Falluja victory...

[TheBlackHand]

...for them.

Old news, but interesting anyhow.


Celebrations break out in Fallujah as US marines enter rebel Iraqi city

Mon May 10, 1:39 PM ET Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!


FALLUJAH, Iraq (AFP) - Celebratory gunfire ripped the Sunni Muslim bastion of Fallujah as US marines in a dozen armoured vehicles entered the war-battered city on a symbolic tour and met with local leaders.

Iraqi police and masked insurgents shot off rounds and people flooded the streets, waving Iraqi national flags and honking their car horns in jubilation over what they mistakenly believed was a deal between the marines and the city's leaders to scale back the US presence in Fallujah.

Locals said they believed if the city was quiet during the convoy tour marines would leave Fallujah for good.

But the marines immediately crushed the notion and said they would keep their positions around the edges of the city, rocked by the worst fighting in Iraq (news - web sites) since the US invasion last spring.

Major General James Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, led the 20-vehicle convoy of marines, police and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC) into the heart of the city, with ICDC members waving the old Iraqi flag.

The marines headed into meetings with the city's mayor and within an hour Iraqis erupted in joyous celebration as people tumbled into their cars and started their own impromptu victory parades.

Marine spokesman Major T.V. Johnson said Mattis reviewed plans with Fallujah's mayor and tribal sheikhs for establishing "conditions so we can get in there and start spending money on the city on various projects."

But Johnson expressed befuddlement about the swirling rumours among Fallujans that the marines were on the verge of a further withdrawal.

"Eventually we want to recede to the horizon ... but just because we have one meeting in town it doesn't mean we're leaving Fallujah."

But Johnson's word would have fallen on deaf ears in the city awash in a carnival-like atmosphere.

A caravan of some 20 vehicles including trucks full of young men waving AK-47 assault rifles toured around the centre of the city, blaring their horns as people gathered on the street to greet them.

"Saddam, your name shocks America," shouted a group of 10 men being driven in the bucket of a digger in the middle of the convoy. One of the flags on a van proclaimed: "Hail the heroes".

The sound of gunfire crackled in the area as the convoy passed by burnt-out cars, damaged homes and mosques, with rubble strewn around a minaret, in a reminder of April's fighting.

Bilal Mohammed, 23, was standing on the front seat of a BMW car with his head outside the sun roof, holding an AK-47.

"I feel like every Muslim Arab is feeling today, that we have a victory that God himself gave us -- a victory over the unbeliever Americans. This is the end now, and it will be much better than before."

Along the road, Yussef Mosaif, who draped himself in the traditional red, green, black and white Iraqi flag, said: "America is the enemy of the Fallujah people and will be till the end of our lives."

On the city's main street, police Sergeant Yassin Hamed said: "This is a victory for the people of Fallujah and for all the Iraqi people over the Americans."

Since the marines struck a deal with former Iraqi generals at the end of April, Fallujah has been patroled by Iraqi police and the newly-formed Fallujah Brigade, an ad-hoc force of army veterans, many of them with links to Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s old Baath party.

Until now, marines have manned joint checkpoints with Iraqi security teams on the city's periphery, but Monday's convoy stood as an effective test of the calm ruling Fallujah since the police, ICDC and Fallujah Brigade took over responsibility here last week.

Last month's fighting, prompted by the March 31 murder and mutilation of four US security contractors on the city's main street, left hundreds of Iraqis and scores of marines dead.

The convoy could herald a greater pullback of marines from the edge of the city and accelerate the process of restoring normality and pumping 77 million dollars of reconstruction funds into Fallujah.

Fallujah's northwestern neighborhood of Jolan remains a haven of insurgents and marines are deployed, alongside ICDC, outside the district.

The coalition wants the Fallujah Brigade and police to round up the insurgents' heavy weapons and start taking steps to find the culprits behind the March 31 murders, as well as a February 14 attack on Iraqi police and ICDC that killed more than 20 Iraqi officers.

I know the analogy doesn't hold much water...but this Fallujah mess reminds me of Khe Sanh. The part where we bulldozed the base and walked away. Can't help but thinking "what the f*ck was that all about?"

[rokus2595]

Fallujah Rebels Celebrate 'Victory'
by Dahr Jamail; The NewStandard; May 12, 2004

Fallujah, Iraq, May 10 - The US 1st Marine Division sent a small convoy into Fallujah today in order to meet with the mayor and show cooperation with the Iraqi Police (IP) and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC). But the supposed show of force was a pre-arranged exercise. Immediately following the Marines' departure, the embattled city erupted into what could only be described as a huge victory celebration over the US military.Residents were joined by fully armed resistance fighters who intermingled freely with uniformed IP and ICDC personnel.

At roughly 11:00 this morning, several American Humvees and Stryker vehicles entered the downtown area of Fallujah, accompanied by pick-up trucks full of members of both the IP and ICDC, who traveled in front of, beside, and behind the military convoy. The small convoy slowly made its way inside the heavily blockaded Tribal Council compound.

A 1st Marine Division press release about the exercise says Marines "traveled into Fallujah today to exercise freedom of movement and meet with city officials."

Abdul Rahman, a captain in the ICDC, explained the Marines' exercise as a negotiated concession. "There were negotiations between the people of Fallujah and the occupation forces," Captain Rahman said. "The plan is for the Americans to pull all of their troops out of the city after they get this one patrol."

After pausing to look at the military vehicles inside the compound, Rahman added, "We want them out of our country."

Nervous residents of the recently besieged city watched quietly from sidewalks as the vehicles sat for about 30 minutes inside the Tribal Council complex, behind concrete barriers some eight feet high. The scores of Iraqi Police and Iraqi Civil Defense Core members who had accompanied that patrol now guarded the building.

In the Marines' press release, 1st Lieutenant Eric Knapp, the Public Affairs Officer for the 1st Marine Division, states, "Cooperation between Coalition and Iraqi Forces in Fallujah is symbolic of the solidarity between all who share a vision of a secure and prosperous Iraq."

But at least some members of those Iraqi forces saw the situation differently.

Just outside the compound walls, Alla Hamdalide, a member of the ICDC forces said his unit was required to protect the Marines. "We brought the Americans from the bridge into the city," he said. "They couldn't even come in here alone. The victory for Fallujah remains."

Despite the extremely tense and somber atmosphere outside, Major General James Mattis met with the mayor of Fallujah inside the compound where they reportedly discussed plans to rebuild the city.

After only half an hour inside the compound, again with scores of IP and ICDC riding in pick-up trucks and surrounding the Marines' vehicles, the patrol slowly made its way back out of the city. No gunfire was reported during the event.

Immediately after the patrol left the area, spontaneous celebrations erupted as crowds of residents gathered in the street and began chanting and waving banners. Members of both the Iraqi Police and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps joined in the celebration, waving their guns in the air and flashing the two-fingered "Victory" sign.

An elderly Fallujah resident riding in the back of a truck, waving a traditional Iraqi flag, yelled, "Today is the first day of the war against the Americans! This is a victory for us over the Americans!"

Resistance fighters, called mujahideen ("freedom fighters") by locals, mixed in with the crowd of unarmed civilians, police and Iraqi soldiers. Brandishing rocket propelled grenade launchers (RPGs), Kalashnikov assault rifles and hand grenades, they paraded on trucks as thousands of residents began to move up and down the main street in an impromptu victory parade.

US military officials have admitted that among the Iraqi forces making up the Fallujah Brigade, which they say will be relied upon to maintain security in the city, are an unknown number of guerillas who confronted US Marines just last month at the peak of fighting here. The new brigade is led in part by Ba'athist officers who served in the military under ousted dictator Saddam Hussein.

Ahmed Saadoun Jassin, a uniformed Iraqi Policeman hired and trained by the US occupation authority, didn't bother containing his joy at seeing the Marines leave. "I can't describe to you the happiness I feel right now," he said. "This is a victory for Islam."

When asked about cooperating with the Marines, Jassin explained, "This was the deal that was negotiated. They couldn't stay in Fallujah for over one hour, which they didn't."

Shop owners threw handfuls of candy at the passing crowds. Many of the people celebrating waved old Iraqi flags, while some held up copies of the Qur'an.

Music blared from mosques as vehicles carrying both armed mujahideen and celebrating residents of Fallujah made their way up and down the main street of the city. Members of the IP, ICDC and several of the resistance fighters were seen firing their guns into the air.

The 1st Marine Division made no mention of the agreed restrictions Iraqi police and soldiers said were placed on the Marines to ensure them safe travel in their press release.

"Fallujans reportedly waved to the Marines as they made their way in and out of the city... Freedom of movement in Fallujah, like that demonstrated by today's visit, is a crucial component in the process of setting the conditions necessary to rebuild and revitalize the city," wrote Lt. Knapp. "This display of teamwork serves notice to those who violently oppose stability in Iraq; they are nothing more than unwanted barriers on the road to a truly free Iraq."

One resistance fighter riding on the roof of a truck while wielding an RPG stated, "They [the Marines] just made the people of the world laugh at them. But I think they will come back, because they don't keep their word."

Dahr Jamail is Iraq Correspondent for The NewStandard, http://newstandardnews.net.

[Bootneck]

Ah the Arabs and their "victories"...

Funny, and pathetic.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yep. Don't forget they won Gulf War I as well...

[Obergefreiter]

I don't know, they may have lost the battle, but they may have "won the war". They still hold the battlefield, and Bush lacks the political or moral will to finish them off.

(yes I am a Bush suporter, but he F*ed this one up)

[Trident-za]

I don't know, they may have lost the battle, but they may have "won the war". They still hold the battlefield

Unfortunately, this is true. Personally, I still think the military did the right thing in the "larger view". The last thing the coalition needs at the same time as the prisoner debacle is hundreds of dead civilians (whoever kills them).

This is a 4th generation war, remember.... the physical battlefield is NOT always the deciding battlefield. For an older example, look at Vietnam - the military wracked up phenomenal body counts and kill ratios... and you what? It was/is completely irrelevent. I'm not happy with the "new" way of war... but its still a fact. You can still lose a war if you have a 10000:1 kill ratio in every battle. Something to think about......

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You know, I can understand the inhabitants wanting to save face after the continual ass-whompings that they get. It has to be hard; to believe so fiercely in something, to try so hard - and to get your ass handed to you time after time. They could be forced to eat **** sandwiches & then brag about how they got to choose the bread. But the fact is that they can polish this turd any way they want - but outside of their little circle of denial, it still ain't gonna shine.

[fdt]

For almost a year everyone in CPA has turned a blind eye on Fallujah. Everything was normal. In that time the sh*t has mounted in this damned town. Then the soldiers and contractors were spectacularly killed. Not a first time though. Suddenly someone decided ... send the marines to sweep. They've gone they were fighting. They were killing, they were being killed. No sensible objectives were put none were accomplished. Then there came a decision to let the saddam's butcher to take over. he came in with old Saddam's flag and in old Saddam's uniform... Was it all about this? Has it been an goal of CPA to let this happen? Why did they sent the marines in then? Wouldn't it be easier to do it at the beginning, instead of sending there soldiers to die?

Anyone care to talk about the moronic CPA actions and negligence that led all the coalition into this sh*thole of today?

[Argyll]

Fallujah was always a ****hole,well before the Blackwater incident.
The CPA did not ignore it,they had reconstruction teams there ;)

[fdt]

Fallujah was always a ****hole,well before the Blackwater incident.
The CPA did not ignore it,they had reconstruction teams there ;)It looks like they succeded with this "reconstruction" well beyond their initial intentions... Saddam's general in Saddam's uniform.... Year after victorious campaign. Saddam behind bars. His sons dead. Ehhhh. Next step: Saddam entering Baghdad on white horse with Paul Bremer with a sausage in his ass, handing him over the city's keys. :cantbeli: Don't laugh, because You may witness this... :|

[Argyll]

Fallujah was always a ****hole,well before the Blackwater incident.
The CPA did not ignore it,they had reconstruction teams there ;)It looks like they succeded with this "reconstruction" well beyond their initial intentions... Saddam's general in Saddam's uniform.... Year after victorious campaign. Saddam behind bars. His sons dead. Ehhhh. Next step: Saddam entering Baghdad on white horse with Paul Bremer handing him over the city's keys. :cantbeli: Don't laugh, because You may witness this... :|

Not in a million years,the Shai's and the Kurds will not see Saddam live for his crimes against them.

Lets not forget Fallujah is the heart of the "Sunni triangle",90% of the attacks on the coalition are from Sunni's who have more to lose than the Kurds and the Shia's respectivley,sure there are the Sadr guys.but are not representative of the Shia population.
Also take a look at the North hardly a peep there,one or 2 incidents,but not to the scale of the "Sunni region".......coincidence?

[Truthsayer]

The north, especially the kurd-region isn't going to do much (unless provoced by some extremist-groups*) since they are finally getting what they want (atleast for a period of time). They are self-sufficiant and don't have an dictator out to get them.

The only question is now how Turkey is going to react.


* = Terrorists-groups that wants to throw the country into a full-blown civil war will not doubt attack kurrish targets in the next 3 months to anger them into taking action.

[fdt]

Fallujah was always a ****hole,well before the Blackwater incident.
The CPA did not ignore it,they had reconstruction teams there ;)It looks like they succeded with this "reconstruction" well beyond their initial intentions... Saddam's general in Saddam's uniform.... Year after victorious campaign. Saddam behind bars. His sons dead. Ehhhh. Next step: Saddam entering Baghdad on white horse with Paul Bremer handing him over the city's keys. :cantbeli: Don't laugh, because You may witness this... :|

Not in a million years,the Shai's and the Kurds will not see Saddam live for his crimes against them.

Lets not forget Fallujah is the heart of the "Sunni triangle",90% of the attacks on the coalition are from Sunni's who have more to lose than the Kurds and the Shia's respectivley,sure there are the Sadr guys.but are not representative of the Shia population.
Also take a look at the North hardly a peep there,one or 2 incidents,but not to the scale of the "Sunni region".......coincidence?
Kurdish region is an exception that should be a rule:
First: They've learned the 1991 lesson well. The lesson is DIY.
Second: They don't take pictures in their prisons.
Shia region could follow the "Northern" pattern but there was no political will to do it. Instead of nursing the Shias, CPA should let them stand on their own feet. Problem was of course Washington's Iranofobia, that IMHO is much exaggerated as it comes to real influence of Teheran on the Iraqi shias. Sistani would get rid of Sadr within few days if given a free hand.

Sunni region is a different story. IMHO stick and carrot tactics should be applied there... but look what happened. First they did nothing. Then they applied stick only. Now Yanks are withdrawing, teaching those bastar*s that violence pays off.

What is to change after 30th of June 2004? Nothing or almost nothing. The new "independent" authorities are not able to keep their own toilet safe. Who are their followers? Who will fight for those guys? Who will keep the state running? Who will keep the nw Police and Iraqi Army from defecting to the (politically and militarily) stronger factions? etc. etc. Where the heck is any vision? Where is some kinda plan? Who can really tell what's gonna happen in a week from today (not mentioning longer perspective)? All I can see today is... "wait, let's keep here for some time and hope that situation will clear itself". Depressing sh*thole. :|

[Argyll]

The north, especially the kurd-region isn't going to do much (unless provoced by some extremist-groups*) since they are finally getting what they want (atleast for a period of time). They are self-sufficiant and don't have an dictator out to get them.

The only question is now how Turkey is going to react.


* = Terrorists-groups that wants to throw the country into a full-blown civil war will not doubt attack kurrish targets in the next 3 months to anger them into taking action.

And that is a very very good point!It's only a matter of time before the Kurds will claim autonomy,and whilst the rest of Iraq is in turmoil the Kurds are laughing all the way to their oilfileds,this is another reason for the Coalition having to dig deep and ride out the storm,should they leave, Turkey WILL invade the North of Iraq and sieze the oilfileds,and annex that region,this will cause a knock on effect because Turkey is also part of Nato.The Kurds will then resort to the same tactics employed by the Sunni's,and will begin striking back at Targets inside Turkey,and the history between the 2 will see many casualties,Turkey in turn will turn to it's NATO allies and ask for Military assistance,of which they are obliged to do,and then it all goes **** shape,when the US and UK and Possibly Poland Ignore the requests causing the French and Germans to question the commitment of these 2 countries,together with the other NATO countries effectively asking these 3 to leave NATO,which will become disolved into the New European Democratic Orginisation................sounds far fetched......or does it?

[ibstolidude]

Fallujah was always a ****hole,well before the Blackwater incident.
The CPA did not ignore it,they had reconstruction teams there ;)
Booyah - correct - US Civil Affairs teams had been in that area immediately following the war. If they are there then certainly some elements of security were there.

[duck]

The north, especially the kurd-region isn't going to do much (unless provoced by some extremist-groups*) since they are finally getting what they want (atleast for a period of time). They are self-sufficiant and don't have an dictator out to get them.

The only question is now how Turkey is going to react.


* = Terrorists-groups that wants to throw the country into a full-blown civil war will not doubt attack kurrish targets in the next 3 months to anger them into taking action.

And that is a very very good point!It's only a matter of time before the Kurds will claim autonomy,and whilst the rest of Iraq is in turmoil the Kurds are laughing all the way to their oilfileds,this is another reason for the Coalition having to dig deep and ride out the storm,should they leave, Turkey WILL invade the North of Iraq and sieze the oilfileds,and annex that region,this will cause a knock on effect because Turkey is also part of Nato.The Kurds will then resort to the same tactics employed by the Sunni's,and will begin striking back at Targets inside Turkey,and the history between the 2 will see many casualties,Turkey in turn will turn to it's NATO allies and ask for Military assistance,of which they are obliged to do,and then it all goes **** shape,when the US and UK and Possibly Poland Ignore the requests causing the French and Germans to question the commitment of these 2 countries,together with the other NATO countries effectively asking these 3 to leave NATO,which will become disolved into the New European Democratic Orginisation................sounds far fetched......or does it?

This sounds interesting. Wouldn't Greece block any aid to Turkey in a conflict situation of this nature? I believe PKK leader Ozcalan(?) was protected by Greek intelligence for a long period before his capture?

[Truthsayer]

This sounds interesting. Wouldn't Greece block any aid to Turkey in a conflict situation of this nature? I believe PKK leader Ozcalan(?) was protected by Greek intelligence for a long period before his capture?

Very hard to say, but given the history between the nations, they will not be eager to help eachother if they have a choice anyway. The election as to what should happend to Cypria clearly shows this.

PKK is labeled an terrorist-organisation in Turkey anyway and an free, autonomous, state will most likely not be accepted by them - primarly since it might de-stabilise the region in south of Turkey in the area close to the Iraqi border.

[Argyll]

The north, especially the kurd-region isn't going to do much (unless provoced by some extremist-groups*) since they are finally getting what they want (atleast for a period of time). They are self-sufficiant and don't have an dictator out to get them.

The only question is now how Turkey is going to react.


* = Terrorists-groups that wants to throw the country into a full-blown civil war will not doubt attack kurrish targets in the next 3 months to anger them into taking action.

And that is a very very good point!It's only a matter of time before the Kurds will claim autonomy,and whilst the rest of Iraq is in turmoil the Kurds are laughing all the way to their oilfileds,this is another reason for the Coalition having to dig deep and ride out the storm,should they leave, Turkey WILL invade the North of Iraq and sieze the oilfileds,and annex that region,this will cause a knock on effect because Turkey is also part of Nato.The Kurds will then resort to the same tactics employed by the Sunni's,and will begin striking back at Targets inside Turkey,and the history between the 2 will see many casualties,Turkey in turn will turn to it's NATO allies and ask for Military assistance,of which they are obliged to do,and then it all goes **** shape,when the US and UK and Possibly Poland Ignore the requests causing the French and Germans to question the commitment of these 2 countries,together with the other NATO countries effectively asking these 3 to leave NATO,which will become disolved into the New European Democratic Orginisation................sounds far fetched......or does it?

This sounds interesting. Wouldn't Greece block any aid to Turkey in a conflict situation of this nature? I believe PKK leader Ozcalan(?) was protected by Greek intelligence for a long period before his capture?

Yes more than likely,but what did you make of the scenario,sounds very plausable don't you think?

[fdt]

.......... effectively asking these 3 to leave NATO,which will become disolved into the New European Democratic Orginisation................sounds far fetched......or does it? Politicians may look, talk and act like complete morons... but the beauty of democracy (despite all it's ugliness ;) ) is that Politics in democratic countries is a team work. If the power was all in the hands of Bush, Chirac and Schroder... it could happen as You "fetch", but it will not.

So Your stick is not far fetched, but fetched beyond the wall of "likeliness".... no politician can retrieve it. ;)

[Argyll]

.......... effectively asking these 3 to leave NATO,which will become disolved into the New European Democratic Orginisation................sounds far fetched......or does it? Politicians may look, talk and act like complete morons... but the beauty of democracy (despite all it's ugliness ;) ) is that Politics in democratic countries is a team work. If the power was all in the hands of Bush, Chirac and Schroder... it could happen as You "fetch", but it will not.

So Your stick is not far fetched, but fetched beyond the wall of "likeliness".... no politician can retrieve it. ;)

watch this space in 3- 5 years time ;)

[duck]

Argyll,

I think trade and EADS projects like the Eurofighter and A 400 M will save the day. France and Germany could turn to China and Russia, but those two countries are dependend on the US for their exports. China for consumer goods and Russia for commodities. Britain will most likely play the role of a mediator, let's hope you have a new untarnished Blair in the ranks.

Turkey could well fall apart with a bang.

[Argyll]

Argyll,

I think trade and EADS projects like the Eurofighter and A 400 M will save the day. France and Germany could turn to China and Russia, but those two countries are dependend on the US for their exports. China for consumer goods and Russia for commodities. Britain will most likely play the role of a mediator, let's hope you have a new untarnished Blair in the ranks.

Turkey could well fall apart with a bang.

There are talks and rumours about the UK dumping the Eurofighter project,it's been nothing but an albatross around the necks of Whitehall.

[fdt]

watch this space in 3- 5 years time ;)

You bet I will... ;)

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/JUNE30/June30gifs/summers.gif

[Argyll]

rofl

[duck]

Argyll,

I think trade and EADS projects like the Eurofighter and A 400 M will save the day. France and Germany could turn to China and Russia, but those two countries are dependend on the US for their exports. China for consumer goods and Russia for commodities. Britain will most likely play the role of a mediator, let's hope you have a new untarnished Blair in the ranks.

Turkey could well fall apart with a bang.

There are talks and rumours about the UK dumping the Eurofighter project,it's been nothing but an albatross around the necks of Whitehall.

Then it's just trade...

[fdt]

One more cartoon for Argyll... about far fetching... ;) You'll like it.

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/2003Thompson/Thompson-best/YIR-3.gif

[incubz5]

The French defined themselves in the modern world by capitulating to Adolph Hitler. The Vichy Regime far surpassed even the Nazi's expectations for collaboration, and sent over 100,000 Jews into Nazi deathcamps.

I think Donald Rumsfeld summed it up best when he said: "Going to war without the French is like going hunting without your accordian."

[seruriermarshal]

I think , allies and terrorists the draw , in Falluja , but it's not win , only a draw .

[talib_killa34]

"We want them out of our country."



I got news for you, we want them out too.

The soldiers and marines want out.

If we leave now though, where will your country be at?

Just a question.