Rise and fall of the Vandals

[Gentle Norsemen]

One of the most interesting Germanic tribes that fought against the Romans.Today when we say words like vandal and vandilised it is because of them.They struck fear into the heart of the mighty Roman Empire.The verb vandalize is first recorded in 1800. The term "vandalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalism)" has come to mean senseless destruction as a result of the Vandals' sack of Rome under King Geiseric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiseric) in 455.

What fascinated me is that they had a very large navy and did not also include just Germanic but Iranian nomadic tribes from the east fleeing the Hunnic invasion.

The beginning of the history of the Vandals.The Vandals cross the Rhine river into Gaul and go into Hispania modern day Portugal and Spain.From Hispania they begin constructing marvelous ships and build one of the greatest Germanic navies in the Mediterranean sea.Oh just watch it!

http://youtube.com/v/tkDtC8Pgp90

Vandals enter North Africa and seize Roman territory.
http://youtube.com/v/rLyWNo42NE8

[Eoin666]

Just reading Barbarians by Terry Jones (monty python fame, on the BBC recently, much better than the History Channel Barbarians series) details the alternative to Roman history setting the record straight so to speak, details mainly the celts, goths, vandals, huns and sassanians and how Rome's views still dominate European history even today. We were always taught that Rome was sacked by the pagan barbarians, however the Vandals were an Arian Christian army who entered the city and destroyed...nothing. I for instance never realised the celts had a more sophisticated calendar, iron working, agriculture and system of coinage (issue of gold coins), a fairer legal system and treatment of women than that of Rome....but as ever Rome had a more professional army, and that was all that counted!

"Synopsis
We think we know all about the Romans, don't we? They gave us sophisticated road systems, chariots and the modern-day calendar, not to mention civilized society. And of course, they had to contend with barbarian hordes who continually threatened the peace, safety and prosperity of their Empire. But is this really true? Accompanying a major new BBC2 series, "Terry Jones' Barbarians" takes a completely fresh approach to Roman history. Not only does it offer us the chance to see the Romans from a non-Roman perspective, it also reveals that most of those written off by the Romans as uncivilized, savage and barbaric were in fact organized, motivated and intelligent groups of people, with no intentions of overthrowing Rome and plundering its Empire. This original and fascinating study does away with the propaganda and opens our eyes to who really established the civilized world. Delving deep into history, Terry Jones and Alan Ereira uncover the impressive cultural and technological achievements of the Celts, Goths, Persians and Vandals. If you thought that highly developed religious philosophy and legal systems based on respect were Roman inventions, then think again. Far from civilizing the societies they conquered, the Romans often destroyed much of what they found. In this absorbing book, Terry and Alan travel through 700 years of history on three continents, bringing wit, irreverence, passion and the very latest scholarship to transform our view of the legacy of the Roman Empire and the creation of the modern world. 'Jones laces the latest academic research with his own increasingly avuncular humour. Who says history can't be fun? In the hands of Professor Jones, how could it be anything else?'"

[Gentle Norsemen]

The Romans branded most Germanic tribes as barbarians.But that could go for every one in that age who had a enemy.We probably called the Romans barbarians.I have only seen a few of the BBC episodes.Can you send them to me via Private message.

The Vandals are a Arian Army.Here the Arians engage the Roman Army sent to destroy them in North Africa.The tide quickly turns.
http://youtube.com/v/Ib01U8dmgO4

[Gentle Norsemen]

I have been only talking about the Germanic groups of the Vandals.But the other main group are Iranian nomadic groups that also crossed the Rhine.By the time the Germanic and Iranian nomadic groups reached Hispania and crossed to North Africa in the largest naval migration in history.The naval crossing also included Spaniards and Portuguese.

The Iranian nomads are called Alans or Alani.They saved the Germanic tribes against a battle with the Franks.The Iranian nomads showed up with large hunting dogs and unseen armour.The Franks quickly defeated.

More on this battle.



Liber historiae Francorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_historiae_Francorum) ("The book of the history of the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks)") that the Alan king Respendial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respendial) saved the day for the Vandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals) in an armed encounter with the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks) at the crossing of the Rhine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine) on December 31 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_31), 406 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/406)). According to Gregory, another group of Alans, led by Goar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goar), crossed the Rhine at the same time, but immediately joined the Romans and settled in Gaul.


Around 370, the Alans were overwhelmed by the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns). They were divided into several groups, some of whom fled westward. A portion of these western Alans joined the Germanic tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_tribes) of Vandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals) and Sueves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sueves) in their invasion of Roman Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul).

This map shows the migration of the Alans a nomadic group from Iran.They fled due to the Hunnic invaders.As did Eastern Germanic tribes.This formed the core of the Vandals.History would be changed forever.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg

Quick history of the mark left behind by this tribe in Europe.

In Gaul, the Alans originally led by Goar were settled by Aetius in several areas, notably around Orléans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orl%C3%A9ans) and Valentia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence%2C_Dr%C3%B4me).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#_note-14) Under Goar, they allied with the Burgundians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians) led by Gundaharius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundaharius), with whom they installed the usurping Emperor Jovinus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovinus). Under Goar's successor Sangiban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangiban), the Alans of Orléans played a critical role in repelling the invasion of Attila the Hun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_the_Hun) at the Battle of Chalons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chalons). After the fifth century, however, the Alans of Gaul were subsumed in the territorial struggles between the Franks and the Visigoths, and ceased to have an independent existence. Flavius Aëtius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_A%C3%ABtius) settled large numbers of Alans in and around Armorica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica) in order to quell unrest. The Breton language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language) name Alan (rather than the French Alain) and several towns with names related to 'Alan', such as Allainville and Alainville-en Beauce (Loiret), Allaines and Allainville (Eure-et-Loir), and Les Allains (Eure) are taken as evidence that a contingent settled in Armorica (Brittany), which retained a reputation for outstanding horsemanship with Gregory of Tours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours) and into the Middle Ages, preferring to remain mounted to fight in contrast with all their neighbors, who dismounted in battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

[Gentle Norsemen]

The Vandals board ships and head to the Italian main land.Rome is open to invasion.The Pope of Rome strikes a deal with the Vandal King.To show mercy.The king accepts the Popes offer.The Vandals are Arian but still Christian.Rome is sacked in 455.

http://youtube.com/v/ARYHK_EKz54

The fall of the Vandals.
http://youtube.com/v/OEbk98ybKHg

[Eoin666]

Don't have those Terry Jones episodes, wish I had recorded them, it's out on dvd so will keep my eyes open see if I can grab a copy.

Talking of the Alans, another interesting read is Arthur: the dragon king by Howard Reid, he traces a lot of the legends surrounding King Arthur myths, the involvement of sarmatian and Alanic influences (sword in the stone, similar to the steppe ritual of the sword in the earth, the draco standard, the 8000 sarmatian heavy cavalry that Marcus Aurelius transferred to Northern England etc...) plus as you mention the record of the Alans in Brittany and Normandy, there's even a link with the Normans (Vikings themselves) and their adoption of heavy cavalry lancers and later chivalric tradition

I remember "aquiring" a book on Norse mythology from the school library when I was a nipper, loved that book....Loki was always my favourite, using his head to outwit Thor's power. Favourite story was about Thor competing in some trials against a female giant I think, yet he could never beat her in a race, eating and drinking, only to later understand he was drinkning the ocean, racing against time, and eating against fire. Pity we got taught about Greek mythology, none about our own ancient British or Saxon legends....

[Gentle Norsemen]

Don't have those Terry Jones episodes, wish I had recorded them, it's out on dvd so will keep my eyes open see if I can grab a copy.

Talking of the Alans, another interesting read is Arthur: the dragon king by Howard Reid, he traces a lot of the legends surrounding King Arthur myths, the involvement of sarmatian and Alanic influences (sword in the stone, similar to the steppe ritual of the sword in the earth, the draco standard, the 8000 sarmatian heavy cavalry that Marcus Aurelius transferred to Northern England etc...) plus as you mention the record of the Alans in Brittany and Normandy, there's even a link with the Normans (Vikings themselves) and their adoption of heavy cavalry lancers and later chivalric tradition

I remember "aquiring" a book on Norse mythology from the school library when I was a nipper, loved that book....Loki was always my favourite, using his head to outwit Thor's power. Favourite story was about Thor competing in some trials against a female giant I think, yet he could never beat her in a race, eating and drinking, only to later understand he was drinkning the ocean, racing against time, and eating against fire. Pity we got taught about Greek mythology, none about our own ancient British or Saxon legends....

I was hoping you would have it.It will get on the internet some way or another.If you get a copy post it up.

I have been reading lately on the Iranic tribes in Europe.Cataphracts itself came from Iran.Many people think King Arthur was a Alani.Some modern day Britons will be surprised they have Iranian blood or for that matter people across Europe.

An excellent book has recently been published about a group of Iranian tribes who lived in Europe between 600 BC - 450 AD Dr. Kaveh Farrokh.It is important to note that the Saramatians also bought many facets of the culture and architecture of Persia into Europe. One example is the Dutch windmill which actually originated in Khorassan in the Sassanian era. The Saramatians also combined Persian and Greek architecture and helped form the basis of Gothic, Merovingian and Rennaissance architecture. Despite the scope of Iranian influence on European culture, their legacy is passed over in silence. Books such as these will help us remember the exploits of these forgotten Iranians.Many of whom still hold Iranian names to this day in Europe.I have a host of information regarding them.

I have been reading a few books on the Pagan norse.I have a great DVD on the Saxons.A Northern Germanic tribe when the Romans recruited them and how they quickly gained the British isles and up to modern day during the British Empire.The Saxon tribe is remarkable.We should have been thought about this.But the Greek view was we are all barbarians and they are gods gift to the earth.Any one East of Constatinople was a Barbarian.Any one West of Athens was a Barbarian.It would be good if in Britain they thought Anglo-Saxon history.In Scandanavia we should learn more about the Pagan nrose.I can send some files that I scanned from a book I have that is not even out yet :)

[LordTyphus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg

The Alans in Northern Gaul? That's not right. Northern Gaul was defended by the salian Franks and wasn't overran by the barbarians. Many people believed the Franks overran Northern Gaul during the great barbarian invasion of the Roman Empire. That't not true. The Franks didn't take part in the invasion. The Franks (romanized and in some place of N.Gaul in majority and mixed with the gauls) were already in Gaul and shielded the area from the barbarians. Syagrius, the last roman Consul in Gaul, was simply disposed by the Franks, who by that time had settled in their hundreds of thousand in Northern Gaul. Fact, all agricultural in Northern Gaul had Frankish names. Indicating the peasants there were in fact Frankish!

And most Alans (that were very few to start with) were chased from Gaul by the Franks. Same applies to the Goths, vandals and co. The only real germanic tribes that managed to settle in Gaul were the Burgundians, but they were quickly assimilated into the local population.

[Eoin666]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg

The Alans in Northern Gaul? That's not right. Northern Gaul was defended by the salian Franks and wasn't overran by the barbarians. Many people believed the Franks overran Northern Gaul during the great barbarian invasion of the Roman Empire. That't not true. The Franks didn't take part in the invasion. The Franks (romanized and in some place of N.Gaul in majority and mixed with the gauls) were already in Gaul and shielded the area from the barbarians. Syagrius, the last roman Consul in Gaul, was simply disposed by the Franks, who by that time had settled in their hundreds of thousand in Northern Gaul. Fact, all agricultural in Northern Gaul had Frankish names. Indicating the peasants there were in fact Frankish!

And most Alans (that were very few to start with) were chased from Gaul by the Franks. Same applies to the Goths, vandals and co. The only real germanic tribes that managed to settle in Gaul were the Burgundians, but they were quickly assimilated into the local population.


With the arrival of the Huns north of the black sea the Alans split, some joined the Hunnic confederacy, some retreated over the caucasus into what is now Ossetia and some fled westard along with the Vandals eventually settling temporarily in northern Gaul. Incidentally in 407 this may have been the reason the legions were withdrawn from Brittania, who cammanded by the newly proclaimed emperor Constantine III, fought a number of engagements against the invaders driving them south. Constantine then made treaties with the neighbouring germanic tribes (Franks, Burgundians and Alamanni) to secure northern Gaul enabling him to push on to Rome to further his claim to the purple robe (held by Stilicho). It's also been thought that Constantine crossed from Britain in 407 (where a rebellion had broken out in 406 proclaiming Constantine) because the Alans/Vandals were in Gaul and this was merely to gain support from Gaul for his claim on Rome, as the Italocentric Stilicho had failed to move at this time. So the Alans/Vandals didn't overrun Gaul but did settle and pass through on their way to Spain and N. Africa. Maybe you're thinking of a later timescale when the Franks were ruling northern gaul?

[Eoin666]

I was hoping you would have it.It will get on the internet some way or another.If you get a copy post it up.

I have been reading lately on the Iranic tribes in Europe.Cataphracts itself came from Iran.Many people think King Arthur was a Alani.Some modern day Britons will be surprised they have Iranian blood or for that matter people across Europe.

An excellent book has recently been published about a group of Iranian tribes who lived in Europe between 600 BC - 450 AD Dr. Kaveh Farrokh.It is important to note that the Saramatians also bought many facets of the culture and architecture of Persia into Europe. One example is the Dutch windmill which actually originated in Khorassan in the Sassanian era. The Saramatians also combined Persian and Greek architecture and helped form the basis of Gothic, Merovingian and Rennaissance architecture. Despite the scope of Iranian influence on European culture, their legacy is passed over in silence. Books such as these will help us remember the exploits of these forgotten Iranians.Many of whom still hold Iranian names to this day in Europe.I have a host of information regarding them.

I have been reading a few books on the Pagan norse.I have a great DVD on the Saxons.A Northern Germanic tribe when the Romans recruited them and how they quickly gained the British isles and up to modern day during the British Empire.The Saxon tribe is remarkable.We should have been thought about this.But the Greek view was we are all barbarians and they are gods gift to the earth.Any one East of Constatinople was a Barbarian.Any one West of Athens was a Barbarian.It would be good if in Britain they thought Anglo-Saxon history.In Scandanavia we should learn more about the Pagan nrose.I can send some files that I scanned from a book I have that is not even out yet :)


There was a recent thread about the Alans in the Balkans and whether the Serbs and Croats originated from them, though I think that was mainly linguistic influences. Difficult to ascribe descent or migration after 2000 yrs just to to language or even artifacts. Some recent studies in the UK have disputed the number of anglo/saxons, jutes, fisians migrating into the country. They reckoned that via trade and contact people will copy the more wealthy or dominant culture which could explain language changes and north-western european artifacts in England....however, why a people speaking Brythonic for a 1000 yrs would within a few decades start switching to germanic simply to copy them I'm not too sure. But they did show genetic traces of Danes (Saxons are virtually identical) concentrated in the north and east of england, Norwegian in northern Scotland and eastern Ireland, and in the midlands (Mercia where I live) was nice mix of both Briton and Saxon/Dane. But that could be evidence of the Danelaw, when the Danish Vikings ruled the northern half of Britain and the Saxons the south.

Celtic and Dacian cultures were just about to flourish when they were all but obliterated by Rome...if only Hannibal had taken Rome after Cannae...who knows!

Interestingly the Greeks were masters of siege warfare and arillery the Romans simply copied the engines, but never improved them. They copied Sarmatian cavalry, Gallic helmet, celtiberian swords and shields, Cartheginian ships, perhaps that was their secret, their ability to learn and take what was effective for themselves.

Will keep my eye out for that book, not on Amazon yet just looked, I'm interested in all that nomadic/steppe warfare, Huns, Alans and Mongols.

The government in this country is ashamed of all forms of British/English history, any mention of empire or anglo-saxon and they start screaming racism

[Gentle Norsemen]

There was a recent thread about the Alans in the Balkans and whether the Serbs and Croats originated from them, though I think that was mainly linguistic influences. Difficult to ascribe descent or migration after 2000 yrs just to to language or even artifacts. Some recent studies in the UK have disputed the number of anglo/saxons, jutes, fisians migrating into the country. They reckoned that via trade and contact people will copy the more wealthy or dominant culture which could explain language changes and north-western european artifacts in England....however, why a people speaking Brythonic for a 1000 yrs would within a few decades start switching to germanic simply to copy them I'm not too sure. But they did show genetic traces of Danes (Saxons are virtually identical) concentrated in the north and east of england, Norwegian in northern Scotland and eastern Ireland, and in the midlands (Mercia where I live) was nice mix of both Briton and Saxon/Dane. But that could be evidence of the Danelaw, when the Danish Vikings ruled the northern half of Britain and the Saxons the south.

Celtic and Dacian cultures were just about to flourish when they were all but obliterated by Rome...if only Hannibal had taken Rome after Cannae...who knows!

Interestingly the Greeks were masters of siege warfare and arillery the Romans simply copied the engines, but never improved them. They copied Sarmatian cavalry, Gallic helmet, celtiberian swords and shields, Cartheginian ships, perhaps that was their secret, their ability to learn and take what was effective for themselves.

Will keep my eye out for that book, not on Amazon yet just looked, I'm interested in all that nomadic/steppe warfare, Huns, Alans and Mongols.

The government in this country is ashamed of all forms of British/English history, any mention of empire or anglo-saxon and they start screaming racism

The thread sounts neat.Recent studies has shown the some European countries the people originated in Iran.DNA studies in Iran have shown most of the population to be close genetical link to Danes and the English.

I have been reading on the Iranian steppe people in Europe.I can pm some of the pages I scanned.I also have a great book on the Mongols.They actually commited one of the largest genocides in history.It is mostly un-documented.But graves are being found.I will post a thread on this in a few days.

I hear a RAF unit will not be able to fly in the Olympics because they are to British.What is going on in your great Island.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/562/cavallisforzageneclustejo0.jpg

[Eoin666]

The thread sounts neat.Recent studies has shown the some European countries the people originated in Iran.DNA studies in Iran have shown most of the population to be close genetical link to Danes and the English.

I have been reading on the Iranian steppe people in Europe.I can pm some of the pages I scanned.I also have a great book on the Mongols.They actually commited one of the largest genocides in history.It is mostly un-documented.But graves are being found.I will post a thread on this in a few days.

I hear a RAF unit will not be able to fly in the Olympics because they are to British.What is going on in your great Island.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/562/cavallisforzageneclustejo0.jpg

very surprsing link between iranians and northern europeans, but then again thinking of what iranian originally meant as a huge racial grouping rather than a single country in the middle east (a bit like germanic, or turkic peoples), maybe not that surprising. Program on here recently about India, the first of which goes back to their roots involving migrations of Arians (Iranian peoples) into the sub-continent. Not sure where the Rajput warrior class came from, whether it was these nomad horsemen or the later White Huns, maybe some of the Indian people here know more?
Interestingly, some of the mummies found in the Takla Makan desert in inner mongolia in present day China were found with red hair and white skin with ornate tattoos, it was originally hushed up by the Chinese who (sorry but like to think they invented and discovered everything) couldn't accept the idea of white "europeans" in a civilised China over 2000 yrs ago. I think the conclusion was that they were a Scythian people but who had mixed with Celts judging by their woolen clothes, or maybe Celts who adopted steppe ways of living. The Celts (even though no such word existed until invented by a Welsh linguist in 1707) were also huge inter-related people streching from eastern europe to Ireland, from Spain to Germany, with colonies in central Turkey, thoght that some migrtaed eastward across the steppe sometime 2500 yrs ago. If you can either pm the scanned pages or post them up for us?

Mongol genocides?....which one....:)......Genghis Khan what to turn over then entire area north of the yellow river in china to pasture for his horses, killing 40 million people, but his advisors said, 40 million people will pay more in taxes than horses.
Talking of the mongols and steppes, there's a guy in Hungary that runs courses on horse archery, looks well cool!