MoveOn.org Calls and Advertises Gen. Petraeus as a Traitor

[Zoomie]

MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor
Do Democrats in Congress agree?
by Pete Hegseth
09/09/2007 5:28:00 PM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7532/petraeusnytadgr3.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=petraeusnytadgr3.jpg)
Tomorrow--as General David Petraeus provides his Iraq assessment to Congress--the antiwar group MoveOn.org is running a full-page advertisement in the New York Times under the headline: "General Petraeus or General Betray us? Cooking the books for the White House."
Let's be clear: MoveOn.org is suggesting that General Petraeus has 'betrayed' his country. This is disgusting. To attack as a traitor an American general commanding forces in war because his 'on the ground' experience does not align with MoveOn.org's political objectives is utterly shameful. It shows contempt for America's military leadership, as well as for the troops who have confidence in him, as our fellow soldiers in Iraq certainly do.
General Petraeus has served this country for over 35 years with honor, distinction, and integrity. And this is not just about General Petraeus. After all, if General Petraeus is "cooking the books," then the entire military chain of command in Baghdad, and all the staff, military and civilian, who have been working with General Petraeus are complicit, since Petraeus did not write his report in isolation. They are all, apparently, 'betray us.'
MoveOn.org has been working closely with the Democratic congressional leadership --as an article in today's Sunday [I]New York Times Magazine makes clear. And consider this comment by a Democratic senator from Friday's Politico: "'No one wants to call [Petraeus] a liar on national TV,' noted one Democratic senator, who spoke on the condition on anonymity. 'The expectation is that the outside groups will do this for http://www.weeklystandard.com/banman/ads/1_Cruise2008a.300x250.jpg (http://www.weeklystandard.com/banman/banman.asp?Task=Click&ZoneID=25&CampaignID=497&AdvertiserID=62&BannerID=645&SiteID=0&RandomNumber=50946)
us.'
So, veterans who served in Iraq ask the Democratic leaders in Congress: Does MoveOn.org speak for you? Do you agree with MoveOn.org? Or do you repudiate this despicable charge?
MoveOn.org has helped frame the core choice: Whom do we trust to run this war--MoveOn.org and its allies in Congress, or Gen. David Petraeus and his colleagues?



Pete Hegseth is executive director of Vets for Freedom and an Iraq War veteran.
Simply disgusting. They may as well just pick up arms and fight alongside the insurgents.

[Freedom-Fries]

Move-on dot org is a stupid site, General David Petraeus is a brave man but the problem with him is that he will be under political pressure to say the strategy plan is working well and we have studied all the mistakes in Nam. Nobody in Congress wants to hear the real truth anymore.

[Freibier]

Well, looks like Petraeus IS cooking ze books

[grenadier07]

It would be nice if people on BOTH sides of the aisle would just shut the hell up and let those on the ground over there do their jobs without all this fuss. It won't ever happen but I can still dream.

[kamaz]

I've read Petraeus COIN manual that was recently published. This man lives and breathes COIN. and his hard work and planning has paid off in Anbar and cities like Fallujah that are now stable and increasingly under control of iraqi sec forces. Roadside bombings are at an all time low in these areas.

so if its an opinion between leftist political hacks at Moveon, or a tested and proven leader like Gen Petraeus, there is no question as to whom I'll believe.

[BloodyTalon]

I love the fact that Petraeus has yet to release his report and already we have a bunch of lefties (who have probably never served a single day in their life, i'd like to add) saying that he's wrong, that he's a Bush cronie, and now that he's a traitor. And if anyone still doubts that their are people in this country that are dead set on wanting us to lose for whatever twisted reason, here's your proof.

[Laworkerbee]

I've read Petraeus COIN manual that was recently published. This man lives and breathes COIN. and his hard work and planning has paid off in Anbar and cities like Fallujah that are now stable and increasingly under control of iraqi sec forces. Roadside bombings are at an all time low in these areas.

so if its an opinion between leftist political hacks at Moveon, or a tested and proven leader like Gen Petraeus, there is no question as to whom I'll believe.

X2 easiest decision I will make today.

[Hollis]

I love the fact that Petraeus has yet to release his report and already we have a bunch of lefties (who have probably never served a single day in their life, i'd like to add) saying that he's wrong, that he's a Bush cronie, and now that he's a traitor. And if anyone still doubts that their are people in this country that are dead set on wanting us to lose for whatever twisted reason, here's your proof.


Time for:.................... a friendly reminder.


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/Liberals1.jpg

[EsoognomEhT]

General Betray us


hehehehe very good

[XASA]

Petraeus has only himself to blame for becoming a lightning rod for those, like MoveOn.org, who disagree with Bush's Iraqi policy. He made quite clear he had a political agenda when he inserted himself in the 2004 election by writing an Op-Ed in the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49283-2004Sep25.html

In that Op-Ed, he claimed that the Iraqi army and police were on the right track. We now know they weren't. He also claimed considerable progress in the reconstruction process. As the man responsible for bringing the Iraqis up to speed in 2004, can anyone say with a straight face he was successful? Like all officers who make general, they know how to cover their ass. One wonders why he is getting all the praise now since, obviously, his Op-Ed in support of the war and his predictions were totally wrong.

Generals (Shineski) who disagree with Bush are push aside, generals who agree with him (Pace & Petraeus) are promoted.

Reminds me of Westmoreland address to Congress in 1967 when he claimed we could see the light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam. He was right, we could see the light and Charlie was holding it.

I agree, let's wait and see what he has to say, but I don't think anyone with a modicum of common sense can believe politics doesn't play an important part in Petraeus report.

[California Joe]

They're just left wing bomb throwers. They do the same sh*t Anne Coulter and her ilk get off on from the other side.

[nemowork]

Speaking of left wing bomb throwers, would somebody explain the pink crowns the protesters are wearing at the hearing?

Any way back on point!

Did anybody expect it to be totally impartial? Their point is that they want more time to succeed so theyre going to say the glass is half full!
I doubt they would change the facts but theyre going to concentrate on their successes every time!

[BloodyTalon]

Speaking of left wing bomb throwers, would somebody explain the pink crowns the protesters are wearing at the hearing?
They're from Code Pink(o). And guess who was with them...
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/cindy-sheehan-arrested-in-outside-petraeus-hearing-2007-09-10.html


Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan was arrested Monday in or near the hearing room where General David Petraeus and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker are testifying on the situation in Iraq, according to the U.S. Capitol Police.

Four anti-war protesters were arrested for disorderly conduct. One of them, who was not named, is being taken to George Washington Hospital “due to complaint of injury” is also charged with assault on a police officer.

According to the information from the Capitol Police, Sheehan and the other three were shouting in a hallway.

[vryhpyammoadded]

So will Move on, the Netroots Dim’s, AQ and the Iraqi insurgents be throwing a Tet party in Iraq this week for that ironic propaganda wet dream? You know they all want it and the press will eat it up too. So who will claim the Cronkite roll and say we've lost?

[BloodyTalon]

So will Move on, the Netroots Dim’s, AQ and the Iraqi insurgents be throwing a Tet party in Iraq this week for that ironic propaganda wet dream? You know they all want it and the press will eat it up too. So who will claim the Cronkite roll and say we've lost?
Well, Harry Reid has already claimed that we lost...then took it back.

[shocker1]

It is one thing to question policy and protest war. It is another to attack people on an individual basis. As if these groups had any credibility to be concerned with anyway.

[Ordie]

The American public are accustomed to applying 'metrics' in every aspect of thier lives.

Many now have the attitude of "what gets measured, gets done".

Unfortunately it gets us into a trap of promising a lot, but not delivering enough to satisfy everyone.

It becomes at its worst when it is politisized and each skewes the numbers to their advantage.

So much so that "Think Tanks" are just as influential as the lobbyists.

[shocker1]

So much so that "Think Tanks" are just as influential as the lobbyists.
I agree, people need to read this and the entire site.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

[California Joe]

It is one thing to question policy and protest war. It is another to attack people on an individual basis. As if these groups had any credibility to be concerned with anyway.

My point exactly.

[Chulo]

Moveon is gettin too big for their own heads anyway, compaired to the last persidental race u see that this round they are not as actively supported or talked about by the runners.

[pistol]

So the general concensus here is that Petraeus is a 100% politically neutral source for facts about what is going on on the ground in Iraq?

[Laworkerbee]

So the general concensus here is that Petraeus is a 100% politically neutral source for facts about what is going on on the ground in Iraq?

Did you bother reading the posts such as XASA's before yours? http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6551/7180yu8.gif

This isn't MoveOn.Org, there are actually differences of opinion here.

[shocker1]

I am not a Fan of Bush's leadership of this war. However with all the info available and the testimony of the Gen and the Ambassador. I feel like things are moving the right direction. I was satisfied with the report we were given and the Ambassador was candid in his assessment. I have problems with this war but I support what the General put forth.

Yes I watched most of the hearings today and have the whole thing on the box.

[Laworkerbee]

XASA

In regards to Westmorelands address to Congress in 1967 and comparing it to Petraeus speech, I can say that they were too close for comfort for my liking.

[pistol]

Did you bother reading the posts such as XASA's before yours? http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6551/7180yu8.gif

This isn't MoveOn.Org, there are actually differences of opinion here.

Hah. That's one dissenting opinion in two pages of replies...

[XASA]

XASA

In regards to Westmorelands address to Congress in 1967 and comparing it to Petraeus speech, I can say that they were too close for comfort for my liking.

Striking similarities.

Westmoreland was correct in asserting we were winning militarily; however, politically, we were losing because the South Vietnamese government was corrupt. Also, the Vietnamese military, after years of training, war and billions of dollars invested in equipment, were not up to speed to take over from us when we left in 1973. Petraeus is, rightfully, saying that the surge is showing some positive military results but the Iraqi government hasn't taken advantage of those military gains.

Ironically, one difference I can see between 1967 and 2007 is that the Democrats were in office. They then lost to the Republicans the next year because Nixon promised he had a plan to end the war. It goes to show both parties can be inept when it comes to waging war or get elected by opposing a war.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

It would be nice if people on BOTH sides of the aisle would just shut the hell up and let those on the ground over there do their jobs without all this fuss. It won't ever happen but I can still dream.

You know I started a thread a while back calling into question the readiness of the the USA Armed forces, and had a bunch of people here write all typs of trash.....and I am going to make another point, because this topic falls rright into that thread.

The military, has TOO much civilian oversight. Generals, who should be standing up and taking charge, are not because they are buffaloed into saying other wise because if they spoke contrary, it would affect their careers. This is a classic example of poor leadership, and this has been written about by former commanders of units in Iraq.

Iraq, and the press about the surge, and saying we can cut troop levels, and other crap, is being spun out there because of certain fools in high places want to bring discredit upon the president, and the military. It is a much more easy way to sell crap to the gullable american public, if you can prove that anything we do is a lost cause, and that we are losers.

The liberal left wing trash, that is being pumped out is there to draw attention from the fact that the current military tactics are still working.
It is being done, because next year is a glorious time of change. When we put some other fool up in the whitehouse, and he manages to f-up already what has been ironed out.

I only hope that Petarious will not bend into political pressure, and cut troop levels too soon. Because if he does, then he is part of the problem, not the solution.

[mas-36]

They're just left wing bomb throwers. They do the same sh*t Anne Coulter and her ilk get off on from the other side.

Interesting comparison, but with a very distinct difference. Notice how Moveon.org's attack of General Petraeus is being criticized by both parties, whereas A. Coulter's call for John Edward's assasination was met with a very mute GOP. This suggests to me that the wingnut fringe of the Neo-cons would probably condone the assasination of members of the political opposition.

[11 Bravo]

Interesting comparison, but with a very distinct difference. Notice how Moveon.org's attack of General Petraeus is being criticized by both parties, whereas A. Coulter's call for John Edward's assasination was met with a very mute GOP. This suggests to me that the wingnut fringe of the Neo-cons would probably condone the assasination of members of the political opposition.


............... this suggests to me you need to lay off the leftnutty flavored soma.Please contact your shrink very soon for a dose readjustment.

[Laworkerbee]

............... this suggests to me you need to lay off the leftnutty flavored soma.Please contact your shrink very soon for a dose readjustment.

He has a point, there lacks wide spread condemnation of Ann (do me in the rear) Coulter on the right.

[Mu-Meson]

Interesting comparison, but with a very distinct difference. Notice how Moveon.org's attack of General Petraeus is being criticized by both parties, whereas A. Coulter's call for John Edward's assasination was met with a very mute GOP. This suggests to me that the wingnut fringe of the Neo-cons would probably condone the assasination of members of the political opposition.

Yo mas36, considering your position on the issue, I would have thought you would be suitably nuanced to actually comprehend what Coulter actually said.



No, no. There were, I was denounced all over. All over. I think the one that hurt the most was, was from I'mALittleGirlInAPinkPartyDress.com… Very upsetting…Though about the same time Bill Maher said - and by the way, I did not call John Edwards the F-word. I said I couldn't talk about him because you go into rehab for using that word.
[…]
But about the same time, you know, Bill Maher was not joking and saying he wished **** Cheney had been killed in a terrorist attack. So I've learned my lesson. If I'm gonna say anything about John Edwards in the future, I'll just wish he had been killed in a terrorist assassination plot.http://newsbusters.org/node/13750

IMHO she didn't get enough criticism from the right about her f-word comment. But to not even bother reading what she said beyond the 2 second sound bite is pretty weak. I didn't hear much complaining from the left about Maher's obvious non-joke about Cheney being assassinated. But here you are complaining about the right not condemning Coulter for what is clearly a cleverly worded jab. 11 Bravo is right, that soma is potent.

[mas-36]

But here you are complaining about the right not condemning Coulter for what is clearly a cleverly worded jab. 11 Bravo is right, that soma is potent.


May I suggest that both you and 11 bravo share a soma, say one glass and two straws? Bill Maher tells jokes and makes satirical drivel on the day's issues. This is what he does for a living. Ann Coulter makes a living by saying very stupid things very seriously, knowing full well that many people take them seriously. However, when she's cornered, she blames everyone else for taking her words "out of context". Big difference.

And to think that Maher and Coulter use to be good friends! Ugh! Well I guess the *** was good for a while.

[Covert_US]

....Libel?

[Shellshock1918]

As a conservative against the war, I find this ad despicable. It really is low to try and drag him down in the political ****-hole that Washington is.

[pistol]

As a conservative against the war, I find this ad despicable. It really is low to try and drag him down in the political ****-hole that Washington is.

Did you find his oddly timed fall 2004 op-ed (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49283-2004Sep25.html) "despicable" too, or was that sort of political meddling acceptable?

[BloodyTalon]

Did you find his oddly timed fall 2004 op-ed (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49283-2004Sep25.html) "despicable" too, or was that sort of political meddling acceptable?
Wow. He wrote an op-ed.

And this makes him a traitor how again, or are you grasping at straws?

[pistol]

Wow. He wrote an op-ed.

And this makes him a traitor how again, or are you grasping at straws?

Why do you think he's a traitor?

[BloodyTalon]

Why do you think he's a traitor?
I don't. I believe that he is a patriot and a great commander, and that he knows far more about COIN and the situation in iraq than the overwhelming majority of politicians (democrat and republican) in the house, senate, and executive branch. Not to mention 100% of the members of Moveon.org and those foam tiara-wearing hags during the testimony.

You, on the other hand, seem to think labeling him as a traitor is alright because he wrote an op-ed you didn't agree with.

[pistol]

I don't. I believe that he is a patriot and a great commander, and that he knows far more about COIN and the situation in iraq than the overwhelming majority of politicians (democrat and republican) in the house, senate, and executive branch. Not to mention 100% of the members of Moveon.org.

You, on the other hand, seem to think labeling him as a traitor is alright because he wrote an op-ed you didn't agree with.

Hahaha. Did I really write "labeling him as a traitor is alright", or did you just make that up?

[Shadowstorm]

F**k MoveOn.org.

[BloodyTalon]

Hahaha. Did I really write "labeling him as a traitor is alright", or did you just make that up?
You responded to a quote by another member about how wrong it is attack General Petraeus in the manner that Moveon has done with a link to an OP-ED piece he wrote a couple years ago. I'm not accusing you of being in support of the accusation, but you seem to be implying that since the general voiced his opinion before he is open to these sort of attacks no matter how inappropriate they are.

[budgie]

They're just left wing bomb throwers. They do the same sh*t Anne Coulter and her ilk get off on from the other side.


Ditto. MoveOn are the extreme fringe - the nutters the right like to paint as reprsenting the entire liberal/progressive spectrum. They do not represent the majority of the 'left' and most certainly not of the Democratic Party.

Speaking from the left myself, it appears Petraeus has told it straight and as usual it will be up to Fox news to claim a victory and the various other organisations to take it a little more soberly.

My take so far (and I haven't read the whole testimony, just highlights) is that Petraeus' military goals and objectives have been largely realised but the overall political process to bring peace and reconciliation is lagging. That's fair as he was brought in to achieve security goals anyway. He told it like it is and MoveOn are jumping the gun to claim that he's giving a rosy assessment. It may just be in anticipation of the rosy spin that right-wing media are going to put on it, which proves the old addage about the truth and its boots.

Since the drawdown figures Petraeus has given indicate it will take until next July for troop levels to come down to 'pre-surge' levels, that does suggest Bush was exaggerating at times when he claimed the surge may only last a few months (instead of a whole year) but then he marketed his surge with the caveat that the Generals on the ground would know best how long to keep it up. So when Petraeus says that the surge has mostly worked, remember it was only a limited measure anyway and that the media have run away with the iddea that it was supposed to be a panacea for all of Iraq's problems. To give a rosy assessment of the surge's narrow goals so far might smack of a general patting himself on the back, but that's fair enough if he's acheived those goals.

As for whether the surge 'worked' I recall Argyll's point about the hot summer months being generally slow on the Jihadist calendar and that the factional fighting usually proves worse over the cooler months to come. Now if the exceptionally bloody month of August was 'slow' compared to what might come over the winter, then the real test of the surge lies ahead. The surge is still in progress after all.

Long after troop levels have come back down there will be plenty of time to judge whether the surge worked. Not now while it is still in progress. Will there be an uptick in violence mirroring the decline at the start of the surge or will the relative security it brought to some areas continue to hold? Will that stability lead to the reconciliation of Iraq's factions and parties needed to end the war entirely? The surge is a pretty small aspect of the whole affair and the political outcome is still far from certain.

[pistol]

You responded to a quote by another member about how wrong it is attack General Petraeus in the manner that Moveon has done with a link to an OP-ED piece he wrote a couple years ago. I'm not accusing you of being in support of the accusation, but you seem to be implying that since the general voiced his opinion before he is open to these sort of attacks no matter how inappropriate they are.

Nah, the post said:



It really is low to try and drag him down in the political ****-hole that Washington is.


I was just pointing out that Petraeus jumped head over heals into the "political ****-hole that Washington is" when he chose to inject himself into the politics of the 2004 presidential campaign. Suggesting that he is a traitor, or using any other "swift boat" tactics employed by the GOP is definitely childish and unecessary, but let's not pretend Petraeus is completely apolitical.

[usmcprincipal]

While I'm not disputing that Democrats are critical of the MoveOn.Org piece on General Petraeus, I've not read any direct criticism from a a Democratic politician thus far.

Have any of the leading Democratic contenders for the office of President issued a statement regarding this matter?

As for MoveOn.Org representing the extreme left views of the Democratic party, particularly in regard to Iraq, I would agree; however, this organization, as well as the DailyKos have been very influential in shifting the center to the left in the development of the Democratic view of Iraq.

Democratic politicians have had to perform a delicate balancing act, which includes pandering to MoveOn.Org, the DailyKos, Code Pink, et al. While I, too, believe they represent a minority view within the Democratic Party, their influence over party politics should not be minimized, particularly since recent history indicates they are far more influential than their numbers merit.
_________

Semper Fi

[BugHunt]

It is one thing to question policy and protest war. It is another to attack people on an individual basis. As if these groups had any credibility to be concerned with anyway.

Muahahah sorry but - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiftboating :)


Honor probably the same as Bush getting so much political gains from the Swift boat movement then giving one rye grinned speech distancing himself from them.....

Im gonna bet theres a huge number of "republican" posters on MP who'll now take the moral high ground and now claim horror at the swift boaters. But a bit of searching will find pages of posts of them supporting and wallowing in the sh!t flung by them ;)



I think Petraeus has given a over rosy view on the situation over there. We are winning militarily (did any1 expect otherwise?) but there hasnt been any political gains to shore or backup the sacrifices and money spent.

He knows this and shouldve been strong enough to say - this is a temporary fix therefore we MUST think of doing something else. The "surge" goes over until middle of next year - WHAT THEN?

The fact that Petraeus and Bush dont want to contemplate plan B - which is probably going to be a messy withdraw (either to bases or out the region) or the draft, and wish to merely hand it off to the next admin.


So far the grand strategy seems to be shore up the sunni's and cross your fingers....which basically says civil war down the road.


I hate to say it but im guessing history is gonna damn Petraeus for not grasping the nettle and instead saying what Bush wanted....



How many billions would they pay to have a strong man like Saddam back in power tomorrow?

[mas-36]

They're just left wing bomb throwers. They do the same sh*t Anne Coulter and her ilk get off on from the other side.

True to form, who should Fox news have to respond to the Moveon.org piece, none other than the character assasin herself - Ann Coulter. Makes me wonder if the people at MO.org and Coulter secretly love eachother.

[budgie]

True to form, who should Fox news have to respond to the Moveon.org piece, none other than the character assasin herself - Ann Coulter. Makes me wonder if the people at MO.org and Coulter secretly love eachother.

They're working together for ratings :)


Im gonna bet theres a huge number of "republican" posters on MP who'll now take the moral high ground and now claim horror at the swift boaters. But a bit of searching will find pages of posts of them supporting and wallowing in the sh!t flung by them

I doubt it. They all believe it was okay in Kerry's case.

[shocker1]

Muahahah sorry but - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiftboating :)


Honor probably the same as Bush getting so much political gains from the Swift boat movement then giving one rye grinned speech distancing himself from them.....

Im gonna bet theres a huge number of "republican" posters on MP who'll now take the moral high ground and now claim horror at the swift boaters. But a bit of searching will find pages of posts of them supporting and wallowing in the sh!t flung by them ;)



I think Petraeus has given a over rosy view on the situation over there. We are winning militarily (did any1 expect otherwise?) but there hasnt been any political gains to shore or backup the sacrifices and money spent.

He knows this and shouldve been strong enough to say - this is a temporary fix therefore we MUST think of doing something else. The "surge" goes over until middle of next year - WHAT THEN?

The fact that Petraeus and Bush dont want to contemplate plan B - which is probably going to be a messy withdraw (either to bases or out the region) or the draft, and wish to merely hand it off to the next admin.


So far the grand strategy seems to be shore up the sunni's and cross your fingers....which basically says civil war down the road.


I hate to say it but im guessing history is gonna damn Petraeus for not grasping the nettle and instead saying what Bush wanted....



How many billions would they pay to have a strong man like Saddam back in power tomorrow?
I have no idea what you are trying to say to me but please do search my post history and find me SUPPORTING the attacks on Kerry. I find all unelected non-profits having too much influence on politics in the name of the people. As far as who to blame for failure, Bush has that under his belt.

[Mastermind]

The whole thing sounds so much like the day Westmorland delivered his Vietnam assessments just a few weeks before the Tet offensive of 1968. I was personally a witness to the strength of the enemy and quite happy they were finally coming out to do battle in a conventional sense. We kicked the living S out of them and utterly eviscerated their on-ground military capability for a long time after. But, the whiners in congress chose to listen to the wiener media and the college kid draft dodger toke squads and quickly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

I see almost exactly the very same scenario building now. This enemy is very clever, very tech savvy and quite tuned to our idiotic political schizophrenia. Now, in this swamp gas political atmosphere, all the enemy has to do is present a little "surge" of their own...one last gasp of battle and the victory will be delivered to them on a silver platter ...courtesy of the democrat a$$ kissers in congress. Their absolute hatred of all-things-Bush culminating from the Flori-duh fiasco puts them squarely in the enemy camp....they would gladly watch America be defeated and humiliated by a rag-tag gang of murdering thugs than see us stand a victory while Bush in office. How sad.

[BugHunt]

MM so do you actually see the Iraqi government "turning a corner" in the next few months?

If not what other factors on the ground will cause a political victory?

[Hollis]

The link is on the thread Amateur Experts;

"Not only is General Petraeus reporting progress, so have a couple of Brookings Institution scholars who have studied the situation in Iraq -- and who are liberal Democrats who had worked for Senator Kerry's presidential campaign in 2004."

[Mastermind]

No way will Iraq turn a corner in the next few months. Think of this as if it were North and south Korea....no end of "War" but continuing forever hostility. These Muslim Radical elements will not quit...not ever. Furthermore, I do not believe Iraq or Afghanistan, being Muslim entities, will ever accept or adopt "Democracy" as a form of government...it's simply like mixing oil and water. We still have not "gotten it" as a people. We believe the world must be as enlightened as we are...and dark places like Darfur and Somalia, the Congo and Rwanda are pleasantly put out of our sight and minds. But, places like Iraq and Af can not be put away or ignored because they came right to out door steps....sure I know all the "theories" that Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 and yet, we miss the point that they are merely convenient places to confront the new nationless enemy of radical Islam...which will never ever change and will never ever quit trying to destroy us and our way of life. We simply have not gotten mean enough to stop them and very likely never will. Even if we did achieve that level of draconian determination, they would still not be defeated...they would merely be put dormant for a short time...and eventually they would come again...only stronger with even more destructive capability. You can never defeat this kind of barbarian with restraint and kindness....they will become like a non-removable wart on our faces...they will simply keep us very busy for a very long time....we will stop them one day when we can no longer afford to be nice, when we are united in our determination to resist them...when we finally get totally fed up with their murdering, neck sawing, car bombing, civilian slaughtering ways...when we quit living in fantasy-land where everything is law and order and kind and enlightened. When we realize there really are monsters in this world that can only be put down with as much murderous violence as they will ultimately respect.

Until that day comes, we will always have to be there facing them, dribbling bits and chunks of our own young people's flesh and blood and our nation's treasure.

Well...that's my little 9/11 rant....Whew!...sorry ....didn't mean to get carried away, there...but it did feel good.

[SoftLion]

No way will Iraq turn a corner in the next few months. Think of this as if it were North and south Korea....no end of "War" but continuing forever hostility. These Muslim Radical elements will not quit...not ever. Furthermore, I do not believe Iraq or Afghanistan, being Muslim entities, will ever accept or adopt "Democracy" as a form of government...it's simply like mixing oil and water. We still have not "gotten it" as a people. We believe the world must be as enlightened as we are...and dark places like Darfur and Somalia, the Congo and Rwanda are pleasantly put out of our sight and minds. But, places like Iraq and Af can not be put away or ignored because they came right to out door steps....sure I know all the "theories" that Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 and yet, we miss the point that they are merely convenient places to confront the new nationless enemy of radical Islam...which will never ever change and will never ever quit trying to destroy us and our way of life. We simply have not gotten mean enough to stop them and very likely never will. Even if we did achieve that level of draconian determination, they would still not be defeated...they would merely be put dormant for a short time...and eventually they would come again...only stronger with even more destructive capability. You can never defeat this kind of barbarian with restraint and kindness....they will become like a non-removable wart on our faces...they will simply keep us very busy for a very long time....we will stop them one day when we can no longer afford to be nice, when we are united in our determination to resist them...when we finally get totally fed up with their murdering, neck sawing, car bombing, civilian slaughtering ways...when we quit living in fantasy-land where everything is law and order and kind and enlightened. When we realize there really are monsters in this world that can only be put down with as much murderous violence as they will ultimately respect.

Until that day comes, we will always have to be there facing them, dribbling bits and chunks of our own young people's flesh and blood and our nation's treasure.

Well...that's my little 9/11 rant....Whew!...sorry ....didn't mean to get carried away, there...but it did feel good.


Well spoken sir and couldn't agree more

[history nut]

This may be a little off topic..... Move On is not original enough to coin the phrase "General Betray Us". This moniker was coined by members of the 101st themselves during the invasion of Iraq BUT was a reference to the general getting to live in an air conditioned trailer, drinking chilled water, eating better food and other normal top brass perks while the rank and file had no such comforts that the time. I know this to be fact from a 2004 conversation that I had with a group of 101st pilots and soldiers of various ranks. Petraeus is a smart and well educated man and was thinking far ahead of the military and civilian leadership in the post invasion period and, if I'm not mistaken, was the first to actively court the cooperation of the Iraqis to try to stem the violence and try to get civil affairs and infastructure sorted out. A concept that was to pave the way for the "surge" and other reconstruction efforts.

[Beowulf]

This may be a little off topic..... Move On is not original enough to coin the phrase "General Betray Us". This moniker was coined by members of the 101st themselves during the invasion of Iraq BUT was a reference to the general getting to live in an air conditioned trailer, drinking chilled water, eating better food and other normal top brass perks while the rank and file had no such comforts that the time. I know this to be fact from a 2004 conversation that I had with a group of 101st pilots and soldiers of various ranks. Petraeus is a smart and well educated man and was thinking far ahead of the military and civilian leadership in the post invasion period and, if I'm not mistaken, was the first to actively court the cooperation of the Iraqis to try to stem the violence and try to get civil affairs and infastructure sorted out. A concept that was to pave the way for the "surge" and other reconstruction efforts.



"Oh no the 4 star has AC....he's betrayed us" -PFC Snuffy

"Shut the **** up Private and go stir the ****ters" -Beo

[Hollis]

LOL, when I was high school, I knew a old man who was a dough boy (WWI). I mentioned I was planning to go to the Naval Academy. He stated it was better to be a officer, "Why walk when you can ride!".

OH My, the General had New York Cheese cake for desert.

I think he probably paid his dues.

[history nut]

Common and typical soldier gripes to be sure - that was my point - not a moniker that the clever folks at Move On created.

[Blackwater11114]

No way will Iraq turn a corner in the next few months. Think of this as if it were North and south Korea....no end of "War" but continuing forever hostility. These Muslim Radical elements will not quit...not ever. Furthermore, I do not believe Iraq or Afghanistan, being Muslim entities, will ever accept or adopt "Democracy" as a form of government...it's simply like mixing oil and water. We still have not "gotten it" as a people. We believe the world must be as enlightened as we are...and dark places like Darfur and Somalia, the Congo and Rwanda are pleasantly put out of our sight and minds. But, places like Iraq and Af can not be put away or ignored because they came right to out door steps....sure I know all the "theories" that Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 and yet, we miss the point that they are merely convenient places to confront the new nationless enemy of radical Islam...which will never ever change and will never ever quit trying to destroy us and our way of life. We simply have not gotten mean enough to stop them and very likely never will. Even if we did achieve that level of draconian determination, they would still not be defeated...they would merely be put dormant for a short time...and eventually they would come again...only stronger with even more destructive capability. You can never defeat this kind of barbarian with restraint and kindness....they will become like a non-removable wart on our faces...they will simply keep us very busy for a very long time....we will stop them one day when we can no longer afford to be nice, when we are united in our determination to resist them...when we finally get totally fed up with their murdering, neck sawing, car bombing, civilian slaughtering ways...when we quit living in fantasy-land where everything is law and order and kind and enlightened. When we realize there really are monsters in this world that can only be put down with as much murderous violence as they will ultimately respect.

Until that day comes, we will always have to be there facing them, dribbling bits and chunks of our own young people's flesh and blood and our nation's treasure.

Well...that's my little 9/11 rant....Whew!...sorry ....didn't mean to get carried away, there...but it did feel good.

This is one of the most intelligent posts i have seen here in a long time.... i agree fully.... wake up and smell the roses people.... won't last for to much longer..

[AOCBravo2004]

Reminds me of Westmoreland address to Congress in 1967 when he claimed we could see the light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam. He was right, we could see the light and Charlie was holding it.

You might want to re-read history, "Charlie" or the Viet Cong was defeated after Tet 68, if it wasn't for the damn media IE Cronkite, well.....

[California Joe]

He was there, were you?

[Shellshock1918]

Did you find his oddly timed fall 2004 op-ed (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49283-2004Sep25.html) "despicable" too, or was that sort of political meddling acceptable?

because in his sector he was seeing progress. The insurgency didn't really kick in full gear until 2006.

[WhiskeyTango]

source Breitbart.com: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070912192004.0ibhnqhl&show_article=1

Petraeus rebuffs 'war criminal' critics Sep 12 03:20 PM US/Eastern
The US commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, hit back Wednesday at anti-war critics (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D) who accused him of being a White House stooge during an emotive two days of testimony at Congress.

As Petraeus and Baghdad ambassador Ryan Crocker (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D) prepared to deliver their appraisal of Iraq to US lawmakers on Monday, left-wing group MoveOn.org took out a full-page newspaper advertisement to denounce "General Betray Us."
At a news conference following the gruelling sessions in Congress, Petraeus said an old friend had sent him a copy of Rudyard Kipling's poem "If" -- which speaks of treating those "two impostors," triumph and defeat, just the same.
"I took some strength, I think, from that," the four-star general said.
"Needless to say, to state the obvious, I disagree with the message of those who are exercising the First Amendment right (to free speech (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D)) that generations of soldiers have sought to preserve for Americans.
"Some of it was just flat, completely wrong. The rest was at least more than arguable," Petraeus said of the ad, which coincided with some Democratic lawmakers' claims that the general was not an independent voice on Iraq.
The two days of congressional hearings were interrupted by screams from activists, including from the Code Pink feminist group, accusing Petraeus of being a "war criminal (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D)" who was being less than honest with the US public.
Some of the questioning, especially from two Senate hearings on Tuesday, grew spiky as Democrats and even some Republicans questioned President George W. Bush's strategy of surging about 30,000 more troops into Iraq.
In his testimony, which Petraeus insisted was not vetted by anyone at the White House or the Pentagon, the general recommended a gradual withdrawal of combat troops to pre-surge levels -- around 130,000 -- by mid-2008.
At the news conference, Crocker acknowledged US lawmakers' frustration with the halting pace of change in strife-torn Iraq (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D) but said he had come away from the hearings "somewhat encouraged."
"I've got to get back to my day job (in Baghdad) and I'm actually looking forward to it," he added to laughter.
"But I feel pleased and privileged that I did have the opportunity, as did General Petraeus, to lay out our unvarnished views on what Iraqi reality is now and where it looks to us like it's going," Crocker said.
Petraeus also hinted at some relief to be leaving the pressure-cooker politics of Capitol Hill (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D) for the heat, dust and danger of Iraq.
"I will go home... It is home now, Iraq," he told the Senate foreign relations committee Tuesday.

WhiskeyTango

[AZRON]

Ditto. MoveOn are the extreme fringe - the nutters the right like to paint as reprsenting the entire liberal/progressive spectrum. They do not represent the majority of the 'left' and most certainly not of the Democratic Party.


Am I wrong or didn't MO. brag after the Nov.'06 elections that it was the CENTER of the Dem. party as it had spent the money and owned it ?
Some Dems have stated the the ad was wrong but how many of those with their hat in the POTUS race ring have ?
Ann Coulter is a bomb thrower just like Al Franken. Franken is running for the U.S. Senate from Mn. with lots of money. Sounds like a MO. CENTRIST to me.
Where is Ann Coulter running ?

[Ordie]

As a lifelong Democrat, I find organizations such as Move On too myopic in thier rehtoric without looking at the big picture.

During the 2004 elections, I ran into several Move On volunteers at a street fair in St. Paul, Minnesota. Many were from the West Coast and were energetic in thier political ideology. So much so they were saying

"Let get kick out the stupid idiot Bush vote Kerry".

I engaged one of these volunteers and told him that his choice of words and language in front of families and kids is not appropriate and counter-productive. Saying such things may be the norm in college campuses, but not in the Midwest.

Based on what I witnessed, I knew the Midwest was a loss for Kerry.

The next presidential battlefield will be the "Middle".

In order to be effective, Move On needs to think with the end in mind and change thier strategy.

Progress without strategy is regress.