P51 Mustang ..

[timetraveller]

Would it be correct to say if it wasn't for the Engine that it was eventually fitted for the Mustang wouldn't have the Allure or Status that it has .. as
I remember reading an article on the Mustang featured in [ Combat Aircraft ] The Orignal engine intended for it ..if had been Used the Mustang wouldn't be remembered like it is today ..


Your thoughts .. if any

[grenadier07]

If I remember correctly the original Allison engine did provide good performance at lower altitudes but lacked power above 15 or 20,000 feet. So yeah it would probably be safe to say that if it hadn't been for the Rolls Royce Merlin engine the Mustang wouldn't have built the legend it has today.

[PrivatePyle]

The Allison was not as suited to high altitudes. That would have made its role as a long range escort fighter harder as it would have less performance at the altitude of the bombers it was protecting. The Allison was 100mph down speedwise at 30'000ft on the Rolls Royce.

The P51's legendary status for me comes from its escort dutys over Germany, it really took the fight to the Luftwaffe I think, if it had not of performed this role so awesomely I dont think it would have the allure it has, not for me anyway.

[grenadier07]

The combat reputation certainly helps but even if it hadn't been as good as it was from a pure looks standpoint the P-51D is right up there with the Spitfire as being one of the most beautiful planes ever made.

[California Joe]

Who cares? It was a brilliant and beautiful aircraft. Thankfully the engineers figured out the best engine for that particular airframe to make it high performance. The Rolls Royce Merlin engines happened to make it great. Why not, they had a great track record with virtually every front line British plane at the time. The engines were built by Packard under lease from Rolls Royce.

"Standard engine for the P-5ID was the liquid-cooled, l2-cylinder, Packard-built, Rolls-Royce Merlin V-1650-3 or -7 developing 1,400 hp at take-off. The original Mustangs were fitted with the low-altitude rated Allison engine, but as the possibilities of the Mustang as a high-altitude fighter became realized, it was decided to fit a Merlin engine. For this purpose, four Mustang Mark Is were sent to Rolls-Royce for use as development aircraft, AL963, AL975, AM203 and AM208. They had Merlin 61 series engines installed with a frontal radiator, in addition to the normal ventral scoop. The Mustang/Rolls-Royce combination was an instant success and it was adopted as standard for all the Mustang variants. To increase the flow of engines, the Packard Car Company of America built the Merlin under license.

One weakness of the Merlin was that it could be put out of action by a single bullet, or piece of shrapnel, but this applied to all liquid-cooled engines, and did not detract from the Mustang's all-round capabilities. The aircraft was a welcome sight to the Fortress crews as they plunged deep into German skies during the daylight offensive against the Nazi armament industries."


Is this some sort of nationalistic dick measuring thread or something?

[PrivatePyle]

Is this some sort of nationalistic dick measuring thread or something?

Not for me, I'm a brit through and through, and last time I was at RAF Cosford I left a considerably larger pool of dribble next to the P-51 than the Spitfire.

[MetroN]

Wasn't the P-51 meant to be the successor/replacement for the Spitfire?

I believe I've heard or read it somewhere.

[LazyLob]

The Merlin did give the Mustang the power it needed. But it was an aircraft between two eras. The laminar flow wings were one notch up. Just sitting in the cockpit gives you the sense that times must have been changing. Plenty of sheet, polished dural. The joy stick and the throttle (pressure) controls were “new”. Even the wheel wells were double skinned with partially retractable fairings.

The simple, laminar flow wings tended to break into high speed stalls which sometimes benefited the pilot and by keeping the rear tank full it was used as a “get out of trouble” tactic in tight situations.

If those wings had better flaps ‘n slats….who knows. But then an even more grunty engine would have been needed.

[franjokluz]

I believe the wings and the bubble cockpit had something to do with its success. remove any of these features and it may have been an "ordinary" plane. maybe...

[timetraveller]

Interesting replies ...


I like the Mustang .. Stunning Aircraft ..

[Dean1962]

Wasn't the P-51 meant to be the successor/replacement for the Spitfire?

I believe I've heard or read it somewhere.
No. The Mustang was designed from the beginning as an American fighter. It was meant as a single engine, long distance, high altitude fighter, and the Allison engine did not really allow the airframe to do any of that. The British were very happy with the Spitfire, and went through 13 marks (IIRC) before it was finally replaced by jets. The Mustang was the result of great cooperation by engineers from both countries, but then again, the Merlin was probably the best engine of it's type on both sides of the war. Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, it was a no-brainer.

Dean.

However, I always get arguments from those who believe the greatest engines were the Pratt and Whitney Wasp and Double Wasp series. they may have a point, but the Merline powered aircraft are far nicer to look at.

[ex1cdo]

If those wings had better flaps ‘n slats….who knows. But then an even more grunty engine would have been needed.


I've often wondered why something like a Griffon 65 wasn't tried. Better power-to-weight ratio than the Merlin 60 series and more horsepower at altitude...

(Yes, there are some heavily modified Griffon engined Mustangs used in racing, but we don't need to go there.)

[Spare MolliG]

One must not forget what an advantage the K-14 gunsight gave to Mustang pilots:In WWII, early P-51Ds were equipped with with simple N-9 sights used light projected onto a glass. Later models were fitted with the sophisticated K-14 computing sight. Gyroscopes and magnetic electrical fields in the box were used with consideration of the speed of the projectiles, the speed and usual distance to the target. Data was reflected in images reflected on the glass, effectively calculating the target deflection. The pilot had to set the wingspan of the target, and use a throttle mounted control to keep the target centered. that made the pilot's hunting much easier. However, the pilot did have to set a knob to correspond with the wingspan of the enemy aircraft and, using a twist grip on the throttle handle, keep the foe centered in the circle of six diamond images and the center dot. [sic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunsight#Gyro_Gunsight

[el borracho]

There are a lot of "what if's" regarding WWII aircraft. Changing the Mustang's engine solidified it's reputation, but take the P-39 Airacobra. It was almost like a WWII version of the A-10. Basically an airframe built around a gun. With it's tricycle landing gear and engine placed in the middle of the fuselage, it was definitely a revolutionary design. However once the Army got ahold of it, they decided not to include the supercharger for the production version. The result was an airframe that was too heavy and too slow to be effective in the role in which it was designed. Too bad, that aircraft has beautiful lines. Luckily the Russians bought them in bulk from the British and Americans looking to unload their stock, and put them to good use panzer-busting on the eastern front.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8103/208405lowtv5.jpg

[Mastermind]

The Mustang has three basic qualities that made it a thoroughbred. First was the laminar airflow wings. The science on these wings was quite new and offered some really challenging design problems...no one really thought such a wing would be very useful, since it is terribly susceptible to ice and even bugs and dust...they had to be kept immacuately clean to achieve top performance...but moving the highest part of the wing toward the rear greatly reduced drag and gave the mustang much more speed-bang for the engine effort. But, putting such a wing into production on a front line fighter was a terriffic business and engineering risk. Fortunately, it worked as warranted.

Secondly, and perhaps equally important was the clever engineering devotion to fuel space. The US had become a leader in the engineering world for stamp forming of metals...sheet steel and aluminum. The Mustang fuel tanks and distribution system took advantage of every possible nook and cranny to stow fuel, giving the birds the long range that no other aircraft in the world possessed.

The third was her overall light weight and sturdy design. The North American engineers had managed to intuitively reduce weight and maintain a very strong airframe. They used every trick in the book, refusing to compromise her fighting ability, pilot safety and operational efficiency and yet, shaved every possible ounce of excess baggage. Every ounce saved on the airframe was devoted to carrying another ounce of fuel.

As for the Allison engine, I think, given enough time..even a few more months, the Allison people could have developed the fuel injection, super charging and power ratios to match or even exceed the Merlin. But, the logical step was based on need and the impractibility of "re-inventing the wheel"...the possible gain for the Allison would not have justified the cost, time and potential risks (it might not have worked, leading to even more time to "make it right"). It was the right decision as results proved. It should also be pointed out the Allisons were in big need in other aircraft in production at the time and there was a real risk of dampening production with resources jerked away at a critical time to further develop the engines for the Mustangs.

I think other aircraft of the day could have challenged the Mustangs for their glory spot...especially the new airframes coming out of Vultee, Republic and Grumman. But, North American Aviation was there first with the most and the best...and the rest is history.

[LazyLob]

I've often wondered why something like a Griffon 65 wasn't tried. Better power-to-weight ratio than the Merlin 60 series and more horsepower at altitude...

(Yes, there are some heavily modified Griffon engined Mustangs used in racing, but we don't need to go there.)

Maybe it was an established design, maybe too many engine add-ons. It was definitely the end of the power curve for the piston. The P51D was an “evo” and a fine one at that. On the flip side was the XP59. It was time to go onto the next step. Enter Lulu Belle and too many “ifs”. What an era!

[Mastermind]

Haloo, LL! What's breaking on those foreign shores? long time no see.

Yes, I have to agree the Mustang was the final design conclusion to the PE era...a few more fantastic designs were in the mill, but would not have lent themselves to the high number production lines of the day.

One has to wonder what could have been with the advent of CNC machining, fiber technology and titanium....but, it is highly doubtful performance improvements in the single digit percentages would have been exceeded.

[LazyLob]

:) Hi chum, nice to see you around! Same old, same old. Still got my phobias and grumpiness. How’s it in the Silver State, hot?

[orionhawk]

For me, the engine is a huge part of what makes the P-51 the Cadillac of the Skies. Specifically, the sound. I could sit and listen to a recording of a maneuvering Mustang, and be doing just fine, thank you.

Will never forget the "Cadillac of the Skies" scene in "Empire of the Sun".

My someday-ish dream is to have a real, or at least fully accurate replica, P-51D of my own. It's Item 3 on my "Lottery List". Right after "Pay off all debts" and "get pilot's license". Before "Get house"

[ex1cdo]

For me, the engine is a huge part of what makes the P-51 the Cadillac of the Skies. Specifically, the sound. I could sit and listen to a recording of a maneuvering Mustang, and be doing just fine, thank you.

Here you go (http://www.vintagewings.ca/rsrc/vwc/audio/p51.mp3), then....

[martinexsquaddie]

one came over my house last saturday
heading for shoream where the hurricane crashed and the pilot died

[orionhawk]

Here you go (http://www.vintagewings.ca/rsrc/vwc/audio/p51.mp3), then....

wootmany intenets to you, sir!woot

[Kilgor]

More importantly the merlin was thifty on fuel use, and with long rang drop tanks it could provide a fighters performance with a bombers range.

[wicked_hind]

Here's some info. about the Malcolm Hood equipped Mustangs.

http://www.aerofiles.com/malcolm-hood.html

[StrykerLead]

No. The Mustang was designed from the beginning as an American fighter. It was meant as a single engine, long distance, high altitude fighter, and the Allison engine did not really allow the airframe to do any of that. The British were very happy with the Spitfire, and went through 13 marks (IIRC) before it was finally replaced by jets. The Mustang was the result of great cooperation by engineers from both countries, but then again, the Merlin was probably the best engine of it's type on both sides of the war. Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, it was a no-brainer.

Dean.

However, I always get arguments from those who believe the greatest engines were the Pratt and Whitney Wasp and Double Wasp series. they may have a point, but the Merline powered aircraft are far nicer to look at.

The Mustang was designed as a result of a British Air Ministry specification - not to replace the Spit, but to provide the Royal Air Force with a fighter aircraft produced in the States (Supermarine and Hawker were a bit pushed at the time) North American refused to produce the P-40 under licence, saying they could build a better plane - 117 days later the Mustang prototype rolled out.

So not so much an aircraft to replace the Spitfire, more of something to supplement it. The eventual design proving to be one of the finest aircraft to ever fly - much like the mighty Spit. Similar story for the Spitfire Mk IX - only a stopgap - but ultimately a superb version of that classic fighter.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Would it be correct to say if it wasn't for the Engine that it was eventually fitted for the Mustang wouldn't have the Allure or Status that it has .. as
I remember reading an article on the Mustang featured in [ Combat Aircraft ] The Orignal engine intended for it ..if had been Used the Mustang wouldn't be remembered like it is today ..

Your thoughts .. if any
I’d say it would have had the same allure and status eventually. I’m not sure why the Allison 1710 didn’t get a good two stage supercharger like the Merlin early on but I’m certain Allison and North American would have gotten the ball rolling a bit faster than they did anyway if the license built Packard Merlin somehow didn’t materialize. Maybe there later two stage 119 series used in the P-51J and F-82, roughly comparable to the Merlin, would have flown earlier say 43 or 44 but who knows?
No matter though, Allison had some very capable engineers and a multitude of very advanced 1710 options in the waiting. Heck, they even had a turbo compound test bed that pumped out near 3600Hp while the P-38 Lightning turbo 1710’s hadn’t even reached their design limits either. Something would have happened home grown fast I suspect.

What I do know is that the early Allison Mustangs were great aircraft in their own right and very mission capable at low to medium altitudes what with RAF photo recon and American A-36 statistics. I think the need for a high altitude, long range Mustang would have happened anyway albeit a year or so later with possibly a greater reliance on the very capable P-38 or an upgraded P-47 like the big wing N model perhaps developed early to fill the gap. Heck, the whole European front might have lasted another year or just been twice as harsh after Normandy what with the American daylight raids most likely having been withheld another year until proper escorts arrived.
Still, even with all that, an early P-51J with the high altitude Allison 119 would have been just as sexy and welcome help to the Jugs and Fork Tailed Devils.

It’s hard to imagine what sort of fighter a Griffon Mustang would have been with nearly 600 more cubic inches and 1000 more horsepower from an engine roughly the size and weight of the Merlin. (Note: later Merlins put out as much but were at the limit while the Griffon still had more room to grow) It would certainly have been one sexy brute looking something like a P-51H with a big five blade prop and gobs of performance to boot. I’d love to see it go up against a Super Corsair or the P-72.

edit.....

Sorry, I almost forgot about the CA-15, an Australian griffon powered Mustang lookalike… Here is what the Griffon stang may have looked like. I bet ground loops would have been commonplace with this torquey beast.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/CA-15.jpg

[vryhpyammoadded]

One has to wonder what could have been with the advent of CNC machining, fiber technology and titanium....but, it is highly doubtful performance improvements in the single digit percentages would have been exceeded.

A teaser for you...
http://cameronaircraft.com/images/P51g1B.jpg

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/kitspages/mustang.php

http://cameronaircraft.com/P51/cameron_aircraft.htm

http://www.cameronaircraft.com/P51/P51_proto.htm

[Mastermind]

A teaser for you...
http://cameronaircraft.com/images/P51g1B.jpg

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/kitspages/mustang.php

http://cameronaircraft.com/P51/cameron_aircraft.htm

http://www.cameronaircraft.com/P51/P51_proto.htm

That just warms the whole of my heart...what a beauty. I see the performance data indate a speed of about 400 mph even with the 1450 hp turbo prop. Fascinating...right up there with the original WWII Mustangs. The physics limitations of the propellor starts becoming a massive factor at these speeds.

[PrivatePyle]

one came over my house last saturday
heading for shoream where the hurricane crashed and the pilot died

A few summers ago a Lancaster came over my house pretty low, I was most impressed by the din.

[vryhpyammoadded]

That just warms the whole of my heart...what a beauty. I see the performance data indate a speed of about 400 mph even with the 1450 hp turbo prop. Fascinating...right up there with the original WWII Mustangs. The physics limitations of the propellor starts becoming a massive factor at these speeds.
Well, one could get some exotic tech like supersonic scimitar blade propellers for that extra 100 mph but that would annoy every-puking-one for 30 square miles everywhere you cruise shaking china off the shelves, shattering picture frames , killing chickens, turning milk cows sour, the premature births, not to mention rattling the pilot’s teeth out. It would be a fun technologic anachronism to fly. The lawsuits would be glorious!

[ex1cdo]

A few summers ago a Lancaster came over my house pretty low, I was most impressed by the din.

The only thing that sounds better than a Merlin is a bunch of Merlins.

Hamilton, Ontario, Canada: 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain. The Canadian Warplane Heritage's Hurricane, Spitfire (on loan) and Lancaster were accompanied by a Mosquito from the UK. Now that was something to see and hear!

Sadly, the CWH Hurricane was destroyed in a hangar fire in 1993. The Mosquito stalled, spun and crashed in Manchester in 1996 and the crew were killed.

[Mastermind]

The only thing that sounds better than a Merlin is a bunch of Merlins.

Hamilton, Ontario, Canada: 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain. The Canadian Warplane Heritage's Hurricane, Spitfire (on loan) and Lancaster were accompanied by a Mosquito from the UK. Now that was something to see and hear!

Sadly, the CWH Hurricane was destroyed in a hangar fire in 1993. The Mosquito stalled, spun and crashed in Manchester in 1996 and the crew were killed.
I expect someone will garner one of the last Hurris and Mossies and take carbon fiber plugs off them for preservation of the shapes for all future generations as they did for the Mustangs. These bits of technology and the history that goes with them are as important, in my estimation, as any painting or sculpture throughout history.

A friend of mine, now past, built museum quality 1/3 scale models of WWI aircraft, complete with exact scale replica engines in them...he was a genius who placed his aircraft in the hands of his drug adict son when he passed...the models were sold off for mere pennies on the dollar and I lost track of them...I almost cried.

[wilhelm]

There are a lot of "what if's" regarding WWII aircraft. Changing the Mustang's engine solidified it's reputation, but take the P-39 Airacobra. It was almost like a WWII version of the A-10. Basically an airframe built around a gun. With it's tricycle landing gear and engine placed in the middle of the fuselage, it was definitely a revolutionary design. However once the Army got ahold of it, they decided not to include the supercharger for the production version. The result was an airframe that was too heavy and too slow to be effective in the role in which it was designed. Too bad, that aircraft has beautiful lines. Luckily the Russians bought them in bulk from the British and Americans looking to unload their stock, and put them to good use panzer-busting on the eastern front.


It also had a propellor shaft that had to be carefully balanced due to it's length ...... and of course sitting in front of an engine did nothing for pilot survival during crash landings, particularly in a ground attack plane..p-)

[perdurabo]

A teaser for you...
http://cameronaircraft.com/images/P51g1B.jpg

fugly :cantbeli:
this is how mustang should look:
http://www.aviation-art.net/louIV.jpg