvement in Afghan was no less a long term strategic decision that the US's involvement in Central America.

[incubz5]

No country will take an occupational effort unless it serves the country's interests at least at that particular time.

Duh.

But what said country's "interests" are...aye, there's the rub. The Soviets invaded and occupied a plethora of sovereign nations in Europe and Asia during the twentieth century. They rolled in w/ tanks, shipped off dissidents to Siberia to die, and instituted a policy of Sovietization that suppressed the national culture, illegalized religion, and seized control of the media for propaganda purposes.

America, the nation that gave the world rock, jazz, cowboys, and television, could never, would never, and will never be anything of the sort. We've warred in places to stop the communist juggernaut (Korea and Vietnam), but we were the polar opposites of the Soviets with their desire for ideological empire.

[incubz5]

After all, the Soviet Unions involvement in Afghan was no less a long term strategic decision that the US's involvement in Central America.

A nation's "involvement" anywhere is strategic bright boy. Imagine that!

However, for you to compare our support of anti-communist forces in CA with the Soviets rolling armies into Afghanistan to conquer the place and occupying it for a decade with tens of thousands of deaths....you're not even beginning to make sense.

[n4292936]

no America's ideological empire is a pro-American democratic one. REmember that America has bombed over 25 countries since WW2 and invaded dozens. It did just as much to export its ideology as the Soviets did to export theirs. I happen to think that the former is preferable over the latter but thats not the point. America was just as much the propogator of cultural and ideological colonialism as the Soviets were. America, while overall a good country, isnt all sugar and spice you know.

[incubz5]

Listen grasshoppers,

The difference between the US and the former, miserable failure known as the Soviet Union is that this country never took over countries nor supported radicals attempting to do so. We only ever supported installed govts and forces attempting to stop the communist juggernaut (Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, etc).

The Soviet Union literally wanted to have a global revolution. America and Americans never dreamed of such a thing and never will.

[incubz5]

n4292936,

The United States saved the world from the Riech (which most certainly would have acquired the first atomic bombs had we not intervened) and was the only nation that opposed the oppressive, propagandistic, inhuman soviet regime.

No nation was ever more chartiable. No nation was ever this successful, this free, this technologically advanced because we don't police thought and nationalize ideas.

We're the best man! Your notion of us as no different than the oppressive Soviet empire is a joke.

[Russian Texan]

Listen grasshoppers,


The difference between the US and the former, miserable failure known as the Soviet Union is that this country never took over countries nor supported radicals attempting to do so. We only ever supported installed govts and forces attempting to stop the communist juggernaut (Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, etc).

The Soviet Union literally wanted to have a global revolution. America and Americans never dreamed of such a thing and never will.




brainwash
verb [T]

Definition
to make (someone) believe only what you want them to believe by continually telling them that it is true and preventing any other information from reaching them



brainwashing
systematic effort to persuade nonbelievers to accept a certain allegiance, command, or doctrine. A colloquial term, it is more generally applied to any technique designed to manipulate human thought ..

Would you please insert your picture - to make my post complete...

[n4292936]

n4292936,

The United States saved the world from the Riech (which most certainly would have acquired the first atomic bombs had we not intervened) and was the only nation that opposed the oppressive, propagandistic, inhuman soviet regime.

No nation was ever more chartiable. No nation was ever this successful, this free, this technologically advanced because we don't police thought and nationalize ideas.

We're the best man! Your notion of us as no different than the oppressive Soviet empire is a joke.

No, most of Europe opposed the Reich, not just America. Most if not all of western Europe opposed the Soviets, not just America. You're probably right that no nations is as charitable, or succesful in terms of economic and military power but Australia, Britian and several others have the same freedoms of speech, press, assembly that America does. What's more, there are several other countries whose population has access to better health care systems, better pension systems, less violence and criminal activity and which regularly reports being more satisfied and/or happy in life (every scandanavian country for example).
So in sum 1. America is the best by some measures, but not most measures. 2. I wasnt directly equating America with the Soviet union, but the comparison between the two's political and ideological ambitions is an apt one.
Finally
You are obviously American for the following reasons
1. you see the world in black and white, seeing either opponents or allies, freedom or oppression, terrorism or freedom. There are shades of grey in the world. Familiarise youself with them
2. You think that America is the best because it has a strong military and economy.
3. You think that America is the best.
4. You likely have not traveled outside of America (Canada and Mexico do not count)
:D
I dont have any problems with America. Like I said though, its not the sugar and spice that most Americans perceive it to be. It does have some history which, if it was actually acknowledged, most americans would not be proud of.

America's invovlement in Panama had nothing to do with Communism, its overthrowing of Mossedeq had nothing to do with Communism (nationalisation of the oil industry against britains wishes). Its assasination of the Chilien PM had nothing to do with Communism. In every above case these governments were democratically elected. THAT is an example of America exporting its ideology. If what another country does is not in America's best interests it will work against or to overthrow that government, even if it is a democratically elected one. Its pure and simple power politics. America's **** stinks just like everyone elses you know
Learn your world history before responding.
Refer to above definition and consider your position.

[incubz5]

Hmmmmm...I've been married to an ex-Soviet for three years now, her father was an officer in the Soviet air force, they lived in a country the Soviets took over called Latvia, until they were booted out of there after the fall of the USSR.

My wife didn't even know about the fall of the Berlin wall until I told her about a year ago.

You want to talk about brainwashed? Have a discussion w/ her father and mother. You have no idea.

And given the cryllic in your little picture, you're either Russian (seriously doubt it, no Russian is so stupid as to qualify the US as "brainwashed" since they know what real brainwashing is...Putin shut down NTV, their CNN, three years ago), or you're a pro-communist liberal nutjob.

Which is it?

[CRAZY MERC]

To incubz5:
I don't really care about this post, but I think you are on crack. You've got every fact mixed up. LOL

[incubz5]

No, most of Europe opposed the Reich

I'll let this idiocy speak for itself.

No, rather, I'll let history speak for itself:

AXIS POWERS IN EUROPE:

Germany, Romania, Slovkia, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria.

ALLIES ON THE CONTINENT:

France, Belgium, Norway.

Oh heck, I'll even give you Great Britain if you want.

The United States was the turning point in that war. Stalin defeated the 6th Army in Stalingrad but would have been blown away were it not for D-Day.

We did it. We were the turning point. Great Britain and the USSR never stood a chance against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

[incubz5]

I think you are on crack. You've got every fact mixed up. LOL

This is all you have to offer to the debate? This is the extent of what you have to say? That I am "on crack?"

Christ.

[ExtraT]

The United States was the turning point in that war. Stalin defeated the 6th Army in Stalingrad but would have been blown away were it not for D-Day.

We did it. We were the turning point. Great Britain and the USSR never stood a chance against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

You're ****ing nuts, man. The only reason why D-day happened is to prevent USSR from capturing the whole of Europe. USA certainly helped in defeating the Nazis, but primarily with their strategic bombings, that demolished German industry.

You think D-day landing was a huge operation? It's PEANUTS compared to the scale of fighting on the Eastern front.

You, my good sir, are definetly on crack. Get cleaned up (read some history) and then' we'll talk.

[n4292936]

No, most of Europe opposed the Reich

I'll let this idiocy speak for itself.

No, rather, I'll let history speak for itself:

AXIS POWERS IN EUROPE:

Germany, Romania, Slovkia, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria.

ALLIES ON THE CONTINENT:

France, Belgium, Norway.

Oh heck, I'll even give you Great Britain if you want.

The United States was the turning point in that war. Stalin defeated the 6th Army in Stalingrad but would have been blown away were it not for D-Day.

We did it. We were the turning point. Great Britain and the USSR never stood a chance against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Poland, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Britain, France,Chzeck republic, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ireland, Croatia, Ukraine, Serbia, Belarussia, Macedomia,(Australia, India, Canada, Egypt, etc) and others all opposed the Reich's march across Europe, most were overun but continued to host partisan fighters working against the Nazis.
The Unites states involvement in the war, several years after it has started, was indeed a turning point. The point of my argument however is that America was but one among many countries who opposed both the Reich's military ambitions, and the Soviets ambitions. Half a dozen country's had fielded formal militaries against the Nazi's, the addition of one more tipped the odds in favour of the Allies. The Americans did not win the war, the Allies won the war together.
The Eastern front would have held, probably even if the west wasnt crippling the Germans industry, the Nazis were on deep shinola over there,and the fighting was bloodier on that front than the western one.

[ExtraT]

You obviously used very colloquial terminology for asking how old I am.


No. He actually used a very simple wording. Even a Russian-Engligh dictionary would have been enough to grasp the general meaning. :)
If you mistook that for "getting my ass kicked" then your knowledge of Russian is less than zero.
Here is the exact translation:

"Well, if you can speak Russian, then at least say your age, pup."

[incubz5]

You think D-day landing was a huge operation? It's PEANUTS compared to the scale of fighting on the Eastern front.

Duh.


USA certainly helped in defeating the Nazis, but primarily with their strategic bombings, that demolished German industry.

Cha-ching! Nazi Germany would most certinly have had time to develop their existing heavy water experiments into an atomic bomb. Aside from that, their war machine alone would've been enough to defeat the Soviet Union were it not for bombing their oil fields, factories, etc...all US driven. They had the first jets by the end of the war. Imagine them armed with atomic bombs.

Even if that's a stretch for you, just the fact that 25-30 percent of Hitler's forces were preoccupied holding down the western front of "Fortress Europe" should be enough to tell you that he would've squashed the Red Army were they not fighting a war on two fronts and having their industry and fossil fuels obliterated by American bombing. Imagine if the manpower that built the Atlantic Wall (the equivalent of building dozens of Chrysler buildings) would have gone into fortifying their Eastern Front. Come on!

[incubz5]

Oh, and Extra, do recall that the Axis powers were not just Germany.

They were Imperial Japan.

War in the pacific ring any bells. Were there Reds fighting it?

Chuckle.

The Axis would've squashed Stalin. American made the difference. Were there no Soviet Union, who knows what would've happened. But were there no America, the Axis would've won. Japan and Germany would've handed Stalin's ass to him.

[SpazzMunky]

[quote]
America, the nation that gave the world rock, jazz, cowboys, and television, could never, would never, and will never be anything of the sort. We've warred in places to stop the communist juggernaut (Korea and Vietnam), but we were the polar opposites of the Soviets with their desire for ideological empire.

Not exactly. We might have been at opposite sides of the political spectrum, but both countries wanted their own 'ideological empires' to offset the influence of each other.

[ExtraT]

Duh.

Care to elaborate? Are you suggesting that I'm wrong?



Cha-ching! Nazi Germany would most certinly have had time to develop their existing heavy water experiments into an atomic bomb.

No, you are on crack, aren't you?

Have you ever read about the Manhattan project? Have you ever considered what a MASSIVE undertaking it was? Do you really think that Germany was up to something like that, while fighint an excruciating war with USSR? (and yes, this war was excruciating)
And if they did, then what? So, they have a couple of nuclear bombs, what good does it give them against the immence resources of USSR?



Aside from that, their war machine alone would've been enough to defeat the Soviet Union


You don't know SQUAT. Their war machine is puny compared to the war machine of the USSR. And the proof of that is very simple: USSR GOT INTO THE WAR AT THE WORST POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES. Germany launched a devastating surprise attack, captured huge territories, massive industrial complexes lots of weapons and, of course, inflicted immence casualties. And still, this was nowhere near enough to win.

Again, come off crack, and then we'll talk.



Imagine them armed with atomic bombs.


Why such preoccupation with atomic bombs? Before the arms race began, nuclear weapons were not that concequential. Only when they went into mass production and a possibility of full scale nuclear war appeared did they become this "weapon of doom" that they are today. in 1940s it was still a long haul before mass production of nuclear weapons.



Even if that's a stretch for you, just the fact that 25-30 percent of Hitler's forces were preoccupied holding down the western front...

Percents are such devious little things - I suggest you don't trust them too much. These 25-30 Western front percents are worth much less on the Eastern front. :)


Imagine if the manpower that built the Atlantic Wall (the equivalent of building dozens of Chrysler buildings) would have gone into fortifying their Eastern Front. Come on!

Well, then, why didn't they do it? Per your own words, they considered Eastern front more serious than Western (they had 75% of their forces there), so why haven't they fortified it?
I'll let you in on a alittle secret: HEAVY FORTIFICATIONS ARE NOT BUILT IN AN OFFENSIVE WAR. And when the offensive ended it was too late to fortify. Not to mention that the scale of such construction would have been "somewhat" larger, and not just because of the longer front.

Man, you don't have a clue about ANYTHING.

I cencerely doubt that are actually married to a Russian. In fact, I doubt that you are even in the marriage age :lol:

[incubz5]

Not exactly. We might have been at opposite sides of the political spectrum, but both countries wanted their own 'ideological empires' to offset the influence of each other.

Oh come off it! The United States was never about empire and ideology spazz. What is the extent our our "empire"...Hawaii? Even when we defeated and occupied Japan and Germany, we simply helped set up something more friendly than before and left. Had the Soviets occupied Imperial Japan and all of Nazi Germany, do you think they would've done the same? Did they do that with the follwing:

Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Estonia
Georgia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Moldova
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
Uzbekistan

?

Hell no. The Soviet Union defined itself via territorial expansion through invasion or subversion.

This was never our way.

And good god, forget about the republics, what about Russia itself??? Read the Gulag Archipelago. The nation was a slave state! Even the Soviet space program was run from gulags. Contrast this with our own, which was driven by a naturalized former Nazi who was not locked up, not given whores, and not under survelliece by the KGB (I am speaking of Werner Von Braun, our brain behind the moon landings).

[ExtraT]

War in the pacific ring any bells. Were there Reds fighting it?


Certainly. Long before Pearl Harbour. :lol:
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you truly are ignorant in the history of WWII.



The Axis would've squashed Stalin. American made the difference. Were there no Soviet Union, who knows what would've happened.


There is a saying: You don't say "Would have" in history. And if you don't undertsnad that, then you are truly naive.

[incubz5]

Care to elaborate? Are you suggesting that I'm wrong?

I am suggesting that by American intervention I didn't just mean D-Day. Read my former posts. American air power won that war for the allies. It was ours to lose. The Soviets alone would've bit the dust without us.


Have you ever read about the Manhattan project? Have you ever considered what a MASSIVE undertaking it was? Do you really think that Germany was up to something like that

Uh, dude, I'll cede that German uranium and heavy water facilities were far behind our own, but do remember that The Manhattan Project was started before the war began at the urging of Einstein, a German, because he felt the best theoretical physics was being done in Germany.

Now imagine no American D-Day, no years of bombing Germany into uselessness. Someone would've come up with an atomic bomb and it sure as hell would not have been the idiotic Soviets. Not even close. The Nazis had jets theoretically capable of supersonic travel in a dive for crying out loud!!!!


Their war machine is puny compared to the war machine of the USSR. And the proof of that is very simple: USSR GOT INTO THE WAR AT THE WORST POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES. Germany launched a devastating surprise attack, captured huge territories, massive industrial complexes lots of weapons and, of course, inflicted immence casualties. And still, this was nowhere near enough to win.

ROFLMAO! You just destroyed yourself man. Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa AGAINST the advice of his best generals (Hitler had over eighty generals executed...bit of trivia that) and opened a war on two fronts. Regardless, the Nazis did surprisingly well initially. Then they, like Napoleon a century before them, encountered the Russian winter. They were also deep into the Soviet Union and were fighting a rather stupid battle for Stalingrad because Hitler wanted the city that bore Stalin's name. After the Soviets injected untold thousands of men into the German 6th Army's meatgrinder, they waited it out until Hitler decided to not send more supplies and then forced a surrender. Hitler was utterly gone at this point in terms of strategy. He was having his best generals executed (Including Rommel) and was not listening to what they had to say.

Irrespective of Hitler's idiocy, do you really think that with 30 percent more forces, no years of bombing the crap out of their industry (and cities), no American offensive, that they and Imperial Japan would not have CRUSHED the Soviet Union?


Clearly, you're living in a fantasy. The Soviets beat two-thirds of the Nazi armies. We beat one-third. But the Soviets never faced up to Imperial Japan and the Soviets never bombed Germany for years utterly ruining their factories, oil fields, facilities, even their cities. The Soviets basically won a major conflict then took the offensive when the Nazis were spending one out of three men to defend the West and couldn't get resupplies because of American bombing and had no Luftwaffe because of same.

Come on!!!!!!

[EvanL]

thank you USA for being the victors of WORLD War 2
You truly are an idiot man.
If it was Americas job to finish the war. Where was she from 39-42?

[incubz5]

If it was Americas job to finish the war. Where was she from 39-42?

Hey dude, I'll grant you that American public opinion in 1941 was divided over to spend lives because Euros were killing each other, but after 3000 Americans were slaughtered...finish it? We won it for all parties involved.

I mean, really now, do I have to go and drag Imperial Japan's and Nazi Germany's combined forces into this so that those singing the praises of that oppressive slave state known as the former Soviet Union can see that no, the Red Army would have been butchered had they been the only front for Germany not to mention the only real enemy for Imperial Japan, which had a navy that would've sunk the Red Navy in a second??

Let me know.

[Russian Texan]

incubz5 - is the very exact reason why our public school system needs additional financing...

[incubz5]

Hey Russian Texan,

Our private school students outperform their public school brethren every year. I'm sure, if you are a true Russian, you're all for more govt spending and control.

Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

I taught for a year in the Manhattan public school system, a dismal failure. It had all the money in the world.

Leave it to a Russian to sing the praises of beauracracy while coming to feast at the table of freedom in America.

[ExtraT]

incubz5 - is the very exact reason why our public school system needs additional financing...

No. I think it's overfinanced already.
The brainwashing sure takes very well. Alittle too well, I might say. :lol:


incubz5: You are hopeless. The things you are blurting out are so stupid, I don't even know where to begin. And so, I will not reply to this anymore.

Just one thing: If you still have a shred of open mind left, go read some books, study history alittle - you may learn many interesting things, and may really change your opinion.

On the other hand - pigs don't fly too frequently around here, so the chances of that are slim to none. :lol:

[Russian Texan]

I taught for a year in the Manhattan public school system, a dismal failure.

Indeed you are ;)
Good night.

[incubz5]

Liberal nutjobs disappearing in a tizzy of telling me to go read a book or "finance the public schools" better. I love it!

Ahem...grasshoppers:


The Allied aerial onslaught killed no fewer than 305,000 German factory workers or area residents in targeted cities. It wounded about 780,000 other persons, made 1,865,000 people refugees, compelled the removal of another 4,885,000 additional persons, and cut off 20,000,000 people from their public utilities.

By the third quarter of l944, coping with the aftermath of the Allied air strikes tied down an estimated four and one-half million workers, about 20 percent of the non-farm labor force, in cleaning and rebuilding operations. Bombing had annihilated half of the sum total of all petroleum products by December 1944. In turn, reserves of aviation gasoline had plummeted by 90 percent of their availability from May 1944 when the Allied air campaign against aviation gasoline had formally begun. The assault on German rail transportation that had commenced in September 1944 had in the course of five months lessened the volume of railroad car loads by 75 percent.

Unlike Germany no invading land army ever touched Japanese soil during the fighting. The unsurpassable horror of atomic bombs, fused with the ongoing firebombing of Japanese cities through conventional incendiaries, compelled the Japanese Emperor to take control of the government and accept the Allied terms of surrender. In Germany the Anglo-American air war continued until the Red Army and Western land armies overran every last corner of German territory. Most observers believe that the combination of air and land offensives together forced Nazi capitulation. But even without the massed land forces literally overrunning them, the air war against Germany had virtually demolished that Power's ability to stand alone for very long.

http://www.390th.org/research/Stories/usbombing.htm

Sheep.

[ExtraT]

Google is a useful invention, eh? Only what you put up here is not proving anything. And, again, if you don't see why, then you have a very long haul before you.


Liberal nutjobs disappearing in a tizzy of telling me to go read a book or "finance the public schools" better. I love it!


Hey man, watch who you're calling a "liberal"!!!!

I'm one of the local "fanatical Zionist settlers", so don't you dare calling me names!!!! :bash:

[incubz5]

I can smell a liberal a mile away chief. But by all means, divulge your politics for me. I'm afraid pro-settlements a liberal doth not make.

Let me guess, pro-govt, pro-taxes, pro-beauracracy for all the world's ills.

But by all means prove me wrong if I am!

[ExtraT]

I can smell a liberal a mile away chief.

Well, then, your mistake is understandable: I'm pretty sure I'm much further away from you than a mere mile! rofl rofl rofl
Seriously, though: I've ben called many things on that forum, but I could never imagine somebody calling me a liberal.
Although, coming from a character like you, such a mistake is only natural. :lol:

[incubz5]

Only what you put up here is not proving anything. And, again, if you don't see why, then you have a very long haul before you.

Yes, how dare I think that a thirty percent increase in German forces on its Eastern front, not having 80 percent of their railway capacity DESTROYED, not having their air force DESTROYED, not having 20 percent of their total workforce REDERED USELESS, not having oil, not having ball bearings for any moving parts, and HAVING THE FRIGGIN IMPERIAL JAPANESE AT THEIR SIDE UNMOLESTED...how dare I suggest that the Axis would've blitzed the Soviets!

Seriously man, are you listening to yourself?

[incubz5]

Hey Extra,

Pony up your politics chief. Let's see if the reality lives up to my guess! Come on!

[ExtraT]

Plese, go on - I'm not listening.

[ExtraT]

Hey Extra,

Pony up your politics chief. Let's see if the reality lives up to my guess! Come on!

What's that, a **** measuring contest? Go play with other 15 year olds - I have better things to do. Not to mention, a full workday tomorrow (today, that is).

Have a good night, and glorious (brainwashed) dreams. :lol:

[incubz5]

That what I thought liberal.

[ExtraT]

Go, smoke some more crack.

[Sergei]

Quote of the Day



Stalin defeated the 6th Army in Stalingrad but would have been blown away were it not for D-Day.


No kidding, I want the same **** that you smoke. Soviet force was already in Poland when D-Day began. That is some 2500 miles west of Stalingrad.

And btw, what does Paulus army have to do with Soviet-Afghan war?

[incubz5]

Soviet force was already in Poland when D-Day began. That is some 2500 miles west of Stalingrad.

Yes grasshopper, thanks to 30% of German forces being tied up in the west and virtually no domestic infrastructure thanks to endless American bombing raids. It's just common knowledge that Hitler's main mistake in WWII was TO OPEN A WAR ON TWO FRONTS!!!!! It's laughable to read someone seriously suggesting that the Soviets and Great Britain alone would've overrun Hitler and Imperial Japan!

Their war machine was demolished by American bombing and their forces overrstretched on two separate fronts. What part of this are you not getting?

[mack pl]

Its not "history and tactic" part of forum :roll:

[The Clip]

Official statistics Soviet dead: 13,000 over 10 years of kambat
Afghan dead: 2,000,000 over 10 years and 100,000 were civilians. This was not as bad as American Vietnam mistake!! No comparison, lower casualties and higher enemy dead.

[mack pl]

Official statistics Soviet dead: 13,000 over 10 years of kambat
Afghan dead: 2,000,000 over 10 years and 100,000 were civilians. This was not as bad as American Vietnam mistake!! No comparison, lower casualties and higher enemy dead.Maybe I dont understand you correctly, but you mean-1 900 000 fighters+ 100 000 civilians?Or maybe its some mistake?

[incubz5]

Wrong.

Soviet commanders were given free reign to do as they please, they were never micromanaged by politcians as our forces were in Vietnam nor were the given absurd rules of engagement.

We spent decades studying and re-studying what went wrong in our defeat in Vietnam, we made adjustements that made us the greatest military force in the world. Our experience in Afghanistan is the polar opposite of the Soviets' and is actually Vietnam done right: Befriend and train the locals, keep it light (not an artillery war WWII style), keep a low-profile.

119 Americans dead in years of war versus 16,000 dead Russians who were run out of there ("official" Soviet estimates....riiiiiggghhttt.)

[ExtraT]

119 Americans dead in years of war versus 16,000 dead Russians who were run out of there ("official" Soviet estimates....riiiiiggghhttt.)

Run out of there? How, exactly? Let me guess: with American Stingers, right? rofl rofl rofl rofl

I wonder, how can you type streight, with all the crack you're smoking. :)

[Russian Texan]

There are brainwashed, there are morons, there are brainwashed morons and then there is Incubz5...

Respected members of this forum, lets stop answering to posts of this young specimen whose brain cells were completely doped out by the cartoon channel and the "fair and balanced news" of the Fox network.

[incubz5]

Run out of there? How, exactly? Let me guess: with American Stingers, right?

Run out of there by a bunch of really pissed off Mujahdeen chief. This should give you some indication:

The initial active resistance by the Afghan military was confined to a short battle against the Soviet Spetsnaz unit storming the Presidential Palace. However, the stunned citizens of this geographically isolated land immediately rose to defend their land. In defiance of the wisdom of conventional warfare, the citizens armed themselves, gathered into loose formations and began to attack and sabotage the superior occupying force's personnel, installations, depots and transport with any available weapons (to include flintlock muskets). Open resistance flared so quickly that only two months after the invasion, (on the night of 23 February 1980) almost the entire population of Kabul climbed on their rooftops and chanted with one voice "God is Great". This open defiance of the Russian generals who could physically destroy their city was matched throughout the countryside. The Afghan warrior society sent thousands of warriors against their northern invader.

http://www.bdg.minsk.by/cegi/N2/Afg/Waraf.htm

This was a contest of endurance and national will and the Soviets lost.

[RomanS]

Incubz

I've always thought that in order to even argue about something, you must know a good portion about the subject.

So here goes a question for you.


What happened to Soviet civilians in Herat between March 15-21 of 1979? Looong before the Soviet forces entered the country.

What happened to Soviet citizens in Kabul on February 21st 1980?


If you ever decide to argue with me about Chechnya, make sure you are ready for it. Actually I DARE YOU!

[incubz5]

What happened to Soviet civilians in Herat between March 15-21 of 1979? Looong before the Soviet forces entered the country.

Hey dude, what part of STALIN SENT 1/3RD OF ALL CHECHNYANS TO THEIR DEATHS did you miss? And I'll be happy to bring you up to speed on recent events:

Tensions between the Russian government and that of Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev escalated into warfare in late 1994. When Russia invaded Chechnya, a bloody war ensued. Intending to crush separatist forces, this was Yeltsin's first major confrontation. However, the supposed awesome Russian military strength inherited from the Soviet Union, turned into a humiliating disaster. Grozny was devastated. Some 70-80,000 people died, mostly Chechen civilians...

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp

The Russians are wiping out tens of thousands of their civilians chief! Imagine if we had killed even 20,000 Iraqi civilians! Get some perspective! The Russians are dirty fighters, the never developed precision weaponry and because they're a propagandistic culture, they suppress civilian deaths.

[RomanS]

What happened to Soviet civilians in Herat between March 15-21 of 1979? Looong before the Soviet forces entered the country.

Hey dude, what part of STALIN SENT 1/3RD OF ALL CHECHNYANS TO THEIR DEATHS did you miss? And I'll be happy to bring you up to speed on recent events:

Tensions between the Russian government and that of Chechen president Dzhokhar Dudayev escalated into warfare in late 1994. When Russia invaded Chechnya, a bloody war ensued. Intending to crush separatist forces, this was Yeltsin's first major confrontation. However, the supposed awesome Russian military strength inherited from the Soviet Union, turned into a humiliating disaster. Grozny was devastated. Some 70-80,000 people died, mostly Chechen civilians...

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp

The Russians are wiping out tens of thousands of their civilians chief! Imagine if we had killed even 20,000 Iraqi civilians! Get some perspective! The Russians are dirty fighters, the never developed precision weaponry and because they're a propagandistic culture, they suppress civilian deaths.

Question with a question?

You were not born during Stalin, neither was I. We live in today, so lets get back on topic.

ANswer my question fisrt, and prepare to take a beating about Chechnya debate.

[RomanS]

Let me get the show on the road.

70,000 civilians dead in 1 day of storming Grozny? One week? One month? loooooool

Now where exactly do you burry 70,000 dead civilians? As I remember correctly from historical lessons, Nazis burried a lot of dead bodies of murdered jews. There were photos all over. But majority were burned, because there was simply no space, and it was unconvinient to burry them all over.

So this means that Russians quickly set up cremation centers around Grozny? Or did the bodies of 70,000 civilians (80% of Grozny's population) kept laying all over the streets?

THis is great, you don't even know your **** from black and white. Do you know how many civilians fled into Ingushetia pre-94?

Do you know what Dhozhar Dudaev did in Afghanistan during his service?

Do you know who let the Chechens back to their country after Stalin, and when?

This is going to be embarrasing for you...
But I DOUBLE DARE YOU NOW

[RomanS]

ALSO,

FOR FUTURE REFERENCE, make sure you spell things and places correctly.

Its CHECHEN, like Checheno-Ingushetia

not Chechnyans.

[OB Kenobi]

Run out of there? How, exactly? Let me guess: with American Stingers, right?

Run out of there by a bunch of really pissed off Mujahdeen chief. This should give you some indication:

Incubz5, either you're purposely trying to rile up the angry, drunken Russians on this forum who would probably kick your ass in real life, or you really are on crack.

The Mujahedeen would not even exist without Pakistan and the US organizing, funding, and training them. The Americans convinced most of the Islamic world to unite against the USSR, brought in thousands of foreign fighters, and showed the Islamic world what modern Jihad could be.

Years later, we know what that has turned into. That's what you get for dealing with terrorists.

[incubz5]

You were not born during Stalin, neither was I.

Hey Ruskie, we weren't born "during Stalin" but believe it or not, a lot of people were born under that killer and a lot of other people were born under his and pathetically inhuman Soviet slave state's legacy. They haven't forgotten, even if you have.

Why do you think Latvia booted out Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union? Could it be that they REMEMBERED that the Soviets shipped off over 100,000 of their relatives to gulags to die? Could it be that they RESENTED the Soviet Union taking control of their country, squashing dissidents, supressing their national heritage, criminalizing religion, criminalizing speaking out against the communist party, and controlling their media for decades?

If you embrace that trash that the Soviet Union forced on people, then move to China or North Korea. Heck, you can even move to Russia, which is still utterly corrupt, utterly propagandistic, and little more than an oligarchy sitting on top of a miserably failed empire.

You won't though any more than my in-laws, former communists and refugees from Latvia, will. You've feasted at the table of America, at its freedoms. What hypocrisy that you can't even fathom a nation being PISSED when your beloved Soviet Union slaughters one out of three of their citizens and bombs tens of thousands just years ago. Come on!

[ExtraT]

Hey Ruskie, we weren't born "during Stalin" but believe it or not, a lot of people were born under that killer and a lot of other people were born under his and pathetically inhuman Soviet slave state's legacy. They haven't forgotten, even if you have.

Listen to me very carefully.
DON'T YOU DARE CALLING ME AND MY PARENTS/GRANDPARENTS SLAVES!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care what brainwashing you received in your fine education system, but you still have to watch your mouth. Otherwise, one day you can get your teeth beaten down your throat.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Im not sure what incubz has against russians...maybe he is smoking crack. But he definately has a hard on for harassing the russian members of the forum...let sleeping dogs lay.....

[RomanS]

incubz 5

you haven't answered a single question that I asked.

Here is an advice to you.

DO NOT FUKC WITH RUSSIANS ! ! !

it will make your staying here misarable, stressing, and very very unpleasant. For your own sake, dont do it.

But since you couldnt answer ****, I'm now through with you.

You are as pathetic and retarded as masturbato

[StukaJr]

Im not sure what incubz has against russians...maybe he is smoking crack. But he definately has a hard on for harassing the russian members of the forum...let sleeping dogs lay.....

Nah - we are better than to blow the lid on every inflamatory idiot who thinks that copy+paste of internet articles can hide the lack of education or common scense. However, he is making a mockery of history and the historial events that are still fresh or continuing to take place in the regions.

incubz5:

I think the fumes from the "tube" have gotten to your head - perhaps you should leave "how people of Eastern Europe" feel to those whom actually travelled and not base your "knowledge" on nation information clips you find on Google. Perhaps, if you've travelled beyond exit 13 - you'd realized that the world extends beyond Strip Malls and Bedroom Communities that supply Manhattan work force with cheap and affordable housing... You speak of times when you weren't even born, you've read someone's backward synopsis of 70 years of history and picked the parts that you liked without having first hand knowledge of the region, history that led up to the events and what has happened after.

Yes - the Stalinist Purges have done a lot of damage - people went missing, entire peoples were relocated against their will and millions were never to return. Everybody suffered - including the russians and every republic that bore its name of the USSR banner. However, russians picked up when the system fell and continued to rebuild what was once destroyed - some nations chose to result a "revenge" on those who had nothing to do with past attrociites and continue misplacing/killing innoscent people who couldn't deffend themselves.

So don't give me that "freedom" and "revenge" bull**** - it's 21st century for god's sake! Learn to co-exist with other people in peace or be sent few centuries back, where your backward feudal rules make scense!

[StukaJr]

Soviet force was already in Poland when D-Day began. That is some 2500 miles west of Stalingrad.

Yes grasshopper, thanks to 30% of German forces being tied up in the west and virtually no domestic infrastructure thanks to endless American bombing raids. It's just common knowledge that Hitler's main mistake in WWII was TO OPEN A WAR ON TWO FRONTS!!!!! It's laughable to read someone seriously suggesting that the Soviets and Great Britain alone would've overrun Hitler and Imperial Japan!

Their war machine was demolished by American bombing and their forces overrstretched on two separate fronts. What part of this are you not getting?

Wow - what an uneducated moron...

First - British bombed during the night, US bombed during the day - such was break down of Allied Air Assault on germany's infrastructure and civilian poppulation. So "American Bombing Campaign" was in fact half-and-half US and British undertaking.

Secondly, most of Germany's factories were underground and continued spitting out armaments until they were overrun by "boots on the ground" or germany's surrender - Axis ran out of capable men to opperate the war machines and fuel, before they ran out of war machines. Also, the systematic bombing campaign has not begun until late 42 and the real results did not start until late 43 - do explain the success at Stalingrad with that!

Third - Great Britain was the only nation to fight Axis since 1939 - Dunkirk, France, Greece, Afrika, even Middle East! In every theater germans tried to enter - there was a British soldier waiting to meet them.

Soviet Union and Great Britain could very well win the war against the Axis without US entering the war - you should see the soviet contingent poised on the Soviet-Manchurian border and Japanese Emperial Army was only interested in South Pacific expansion, not testing the zeal of Zhukov as they did in early 30's. Germany never had resources for cross island invassion of Great Britain - two words... Royal Navy. 30% of the Axis strength tied down in the West... Well - dugh! Occupational force, Anti-partisan forces, gestapo... Osstruppen, Volksgrenadier - forces, that wouldn't last a day on the eastern front - most had life expectancy of 48 hours against the russians.

Check your calendar and add another year - russians would come rolling pass Paris in 1946, providing the trickle of Lend-Lease material would continue pouring in...

[Sergei]

Soviet force was already in Poland when D-Day began. That is some 2500 miles west of Stalingrad.

Yes grasshopper, thanks to 30% of German forces being tied up in the west and virtually no domestic infrastructure thanks to endless American bombing raids. It's just common knowledge that Hitler's main mistake in WWII was TO OPEN A WAR ON TWO FRONTS!!!!! It's laughable to read someone seriously suggesting that the Soviets and Great Britain alone would've overrun Hitler and Imperial Japan!

Their war machine was demolished by American bombing and their forces overrstretched on two separate fronts. What part of this are you not getting?

The only grasshopper I see here is you, with brains of an insect and stupidity of a moron. You either start reading some serious history books or get ready to be embarrased on a regular basis here by people who chose to read a few serious history books.
30% you say, when? in 1941 when the Moscow Typhoon operation was underway? or in 1942 in Stalingrad? or in 1943 when Operation Citadel started? All crack and best divisions of German Wehrmacht participated in the fight on Eastern front, some of them were beaten numerous times and were sent back to the west to regroup, receive new equipment and men. If this is 30% you are talking about then you are right, but otherwise you are full of crap.

[mack pl]

Soviet force was already in Poland when D-Day began. That is some 2500 miles west of Stalingrad.

Yes grasshopper, thanks to 30% of German forces being tied up in the west and virtually no domestic infrastructure thanks to endless American bombing raids. It's just common knowledge that Hitler's main mistake in WWII was TO OPEN A WAR ON TWO FRONTS!!!!! It's laughable to read someone seriously suggesting that the Soviets and Great Britain alone would've overrun Hitler and Imperial Japan!

Their war machine was demolished by American bombing and their forces overrstretched on two separate fronts. What part of this are you not getting?

The only grasshopper I see here is you, with brains of an insect and stupidity of a moron. You either start reading some serious history books or get ready to be embarrased on a regular basis here by people who chose to read a few serious history books.
30% you say, when? in 1941 when the Moscow Typhoon operation was underway? or in 1942 in Stalingrad? or in 1943 when Operation Citadel started? All crack and best divisions of German Wehrmacht participated in the fight on Eastern front, some of them were beaten numerous times and were sent back to the west to regroup, receive new equipment and men. If this is 30% you are talking about then you are right, but otherwise you are full of crap.Im guess on internet we have few better historical sites then this site.BTW its "General Discussion",not "Military history"...Regards... :|

[GazB]

I have read a few of incubz5's posts here on the first few pages and what can I say? He is truely a patriot. He reminds me of a mormon or Jehovahs Witness pedalling his religion... completely brainwashed into thinking he knows what is right and what is wrong and feeling the need to spread the word.

I don't bother talking to such automations as they are all set to transmit and not receieve. Such blind patriotism can only be created by the most evil of propaganda which leads me to believe that perhaps the USA is the worse of the two superpowers. At least the Soviets admit that many of their ideas were wrong... few Americans will ever admit that.

Just a few facts for you from the bollocks I did read from you incubz5, It was actually a Scotsman that invented the Television... not an American, when D Day took place WWII was no longer being fought on Soviet Territory any more on the european front so I really don't see how it "won the war". The Germans certainly did have a few jets at the end of WWII but unless they suddenly made a huge breakthrough none of them woud have the payload capacity, bomb bay size or range to carry the enormous nuclear weapons of the time.

I think it is really sad and juvenile that you think the way you do and I hope you get some help soon... or perhaps listen to some of the replies you have been getting. Most brainwashed patriots like yourself seem to like to compare the US of today with Communism late Stalin style. I look forward to see how the liberated Iraqis and Afghans behave in the near future. :-)

[incubz5]

Hey Russiaphiles,

I pity the millions of Russians that were murdered by that thug Stalin and his dirtbag regime. I pity the masses that were sent to reeducation camps and gulags for wanting to practice religion or for reading the wrong books, speaking out against the govt, saying something they were not supposed to say, etc. If you have any shred of decency in you, you would too.

As for Chechnya,

When you bring up Chechnyan rebels brutally slaughtering some Russian soldiers, you have to have a little fair play and bring up the Soviets systematically killing thousands of them (and not just rebels, but civilians) over decades and decades.

Be fair now.

[ibstolidude]

I don't bother talking to such automations as they are all set to transmit and not receieve. Such blind patriotism can only be created by the most evil of propaganda which leads me to believe that perhaps the USA is the worse of the two superpowers. At least the Soviets admit that many of their ideas were wrong... few Americans will ever admit that. You are as big as an idiot as you espouse him to be. You do those same things that you claim of him. You to are equals on opposite sides of the same pole. Simply read you own posts and see it. Your posts are nothing more than mirror reflections of his.
I think it is really sad and juvenile that you think the way you do and I hope you get some help soon... or perhaps just listen to some of the replies you have gotten in the past. Sounds self prophetic, I would advise to adhere your own advise.

[GazB]

First of all for a moderator I would expect you would at least be able to use the software being used. Including you own comments within a passage you claim is a quote of what I said is rediculous... whether you make it bold or not.

Second if you are ignoring his sermons and not considering the BS he is pedalling why should I bother changing anything?


When you bring up Chechnyan rebels brutally slaughtering some Russian soldiers, you have to have a little fair play and bring up the Soviets systematically killing thousands of them (and not just rebels, but civilians) over decades and decades.

Stalin systematically had thousands of them killed because they helped the Germans. Stalin was not Russian, he was Georgian BTW.


Be fair now.

Hahahahaha... what has fair got to do with anything?

[ibstolidude]

I don't car about the arguement or squabble between the 2 of you - I am making the simple point those things you espouse of him, you yourself are doing and have done. IT is an attempt for you to be aware that you too are making some glaring generalizations that would be based on your prejudices or "orientations" if you prefer.

It is really rather simply.

kinda like "calling one an idiot because only idiots call people idiots" but then that would mean....... hey!

[incubz5]

Stalin systematically had thousands of them killed because they helped the Germans.

Oh good god! The Germans helped the Germans too, did he have thousands of them executed to in East Berlin? No. He wanted Chechnya for the USSR because of its oil rich deposits. He forced 400,000 to 800,000 of them to pick up their babies and kids and get the hell out. 100,000 or more of these people dying due to the extreme conditions.

Stalin was not Russian, he was Georgian BTW.

Who the hell said he was Russian? He ran the USSR, what more do you want?

Jesus! When I see people running to the defense of this beast....I just don't have words. It's incredible.

[Abbyy]

100,000 or more of these people dying due to the extreme conditions.


BS about both conditions and amount of died. Almost all Russians lived in such conditions in devastated by war country. Transportation conditions was equal to conditions of army units movements around country during war.



Jesus! When I see people running to the defense of this beast....I just don't have words. It's incredible.

Churchill said about Stalin: He took country with plows and left it with nuclear bomb. My note: and with modern industry too and this transformation happened within 30 years and this time including devastating war. That's why some people trying to say couple of words to his defence.

[Abbyy]

Hey GazB, it seems you'll be banned soon because you attacked Amreicans! p-)
Now it is common tactics of discussions here.

[Commie]

Incubz5 you're like the donkey of the Militaryphotos ranch of Breeding Horses...

[ibstolidude]

Hey GazB, it seems you'll be banned soon because you attacked Amreicans! p-)
Now it is common tactics of discussions here.
You right Abbyy it is only unacceptable to make generalizations about non-US countires and people - it is perfectly okay to make them about the US however - ??????????? - :roll:

regardless of who you attack - making blanket generalizations about an entire nation (any wide aggregate for that matter) is ignorant.

[Trigger]

Hey GazB, it seems you'll be banned soon because you attacked Amreicans! p-)
Now it is common tactics of discussions here.
Well maybe you should be on your way too then before someone gets both boots into your ass.

I'm sure us dumb American hicks are way below your intelligence level, so why bother with us? Just move along.

[GazB]

I am making the simple point those things you espouse of him, you yourself are doing and have done.

I disagree. Where have I said that Russia or the Soviet Union was perfect, or that its intentions were always pure? I have pointed out that the US isn't as perfect as some here might think but I have never accused it of being intentionally evil. It went into Iraq for oil. Not to free Iraq... that was the advertising slogan to rally behind. I wouldn't suggest they went in there to test new weapons or equipment, or just to kill some Iraqis. The US needs a world where oil is relatively cheap and the international currency is the greenback... it keeps them where they are today.


The Germans helped the Germans too, did he have thousands of them executed to in East Berlin?

There is a slight difference between treachery and patriotism.


No. He wanted Chechnya for the USSR because of its oil rich deposits. So tell me when did he invade Chechnia and why did the commies let them all go home... why not just execute or work to death the whole lot of them? Who would have stopped them?


Jesus! When I see people running to the defense of this beast....I just don't have words. It's incredible.

Without the 5 year plans to build tractors and show the peasants how to operate and maintain them how would the T-34s exist? With a largely illiterate peasant population with plenty of resources the living space in the east really could have been the grain basket of Europe with German industry relocated past the Urals exactly which British or American bombers could reach it? With a couple of hundred million new army reserves how effective would D-Day have been? I mean a real opposed landing. Not the sparse rabble that were there.

The second front in the Pacific never eventuated because Zhukov kicked Japans butt in 39. In 45 they steamrolled over them and kicked them out of China down to the 38th or 39th parallel in Korea seperating the two countries to this day in a matter of a few months.

They also did some Island hopping and captured the Kurile islands very quickly too.


Hey GazB, it seems you'll be banned soon because you attacked Amreicans!
Now it is common tactics of discussions here.

Unless Permski or 16 start posting some good pictures here again then I don't know if that would bother me that much.

Having looked at the last few pages of this thread I'd probably delete it myself... it has very little to do with the topic heading anyway.


regardless of who you attack - making blanket generalizations about an entire nation (any wide aggregate for that matter) is ignorant.

So who isn't ignorant here? Whether it is those evil Al Qada, those evil Nazis, those evil commies, those evil americans, those evil Fins, etc etc. Or does that just apply to countries?

Amusing that someone from the United States of America that refers to itself as America, and its people as Americans yet occupies less than half of the North American continent with Central and South America being excluded one presumes. Be funny of Brazil, Chile, Argentina and a few other countries got together and formed a federation called the USA too.

[Abbyy]

Unless Permski or 16 start posting some good pictures here again then I don't know if that would bother me that much.


Yeah, first man shares great photos while second one shares unique military experience with us. Thanks both of them for what they're doing!

...some chances that i'll contribute some fresh pics from Chechnya this summer... :)

[StukaJr]

Stalin systematically had thousands of them killed because they helped the Germans.

Oh good god! The Germans helped the Germans too, did he have thousands of them executed to in East Berlin? No.

No? You are a real uneducated idiot - the hunt for "nazi-sympathizers" and ex-SS officers was full swing in Eastern Germany - that's why they all fled to the West and then to Argentina, as they knew that western allies would be lenient and let them slip away... Unfortunately, the purges went on in eastern Europe as well - it did started as hunt for ex-nazi and their supporters, but ended as settling of scores and elimination of potentual rivals...




He wanted Chechnya for the USSR because of its oil rich deposits.

Chechnya has been part of Russian Empire and later Soviet Union for hundreds of years prior to WWII - long before humans learnt to use crude oil or fight over it. That's right - as long as US has been independant - Northern Kavkaz was part of Russia! Do tell me what backward claims they have for their independence! The only reason Chechen Sepparatists want their "independance" - is so they can run Al-Queda camps and export heroine all over the world! Just look at Georgia - great example!



He forced 400,000 to 800,000 of them to pick up their babies and kids and get the hell out. 100,000 or more of these people dying due to the extreme conditions.

Kind of like what president Jackson did to all of those Native Americans - not even a century before the event you are crying about... Of course, the only difference is - the Chechens got their land back after few decades in exile - the native american tribes never did and still live in the "GULAG" where they were sent... Learn your history and stop this selective whining!




Stalin was not Russian, he was Georgian BTW.

Who the hell said he was Russian? He ran the USSR, what more do you want?

Jesus! When I see people running to the defense of this beast....I just don't have words. It's incredible.

I swear you suckled on a lead pacifier as a kid - who is running to the deffense of Stalin? Where do you get on? All I see are people trying to shut you up on the topic that you have no idea about, turn historical facts upside down or simply made **** up.

[Tane Angle]

Sorry bud, but the person you're responding too might have gone.

[StukaJr]

Wow, you serious! What a relief!

But then again - he left before I could pull out my big guns and remind him of the 2 SS divissions that Latvia fielded entirely by volunteers... Not so innoscent after all - not with all the resurging neo-Nazi activity...

[CPL Trevoga]

I think that Western allies greatly contributed to victory. Soviet casualties would have been much greater, if it was not for them. It was Allied victory damn it.

Back to discussion.

My uncle was a paratrooper in Afganistan, but I'm not sure why Soviet union invaded it. It wasn't for natural resouces thats for sure, unless you consider heroin one. After reading 7 pages I wasn't able to fine the answer. I remember reading one article about CK CP of SU were afraid of islamic nation next to SU borders.

[Operation Ivy]

yea America sucks and USSR/Russia were/are the best things ever :roll:

[Russian Texan]

yea America sucks and USSR/Russia were/are the best things ever :roll:

Young man, do you really think that US is the best/perfect?

I'll let you in on a little secret: every place/country in a world has its own pluses and minuses and you'd be surprized: US is no exception... ;)
That is what makes internet so great, you can learn about and talk to people from other countries without ever leaving your house or office.

A Chinese will tell you that China is the greatest, a German - Germany, British - UK and so on...

[Romulus]

every place/country in a world has its own pluses and minuses

Thats true. No one is perfect.

[American Patriot]

U.S. is the best. :)

[Sergei]

U.S. is the best. :)

When it comes to rape, no one comes close, that's true. :D

[American Patriot]

No, seriously, U.S. is the best. Don't come here please, you will take advantage of our personal freedoms and ruin it for everyone.

[GazB]

My uncle was a paratrooper in Afganistan, but I'm not sure why Soviet union invaded it.

Officially it was because the "afghan government" asked for help. The reality was that the CIA was aiding forces that were anti soviet since about 1973 and they were succeeding. After the execution of the Soviet ambassador and his family I think the USSR decided to do what the US has been doing in its back yard for years. Applying some force to get control.

The BS about warm water ports is rubbish as the Soviets already had them in Vietnam at Cam Rahn bay and in Cuba and Angola anyway. It was just an excuse to supply the anti Soviet side to hurt the Soviets. As soon as the Soviets left the aid that was supposed to be helping the afghans disappeared.

Considering they are so anti communist the American relationship during the cold war and even now with China is interesting. I can understand the cold war your enemies enemy is your friend plan but now that Russia is democratic and China is not it seems that relations with China are better because over a billion consumers makes American businesses' mouths water. Who cares about civil rights or freedom of speech if they all wear levis and drink coke. The ironic thing is that it is likely to put americans out of work when the Chinese end up making better American things than the americans do and for less than half the price.

[RomanS]

No, seriously, U.S. is the best. Don't come here please, you will take advantage of our personal freedoms and ruin it for everyone.

Just like you came to this country right?
You are guest here as well biatch. So STFU