How to bring back jobs to America?

[vinny_121_ND]

As we know, Americans and Canadians are having their jobs outsourced elsewhere in this competing world for more profit and savings for the giant corporations. Yesterday, a GM car plant was shut down in Oshawa.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070926/UAW_GM_070926/20070926?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Does anyone want to share ideas on
1) What are the reasons for the shift in research/manufacturing, and off-shore move?
2) what could bring back jobs to north america?
3) What could America do to compete globally?

My ideas to 1) more laws on pollution and dumping here, and cheaper to produce products overseas
2) I was thinking about giving corporations tax breaks help if they keep jobs in america, but I'm not sure if that is good enough.
3) Still looking for some insight.

I'm not an economist, but these are real issues that are affecting a lot of families today, and I hope things get better.

[LaoSexMachine]

Dollar a day wage, no benefits, and living standards like those in China and India.

[0rphie]

As we know, Americans and Canadians are having their jobs outsourced elsewhere in this competing world for more profit and savings for the giant corporations. Yesterday, a GM car plant was shut down in Oshawa.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070926/UAW_GM_070926/20070926?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Does anyone want to share ideas on
1) What are the reasons for the shift in research/manufacturing, and off-shore move?
2) what could bring back jobs to north america?
3) What could America do to compete globally?

My ideas to 1) more laws on pollution and dumping here, and cheaper to produce products overseas
2) I was thinking about giving corporations tax breaks help if they keep jobs in america, but I'm not sure if that is good enough.
3) Still looking for some insight.

I'm not an economist, but these are real issues that are affecting a lot of families today, and I hope things get better.
Man, we have such a low unemployment rate so it became close to impossible to find decent workers. I am looking for a person to work for me know and decent people ask for astronomical salaries. we need more people to compete for jobs not more jobs.

[Ordie]

Man, we have such a low unemployment rate so it became close to impossible to find decent workers. I am looking for a person to work for me know and decent people ask for astronomical salaries. we need more people to compete for jobs not more jobs.

I agree.

What we lack is living wage jobs.
We either have service sector jobs that barely make a real salary, no heath benefits, and retirement

or

Jobs that pay high wages, full of fringe benefits and IPOs.
Very few entry-level middle income jobs enough to buy a home. (unless you're willing to move to Las Vegas or Pheonix.)

Some ideas:

Universal cradle to grave medical benefits.
Free university and trade education for Veterans and thier dependents.
21st Century New Deal to renovate the infrastructure
Raise k-12 teacher's income to +50K (Get the English Lit. Graduate students out of working at Starbucks and into the classrooms)
Eliminate protectionist barriers and allow more international investment.
Reduction of corporate taxes to encourage investment.
Fix immigration policy
Develop strong emphasis on science, technology and engineeringI'm just thowing out some ideas that may or may not work, but its someting to think about.

[ronnieraygun]

The question was about the needs of Canada and the US, not Orhpie's own needs for his small business and the fact that he has to compete for good talent just the same. This is already a competitive society and there are people competing for good jobs at a level which is arguably very intense compared to other countries which are institutionally classist by nature and reserve the good jobs not for the best but for cousins and family members of those who have some dough.

I will concede for you, however, that the job market is rife with people with a tremendous sense of entitlement. This would obviously beguile both of us. If I may speculate, it sounds like you're in IT.

For the question, the manufacturing base here has been going away since at least the '60s, when someone IIRC first coined the term "service economy," which describes where we are at now to a large extent. It continues. I lived in St. Paul, MN for a while and their Ford plant is on the way out. I'm surprised it and the plant Vinny mentioned lasted as long as they did.

My cheap two cents about the questions:

1. It's cheaper. The American place where I contract made a decision to pull out of Australia to go to Malaysia because they could get multi-language support for cheaper. The Americans themselves will probably farm everything else overseas within several years. We even did it with that whole special visa program, having industry step up and claim a big skills gap to bring in all these foreign code writers. You mean to tell me we could not have convinced a couple thousand pizza delivery driving philosophy majors to take up coding and fill in the gap?
2. More service jobs in different areas where there is an advantage to do it here and not there.
3. Focus education on training on more practical real world here-and-now applications. Emphasize mobility and continuing education (remember how people thought Reagan was stupid because they asked him what to do about poor people in the Rust Belt...he said they should move to Florida or Texas or other boom states at that time...was he wrong?) Reinforce a culture in the workplace of shared responsibility. Get rid of this ghetto-assed every man for himself attitude amongst American corporate leadership. You're not competitive when your CEOs earn a gazillion times more than your average grunt and then you see them splurging on gold toilet seats and getting thrown in jail. Like it or not, American service industries have already been maintaining their competitive edge by relocating for some time to small towns out in the middle of nowhere for tax and real estate advantages and for a cheaper, eager labor force. Also, most American leadership STILL does not reward big picture thinking and foreign language skills. You can't compete internationally if you can't communicate with others or at least be hip to their world. There's nothing that makes you cringe more than seeing your office get a visit from smart, skinny, clever folks from all around the world getting yelled at by some stubborn fat woman fuming rehydrated onion product from Burger King in such a hamfisted way that they wonder what they're even doing at your office or why they had to come to the US in the first place.

The unemploment rate? Forget it. Most people can accept the fact that it is a doctored, artificial number that makes various state/local/federal government entities in the US look good but it's not the real picture.

Orphie, if you want even more competition for the same jobs it just drives wages down which might appear good to you, but the social contract continues to be broken down to a point at which you will be asking the same question every five years.

In terms of the question, Ordie's the man. At current conditions our kids will be working in a call center for 7 dollars an hour and we'll be paying for it.

[ronnieraygun]

I agree.

What we lack is living wage jobs.
We either have service sector jobs that barely make a real salary, no heath benefits, and retirement

or

Jobs that pay high wages, full of fringe benefits and IPOs.
Very few entry-level middle income jobs enough to buy a home. (unless you're willing to move to Las Vegas or Pheonix.)

The shrinking middle class. Indeed. Although from a workerbee perspective the moving is something you have to do, I personally think in our perfect world it's ridiculous.



Some ideas:

Universal cradle to grave medical benefits.
Free university and trade education for Veterans and thier dependents.
21st Century New Deal to renovate the infrastructure
Raise k-12 teacher's income to +50K (Get the English Lit. Graduate students out of working at Starbucks and into the classrooms)
Eliminate protectionist barriers and allow more international investment.
Reduction of corporate taxes to encourage investment.
Fix immigration policy
Develop strong emphasis on science, technology and engineeringI'm just thowing out some ideas that may or may not work, but its someting to think about.

-Sounds like good ideas. I don't think the reduction of corporate taxes would actually work as planned, given pre-Sarbanes-Oxley history of how they spend windfalls as an example.
-I think half the reason, if not more so, that English Lit students are where they are at is because they feel they are too good to teach high school. I've seen this in action and am convinced it's true.

Great thoughts as always, Ordie...thank you.

[Ordie]

-I think half the reason, if not more so, that English Lit students are where they are at is because they feel they are too good to teach high school. I've seen this in action and am convinced it's true.

.

The problem with teaching as a profession is the lack of a competitive wage they offer coupled with the barriers of entry.

The problem in public education in the US: people expect best, but are not willing to invest through increased taxes or bonds.

[Freibier]

Put all ze unemployed in ze border guard

[doug411]

Tiny little bit of protectionism for other countries to catch up with wages.

[noname]

The problem with teaching as a profession is the lack of a competitive wage they offer coupled with the barriers of entry.

The problem in public education in the US: people expect best, but are not willing to invest through increased taxes or bonds.

What do you mean not willing to invest. Where I live I have no choice when it comes to tax increases to fund things. The problem lies in the local, state, and federal governments pissing away tax dollars on stupid projects.

[mohica]

Dollar a day wage, no benefits, and living standards like those in China and India.

Don't forget unions have helped kill US labor. Plus, if you really want to stop it, our gov't needs to grow some nads and tariff US imports like our exports are tariffed in other countries. Also, QUIT SHOPPING AT WAL-MART AND DEMANDING CHEAPER AND CHEAPER PRODUCTS!!

[Ordie]

Don't forget unions have helped kill US labor. Plus, if you really want to stop it, our gov't needs to grow some nads and tariff US imports like our exports are tariffed in other countries. Also, QUIT SHOPPING AT WAL-MART AND DEMANDING CHEAPER AND CHEAPER PRODUCTS!!

Ideally that is the way to go.
In reality, after paying for the high costs of health care, housing, fuel, education etc...you have no choice but to go to Walmart to survive.

In regards to Unions:
Without unions we would not have a weekend, overtime pay, 40 hour workdays, safety standards, minimum wages, and a middle class.

Since the demise of the unions since the 1980's a correletion can be made with the dropping of living wages and benefits for the middle class.

Therefrore it is not surprising that the last bastion of the Middle Class are unionized public employees, who earn living wages, health benefits and retirement pensions.

[ronnieraygun]

Yeah, I really don't agree. I don't think higher teacher salaries would actually do the trick. It would still be a vulvatocracy of bitter women catfighting while a handfull of administrators make all the money and screw up policy.

Also, Americans actually pay quite a bit for education, but it still does not work. Local property taxes. Yet, the local school boards/superintendents/whomever continue to spend on stupid stuff. You know what it's like to see your retired parents barely able to afford property taxes to fund the local education district?

The kids certainly are not getting any smarter and the schools somehow don't have enough money. I think the conclusion that we should throw more money into education is somewhat misleading. Let's spend it better instead of spending more. What happened to Vo-tech in this country? If we would have not disdained it as something for burnouts to do in woodshop we could have touched on industry-standard processes and certifications for kids to become aware of...Private industry should chip in more so the kids can learn about ISO this-and-that, basic CAD, code-writing, hardware, networking, etc.


I think it's popular to pick on unions, but too easy. They are the folks who brought you an 8 hour day and a 40 hour work week, more or less.


I'm glad someone brought out the huge trade imbalance, though. Railroad and trucking stocks might be somewhat high because of all those shipping containers full of plastic shovels going to Hell-Mart, but I don't think it bodes all that well for us.

[oldsoak]

Heres afew thoughts-
- tax breaks for those who invest in US jobs and manufacturing.
- plus a little bit of patriotism - People need to look at a product and ask if its keeping them or a fellow US citizen in a job.
- someone needs to look at where the majority of consumer spending is and if benefits the US. If its going on stuff bought in from overseas that can be made in the US under US labour laws and pay US wages, then a little subsidy or tariff may be in order

[Thor]

Protectionism never works and it's counterproductive. And since it's not in the interest of consumers, corporations, nor political leaders it won't be implemented.

You people will soon face open borders and a pre-union with Mexico and Canada. Lots of people will compete for unskilled jobs and, with increasing prosperity down south, skilled jobs as well.

[11 Bravo]

Yeah, I really don't agree. I don't think higher teacher salaries would actually do the trick. It would still be a vulvatocracy of bitter women catfighting while a handfull of administrators make all the money and screw up policy.

Also, Americans actually pay quite a bit for education, but it still does not work. Local property taxes. Yet, the local school boards/superintendents/whomever continue to spend on stupid stuff. You know what it's like to see your retired parents barely able to afford property taxes to fund the local education district?

The kids certainly are not getting any smarter and the schools somehow don't have enough money. I think the conclusion that we should throw more money into education is somewhat misleading. Let's spend it better instead of spending more. What happened to Vo-tech in this country? If we would have not disdained it as something for burnouts to do in woodshop we could have touched on industry-standard processes and certifications for kids to become aware of...Private industry should chip in more so the kids can learn about ISO this-and-that, basic CAD, code-writing, hardware, networking, etc.


I think it's popular to pick on unions, but too easy. They are the folks who brought you an 8 hour day and a 40 hour work week, more or less.


I'm glad someone brought out the huge trade imbalance, though. Railroad and trucking stocks might be somewhat high because of all those shipping containers full of plastic shovels going to Hell-Mart, but I don't think it bodes all that well for us.



First off - cradle to grave government health care is BS - I am aghast you would utter such filth.

Second ; Sure unions are popular to 'pick on'. I grew up on the east coast. I experianced what unions could and did do to jobsites...you know , don't work to fast or you'll f#ck yourself , and the whole Not my job syndrome.
I do on occasion work with union trades here in south central USA. For the most part I have found them as good as any person , but they have a largess of yellow dogs in their midst that love to milk work , be obstructionist to any non union work etc etc. Some of my friends from Michigan lament stories of their parents whom work for Post & Kellog where so many union workers sleep on the job and flat out avoid work.
I won't even detail stories my youngest brother has related to me of his on the job eye oepners in the NJ Transit system.
There was a time when this nation needed unions and they worked. That time has sadly passed.

Thirdly ; Education is the real bugger. I work in a skilled trade environment that does require alot of muscle . I have seen in the past couple years a few dozen people come and go :
1) because they were flat out lazy
2) absolutely dumb as a box of rocks
3) could not pass a piss test for love or money
4) command of english and basic math...near non existant
I tried to teach one fellow how to use a tape measure ... he was not capable of retaining or wanting to that simple function.

If my company found an illegal whom could use good english skills and was not dumb as a box of rocks and would work they would be tempted to find a way to hire same. I worked with an Iranian born fellow some years ago - he was brilliant on paper , but when it came to physical application with tools... he was totally inept.
Places like walmart suck major schlong !!. I refuse to shop in those places filled with absolute cheap quality import junk. Wrenches that bend/break , plastic crap that falls apart , and now lead tainted childrens toys.
We all know how much asian and some eastern european industries are not quagmired in environmental laws and government 'red tape'.

[ronnieraygun]

First off - cradle to grave government health care is BS - I am aghast you would utter such filth.

I never said anything about health care. Are you sure you were not reading someone else's thoughts, man? I don't "utter filth" unless she likes that kind of talk. p-)

Thanks for your thoughts on the unions. I think a lot of people would reach the same conclusions for very valid reasons.

[perdurabo]

Does anyone want to share ideas on
1) What are the reasons for the shift in research/manufacturing, and off-shore move?


My ideas to 1) more laws on pollution and dumping here, and cheaper to produce products overseas

oh boy even China has stricter pollution rules for cars than USA, they are sucking fuel more than Paris sucks semen... also interior is **** quality. Produce better things thats all.

[wotsnext]

Stop training lawyers..........

[vinny_121_ND]

A read an article that Americans should work harder, and stop watching tv. That should be a start to how we can compete globally.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/22/news/economy/lazy_american_workers.fortune/index.htm?section=money_topstories

I still have no idea on how to bring back jobs to north america though. That's the million dollar question of the day.

[Satellite Weapon]

Stop offshoring There have been too many conferences to train American companies in outsourcing and to specifically encourage the exportation of jobs to Beijing Why should every kid born in America be stuck with $35,000 in debt -- when we can just outsource it and allow India, Saudi Arabia and China to hold the US economy by the balls. American companies no longer have any loyalty, they want to make a quick buck and want to move work wherever labor is cheapest Outsourcing and ultra-capitalism are starting to take their toll on the US economy we now have a wage deficit, a budget deficit, an accounts deficit, a trade deficit It saves money in the short run that's why we're outsourcing NASA to India
http://static.flickr.com/102/290507227_129bcafd86_m.jpg
American Astronut : 'New Delhi we have a problem'
Automated Arjun-Raj : I'm sorry our call centers are busy, please hold


Port security arrangements in the US was almost offshored to a bunch of Arabs in Dubai
Hunting, capturing or killing Binladen has also been outsourced.
If outsourcing is so f**king good, we should outsource congress and the presidency next.

[Van Gogh]

Sooner or later the entire american economy will be shared by so many hands the hands with the most shares will just claim america, and the only thing we'll be able to do is cry about it.

I'm personally against outsourcing. Americans are losing jobs as it is besides having to worry about paying for a 100 dollar pair of foreign sneakers.

Its not a happy time in America.

[StukaJr]

Goods produced in the US cost more because of the Employment Rights, safety standards and standing by their products - or so it used to be... Why enforce FDA rules when Imports do not apply by the same scrutiny standards?

My solutions are:

Apply the same import guidelines as US manufactured goods
Enforce Axis of Evil worker's rights
Flip over the product, read the label, see "China", imagine buying replacement for the same product 9 months down the line - put it down and look for something made in the Countries that enforce Minimum Wage...

My made in China vacuum cleaner has burnt out its motor 9 months into its existence - we are still using 30+ year ElectroLux that my girlfriend had when we moved in together... The only repair that was done to it was to replace the cord. It's just one of the many things that broke in my household that I switched back to the original item it meant to replace... This is officially "Generation Crap" or "Pay and Pay again".

[Rifleman]

I think the solution is to reclaim our Goverment;

These hypocritical, self-absorbed bastards we call our elected officials, who call themselves "Progressives" want to go back to a ruling class - them - and a ruled class - US.

We Americans are the most productive work force in the world and if you look into it, really look into it, the U.S.A. is the best place in the world to do business but IMO the assholes are selling us out during lunch meetings at the Council on Foreign Relations.

The other nations around the world were formed by history, our's by RADICAL thinkers who created that reasoned and well written document we call the Constitution of the United States of America, the Bill of Rights.

And while I am at it, how does America regain it's standing in the world? Simple, start acting like America.

[Rifleman]

P.S.

I found a great place to buy American made goods that will last several life times... garage sales and antique shops.

[ViktorNavorski]

Regarding taxes...this is from a online tradings blog

There will be a lot of debate in the next few years over taxes. Some tax cuts expire in 2010, I think, and two--the 15% tax on capital gains and 15% tax on dividends-- have been extended for at least two years. People get all exercised about taxes with the fat cats not paying their share (actually 5% of the taxpayers pay about 50% of the taxes) or somebody yelling about taxes killing them.

So when things get complicated, I go looking for simplicity. And found it. I have long held the premise that the higher the tax rate, the lower the productivity. And I am right--nine times out of ten. Forbes (another unabashed commercial for the best business magazine) has compiled the Tax Misery and Reform Index. Basically, it takes a countries various tax rates and adds them up. The components are:

-Corporate Income Tax
-Personal Income Tax
-Wealth Tax
-Employer Social Security
-Employee Social Security
-Value Added Tax or Sales Tax

Obviously, the higher the number, the higher the misery index. And the winner is FRANCE with a misery index of 166.8. Rounding out the top ten are:

Belgium
Sweden
Italy
Spain
Argentina
Greece
Germany
Brazil

Not exactly economic powerhouses. There is one surprise as the list above totals only to nine. The country that is actually Number 2 in the Misery Index is, and this is a total surprise, is China. Forbes says China is up there because 'of its extraordinry social security and pension rates.' I don't want to appear too cynical but China may have high rates but, in reality, nobody pays them. Just a guess. But the bottom line is that the countries with the highest tax rates are pretty much economic basket cases. One could argue about Sweden and, while certainly not a basket case, it is not an economic powerhouse.

So if the top ten in taxes are not economic powerhouses, one would think the bottom ten would be and so let's take a look.

The top ten, with number 1 having the lowest misery index, and then so on are:

-United Arab Emirates
-Hong Kong
-Singapore
-Russia
-Taiwan
-South Africa
-Indonesia
-India
-USA (Texas)
-South Korea

Some pretty good economies and some with real potential like Indonesia, South Africa and Russia. Direct links between taxes and growth are difficult because there are a lot of other variables. But as one of my bosses put it, if the numbers go your way, use them.

And I will. Lower taxes make for stronger economies.

And one final note. Please note that USA (Texas) is number 9 in lower taxes. USA (New York) was number 13 in higher taxes. Which means if you live in New York and want to lower your taxes, move. Welcome to the Lone Star State.

[50lidu5]

How to bring back jobs to America?

Easy, Vote Ron Paul.

[ElHombre]

1) What are the reasons for the shift in research/manufacturing, and off-shore move?

Easy enough. It's cheaper.


2) what could bring back jobs to north america?

There's going to have to be a series of incentives needed for that. Health care is going to be number 1. Like it or not, some form of universal health care is going to emerge in the US simply because no one else can afford it and Americans can't afford to be without it, either. There's also going to have to be some form of tax reform. Businesses are going to need to be persuaded that hiring Americans is in their company's best interests. There's also a diplomatic angle as well. All those Asian countries are going to have to undertake massive labor reforms.


3) What could America do to compete globally?

Education, education, and more education. Which is a problem because higher education is getting increasingly out of reach for many Americans.

[Thor]

There are so many incorrect assumptions in this thread that I don't know if it's worth it. :)

[Noble713]

There are so many incorrect assumptions in this thread that I don't know if it's worth it. :)

x2. Economies change over time. A few hundred years ago virtually everyone on the planet was employed in agriculture. Today in the US farming makes up less than 5% of the workforce, but you don't hear people screaming "Bring back farming jobs!".


The unemploment rate? Forget it. Most people can accept the fact that it is a doctored, artificial number that makes various state/local/federal government entities in the US look good but it's not the real picture.

Nonsense. The statistics exist so that economic advisors can determine the best way to improve the economy. In my Econometrics class virtually all of our homework assignments invovled accessing the FRED database (http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/) to get data on GDP, unemployment, etc. REAL economists doing REAL work regularly access and rely on these statistics to make decisions. Using doctored stats is self-deception and would only lead to economic ruin, which completely negates the point of collecting data in the first place! If people aren't willing to use a statistical analysis to make their arguments but instead prefer personal anecdotal "evidence", then conclusive rational debate is impossible.

All people are really complaining about is the evaporation of the US manufacturing sector. It's a global economy, and it is not advantageous to produce everything domestically (just look at North Korea).


1) What are the reasons for the shift in research/manufacturing, and off-shore move?

Comparative advantage. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage)


2) what could bring back jobs to north america?

See above re: unemployment levels.


3) What could America do to compete globally?

Improve education. Abolish summer vacations for students (this was originally due to the high percentage of students who helped out on farms, that's no longer an issue). Bring discipline back into the classroom. Enforce accountability for teachers and administrators. Increase the focus on math, science, logic, and general life skills.

As our economy evolves, sectors of the economy will shrink and others will grow. Workers need to be re-educated quickly and easily so that labor is efficiently shifted from old sectors to new. Right now worker re-education in the US SUCKS. Granted a guy who has assembled cars for 20 years might not be eager to start a job as an electrician or something, but people really need to understand that rapid shifts in employment like this are going to become more and more common as the global economy continues to evolve.

Focus on the areas that America excels at: R&D, biotech, aerospace tech, advanced materials science, etc. The only sectors of the economy that should not be allowed to atrophy are national strategic assets: staple food production, energy generation, and the defense industry. Everything else can be bought from our trading partners, but you don't want to put yourself in a position where your people are starving and you are defenseless because your "allies" decided to turn on you. By contrast, if the country that makes squeeky rubber duckies and household furniture decides to turn on us....it's no big deal. We'll still have food + weapons so we can force the issue if need be.


Regarding taxes...this is from a online tradings blog

Belgium
Sweden
Italy
Spain
Argentina
Greece
Germany
Brazil

Not exactly economic powerhouses.

Germany has the third highest GDP in the world. Brazil is part of BRIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC). Like Brazil, both Spain and Italy have GDPs > $1 trillion dollars, and are in the top 10 GDP's in the world (in nominal terms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29)). In terms of PPP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29), Spain falls to #11. Clearly this guy doesn't know what the fvck he is talking about.

[vinny_121_ND]

thank you for your input.