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Threelions
05-12-2004, 03:25 PM
I'm trying to write an Anthropology paper but i cant find certain evidence to argue my point. I need a link ( or links) that tell the average weight carried by modern infanteers, and the weight carried by WWI or WWII infanteers. Any help would be appreciated!

Cheers

scm77
05-12-2004, 03:48 PM
It's will obviously very on what mission they are doing, but I read somewhere that the average infatryman in afghanistan was carrying 110 lbs. I have no idea how accurate that is though.

NcDeuce
05-12-2004, 03:58 PM
Over the next few weeks i think Kerry will try and drift away from War, and move towards domestic issues. why? Because the bBush camp only has one platform for re-election, and that is war. If kerry shows the US public that he is a president for the USA and not for WAR then he will stand a very good chance of winning

Surely with all of your knowledge and insight into Bush's sole reason for running for President of the United States, wouldn't you think that Three Lions would know about how much equipment someone who goes to war carries? rofl

Cheers

crazyman
05-12-2004, 04:10 PM
there was an article awhile back in maxim (yea i know, not the greatest source) on the topic...WW1/2 infantrymen were carrying somewhere in the range of 20-40 lbs of equipment. obviously WW2 was more towards the higher end, and WW1 towards the lower.

scm77
05-12-2004, 04:19 PM
20-40 pounds. That is extremely light.

Steve Andrews
05-12-2004, 04:25 PM
I would expect that the weights carried would be about the same.
Modern equipment is lighter - but, as every infantryman knows, that means you can carry more of it!!!!

DANJANOU
05-12-2004, 04:53 PM
I remember reading an article way back ( 10 years ago or so) in the Infantry Journal where the author did list the relative weights of infantry soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea and (then) modern grunt.

The weight kept going up mainly because of the gear. Cdn troops in WW1 and WW2 didn't have framed rucks with sleeping bags (inner/outer) ranger blanket shelter half, air mattress, spare boots etc. They carried a small pack and their basic webbing.

Also look at the weapons carried, the basic load (number of mags/rds) for the C7 is more than the FNC1 which in turn was more than the old SMLE and 60 rds.

Threelions
05-12-2004, 04:54 PM
Over the next few weeks i think Kerry will try and drift away from War, and move towards domestic issues. why? Because the bBush camp only has one platform for re-election, and that is war. If kerry shows the US public that he is a president for the USA and not for WAR then he will stand a very good chance of winning

Surely with all of your knowledge and insight into Bush's sole reason for running for President of the United States, wouldn't you think that Three Lions would know about how much equipment someone who goes to war carries? rofl

Cheers

Thanks for your constructive post! My comment that you quoted was a political comment, not a military comment. I served in the infantry for a few years and remember lugging 60lbs, but this is in no way close to what i would expect a person to carry in combat.

Cheers

martinexsquaddie
05-12-2004, 06:17 PM
there was a comment on arrse.co.uk awhile back on this comment.
someone said talk to some serious reennactors typical grunts load not changed much since roman times around 60lb plus maxing out around 12Olb. theres a limit to what somebody can carry for an extended period of tme.
so 60lb is probably about standard :(

EchoSierra2
05-12-2004, 06:56 PM
mistake

EchoSierra2
05-12-2004, 07:01 PM
there was a comment on arrse.co.uk awhile back on this comment.
someone said talk to some serious reennactors typical grunts load not changed much since roman times around 60lb plus maxing out around 12Olb. theres a limit to what somebody can carry for an extended period of tme.
so 60lb is probably about standard :(Just spoke to a good friend of mine who was USMC EOD and he said that back when he booted it was around 80lbs. They use to **** that !@#$ all day. He said that it was probably only going to get heavier as the years went on. Go figure. With all these alloys, fibers and composites, you would think that it would be lighter. But yeah martin 60 sounds a bit light for '04 but it's close enough.

EchoSierra2
05-12-2004, 07:05 PM
It's will obviously very on what mission they are doing, but I read somewhere that the average infatryman in afghanistan was carrying 110 lbs. I have no idea how accurate that is though.Pretty damn Close brother in the late 80's and early 90's I have been told that it was around 80. I was told that it would probably get hevier as the years went on. So 110 sounds about right.

eggroll
05-12-2004, 09:02 PM
sheesh

weapon (for the sake of argument) 8 lbs AR15 loaded with small optic (ala AP COMPM)
ammunition 12 mags 13lbs

water 5qts (argument 1Lt roughly equivalent to a 1qt) 10lbs

LBE empty (3 lbs)
FAK = (1lbs)
clothing (on person) 3.5lbs
Boots (1.5lbs)
Foodstuff (2 lbs)
signal equipment (2lbs)
radio (1-2lbs)
knife/bayo (1lbs)
misc equipment (10lbs)
mission specific equipment (10-50lbs)

and all the sudden it hits HOME.... an interesting thing starts to appear over the course of review is that you will find load ranging from 1/4-1/2 the infantryman's bodyweight.


BTW if you still havent figured it out, 50-100lbs of lightweight equipment and mayhem gear is STILL 50-100lbs of equipment


2BTW - My last tactical pistol class, I had on body armor (4lbs) 5L of water, clothing, Glock 19, 6 mags, 200rnds loose, misc belt gear. Just shooting in front of a target I had on close to 25lbs of gear and I felt UNencumbered.

EGG

bishop1
05-12-2004, 10:35 PM
Well in WW1/2 they didnt have any kind of body armor or anything i dont think did they? Where as in Korea/Nam they had the flak jackets, and now they have the Inteceptor or F.S.B.E. armor, and that in itself probably weights 20lbs or so

Germaine
05-12-2004, 10:36 PM
on average for me i carry 80lbs and plus (with Basic ammo and water) we usually carry more depending on the situation

Michael RVR
05-12-2004, 10:37 PM
I probably carry at least 35kgs, .. sometimes probably up to around 45kgs but by that point you dont think about it.

Another good thing to not think about is how much that Mag 58 weighs.. ;)

Germaine
05-12-2004, 10:53 PM
kinda hard not to think about the weight after x amount of km until ur shoulders go numb ;)

Laconian
05-13-2004, 03:08 PM
If possible try to get a copy of SLA Marshall's The Soldier's Load & the Mobility of A Nation. It is out of print but used to be manadatory reading (or at least on the Professional Reading List) at the US Army Infantry School at Benning. My last copy was lost in a PCS move.

Marhsall studied the weight the average infantryman carried in WWII. As previously stated, individual soldier weights were (are) mission related. The average GI usually carried an M1 (9lbs), ammo (approx 20-30 pds), ammo for the sqd/plt crew served wpn (20-30 pounds), either a mine or 60mm mortar round for the company mortars, water, chow, extra socks, toilet articles, helmet, e-tool, rucksack. For a total of about 60-80 lbs. Marshall further stated that this amount load actually so fatigued soldiers (especially after several days "in the line") that many became combat ineffective due to fatigue. Also, he found that fatigue can lead to fear and fear can lead to hormonal changes in the body (now we know it as the sympathetic nervous system activation) that make soldiers (all people) do stupid stuff. He argued then that a individual load should not be more than 60 lbs.

Unfortunately, although everybody read it, nobody followed it and infantry (light infantry nowadays as opposed to mechanized guys) in Korea, RVN, elsewhere and today are humping easily over 80 pounds. Hey all that neat gear has weight and needs batteries too.Rgrs and SFrs usually carry way more than that (mission dependant).

There are AARs coming out of 'stan & Iraq that have good info, but I don't have any links. Sorry. Good luck.

Mechanical Ambush
05-13-2004, 03:51 PM
sheesh
water 5qts (argument 1Lt roughly equivalent to a 1qt) 10lbs
EGG

Water, the life blood of man, in 'Nam, we carried 15qts, every 4th day.

16 OBr SpN
05-14-2004, 06:19 AM
Mine was 30-35 kg.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

W(M)D
05-14-2004, 11:02 AM
55Ibs which would be alot of ammo and water

The Clip
05-15-2004, 09:36 AM
When I was serving in conflict zone, I carried 8 mags(8lbs), rifle AK-74M 6 1/2lbs GP-30 pouched(1lbs) FlyashkaX2 of water. Some rations, small dried food, surprizingly nice. :lol: clothes (2.5lbs) Vest(assault 3.5lbs) Kazak body armour(6CC 16lbs) Best protection ever! :D never need to carry huge loads in to battle. I have in training but never in battle loads of upto 90lbs(easy) with water and rifle. Also carrying large log of 20lbs for 10miles, not allowed to stop while doing it only for 10 seconds or less. I know it sounds very difficult carrying rifle w sling but not allowed sling it with a log in another arm, it is about 2 meters long and roughly the size of a Kola bottle wide.

Javehn
05-15-2004, 10:35 AM
Clip , there is no one sain Russian in the world who meassures anything with lbs , or knows how to translate it to kg , and the same with miles . Stop it please , for god sake , this is not funny or ammusing anymore .

The Clip
05-15-2004, 01:02 PM
What is your problem, I worked it out with calculator, 1 kg = 2.25lbs also miles I looked at olympic measurements, 1 mile = 1600meter 1 KM = 1000 meters I was doing 14 KM in other word 10 miles for. (Off of topic) Ti pomnesh etu reclamu, "Skoka veshat gramov??" rofl I loved that 1, sounded like a pure soviet burcher. rofl On sprashevoit 3 raze rofl rofl

[AFSOC]
05-16-2004, 02:25 AM
DOes anybody know how much the Canadian Army Combat helmet weighs?

I've heard it weighs around 3-5 pounds. Anyone wanna confirm that??

SamHamam
05-29-2004, 10:20 AM
The brish offcial line on what to carry and when:

http://www.atra.mod.uk/atra/INFBATTSCH/itcwales/Structure/Junior_Tactics_Company/KIT_LIST.htm

TacoDelRio
05-31-2004, 06:23 PM
When all my gear is loaded up for extended unsupported operations in the desert, I carry close to 40lbs of water ALONE. Not counting any .308 ammo, anything but water. 4x 100oz Camelbaks, 2x 2qt canteens, and some backup containers for caching.

Things get heavy when you need to drink like 5 gallons of water to technically stay standing in 125 degree heat for a week.

DB p-)

Marsuitor
07-18-2004, 10:05 AM
Possible deployment to Kabul come January. We did some brainstorming on what we'll be needing on patrol, foot or vehicle in town.
Roughly what we came up with;
- Basic clothing, around 1.5, 2kg boots included.
- Bulletproof 14kg, we might be issued lighter stuff @ 6-7kg though.
- Standard Norge helmet @ 2kg.
- LBE, pretty heavy stuff. 180rds 7.62 carried minimum, two conc. grenades, one frag and one smoke. 2-4 bottles of water, other bits and bobs. All adds up to around 10-12kgs.
- Camelback, 2ltrs = 2kgs.
- Standard G3 rifle at around 5kgs loaded + whatever accessories you've clipped on. Either a 40mm that brings it up to 7kgs loaded + 20 40mm grenades around 5kgs, or perhaps a bipod/Aimpoint-ACOG combo, 2kgs there too.

All adds up to 44kgs at most if operating from vehicle.
Then, if there's any mountain tabbing set up there's an additional 20-30kg pack to carry. Go figure, it's not at all easy being the modern infantry of today.

Royal
07-19-2004, 04:34 AM
55Ibs which would be alot of ammo and water

"Bullets and water is all that you need to take to the slaughter"

Once you've got link, claymores, LAW, illum and dems kit or mortar rounds it's f**k all...

digrar
07-19-2004, 06:19 AM
Chuck in NVG, GPS, thermal bino's, bino's, telescope/tripod, radio (HF and VHF just in case ;) ), light weight antena, spare batteries for radios and thermal, med kit, IV bag, digi camera, cam net ect.
The sooner someone comes up with a reliable knee and ankle cartilage replacement the better. p-)

oldsoak
07-19-2004, 07:06 AM
Sticks, walking, troops, for the use of.

- carry on at this rate we'll be so weighed down we'll be knackered before we get out the barrack gate.
Is there any move to lighten the load at all ?

Flagg
07-19-2004, 07:32 AM
carry on at this rate we'll be so weighed down we'll be knackered before we get out the barrack gate.
Is there any move to lighten the load at all ?


Chuck in NVG, GPS, thermal bino's, bino's, telescope/tripod, radio (HF and VHF just in case ), light weight antena, spare batteries for radios and thermal, med kit, IV bag, digi camera, cam net ect.
The sooner someone comes up with a reliable knee and ankle cartilage replacement the better.

Can someone tell me how the term "Light" infantry came about?

Cause 1200+ rounds for the gunner on top of the usual bits and pieces isn't exactly what I call "light."

oldsoak
07-19-2004, 07:42 AM
carry on at this rate we'll be so weighed down we'll be knackered before we get out the barrack gate.
Is there any move to lighten the load at all ?


Chuck in NVG, GPS, thermal bino's, bino's, telescope/tripod, radio (HF and VHF just in case ), light weight antena, spare batteries for radios and thermal, med kit, IV bag, digi camera, cam net ect.
The sooner someone comes up with a reliable knee and ankle cartilage replacement the better.

Can someone tell me how the term "Light" infantry came about?

Cause 1200+ rounds for the gunner on top of the usual bits and pieces isn't exactly what I call "light."

AFAIK - orginally it was a term for infantry used in skirmishing roles in the Napoleonic wars - run in, fire yer musket and leg it . Light probably meant they didnt have 6lb cannons to lug around etc - someone with a much better understanding of such things will be able to give a better definition. "Light infantry " now probably means they can just about manage without a horse and cart.
:)

ArtofPain
07-19-2004, 08:18 AM
When I was at service Full Loadout was about 45 kgs.

DANJANOU
07-19-2004, 03:34 PM
Can someone tell me how the term "Light" infantry came about?

Cause 1200+ rounds for the gunner on top of the usual bits and pieces isn't exactly what I call "light."

Yeah I here you.

Light Infantry, ranks right up there with Military Intelligence as the greatest oxymoron of all time. :roll:

sgt.pepper
07-19-2004, 05:27 PM
Can someone tell me how the term "Light" infantry came aboutthe term light infantry is not about the soldier's combat gear weight, in general light infantry refers to units which are seaborne [marines] airborne ,air assault[kinda airborne] paratroopers and ground units equipped with light tanks and other combat vehicles,as opposed to light infantry the heavy infantry is equipped with tracked APC's or IFV's and cooperate closely with tank units,heavy infantry is often called mechanized infantry

hank
07-19-2004, 06:35 PM
Can someone tell me how the term "Light" infantry came about?

Not to disagree with anybody here, but I have often wondered this also. Here is a US Army report that discusses US doctrine and light infantry. I think the gyst of the article says that light infantry is many things to many people. Its long but worth it. Check it out.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1989/JLD.htm

hank

Chris1
07-19-2004, 06:42 PM
Yer both wrong
http://www.army.mod.uk/lightinfantry/history_traditions/a_short_history.htm
:D
(this is a joke, you're not wrong, just answering a different question :) )

hank
07-19-2004, 06:47 PM
That is a great post. Very informative. Its interesting that it appears that "light" has nothing to do with it, then or now. Wonder why we still use the terminology?

Wasn't one of Rommel's Divisions in North Africa called a "light" division even though it was mechanized and had a battalion of tanks? I seem to remember that it later became a Panzer Division but initially was a light division. Very interesting.

hank

DE_Six
07-19-2004, 07:04 PM
I might forget a few details, but I read that US Army light infantry was "reintroduced" in the 80s. Basically, they were mechanized divisions *****ped of their armor. So "Light" means they have no heavy (armor) weapons, except the aviation battalion.

Here's a simple TO&E for Light Infantry.

http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/usa/lightinfantrytoe.html

garyfanclub
07-19-2004, 09:57 PM
How did the phrase about light infantry go?

"Fight light, freeze at night!"