Rape and torture in Abu Ghraib

[ariweiner]

Focus shifts to jail abuse of women

Luke Harding in Baghdad
Wednesday May 12, 2004
The Guardian

For Huda Shaker, the humiliation began at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Baghdad. The American soldiers demanded to search her handbag. When she refused one of the soldiers pointed his gun towards her chest.

"He pointed the laser sight directly in the middle of my chest," said Professor Shaker, a political scientist at Baghdad University. "Then he pointed to his *****. He told me, 'Come here, bitch, I'm going to **** you.'"

The incident is one of a number in which US soldiers are alleged to have abused, intimidated or ******ly humiliated Iraqi women.

According to Prof Shaker, several women held in Abu Ghraib jail were ******ly abused, including one who was raped by an American military policeman and became pregnant. She has now disappeared.

Most of the coverage of the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib has focused on Iraqi men. But there is compelling evidence that several female prisoners, who are in a minority at the jail, were abused as well.

"A female colleague of mine was arrested and taken there. When I asked her after she was released what happened at Abu Ghraib she started crying," Prof Shaker said.

"Ladies here are afraid and shy of talking about such subjects. They say everything is OK. Even in a very advanced society in the west it is very difficult to talk about rape. But I think it happened."

Few women released from US detention have come forward to talk about their experiences in a Muslim society where rape is sometimes equated with shame and victims can be killed to salvage family honour.

According to the New Yorker magazine the photos and videos so far unreleased by the Pentagon show American soldiers "having *** with a female Iraqi prisoner", and a secret report by General Antonio Taguba into the scandal confirms that US guards videotaped and photographed naked female prisoners and that "a male MP [military police] guard" is shown "having *** with a female detainee".

Yesterday Prof Shaker, who began researching the subject this year for Amnesty International, said she believed the woman involved had been killed.

"The girl was called Noor. When I went to her house in Baghdad earlier this year she had disappeared. The neighbours said that she and her family had moved away."

Since the US military began its inquiry into prisoner abuse in January, many female detainees have been released from Abu Ghraib and the other US detention facilities across Iraq.

But five women are still in solitary confinement in Abu Ghraib's notorious 1A cellblock where as many as 1,500 pictures were taken in November and December.

According to Rajaa Habib Khuzaai, an obstetrician who is one of three women on the US-appointed Iraqi governing council, none of the five has been raped or ******ly abused. US officials allowed Dr Khuzaai to visit them yesterday and interview them privately.

Two of the women told her that US soldiers had beaten them after their arrest in December and January while they were in custody at Baghdad international airport, before their transfer to Abu Ghraib.

"They were a little embarrassed. They merely said they had been beaten and that was it," Dr Khuzaai told the Guardian.

She added: "They are now paid special attention. Conditions are OK and they have given them some privacy."

But there are unanswered questions as to why the women have been locked up without charge.

According to Dr Khuzaai, two of the women are married to high-ranking and absconding Ba'ath party officials, two are accused of financing the Iraqi resistance, and one had a relationship with the director of Iraq's former secret police, the mukhabarat.

Human rights campaigners say the US military frequently arrests wives and daughters during raids if the male suspect is not at home.

US officials have acknowledged detaining women in the hope of convincing male relatives to provide information: a strategy that is in violation of international law.

"The issue is the system," Nada Doumani of the International Committee of the Red Cross said yesterday.

"It is an absence of judicial guarantees. People are being kept in custody without knowing what for. The system is not fair, precise or properly defined."

Senior US military officers who escorted journalists around Abu Ghraib on Monday admitted that rape had taken place in the cellblock where 19 "high-value" male detainees are also being held.

Asked how it could have happened, Colonel Dave Quantock, who is now in charge of the prison's detention facilities, said: "I don't know. It's all about leadership. Apparently it wasn't there."

Journalists were forbidden from talking to the women, who are kept upstairs in windowless 2.5 metre by 1.5 metre cells. The women wailed and shouted.

They were kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, Col Quantock said, with only a Koran.

Other allegations being investigated are that a 12- or 13-year-old girl had been stripped naked in the block and paraded in front of male inmates.

Yesterday Prof Shaker said after her ordeal in February her friends dragged her back into the car and drove off. "I vowed never to talk to another American soldier," she said.

She said the US and Britain should learn from the affair. "You can't treat human beings in this way. I hope they have learned from this."

[duck]

So SecDef Rumsfeldt doesn't want to make these photos public?

Wonder if his bitch...I mean wife has seen them?

[UkrainianAmerican]

:lol:
rofl rofl rofl

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes, I understand that rape and beatings are especially offensive to Muslim women. Coincidentally, having one's head hacked off is particularly offensive to American men. This seems to be an especially offensive war, not like the other wars where people treated each other like family.

[Shiruzu]

This seems to be an especially offensive war, not like the other wars where people treated each other like family.

Which "family-like" war do you mean?

[usa320]

This seems to be an especially offensive war, not like the other wars where people treated each other like family.

Yeah, because we all burn our families alive and starve them in death camps.

[Beowulf]

sarcasm, people....look into it.

[BlackRain]

Rape and torture? Hardly.

Please provide some evidence of rape! Notice how the witness disappeared and their is not DNA testing available to prove this claim.

Don't believe everything you hear in the Arab or anti-American press my friend.

If you want real torture and rape stories, talk to the Iraqi's who were imprisoned at Abu Ghraib during Saddam's reign.

No comparison. And by the way, where was you horror and outrage back then? http://www.scifhost.com/images/guns/nutkick.gif

[duck]

Operation Iraqi Freedom, not Operation Minor Rape.

[Truthsayer]

The report of more, non-published, pics that the comitty would be able to take into review was said to contain just this. I read it on CNN, and even you cannot claim they are anti-US?

Latest frontpage news on it: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/12/congress.abuse/index.html

Just search for the others.


(Pvt England claims she was ordered to pose: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/12/prisoner.abuse.england.ap/index.html *cough*BS*cough*)

[Chuckie]

I'm against any type of physical abuse, but most of the pictures I've seen remind me of crap that guys had to go through when pledging Frats in college (hell, I didn't even see any of the Iraqis' being forced to teabag). So really, I think most of those pictures are being blown out of proportion. I am 100% against any physical torture/abuse, but I have yet to see pictures of torture (not to say it didn't happen).. most of the photos I've seen would be classified as perverted and twisted.

[BlackRain]

CNN = Clinton News Network.

This network is hardly an unbiased organization. The press is out to undermine President Bush and embarras the US military. Their ultimate goal is to get Kerry into office. Example of Bias against Republicans by CNN: https://secure.mediaresearch.org/Campaign2000/CNNnetwork.html

More press bias against Rumsfield on the alleged prison abuse:


A national poll found 64 percent of the public believes Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should not resign over the prison abuse scandal. Some network reporters, however, think differently. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski claimed a growing "political and public opinion drumbeat" was calling for Rumsfeld to quit while CBS's Bill Plante, without naming a single Republican, reported that there were "continued bipartisan calls" for the resignation


http://www.mediaresearch.org/realitycheck/2004/textbox/textbox0512.gif

[Truthsayer]

CNN = Clinton News Network.

This network is hardly an unbiased organization. The press is out to undermine President Bush and embarras the US military. Their ultimate goal is to get Kerry into office. Example of Bias against Republicans by CNN: https://secure.mediaresearch.org/Campaign2000/CNNnetwork.html

More press bias against Rumsfield on the alleged prison abuse:


A national poll found 64 percent of the public believes Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should not resign over the prison abuse scandal. Some network reporters, however, think differently. NBC's Jim Miklaszewski claimed a growing "political and public opinion drumbeat" was calling for Rumsfeld to quit while CBS's Bill Plante, without naming a single Republican, reported that there were "continued bipartisan calls" for the resignation

CNN wasn't mentioned in your qoute.

NBC and CBS was.

So NBC, CBS and CNN are all anti-american?

Let me ask this: what IS 'american'?

[Beowulf]

The charge, as I understand it, is not that they are anti american, but rather that they tend to skew things to the left....

[Truthsayer]

Don't believe everything you hear in the Arab or anti-American press my friend.

[usa320]

I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers.

:|

[mustamato]

I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers.

:|

Who are those "people" you are talking about?

[duck]

During WWII, misconducts like the ones at Abu Ghraib were more often than not punished by hanging or firing squad, now those found guilty get a severe reprimand.

[incubz5]

A pregnant Israeli mother and her four daughters were gunned down by terrorists just the other week. Take their murders, combine them with Berg's own murder, then combine it with Daniel Pearl's, the bombing of the UN headquarters in Baghdad, and the execution of Europeans in Iraq, and you still will not have one-tenth the amount of media coverage that these so-called "tortures" of Iraqi POWs are getting and will get.

This folks, is inhumanity.

[incubz5]

During WWII, misconducts like the ones at Abu Ghraib were more often than not punished by hanging or firing squad

As usual duck, you have nothing to add but lies and retardation. During WWII we locked up over 65,000 American citizens just because they were from Japanese ancestry. The last enemy combatants in this country to be executed by firing squad were, yes, German saboteurs from WWII. Think we'll be trotting any Guantanomo Bay prisoners in front of firing squads?

This world is the exact opposite of this country during WWII. If this were 1942, every muslim in this country would be in camps in California, Moussai and every terrorist caught would be in front of a firing squad, we would've nuked Fallujah, we would be cheering at the loss of under 1000 lives in one year to win Afghanistan and Iraq (as opposed to the half-million American lives lost in WWII).

Get some perspective.

[n4292936]

I don't know that the turture is "so called" photo proof of interegating techniques that people nearly universally agree to be tantamount to torture have been shown to the world, it is fact - not so-called.
The media coverage is for good reason. The executions that you mentioned, as horrible as they were, were more or less isolated cases, impacting on very little in the big scheme of things. The UN bombing, again the act of an insipid ideology, was not the story of the year because at that time it was both inevitable and not out of the norm.
The prisoner abuses on the hand, are, thankfully, considered an unusual story. This story has the potential to: deomonstrate the hypocrisy of America, further incense the arab world, radicalise moderate arabs against the occupation, prove right the detractors of the US military, generate more hate and therefore a more intense insurgency against America and much more. The ramifications of the Abu Grahb revelations are enormous and recognised as such. I personally would prefer to see them not publicised (mostly for the sake of keeping the level of violence against the coalition as low as possible), and the perpetrators of the abuse punished - but its not surprising that its getting the coverage that it is. The DOD has absolutely shot themselves in the foot on this one. They knew about the abuse from serveral reports from NGOs and yet did jack ****. someone's head deserves to roll over this, and I dont think its necessarily the soldiers that did it, though clearly they are culpable as well.

[NeedsABetterName]

You want to know the real problem in this war? Here's your answer:The press!You ever notice that they only show the bad things and screw-ups,while refusing to show the good things we're doing over there?Yes,what these soldiers did was wrong,and I personally belive they should spend a long time making big rocks into small rocks at Ft. Leavenworth's Federal Bad Boys Camp/Prison.But still,open your eyes you idiot news shows.I mean its like the Inside Access guys on the movie Mr. Deeds...

[duck]

During WWII, misconducts like the ones at Abu Ghraib were more often than not punished by hanging or firing squad

As usual duck, you have nothing to add but lies and retardation. During WWII we locked up over 65,000 American citizens just because they were from Japanese ancestry. The last enemy combatants in this country to be executed by firing squad were, yes, German saboteurs from WWII. Think we'll be trotting any Guantanomo Bay prisoners in front of firing squads?

This world is the exact opposite of this country during WWII. If this were 1942, every muslim in this country would be in camps in California, Moussai and every terrorist caught would be in front of a firing squad, we would've nuked Fallujah, we would be cheering at the loss of under 1000 lives in one year to win Afghanistan and Iraq (as opposed to the half-million American lives lost in WWII).

Get some perspective.

Please check court martials records in the European theatre before writing more BS. The question is one of moral standards, not bigotry.

[incubz5]

duck,

How about you check your brain first? Since you've made the accusation that American soldiers were summarily executed by firing squad for torturing the enemy, you'll be the one to back it up.

It's a lie though, and you know it. You made it up.

[duck]

duck,

How about you check your brain first? Since you've made the accusation that American soldiers were summarily executed by firing squad for torturing the enemy, you'll be the one to back it up.

It's a lie though, and you know it. You made it up.

I've seen the figure somewhere, several dozen G.I's were executed for rape and blunder during and after WWII. Made a big difference during the Cold War when they were seen as guarantees of Liberty.

Edit: Several hundred is BS from my part, total number of US Army executions during WWII is 70. The several hundred must be the number punished otherwise.

[California Joe]

What Saddam did is no justification for a bunch of hicks from Cumberland MD re enacting their favorite "Beecher Moment" from OZ for ****s and giggles on the night shift. We are better than that. We have to be. I don't give a rat's ass who told them to soften up the prisoners. They enjoyed it a little too much. The one that pisses me off the most is the lawyered up Brigadier playing the damsel in distress that is busy claiming that she's not responsible cause she didn't know even though it happened in her command, on her watch.

PS, I don't think Muslim women are more "sensitive" to rape than Western or Christian women. That's an incredibly retarded statement.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

I agree with California Joe, those things shouldn't happen.
Even if US soldiers and civilians get executed by more or less organized militia groups doesn't mean that it's ok, to do whatever you want to any iraqi.
NeedsABetterName, you should be angry at the persons that commited these actions, they are the ones blackening the name of USA, not the press.

[incubz5]

California Joe,

Amen brother. Court martials and jail for every last one of them. They're a disgrace to the uniform and our efforts.


I've seen the figure somewhere, several dozen G.I's were executed for rape and blunder during and after WWII. Made a big difference during the Cold War when they were seen as guarantees of Liberty.

ROFLOL! Yeah, as contrasted with how many Soviet soldiers executed by that murderous empire? Please.

[incubz5]

Oh, I would most certainly agree that your "hundreds executed by firing squads during WWII" number is, in no uncertain terms, total BS. History please:

According to Executions in the U.S. 1608-1987 by M. Watt Espy and John Ortiz Smylka, it is estimated that 142 men have been judicially shot in the United States and English-speaking predecessor territories since 1608, excluding executions related to the American Civil War. The Civil War saw several hundred firing squad deaths but reliable numbers are not available.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Execution-by-firing-squad

I think you need to take a hard look at the propaganda you've been digesting and ask yourself if you're better than that.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

What Saddam did is no justification for a bunch of hicks from Cumberland MD re enacting their favorite "Beecher Moment" from OZ for ****s and giggles on the night shift. We are better than that. We have to be. I don't give a rat's ass who told them to soften up the prisoners. They enjoyed it a little too much. The one that pisses me off the most is the lawyered up Brigadier playing the damsel in distress that is busy claiming that she's not responsible cause she didn't know even though it happened in her command, on her watch.

PS, I don't think Muslim women are more "sensitive" to rape than Western or Christian women. That's an incredibly retarded statement.

CJ my good man, as has already been pointed out, it's sarcasm. I don't think American men are especially sensitive to decapitation either. If they had a sarcasm emoticon, I would have used it. ;)

I'm simply tired of being told by the press that these abuses are "especially" bad for Muslims/men/fill in the blank. Being embarrassed or pushed around sucks for anybody. I just had no idea they were so delicate.

Now that the press has set me straight, I now know that;

>being seen naked by another man=an uspeakable shame & death would be better

>cutting off non-combatants heads with huge knives and being sprayed with hot pumping blood, holding up severed head while it can still see=another day at the office

[One?]

I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers.

:|

shut the fuk up. One of those in the human pyramid is a known iraqi writer. At least 50% of those in prison are innocent. racist piece of sh$$$

[mocking_loudly_died]

What Saddam did is no justification for a bunch of hicks from Cumberland MD re enacting their favorite "Beecher Moment" from OZ for ****s and giggles on the night shift. We are better than that. We have to be. I don't give a rat's ass who told them to soften up the prisoners. They enjoyed it a little too much. The one that pisses me off the most is the lawyered up Brigadier playing the damsel in distress that is busy claiming that she's not responsible cause she didn't know even though it happened in her command, on her watch.

PS, I don't think Muslim women are more "sensitive" to rape than Western or Christian women. That's an incredibly retarded statement.

You said everything I would have stated. So I can shut up. :D

[Trigger]

I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers.

:|

shut the fuk up. One of those in the human pyramid is a known iraqi writer. At least 50% of those in prison are innocent. racist piece of sh$$$
Show some evidence of this alleged 50% please. I find it extremely hard to believe that the *ahem* people locked up in that prison were just 'Joe Blow' Iraqi on the street.
Oh, poor guys...they were humiliated. Show me some severed fingers, cigarette burns or maybe some genital mutilation at the hands of Americans and I'll start crying for the Iraqi prisoners. They got off easy compared to what went on there before us.

This entire spectacle is nothing but politically motivated garbage with the sole purpose of smearing Bush...and the usual suspects around here are doing there part to further it.

[stuntman]

as opposed to the half-million American lives lost in WWII).

Get some perspective

WTF :roll: ? Someone needs perspective over stats buddy!

[esl]

Rape and torture? Hardly.


If you want real torture and rape stories, talk to the Iraqi's who were imprisoned at Abu Ghraib during Saddam's reign.

No comparison. And by the way, where was you horror and outrage back then? http://www.scifhost.com/images/guns/nutkick.gif

Remember back in 1980s such torture was told about along with gassing Kurds in north. People said shut up, Saddam is needed to keep IRan Khomainie out from Oil. People were American.


PS ,AMerican news biased and much propaganda too.I find it best to see CBC, BBC, CNN, LaMonde to get better picture.Internet very helpful here even to see Arab news paper.

[Trigger]

^Ah yes, the good old circular argument: "You supported Saddam 25 years ago/Rumsfeld needs to resign/Anybody but Bush"
Stale. :roll:

[esl]

^Ah yes, the good old circular argument: "You supported Saddam 25 years ago/Rumsfeld needs to resign/Anybody but Bush"
Stale. :roll:


Don't understand?
He said "where was outrage back then? " , SO I answer.

[weedman]

When we talked about deserters, so many people talked about death penalty.

What about the people responsible for the tortures?


Don't get my wrong, I'm an opponent of death penalty, but you must finish what you start.

[One?]

Trigger I could simply tell the US army that you are an iraqi insurgent and they will pick you up. By the time you get processed its about 2 months. the coalition arrested 40,000 and released about 20,000+(any know the exact numbers?). Its taking the US army a long time to process each prisoner. Some of them might be criminals, others might be insurgents, or simply they were picked up at the wrong place and the wrong time. If they suspect you are an insurgent you get picked.

If you don't consider dogs biting you tortore then I dont know what is. If you don't consider forcing prisoners to perform oral/anal *** then I dont know what you consider torture. Former prisoners are already talking and they are all over arab media. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Why don't you ask Rumsfeld to release the 1000 pictures and vidoes...

[ikurinturbiini]

A pregnant Israeli mother and her four daughters were gunned down by terrorists just the other week. Take their murders, combine them with Berg's own murder, then combine it with Daniel Pearl's, the bombing of the UN headquarters in Baghdad, and the execution of Europeans in Iraq, and you still will not have one-tenth the amount of media coverage that these so-called "tortures" of Iraqi POWs are getting and will get.

This folks, is inhumanity.

Western nations exercise constant control of things that are done by their governments and in their name. A Western soldier MUST have high moral standards and good discipline. The rotten eggs (like those dumbass rednecks in Abu Ghraib pictures) MUST be rooted out. That is the Western way. The coverage these rotten eggs get means that atrocities are condemned, period, and that it is not OK to humiliate, torture and abuse even suspected terrorists and mass murderers. I mean, Saddam's still alive and doing well.

Terrorist scum don't care how things get done. The dirtier the better.

That's the difference. We expect the worst from terrorists and we're not surprised when they deliver. We expect the best from our own, and we're shocked and enraged when they turn out to be the same kind of scum as the terrorists they're supposed be fighting.

Unfortunately, even Western civilization is superficial, and the animal within comes out very easily. Then it's time to deal with the problem swiftly and decisively.

[Shiruzu]

Ok, i haven't gone through the whole thread, i just want you to keep this in mind:

These aren't just some funny fraternity photos! What is shown in there, is the most horrible thing, which can be done to a real muslim!
I know, there will be ten guys saying now: "Getting skinned alive is worse then stripped naked by a woman"....

But take this story for example:
In the Koran (-the muslim bible, don't know your spelling-) there is a story about Ali, a relative of the prophet Muhammed. Ali fought against an enemy, and he struck him with his sword, so that his clothes were falling down and the enemy was stripped naked. But Ali did not go on attacking, he just said: Your nakedness and lost honor are a bigger punishment than death!

So think about it guys! There is nothing worse, you can do to a real muslim, than stripping him naked, forcing him to masturbate in front of a woman! His honor is broken for ever, even if he would kill all the prisonguards with his own hands afterwards! He lost his face, and thats more than just a little "fraternity joke", especially in the arab world!


/edit

And by the way, the guards surely knew, how bad this treatment was for a muslim.
At least, these kinds of torture have been developed specially for muslims, because thats how you get the most infos.
So if the guards were advised by intelligence, someone knew, how hard this punishment was to the prisoners!

[duck]

Oh, I would most certainly agree that your "hundreds executed by firing squads during WWII" number is, in no uncertain terms, total BS. History please:

According to Executions in the U.S. 1608-1987 by M. Watt Espy and John Ortiz Smylka, it is estimated that 142 men have been judicially shot in the United States and English-speaking predecessor territories since 1608, excluding executions related to the American Civil War. The Civil War saw several hundred firing squad deaths but reliable numbers are not available.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Execution-by-firing-squad

I think you need to take a hard look at the propaganda you've been digesting and ask yourself if you're better than that.

What propaganda? Are you ignorant, blind or both?

[ShadowNeo]

I've noticed alot of people seem to like using the "yeah, but Saddam did worse" argument.

We are supposed to be of a higher moral standing than Saddam. There is no way to excuse the abuse that has taken place by the Coalition. Also, I find it somewhat mind-boggling that you choose to compare the abuse of Iraqi prisoners to the beheading of Nick Berg, as the latter was almost undeniably caused by the fact that the former occurred.

In my opinion News agencies should focus more on the problems within the Coalition as these problems detract from the progress in the Iraq vastly more than the progress that is made from rebuilding schools and restoring water supplies.

[shrek]

"he pointed his laser at her chest"

The lasers used today are not visible to the naked eye. Look at the first inconsistency and move down the article from there, they only get worse. Remember people, anybody can make up ****e and write it down, don't be gullible!!

[Argyll]

"he pointed his laser at her chest"

The lasers used today are not visible to the naked eye. Look at the first inconsistency and move down the article from there, they only get worse. Remember people, anybody can make up ****e and write it down, don't be gullible!!


^
Word

[Shiruzu]

What about a laser-pointer? AFAIK they are visible ;)

[front]

usa320 wrote:

"I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers."

Listen up inhofe (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/shapiro/2004-05-11-hype_x.htm). No-one in that prison was convicted of any crime. That may not mean anything to you and other people who are convinced that the US military does not make mistakes (and that there is ALWAYS some sort of excusable reason for their mistakes whenever they make them) but you are in the minority. So when these mistakes happen it's best to put the finger on those responsible and make sure it does not happen again. That only happens when there is genuine outrage, and expressive genuine outrage, which tells those inside the Beltway that they better fecking own up... and quick.

What I want to draw you on here is this. The people shredder. The people shredding plastic shredder. We all have heard this one... Saddams thugs/sons use to feed people into them feet first etc.

Have a read of this: The missing people-shredder (http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1155399,00.html)

Can you point us to any source which contradicts this article?

cheers

front

[California Joe]

CJ my good man, as has already been pointed out, it's sarcasm. I don't think American men are especially sensitive to decapitation either. If they had a sarcasm emoticon, I would have used it. ;)

I'm simply tired of being told by the press that these abuses are "especially" bad for Muslims/men/fill in the blank. Being embarrassed or pushed around sucks for anybody. I just had no idea they were so delicate.

Now that the press has set me straight, I now know that;

>being seen naked by another man=an uspeakable shame & death would be better

>cutting off non-combatants heads with huge knives and being sprayed with hot pumping blood, holding up severed head while it can still see=another day at the office

My apologies 2 Sheds, my sarcasm detector failed me miserably. I believe we are on the same page. ;)

[ExtraT]

"he pointed his laser at her chest"

The lasers used today are not visible to the naked eye. Look at the first inconsistency and move down the article from there, they only get worse. Remember people, anybody can make up ****e and write it down, don't be gullible!!

Nice catch, man! I new something was wrong in this whole passage.

[ExtraT]

The missing people-shredder (http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1155399,00.html)


Who the f*ck cares? Maybe Guardian does, but Guardian is hardly in the same boat as your average Joe.

[ibstolidude]

At least, these kinds of torture have been developed specially for muslims, because thats how you get the most infos.
So if the guards were advised by intelligence, someone knew, how hard this punishment was to the prisoners! - you talk and yet you know nothing. It is obvious you have not read nor comprehended the reports related to the matter and instead (insert) your own facts. Please post you credentials that would give you ANY incite to the best ways to "get infos" from a prisoner. You ideas are far from the mark on effective interrogations.

[rokus2595]

I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers.

:|
I agree. You are talking about the largest terrorist force in iraq right? (hint: the American forces)

[ibstolidude]

What about a laser-pointer? AFAIK they are visible ;)
laser pointers are not guns. ;)
The US Army issues a laser that is not visible to naked eye. ;)
No matter how many cute icons you use, you still have no special insight into the events related to the prison. ;)

[ibstolidude]

I find it disgusting that people piss and moan when some Looters and gunmen get stripped and humiliated, by no one cares when those same gunmen and thugs behead civilians, rape, use human shields, throw people off of buildings, put people into plastic-shredding machines, or use chemical weapons on their brothers.

:|
I agree. You are talking about the largest terrorist force in iraq right? (hint: the American forces)
Hey rokus2595 - I certainly do not argree with usa320 - buts lets see some credible evidence of the US forces beheading civilians, using human shields, throwing people off buikldings and the like.

If you do not choose to deliniate that a terrorists intentionally kills civilians v/s the tragic events that often defall those in areas of war, then do you list your own forces among those terrorists? I mean we can easily look back over the years and see the mistakes and errors of every proff. army to include Canada - or does Somolia not ring a bell. The Candanian army is as adept as any in the world. It is foolish to make such blanket statements.

[rokus2595]

...At least 50% of those in prison are innocent. racist piece of sh$$$

Show some evidence of this alleged 50% please. I find it extremely hard to believe that the *ahem* people locked up in that prison were just 'Joe Blow' Iraqi on the street.

Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested "by mistake,' according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday...

http://www.presstelegram.com/Stories/0,1413,204~21474~2139895,00.html

[rokus2595]

If you do not choose to deliniate that a terrorists intentionally kills civilians v/s the tragic events that often defall those in areas of war, then do you list your own forces among those terrorists? I mean we can easily look back over the years and see the mistakes and errors of every proff. army to include Canada - or does Somolia not ring a bell. The Candanian army is as adept as any in the world. It is foolish to make such blanket statements.

You are absolutely right...what those Canadian soldiers did in Somalia would make the best terrorist proud. And that is my point. What the US forces are doing in iraq, and by extension the whole iraqi occupation, is also terrorism

[XASA]

If you do not choose to deliniate that a terrorists intentionally kills civilians v/s the tragic events that often defall those in areas of war, then do you list your own forces among those terrorists? I mean we can easily look back over the years and see the mistakes and errors of every proff. army to include Canada - or does Somolia not ring a bell. The Candanian army is as adept as any in the world. It is foolish to make such blanket statements.

You are absolutely right...what those Canadian soldiers did in Somalia would make the best terrorist proud. And that is my point. What the US forces are doing in iraq, and by extension the whole iraqi occupation, is also terrorism

Can you please cite examples of American terrorism in Iraq aside from the abuse of the prisoners? Or is your claim based on your own political agenda and personal insight to the war?

The U.S. military has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, they came to terms with the Fallujah insurgents to avoid more bloodshed, and they have apologized profusely for the humiliation and torture of Iraqi prisoners, whereas the "insurgents" have blown up mosques and civilian aid facilities and murdered more than a 1,000 innocent civilians. How do you compare the two?

As I posted before, I think America shouldn't have gone to war without first trying to topple Saddam my any means necessary short of war; once war became an option, we should have built real coalition like we did in GW1. Also, the initial occupation was mismanaged. But since our troops were deployed, I think they have done a great job under extremely difficult conditions. To besmirch their honor because you have problems with the policy that placed them there is inappropriate and, to be frank, absolutely wrong.

[BlackRain]

Remember back in 1980s such torture was told about along with gassing Kurds in north. People said shut up, Saddam is needed to keep IRan Khomainie out from Oil. People were American.


PS ,AMerican news biased and much propaganda too.I find it best to see CBC, BBC, CNN, LaMonde to get better picture.Internet very helpful here even to see Arab news paper.

You need to get your facts straight before you make a fool of yourself again.

Iraq attacked 49 Kurdish villages in Dihok Province with chemical weapons along Iraq's border with Turkey. These attacks began on Aug. 25, 1988, five days after the Iran-Iraq war ended, and were specifically targeted on civilians.

About noon on March 16, 1988 -- after two days of conventional bombing -- the Iraqi air force dropped sarin, tabun, VX and mustard gas on Halabja. The toxic cloud drifted over the town, killing an estimated 5,000 people and injuring 10,000.

People said shutup???

U. S. State Department spokesman, Charles E. Redman, announced AT THE TIME: "This incident appears to be a particularly grave violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol against chemical warfare." Reference: The New York Times, April 2, 1988

In fact, the United Nations in particular failed to introduce any forceful resolutions to deal with the threat of the spreading use of illegal weapons.

In a halfhearted statement on April 26, 1988, the Security Council confirmed the assertions of the gas attack on Halabja, but proposed no new measures for dealing with Iraq's recurrent deployment.

Hey asswipe, what did your country do about it? Nothing. So shut the **** up.

[rokus2595]

Or is your claim based on your own political agenda and personal insight to the war? as opposed to yours? i mean, what is your own political agenda and personal insight to the war?


The U.S. military has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties??? for example?


they came to terms with the Fallujah insurgents to avoid more bloodshed After killing what? 700 people? after shooting civilians in the back? isn't that terrorism? i mean, US soldiers there were terrorising the civilian population.


and they have apologized profusely for the humiliation and torture of Iraqi prisoners sure, after being told about it several months ago and did NOTHING then to stop it. Only when the pictures emerged was suddenly prudent to apologize...:cantbeli:


whereas the "insurgents" have blown up mosques and civilian aid facilities and murdered more than a 1,000 innocent civilians. ??? Sources?


As I posted before, I think America shouldn't have gone to war without first trying to topple Saddam my any means necessary short of war; once war became an option An option??? Canada has the option to invade the US right now, but for the obvious reasons that would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Same with the Iraq invation.


we should have built real coalition like we did in GW1. And guess why the US couldn't.....because the rest of the world saw it was a bad idea to invade iraq...funny how the coalition was called the coalition of the willing rofl ...what would they think of next? oh yeah, how about saying u want a democracy in iraq while not permitting elections to occur, or how about telling the iraqis they can have sovereignty but can not control their own forces...i mean come on! who's is the fool here and who is being fooled??


To besmirch their honor because you have problems with the policy that placed them there is inappropriate and, to be frank, absolutely wrong. I COMPLETELY AGREE!! it is the policy that sent those soldiers to iraq in the first place that is WRONG. Sadly, it is not the policy makers that are paying for it, but US soldiers and Iraqi civilians.

[XASA]

Rokus, obviously your opinion isn't based on facts but your own personal views and bias, which is why I don't think discussing the matter with you any further is worth any more time than it took me to type this sentence.

[rokus2595]

XASA, obviously your opinion isn't based on facts but your own personal views and bias, which is why I don't think discussing the matter with you any further is worth any more time than it took me to type this sentence.










;)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

rofl nice one BlackRain

Hey, has the media's lopsided portrayal of Iraqis / Muslims struck anybody else as a bit odd? What I mean is; when the prisoners were abused, we were told unequivocally that the abuse they received was particularly horrible for Muslims. This implies that this wouldn't be so bad for non-Muslims, that all the prisoners were Muslims, and that all Muslims are the same.

But when people who clearly state that they are Muslims decapitated Berg, we are immediately told by the press that they are not true Muslims, and that these people don't represent Muslims and all Muslims are not the same.

They can't have it both ways. Either it's ok to paint everybody with the same brush, or it's not.

Seems to me (and as others have pointed out), the press appears to be deliberately fanning the flames. It's as if they have completely given up simply reporting facts, and instead inject social commentary & assumptions in order for us to see "their" side of events.

Before the flames ignite, I'll state that I agree with the 2nd statement - that all Muslims are not alike...so I'm not bashing them, I'm bashing the press.

[Shiruzu]

What about a laser-pointer? AFAIK they are visible ;)
laser pointers are not guns. ;)
The US Army issues a laser that is not visible to naked eye. ;)
No matter how many cute icons you use, you still have no special insight into the events related to the prison. ;)

Which kind of laser do you mean? The ones, which soldiers use, to mark targets for Bombers?
I meant laser-pointers on rifles, like this one:

http://www.isayeret.com/optics/aim1/naim1.jpg

So this is visible, isn't it?

[FuturePara]

The US military uses the AN/PEQ-2A IR laser mounted on weapons isntead of the visible one like that Israeli is using. They require NOD's to see properly.

[Shiruzu]

The US military uses the AN/PEQ-2A IR laser mounted on weapons isntead of the visible one like that Israeli is using. They require NOD's to see properly.

Ok, thanks for the info!
Could it be, that the soldier used his own equipment?

[Argyll]

No,why would he?and to what purpose?

[The Walrus]

There is a reason why there is outrage at this, everybody agrees that Saddam did stuff like this on a greater systematic scale.
But the fact of the matter is, that the US military is supposed to hold the moral high ground on this, sure the torture isn't as extensive as Saddams, but it is torture nevertheless, and it goes against the most fundamental of US values.
And to those who say the pictures are nothing serious: the pictures that have been released so far do not depict physical violence, the ones that the congress saw did, and just listening to what they had to say about it afterwards, Republican and Democrat, gives the impression that the ones shown so far are the tame ones. Just look through the internal army report to get an idea of the more serious abuses. The evidence for the report didn't come from detainees citing abuse, but from actual US soldiers who witnessed the deeds and reported them.

[budanski]

Someone commits a murder in your country, does that make everyone in that country a murderer? Those who committed these were just a few bad apples. Please don't sit up on your high horse and make it seem as though, as with collateral damage, mistreatment of enemy prisoners is an american invention. The humuliation photo ops are more preferable to me than to be used as live human medical test subjects. Its loudest coming from Kerry's party, yet I doubt what happened in Abu Ghraib was any worse than what Kerry had admitted to have commited in Vietnam (http://www.talkaboutpeople.com/group/alt.fan.j-garofalo/messages/21611.html).

[esl]

Hey asswipe, what did your country do about it? Nothing. So shut the f*** up.

You are very rude person . If you are typical of Amerians , then We are not surprised at abuse :roll:

USA Actively support Iraq in war on Iran and abuse go way back before 1988. If UN did nothing, it is fault of USA/USSR/China /France and UK. Security Council countries made UN the way it is today.

[incubz5]

sure the torture isn't as extensive as Saddams

ROFLMAO!!!!! Where is there "TORTURE" in this PR disaster period?????? THIS is torture:

“A family, arrested in late 2000, were taken to two separate interrogation centres within Republican Guard facilities located along the road to Abu Ghraib. The husband was held in one centre whilst the wife and children were held at a women's facility. The husband and wife were interrogated under torture about the husband's sale of a vehicle that, the interrogators said, had been captured by Iraqi security forces during a raid on Iraqi oppositionists. The interrogators said separately to both husband and wife that they would cease the torture if they signed confessions admitting to be collaborating with the oppositionists. They refused. The wife was stripped naked and cigarettes stubbed out on all parts of her body whenever she refused to implicate her husband. She was beaten and thrown around the interrogation room. Her children were forced to watch the torture. She was eventually released, having been told that her husband would continue being tortured until she returned to confess. She was arrested again two weeks later and the same pattern of torture was repeated, leaving her a psychological wreck. During his interrogation, the husband's arms were tied behind his back and he was then suspended in the air using a hook hung from the ceiling. This caused intense pain as his shoulder muscles and ligaments were torn. After a period, the interrogators entered the room and the husband was unhooked and placed in a chair in the middle of the room. From close range, he was then shot at with a pistol whenever he refused to agree to sign his confession. Sometimes shots were fired which missed his body, at other times the pistol muzzle was placed against his fingers, toes or arms and fired so as to mutilate these areas. Over the following two weeks further interrogations occurred at intervals, following periods of food and water deprivation. Eventually the husband's and wife's wider family paid a bribe to an Iraqi Intelligence officer and both the husband and wife were released. They subsequently escaped from Iraq.”.

http://www.patriot-paradox.com/archives/000106.html

[budanski]

...or this (http://www.cbsnews.com/media/2004/02/19/video601167.wmv) and this. (http://www.iha.com.tr/sdc.feed.previews/C11597.mpg)

Newly released photos:
http://www.metcalf.ilstu.edu/curric/eighth/8decade/1970smain/amanda%20roberts/phonebooth1.jpghttp://www.metcalf.ilstu.edu/curric/eighth/8decade/1970smain/amanda%20roberts/stuffbth.gifhttp://www.chidelt.org/uwash1.jpg

[BlackRain]

You are very rude person . If you are typical of Amerians , then We are not surprised at abuse :roll:

USA Actively support Iraq in war on Iran and abuse go way back before 1988. If UN did nothing, it is fault of USA/USSR/China /France and UK. Security Council countries made UN the way it is today.


I am sorry. If you mean I am rude because I point out that you are a moron who does not support his arguments or accusations with facts, I apologize.

Where are you from my friend, you never told us? I would love to review your country's political decisions with moral superiority in the same manner as you.

http://www.kotichat.com/forum/html/emoticons/giljotiini.gif

[ExtraT]

The US military uses the AN/PEQ-2A IR laser mounted on weapons isntead of the visible one like that Israeli is using. They require NOD's to see properly.

IDF also uses invisible laser sights.

[incubz5]

budanski,

LOL!

[The Walrus]

Someone commits a murder in your country, does that make everyone in that country a murderer? Those who committed these were just a few bad apples. Please don't sit up on your high horse and make it seem as though, as with collateral damage, mistreatment of enemy prisoners is an american invention. The humuliation photo ops are more preferable to me than to be used as live human medical test subjects. Its loudest coming from Kerry's party, yet I doubt what happened in Abu Ghraib was any worse than what Kerry had admitted to have commited in Vietnam (http://www.talkaboutpeople.com/group/alt.fan.j-garofalo/messages/21611.html).

Just like to clear a few things up
1. I didn't say everyone in the US was a murderer
2. I don't give a crap about what Kerry did/did not do
3. I didn't respond because I wanted to bash America, I hold America in the highest of regards, and supported the war in Iraq. It was just the people here who downplayed the torture as being no more than a mere hazing ritual. Torture there was far more severe than just the humiliation pics shown on TV, some of the stuff in the internal army report is almost up there with Saddams extremeties.
This is really serious and shows a severe lack of discipline which must be adressed immedietaly, not by just court martialling the ones caught on camera, but by making it imperative that the geneva convention and prisoner rights are respected across the Armed forces if the coalition is to minimise some of the great damage done already to the coalitions efforts in Iraq.

[budanski]

Wasnt directed at you.

[front]

The missing people-shredder (http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1155399,00.html)


Who the f*ck cares? Maybe Guardian does, but Guardian is hardly in the same boat as your average Joe.

Put the finger right on the person who claimed in the media that there was a "people shredder".

Not that there might have been... of course.

Just you, who now just throws that claim into the wind and the other person who posted here that there was one, put the facts out so we can see it.

After all... there is so much fog and claims and counter-claims going back and forth.

Show us the facts about this "people-shredder" in light of the press article I posted.

Come on... you have had more than a week. Enough of the "who the **** cares?"

Show us the "people-shredder".

cheers

front

[Kilgor]

The people shredder probably was made up.

But Ive seen video of prisioners being strapped with explosive and being blown up.

But really, if someone told me sadam was throwing people into tree shredders, why wouldnt it be believable ?

[front]

The people shredder probably was made up.

But really, if someone told me sadam was throwing people into tree shredders, why wouldnt it be believable ?

Show us this shredder. That is all.

Nothing about what Saddam may have done or not. This "people shredder" was ALL over the news.

Where are the facts in light of the investigative Guardian article?

cheers

front

[martinexsquaddie]

getting a good kicking if captured with an ak by frontline troops wrong but **** happens :(
Being tortured by MPs who should have known better and had extensive training on prisoner handaling diffrent kettle of fish
either a there a bunch of inbred sadists
b they were following orders
either bad
either command were asleep and did not know they had that family from deliverance on the payroll :(
or they thought they could get away with it :(

[big_les]

getting a good kicking if captured with an ak by frontline troops wrong but **** happens :(
Being tortured by MPs who should have known better and had extensive training on prisoner handaling diffrent kettle of fish
either a there a bunch of inbred sadists
b they were following orders
either bad
either command were asleep and did not know they had that family from deliverance on the payroll :(
or they thought they could get away with it :(

I'm afraid 'thought they could get away with it seems to be exactly the problem. This is such an unusual and wartime situation, you have a whole new generation of sadistic cretin out there who hasn't thought through the consequences of carrying out torture and abuse and needless to say *photographing it*. That's the bit I really don't get, although didn't the US guy who broke the story say he was basically covering his ass by documenting events?

[Argyll]

getting a good kicking if captured with an ak by frontline troops wrong but **** happens :(
Being tortured by MPs who should have known better and had extensive training on prisoner handaling diffrent kettle of fish
either a there a bunch of inbred sadists
b they were following orders
either bad
either command were asleep and did not know they had that family from deliverance on the payroll :(
or they thought they could get away with it :(

I'm afraid 'thought they could get away with it seems to be exactly the problem. This is such an unusual and wartime situation, you have a whole new generation of sadistic cretin out there who hasn't thought through the consequences of carrying out torture and abuse and needless to say *photographing it*. That's the bit I really don't get, although didn't the US guy who broke the story say he was basically covering his ass by documenting events?

Covering his ass or cashing in?
Why did he not take the evidence to the relative authorities?

[big_les]

By 'covering his ass' I meant that he expected they would be found out one day, so he decided to take the photos to make sure he couldn't go down for it on his own. Furthermore he went public when he did presumably to come out smelling better than the others involved, maybe even getting a deal from the authorities and as you say, making a stack of cash. He didn't take them to the authorities straight away because he was, as our American cousins put it, 'chicken-****'.

[weedman]

Why was my IDJ thread deleted?

It was neither insulting nor unobjective.

[Ichhabe]

Why was my IDJ thread deleted?

It was neither insulting nor unobjective.

Don't even try it. You don't know the meaning of those words.

[weedman]

Why was my IDJ thread deleted?

It was neither insulting nor unobjective.

Don't even try it. You don't know the meaning of those words.I'd like to have a mod answering this, ok?

Locking & Explaining is probably acceptable, but just deleting? :roll:

[Maine Finn]

Why was my IDJ thread deleted?

It was neither insulting nor unobjective.

Don't even try it. You don't know the meaning of those words.I'd like to have a mod answering this, ok?

Locking & Explaining is probably acceptable, but just deleting? :roll:

Is not a PM sufficient to gain an explanation? Not everything needs to be spelled out publicly. :roll:

[Argyll]

Why was my IDJ thread deleted?

It was neither insulting nor unobjective.

Don't even try it. You don't know the meaning of those words.I'd like to have a mod answering this, ok?

Locking & Explaining is probably acceptable, but just deleting? :roll:

And I'd like you to shut your face,ok?
Explain IDJ and you might just get an answer,besides,the Mods DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS TO ARROGANT FORUM MEMBERS!!! :bash:

[weedman]

Well, I only tried to talk and to ask for an answer on a peaceful and friendly way.

But you're right, it's your forum and your option to delete stuff you don't like, but I hope people will make their own opinions on such behavior.

[Maine Finn]

Well, I only tried to talk and to ask for an answer on a peaceful and friendly way.

But you're right, it's your forum and your option to delete stuff you don't like, but I hope people will make their own opinions on such behavior.

Try harder?

My opinion is already made. The mods certainly have a measure of power alloted to them by Hood, and they use it at their discretion. That's not say that members cannot complain, but it's far wiser to do so via PMs, rather than on the Forum proper.

~Emily

[Argyll]

Well, I only tried to talk and to ask for an answer on a peaceful and friendly way.

But you're right, it's your forum and your option to delete stuff you don't like, but I hope people will make their own opinions on such behavior.

Weedman I used the exact tone in the way you replied to Maine Finn.

You did not try to talk,you demanded,you do not demand here,otherwise you get ignored.
I asked you what IDJ was for a reason............as I have not got a clue what you're talking about.............maybe Hood deleted it,after all it's his site,and he can do as he damn well pleases,quit whining,if you don't like it here.then go away.............Oh and I forwarded your request to Hood about getting banned,he's obviously looking at it closely p-)

[weedman]

That's not say that members cannot complain, but it's far wiser to do so via PMs, rather than on the Forum proper.

~EmilyI PMed mods twice, but never got any response... :roll:

[Maine Finn]

That's not say that members cannot complain, but it's far wiser to do so via PMs, rather than on the Forum proper.

~EmilyI PMed mods twice, but never got any response... :roll:

All I will say is see Argyll's post above yours.

[weedman]

[as I have not got a clue what you're talking about.............So I can reopen it? :roll:

[Argyll]

That's not say that members cannot complain, but it's far wiser to do so via PMs, rather than on the Forum proper.

~EmilyI PMed mods twice, but never got any response... :roll:

And you think Mods are here 24/7 just to answer ?...........and you never PM'd me..........so your complaints are moot point

[Argyll]

[as I have not got a clue what you're talking about.............So I can reopen it? :roll:



Your choice,as I've no idea of it's contents,if they're inflammatory by other mods standards they'll soon take action

[weedman]

...and you never PM'd me..........


Oh and I forwarded your request to Hood

:roll:

But if you want to talk to me, please use PMs now because we shouldn't use this thread for our struggle anymore ;)

[Fargin]

For Argyll (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=4595)

For Weedman (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=566)

[Argyll]

...and you never PM'd me..........


Oh and I forwarded your request to Hood

:roll:

But if you want to talk to me, please use PMs now because we shouldn't use this thread for our struggle anymore ;)

Why not you asked me to do this in an open forum,infact you almost goaded me to,so who was I to satnd in the way of a request ? p-)

[Argyll]

For Argyll (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=4595)

For Weedman (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/privmsg.php?mode=post&u=566)


rofl nice one mate ;)

[blancitaloca]

2Sheds_Jackson wrote: Yes, I understand that rape and beatings are especially offensive to Muslim women. Coincidentally, having one's head hacked off is particularly offensive to American men. This seems to be an especially offensive war, not like the other wars where people treated each other like family.


RAPE and beatings ARE NOT MORE offensive to Muslim women...sorry chief, but that is a terribly inaccurate statement.

But I agree with the rest of what you said

[weedman]

Well, Argyll wanted me to post my previously "disappeared" thread here in order to keep the number of torture threads low.

Okay my point was the following question:


Wouldn't it be a nice possibility to stand the trials concerning the torture cases of Abu Gharib and others at the International Court of Justice in order to regain respect and reputation in the Arab world?

I know that the US is probably able to do such things on their own, but this would be a very open and neutral process, which would definitely be welcomed in the Arab world, where the US has lost much reputation due to what happened.

What do you think?

[budanski]

I know that the US is probably able to do such things on their own, but this would be a very open and neutral process, which would definitely be welcomed in the Arab world, where the US has lost much reputation due to what happened.

Compared to the arab world's reputation, that doesnt mean much. To be honest, its not like they were calling us up for fridays prayers.

[weedman]

You did not respond to my statement. :roll: