What is a Queens Corporal?

[Pronto]

This would be a question more for those in the British Commonwealth forces.

A number of years ago there was a rare creature called a "Queens Corporal". I believe it was something to do with after 20 years as a soldier and not being promoted you got Queens Corporal. This is my basic understanding.

I am just after a clearer understanding as not too many at work are really into the history of what we do. And fewer that were around at the time that this rank still existed.

Also, was the rank different? I have heard that there was a crown on the rank? Images would be great.

Any help would be great. Thanks guys.

[digrar]

This would be a question more for those in the British Commonwealth forces.

A number of years ago there was a rare creature called a "Queens Corporal". I believe it was something to do with after 20 years as a soldier and not being promoted you got Queens Corporal. This is my basic understanding.

I am just after a clearer understanding as not too many at work are really into the history of what we do. And fewer that were around at the time that this rank still existed.

Also, was the rank different? I have heard that there was a crown on the rank? Images would be great.

Any help would be great. Thanks guys.

I go this from diggershistory.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm#king



SOUTH AFRICAN WAR 1899-1902 http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/buttons/icon-top.gif (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm#Top)
Confining ourselves to the wars of recent times in which Australian troops have taken part we find that during the South African War, 1899-1902, those officers and soldiers who received a "mention" had their names included in the London Gazette. It was reprinted in South African Army Orders, and again in local General Orders. The recipient had no personal outward sign to show that he had received a "mention", unless of course, some decoration as well had been conferred upon him.

Other forms of "mention" during this campaign were the promotion of other ranks to

"King's Corporal" and
"Kitchener Sergeant", and the presentation of the coveted
"Queen's Scarf ". http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/buttons/icon-top.gif (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm#Top)
The history of King's Corporal and Kitchener Sergeant in the Army is known to some, but is frequently the subject of argument. A writer to the Journal of Army Historical Research, 1935, states that the current tradition of the rank was instituted as a reward for gallantry during the South African War and existed during that campaign only. Private soldiers, it is said, once promoted King's Corporal-supernumerary to regimental establishment - could never be reduced except by the King himself.
In the same journal for 1936 a reprint from the Naval and Military Journal quoted the following on the subject of King's Corporal, which apparently was a "mention": "There was an official suggestion in 1901 to the effect that soldiers who had distinguished themselves in war-time, but were unsuited to be NCOs in peace-time, should be given some mark of distinction on the right arm, preferably an embroidered band, carrying with it a step in rank whilst actually on active service, with additional pay, and a donation of £10 at the end of it.
Some members of the War Office Committee who sat to consider the proposal objected to the monetary grant, urging that such was derogatory to the soldier, but one of them pointed out that "Lord Roberts had not hesitated to accept £100,000, so I cannot see why a soldier should object to receive £10." The idea, however, was not adopted, though some men were specially promoted in the field in the latter stages of the Boer War, and were generally known as 'Kitchener Sergeants'."
Many inquiries were made during World War II on the question of King's Corporal, whether it really existed or not. On 22 October 1944 a letter appeared in the London Times referring to the statement made by the Secretary of State for War in the British Parliament on 10 October. It had been asked on what authority Lord Kitchener had promoted a rifleman of the Rifle Brigade to the rank of King's Corporal on 8 December 1901. Other correspondents cited additional instances. The Times writer asked: "Can any authority say what the award is intended to convey to the recipient if it is not recognized in the War Office?" http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/buttons/icon-top.gif (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm#Top)
During the South African War Australian contingents had King's Corporals and Kitchener Sergeants. It is recorded in official orders that two corporals and a lance-corporal were promoted sergeant and five troopers, a lance corporal and a private were promoted corporal by the Commander-in-Chief for gallantry in the field. These were termed "King's Corporals" and "Kitchener Sergeants" and the promotions were announced in orders under the heading of "mentions", and were published in the London Gazette.
The order announcing the promotions stated that "the General Commanding-in-Chief had been pleased to sanction the following promotions of NCOs and men for distinguished gallantry in the field (should they be desirous of accepting it). Such promotion to take effect in each case from the date mentioned on which the act was performed.



I recall having a Queens Corporal in my unit, I think basically it was someone who the CO promoted, who hadn't done the promotion courses, wasn't ever likely to do them, didn't want to do them, didn't want to be a NCO, they were career diggers. It was the COs way of recognising their service, I don't know what sort of hoops the CO had to jump through to get the promotion recognised by our SCMA (soldier career management agency).

[Pronto]

Thanks mate. Yeah, I'm Aussie so that is pretty helpful.

[digrar]

The QC we had was in my first year in the Army and I never saw another one, I think the days of the career digger were on the way out too, there were still a few around when I started off, but they were a dying breed.

[SuperBootie]

The QC we had was in my first year in the Army and I never saw another one, I think the days of the career digger were on the way out too, there were still a few around when I started off, but they were a dying breed.

I think that in any unit now a days, the idea that a Marine or any Soldier can simply kick back and choose to stay as they are is finished. There are defined training and promotion targets for each Marine. Moreover, each TC and OC has similar targets by which he himself is judged. I have reams of paperwork to fill in with regards the individual development program for each bod. We RM at least, have compulsory education targets in addition to military vocational training targets. No matter what level of training development a Marine whether Commissioned or Enlisted reaches, further progression and specialisations are indicated.

The RM also has introduced to many units an up or out mentality, much a kin to the US Navy. To stay in a sexy unit you must show the determination to improve on multiple levels.

It's not unheard of for RM SC1's to be learning 2 languages and progressing through a Oxford Brooke's/Open University Bachelors Degree whilst operating in Poppyland!

Multitasking is not just an American talent LOL

[Eztyga]

I recall having a Queens Corporal in my unit, I think basically it was someone who the CO promoted, who hadn't done the promotion courses, wasn't ever likely to do them, didn't want to do them, didn't want to be a NCO, they were career diggers. It was the COs way of recognising their service, I don't know what sort of hoops the CO had to jump through to get the promotion recognised by our SCMA (soldier career management agency).

Same same for the RAN, we used to have Queens Able Seaman, basically the same as above. If you were an AB after 18 years, then this title wa conferred upon you. I don't recall meeting any, but they did exist.

Regards;

Eztyga

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

A number of years ago there was a rare creature called a "Queens Corporal". I believe it was something to do with after 20 years as a soldier and not being promoted you got Queens Corporal. This is my basic understanding.

You can do 20 years in a commonwealth military without getting promoted?

[DeltaWhisky58]

Megaraptor;2757154']You can do 20 years in a commonwealth military without getting promoted?

Of course you can. You can have guys who are great soldiers/airmen/seamen but just not promotion material. They don't give out stripes for just turning up on parade, or medals for that matter.

Anything above Private or equivalent (Army); Able Bodied Seaman (RN);
Marine (RM) and Senior Aircraftman (RAF) and presumably equivalents in Aus/NZ/Canada have to be earned one way or another. There are certain ranks bestowed upon completion of specialist training, e.g. RAF NCO Aircrew are automatically Sergeants, presumably there are equivalents in the Commonwealth forces, but these are considered to have been earned by virtue of the nature/length of the training.

Maybe there are some special exception which other may be able to detail, but generally this is the case.

[el borracho]

Of course you can. You can have guys who are great soldiers/airmen/seamen but just not promotion material. They don't give out stripes for just turning up on parade, or medals for that matter.

Anything above Private or equivalent (Army); Able Bodied Seaman (RN);
Marine (RM) and Senior Aircraftman (RAF) and presumably equivalents in Aus/NZ/Canada have to be earned one way or another. There are certain ranks bestowed upon completion of specialist training, e.g. RAF NCO Aircrew are automatically Sergeants, presumably there are equivalents in the Commonwealth forces, but these are considered to have been earned by virtue of the nature/length of the training.

Maybe there are some special exception which other may be able to detail, but generally this is the case.

Honestly though, can a 38-year old support themselves, and possibly a family on Private's pay? Or would these "Queen's Corporals" types most likely be single, and hardcore dedicated to their profession? If that's the case, how did they not earn a promotion for their efforts over the course of a career?

I'm used to the US system where they hand out rank frivolously. Everything is gearned towards career progression. I made E-5 (SSgt in the USAF) after four years. It definitely doesn't carry the prestige that I thought a sergeant would.

[DeltaWhisky58]

In theory you could get a 38 year old private soldier, and I'm sure some of our members have come across them although in this day and age I'd say it's less likely that a guy with no promotion prospects would be kept on that long, but i'm sure it does happen even now. You just have to accept that our system works differently and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In reality, it's more likely to get corporals of that age - I was speaking to two Jock corporals the other day, neither of whom could have been much under forty.

Argyll/Royal may have more to input on this one from a British point of view.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Of course you can. You can have guys who are great soldiers/airmen/seamen but just not promotion material. They don't give out stripes for just turning up on parade, or medals for that matter.

Anything above Private or equivalent (Army); Able Bodied Seaman (RN);
Marine (RM) and Senior Aircraftman (RAF) and presumably equivalents in Aus/NZ/Canada have to be earned one way or another. There are certain ranks bestowed upon completion of specialist training, e.g. RAF NCO Aircrew are automatically Sergeants, presumably there are equivalents in the Commonwealth forces, but these are considered to have been earned by virtue of the nature/length of the training.

Maybe there are some special exception which other may be able to detail, but generally this is the case.

Interesting. I'm sure you've heard the saying "Up or Out" with regards to the US military.


I'm used to the US system where they hand out rank frivolously. Everything is gearned towards career progression. I made E-5 (SSgt in the USAF) after four years. It definitely doesn't carry the prestige that I thought a sergeant would.

I guess the system is designed to clean out any dead weight/oxygen wastage. If you're not good enough to make the next level, step aside because someone else can take your place.

[Argyll]

It takes on average in an Infantry unit 3-5 years to make L/Cpl, 6-9 Cpl, and 9 and above for Sgt, Quarties and above 12 years...

As you can guess, promotion is slow, even slower if you're in a Support Company Platoon, such as Recce, Anti tank and Mortars.

[Kilkenny]

and for some, not at all.
CFL's are common here. Corporals for life.

[Hutz]

In theory you could get a 38 year old private soldier, and I'm sure some of our members have come across them although in this day and age I'd say it's less likely that a guy with no promotion prospects would be kept on that long, but i'm sure it does happen even now. You just have to accept that our system works differently and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In reality, it's more likely to get corporals of that age - I was speaking to two Jock corporals the other day, neither of whom could have been much under forty.

Argyll/Royal may have more to input on this one from a British point of view.

In Canada, as long as you're qualified and fit for your job you automatically get promoted after the prescribed amount of time to Corporal for NCMs and Captain for Officers.

[Scrim]

I always thought it was an intriguing concept, totally foreign to (modern) US forces.
Not every one is a leader, or wants to be in a leadership position. I for one, like the sound of CFL.

[digrar]

I think traditionally we've paid our private soldiers better than the US. A digger who was in his late thirties with a wife who worked, would be doing alright during my time in. They wouldn't rolling in cash, but their kids wouldn't be in rags either.

[RAFREGT.]

In the RAF, pay goes up every year as you go up a level, so you could have an SAC (private equivilant) at level 8 earning more than a corporal on level 1.
Its worked out, when promoted you don't drop wages and the highest level (off the top of my head) is level 8 for each rank.
We have quite a few guys in RAF Regiment who are Corporals for life, don't wanna muve up the chain and gradually become more admin and desk based. They'd rather be on the ground with their sections.Corporal is, after all, THE BEST RANK there is.....

[Pronto]

Well I work with a great older guy. He is still a digger. He got promoted to LCPL at one stage, but didn't want to do the promotion course required to carry on higher. After that, he had to give the rank back.
He is 44 yrs old, married, kids, and very happy. He enjoys the work, the job and the position he has.
This is one of the reasons I asked about Queens Corporals.

[Pete031]

In Canada, if you wish not to take the leadership course, then you will stay Cpl for your career. In non combat arms trades I heard they will promote you to the rank of Master Corporal before they qualify you. For everyone else you need the course first.

[Hutz]

In non combat arms trades I heard they will promote you to the rank of Master Corporal before they qualify you. For everyone else you need the course first.

It's called acting-lacking, but you still need to get your PLQ (JLC or whatever it's called this year) within a certain amount of time.