Aniversary Of Soviet Russians and Nazi Germans joining efforts to destroy Poland [Archive]

Switek

09-17-2007, 11:01 AM

Ok what does it mean for today:

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti political commentator Maxim Krans) - When Russia was recognized as the de facto successor to the U.S.S.R. it inherited not only its property, nuclear arsenal and a huge foreign debt, but also the heavy, often unbearable, burden of historic responsibility for the policies and actions of former regimes.

A new feature film from the outstanding film director Andrzej Wajda, which will be released in the next few days, serves as a timely reminder of this. It is devoted to the Katyn tragedy -- a sensitive issue, which has marred Russian-Polish relations for years. Wajda, who lost his father in the Katyn forest, has said more than once that he does not wish his film to be political. But films have a habit of taking on a life of their own, regardless of their director's wishes, and once it is released it may well be seized on by others as a political weapon.

The facts of the matter seemed to have been finally established in 1990, when TASS issued its first statement on the Katyn tragedy. It admitted that the officers imprisoned by the Red Army during partition of Poland had been killed by the NKVD. Two years later, Boris Yeltsin handed Polish President Lech Walesa materials from a secret folder, which successive Communist Party general secretaries had kept under lock and key. This file included an excerpt from protocol #13 of the Central Committee Politburo session of March 5, 1940, which passed a death sentence on Polish officers, policemen, government officials, landlords, factory owners and other "counterrevolutionary elements" who were kept in forced labor camps (14,700) and prisons in western Ukraine and Byelorussia (11,000).

The same protocol ordered a review of cases, in absentia and without filing charges. As a result POWs from the Kozel camp were shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk, while those detained in Starobelsk and Ostashkov were taken to local execution sites. In a secret memo to Nikita Khrushchev in 1959, KGB chief Alexander Shelepin reported that about 22,000 Poles had been killed. More than 200,000 relatives of POWs, and almost as many Poles from the "Soviet-liberated" territories were deported to exile in Kazakhstan, Siberia and the North.

These are hard facts. After 50 years of secrecy and cover-up, the Soviet and Russian presidents admitted the Stalinist regime's responsibility for this heinous crime. Memorials in honor of Polish POWs rose at their burial sites. Repeating Willy Brandt's iconic act of contrition, Boris Yeltsin knelt before the monument to the Katyn officers at a military cemetery in Warsaw.

But the question of repentance has refused to be laid to rest. On the eve of Vladimir Putin's visit to Poland in 2002, President Aleksander Kwasniewski demanded official apologies from his Russian counterpart. The current Polish leader Lech Kaczynski still insists on them.

Although Putin has apologized for the past in Budapest and Prague, he is unlikely to do so in Poland. During that visit to Poland in 2002, he refused to draw comparisons between Nazi and Stalinist crimes, instead suggesting that it might be possible to extend the Russian law on the rehabilitation of victims of Stalinism to the Polish citizens involved. But when campaigners from Memorial, a Moscow based human rights group, appealed to a Moscow court for the relatives to be granted the status of victims of political repression, the answer was a categorical "no".

Moreover, in defiance of the previous Russian position, the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office halted the inquiry into the Katyn case, citing the absence of genocide and the death of the guilty officials. Most of the documents of the 14 year-long investigation were classified.

Prominent Polish publicist Jerzy Urban thinks this decision was a way of avoiding paying compensation to the victim's families. He wrote in the Nie weekly: "If Poland created a precedent with compensation, the whole family of Soviet peoples plus peace-loving nations of the socialist camp would rush to Russia with an outstretched hand." Maybe so - at any rate Prosecutor General Nikolai Turbin hinted at this possibility in his letter to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1991.

If Poles were insulted and indignant at the decision to close the investigation, in Russia it inspired Stalinists and nationalists. With renewed zeal they started reiterating the old Soviet version that the Nazis were responsible for the massacre, even though it had already been refuted by documented evidence. Governor Aman Tuleyev demanded that Warsaw "repent in turn" for the Red Army soldiers who perished in camps during the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1921.

But an unbiased look at the current flurry of recriminations reveals a more serious split than different versions of history. It is not rooted in the distant past, which abounds in mutual grievances, but in the early 1990s. Euphoric with sudden freedom, both nations were eager to rid themselves of the fetters of communism as soon as possible. But in the hurry to exorcise the recent past, they also lost the valuable political, economic, and, last but not the least, human contacts, which had existed between our nations since ancient times.

Over the following years we drifted so far apart that by the time we entered the new millennium our relations were zero, or even negative. Today, they resemble a fencing tournament, in which each side responds to (what is sees as) a sensitive attack with its own phrase d'arms: a meat ban rebounds in the form of a veto on a strategic EU agreement; a Baltic gas pipeline is followed by a welcome to U.S. missiles, and so on.

On both sides ambitions and injured pride are overriding pragmatism. This is not only sad - it is also bad. Compromise is essential for neighbors in Europe.

"Katyn. Prisoners of Undeclared War," is the title of a collection of documents compiled by Russian and Polish historians and archivists. In today's uneasy bilateral context, this title acquires a symbolic significance. Having introduced old historical arguments to current politics, the leaders of our countries have fallen prisoner to long-discredited myths and stereotypes, themselves the restless survivors of the era of this undeclared war.

Source: http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20070912/78405407.html

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 11:33 AM

I understand the sorrow and hard feelings.

But I don't understand why Russia should take the sole responsibility for Stalin's crimes.

Like was said in the article, it could lead to a ridiculous situation in which ex-Soviet countries could try and make their own claims against Russia.

Switek

09-17-2007, 11:44 AM

Flamming_Python, the key is that Russia is a legal ancestor of USSR.

And one remark: Poland has never been a part of Soviet Union.

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 11:52 AM

Flamming_Python, the key is that Russia is a legal ancestor of USSR.

And one remark: Poland has never been a part of Soviet Union.

Successor not Ancestor ;)

There is certainly a perception in Russia that the Soviet Union was just another version/incarnation of the nation of Russia. But I don't agree with it. It was more like a revolutionary movement controlled by internationalist communists that gradually became a nation state after WW2. Russian nationalism wasn't tolerated any more than any other nationalism by Stalin or Lenin until the most desperate days of WW2. After WW2, you could perhaps say that the USSR took on a slightly more Russian flavour in some respects, but the Katyn massacre happened in 1940.

I believe the ideal solution would be to perhaps form a comittee or organisation that represents each former-Soviet country and deals especially with these kinds of reparations or assuming responsibility.

Herrmannek

09-17-2007, 12:08 PM

Switek

09-17-2007, 12:24 PM

Herrmann, This thread will turn into a flame war sooner or later, so far we have been keeping a civil discussion.

Mamont

09-17-2007, 12:27 PM

Hmm, why France and England are left out? Also i think Smigly also must be the first figure to mention. Without his effort this aniversary might never had happened.

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 12:39 PM

Don't flame guys :) This is just reminder for those who wish to fully celebrate Soviet victory over Nazis and deny to remember same Soviets were actively supporting and legitimizing Nazi actions and had nothing formal against it until one bandit jumped to throat of another. Wrong doings that include persecutions, mass murders, work camps, property acquisition and mass deportations...

Battles if Soviets are same country as Russia are pretty pointless. Being right or wrong in this dispute depends only on the point of view.

I think it was a terrible massacre that should be acknowledged without doubt. But remember Hermannek it was a pretty bad time period for Europe in general, and like usual in war everyone is guilty. I didn't hear the Poles complaining any more about dividing Czechoslovakia with Germany in 1938 than I heard the complaints about the 15,000-20,000 Soviet POW's that died in Polish concentration camps during the 1920's.

The only thing I want to avoid is for ANY of these events to turn into another battering ram to use against Russia, Poland, Germany or anyone else, and unfortunately such things usually spin out into politics and are used as part of someone's agenda sooner or latter. Let's just respect the memory of those who died and vow that no-one will let it happen again.

a_very_ex_STAB

09-17-2007, 12:45 PM

Hmm, why France and England are left out?

Maybe because France and England did not try to invade Poland.

mas36

09-17-2007, 12:46 PM

Hmm, why France and England are left out? Also i think Smigly also must be the first figure to mention. Without his effort this aniversary might never had happened.

Because there was really nothing viable that either could have done. Despite this, Poles tend to blame all their ills on both UK and FR. This cannot ignore the hard fact that, before a single bullet was fired, the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement sealed Poland's fate. This took everyone by surprise, and even the silliest of all people could realize then that Poland was in a trap from which she could not escape, sad as it may be. Nevertheless, let's go and blame UK/FR, rather than the real culprits, Nazi Germany/USSR.

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 12:49 PM

Because there was really nothing viable that either could have done. Despite this, Poles tend to blame all their ills on both UK and FR. This cannot ignore the hard fact that, before a single bullet was fired, the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement sealed Poland's fate. This took everyone by surprise, and even the silliest of all people could realize then that Poland was in a trap from which she could not escape, sad as it may be. Nevertheless, let's go and blame UK/FR, rather than the real culprits, Nazi Germany/USSR.

Well the whole reason that France and Britain declared war on Germany is because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. If the USSR and Germany were still on track to kill each other as originally planned (preferably with a German victory), than more than likely the Western Allies would have let Hitler roll over Poland as free as he rolled over Czechoslovakia.

a_very_ex_STAB

09-17-2007, 12:52 PM

Well the whole reason that France and Britain declared war on Germany is because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. If the USSR and Germany were still on track to kill each other as originally planned (preferably with a German victory), than more than likely the Western Allies would have let Hitler roll over Poland as free as he rolled over Czechoslovakia.

If that was case then why did the British and French wait until Poland was attacked? The Molotov Ribbentrop pact was sometime before IIRC. Nobody in the British establishment wanted war - they weren't ready for it they had to declare war because of treaty obligations to Poland even though for simple geographical reasons there was really nothing direct they could do to help the Poles.

mas36

09-17-2007, 12:54 PM

Well the whole reason that France and Britain declared war on Germany is because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. If the USSR and Germany were still on track to kill each other as originally planned (preferably with a German victory), than more than likely the Western Allies would have let Hitler roll over Poland as free as he rolled over Czechoslovakia.

You think? UK and FR declared war on Germany because they invaded Poland, not because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement. WW 2 could have ended in 1939, if FR and the UK had not honored their agreement with Poland to declare war on Germany in the eventuality that Poland be invaded.

Oh, and about Czechoslovakia, I believe Poland may have benefitted from the Munich agreement of 1938 as well, taking eastern Silesia, or about 800 sq. km of land and over 250,000 of it's inhabitants.

vanquisher

09-17-2007, 01:22 PM

You think? UK and FR declared war on Germany because they invaded Poland, not because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement. WW 2 could have ended in 1939, if FR and the UK had not honored their agreement with Poland to declare war on Germany in the eventuality that Poland be invaded.

Oh, and about Czechoslovakia, I believe Poland may have benefitted from the Munich agreement of 1938 as well, taking eastern Silesia, or about 800 sq. km of land and over 250,000 of it's inhabitants.

War could end in 1939 if UK and FR had honored the agreement and made effort to attack Germany. Maby it was politically impossible and against French military plans, but still way more probable than end of war in case of breaking the agreement.

Generally everybody in Poland agrees that taking part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 was a stupid and shamefull action (although insignificant in comparison with other events in 1938). If there wasn't any official apologies, i can post mine now :)

Note that we were prohibited to mention about 1939 sept 17 Soviet attack before 1989. Thats why Poles focus so much on this anniversary.

a_very_ex_STAB

09-17-2007, 01:52 PM

War could end in 1939 if UK and FR had honored the agreement and made effort to attack Germany.

France might have had the capability - it had the largest army in Europe at the time but there is no way the UK could have done that in Sept 1939

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 01:58 PM

War could have ended if Soviet Union was allowed to march it's troops through Poland and into Czechoslovakia in order to stop Hitler's forces entering it. Of course the Poles were rightly afraid that the Red Army could stop by Warsaw and shuffle around the political cabinet a little, and in any case Poland had at least a little to gain from Czechoslovakia's demise.

We could go on and on about how war could have been avoided, but the fact is that leading up to WW2 there were 3 major sides all opposed to each other, and all trying to manuever themselves into the best position to play off everyone else against each other, trampling on smaller, less important countries on the way.

As to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Admitedly it's only speculation on my part, but that speculation comes from a conversation I had with a friend a few months ago. Namely, the West wanted Hitler to act as a bulwark against Stalin's USSR (hence all the appeasement of Chamberlain's years), so where does Poland fit into to this plan? They thought they could use Hitler, but he proved to have too much of his own agenda to carry through, and became far too belligerant & powerful.

I would also question, why if both Germany and the USSR declared war on Poland, did the West only declare war on Germany? Admitedly the USSR only invaded Poland when the government had already collapsed and German victory was certain, but that was the plan from the beggining. The anwser of course that the West was doing the smart, pragmatic thing. It realised that if it declared war on both, it would only push Germany and the USSR into an unholy alliance, so it decided to try and snap the co-operation before it started. Germany and the USSR were of course natural enemies, but WW2 as I said, was about 3 players in a warzone only big enough for 2. Whoever got ganged up on would loose, leaving the victors to pursue a Cold War against each other. As it turned out the West played its cards well and Hitler faltered, leaving the West and USSR to smash him into submission.

mas36

09-17-2007, 02:08 PM

France might have had the capability - it had the largest army in Europe at the time but there is no way the UK could have done that in Sept 1939

There is no way France could have done so either, at least not without violating international law. Everyone knows that the best way to attack Germany is through Belgium, and vice versa. Belgium had declared herself neutral. For France to invade Germany via Belgium would have been a major violation and possibly provide Germany with a propaganda coup of immense proportions.

So the only way left, as the French generals saw it, was through the Saar valley. This little offensive amounted to nothing simply because in the valley there is nothing to hold, or from which to launch an attack. Mind you the German Siegfried line was within range of tossing artillery upon the French at that point too. The best decision was to stop the silly offensive because it would ultimately lead to nowhere and it was also againt the wider military doctrine of defensive strategy on the part of the French military.

Noteworthy, that in 1936, when Hitler marched his armies into the Rhineland, France DID want to expel them militarily, but wanted reassurances from her major allies (US/UK) that they would back France in this operation. Both the US/UK said NO, citing that France would be launching a pre-emptive strike which could lead to a wider war. (now doesn't THAT sound familiar?) If the French had been the ones to instigate a war, they would have been politically, diplomatically, militarily and even possibly economically isolated.

France then wanted to impose economic sanctions, but the US/UK also shot down this idea. Besides, didn't an aide to N. Chamberlaine (or perhaps Chamberlaine himself) say that afterall, the Germans were only reclaiming what was already theirs in the first place?

The biggest fault in the UK/FR was that they both severely overestimated Germany's forces in the 2-3 years before the war. Besides that, there was really nothing either could have done realistically to help Poland.

mas36

09-17-2007, 02:11 PM

As to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Admitedly it's only speculation on my part, but that speculation comes from a conversation I had with a friend a few months ago. Namely, the West wanted Hitler to act as a bulwark against Stalin's USSR, so where does Poland fit into to this plan? They thought they could use Hitler, but he proved to have too much of his own agenda to carry through, and became far too belligerant & powerful.

Though it is purely speculation, it's interesting enough to ponder it. There was indeed a plan in the works to send British and French troops to Finland to help them fight the Soviets. When WW 2 started however, these troops were instead sent to Norway.

Mishka Zubov

09-17-2007, 02:44 PM

I think it was a terrible massacre that should be acknowledged without doubt. But remember Hermannek it was a pretty bad time period for Europe in general, and like usual in war everyone is guilty. I didn't hear the Poles complaining any more about dividing Czechoslovakia with Germany in 1938 than I heard the complaints about the 15,000-20,000 Soviet POW's that died in Polish concentration camps during the 1920's.

The only thing I want to avoid is for ANY of these events to turn into another battering ram to use against Russia, Poland, Germany or anyone else, and unfortunately such things usually spin out into politics and are used as part of someone's agenda sooner or latter. Let's just respect the memory of those who died and vow that no-one will let it happen again.

That's right - relativism is a good tool, which leads to this:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/875/stalinbigru4.jpg
"Not a step back"and then to re-writing the history.

Some excerpts from a Polityka article:

(...)
Russians hear for some time that all that unmeasurable depth of atrocities was an inevitable cost of great modernization undertaken by Stalin. Russia had to become a world power and therefore Stalin deserves to be called one of the greatest statesmen. Before him was Peter the 1st, after him is only Putin - because thanks to him, after the Great Sorrow of the last decade of 20 century, Russia is becoming great again.

For today's Kreml any ideological disputes are completely irrelevant. In the Putin's concept of a state the czarist Russia can coexist with communist Russia; one can relate to Orthodox Church and at the same time praise the KGB, which fought with Church and murdered Orthodox clergy. The only binder is in fact an imperialistic idea - a slogan of strong Russia and recreation of its position as the world's superpower.

This ideology has been presented, in a condensed form, in recently published methodology handbooks for high-school teachers - "The newest history of Russia 1945-2006" and "The world in 21th century." According to the authors, Russians have no reason to abash the past. To hell with self-flogging. The hell with the hostile West which has tried to impose on Russians its own vision of history, demanding from them accounting for their past, presented as a continuum of murders, to which they are guilty of. Admit-tingly - and those are the words of Putin himself - there have been many grim pages in Russian history, but there have been at least as many such pages in other countries. And certainly the Russian ones have been not as sinister as Nazism, for example.
(...)
source: Polityka, http://www.polityka.pl/polityka/index.jsp?place=Lead33&news_cat_id=934&news_id=228548&layout=18&forum_id=11544&fpage=Threads&page=text

And so on and so on. Good article, but too long to translate it in full.

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 03:15 PM

That's right - relativism is a good tool, which leads to this:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/875/stalinbigru4.jpg
and then to re-writing the history.

Some excerpts from a Polityka article:
source: Polityka, http://www.polityka.pl/polityka/index.jsp?place=Lead33&news_cat_id=934&news_id=228548&layout=18&forum_id=11544&fpage=Threads&page=text

And so on and so on. Good article, but too long to translate it in full.

It's not about "abashing" (is that even a word?) the past. Russia has done its share of terrible deeds, which I am perfectly fine to acknolwledge. The Katyn massacre was made by the Soviet Union, but nontheless Russians made up a great deal of the Soviet leadership, a good chunk of the NKVD soldiers who led the Poles to their death. This shouldn't be forgotten. However, my point is that so has every other country done such massacres and atrocities. No exceptions. Israel/Hamas, Russia/Poland, Iran/Iraq, they are all as guilty and rotten as each other.

The Armenians vs. Turks/Azeri's are a particular good example. Remind me, who is the guilty party there? The one that started butchering civilians left right and center while the heroic forces of the good guys saved everyone? I can't see anyone like that. Hence my relativst attitude, because to an outside observer the Russia vs. Poland thing is the same as the Armenian vs. Turks/Azeris.

All I see is hypocrites calling on one people to own up to this, or to that, when they themselves have done no better in the past. This 'blame game' has repeated itself over the course of human history, and is only ever used as a tool by the rich & powerful who have an agenda, and wish to get the ignorant, unwashed public on its side. Any intelligent person can see that this is bull****, that this is manipulation. Bad relations do not come from historical events. Bad relations come from other things (clashing economical, political, etc... interests) and historical relations are brought in to keep them bad and prevent the public from realising just how much they are being bull****ed for an agenda that is only in the interests of their elite.

Like I said, let's respect the memory of those who died. But to try and use a past event against a country that has since moved on, go to hell, and that applies to Russia, to Poland, to Germany, to Britain, to anyone who is supposed to be feeling a guilt-trip because of bad political relations with some country that leads onto accusations about a historical upset that everyone has long since moved on from.

I wonder who Russians are supposed to blame for the millions of deaths that we suffered under Stalin. Are we supposed to blame ourselves? Did we elect him?

Mamont

09-17-2007, 03:33 PM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2415930&postcount=47

Mishka Zubov

09-17-2007, 05:06 PM

It's not about "abashing" (is that even a word?) the past. Russia has done its share of terrible deeds, which I am perfectly fine to acknolwledge. The Katyn massacre was made by the Soviet Union, but nontheless Russians made up a great deal of the Soviet leadership, a good chunk of the NKVD soldiers who led the Poles to their death. This shouldn't be forgotten. However, my point is that so has every other country done such massacres and atrocities. No exceptions. Israel/Hamas, Russia/Poland, Iran/Iraq, they are all as guilty and rotten as each other.

The Armenians vs. Turks/Azeri's are a particular good example. Remind me, who is the guilty party there? The one that started butchering civilians left right and center while the heroic forces of the good guys saved everyone? I can't see anyone like that. Hence my relativst attitude, because to an outside observer the Russia vs. Poland thing is the same as the Armenian vs. Turks/Azeris.

All I see is hypocrites calling on one people to own up to this, or to that, when they themselves have done no better in the past. This 'blame game' has repeated itself over the course of human history, and is only ever used as a tool by the rich & powerful who have an agenda, and wish to get the ignorant, unwashed public on its side. Any intelligent person can see that this is bull****, that this is manipulation. Bad relations do not come from historical events. Bad relations come from other things (clashing economical, political, etc... interests) and historical relations are brought in to keep them bad and prevent the public from realising just how much they are being bull****ed for an agenda that is only in the interests of their elite.

Like I said, let's respect the memory of those who died. But to try and use a past event against a country that has since moved on, go to hell, and that applies to Russia, to Poland, to Germany, to Britain, to anyone who is supposed to be feeling a guilt-trip because of bad political relations with some country that leads onto accusations about a historical upset that everyone has long since moved on from.

I wonder who Russians are supposed to blame for the millions of deaths that we suffered under Stalin. Are we supposed to blame ourselves? Did we elect him?

abashing
To make ashamed or uneasy; disconcert. See Synonyms at embarrass.

source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abashingI was not particularly pointing finger at you - I know you to be a reasonable person. I was talking about a state sponsored tendency to use relativism as a tool to deny the past and to create new mythology. And there are many methods for doing this - I quoted one of them before.

As you said it yourself - admitting wrongdoing is the first step to establishing reasonable relations. As someone already said it here: most people in Poland are not particularly proud of squaring the past Olza problems with Czechoslovakia in 1938. That was not fair to take advantage of the bad moment for the Czechs - to say the least. Some would still argue - citing previous Czech atrocities, etc. But there is not a state sponsored program that attempts to whitewash that event.

By the way - for your information Czech Republic is voluntarily giving back some number of hectares that she still owes Poland due to some irregularities in the process of defining borders after WW2. Not that I care a bit.

Comparing deaths of thousands of Soviet POWs in 20s - who died of typhoid and starvation, as happened to many Poles at those times, with the deaths of thousands of Polish POWs - who have been killed in Katyn and elsewhere by Stalin's design does not fly with me. Surely, the former should be properly investigated and accounted for, but those two events are not in the same class.

Propaganda manipulation is another matter:

I've been asking Russians for years what do they think about Katyn. Random travel companions, acquaintances. Those who do not know that I am a Pole, surprised by a banality of the question, answer the same: "Everyone knows that it was a terrible war crime. Typical for Germans. Nazis did the same with thousands of Belorussian villages."

They say so, because they don't hear the word "Katyn" but "Khatyn". This was a name of a Belorussian village, destroyed by a punitive expedition on March 22, 1943. A battalion of former Soviet soldiers, taken prisoner by Germans and then allowed to change sides, commanded by Grigorij Vasiura, a former lieutenant of Red Army, torched alive 149 inhabitants.

(...)

All textbooks speak about Khatyn. The name is often mentioned in newspapers, and TV programs devoted to WW2.

This is an interesting and successful propaganda procedure. Khatyn, although morally ambiguous, has been chosen as a symbol, because it is an excellent jammer. A graduate of Soviet or Russian school, a reader of newspapers, a TV viewer has been so trained that hearing the word "Katyn" he will automatically understand "Khatyn". (...)

But if he knows that his interlocutor is a Pole his reaction is different, because he knows that the "Lakh" must touch the Katyn subject sooner or later.
source: http://www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,75248,4493775.html
translated by MZ

But the conclusion of your post:
I wonder who Russians are supposed to blame for the millions of deaths that we suffered under Stalin. Are we supposed to blame ourselves? Did we elect him?is a real problem. A difficult one.

No, you - and millions of modern Russians - did not elect him. And you could find plenty of reasons or people in the past to blame for Stalin's success as a dictator. And I - together with millions of Poles and the rest of the world - feel sorry for your losses. Really!

But do you understand why so many Russians suffer a communal amnesia? Why so many Russians try to whitewash his crimes and build new monuments to him, like these bottles of vodka? One possibility is a fear to face the past, to account for the past.

There are many causes of such fear. Not so long ago, on the occasion of presentation of Polish edition of his novel "Menacing Russia", I asked about it Yuriy Afanasev, a historian and one of the former leaders of old "perestroyka" opposition, who was one of the first to begin disclosing the truth about the Soviet past.

He was also the first to have courage to publicly say in the interview with "Polityka", on Spring 1987, that "the truths about Katyn must be disclosed to the very end. Notwithstanding how tragic the answer would be."

He answered my question about accountability with all brutality: "This is because of unimaginable scale of the crimes. Because if tens of millions of people had been murdered than millions of other people had to participate in it. The executioner was becoming a victim and the victim - an executioner..."
source: Polityka, http://www.polityka.pl/polityka/index.jsp?place=Lead33&news_cat_id=934&news_id=228548&layout=18&forum_id=11544&fpage=Threads&page=text

Flamming_Python

09-17-2007, 06:38 PM

I was not particularly pointing finger at you - I know you to be a reasonable person. I was talking about a state sponsored tendency to use relativism as a tool to deny the past and to create new mythology. And there are many methods for doing this - I quoted one of them before.

As you said it yourself - admitting wrongdoing is the first step to establishing reasonable relations. As someone already said it here: most people in Poland are not particularly proud of squaring the past Olza problems with Czechoslovakia in 1938. That was not fair to take advantage of the bad moment for the Czechs - to say the least. Some would still argue - citing previous Czech atrocities, etc. But there is not a state sponsored program that attempts to whitewash that event.

By the way - for your information Czech Republic is voluntarily giving back some number of hectares that she still owes Poland due to some irregularities in the process of defining borders after WW2. Not that I care a bit.

Comparing deaths of thousands of Soviet POWs in 20s - who died of typhoid and starvation, as happened to many Poles at those times, with the deaths of thousands of Polish POWs - who have been killed in Katyn and elsewhere by Stalin's design does not fly with me. Surely, the former should be properly investigated and accounted for, but those two events are not in the same class.

Propaganda manipulation is another matter:
source: http://www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,75248,4493775.html
translated by MZ

But the conclusion of your post:
is a real problem. A difficult one.

No, you - and millions of modern Russians - did not elect him. And you could find plenty of reasons or people in the past to blame for Stalin's success as a dictator. And I - together with millions of Poles and the rest of the world - feel sorry for your losses. Really!

But do you understand why so many Russians suffer a communal amnesia? Why so many Russians try to whitewash his crimes and build new monuments to him, like these bottles of vodka? One possibility is a fear to face the past, to account for the past.

source: Polityka, http://www.polityka.pl/polityka/index.jsp?place=Lead33&news_cat_id=934&news_id=228548&layout=18&forum_id=11544&fpage=Threads&page=text

My friend I can see that you are an intellectual and a sharp one at that.

However you are also like me, once you pick a side you stick to it like glue. I can see that in all your posts you take sides against any of Russia's actions, just as I take my side defending Russia's actions, and therefore it will always be hard to come to a consensus on topics on which we disagree, because we already have an entrenched opinion which we have convinced ourselves on, despite drawing from the same historical sources. These opinions are based on our private thinking of the subject, and has been influenced, whether we realise it or not, by the Political views we have, by the Culture that we identify ourselves with, etc...

That is my first relativist point on this debate; that it is useless to debate what country's historical sources we have used, what Propaganda we have listened to, etc... because the fact is that given the same historical sources, the same points of view, we are always going to come to different conclusions. As to why this is, I spent a lot of time thinking about it, but I still have nothing but a lot of different dis-organised ideas & theories floating around in my head, certainly nothing I can put down on paper. Something to do with how we grow up, how our political consiousness develops and how closely we can relate our own views to the views expressed in different strata of society & politics.

Your point on the typhoid & starvation deaths of the Soviet POW's... Well I'm glad you pointed it out, because it leads me onto my secound relativist point; it's all a matter of perception. You play down its significance because Polish soldiers suffered the same. Russians play down the significance of Katyn because Russians suffered the same, and indeed when you enter a Russian kitchen for a nice political discussion on this very topic, you will notice that while people symphathise with your position and agree that it was an abhorant atrocity, their cynical nature will compel them to point out it is likely being used by politicians, which makes taking sides or supporting the positions of rival governments a pointless excersise.

It will also be frowned upon to start looking at the case of these Polish deaths too much. There were millions of deaths in WW2 as a result of all sides, and while many Polish officers and intelligencia were executed by Stalin, he executed even more Ukrainians, Russian officers and intelligencia for the same reason; in that he was waging a class-war, and the idea of nationalities didn't matter to him a great deal. By focussing on the Polish deaths, it would create an impression that only the Poles suffered, and that somehow they were singled out more than others, an assertation which would quite frankly insult many Russians.

As to whether Stalin should be brought out in the open or forgotten about? Leave that to Russian society. The state has no bearing on it, and even if it were trying to defend Stalin's policies (which it isn't to my knowledge), it would likely have very little effect on the opinions being formulated by Russians on Stalin.

It is a great misconception that Russian points of view are drawn from Putin's policies. It is in fact the other way around, the current government largely reflects (although not always) the views & greiviences of many Russians, which in their current form have been around since at least the 90's. Foreign thinkers, meanwhile, are quite happy to assume that the reason why Putin has such high approval ratings in Russia, is because he brainwashed the whole Russian society :D

As for Stalin. Well the point is not that people like him, is that they just don't care. Continuing from before, the cynisism of the people at large very quickly transformed into political apathy for the younger generation. Soviet Nostalgia hit the nation a few years ago, and things like this have probably been selling like hotcakes. The East Germans went through the same thing a few years back; and probably it took root because even though, like many Russians, they didn't have any special bitterness for what the USSR or Socialist East Germany represented in terms of ideology, they just didn't believe in it any more, they needed a new way of doing things. It would be very funny is a similar wave hit Poland :)

There is a certain amount of respect reserved for Stalin however. For all his mass-murdering tendencies, he did win the War, and many believe that no-one else could have done it but him. So for that reason there is a strata of society that believes in him (mostly the older generation and those living in the distant rural areas), and puts up statues, makes vodka bottles, or whatever. But what has this got to do with the Russian Government, or the Majority of Russian People?

Mishka Zubov

09-17-2007, 07:55 PM

I pronounce a stalemate of this discussion - otherwise we could continue with it for ages. :-)

Few minor points though:

By no means I ever exaggerate the Polish side of Stalin's atrocities. I am acutely aware of the estimates of the Russian/Ukrainian victims - dozen of millions perhaps? I have never implied that Polish losses were greater than that. That was a cheap shot on your part. :-(

I am also aware of the role the propaganda plays in politics. I have been brought in the world ruled by all sorts of propaganda - including the Western one. And I have an ability to sense minute particles of it miles away. But I have a little theory of my own, which I call "Failing to adjust the size of pores in ones personal anti-propaganda filter." This means that no matter how hard you try to protect yourself against propaganda you will always fail - your filter is not good enough, and only the outsiders may be able to point it out to you.

I am such an external observer of things happening in Poland and Russia now. It's easier for me to notice how their propaganda works - in both cases. I have seen many posts on this forum that prove my point with high clarity. And I may state with high certainty that Russian propaganda works better than you would like to admit.

Katyn plays a big role in domestic Kaczynskis' politics, but lesser than you would like to attribute it to him. After all, in his today's visit to Katyn he was trying to convey the same message as yours:

"The Soviet Union no longer exists. We have a new Russia. We should live for the future and consider the past with calm and wisdom, but also with respect for the truth," Kaczynski said, according to Polish news agency PAP.
"Today we should pay respect, we should preserve their memory. Historical memory, of what is good and of what is bad, is important. But this does not mean we want to feed only on this memory," he said.
source: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jI8_K-Q7cMbUc5OOU8Z-i6_egEHw

I do not know what is it about Poles - as opposed to Russians - that they mourn for so long. After all both nations have been denied a right to grieve openly for dozen of years. Maybe Russians are more forward looking than Poles?

But that's another topic for discussion for which I have found an excellent external opinion. :-)

CPL Trevoga

09-17-2007, 08:28 PM

Just to bring it up today.

Whole story*: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

"Aniversary Of Soviet Russians" <-- that's flamebait right there Herr. There were Soviet Ukranians, Belarussians and so forth.

To me it's a great anniversary of liberation of Western Belarus from Polish occupation and suppression of Belorussian culture by Polish oppressors.

Herrmannek

09-17-2007, 08:46 PM

Mishka Zubov

09-17-2007, 09:41 PM

"Aniversary Of Soviet Russians" <-- that's flamebait right there Herr. There were Soviet Ukranians, Belarussians and so forth.

To me it's a great anniversary of liberation of Western Belarus from Polish occupation and suppression of Belorussian culture by Polish oppressors.

Belarussian culture - no longer being supressed by Polish opressors - evidently flourishes. I would like to see some newer statistics. Anyone?

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1664/belorussianlangys4.png
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1431/belorussianpapermi5.png

source: http://www.coactivity.vgtu.lt/upload/filosof_zurn/g_gribov_o_popko_filosofija_nr_1_t15.pdf
LANGUAGE PROBLEM IN THE BELORUSSIAN HISTORY
Georgij M. Gribov, Olga N. Popko
Dept of Philosophy and Cultural Theory, BrestStateTechnicalUniversity, Belarus
E-mail: olze@list.ru

Switek

09-18-2007, 02:10 AM

To me it's a great anniversary of liberation of Western Belarus from Polish occupation and suppression of Belorussian culture by Polish oppressors.

Do you still read "Pravda"? :roll:

You made my day http://www.nfow.pl/images/smiles/smichnasali.gif

Mamont

09-18-2007, 05:46 AM

Do you still read "Pravda"? :roll:
You are getting too simple, Switek. It seems you have short memory of SU-Polish wars and political relations between 1917-1939.. Anyway i think Stalin had a good satisfaction for Riga peace treaty. There is no need for exessive dramatisation and victimization stance as polish goverment was the first to bring such day to existance.

Switek

09-18-2007, 06:12 AM

No I'm not... I know this part of history quite well ... USSR had broken more than 20 treaties signed between SU and Poland and with no single legal basis attacked Poland. Soviet Union fulfiled, that way, agreement with its ally: 3rd Reich. Facts are hard. You can find and produce thousands of explanations and justifications, I don't care. Most Russians are really immune for any argument.

An interesting map published in "Izwiestja" newspaper on Sept. 18th. 1939.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Mapa_Paktu_R_M_Izwiestia-18.09.1939.jpg/671px-Mapa_Paktu_R_M_Izwiestia-18.09.1939.jpg

Mamont

09-18-2007, 06:22 AM

No I'm not... I know this part of history quite well ... USSR had broken more than 20 treaties signed between SU and Poland and with no single legal basis attacked Poland. Gees. Broke? Learn your own history, than teach others. Polish goverment collapsed and fleeing the country, it was about 8 hours before its crossing of romanian border when SU entered Poland.. If Stalin didn't interfere, Hitler would took whole Poland. I guess that was more desirable outcome for you and the likes..

PrivateBunny

09-18-2007, 06:27 AM

Funny,but you can say "thanks" for the Katyn massacre to one Pole.
Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky - remember him? He was a founder of NKVD.
Also say "thanks" to Joseph Stalin - he from Caucasus, typical representative of "occupied" georgian nation.

Herrmannek

09-18-2007, 07:12 AM

Dzierżyński was traitor, in this light his Polish roots have no meaning.

Flamming_Python

09-18-2007, 07:16 AM

Dzierżyński was traitor, in this light his Polish roots have no meaning.

No you can't say that. That way someone can heap onto Russia the likes of Stalin, Beria, etc... simply by pronouncing them traitors and under Russian control. Just because your current government dis-owns the man, doesn't take away the fact that he is Polish. If the current Russian government disowned Lenin for example, it still wouldn't make him any less Russian.

I think what you are really afraid of admitting is that the Bolsheviks were an internationalist movement that included among them all sorts; Russians, Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, Latvians (yes even Latvians), Georgians, etc... which together comprised the leadership of the Soviet Union.

Herrmannek

09-18-2007, 07:27 AM

Switek

09-18-2007, 07:44 AM

Gees. Broke? Learn your own history, than teach others. Polish goverment collapsed and fleeing the country, it was about 8 hours before its crossing of romanian border when SU entered Poland.. If Stalin didn't interfere, Hitler would took whole Poland. I guess that was more desirable outcome for you and the likes..

Soviet invasion of Poland begun between 3.00-5.00 a.m. Polish president and government left to Romania in the evening of the same day 17th. Sept. 1939, becouse of this invasion. What doesn't change the fact that our government was active and was recognized by Soviet Union.

Soviet agression was a criminal act the same like German one., whether you like it or not. Soviets became this samie kind of cruel occupants like Nazis. Hard facts.

Mamont

09-18-2007, 07:52 AM

Soviet invasion of Poland begun between 3.00-5.00 a.m. Polish president and government left to Romania in the evening of the same day 17th. Sept. 1939, becouse of this invasion. What doesn't change the fact that our government was active and was recognized by Soviet Union. Switek, you really amusing me. Let me reapeat a bit of history to you: "1 september Germany invaded Poland, 1 september polish president left capital, 5 september - members of goverment, Rydz-Smigly left capital at 7 september, than at 10 september he started to move towards Romania and cross border at 16 september(about 100 km per day by the way, impressive result considering situation). Talks with France about transit of polish goverment were 9-11 september, with Romania - 16 september. Polish goverment crossed romanian border at night 17 september, 19 they were interned." Your goverment left your country for it's destiny. It abandoned it's people before soviet invasion. It had no power and no authority. As i've already said - learn your own history, than teach others.

Soviet agression was a criminal act the same like German one., whether you like it or not. Soviets became this samie kind of cruel occupants like Nazis. Hard facts. Oh lord..

PrivateBunny

09-18-2007, 07:59 AM

Dzier?y?ski was traitor, in this light his Polish roots have no meaning.

Traitor? From you point of view - maybe. But you so easy reject your compatriot. He was a catholic and product of Polish society for that time.
Ha-ha - it's a secret of Polish commercial success: skip bad things and accept good :] Like you did with events of 1938 and 1939.
You don't accept responsibility for this man, then, in this light we can't accept responsibility for Katyn.
Too much bloodiest events between our nations - remember it, but if you want to break vicious circle - there is point for us to stop blame each other.

Herrmannek

09-18-2007, 08:37 AM

Traitor? From you point of view - maybe. But you so easy reject your compatriot. He was a catholic and product of Polish society for that time.

Ha-ha - it's a secret of Polish commercial success: skip bad things and accept good :] Like you did with events of 1938 and 1939.

You don't accept responsibility for this man, then, in this light we can't accept responsibility for Katyn.
Too much bloodiest events between our nations - remember it, but if you want to break vicious circle - there is point for us to stop blame each other.
What a bunch of demagogy. Do you ever know what traitor means? You actually need to be part of something to betray it. We hang traitors on trees. Instead of accusing us for wrong doing you should rather regret we never had a chance to have rope, branch, and Dzierżynski in same place and same time...

1938 is incomparable to Katyn and Soviet occupation. And ask Czechs if we didn't apologized for that multiple times. Even on this forum you can find lots of discussions on the topic and common conclusions. We can understand land claims, rematch, but if you start killing officers, inteligence, make mass deportations and so on, together with Nazi Germans doing the same things on the other side of the doted line all similarities END...

You could swing this that way, if you wouldn't be consider accomplice.. Stop hiding documents and protecting still living executioners and commanding officers, until this happen you can't go this way...

You let the truth out we can stop blaming each other. You don't reconcile until all past resentments are cleared or at least explained.

PrivateBunny

09-18-2007, 09:07 AM

1. you post "Soviet Russian" - and run thread in national-colored thematics.
2. You wanna to accept some things and events but don't accept others, however this links of one chain.

The truth: Katyn massacre - a war crime, commited by Head of communist party and NKVD by political reasons. By same reasons killed Czar family, and commited "cleanings ammong" officers of Red Army. In this crime no place for russian-polish hate or love habbits.

You can continue blame us, we will continue blame you. In history enough facts to use agains each other.

ursus

09-18-2007, 10:32 AM

Where was Putin while the Katyn comemoration ceremonies took place? He was invited.

Switek

09-18-2007, 10:46 AM

ursus, we are wasting our time here. Some guys knew, know and will know our history better...

Anyway an interesting article:

President Kaczynski visits site of Katyn massacre
Warsaw, Poland September 18, 2007

Polish President Lech Kaczynski made his first official visit to Russia on Monday to commemorate the murder of 22,000 Polish officers and intellectuals by the Soviet secret police in 1940.

The incident is known as the Katyn massacre and a movie is being made about it by renowned Polish director Andrzej Wajda.

Kaczynski, accompanied by relatives of the victims of the massacre, laid a wreath and lit candles in the spot where Polish officers, soldiers and civilians, who were taken prisoner by the Red Army in 1939, were executed in the Katyn forest, in the Smolensk province near Russia's western border.

Russia has long maintained a stance that no massacre ever took place and has denied access to archival documents for Polish researchers.

Kaczynski, however, was somewhat conciliatory while maintaining Poland's stance that it wants the truth to be known.

Kaczynski said, "The Soviet Union no longer exists. We have a new Russia. We should live for the future and consider the past with calm and wisdom, but also with respect for the truth."

"Today we should pay respect, we should preserve their memory. Historical memory, of what is good and of what is bad, is important. But this does not mean we want to feed only on this memory," President Kaczynski added.

Commentators in both Poland and Russia said Kaczynski's visit was partly aimed at rallying Polish voters ahead of Parliamentary elections on October 21st.

Kaczynski said the order came from Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin which was carried out by the NKVD secret police. He termed it "an act of genocide."

The Katyn massacre looms large in the memory of Poles as a crime which annihilated an elite group of pre-war Poland's male population, thus depriving the country of strong leaders able to defend the country.

The Warsaw Voice (http://www.warsawvoice.pl)

daily666

09-18-2007, 11:51 AM

^^^ That was preety reasonable, especially for him.

The Russians here should understand that the 17th of September anniversary is such an important date for Poles these days, because for 50 years we were banned to mention it.

It was an invasion that's a fact, and saying that it was a liberation of Belarussians form Polish rule is like saying thar Iraq invasion was a liberation from Saddams rule. Pure crap.

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 12:22 PM

No you can't say that. That way someone can heap onto Russia the likes of Stalin, Beria, etc... simply by pronouncing them traitors and under Russian control. Just because your current government dis-owns the man, doesn't take away the fact that he is Polish. If the current Russian government disowned Lenin for example, it still wouldn't make him any less Russian.

I think what you are really afraid of admitting is that the Bolsheviks were an internationalist movement that included among them all sorts; Russians, Poles, Jews, Ukrainians, Latvians (yes even Latvians), Georgians, etc... which together comprised the leadership of the Soviet Union.

Frankly, I do not understand your logic here. No one denies and no Pole has ever denied that he was a native Pole. See for example the Polish wikipedia entry, http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feliks_Dzier%C5%BCy%C5%84ski, which talks in more details about his Polish roots than its English counterpart, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Edmundovich_Dzerzhinsky.

And you do not need a government of any sort to declare somebody a traitor. In view of millions of Poles - both, his contemporaries and modern ones - he was a scum, a murderer and a traitor. He was and is being hated - not particularly for his political affiliation with Bolshevik movement, but for his engagement with the most ruthless murderous organization ever established.

In times of Communist rule the citizens had to endure his monuments, and squares and streets named after him. So what? They are gone now. The President Wilson Square in Warsaw bears again its prewar name, and the prewar Półwiejska in Poznań is again Półwiejska. And funny thing about the latter: during the Communist times the older citizen of Poznań rarely referred to it as Dzierżyński Street - only when they had to correct the younger generation, point out their 'faux pais'.

Which is not to say about some Russians and Belarusians - they are apparently quite proud of him, considering the fact that some towns and streets over there still bear his name.

PrivateBunny said

(...)
Ha-ha - it's a secret of Polish commercial success: skip bad things and accept good :]
(...)
No one claims that Poland was or is a land of angels - all encompassing 100% percent angels. Poland had and still has its share of scum and criminals. So has any other country of the world.

Your logic is really screwed here. Why should not I be proud of accomplishments and heroes and - at the same time - hate the scum originated from my native land?

Mamont

09-18-2007, 12:52 PM

Where was Putin while the Katyn comemoration ceremonies took place? He was invited. Hm, why you asking this here? Take a trip to Moscow and ask him directly. Anyway, how come Putin and Katyn emerged here? Is this some kind of gestalt, implanted by media in the minds of polish people?

I understand the reason to view results of collapse of Poland, but i see no will or interest from polish members to even mention what chain of events brought the fall. It's always onlly big evil Russia(not even Soviet Union) with a slight flavor of Nazi Germany that tore apart poor innocent and unsuspecting Poland.. What went wrong in the way of thinking about it?

PrivateBunny

09-18-2007, 12:59 PM

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 01:03 PM

Switek, you really amusing me. Let me reapeat a bit of history to you: "1 september Germany invaded Poland, 1 september polish president left capital, 5 september - members of goverment, Rydz-Smigly left capital at 7 september, than at 10 september he started to move towards Romania and cross border at 16 september(about 100 km per day by the way, impressive result considering situation). Talks with France about transit of polish goverment were 9-11 september, with Romania - 16 september. Polish goverment crossed romanian border at night 17 september, 19 they were interned." Your goverment left your country for it's destiny. It abandoned it's people before soviet invasion. It had no power and no authority. As i've already said - learn your own history, than teach others.

Oh lord..

This is a good example of using technicalities for justification of events which were expedient for Russians, but morally unacceptable for everybody else.

Wacław Grzybowski, Ambassador of Polish Republic to Soviet Union, had this to say to Vladimir Potiomkin, a deputy Peoples' Comissar of Foreign Affairs - after hearing the diplomatic note read by Potiomkin:

None of the arguments, used in this note, for justification of converting the Polish-Soviet pacts into some slips of paper resist any critique. According to my information the Head of State and the Government remain in Polish territory. The state sovereignty exists for so long as the soldiers of regular army fight. Whatever the note says about national minorities is nonsense.

You had talked many times in our conversations about Slavic solidarity. Where is your Slavic solidarity now? During the First World War the territories of Belgium and Serbia have been occuppied, yet no one has ever considered that mutual obligations towards them were no longer valid.

Napoleon entered Moscow but as long as Kutuzov Army existed it was thought that Russia also existed. Warsaw is defending itself, Polish state exists."
Grzybowski refused to accept the note.
source: http://www.redakcjawojskowa.pl/gazeta/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7874&Itemid=27
translated by MZ

seer

09-18-2007, 01:15 PM

Not so simply. From one point of view CheKa/NKVD/KGB was a secret police and tool used for murderings and repressions. From other - there was a people who was a patriots and died for our country. And first hard to divide from second. Same question: - General Yaruzelski - war hero or criminal?
That reason why streets in Russia, Belorussia and other countries not renamed - it's our history.

So what you are basically saying is that from 'one point of view' the CheKa/NKVD/KGB crimes against humanity are justified and the victims must have done something (presumably against the motherland) to deserve their faith. ... hmmm Interesting.

PS. Now we know that Jaruzelski is a criminal.

Mamont

09-18-2007, 01:17 PM

This is a good example of using technicalities for justification of events which were expedient for Russians, but morally unacceptable for everybody else. Are you serious? What morality has to do with politics? Especially at that period, when almost everybody planned something against each other and when the opportunity arises to grab something - they went for it? Morality is the last and most useless argument when speaking about politics..

daily666

09-18-2007, 01:20 PM

Not so simply. From one point of view CheKa/NKVD/KGB was a secret police and tool used for murderings and repressions. From other - there was a people who was a patriots and died for our country. And first hard to divide from second. Same question: - General Yaruzelski - war hero or criminal?
That reason why streets in Russia, Belorussia and other countries not renamed - it's our history.

Goebbels, Goering, Hitler, Himmler are all part of German history. None of these names remain on German streets. The analogy goes on. The Gestapo was a secret police used for murderings and repressions, same with SS and SA (earlier). Not many Germans would defend their actions like some Russians are defending CheKa/NKVD/KGB.

seer

09-18-2007, 01:29 PM

Where was Putin while the Katyn comemoration ceremonies took place? He was invited.

Probably handing out refrigerators to the newly impregnated russian girls. p-)

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 01:44 PM

Are you serious? What morality has to do with politics? Especially at that period, when almost everybody planned something against each other and when the opportunity arises to grab something - they went for it? Morality is the last and most useless argument when speaking about politics..

Yes, I am serious. Great Britain considered it a moral obligation to come with the aid to Belgium. They had been also dragged into the WW2 - even though they were not ready for war - because their sense of fair play.

Maybe I am a bit naive, but it looks like many people share my views. Just Google "morality and politics". The very first example starts with this:

A nation's political trends are governed by several factors--the state of the economy, the vested interests of politicians and bureaucrats, the attitudes of the media, and many others. But the fundamental factor is moral: the beliefs people have about right and wrong, good and bad; their aspirations for their lives; the virtues they practice and vices they denounce; the responsibilities and obligations they accept; the things they feel entitled to; the standards that govern their sense of fair play; the ideals that shape their sense of what is worthy.
source: http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--211-Morality_Politics.aspx

Flamming_Python

09-18-2007, 02:11 PM

Frankly, I do not understand your logic here. No one denies and no Pole has ever denied that he was a native Pole. See for example the Polish wikipedia entry, http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feliks_Dzier%C5%BCy%C5%84ski, which talks in more details about his Polish roots than its English counterpart, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Edmundovich_Dzerzhinsky.

And you do not need a government of any sort to declare somebody a traitor. In view of millions of Poles - both, his contemporaries and modern ones - he was a scum, a murderer and a traitor. He was and is being hated - not particularly for his political affiliation with Bolshevik movement, but for his engagement with the most ruthless murderous organization ever established.

In times of Communist rule the citizens had to endure his monuments, and squares and streets named after him. So what? They are gone now. The President Wilson Square in Warsaw bears again its prewar name, and the prewar Pó?wiejska in Pozna? is again Pó?wiejska. And funny thing about the latter: during the Communist times the older citizen of Pozna? rarely referred to it as Dzier?y?ski Street - only when they had to correct the younger generation, point out their 'faux pais'.

Which is not to say about some Russians and Belarusians - they are apparently quite proud of him, considering the fact that some towns and streets over there still bear his name.

Well I can't speak nor can I claim to speak for all Russians and Belorussians, but on my part i'm not proud of anyone who had anything to do with the secret police. I don't think any educated Russians are either in particular. In Russia you can find people who love Hitler even, and i'm sure that you have such idiots in your country as you have in every country, but it makes no sence to focus on them.

As for the declaring traitor, etc... Well whatever, it's again a matter of perception. Many Russians viewed and still view the Bolsheviks as traitors as they overthrew Kazinsky's government, or because they executed the Tsar. Many Russians regard the USSR as an illegitimate regime that brought ruin to their country, much in the same way as the Poles see their own Socialist government as illegitimate. And likewise, there are plenty of people in Russia that prefer to focus on the good the USSR did for their country, and regard the revolution and the Tsar's execution as neccessery in order to stop counter-productive forces. In Poland this strata of society is no doubt smaller, but i'm sure it exists.

I think of pluralism of opinions as a good thing for society. It helps balance viewpoints out and prevents too much white-washing and demonising. I am someone with strong Socialist symphathies, but I don't associate my views with the USSR as I don't view it as a Socialist society, rather a Nation State that had good sides and bad sides to it. Modern day Russia, I believe doesn't draw too heavily into the Imperial or the Soviet period, into Left or Right politics, indeed if it tried it would create too much of a fracture in Society, and we could end up with a situation similar to what is now unfolding in the Ukraine. Which is probably why you don't get too much Russian Government glorification or demonisation of the USSR, it's better to just leave it to society.

Flamming_Python

09-18-2007, 02:23 PM

One more thing... For anyone who can understand Russian, here is Putin commentating on the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty on the behalf of an Estonian journalist who brought up 'that' question :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/DFYfOfowEHk

Where was Putin while the Katyn comemoration ceremonies took place? He was invited.

Why didn't Kazcinsky come to Moscow?

Mamont

09-18-2007, 02:24 PM

Yes, I am serious. Great Britain considered it a moral obligation to come with the aid to Belgium. They had been also dragged into the WW2 - even though they were not ready for war - because their sense of fair play. I don't know from where to start to not to ruin your dreams of british political nobility too cruelly and suddenly. Probably to not go too far from the topic you could start from Spanish civil war.. Then go straight for the plans about french colonies, than to works of Kitchen M., Padfield P. and so on and on.. Not to forget Churchill of course.

Maybe I am a bit naive, but it looks like many people share my views. Sorry, but this is just a way to escape reality. And no - Santa does not exist too despite many people beliefs. Sorry again.

Switek

09-18-2007, 02:43 PM

Flamming_Python

09-18-2007, 02:57 PM

The most funny thing is that our dear Russian friends who claim to be members of new free world and new Russia frperfectly defend stalinist propaganda lies invented 68 years ago. What a posthumous victory of comrade Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili. He must be proud of some of you. rofl.

Whatever. I am simply trying to look at things from both angles.

I am sure that in 100 years time all the history books will have information about how much propaganda there was in the early 21st century on all sides, just like history books now try to paint a picture of how much propaganda there was on all sides in WW1, in the Cold War, etc...

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 03:03 PM

I don't know from where to start to not to ruin your dreams of british political nobility too cruelly and suddenly. Probably to not go too far from the topic you could start from Spanish civil war.. Then go straight for the plans about french colonies, than to works of Kitchen M., Padfield P. and so on and on.. Not to forget Churchill of course.

Sorry, but this is just a way to escape reality. And no - Santa does not exist too despite many people beliefs. Sorry again.

What can I say - I understand more than you are crediting me for about British colonial politics. No need for patronizing, Sir. But I stand my ground on national moral values as being one of the driving forces in politics.

This is your choice to reject those. And I am glad that we do not play in the same team.

PrivateBunny

09-18-2007, 03:36 PM

Goebbels, Goering, Hitler, Himmler are all part of German history. None of these names remain on German streets. The analogy goes on. The Gestapo was a secret police used for murderings and repressions, same with SS and SA (earlier). Not many Germans would defend their actions like some Russians are defending CheKa/NKVD/KGB.

Not many Russians defend cruel actions of NKVD or Katyn Massacre. Each average russian family have a member who was in prison or died during Stalins rule.
In Russia no streets named for Beria, Ezhov or Stalin. No new streets have names of Lenin and other communist. Dzerzhinskiy statue was removed from Lubyanka square in 1991. Although NKVD have jail guard duty and political pursuit role, where was a much shame things and crimes, there also was a peoples who fight with enemy, do real contr-espionage job and conducted special operations on enemy territory. Some about Dzerzhinskiy - he was a revolutioner and idealist, other his succecors where much worse and not so principial. And he use same methods as his political enemies - terror and opressions. Nazi leaders where justified by Nurnberg tribunal, no legitimate court justified Dzerzhinskiy or even Joseph Stalin.

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 03:49 PM

Let me be the first! Me! me!
Nazi leaders where justified by Nurnberg tribunal, no legitimate court justified Dzerzhinskiy or even Joseph Stalin.That's so funny! This thread needs some humor.

I understand that you meant something else than "justified"?

Assuming that you meant "judged", "charged", "put on trial", "convicted", or any such word - who suppose to come forward with such initiative? Just give us one scenario. :-)

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 03:57 PM

There is more humor around. Check this:
http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120341

Mamont

09-18-2007, 03:59 PM

What can I say - I understand more than you are crediting me for about British colonial politics. I was pointing you not only to colonial politics, but on general.

No need for patronizing, Sir. But I stand my ground on national moral values as being one of the driving forces in politics.I believe you're mistaking moral values and actions to preserve those and probably domestic politics with foreign. For example situation with Iraq now. In borders of our discussion: with Spain back then, with war reparations in 1932, "pacification program" for Germany, english-german sea treaty from 1935 and so on... High words does not cover or change deeds.

This is your choice to reject those. And I am glad that we do not play in the same team. Oh, "it's us or them" mentality again, how boring. This is what drags you down - the necessity to choose teams instead of independent thinking...

Mishka Zubov

09-18-2007, 04:09 PM

I meant - my team. Sorry, I set the rules, you wouldn't be accepted. And I am a fiercely independent thinker, thank you :-)

CPL Trevoga

09-18-2007, 07:15 PM

Do you still read "Pravda"? :roll:

You made my day http://www.nfow.pl/images/smiles/smichnasali.gif

I posted obvious bullsh*t, because Herr here posts obvious Kachinski's propaganda bull****. I'm a simple Russian peasant, why a simple Polish peasant feels that he needs to posts anti-Russian crap, that blames all Russians for war crimes? Why does he feels that we Russians responsible for such crimes? We Christian too brother, "thou shalt not murder" is our commandment as well. It's like I would blame you, for Polish occupation of Moscow in 16th century.

Kap2406

09-18-2007, 09:00 PM

ursus

09-19-2007, 08:44 AM

Herrmannek

09-19-2007, 09:33 AM

I posted obvious bullsh*t, because Herr here posts obvious Kachinski's propaganda bull****. I'm a simple Russian peasant, why a simple Polish peasant feels that he needs to posts anti-Russian crap, that blames all Russians for war crimes? Why does he feels that we Russians responsible for such crimes? We Christian too brother, "thou shalt not murder" is our commandment as well. It's like I would blame you, for Polish occupation of Moscow in 16th century.

Actually only thing I expect from Russia is to give us access to soviet documents as you promised(Yeltsin) and to let us bring in front of international tribunal people who can be charged with war crime or crime against humanity. Thats all... Ask your scientists if they were allowed to freely inspect deaths of Polish-Soviet war prisoners and what the findings were. From historical perspective this is all we want. Admitting to facts...

As for Polish occupation of Moscow. We are pretty damn proud of it when it comes to this military achievement, but if you want blame it on us let it be. Just stick to the facts doing so...

Switek

09-19-2007, 03:50 PM

Because some nations either do not need world's attention, or accomplish something, in order to get it. And then, there are countries, that like to present themselves as victims on a constant basis, trying to get that attention.

What a crap... taken directly from Putin's propagandists mouths. Congratulations for your deeply independent thoughts you share with us. The same was said about Estonia and Georgia this year. Don't you have much more fresh propaganda ammo... ? rofl

Kap2406

09-19-2007, 04:44 PM

What a crap... taken directly from Putin's propagandists mouths. Congratulations for your deeply independent thoughts you share with us. The same was said about Estonia and Georgia this year. Don't you have much more fresh propaganda ammo... ? rofl
Truth hurts, doesn't it?p-)
My opinion is purely based on the responses by members on this forum, and the news that are constanly coming out of "free Europe".
P.S. As much you want to believe it, Putin neither controls nor affects my opinion.

Switek

09-19-2007, 05:17 PM

Truth hurts, doesn't it?p-)
My opinion is purely based on the responses by members on this forum, and the news that are constanly coming out of "free Europe".
P.S. As much you want to believe it, Putin neither controls nor affects my opinion.

What the truth, mate? p-). I didn't mention Putin himself- read again my post.

Kap2406

09-19-2007, 05:25 PM

... I didn't mention Putin himself- read again my post.
Potato-Potahto

Switek

09-19-2007, 05:33 PM

Potato-Potahto

What a childishness.... rofl

No arguments: shout your mouth up. :-D

Kap2406

09-19-2007, 06:05 PM

What a childishness.... rofl

No arguments: shout your mouth up. :-D
Just a few examples over the last years:
1. 60th anniversary of liberation of Warsaw. Poland: Evil Soviet Union did not help us liberate Warsaw when we expected, but did it at their own convinience.
2. Russia: We will start selling our natural resources based on their true market value. Certain nations: Oh, noos, we are trying to build freedom and democracy, but evil Russians are interfering with their evil gas prices.
3. Polish meat ban issues.
4. Georgean screen plays.
5. Polish complains over lack of votes in EU.
6. And now this topic.

As a conclusion: Собака лает, караван идёт:)

Switek

09-19-2007, 06:10 PM

Kap2406

09-19-2007, 06:34 PM

Look again at the the thread title:

"Aniversary Of Soviet Russians and Nazi Germans joining efforts to destroy Poland"

Shut up kid and go to bed. :bash:

I rest my case:)

Mishka Zubov

09-19-2007, 06:58 PM

Just a few examples over the last years:
1. 60th anniversary of liberation of Warsaw. Poland: Evil Soviet Union did not help us liberate Warsaw when we expected, but did it at their own convinience.
2. Russia: We will start selling our natural resources based on their true market value. Certain nations: Oh, noos, we are trying to build freedom and democracy, but evil Russians are interfering with their evil gas prices.
3. Polish meat ban issues.
4. Georgean screen plays.
5. Polish complains over lack of votes in EU.
6. And now this topic.

As a conclusion: Собака лает, караван идёт:)

Oh, you have created a list of taboo topics! Let me help you. These are the days that may harm you - they are all apparently anti-Russian. Let me start with a partial list of Polish public and national holidays:

7. March 13, World's Day of Remembrance of Katyn Massacre Victims
8. May 3, 1791 Polish Constitution Day
9. June 28, Day of Remembrance of the Poznań June 1956 events
10. August 15, Polish Army Day, celebrating battle of Warsaw in 1920
11. August 31, Day of Solidarity and Freedom (August 1980 Agreements)
12. November 11, Independence Day

And then there are all sorts of anniversaries, although not exactly holidays. But stupid Poles still bring flowers to all sorts of monuments and cemeteries to commemorate those that have died for one cause or another - November 1830 Uprising, Battle of Tobruk, Battle of Narvik, Monte Cassino, etc.

And although most of those anniversaries have nothing to do with the Great Russia itself - who knows, what kind of anti-Russian agenda these individuals may harbor in their hearts.

Собака лает, караван идёт[Dogs bark, a caravan continues]

Exactly! So why are you here, barking?

CPL Trevoga

09-19-2007, 08:41 PM

Actually only thing I expect from Russia is to give us access to soviet documents as you promised(Yeltsin) and to let us bring in front of international tribunal people who can be charged with war crime or crime against humanity. Thats all... Ask your scientists if they were allowed to freely inspect deaths of Polish-Soviet war prisoners and what the findings were. From historical perspective this is all we want. Admitting to facts...

As for Polish occupation of Moscow. We are pretty damn proud of it when it comes to this military achievement, but if you want blame it on us let it be. Just stick to the facts doing so...

I think those are reasonable demands, so stop acting "stupid" with posts about "Soviet Russians" and sh*t. If you were from Texas, I wouldn't expect you to know the difference between Russia and USSR, but since you're from Poland stop acting like a fool. Murder of Polish officers was a serious crime, people like you are making political circus out of it. Even Kachinski said that Russia is not responsible for Stalin's crime.

http://www.izvestia.ru/world/article3108454/

As for Polish occupation of Moscow. We are pretty damn proud of it when it comes to this military achievement, but if you want blame it on us let it be. Just stick to the facts doing so...

Yeah ok, while we were fighting infidels, we got back stabbed by fellow Christians. Thats a great achievement.

Lokos

09-19-2007, 11:07 PM

As for Polish occupation of Moscow. We are pretty damn proud of it when it comes to this military achievement, but if you want blame it on us let it be. Just stick to the facts doing so...

I don't want to rain on the parade, my Polish friend, but your noble ancestors had far greater feats of valour to be proud of. Sixteenth century Muscovy wasn't even a European top twenty power... The Commonwealth, however, certainly was.

Lokos

Herrmannek

09-20-2007, 08:02 AM

I think those are reasonable demands, so stop acting "stupid" with posts about "Soviet Russians" and sh*t. If you were from Texas, I wouldn't expect you to know the difference between Russia and USSR, but since you're from Poland stop acting like a fool. Murder of Polish officers was a serious crime, people like you are making political circus out of it. Even Kachinski said that Russia is not responsible for Stalin's crime.

http://www.izvestia.ru/world/article3108454/

Yeah ok, while we were fighting infidels, we got back stabbed by fellow Christians. Thats a great achievement.

What Circus? Commemorating and investigating still open historical events is not a circus. Are Americans looking for every bit of bone on their battlefields clowns? We didn't have full 60 years to close this matters. We started closing them just recently and meet with resistance. We can tell difference between CCCP and Russia. But who cares about nomenclature while Russia still protects CCCP scums? Don't really know what your newspapers are printing...Polish demands never was different than what I wrote above. Kaczynski didn't change his stance in that matter either.

As for fending off infidels. I think there is not much left to blame... We kick out random infidels on numerous times :)

@Lokos
Still counts :)

Mamont

09-20-2007, 09:43 AM

What Circus? Commemorating and investigating still open historical events is not a circus.
Hm, the name of the thread certainly did't fit in this category. Why you didn't use a name like "Fall of Poland"?

Are Americans looking for every bit of bone on their battlefields clowns? I don't see constant japan bashing from the US members over past deeds.

We didn't have full 60 years to close this matters. We started closing them just recently and meet with resistance. You've had 20 years. With increasing numbers of archives that are open each year. What's the problem? Impatient? Or you think that those documents must be presented to Poland on a plate with a red tape?

We can tell difference between CCCP and Russia.Yet you display none. Constantly.

But who cares about nomenclature while Russia still protects CCCP scums?You don't know anything about those people yet you call them scums. Exellent choice of actions.

Herrmannek

09-20-2007, 10:26 AM

Hm, the name of the thread certainly did't fit in this category. Why you didn't use a name like "Fall of Poland"?

I don't see constant japan bashing from the US members over past deeds.

You've had 20 years. With increasing numbers of archives that are open each year. What's the problem? Impatient? Or you think that those documents must be presented to Poland on a plate with a red tape?

Yet you display none. Constantly.

You don't know anything about those people yet you call them scums. Exellent choice of actions.
1) I would use Fall of Poland if it wouldn't be a planned deliberate extermination of polish inteligence, officers, and authorities, by both Soviets and Nazis...Almost everyone who wasn't ignorant peasant was targeted(to different extent of course).

2)Maybe because US had Japan under its foot and sorted things immediately? Plus Japan even now will not dare to upset US with attempts to falsify history...

3)not more than 17 Years and some particular documents known* from their title, signature, date stamp are still unavailable to us. *We got the index, but most important documents were never handed.

4)What more I have to know about people who first tortured, then ordered and shot into back of the heads of POWs? Only Thing I want to know about them are their signatures and names under order and post-order reports... Ghosts didn't kill 20000 people with shot in back of the head...

GodlessAmerica!

09-20-2007, 07:28 PM

Да че вы с ними спорите, пацаны?:roll: Если полякам так нравиться упиваться своими обидами - пускай упиваються! :|

Doublethinker

09-20-2007, 07:55 PM

Boring.

And meaningless. Unless someone wants to provoke another flame-war, there's little to achieve from such discussions. While Putin is still a president.

Mamont

09-20-2007, 08:03 PM

1) I would use Fall of Poland if it wouldn't be a planned deliberate extermination of polish inteligence, officers, and authorities, by both Soviets and Nazis...Almost everyone who wasn't ignorant peasant was targeted(to different extent of course). I really don't know what exactly you were smoking there, but i see you too need a little repetition in history, like Switek earlier. Let's see.
- SU viewed Poland as an enemy and one of the major possible allies of Nazi Germany. Anyone with at least basic knowledge of pre-war diplomatics know this. Even to this day some people in Poland claimed, that if not for arrogant and over-confident foreighn diplomacy Poland would march again through streets of Moscow with it's ally - the Third Reich.
- i never saw any hint of a directive, order or any document, that specifically pointed to extermionation of polish intelligence. Farthermore - why only relatively small number of prisoners was actually taken and killed? Or was there so little intelligence in Poland at that time?
- if all officers and intelligence were targeted for extermination, how come polish "union of armed resistance" turned to Kremlin for aid in battle with germans in 1940 and Stanislav Pstrokomskiy, who was arrested actually, even freely proposed a creation of "polish legion in red army"? Vanda Vasilevska supported such creation too. And out of three polish generals in custody two agreed to head such unit(Boruta-Spechovitch and Przhdeckiy) if Sikorsky passes his agreement, and third - Janushajtis - agreed without any need of words from Polish goverment in exile? Why they were even asked to do this and not simply killed and replaced by soviet commanders? Why create a polish unit anyway?
- during soviet invasion about 240000 soldiers were taken as prisoners. And only ~40k remained in soviet prisons to 1940(plus about 5k later from Baltic countries) out of whitch less than half was murdered - 15k. This shamefull act is described in Polish history as genocide. So, in other words out of 245000 polish citisens 230k were ignorant peasants. Not to mention the rest of the population. If someone stated such for my country i'd feel insulted.
- Let's continue about pre-war deportations. In 1939(2 december to be precise) Beria proposed Stalin to deport all former polish soldiers from P-SU1920 war, so-called "osadniki", from newly annexed territories. This operation must've been completed to 15 february 1940. They were not deported as part of "annihilation of polish intelligence", but as labor force and to ensure that in the upcoming war they would not join the Germany in another war with SU. Among "osadniki" there were members of families of prisoners, prostitutes, criminals, different refugees. Those who wished to move to Germany-occupied territory but received rejection from Germany must be moved deeper into the SU territory. Their deportation was delayed untill german comission ended it's work - 5 june 1940. According to instruction family members of repressed and warprisoners must be moved to Kazachtan for a period of 10 year, refugees - Ural and Syberia, criminals, prostitutes - Kazachstan and Uzbekistan. On 1.04.1940 number of deported was 210559. Although some researchers estimated the numbers up to 320-380k without any documents to support this. Why they were not killed? Even received amnesty and set free in august 1941? And in january 1943 they received passports while 165k people choosed to have soviet citisenship, 26k choosed to leave polish? And from when prostitutes are counted as intelligence?

We got the index, but most important documents were never handed. Why not take a trip to Russia by yourself?

4)What more I have to know about people who first tortured, then ordered and shot into back of the heads of POWs? Only Thing I want to know about them are their signatures and names under order and post-order reports... And? There are many people in the world that served for their country in a less fashioned way. Like Anthony Poshepny for example. Or polish offcer Grobitski, who boasted about how he and his fellow officers cut belly of a captured red army soldiers and put cat in, and then bet on who dies first - cat or soldiers. You have no right to judge them.

StukaJr

09-20-2007, 08:08 PM

I'm not sure what such a Politically motivated topic is doing in the History thread - especially taken out of context of decades of preceding historical events and putting things into something as simple and crude as the original statement... Politically speaking, this topic is naive in its expectation of any nation to bend over any further to make concessions than Russia has - extraordinary, must I add, for the side that won in the conflict!
Wake up and smell the textbook...

seer

09-20-2007, 08:52 PM

Да че вы с ними спорите, пацаны?:roll: Если полякам так нравиться упиваться своими обидами - пускай упиваються! :|

Hebrew???................

seer

09-20-2007, 09:19 PM

I really don't know . etc etc......

Uncle Stalin would be proud. :)

StukaJr

09-20-2007, 09:21 PM

Hebrew???................

Russian for (crudely translated):

"Why are you arguing, guys? If Poles want to get drunk on past trespasses - then let them"...

Uncle Stalin would be proud. :)

Stop the childish comments if you have nothing to add on topic... a$$hole

Mishka Zubov

09-20-2007, 11:56 PM

I really don't know what exactly you were smoking there, but i see you too need a little repetition in history, like Switek earlier. Let's see.
(...)

I do not understand what on earth you are trying to prove here.
- That "only relatively small number of prisoners was actually taken and killed"?
- That not "all officers and intelligence were targeted for extermination"?
- That this is wrong that "Polish history [describes it] as genocide", because only a fraction of detainees have been actually murdered?
- That this is OK to conduct massive deportations because they "were members of families of prisoners, prostitutes, criminals, different refugees"?
- That Soviet Union was very generous in offering amnesty to 210,559 people, or even passports? [This one is really good]
- That 165,000 Poles voluntarily and happily accepted SU citizenship?

How pathetic! Some of my family members, who escaped the deportations and did not suffer like the rest of them, but were - unlucky enough - born in today's Ukraine, had the "Nationality - Polish, Citizenship - Soviet Union" written into their internal passports - until the year 1956. This was done by decree and agreement between Polish People's Republic and Soviet Union.

And I love this word "amnesty". Amnesty of what? Of nationality?

i never saw any hint of a directive, order or any document, that specifically pointed to extermionation of polish intelligence.

If Polish senior and junior officers, intelligence personnel, government officials, landowners, priests, factory owners, or even settlers and police were not part of Polish intelligentsia - I do not know who was. All prewar Polish officers had university degree. I use only the wording taken from the document below.

Government officials? This covers all kind of bureaucracy - clerks included.

Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer, the Soviets were thus able to round up much of the Polish intelligentsia, as well as the Jewish, Ukrainian, Georgian and Belarusian intelligentsia of Polish citizenship.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

True, the document does not explicitly mention doctors, university professors, etc. - but they also suffered and that's another topic.

Let's read the basic document, which exists on a Russian website. I have no proof of its authenticity, but since Russian Federation has refused to share its documentation with the Polish Institute of National Memory, we can only go either by Polish sources (which you obviously reject by definition) or by some documents which are not official.

Russian source: http://katyn.codis.ru/kdocs1.htm
English translation: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/beria.html

Emphasis and slight formatting is mine.

Top Secret
5 March 1940
USSR People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs
Moscow

To Comrade Stalin

A large number of former officers of the Polish Army, employees of the Polish Police and intelligence services, members of Polish nationalist, counter-revolutionary parties, members of exposed counter-revolutionary resistance groups, escapees and others, all of them sworn enemies of Soviet authority full of hatred for the Soviet system, are currently being held in prisoner-of-war camps of the USSR NKVD and in prisons in the western provinces of Ukraine and Belarus.

The military and police officers in the camps are attempting to continue their counter-revolutionary activities and are carrying out anti-Soviet agitation. Each of them is waiting only for his release in order to start actively struggling against Soviet authority.

The organs of the NKVD in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus have uncovered a number of counter-revolutionary rebel organisations.
Former officers of the Polish Army and police as well as gendarmes have played an active role in all of these organisations.

Amongst the detained escapees and violators of the state borders a considerable number of people have been identified as belonging to counter-revolutionary espionage and resistance organisations.

14,736 former officers, government officials, landowners, police, gendarmes, prison guards, settlers in the border regions and intelligence officers [more than 97% are Poles] are being held in prisoner-of-war camps.

This number includes soldiers and junior officers.

Included are:
generals, colonels and lieutenant colonels- 295
majors and captains- 2080
lieutenants, second lieutenants and ensigns- 6049
officers and juniors of the police, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence officers- 1030
rank and file police officers, gendarmes, prison guards and intelligence personnel- 5138
government officials, land owners, priests, settlers in border regions- 144

18,632 detained people are being kept in the western region of the Ukraine and Belarus [10,685 are Poles]

They include:
former officers- 1207
former intelligence officers of the police and gendarmerie 5141
spies and saboteurs- 347
former land owners, factory owners and government officials- 465
members of various counter-revolutionary and resistance organisations and other counter-revolutionary elements- 5345
escapees- 6127

In view of the fact that all are hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority, the USSR NKVD considers it necessary:
[1] To instruct the USSR NKVD that it should try before special tribunals:
[a] the cases of the 14,700 former Polish officers, government officials,land owners, police officers, intelligence officers, gendarmes, settlers in the border regions and prison guards being held in prisoner-of-war camps;
[b] together with the cases of 11,000 members of various counter-revolutionary organisations of spies and saboteurs, former land owners, factory owners, former Polish officers, government officials, and escapees who have been arrested and are being held in the western provinces of the Ukraine and Belarus and apply to them the supreme penalty: shooting.

[2] Examination of the cases is to be carried out without summoning those detained and without bringing charges, the statements concerning the conclusion of the investigation and the final verdict should be as follows:
[a] for persons being held in prisoner-of-war camps, in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the USSR NKVD;
[b] for arrested personnel in the form of certificates issued by the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR and the NKVD of the Belarus SSR.
[3] The cases should be examined and the verdict pronounced by a three person tribunal consisting of comrades Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov.

People's Commissar for the Internal Affairs of the USSR
L Beria

[Signed by: Stalin, Voroshilov, Molotov, Mikoyan, Kalinin and Kaganovich]

dimasorokine

09-21-2007, 06:39 AM

Look again at the the thread title:

"Aniversary Of Soviet Russians and Nazi Germans joining efforts to destroy Poland"

Shut up kid and go to bed. :bash:

Wow, this “Soviet Russian” took one look at the title and instantly felt horrible for what him and his grandparents did to you.

I was going to restrain myself from posting in this thread (mostly because I feel horrible), but I couldn’t resist…

Quite honestly, asking Russians to apologize and feel bad about everything that the NKVD, Stalin and the Soviet government did is not only pointless – but can actually be perceived as an insult to many Russians.

Why? Because Russians suffered most under this rule – and frankly apologizing for someone who killed and slaughtered your people in much, MUCH greater numbers is something most people (this “Soviet Russian” included), aren’t going to be willing to do.

Furthermore, in a time such as WW2 – where death tolls, massacres and atrocities were as frequent as a single coalition soldier getting killed in Iraq – as horrible as it may sound: it’s the way things were done, to everyone.

-Dima

Mamont

09-21-2007, 06:58 AM

I do not understand what on earth you are trying to prove here. First of all i'm not prooving anything. I'm giving abit more detailed information, than simple rants. Second - this information is not intended to overthrow a polish religious belief in their own purity and a sinister plot by two dictators to crush "poor little" Poland. You know, we live in a word where all events are a results either straight or relative of another's. WW2 did not started out of the blue, because Hitler woke up in the morning at that day and said to himself: "Hey, it'll be cool if i rule the world. Let's do it".

- That "only relatively small number of prisoners was actually taken and killed"?
- That not "all officers and intelligence were targeted for extermination"?
- That this is wrong that "Polish history [describes it] as genocide", because only a fraction of detainees have been actually murdered? You're correct. Especially about term "genocide". Words have meaning and are intended to be used according to that. Genocide is used by polish side as way to simply put themselfes on the same level of suffering as jews, to victimize themselfes even more. And of course to equalise SU and Germany. Especially before those with little knowledge of polish history. Simply put - Poland fell victim to her own politics. She realised her mistakes too late. All that followed is a direct result of this. There is no chance, that fall of Poland could be viewed separatedly, without taking notion of previous events.

- That this is OK to conduct massive deportations because they "were members of families of prisoners, prostitutes, criminals, different refugees"? Yes. It's a neccessary way to ensure a peacefull life in occupied territories during troubled times without turning to last resort e.g. terror tactics. Not to mention the decrease a number of possible enemy allies in the upcoming war.

- That Soviet Union was very generous in offering amnesty to 210,559 people, or even passports? [This one is really good] You're worring me. How come "generous"? Practical. Simple as that. No need to make up things.

- That 165,000 Poles voluntarily and happily accepted SU citizenship?You have something to say that this was not true?

Some of my family members [...] had the "Nationality - Polish, Citizenship - Soviet Union" written into their internal passports Horror indeed. Anyway to what this is related to?

And I love this word "amnesty". Amnesty of what? Of nationality? It is known - mainly 54 or 58 article of Criminal Codex. For example from 22 september to 1 october 1939 28 polish soldiers and policemen were judged: for contrrevolutionary(terror and murder of red army soldiers) crimes - 20(13 were executed); robbery - 4, armed robbery - 3, raping - 1.

If Polish senior and junior officers, intelligence personnel, government officials, landowners, priests, factory owners, or even settlers and police were not part of Polish intelligentsia - I do not know who was. You might wat to re-read what Hermannek wrote. I answered to him. Specifically to the "all that was not an ignorant peasant" sentence. No need to heat up on your part. But i see, that polish members view intelligence as a innocents by default.

Let's read the basic document, which exists on a Russian website.
I have no proof of its authenticity, Autenticy of this document really is being discussed. Too many suspicios details. Anyway, they were described as enemies.

we can only go either by Polish sources (which you obviously reject by definition) Hm, you're starting to get really funny. "Us or them" - i was right...