Blair Condemns Berg Beheading as Barbaric

[seruriermarshal]

Blair Condemns Berg Beheading as Barbaric

LONDON (*******) - British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) Wednesday condemned the beheading of an American hostage in Iraq (news - web sites) as barbaric and unjustified.



"This was a truly barbaric act and there is no justification for this kind of act in a civilized world," Blair's official spokesman said of the death of Nick Berg, killed in supposed reprisal for abuses of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops.


Berg, a 26-year-old civilian, may have been killed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, according to a Web site video purportedly showing Berg's last moments.


Blair's spokesman also said the prime minister rejected any attempts to divide London and Washington over the growing prisoner abuse scandal.


"We are not going to allow people to try and drive divisions between us and our allies. Our goal is the same...our goal is to create an Iraq in which Iraqis govern themselves," he said.


"It is obvious that there is a desire -- reflected in the media -- to try and drive divisions between us and the U.S. and that is not going to be allowed to happen," the spokesman added.


He said Blair believes British troops "have shown remarkable restraint, remarkable discipline" in Iraq and that any allegations of abuse against U.K. soldiers are investigated.


Foreign Secretary Jack Straw Tuesday vehemently condemned the treatment of Iraqi prisoners in the U.S.-led run Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

This is a crying shame the poor guy has been a victim from the start.

Mr Berg's parents blamed the Bush administration for his death, saying that if the US authorities had not unlawfully detained their son in March on suspicion that he was an insurgent or terrorist he would have left the country safely.
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1083180423132&p=1012571727092


Their congressman, Republican Rep. Jim Gerlach, said after visiting Berg's parents that they had been frustrated by lack of information from the U.S. government when Berg was detained without charge by Iraqi police from around March 24 until his release on April 6.
http://*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NPBMU2CXCQXZGCRBAEZSFEY?type=domesticNews&storyID=5110381
http://wwwi.*******.com/images/mdf563837.jpg

[American Patriot]

Blame terrorism, not the Bush administration.

[seruriermarshal]

Mr Berg's parents blamed the Bush administration for his death , think mood there they lose son . allies will revenge for Mr Berg .

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Considering the circumstances of his arrest, detention, release and his death at the hands of these killers I can see why there are upset.
This guy appears to have been a law abiding US citizen who was detained as an insurgent and there is no explanation as to why, I don't blame Bush but I do question the occupation authorities arrest and detention procedures in this case. :(

[weedman]

Mr Berg's parents blamed the Bush administration for his death , think mood there they lose son.I can really understand this.

[seruriermarshal]

Considering the circumstances of his arrest, detention, release and his death at the hands of these killers I can see why there are upset.
This guy appears to have been a law abiding US citizen who was detained as an insurgent and there is no explanation as to why, I don't blame Bush but I do question the occupation authorities arrest and detention procedures in this case. :(

Wrong , A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg was in Iraq "of his own accord" and had been advised to leave Iraq but refused. The official refused to elaborate but promised more information later Wednesday.

spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But he was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24.

Berg was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days. His father, Michael, said his son wasn't allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer. On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated. His family last heard from him April 9 but it was unclear when and where he was abducted.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Considering the circumstances of his arrest, detention, release and his death at the hands of these killers I can see why there are upset.
This guy appears to have been a law abiding US citizen who was detained as an insurgent and there is no explanation as to why, I don't blame Bush but I do question the occupation authorities arrest and detention procedures in this case. :(

Wrong , A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg was in Iraq "of his own accord" and had been advised to leave Iraq but refused. The official refused to elaborate but promised more information later Wednesday.
So what part is wrong, the part about him being a law abiding citizen or his detention or are you pooped because I dare to question the procedures of the coalition authorities. Answer please.

[seruriermarshal]

Considering the circumstances of his arrest, detention, release and his death at the hands of these killers I can see why there are upset.
This guy appears to have been a law abiding US citizen who was detained as an insurgent and there is no explanation as to why, I don't blame Bush but I do question the occupation authorities arrest and detention procedures in this case. :(

Wrong , A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg was in Iraq "of his own accord" and had been advised to leave Iraq but refused. The official refused to elaborate but promised more information later Wednesday.
So what part is wrong, the part about him being a law abiding citizen or his detention or are you pooped because I dare to question the procedures of the coalition authorities. Answer please.

First when Iraqi police detain him , allies don't know .
Second when allies know this event , the notice his family .
Third when he Missing , allies has free him .

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I still think there is something very wrong here Mr Berg gets picked up on March 24 and gets released on April 6, Iraqi police pick up an American passport holder of obvious western appearance they think he may be an insurgent and the US intelligence agencies and Coalition authorties in Iraq know little about it.

[seruriermarshal]

I still think there is something very wrong here Mr Berg gets picked up on March 24 and gets released on April 6, Iraqi police pick up an American passport holder of obvious western appearance they think he may be an insurgent and the US intelligence agencies and Coalition authorties in Iraq know little about it.

I'm afraid reason is Iraq police .

[Durandal]

Hate to politicize this, but Berg's horrible death probably just won the next election for George Bush.

If it happens again, I'll even wager money on it.

American's have been sanitized from seeing this. It is ALL over radio, TV, and the internet.

I have three friends that just checked with a recruiting office (all former reserve officers and over the age of 33) wantiing to know what their options would be and if they could be sent to an active duty unit in Iraq.

I know this is might not be happening everywhere, but I would be curious to see what enlistment numbers are.

People are going to rally around this horrible event.

[cut]

Hate to politicize this, but Berg's horrible death probably just won the next election for George Bush.

If it happens again, I'll even wager money on it.

American's have been sanitized from seeing this. It is ALL over radio, TV, and the internet.

I have three friends that just checked with a recruiting office (all former reserve officers and over the age of 33) wantiing to know what their options would be and if they could be sent to an active duty unit in Iraq.

I know this is might not be happening everywhere, but I would be curious to see what enlistment numbers are.

People are going to rally around this horrible event.

don't count your eggs before they have hatched ;)

[incubz5]

This poor guy's parents blamed Bush for Al Queda chopping his head off??

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots. With parents like that it's no wonder this guy had no clue about the risk he was taking there.

Message to American civilians in Iraq: Keep a low profile, stay in groups, blend in.

[incubz5]

I can really understand this.


I doubt anyone who sports a picture of a communist thug like Guevara can "understand" much of anything.

[mustamato]

This poor guy's parents blamed Bush for Al Queda chopping his head off??

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots etc etc etc

"Al Queda", you think Osama gave the orders? Probably not. I wouldn´t even count
on that this group of men had anything to do with Al Qaida, they could just as well
be wannabes. Even if they were Al Qaida (which I doubt) it was a independent
cell that took orders from nobody. It´s quite probable that in a subculture like that,
the leaders must show that he have balls and doesn´t only talk. So he can have
decided to kill Berg just to keep in charge of the small bandit group. It can be as
simply as that. Don´t be so naive that you blaim Osama for this.

[Argyll]

This poor guy's parents blamed Bush for Al Queda chopping his head off??

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots etc etc etc

"Al Queda", you think Osama gave the orders? Probably not. I wouldn´t even count
on that this group of men had anything to do with Al Qaida, they could just as well
be wannabes. Even if they were Al Qaida (which I doubt) it was a independent
cell that took orders from nobody. It´s quite probable that in a subculture like that,
the leaders must show that he have balls and doesn´t only talk. So he can have
decided to kill Berg just to keep in charge of the small bandit group. It can be as
simply as that. Don´t be so naive that you blaim Osama for this.


Listen to this man folks he knows Al Quida inside out,what babbling Bull****,it even claims Zachrawi done the butchering,and he's AQ.
For those who think AQ are not in Iraq........wake up.I know for fact they are there........,mustamoto .......post whatever **** you want and the reference to mods in another thread is duly noted ;) ...........Dead man walking!!

[scm77]

"Blair Condems Berg Beheading as Barbaric." Try saying that 10 times fast. ;)

They said on CNN yesterday, that he was released on April 6. He called his parents each day unil he was kidnapped (april 9). So the fact he was unlawfully detained blah blah as far as I can tell made no difference.

As for saying Bush is responsible for his death, that's garbage. Show me the video of President Bush cutting off his head, or show me where Bush forced him to go work in Iraq. :roll:

[XASA]

This poor guy's parents blamed Bush for Al Queda chopping his head off??

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots etc etc etc

"Al Queda", you think Osama gave the orders? Probably not. I wouldn´t even count
on that this group of men had anything to do with Al Qaida, they could just as well
be wannabes. Even if they were Al Qaida (which I doubt) it was a independent
cell that took orders from nobody. It´s quite probable that in a subculture like that,
the leaders must show that he have balls and doesn´t only talk. So he can have
decided to kill Berg just to keep in charge of the small bandit group. It can be as
simply as that. Don´t be so naive that you blaim Osama for this.

Another "inside the mind of a terrorist" post from our resident expert on terrorism, coalition tactics and nationalism. ;) You are so much smarter than the rest of us, arn't you, since you can tell from your computer perch the motives of these terrorists.

Your post also reads as if you are apologizing for Osama. I have yet to read one word from you condemning this barbaric act; yet, you are so quick to condemn the coalition for lesser acts. Shameful.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots. With parents like that it's no wonder this guy had no clue about the risk he was taking there.
We here are in sympathy with Mr Bergs parents and have been discussing the circumstances of his death and the likely repercussions. Whatever you do not belittle their grief because it does not suit your political stance.

[incubz5]

Good god, wading through this post is like hacking through a swamp. Tedious. Here we go though:

you think Osama gave the orders?

Where on earth does this even come from? Who even mentioned Bin Laden? You're spinning your wheels over nothing.


"I wouldn´t even count on that this group of men had anything to do with Al Qaida"

Well mustamato, we only have their own STATEMENT to go on. Then there is the footer of their video: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American

But really mustamato, are you seriously going to quibble about whether they're Al Queda or not? They're TERRORISTS!


Even if they were Al Qaida (which I doubt) it was a independent
cell that took orders from nobody. It´s quite probable that in a subculture like that, the leaders must show that he have balls and doesn´t only talk. So he can have decided to kill Berg just to keep in charge of the small bandit group.

While you fantasize and play armchair CIA agent, I'll reiterate: They're thuggish killers and butchers. They shoot pregnant women and execute their little daughters. They execute missionaries and aid workers. They're TERRORISTS. Whether they're Hezbollah, Al Queda, the Al Asqua Martyrs Brigade....who cares? Six of one, half a dozen of the other.


Don´t be so naive that you blaim Osama for this.

Again, where did I mention Bin Laden? Your ringing defence of him in this is misdirected.

[Argyll]

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots. With parents like that it's no wonder this guy had no clue about the risk he was taking there.
We here are in sympathy with Mr Bergs parents and have been discussing the circumstances of his death and the likely repercussions. Whatever you do not belittle their grief because it does not suit your political stance.

Well said my blue skinned kinsman woot

[Shiruzu]

Who really knows if it was "al-Zarqawi" ? Don't get me wrong, i don't want to start a flamewar, i just don't know, how people can be so sure of that?
I did not see the video (because i did not want to :( ), so is the persond saying, that he is this "al-Zarqawi" ?

[Argyll]

I think this info came from the website that it was aired on.

[mustamato]

What surprises me most is why murderers doesn´t always say who they are,
where they live and so forth so that they can be killed. If it was this Abu-what-the
fokk-his-name-is why did he cover his face? It´s all over the Internet anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3483089.stm

[Shiruzu]

I think this info came from the website that it was aired on.

Well, i wouldn't call this a "waterproof source", would you?? rofl

[incubz5]

We here are in sympathy with Mr Bergs parents and have been discussing the circumstances of his death and the likely repercussions. Whatever you do not belittle their grief because it does not suit your political stance.

Where did I "belittle" their grief? They're suffering the greatest torture imaginable right now - loss of child (and yeah, i know he was 26, but you're always a child to your parents). What I have a problem with is their denial, their placing the blame for his slaughter not on the barbarians who did this, but on the very man who is running the war on these thugs and their accomplices. Their ignorance is counterproductive to the very efforts underway to eliminate the very individuals who beheaded their son.

Also, it was their son's choice to go to Iraq, he was not forced there by Bush.

[incubz5]

mustamato,

While you quibble over what's on their ACME Terrorist ID Card, let me just repeat: They're terrorists!

[Shiruzu]

But you have to ask yourself, why he was killed, and not treated like Hamill for example? Its because of the abuse-photos from Abu Ghuraib.

The US-Government knew about these photos since several months, but did nothing agains the soldiers (reservists?) shown in there, untill now, because they have no other option due to political pressure from inside and outside the USA. Thats, what upsets the moslems - if the government would have reacted faster, the anger might not have been so huge, and with it the reactions ( = execution).

[incubz5]

Whatever you do not belittle their grief because it does not suit your political stance.

And another thing: This has nothing to do w/ poilitics. If they had blamed Kerry or Clinton I would be saying the same thing.

[Shiruzu]

mustamato,

While you quibble over what's on their ACME Terrorist ID Card, let me just repeat: They're terrorists!

Wel, they are in their own country, so aren't the rather be called "insurgents" ?
I mean: "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" ...

[incubz5]

the anger might not have been so huge, and with it the reactions ( = execution).

Oh spare me! They'll execute any American and had Hamill not escaped he would be room temperature right now as well.

They're in execution mode and will kill REGARDLESS of those photos, get real. Did you happen to notice that 3000 civilians were murdered a couple of years back? Were they "motivated" by photos then?

[Argyll]

I see we have a new Flame warrior.............keep it up you'll soon join the que ;)

[Shiruzu]

the anger might not have been so huge, and with it the reactions ( = execution).

Oh spare me! They'll execute any American and had Hamill not escaped he would be room temperature right now as well.

Yes, after these photos, Hamill wouldn't have been treated the way he was.
If they were about to kill him, why did they give him antibiotica-medicine?

[Shiruzu]

I see we have a new Flame warrior.............keep it up you'll soon join the que ;)

You see: Thats what i meant with "something is ****ed up with this forum"!

Did i insult you? Or anyone else? What is my fault? I just wanted to show you another oppinion - and therefor i will get banned??
Sorry, but this reminds me of the Third Reich, other oppinions weren't allowed there too ;)

[duck]

I see we have a new Flame warrior.............keep it up you'll soon join the que ;)

You see: Thats what i meant with "something is f*** up with this forum"!

Did i insult you? Or anyone else? What is my fault? I just wanted to show you another oppinion - and therefor i will get banned??
Sorry, but this reminds me of the Third Reich, other oppinions weren't allowed there too ;)

What is your opinion then?

[Shiruzu]

What is your opinion then?

About what? The beheading?

It's absolutly wrong, and by the way - i'm against death penality anyways, but thats another loooong discussion ;)

[incubz5]

Yes, after these photos, Hamill wouldn't have been treated the way he was.
If they were about to kill him, why did they give him antibiotica-medicine?

If you think Hamill was going to get out of that alive, you're sorely mistaken. His captors may have wanted to sell him, they may have been planning how to kill him or how to film it, whatever, he was going to be toast. Or, in their own words "he will be treated worse than those who were killed and burned in Fallujah."

But since you're shilling for these thugs and suggesting they "take care" of their captors, shall we place bets now on the fate of Keith Maupin, an American who remains in the hands of kidnappers?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Where did I "belittle" their grief?
The text in bold type is where you belittled their grief.

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are

[Shiruzu]

Yes, after these photos, Hamill wouldn't have been treated the way he was.
If they were about to kill him, why did they give him antibiotica-medicine?

If you think Hamill was going to get out of that alive, you're sorely mistaken. His captors may have wanted to sell him, they may have been planning how to kill him or how to film it, whatever, he was going to be toast. Or, in their own words "he will be treated worse than those who were killed and burned in Fallujah."

But since you're shilling for these thugs and suggesting they "take care" of their captors, shall we place bets now on the fate of Keith Maupin, an American who remains in the hands of kidnappers?

But then, there were these japanese guys, who have not been burnt alive, and this was achieved by negotiations, so why would'nt this have been possible with Hamill too (in case, the Gurhaib-Photos never happened)?

And to Mr. Maupin: i think its absolutly respectless(right word??) to say things like this!

[Argyll]

I see we have a new Flame warrior.............keep it up you'll soon join the que ;)

You see: Thats what i meant with "something is f*** up with this forum"!

Did i insult you? Or anyone else? What is my fault? I just wanted to show you another oppinion - and therefor i will get banned??
Sorry, but this reminds me of the Third Reich, other oppinions weren't allowed there too ;)

Read the forum rules before you go any further,some of what you posted are construed as Flaming......the very fact you immediately associated yourself with what I posted means I hit the nail right on the head,no you never insulted me,but you are questioning the actions of the moderators on this site.
I can fast see a pattern developing here with you,if this reminds you of the Third Reich ,of which I take it you lived under then to form such an expert opinion?.....No I didn't think so :bash:
Here's the fast and low here,this is a private run site,where you are a guest here,when you start to show disrespect,then you are treading a fine line,Hood is the only person who can ban people,and as this is his site he can do as he damn well pleases.

Now I and other mods locked a lot of threads re Nick Berg,due to them becoming inflamatory and political,where no one gave two ****s about the plight of the Berg family,it is not for others to decide when a topic becomes inflamatory,that is the responsibility of the mods,and if you do not like it either take it to a PM ,or move on and post informative topics.
I will not go into the history of the 2 mentioned,they had their chances,repeatedly,one felt he was above all and Sundry and is no longer,he contributed to his own downfall,and nobody here needs to justify their actions.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

So far as I can see there has been only two types of kidnappers up until Mr Bergs death the "profiteer" and the "political", Al-Q have now entered the scene in full view and have become the third type "the punisher" there is no get of jail free card or negotiation with the punisher its a dead end street with these people.
I think most of the captured civilians have fallen into the hands of the political kidnappers its these prisoners you hear the least about they are kept as leverage or bargaining chips the FARC are past masters at this style of kidnapping.
My greatest concern is that kidnapping in Iraq will flourish and due to recent events the profiteer and political kidnapper's will play on the misdeeds of the last few days to re-enforce their demands.

[Beowulf]

...
The US-Government knew about these photos since several months, but did nothing agains the soldiers (reservists?) shown in there, untill now, because they have no other option due to political pressure from inside and outside the USA. Thats, what upsets the moslems - if the government would have reacted faster, the anger might not have been so huge, and with it the reactions ( = execution).

This is simply not true, and has been discussed multiple times.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14189&start=80


I want to make sure that everyone understands that the prison abuses were not leaked by the media, but were reported to the press by Centcom, as early as January.

To be sure, the media did not break this story.

It was the pictures that were leaked.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930


Jan. 13, 2004
Army Spc. Joseph M. Darby, an MP with the 800th at Abu Ghraib, first reports cases of abuse at the prison.

Jan. 16
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez orders a criminal investigation into reports of abuse at the prison by members of the brigade. The military also announces the investigation publicly.

Jan. 19
Sanchez orders a separate administrative investigation into the 800th MP Brigade. Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba is appointed to conduct that inquiry on Jan. 31.

Late January - early February
President Bush becomes aware of the charges sometime in this time period, according to White House spokesman Scott McClellan, although the spokesman has not pinpointed a date. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld tells Bush of the charges, McClellan has said.

Feb. 23
Seventeen U.S. soldiers suspended from duties pending outcome of investigation.

[Shiruzu]

I can fast see a pattern developing here with you,if this reminds you of the Third Reich ,of which I take it you lived under then to form such an expert opinion?.....No I didn't think so :bash:

But i'm damn sure, that i know more people, who lived under that regime, than you ;)
And i think, that i know more about the Third Reich, than you do. (no insult!)

And, yes, i criticized the unbalanced way, insults are tolerated. if you feel ofended by this, then just ban me, and you have your website back for your own.

[NcDeuce]

Mr Berg's parents blamed the Bush administration for his death , think mood there they lose son.I can really understand this.

Yeah...

and say I tore my ACL and broke my leg in a football game...that would be the coach's fault, right? Get a life, weedman. :slap:

[DrunkenMaster]

I for one certainly dont mind if you guys lock this thread.....from what ive gathered he was on his own accord over there trying to help the cause by doing what every he could... to me America and tyhe world has lost another good human being and it is sad to see some people not realizing that....I know it happens everyday but why not let him rest in peace and let his family mourn?

[duck]

I can fast see a pattern developing here with you,if this reminds you of the Third Reich ,of which I take it you lived under then to form such an expert opinion?.....No I didn't think so :bash:

But i'm damn sure, that i know more people, who lived under that regime, than you ;)
And i think, that i know more about the Third Reich, than you do. (no insult!)

And, yes, i criticized the unbalanced way, insults are tolerated. if you feel ofended by this, then just ban me, and you have your website back for your own.

Has anyone ever called you a "besserwisser", if I may ask?

[Tane Angle]

shall we place bets now on the fate of Keith Maupin, an American who remains in the hands of kidnappers?

Shut it. Do not say his name if you can't say it respectfully. Do you have any clue what you just said? What Iraqi cities have you been to lately? Or ever seen the western desert? Have you spent much time working KR? Are you a trained hostage negotiator? Or a crisis psychologist?

I'm all for people who aren't-BTDT's talking, I don't even like to use the term BTDT, but that comment was out of line.

And not that anyone will read this, but will continue on flaming, but Hamill and Berg were held by two very different groups. What one group did or didn't do has little to do with what the other group will do or won't do.

Now believe me, I stopped believing a long time ago that hostages ever made it out of captivity alive, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a good chance that Berg would have returned to America free.

Bacilluspolymyxa, very well-thought out post a few up. Have a good one all.

[Shiruzu]

I can fast see a pattern developing here with you,if this reminds you of the Third Reich ,of which I take it you lived under then to form such an expert opinion?.....No I didn't think so :bash:

But i'm damn sure, that i know more people, who lived under that regime, than you ;)
And i think, that i know more about the Third Reich, than you do. (no insult!)

And, yes, i criticized the unbalanced way, insults are tolerated. if you feel ofended by this, then just ban me, and you have your website back for your own.

Has anyone ever called you a "besserwisser", if I may ask?

Sure, it happens, if you step on other peoples feet ;) (mostly it was "klugscheisser"...)

[Tane Angle]

And I have a good mind to lock this thread, but I'm hoping that some apologies might be made first.

[Shiruzu]

...
The US-Government knew about these photos since several months, but did nothing agains the soldiers (reservists?) shown in there, untill now, because they have no other option due to political pressure from inside and outside the USA. Thats, what upsets the moslems - if the government would have reacted faster, the anger might not have been so huge, and with it the reactions ( = execution).

This is simply not true, and has been discussed multiple times.
[/quote]

But the red cross reported it to the US government in early 2004, or am i wrong? :|

And if the media has infos, what are the intelligence agencys doing, if they did'nt already knew?

[Shiruzu]

And I have a good mind to lock this thread, but I'm hoping that some apologies might be made first.

If you mean me, then tell me, what i have to apologize for, and i will do so.
(This is not meant as an offence - you might have got me wrong)

[incubz5]

Shriruzu,


Yes, after these photos, Hamill wouldn't have been treated the way he was.

Is that right now? You mean he might have been "treated" like these hostages were before those photos ever hit the new?

Thursday, April 15, 2004 Posted: 2:11 AM EDT (0611 GMT)

(CNN) -- The Italian foreign minister has confirmed that one of a group of four Italian hostages in Iraq has been executed.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/14/iraq.hostages.int/

[Shiruzu]

OK, but the chance for a "peacefull solution" would have been higher, without the photos. So i don't think ist nonsense to say, that Hamill couldn't have been freed with negotiations.
But he's home now, and thats important!

[incubz5]

OK, but the chance for a "peacefull solution" would have been higher, without the photos.

"peaceful solution"??????

Do you have any idea whatsoever of who we're dealing with here?

"Peaceful" this chief:

April 21, 2004 - A Danish man, who had been missing in Iraq for more than a week and who was believed to have been abducted, has been found dead, the Foreign Ministry said Wednesday.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4684713/

[Shiruzu]

You really try to get me wrong, don't you? :D

"peacefull solution" = take the japanese hostages as an example, they weren't killed.

What i wanted to say: If Hamill was still a prisoner and the Abu Ghuraib photos would not exist, a solution like the above one could have been possible.

[duck]

But 10+ Japanese were butchered with axes and machetes in 1997 by AQ members. How do you explain this?

"Thursday, May 13, 1999 Published at 20:28 GMT 21:28 UK


World: Middle East

Bin Laden 'behind Luxor massacre'

Four Egyptians and 58 tourists died in the attack


By Barbara Plett in Cairo

Egypt has told a Swiss delegation it believes the Saudi dissident, Osama bin Laden, financed the 1997 massacre of tourists in Luxor.

Four Egyptians and 58 tourists - 35 of them Swiss nationals - were killed in the attack by Muslim militants.

Switzerland's federal police chief, Urs Von Daeniken, told journalists that Egypt suspects the Luxor massacre was ordered by an Egyptian named Mustafa Hamza and carried out with funding from Osama bin Laden.

Mr Hamza is said to be a military leader of Egypt's largest Muslim militant group, the Gamaa al-Islamiyya, and appeared to have given either direct or indirect instructions for the attack from Sudan.

He is now believed to be living in Afghanistan, where Mr bin Laden has his headquarters.

The United States has accused Osama bin Laden of masterminding a terrorist network suspected of bombing two American embassies in Africa last year.

Washington responded with missile attacks on sites in Afghanistan and Sudan said to be linked to Mr bin Laden, but has failed to produce strong evidence to support the Sudanese connection.

Mr Von Daeniken said Switzerland was satisfied with Egypt's conclusion in light of the available evidence.

He was in Cairo with Switzerland's Attorney General to follow up the Egyptian investigation.

Eighteen months after the massacre, Egypt still has not given Switzerland a final report.

Officials here say the inquiry is still open, but have promised to provide written answers to a list of Swiss questions within 15 days.

Mr Von Daeniken confirmed that Egypt has not yet been able to identify the sixth terrorist - the other five were young men from southern Egypt, most of them students.

All were killed in unclear circumstances after the attack."

[incubz5]

Dude, is there one example in the year plus we've been there of an American hostage being let go?

[Shiruzu]

But 10+ Japanese were butchered with axes and machetes in 1997 by AQ members. How do you explain this?

Thats a different situation! These lifes could not have been saved by negotiation ;)

[Argyll]

But 10+ Japanese were butchered with axes and machetes in 1997 by AQ members. How do you explain this?

Thats a different situation! These lifes could not have been saved by negotiation ;)

How do you know that,post some proof that this was the case?

[Shiruzu]

Dude, is there one example in the year plus we've been there of an American hostage being let go?

That does not mean, that its not impossible. (in my opinion)

[duck]

Shiruzu,

But it's the same ilk of people you would be negotiating with.

[Shiruzu]

But 10+ Japanese were butchered with axes and machetes in 1997 by AQ members. How do you explain this?

Thats a different situation! These lifes could not have been saved by negotiation ;)

How do you know that,post some proof that this was the case?

They were attacked and killed, the attackers didn't mean anything else, than assault the group.
The hostage-situation in Iraque can be solved peacefully, which was shown with the japanese case.

[Shiruzu]

Shiruzu,

But it's the same ilk of people you would be negotiating with.

If it was this way, why have the japanese hostages been freed? :roll:

[Argyll]

Shiruzu,

But it's the same ilk of people you would be negotiating with.

If it was this way, why have the japanese hostages been freed? :roll:

someone has already answerd this ,there are 2 types of Kidnappers,the ones doing this for Financial gain,and those who are doing this for Political gain,the extremist and the opportunist,The Japanese TV crew were caught by Opportunists,as have some of the American's,then there is the extremists,who don't think twice about executing their hostages,and there have been quite a few hostages executed in Iraq in the past 4 months

[Shiruzu]

Sure, but many "Financial gain"-Extremists turned to "Political gain"-hostage-killing-extremists.

[5jumpchump]

This poor guy's parents blamed Bush for Al Queda chopping his head off??

What idiots. I don't care how greiving they are, what idiots etc etc etc

"Al Queda", you think Osama gave the orders? Probably not. I wouldn´t even count
on that this group of men had anything to do with Al Qaida, they could just as well
be wannabes. Even if they were Al Qaida (which I doubt) it was a independent
cell that took orders from nobody. It´s quite probable that in a subculture like that,
the leaders must show that he have balls and doesn´t only talk. So he can have
decided to kill Berg just to keep in charge of the small bandit group. It can be as
simply as that. Don´t be so naive that you blaim Osama for this.

Shows how much you know **** head . Al Abbu Al-Zwahiri , Al-quadas second in command ORDERED the killing . So **** off and paint some more rocks with your girlfreinds bitch .

[Shiruzu]

Shows how much you know **** head . Al Abbu Al-Zwahiri , Al-quadas second in command ORDERED the killing . So f*** off and paint some more rocks with your girlfreinds bitch .

Again i ask: How do you know, that it was Al-Zawhiri? It was posted on some extremist webpage, so this info is worth ****. :roll:

BTW, again nice insulting... great point for a diskussion.... :|

[Tane Angle]

Well, since no one payed attention the first time, I guess I'll say it-and be ignored-again.

Hamill and Berg were held by two very different groups. In KR-and AT/CT in general, it is extremely dangerous to make assumptions on what group B will do simply because group A happened to do something.

Take, for example, September 11th. Previously, hijackers had been willing to negotiate. So it was assumed in the opening hours of 9/11 that these hijackers would too try to negotiate, perhaps for something like US withdrawal from Saudi Arabia or a prisoner release. It turned out that they weren't there to negotiate. Thus, it is extremely dangerous to make assumptions that one group will do exactly what another group did.

People do understand the difference between the Sadrist, Ba'athists, and AQ, right? Or the difference between Shi'a and Sunni, much less Whahabi, Muslims (Should I bring up the Druze, Sufis, etc.?) Sadr and UBL are two very different people who don't particularly care for one another much.

Also, while both are big AQ personnel, there's a big difference between al-Zarqawi and al-Zawahiri(for starters, a few decades). And let's not even get into the difference between the different AQ strains, though there are seriously different strains.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Shiruzu]

Hamill and Berg were held by two very different groups.

And i say again, that there could have been a chance for Berg, if the abuse-photos didn't exist.
And i say again, that Hamill might have been killed, if the photos existed at the time, he was in detention.

[Argyll]

Hamill and Berg were held by two very different groups.

And i say again, that there could have been a chance for Berg, if the abuse-photos didn't exist.
And i say again, that Hamill might have been killed, if the photos existed at the time, he was in detention.

The photos did exist when he was in detention :cantbeli:
Can you please provide some proof in what you have just posted,cause you seem to know a lot more about this than people actually in Iraq,who are privvy to intelligence briefs daily?..........I'm really curious

[Shiruzu]

Hamill and Berg were held by two very different groups.

And i say again, that there could have been a chance for Berg, if the abuse-photos didn't exist.
And i say again, that Hamill might have been killed, if the photos existed at the time, he was in detention.

The photos did exist when he was in detention :cantbeli:
Can you please provide some proof in what you have just posted,cause you seem to know a lot more about this than people actually in Iraq,who are privvy to intelligence briefs daily?..........I'm really curious

Damn, you really try to get me wrong, whenever you can, don't you?

The photos were not made public, when Hamill was in detention - so for the extremists the photos "did not exist" ... :roll:

No, i have no private intelligence agency, thats just my opinion about what i've seen in the last few months.

[Tane Angle]

I'd like to believe that Berg had a chance. And I've told myself that many times. But in reality, Berg was a dead man the moment he was taken. He was dead abuse photos or no abuse photos. A better example, if people really want one, of what could be expected from Berg's captors was what happened to Daniel Pearl. Hamill's captors had something to gain. Berg's didn't. They were in it for the sake of killing him and releasing a video of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mr. Berg wasn't taken hostage. He endured a delayed murder.

[Shiruzu]

I don't believe, that they only captured him, to kill him afterwards - if they wanted to, they would have done it instantly.
They said, that they offered to negotiate with the Government, but this offer was refused and because of that, he was killed.

But if you have more information about this group, i would like you to share it.

[Trident-za]

Seeing as this is an emotive issue, I would like to put my response in before reading anything in this thread (I don't know if it's turned into a flamewar yet, but I want to avoid losing sight of my feelings by getting involved in personal "discussions").

This is the kind of thing which cannot be condoned in anyway, at anytime. It's completely despicable, almost inhuman - end of story.

OK, now I'll read the thread.....

[incubz5]

That does not mean, that its not impossible. (in my opinion)

ROFLOL!

Statistically speaking, it's impossible. If you're an American hostage in the hands of the insurgency, you're dead.

The UN thinks the same way you do. That's why they declined American troops for security at the Baghdad office. Didn't want to offend the insurgency.

Then the insurgency blew their sh@# away.

[Shiruzu]

That does not mean, that its not impossible. (in my opinion)

ROFLOL!

Statistically speaking, it's impossible. If you're an American hostage in the hands of the insurgency, you're dead.

The UN thinks the same way you do. That's why they declined American troops for security at the Baghdad office. Didn't want to offend the insurgency.

Then the insurgency blew their sh@# away.

ROFLOL! Yeah, they got pretty pwned... :roll: :(

[incubz5]

You don't negotiate w/ terrorists and thugs.

You kill them, set them running, or lock them up.

[Shiruzu]

How come, there were negotiations about a cease-fire with El-Sadrs troops in Fallujah?

/edit
And how were the japanese guys freed?

[Argyll]

How come, there were negotiations about a cease-fire with El-Sadrs troops in Fallujah?

/edit
And how were the japanese guys freed?

Wrong!!!
It was not Sadr's militia in Fallujah,Sadr's Militia are in Najaf ;) Sadr is a Shia muslim,Fallujah is a Sunni stronghold ;)
And I doubt you know the full details of the Negotiations surrounding Fallujah!

and the Japanese were not held by the extremists,you obviously are not reading what Tane is writing,I would if I were you,he's in a position closer to the situation than you are.
It 's looking like you are not willing to listen to other alternatives than your own............which are based on what?Media networks or personal experience?

[mustamato]

Media networks or personal experience?

The Japs paid of some million Yens to the hostage takers probably. My guess based
on alternative 1.

[Truthsayer]

From an political stance I would say:

Never negotiate with terrorists!


For some reason it feels like these thugs was 'flown in' from some off-Iiaq training-camp to be a part of this 'uprising' to make sure the country is thrown into a full-blown religions war. Some groups know that the only way to get power is by weapons and terror and are scared **** of any upcomming (secured and free) elections!

[incubz5]

Tane,

Good post and while yes, there are many disparate groups w/ a variety of motivations there has not been once instance in over a year of abductions in which an American hostage was released. Not one.

It was discovered months ago that terrorists were being paid the equivalent of $75k to come from Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc and kill Americans. The Shiite militias (al Sadr) are promising bloodbaths, the Fayedeen...forget it, they'll kill an American in an instant.

There will be no "negotiations" because there is nothing to negotiate. We're there to stay, they know it, and they also know we don't do deals. If you are an American in the hands of either the terrorists, the militias, the Republican Guard and Feyedeen leftoevers, your dead.

[duck]

From an political stance I would say:

Never negotiate with terrorists!


For some reason it feels like these thugs was 'flown in' from some off-Iiaq training-camp to be a part of this 'uprising' to make sure the country is thrown into a full-blown religions war. Some groups know that the only way to get power is by weapons and terror and are scared **** of any upcomming (secured and free) elections!

Ah, the voice of reason. Next step, what is the only chance for the fundamentalist groups (Al-Sadr etc.) to gain political power?

Answer: By preventing the reconstruction effort and keeping people in the midst of chaos and poverty. And the standard guerilla tactic of forcing the opponent to ante up the use of violence. Every destroyed building and killed civilian brings Al-Sadr and his kind one step closer to power.

One step further, if the Coalition forces withdraw, who has power backed by guns in Iraq? Who has the most experienced killers to eliminate all political opponents? And the family of any Iraq Defence Force member who opposes their plans?

Unholy alliance forming?

[Truthsayer]

I'm not sure, but did you oppose my posts by qouting it?

Your first line seemed sarcastic.

[duck]

No pun intended. Good post.

[Argyll]

Media networks or personal experience?

The Japs paid of some million Yens to the hostage takers probably. My guess based
on alternative 1.

From a political POV Musty I feel you are correct,the politics of the Japanese going there was huge,and I too believe that their Government or somone with influence and Money made sure the hostages were not "harmed"

[DrunkenMaster]

I'd like to believe that Berg had a chance. And I've told myself that many times. But in reality, Berg was a dead man the moment he was taken. He was dead abuse photos or no abuse photos. A better example, if people really want one, of what could be expected from Berg's captors was what happened to Daniel Pearl. Hamill's captors had something to gain. Berg's didn't. They were in it for the sake of killing him and releasing a video of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mr. Berg wasn't taken hostage. He endured a delayed murder.
well put

[Truthsayer]

No pun intended. Good post.

Oh...never mind my post then. *turns off the paranoid-radar* ;)


For the others - let me say this again, since it get's lost in this forum on so many times:
I support the troops in Iraq!

Infact, I think most euros in this forum does. Don't let arguments over politics be more then it is. I don't think odb (american) isn't supporting the troops, and he seems to have an chip in his shoulder for Bush. Alright people?

[incubz5]

For the "Some insugents will actually let American hostages go" crowd.

We have one American hostage, a PFC Marine I believe, currently in the hands of Iraqi insurgents (as opposed to flat-out terrorist insurgents). His captors want Iraqi POWs released in order to secure his release.

Anyone want to start calling the fate of this poor young man?

I'll be the first.

Dead within a month.

[Durandal]

Mr. Berg wasn't taken hostage. He endured a delayed murder.

Good posts Tane...as always.

[Durandal]

Anyone want to start calling the fate of this poor young man?

I'll be the first.

Dead within a month.

His name is Keith M. Maupin. Since you cannot even remember his name...

...let me be the first to say SHUT THE F*CK UP. Jesus man. Its one thing to talk about someone who has already died/been killed but this guy is still out there.

He is from my hometown area and and I suggest you be a little bit more goddamn respectful.

[Truthsayer]

Anyone want to start calling the fate of this poor young man?

I'll be the first.

Dead within a month.

Never ever jinx it by talking about death of an hostage like this!

Always stay positiv and let the prays be with him and his family.

[incubz5]

Durandal,

I would think this were he my own brother. You can either face reality or you can hide under a rock.

As for 'respect' for these young men and women who pay the ultimate price, respect starts with realizing that their job is to fight the enemy and defeat him. Those who don't understand the enemy or who prop up the enemy or who sow disinformation and propaganda about our efforts, or who want to "negotiate" with the enemy...it is these sentiments that undermine the actions of our soldiers and spit in the face of their sacrifices.

I could care less that you're offended because I know he'll be dead or is already dead. Direct your anger at his butchers and those waiting to butcher the next Keith Maupin. This entire country could use a dose of that medicine, given that the media is in full "Defeat Bush" mode and broadcasting 24x7 about "tortures" Iraqi POWs had to endure at the hands of ours solders and all manner of partisan propaganda. In fact, the entire world is in a hate-America thrall over this stupdendous victory.

[incubz5]

Truthsayer,

I would gladly have my right arm cut off so that he could live.

Like I told the other poster, you can either choose reality or a spit of sand to stick your head in.

The only reason Lynch is alive is because her kidnappers were busy with the war, they were fighting a rearguard action.

Know thy enemy. At best, they will use him to strike a deal. There will be no deal.

[farmgirl]

Hate to politicize this, but Berg's horrible death probably just won the next election for George Bush.

If it happens again, I'll even wager money on it.

American's have been sanitized from seeing this. It is ALL over radio, TV, and the internet.

I have three friends that just checked with a recruiting office (all former reserve officers and over the age of 33) wantiing to know what their options would be and if they could be sent to an active duty unit in Iraq.

I know this is might not be happening everywhere, but I would be curious to see what enlistment numbers are.

People are going to rally around this horrible event.

don't count your eggs before they have hatched ;)


It's okay to count eggs... just not chickens before they hatch... ;)