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09-29-2007, 04:22 PM
Wednesday, Sep. 26, 2007

V-22 Osprey: A Flying Shame

By Mark Thompson

It's hard to imagine an American weapons program so fraught with problems that **** Cheney would try repeatedly to cancel it — hard, that is, until you get to know the Osprey. As Defense Secretary under George H.W. Bush, Cheney tried four times to kill the Marine Corps's ungainly tilt-rotor aircraft. Four times he failed. Cheney found the arguments for the combat troop carrier unpersuasive and its problems irredeemable. "Given the risk we face from a military standpoint, given the areas where we think the priorities ought to be, the V-22 is not at the top of the list," he told a Senate committee in 1989. "It came out at the bottom of the list, and for that reason, I decided to terminate it." But the Osprey proved impossible to kill, thanks to lawmakers who rescued it from Cheney's ax time and again because of the home-district money that came with it — and to the irresistible notion that American engineers had found a way to improve on another great aviation breakthrough, the helicopter.

Now the aircraft that flies like an airplane but takes off and lands like a chopper is about to make its combat debut in Iraq. It has been a long, strange trip: the V-22 has been 25 years in development, more than twice as long as the Apollo program that put men on the moon. V-22 crashes have claimed the lives of 30 men — 10 times the lunar program's toll — all before the plane has seen combat. The Pentagon has put $20 billion into the Osprey and expects to spend an additional $35 billion before the program is finished. In exchange, the Marines, Navy and Air Force will get 458 aircraft, averaging $119 million per copy.

The saga of the V-22 — the battles over its future on Capitol Hill, a performance record that is spotty at best, a long, determined quest by the Marines to get what they wanted — demonstrates how Washington works (or, rather, doesn't). It exposes the compromises that are made when narrow interests collide with common sense. It is a tale that shows how the system fails at its most significant task, by placing in jeopardy those we count on to protect us. For even at a stratospheric price, the V-22 is going into combat shorthanded. As a result of decisions the Marine Corps made over the past decade, the aircraft lacks a heavy-duty, forward-mounted machine gun to lay down suppressing fire against forces that will surely try to shoot it down. And if the plane's two engines are disabled by enemy fire or mechanical trouble while it's hovering, the V-22 lacks a helicopter's ability to coast roughly to the ground — something that often saved lives in Vietnam. In 2002 the Marines abandoned the requirement that the planes be capable of autorotating (as the maneuver is called), with unpowered but spinning helicopter blades slowly letting the aircraft land safely. That decision, a top Pentagon aviation consultant wrote in a confidential 2003 report obtained by TIME, is "unconscionable" for a wartime aircraft. "When everything goes wrong, as it often does in a combat environment," he said, "autorotation is all a helicopter pilot has to save his and his passengers' lives."

The Plane That Wouldn't Die

In many ways, the V-22 is a classic example of how large weapons systems have been built in the U.S. since Dwight Eisenhower warned in 1961 of the "unwarranted influence" of "the military-industrial complex." The Osprey has taken years to design, build, test and bring to the field. All that time meant plenty of money for its prime contractors, Bell Helicopter and the Boeing Co. As the plane took shape and costs increased, some of its missions were shelved or sidelined. And yet, with the U.S. spending almost $500 billion a year on defense — not counting the nearly $200 billion annually for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan — there's plenty of money for marginal or unnecessary programs. Pentagon reform and efficiency are far less of a cause among lawmakers today than during the years of Ronald Reagan's comparatively modest defense-spending boom. "Almost every program the U.S. military is now buying takes longer to develop, costs more than predicted and usually doesn't meet the original specifications and requirements," says Gordon Adams, who oversaw military spending for the Office of Management and Budget during Bill Clinton's Administration.

The Marine Corps likes to boast that it spends only a nickel out of every Pentagon dollar and makes do with cheaper weapons than the other services. The story of the V-22 belies that image: It's a tale of how a military service with little experience overseeing aircraft programs has wound up with a plane that may be as notable for its shortcomings as for its technological advances.

First, some history. Because Marines deploy aboard ships, the service's chiefs have always hungered for vertical lift — aircraft that could take off and land from small decks and fly far inland to drop off combat-ready troops. As the Marines' Vietnam-era CH-46 choppers became obsolete, commanders started to dream of an aircraft that would give them more options when considering an amphibious assault. The dreams intensified following the failed Desert One mission in 1980 to rescue U.S. hostages in Iran. In the course of the operation, three helicopters broke down, leading to an order to abort the entire endeavor, and a fourth chopper collided with a C-130 aircraft at a desert base, killing eight U.S. troops. That sent Pentagon bureaucrats hunting for a transport that could be used by all four military services and prevent another fiasco. Reagan, who took office the year after Desert One, began to pour money into the Pentagon, particularly for research and design into new weapons and combat systems. The Osprey was born.

Originally, the program was designed to churn out the first of more than 1,000 tilt-rotors in less than 10 years for $40 million each. But this was no conventional plane. The Osprey may cruise like an airplane, but it takes off and lands vertically like a helicopter. The technical challenge of rotating an airplane's wings and engines in midair led to delays, which in turn led to an ever higher price tag. As expenses rose, the Pentagon cut the number of planes it wanted to buy, which in turn increased the unit price. Citing rising costs, the Army abandoned the project in 1983.

That left the relatively tiny Marine Corps footing most of the bill for the project — the V-22 accounts for nearly 70% of its procurement budget — and overseeing a program larger and more technically challenging than any the service was accustomed to managing. Sensing weakness at the Pentagon, congressional supporters, largely from the V-22's key manufacturing states of Texas (Bell Helicopter) and Pennsylvania (Boeing), created the Tilt-Rotor Technology Coalition to keep the craft alive, despite Cheney's opposition. They were aided by nearly 2,000 V-22 suppliers, in more than 40 states, who pressured their lawmakers to stick with the program. And so, despite Cheney's doubts, the Osprey survived.

By 1993, as the Osprey program approached its 12th birthday and Bill Clinton became President, the Marines had spent $13 billion on the planes. None were ready for war. In 1991 one of the first V-22s crashed when taking off for its maiden flight — because of improper wiring. A second crash killed seven in 1992. The Clinton Pentagon stuck with the program through the 1990s, but in 2000 two more V-22s crashed, killing 23 Marines. With that, the Marines grounded the Osprey for 18 months.

Probes into the deadly 2000 crashes revealed that in a rush to deploy the aircraft, the Marines had dangerously cut corners in their testing program. The number of different flight configurations — varying speed, weight and other factors — flown by test pilots to ensure safe landings was reduced by half to meet deadlines. Then only two-thirds of those curtailed flight tests were conducted. That trend continues: while a 2004 plan called for 131 hours of nighttime flight tests, the Marines managed to run only 33 on the Osprey. Why the shortcuts? Problems with a gearbox kept many V-22s and pilots grounded. That meant many pilots lacked the hours required to qualify for night flying. Similarly, sea trials were curtailed because the ship designated to assist with Osprey tests could spare only 10 of the 21 days needed.

There's also been controversy over a sandstorm test for the craft. The V-22's tendency to generate a dust storm when it lands in desert-like terrain wasn't examined because "an unusually wet spring resulted in a large amount of vegetation that prevented severe brownouts during landing attempts," the Pentagon's top tester noted. But the program continued, albeit with a caution about the aircraft's ability to fly in dusty conditions.

The Engine-Failure Problem

After the 2000 grounding, Osprey pilots were told to fly less aggressively, which critics say is the only reason no V-22 has crashed since. "They keep talking about all the things it can do, but little by little its operations are being more and more restricted," says Philip Coyle, who monitored the V-22's development as the Pentagon's top weapons tester from 1994 to 2001. The V-22 can fly safely "if used like a truck, carrying people from one safe area to another safe area," he says. "But I don't see them using it in combat situations where they will have to do a lot of maneuvering."

The Marines contend that the V-22 is an assault aircraft and that no pilot who finds himself dodging bullets is going to fly it gently. "The airplane is incredibly maneuverable," says Lieut. Colonel Anthony (Buddy) Bianca, a veteran V-22 pilot. But the dirty little secret about an aircraft that combines the best features of an airplane and a helicopter is that it combines their worst features too. The V-22 can't glide as well as an airplane, and it can't hover as well as a helicopter. If a V-22 loses power while flying like an airplane, it should be able to glide to a rough but survivable belly-flop landing. Its huge, 19-ft.-long (5.7 m) rotors are designed to rip into shreds rather than break apart and tear into the fuselage. But all bets are off if a V-22 is flying like a helicopter, heading in or out of a landing zone, and its engines are disabled by enemy fire or mechanical malfunction.

As originally designed, the V-22 was supposed to survive a loss of engine power when flying like a helicopter by autorotating toward the ground, just as maple seeds do in the fall. Autorotation, which turns a normally soft touchdown into an very hard emergency landing, is at least survivable. It became clear, however, that the design of the Osprey, adjusted many times over, simply could not accommodate the maneuver. The Pentagon slowly conceded the point. "The lack of proven autorotative capability is cause for concern in tilt-rotor aircraft," a 1999 report warned. Two years later, a second study cautioned that the V-22's "probability of a successful autorotational landing ... is very low." Unable to rewrite the laws of physics, the Pentagon determined that the ability to perform the safety procedure was no longer a necessary requirement and crossed it off the V-22's must-have list. "An autorotation to a safe landing is no longer a formal requirement," a 2002 Pentagon report said. "The deletion of safe autorotation landing as a ... requirement recognizes the hybrid nature of the tilt-rotor."

Indeed it does, but that doesn't make the aircraft any safer. The plane's backers said that the chance of a dual-engine failure was so rare that it shouldn't be of concern. Yet the flight manual lists a variety of things that can cause both engines to fail, including "contaminated fuel ... software malfunctions or battle damage." The lone attempted V-22 autorotation "failed miserably," according to an internal 2003 report, obtained by TIME, written by the Institute for Defense Analyses, an in-house Pentagon think tank. "The test data indicate that the aircraft would have impacted the ground at a ... fatal rate of descent."

That prospect doesn't concern some V-22 pilots, who believe they'll have the altitude and time to convert the aircraft into its airplane mode and hunt for a landing strip if they lose power. "We can turn it into a plane and glide it down, just like a C-130," Captain Justin (Moon) McKinney, a V-22 pilot, said from his North Carolina base as he got ready to head to Iraq. "I have absolutely no safety concerns with this aircraft, flying it here or in Iraq."

Helicopter expert Rex Rivolo, who called the decision to deploy the V-22 without proven autorotation capability "unconscionable" in that confidential 2003 Pentagon study, declined to be interviewed. But in his report, Rivolo noted that up to 90% of the helicopters lost in the Vietnam War were in their final approach to landing when they were hit by enemy ground fire. About half of those were able to autorotate safely to the ground, "thereby saving the crews," Rivolo wrote. "Such events in V-22 would all be fatal."

Faced with killing the program — or possibly killing those aboard the V-22 — the Marines have opted to save the plane and have largely shifted responsibility for surviving such a catastrophe from the designers to the pilots. While the engineers spent years vainly trying to solve the problem, pilots aboard a stricken V-22 will have just seconds to react. But tellingly, pilots have never practiced the maneuver outside the simulator — the flight manual forbids it — and even in simulators the results have been less than reassuring. "In simulations," the flight manual warns, "the outcome of the landings varied widely due to the extreme sensitivity to pilot technique and timing." The director of the Pentagon's testing office, in a 2005 report, put it more bluntly. If power is lost when a V-22 is flying like a helicopter below 1,600 ft. (490 m), he said, emergency landings "are not likely to be survivable."

The Pea-Shooter Problem

While the aerodynamics of autorotation may be challenging for outsiders to grasp, a second decision — sending the V-22 into combat armed with only a tiny gun, pointing backward — is something anyone can understand. The Pentagon boasts on its V-22 website that the aircraft "will be the weapon of choice for the full spectrum of combat." That's plainly false — and by a long shot. Retired General James Jones, who recently led a study into the capabilities of the Iraqi security forces, is a V-22 supporter. But when he ran the Marines from 1999 to 2003, he insisted the plane be outfitted with a hefty, forward-aimed .50-cal. machine gun. "It's obviously technically feasible. We've got nose-mounted guns on [helicopter gunship] Cobras and other flying platforms, and I thought all along this one should have it too," he says.

The Marines saluted, awarding a $45 million contract in 2000 for the development of a swiveling triple-barreled .50-cal. machine gun under the V-22's nose, automatically aimed through a sight in the co-pilot's helmet. "All production aircraft will be outfitted with this defensive weapons system," the Marine colonel in charge of the program pledged in 2000. The weapon "provides the V-22 with a strong defensive firepower capability to greatly increase the aircraft's survivability in hostile actions," the Bell-Boeing team said. But the added weight (1,000 lbs., or 450 kg) and cost ($1.5 million per V-22) ultimately pushed the gun into the indefinite future.

So 10 V-22s are going to war this month, each with just a lone, small 7.62-mm machine gun mounted on its rear ramp. The gun's rounds are about the same size as a .30-06 hunting rifle's, and it is capable of firing only where the V-22 has been — not where it's going — and only when the ramp used by Marines to get on and off the aircraft is lowered. That doesn't satisfy Jones. "I just fundamentally believe than an assault aircraft that goes into hot landing zones should have a nose-mounted gun," Jones told TIME. "I go back to my roots a little bit," the Vietnam veteran says. "I just like those kinds of airplanes to have the biggest and best gun we can get, and that to me was a requirement." He doesn't think much of the V-22's current weapon: "A rear-mounted gun is better than no gun at all, but I don't know how much better."

The Marines say combat jets or helicopter gunships will shadow V-22s flying into dangerous areas. And backers say the V-22's speed will help it elude threats. It could, for example, zip into harm's way at more than 200 m.p.h. (320 km/h), convert to helicopter mode and then land within seconds. It could pause on the ground to deliver or pick up Marines and then hustle from the landing zone. Various missile-warning systems and fire-extinguishing gear bolster its survivability. If it is hit, redundant hydraulic and flight-control systems will help keep it airborne. Finally, Marines say, if the V-22 does crash, its crumpling fuselage and collapsing seats will help cushion those on board.

It's good that such protection is there. It's needed. For the V-22 continues to suffer problems unusual in an aircraft that first flew in 1989. In March 2006, for example, a just-repaired V-22 with three people aboard unexpectedly took off on its own — apparently the result of a computer glitch. After a 3?sec. flight to an altitude of 6 ft. (about 2 m), according to the V-22's flight computer, or 25 ft. (about 8 m), according to eyewitnesses, it dropped to the ground with enough force to snap off its right wing and cause more than $1 million in damage.

There's more. Critics have had long-standing concerns about the poor field of view for pilots, the cramped and hot quarters for passengers and the V-22's unusually high need for maintenance. A flawed computer chip that could have led to crashes forced a V-22 grounding in February; bad switches that could have doomed the aircraft surfaced in June. In March the Government Accountability Office warned that V-22s are rolling off the production line in Amarillo, Texas, and being accepted by the Marines "with numerous deviations and waivers," including "several potentially serious defects." An internal Marine memo warned in June that serious and persistent reliability issues could "significantly" reduce the aircraft's anticipated role in Iraq. V-22s built before 2005, the report said, are fully ready to fly only 35% of the time, while newer models, like those in Iraq, are 62% ready. But "sustained high-tempo operations in [Iraq]," the memo warns, could drive down the readiness rates for the newer V-22s.

Into Iraq

Soon enough, the marines will know if those warnings are on target. "My fervent desire is to get the V-22 into the fight as soon as we can," General James Conway, commandant of the Marines, said in March. "I think it's going to prove itself rapidly." But then he said something that stunned V-22 boosters: "I'll tell you, there is going to be a crash. That's what airplanes do over time." Conway is not alone. Ward Carroll, the top government spokesman for the V-22 program from 2002 to 2005, believes that six Ospreys, about 5% of the fleet, will crash during its first three years of operational flight. Carroll says new pilots flying at night and in bad weather will make mistakes with tragic consequences. So he's reserving judgment on the aircraft and suspects that many of those who will be climbing into the V-22 are too. "I'm still not convinced," he says — echoing comments made privately by some Marines — "that the Marine ground pounders are in love with this airplane."

A former F-14 aviator, Carroll likens the V-22 to another Marine favorite, the AV-8 Harrier jump jet. "The Harrier," he notes, "is actually a good analogy for the V-22." Like the AV-8, the V-22 is a radical aircraft crammed with compromises that may change combat forever. And like the AV-8, it may also kill a lot of Marines while doing little of note on the battlefield. Since 1971, more than a third of Harriers have crashed, killing 45 Marines in 143 accidents. But there's a critical difference between the two warplanes. Each Harrier carries a single pilot, nestled into an ejection seat with a parachute. But after all the debate about tilt-rotor technology — after all the vested interests have argued their case and all its boosters and critics have had their say — this much we know: within days, a V-22 will begin carrying up to 26 Marines into combat in Iraq, with no ejection seats — and no parachutes.

V-22 Osprey: A flying Shame (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1665835,00.html)

jonosk
09-29-2007, 04:43 PM
good read but it looks good, I hope it will do good ;)

sp2c
09-29-2007, 04:45 PM
is there a reason why the autorotation was cancelled?
well im sure there is but does anyone know what it is ... doesnt sound too smart!

other then that I think osprey is cool :)

bd popeye
09-29-2007, 04:53 PM
"The deletion of safe autorotation landing as a ... requirement recognizes the hybrid nature of the tilt-rotor."


Autorotation is a controlled crash landing that all helo pilots should be able to perform..



Autorotations are used in helicopters to perform POWER OFF
landings from altitude in the event of an engine failure. During an autorotation, the main rotor is not driven by a power plant, but by air flowing through the rotor disc bottom-up (imagine a windmill) while the aircraft is descending rapidly. About as much buoyancy is provided as a round parachute of the same diameter. The power required to keep the rotor spinning is obtained from the aircraft's potential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_energy) and kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy). An important contributing factor is the rotor's inertia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia). The descent is at a normal and familiar glide angle to a suitable landing spot assuming the flight plan stayed within gliding distance of a suitable landing spot.


I spent 5 years of my 20 years in Naval Avation in helo squadrons..We Never ever called a Helo a chopper.

Big Daddy Popeye answering questions for the "Navally Challenged"

Name Taken
09-29-2007, 05:08 PM
Ahh the V-22, this was one of my case studies for my thesis.

csqnsas
09-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Jus wait until they see action in Iraq.

No losses so far and the Helo's are doing well now too since the change of tactics.

nullterm
09-29-2007, 06:03 PM
Now the aircraft that flies like an airplane but takes off and lands like a chopper is about to make its combat debut in Iraq. It has been a long, strange trip: the V-22 has been 25 years in development, more than twice as long as the Apollo program that put men on the moon. V-22 crashes have claimed the lives of 30 men — 10 times the lunar program's toll — all before the plane has seen combat. The Pentagon has put $20 billion into the Osprey and expects to spend an additional $35 billion before the program is finished. In exchange, the Marines, Navy and Air Force will get 458 aircraft, averaging $119 million per copy.

"Will it work in combat?" questions aside, one V-22 is the same price as four C-130H's. Hope it's worth it.


http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=92
Unit Cost: C-130E, $11.9, C-130H, $30.1, C-130J, $48.5 (FY 1998 constant dollars in millions)

Ratamacue
09-29-2007, 06:05 PM
The biggest problem I see with the Osprey is simply its armament. Most of the other issues that are cited in articles like these were either fixed long ago, or are fairly insignificant glitches (common in any new aircraft) that are exploited to "prove" how unsafe or incapable the aircraft is.

I'm with Gen. Jones in that a nose-mounted MG should be integrated. I also wonder whether it would be possible to design a side-MG mount that somehow locks the firing mechanism when the barrel crosses into the path of the engine nacelle, at least while it's in a vertical position.

C.MAXIMUS
09-29-2007, 06:06 PM
I was not aware of such a negative image of the Harrier at USMC

MR.9/06
09-29-2007, 06:14 PM
It shouldn't be too hard to strap on a M-134 / GAU-2B/A on the sides. one ramp mounted gun doesn't provide enough firepower, and only covers the rear.

Ratamacue
09-29-2007, 06:16 PM
It shouldn't be too hard to strap on a M-134 / GAU-2B/A on the sides. one ramp mounted gun doesn't provide enough firepower, and only covers the rear.They don't want machineguns in the side doors because of the concern that gunners will accidentally hit the engine nacelles.

MR.9/06
09-29-2007, 06:27 PM
They don't want machineguns in the side doors because of the concern that gunners will accidentally hit the engine nacelles.

That would suck, but they should be able to make a system of some sort which will prevent that. And then again, I assume the most targets will be engaged while airborne so that means they're aiming down.

Chulo
09-29-2007, 06:37 PM
Autorotation is a controlled crash landing that all helo pilots should be able to perform..



I spent 5 years of my 20 years in Naval Avation in helo squadrons..We Never ever called a Helo a chopper.

Big Daddy Popeye answering questions for the "Navally Challenged"
how do u as cancel an autorotation? isnt that the normal tendency of the Helo to counter its main prop rotation? so if the V-22 happens to be hovering, then its natural tendency is to counter that direction its blades are moving in, and so enabling it to do a autorotation landing.. or do i have the mechanics of a auto rotation landing wrong?

sp2c
09-29-2007, 07:16 PM
how do u as cancel an autorotation? isnt that the normal tendency of the Helo to counter its main prop rotation? so if the V-22 happens to be hovering, then its natural tendency is to counter that direction its blades are moving in, and so enabling it to do a autorotation landing.. or do i have the mechanics of a auto rotation landing wrong?

If I remember correctly it requires the rotorblades to be moved into a certain angle ... I'm assuming removing this feature will remove the costs of the mechanism that does it (removes some weight) and testing of it

but this comes at the cost of crew safety, I think it's taking money out of your wallet and putting it in one of your pockets but I don't think that saying makes much sense in English :)
my guess is there will be an operational combat upgrade shortly after the first crews rotate back from Iraq "based on operational experience etc. blablabla." addint autorotation and a chin mounted chaingun

mingrady
09-29-2007, 08:23 PM
how i wish I own Bell stocks

tax money is the ultimate fat cow

Partial_Panel
09-29-2007, 08:43 PM
I was not aware of such a negative image of the Harrier at USMC

There isn't. What ol' Topgun Carroll failed to mention, is that most of those crashes were the old AV-8A, which went the way of the Dodo in 1985. As for "little of note" in combat; The AV-8B Harrier II proved its worth in desert storm, and then some. For the first 7 years, it did have a higher than normal incident rate (14:100,000 flt hours), but they're hardly dropping out of the sky.

As for the Osprey: Every dire prediction they're making about the aircraft could come true, I don't know. But they should at least give the damn thing a chance to prove itself, and stop making the Marines who fly it out to be some sort of fanatical kamikazes, who would rather sacrifice their own people, than their shiny new toy.

Give it a fair trial, then hang it:roll:

ViktorNavorski
09-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Don't know where it's from, but this came up in an earlier discussion of the Osprey and autorotation...

[...] Col. Nolan Schmidt who states very clearly that the freewheeling units that had been claimed to be removed early on in the development of the V-22 were in actuality, still installed in every Osprey that has ever flown. The nice thing about the V-22 is that it has two engines, which are interconnected. If one should fail, the aircraft can fly safely on one engine. If both engines should fail (Which is very rare), then it can glide down should it have sufficient forward airspeed. Also, if you have sufficient airspeed and one engine working, you can make a running landing with the nacelles at a 60-degree pitch (As recommended by the manufacturer). If you are at a low airspeed, high altitude hover, or a number of other situations and you lose both engines, then it is just not your day. That is not just in a V-22, that is in any rotary wing aircraft.

[...] Autorotation from a high hover is a limitation on most, if not all helicopters. The UH-1 has a performance chart, which shows that any autorotation attempted below certain airspeeds and at certain heights above the ground will most likely not be successful. Some people call this chart the “Dead Man’s Chart’. It is another situation where the pilot knows the risks but sometimes he/she just has to take them to complete the mission. People in the logging business who use helicopters, fly at very high hovers with little or no forward airspeed. They recognize that they are flying in a dangerous flight parameter most of the time and accept the risk as part of the job.

AlphaOneSix
09-29-2007, 09:06 PM
I also wonder whether it would be possible to design a side-MG mount that somehow locks the firing mechanism when the barrel crosses into the path of the engine nacelle, at least while it's in a vertical position.


Most helicopter gun mounts already do this, it would be trivial to do it for the Osprey.

KillerBD
09-29-2007, 09:12 PM
That prospect doesn't concern some V-22 pilots, who believe they'll have the altitude and time to convert the aircraft into its airplane mode and hunt for a landing strip if they lose power. "We can turn it into a plane and glide it down, just like a C-130," Captain Justin (Moon) McKinney, a V-22 pilot, said from his North Carolina base as he got ready to head to Iraq. "I have absolutely no safety concerns with this aircraft, flying it here or in Iraq."



Not gonna lie. That would be utterly AMAZZZZAAAZZING to see someone land the V-22 "like a C-130" and not destroy the aircraft/kill everyone on board (even if you had full engine power and fuel)....
(Look at picture below, and think real hard to yourself... How would you manage to land this like a regular airplane.... safely?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bb/CV-22_Osprey.jpg/800px-CV-22_Osprey.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/CV-22_Osprey.jpg)

sp2c
09-29-2007, 09:18 PM
Not gonna lie. That would be utterly AMAZZZZAAAZZING to see someone land the V-22 "like a C-130" and not destroy the aircraft/kill everyone on board (even if you had full engine power and fuel)....
(Look at picture below, and think real hard to yourself... How would you manage to land this like a regular airplane.... safely?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bb/CV-22_Osprey.jpg/800px-CV-22_Osprey.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/CV-22_Osprey.jpg)

Osprey can not land like that either

KillerBD
09-29-2007, 09:20 PM
Osprey can not land like that either

Yup, my point exactly (I hope you werent trying to correct me).

The huge props on that best would cause alot of headache/hazard/then death (in that order) for a pilot to land like that.

Ratamacue
09-29-2007, 09:26 PM
Not gonna lie. That would be utterly AMAZZZZAAAZZING to see someone land the V-22 "like a C-130" and not destroy the aircraft/kill everyone on board (even if you had full engine power and fuel)....
(Look at picture below, and think real hard to yourself... How would you manage to land this like a regular airplane.... safely?)I seem to recall that the blades are designed to bend/crumple (not shatter). In addition, the quote you're criticizing is probably referring to emergencies where one or both engines have failed and the aircraft won't be able to stay airborne. In which case, they can simply tilt the engines up so that the props aren't passing below the fuselage, and then glide it down and land it.

Let's see a helicopter do that in any situation.

sp2c
09-29-2007, 09:31 PM
Yup, my point exactly (I hope you werent trying to correct me).

The huge props on that best would cause alot of headache/hazard/then death (in that order) for a pilot to land like that.

I was trying to correct you ... I blame my english :)

you can't compare Osprey to a C130 though because it lands vertically, you cant compare it to Chinook either because of the extended range

Ratamacue
09-29-2007, 09:36 PM
I was trying to correct you ... I blame my english :)

you can't compare Osprey to a C130 though because it lands vertically, you cant compare it to Chinook either because of the extended rangeThe Osprey doesn't need to takeoff or land vertically. It's a STOVL aircraft like the Harrier, meaning that it can perform short runway takeoffs and landings. Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/v/2mZkFIASQRk

AlphaOneSix
09-29-2007, 09:40 PM
If the props strike the ground they are deigned to shred longitudinally. There is no "blade shrapnel" or anything, they don't fly apart and become tiny flying objects or pieces. Sort of like when you break a piece of bamboo, it stays together and rips lengthwise.

sinophile
09-29-2007, 09:47 PM
Article is b.s. The Chinook is the right basis for comparison here and the V22 blows it away.

The V22 flies 90 miles per hour faster. Think QRF mission.
Its refuelable. Think fewer forward operating bases.
V22 has a 1,000 mile range advantage.
V22 can fly more than 6,000 feet higher. Hindu kush mountains.
Its rate of climb is faster. Think fast exfil.

For a quick reaction force insertion or ex-filtration the V22 is faster, more versatile and less vulnerable than a helo.

Where's all that in the article?

Chulo
09-29-2007, 10:21 PM
Yup, my point exactly (I hope you werent trying to correct me).

The huge props on that best would cause alot of headache/hazard/then death (in that order) for a pilot to land like that.
just cause it cant land with its props foward dont mean its flawed .. especially when it does have to land its props are faced up. so to land like a C130 u would naturally assume it was doin it props up

nullterm
09-29-2007, 10:55 PM
Not gonna lie. That would be utterly AMAZZZZAAAZZING to see someone land the V-22 "like a C-130" and not destroy the aircraft/kill everyone on board (even if you had full engine power and fuel)....
(Look at picture below, and think real hard to yourself... How would you manage to land this like a regular airplane.... safely?)

You can land it, but you won't be taking off again for a while.

AlphaOneSix
09-29-2007, 10:56 PM
The Chinook is the right basis for comparison here and the V22 blows it away.

Before I tear your argument apart, I want to make sure you didn't mean the Sea Knight. It's silly to compare the V-22 to the CH-47, since the former is not replacing any of the latter.

The V-22 only "blows away" the CH-47 at the things you mention (which are not even all true), you conveniently leave out all the areas where the Chinook tears the Osprey a new one.

KillerBD
09-29-2007, 11:07 PM
The Osprey doesn't need to takeoff or land vertically. It's a STOVL aircraft like the Harrier, meaning that it can perform short runway takeoffs and landings. Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/v/2mZkFIASQRk

Okay.... The video pretty much showed a vertical take off.... As in the wings on the V-22 didn't do **** for it in helping the aircraft gain lift as it rolls down the length of the runway... Therefore it took off as if it were a helicopter...

Not real sure what you were trying to prove by posting this video... That the wheels on the V-22 can roll forward as it takes off...???

AlphaOneSix
09-29-2007, 11:17 PM
To be fair, helicopters don't have to take of or land vertically, either.

KillerBD
09-29-2007, 11:22 PM
x2 AlphaOneSix, glad someone else has some common sense.


I seem to recall that the blades are designed to bend/crumple (not shatter). In addition, the quote you're criticizing is probably referring to emergencies where one or both engines have failed and the aircraft won't be able to stay airborne. In which case, they can simply tilt the engines up so that the props aren't passing below the fuselage, and then glide it down and land it.

Let's see a helicopter do that in any situation.

Again look at the V-22..... Pretty sure it wont glide to well with no engine power... Then again maybe in your book lead bricks glide pretty well. I'm no V-22 pilot though, I am just making logical assumptions. Judging by the airframe of the V-22 it wouldn't work to well as a glider... Maybe I'm wrong

AlphaOneSix
09-29-2007, 11:50 PM
It glides like a helo and autos like a fixed-wing. ;)

Ratamacue
09-30-2007, 12:07 AM
Again look at the V-22..... Pretty sure it wont glide to well with no engine power... Then again maybe in your book lead bricks glide pretty well. I'm no V-22 pilot though, I am just making logical assumptions. Judging by the airframe of the V-22 it wouldn't work to well as a glider... Maybe I'm wrongTherein lies the problem. You quoted a V-22 pilot saying that the aircraft could glide and land like an aircraft, yet you're actively claiming that it can't, despite having absolutely no expertise on the aircraft. Now who should I believe?

And you're right, that video might not have been the best example. I'd seen a better one before but was unable to find it on YouTube.

mi35d
09-30-2007, 12:22 AM
I stopped reading seriously when they were comparing a forward mounted gun on a Cobra as compared to the Osprey.

There hasn't been an aircraft built that hasn't had problems. The Osprey has been problematic but the constant on again / off again nature of it's funding over the years.

Name Taken
09-30-2007, 12:47 AM
Before I tear your argument apart, I want to make sure you didn't mean the Sea Knight. It's silly to compare the V-22 to the CH-47, since the former is not replacing any of the latter.

The V-22 only "blows away" the CH-47 at the things you mention (which are not even all true), you conveniently leave out all the areas where the Chinook tears the Osprey a new one.

Thank you.

KillerBD
09-30-2007, 12:48 AM
Therein lies the problem. You quoted a V-22 pilot saying that the aircraft could glide and land like an aircraft, yet you're actively claiming that it can't, despite having absolutely no expertise on the aircraft. Now who should I believe?



Yes I did. I was originally quoting him becuase I thought it was well... sorta dumb that he said he could turn the V-22 into "plane" mode and glide the aircraft down for an emergancy landing like a C-130.

Except for in a C-130 the propellers wouldn't be smashing against the ground as the wheels made touch-down. That was what my qoute was pointing out, I'm sure the V-22 pilot realizes this as well, he just didn't catch his mistake when he made the statment. So I am making fun of his honest verbal mistake.

Either that or the pilot isn't too worried about ruining the props when he comes down for an emergency landing. Even though the designers of the aircraft claim that the propellers are perfectly safe for making crash landings and that major debris wont go flying into the fusalauge. But I still would rather not put this to the test as a pilot, afterall those props aren't made of paper.... So when they break I'm sure there will be at least a few pieces of shrapnel flying around dangerously.

Chulo
09-30-2007, 12:58 AM
Yes I did. I was originally quoting him becuase I thought it was well... sorta dumb that he said he could turn the V-22 into "plane" mode and glide the aircraft down for an emergancy landing like a C-130.

Except for in a C-130 the propellers wouldn't be smashing against the ground as the wheels made touch-down. That was what my qoute was pointing out, I'm sure the V-22 pilot realizes this as well, he just didn't catch his mistake when he made the statment. So I am making fun of his honest verbal mistake.

Either that or the pilot isn't too worried about ruining the props when he comes down for an emergency landing. Even though the designers of the aircraft claim that the propellers are perfectly safe for making crash landings and that major debris wont go flying into the fusalauge. But I still would rather not put this to the test as a pilot, afterall those props aren't made of paper.... So when they break I'm sure there will be at least a few pieces of shrapnel flying around dangerously.
that is all based on your assumption that
1. the landing is made with props "forward"
2. that the glide dynamics of the V22 suck and cant glide at all

KillerBD
09-30-2007, 01:09 AM
that is all based on your assumption that
1. the landing is made with props "forward"
2. that the glide dynamics of the V22 suck and cant glide at all

#2 is correct, but #1 isn't

I didn't make an assumption that the landing is made with props forward, the article stated that in an emergency they can glide down and land with the V-22 in "plane" mode. By plane mode the most likely mean props facing forward, since that is how pretty much all planes work.

JoaMei
09-30-2007, 10:12 AM
Yes I did. I was originally quoting him becuase I thought it was well... sorta dumb that he said he could turn the V-22 into "plane" mode and glide the aircraft down for an emergancy landing like a C-130.

Except for in a C-130 the propellers wouldn't be smashing against the ground as the wheels made touch-down. That was what my qoute was pointing out, I'm sure the V-22 pilot realizes this as well, he just didn't catch his mistake when he made the statment. So I am making fun of his honest verbal mistake.

Either that or the pilot isn't too worried about ruining the props when he comes down for an emergency landing. Even though the designers of the aircraft claim that the propellers are perfectly safe for making crash landings and that major debris wont go flying into the fusalauge. But I still would rather not put this to the test as a pilot, afterall those props aren't made of paper.... So when they break I'm sure there will be at least a few pieces of shrapnel flying around dangerously.

The Props are probably designed to be crashsafe, but they can turn other things like small rocks on the site of that crashlanding into deadly projectiles.

yasotay
09-30-2007, 01:32 PM
How I wish I had a dime for each of these discussions.

We will know soon enough.

As I have said here many times it is all relative. The beloved CH-47 was known as the "Boeing Body Bag" in the early 1960's and there were a number of veteran (combat) Army Aviators who refused to fly the CH-47 death trap. It had a bad habit of the rotors not remaining synchronized and hitting each other, with predictable results. It was also VERY expensive for its time. So expensive in fact that the Army reduced the requirements for the aircraft to afford it.

I personally lived the "Lawn Dart" phase of the Blackhawk, when NOBODY wanted to fly on them and few wanted to fly them (including me). I sat at Mother Rucker for a month waiting for a transition into UH-60 while they tried to figure out why they were flipping over and killing everyone. Not a motivational circumstance at all. But they got me through two combat ops without fail and now UH-60 is considered a great bird, as is the Chinook.

Osprey is not a helicopter, it is not a fixed wing. It has the benefits of both fixed and rotary wing aircraft, and it has some of their failings too. Time will tell. We will get our first opportunity soon enough in Al Anbar, but I doubt that will be the end of the argument one way or the other.

It never is.

Breakfast in Vegas
09-30-2007, 02:32 PM
Good luck to the Osprey and the crews and troops using it. I hope the aircraft proves it's worth.

And I agree Yasotay... nearly every new aircraft program is met with skepticism, the F-16, UH-60 and AH-64 just being some "recent" examples. All of those aircraft turned out to be excellent platforms once the bugs were worked out.

Telmar
09-30-2007, 02:47 PM
One of the questions I have is the complexity of the maintenance.

There are probably more elements than in a simple plane or helicopter. Any aircraft designed for operations should be extremely sturdy and as simple to service and operate as can be.

The V22 has me thinking on how many parts need to be changed after a few hours and how many hours of maintenance per hours of flight you must do.

Chulo
09-30-2007, 02:57 PM
One of the questions I have is the complexity of the maintenance.

There are probably more elements than in a simple plane or helicopter. Any aircraft designed for operations should be extremely sturdy and as simple to service and operate as can be.

The V22 has me thinking on how many parts need to be changed after a few hours and how many hours of maintenance per hours of flight you must do.
its just part of the evolution ... WWI were very simple, all u needed was some cloth and glue, WWII got a bit more complicated, props were still made out of wood, Jets come into the picture, and its way more complicated than the WWI planes... so, while it is complicated, for what it can / should be able to do, its part of the evolution of need and capability.

yasotay
09-30-2007, 03:25 PM
V-22 is a very complex aircraft. Then again so were most aircraft at the time of their introduction. Again, my favorite analogue is the CH-47A. An extremely maintenance intensive aircraft. In fact it was not until the D-Model Chinook that it was not normal for the Chinook to leak hydraulic fluid in flight. Crews carried hydraulic fluid to pour into the system in flight. The old adage was that; "You are not in trouble until it stops leaking." Many a trooper smacked their tailbone on the fluid covered ramp of a Chinook. Operational readiness rate was considered good in the mid 50% range. Today's standards are at 75%. Most of the work went into the very tricky drive train of the aircraft. Sound familiar?

Midav
09-30-2007, 03:40 PM
As I have posted in other threads, give it time and see how it will work out.

From all that I have read, the Osprey has been doing fine. No doubt it has bugs, but, in time they'll be worked out.

Telmar
09-30-2007, 03:52 PM
its just part of the evolution ... WWI were very simple, all u needed was some cloth and glue, WWII got a bit more complicated, props were still made out of wood, Jets come into the picture, and its way more complicated than the WWI planes... so, while it is complicated, for what it can / should be able to do, its part of the evolution of need and capability.

A jet engine is made out of less parts than a piston propeller aircraft and easier to service. That is also what made them more reliable.

If the aircraft is too complex to service far from a "civilized" base, it is possible that it will not be so popular with the people using it unless it proves itself worth the bother.

But as I said, it just a question on my mind and no certainty that it is harder and longer to service.

Ngati Tumatauenga
09-30-2007, 04:55 PM
Yes I did. I was originally quoting him becuase I thought it was well... sorta dumb that he said he could turn the V-22 into "plane" mode and glide the aircraft down for an emergancy landing like a C-130.

Classic. You think a qualified Osprey pilot is dumb because you didn't understand what he was saying. Pure irony.


Except for in a C-130 the propellers wouldn't be smashing against the ground as the wheels made touch-down. That was what my qoute was pointing out, I'm sure the V-22 pilot realizes this as well, he just didn't catch his mistake when he made the statment. So I am making fun of his honest verbal mistake.

Yep, you caught out the subject matter expert in a mistake.:roll:

It's not the fact that you are just irrationally ignoring everything that's been written so your precious theory will remain intact, it's that you are smarter and more experienced in aerodynamics than all of the Osprey programs engineers, designers and flight test personnel put together.:backhand:


Either that or the pilot isn't too worried about ruining the props when he comes down for an emergency landing. Even though the designers of the aircraft claim that the propellers are perfectly safe for making crash landings and that major debris wont go flying into the fusalauge. But I still would rather not put this to the test as a pilot, afterall those props aren't made of paper.... So when they break I'm sure there will be at least a few pieces of shrapnel flying around dangerously.

How many times on this thread has it been stated that the props on the Osprey are designed to disintegrate in such a way that the air isn't filled with chunks of debris?

But that's not what you want to believe is it?

Funny, I reckon you wouldn't be saying anything if this was russian made.

parmenio
09-30-2007, 05:03 PM
If you compare the V-22 with other VSTOL Projects, so one had to admit that it is at least flying and in slow production. Of all the other Projects only the Harrier has done better and is considered a success.

So i think bashing at the Marine Corps for not being able to manage a proper fligth-test program is not right. Building and constructing a unique sort of aircraft is much more difficult than a normal aquisition program.

To judge a program theoreticaly one has to ask: does it fullfill all the parameters set at the beginning of the project.
To judge a program practically one has to ask: does it help us to perform better, -is it usefull for us?

As for the various technical and tactical problems, if the Osprey program manages to go from Version A to B,C,D,E... like other programs we will see eventually a great aircraft.The biggest problem that very probably can΄t be solved is the price. You simply have to be as good as expensive.

wild_wild_wes
09-30-2007, 07:25 PM
The hot set-up in Ghost in the Shell was a V22-like convertiplane, but with counter-rotating propellers. With dual props on each nacelle, the blades might be short enough that the aircraft might be able to do a conventional landing with the engines facing full forward, eh? Better for emergency landings?

http://www.rotaryaction.com/images/ghostshel2.jpg

AlphaOneSix
09-30-2007, 07:28 PM
With dual props on each nacelle, the blades might be short enough that the aircraft might be able to do a conventional landing with the engines facing full forward, eh?


Sadly, this is not the case. The rotor discs would still need to be just as big.

wild_wild_wes
09-30-2007, 07:34 PM
Why would that be? You would have the same overall blade area moving air.

AlphaOneSix
09-30-2007, 07:39 PM
Why would that be? You would have the same overall blade area moving air.



Yeah...that's not how helicopters work.

yasotay
09-30-2007, 10:07 PM
Yeah...that's not how helicopters work.

The reason that prop-rotors are the size they are has to do with the velocity of the down-wash and out-wash. The original JVX (Army led start of V-22) had twenty percent larger prop-rotors on a bigger wing. They became smaller when the USMC had to land the V-22 onto their ships next to the island. The V-22 has greater down/out-wash that the CH-47 or CH-53. Simply put the bigger the rotor system the less the down and out wash. So while you could make the rotors smaller (eventually you get to a turbofan) you will have to push higher velocity air through them. The higher the velocity the more likely you are to pick up things off the ground (rocks, metal, sticks, etc.) that might be lying around. Things that the infantry does not appreciate getting pelted with, especially if they cause injury. The Bell-Boeing team worked very hard to get the dynamics of the rotor system small enough to fit on the boats but keep the down and out wash to a manageable level. This is one of the arguments of the detractors that will get very quickly evaluated in Al Anbar.

Hope this helps

SuperBootie
10-01-2007, 06:10 AM
Autorotation is a controlled crash landing that all helo pilots should be able to perform..



I spent 5 years of my 20 years in Naval Avation in helo squadrons..We Never ever called a Helo a chopper.

Big Daddy Popeye answering questions for the "Navally Challenged"


LMAO, I thought that to auto engage my chopper is when you wake up with that certain feeling!

SuperBootie
10-01-2007, 06:18 AM
I

I think the need for the V-22 is obvious, is it still under development of course but so is the fighter aircraft! I think the ability to move a combat team fast over a long distance and land in VSTOL/VTOL mode is priceless for operations in our major FOBs. Are they unproven yes, are they susceptible to ground fire, name an Helo or any Aircraft that isn't!

Let's see if we can get tactical use out of them, if we can it's worth it. Ignore the Russians, they are bitter!

Ratamacue
10-01-2007, 06:57 AM
I have to say in seriousness that the Russian's on here are as usual not exactly the most informed in the spectrum of military discourse. Most are Airsofters so enamored with mother Russia they live in the States or other Western European countries yet feel able and justified to claim military superiority over all!

Let's see if we can get tactical use out of them, if we can it's worth it. Ignore the Russians, they are bitter!Don't feed trolls, and don't stir **** up. Last thing we need is this thread turning into another US vs. Russia flamefest.

MonkeyLibFront
10-01-2007, 11:40 AM
The reason that prop-rotors are the size they are has to do with the velocity of the down-wash and out-wash. The original JVX (Army led start of V-22) had twenty percent larger prop-rotors on a bigger wing. They became smaller when the USMC had to land the V-22 onto their ships next to the island. The V-22 has greater down/out-wash that the CH-47 or CH-53. Simply put the bigger the rotor system the less the down and out wash. So while you could make the rotors smaller (eventually you get to a turbofan) you will have to push higher velocity air through them. The higher the velocity the more likely you are to pick up things off the ground (rocks, metal, sticks, etc.) that might be lying around. Things that the infantry does not appreciate getting pelted with, especially if they cause injury. The Bell-Boeing team worked very hard to get the dynamics of the rotor system small enough to fit on the boats but keep the down and out wash to a manageable level. This is one of the arguments of the detractors that will get very quickly evaluated in Al Anbar.

Hope this helps

So the possibility of an increase in brown outs is higher with the Osprey than say the Chinook or Sea Knight?

nemowork
10-01-2007, 08:42 PM
This is probably going to sound stupid but here goes!

In the event of an engine failure, for example from contaminated fuel the position of the wings has to be adjusted to the right position to glide in! They must need power to move something as heavy as the wings, so is there a backup power source like the windmill style generaters the airlines use or is it simply assumed there will be enough time to use the failing engines?
Or that if your caught with the wings at the wrong angle your simply out of luck?

Ol' Bob
10-01-2007, 08:50 PM
I actually got to see one of these bad boys flying around one day while we were walking into the chow hall at Parris Island, and it didn't crash. I'll probably get to ride in one soon, but because of all the negative reviews early on I'm a little nervous to say the least.

IraGlacialis
10-01-2007, 09:29 PM
I am seriously looking forward to those going into action. although I won't be surprised if the moment one crashes for a legitimate reason (pilot error, gets shot down), there will be cries to retire it. Overhyping faults to the extreme.

yasotay
10-01-2007, 11:14 PM
So the possibility of an increase in brown outs is higher with the Osprey than say the Chinook or Sea Knight?

Oh yes the brown out will be greater. Because of the higher velocity. However the Marine V-22 pilots found out an interesting benefit of the higher velocity. It pushes the dust farther out before it rolls back up and over the rotor system in an "in ground effect" environment. While the dust cloud is bigger, the V-22 crew rarely looses sight of the ground.

There have been a significant number of helo crashes due to brown out, in both OIF and OEF. To the point that there is a significant amount of work going on right now to field a system for all rotorcraft to assist the crew in brownout. I suspect that in a few years brownout will not be the danger it is today.

highdiver_2000
10-03-2007, 05:39 AM
IIRC, V-22 has a limited descent rate due to Vortex Ring State (VRS). Wouldn't this is be a restrcting factor in combat operations?

urchin
10-03-2007, 05:50 AM
It will be interesting to see how the Osprey will be escorted since it is not well armed at all. It would be silly to have helicopter escorts like apaches or cobras since it negates the advantage of the Osprey's speed and altitude. Then would they use the A-10 as an armed escort?

yasotay
10-03-2007, 08:54 AM
All helicopters are susceptible to VRS, some worse than others. It also depends on the environmental conditions the aircraft is in also. But yes I suspect because of the smaller rotors the V-22 is more suseptable. When they discovered this there was an entire test schedule done to identify the conditions under which the Osprey can get into VRS. They continue to test flight profiles even now. Of course they do that for all aircraft for many years after they are fielded. The V-22 now has a VRS warning capability.

Harrier and A-10 will likely be the escort for the V-22. Alternately the Cobras will go forward to overwatch the LZ then the V-22 will use its speed to get in fast. This is one of the methods used by the Army as well... just not as fast.

Ratamacue
10-03-2007, 03:31 PM
All helicopters are susceptible to VRS, some worse than others. It also depends on the environmental conditions the aircraft is in also. But yes I suspect because of the smaller rotors the V-22 is more suseptable. When they discovered this there was an entire test schedule done to identify the conditions under which the Osprey can get into VRS. They continue to test flight profiles even now. Of course they do that for all aircraft for many years after they are fielded. The V-22 now has a VRS warning capability.According to this (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/osprey.html?pg=3) article, the V-22 isn't nearly as susceptible to VRS as is commonly reported, and in fact the tiltrotor design makes it easier to recover from than with a helicopter.


Even two years after the third Osprey went down, pilots and designers worried about the mysterious aerodynamic problem of vortex ring state. The problem was that nobody knew much about VRS. When airplane wings or helicopter rotor blades cut through the air, they create a region of low pressure above them and high pressure below. That differential creates lift, but maintaining it depends on the smooth flow of air over both surfaces. Spinning helicopter blades turn the air beneath that high-pressure zone into chop - drop into that turbulence and the air stops sticking to the blades. The prop stops pushing, and the bird stops flying.

Lead test pilot Tom MacDonald of Boeing was assigned the VRS problem. "It was this mystery area," he says. "So little research had been done on it. People wondered: Would it swallow planes alive?"

MacDonald and the engineers worked out a system. He'd take the plane to 10,000 feet, putting enough air between him and the ground so he'd be able to recover if he got into trouble. Then he'd pull the nacelles back until they were almost vertical, in helicopter conformation, slow his forward airspeed, and try to induce VRS.

"We'd fly all day long," says Gross, copilot on a few of the test runs. "We'd fall 2,000 or 3,000 feet and recover. We'd fly back up to 10,000 feet, repeat the exercise at 1,000 feet per minute, then 1,500, then 2,000, all the way up to 5,000 feet per minute. Then we'd do it again, this time changing our airspeed." (A typical rate of descent for a 747 passenger jet on runway approach is 700 to 800 feet per minute.) In the process MacDonald, a former Marine pilot, quadrupled the published knowledge base on VRS.

What he found was that vortex ring state is surprisingly hard to induce. He had to fly slower than 40 knots while keeping the plane in a steady position for at least five seconds, and then descend at a hot 2,200 feet per minute. He also found that in an Osprey, he could recover from the condition relatively easily, provided he had 2,000 feet of altitude to play with. In the end, the team didn't alter the aircraft. Solution: Install a simple warning system. When a pilot pushes an Osprey toward VRS, a light flashes in the cockpit and a voice cautions, "Sink rate." And Osprey pilots now know to pay attention to those warnings.

verbatim03
10-04-2007, 02:40 AM
What he found was that vortex ring state is surprisingly hard to induce. He had to fly slower than 40 knots while keeping the plane in a steady position for at least five seconds, and then descend at a hot 2,200 feet per minute. He also found that in an Osprey, he could recover from the condition relatively easily, provided he had 2,000 feet of altitude to play with. In the end, the team didn't alter the aircraft. Solution: Install a simple warning system. When a pilot pushes an Osprey toward VRS, a light flashes in the cockpit and a voice cautions, "Sink rate." And Osprey pilots now know to pay attention to those warnings.What I don't understand here, is that its well known to any helicopter pilot that your airspeed must be below ETL to induce settling with power. The Marines have helicopters, why did they have to reprove that it won't happen above ETL and act like its some phenomenon of the V-22?

I also have some concerns about the V-22 in takeoff and landing on short final, especially landing. They say it can fly on one engine, but that is an extremely vague statement. Is that one engine capable of arresting the descent of a 40,000 lbs (whatever it weighs) with hot and high density altitude conditions with the nacelles vertical.
Just imagine the V-22 is coming in hot for landing to a somewhat confined area, its 120 degrees out, the thing is so heavily loaded that they did a running takeoff, and now they are about 100 Ft AGL on final and low airpseed when an engine fails for whatever reason (enemy fire whatever). Now they have to arrest that descent rate of their aircraft which is right at gross weight for an in ground effect hover, within 100 ft (probably more like 80 ft at this point) rotate the nacelles forward and power out like an airplane on one engine below stall speed in airplane mode? I just can't imagine a reaction quick enough to stop a fatal descent rate. I think what would more likely happen is they would very quickly and uncontrollably enter into a vortex ring state and try to power out of it, which makes the vortex ring even bigger and the descent rate higher, then meet up rather quickly with ground.

One could argue that under the same conditions a bad outcome would also happen in a helicopter. That is true, but I believe you have more options and more survivability in a helicopter for this situation. The pilot could decide to cut the power and auto-rotate in, which in this case is probably inside the HV curve so the helicopter is going to get destroyed at best, but likely that occupants will survive. He might even try to pickup airspeed and fly out of it on engine if he thinks he has the performance in those conditions. That option seems like it would be the best for the V-22, just keep the nacelles vertical and try to fly it out like a helicopter, but again I am just very skeptical of the statement of it flying on one engine. I'm sure it can fly on one in certain favorable conditions, but I don't think they will find those in Iraq.

yasotay
10-04-2007, 08:51 AM
What I don't understand here, is that its well known to any helicopter pilot that your airspeed must be below ETL to induce settling with power. The Marines have helicopters, why did they have to reprove that it won't happen above ETL and act like its some phenomenon of the V-22?

I also have some concerns about the V-22 in takeoff and landing on short final, especially landing. They say it can fly on one engine, but that is an extremely vague statement. Is that one engine capable of arresting the descent of a 40,000 lbs (whatever it weighs) with hot and high density altitude conditions with the nacelles vertical.
Just imagine the V-22 is coming in hot for landing to a somewhat confined area, its 120 degrees out, the thing is so heavily loaded that they did a running takeoff, and now they are about 100 Ft AGL on final and low airpseed when an engine fails for whatever reason (enemy fire whatever). Now they have to arrest that descent rate of their aircraft which is right at gross weight for an in ground effect hover, within 100 ft (probably more like 80 ft at this point) rotate the nacelles forward and power out like an airplane on one engine below stall speed in airplane mode? I just can't imagine a reaction quick enough to stop a fatal descent rate. I think what would more likely happen is they would very quickly and uncontrollably enter into a vortex ring state and try to power out of it, which makes the vortex ring even bigger and the descent rate higher, then meet up rather quickly with ground.

One could argue that under the same conditions a bad outcome would also happen in a helicopter. That is true, but I believe you have more options and more survivability in a helicopter for this situation. The pilot could decide to cut the power and auto-rotate in, which in this case is probably inside the HV curve so the helicopter is going to get destroyed at best, but likely that occupants will survive. He might even try to pickup airspeed and fly out of it on engine if he thinks he has the performance in those conditions. That option seems like it would be the best for the V-22, just keep the nacelles vertical and try to fly it out like a helicopter, but again I am just very skeptical of the statement of it flying on one engine. I'm sure it can fly on one in certain favorable conditions, but I don't think they will find those in Iraq.

verbatim03 - you obviously have some time or at least are very familiar with rotorcraft dynamics. Your points are very well laid out. I agree with you that the scenario you lay out is ugly for any aircraft that deep in the HV curve, especially at high PA/DA (47's and 53's have had "hard landings" in current environments even with both engines at high gross wgt). I think (having not talked with a V-22 pilot lately) that if they are going to attempt to Power Out of the sink rate, they will use changed nacelle angles to do so. As you know one of the requirements for VRS is stagnate regenerated air in the rotor system. One of the things they found as they studied the phenomena in V-22 is that by beeping the nacelles 10 degrees forward they immediately changed the air mass going through the rotor system. Of course it is easier for chalk 1 or 2 than say chalk 5 or chalk last, especially if the LZ is confined.

Good points. I gotta think about that one a bit.

Chulo
10-11-2007, 11:27 AM
whoooo hoo.. lets bring this one up again..



Osprey may get turret-mounted machine gun



By Gayle S. Putrich - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Oct 11, 2007 9:45:45 EDT
Air Force and Marine Corps V-22 Ospreys may get a turret-mounted machine gun, fulfilling a long-sought requirement for a forward-firing defensive weapon and making it unique among today’s U.S. transport aircraft.
There’s little agreement on when such a gun might arrive, but at least one major defense company is spending its own money to compete for the job.
A nose gun was considered early in the tilt-rotor’s two-decade gestation but was branded too costly, Air Force requirements officials said.
The fiscal 2008 supplemental request includes $82 million for research, development and testing of an “all-quadrant,” or 360-degree, defensive weapon to augment the ramp-mounted .50-caliber machine gun the Marines use for now.
Navy program spokesman James Darcy said there is no timetable for finding such a gun, and the search will be bound by finances and the plodding acquisition process.
“SOCom is looking at a faster turnaround,” Darcy said. “But Air Force Special Operations Command is flying a different mission than the Marine Corps.”
The squadron of 10 Marine-owned Ospreys now making its way to Iraq will be used largely to transport troops, equipment and supplies. The Air Force, which handles the tilt-rotor program for U.S. Special Operations Command, is buying the plane for long-range special ops missions. While the Air Force’s CV-22s are not slated to hit the desert until 2009, the service’s Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley is considering deploying his aircraft earlier.
In September, SOCom announced the search for an “interim all-quadrant defensive weapon system” for its CV-22 tilt-rotors, with the intention of flight-testing such a weapon within 120 days of the contract award.
“We both have a requirement for some sort of defensive weapon system,” said Air Force Lt Col. Chet Treloar, deputy director for mobility and special operations requirements.
But for the most part, those requirements are intentionally vague, he said, leaving the door open for industry to be as innovative as possible. It is not even specified whether the system should be fully integrated into the aircraft in the future or if a drop-in solution is the best plan.
“There are advantages and disadvantages to total, permanent integration,” said Air Force Maj. Rob Pittman of the Air Force acquisition office. “The quick-and-dirty solution that gets the job done might be the answer.”
Pittman, Treloar and Darcy said the requirements are joint Marine-Air Force requirements and the expectation is that everyone will get the same weapon. But they added that nothing has been decided except the requirements.
“There’s no competition yet and there’s been no selection yet,” Darcy said.
“It’s possible that the solution may be different” for different versions of the V-22, Pittman said. “But we push for as much commonality as possible.”
“I don’t think we’re there yet” as to what the final solution will be, Treloar said. “But the Air Force and the Navy and the Marine Corps are committed to keeping the troops safe. They want to deploy this aircraft tin a way that is as safe and effective as possible.”
BAE jumping the gun
Meanwhile, BAE Systems has been spending its own money to develop the Remote Guardian System, a turreted, remote-operated, retractable weapon that could be fielded in the third quarter of 2008 and fitted aboard the V-22 and other aircraft, said Clark B. Freise, vice president and general manager of defense avionics for BAE.
“We’ve been investing for two years and created our own program to develop the capability,” Freise said.
While Freise would not say how much BAE has spent or how much it would charge per weapon, he did say the price would be low enough to appeal to the Pentagon and high enough to recoup its investment.
“We spent a lot of money on it,” he said. “We found a hole in their protection, we’re covering it for now, and we’ll get it back. We’d rather not say how much we’ve invested. We have shared with the Marine Corps what we think it will cost to go into production, and it is significantly lower than other solutions.”
So far, the Remote Guardian has been tested only while mounted on a Humvee, but Freise said it has fired various U.S. weapons and is currently cleared to handle 300 knots and four times the force of gravity. Guns can include a 7.62mm Gatling gun, a .50-caliber machine gun and more, he said. He said it has an easily upgradeable sensor suite.
A concern with any 360-degree system, especially a remote-firing one, is taking a shot at your own propeller or landing gear.
According to BAE, that is not a risk with Remote Guardian.
“The gun will never, ever point at a part of the aircraft. We integrated the safety keys into the design from the very beginning,” Freise said.
Kris Osborn contributed to this report.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/10/defense_ospreygun_071009n/


about time they armed this bird ..

Robbee
10-11-2007, 11:33 AM
Here's BAE's Remote Guardian System.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3270/ordrwsrgsonmv22slidelgpe2.th.jpg (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ordrwsrgsonmv22slidelgpe2.jpg)

Chulo
10-11-2007, 12:09 PM
thanks for the pic robbee

looking at that setup i can understand why they worry about gettin their own rotor shot off . there is a very limited fire arc at that placement, if they moved it froward right under the nose (a la attack helicopters) it wouldnt have to worry about froward fire arcs and the risk of rotor damage would be limited to only at that small degree when the rotors are down ..

wild_wild_wes
10-11-2007, 12:24 PM
Surely the fire control could be programmed so that the permitted fire arcs won't intersect with the rotor blades?

Chulo
10-11-2007, 12:39 PM
Surely the fire control could be programmed so that the permitted fire arcs won't intersect with the rotor blades?
it does, but what im saying is that at that present location it seems to limit its fire arcs .. and placing it froward would give it better coverage

bd popeye
10-11-2007, 11:02 PM
Let Big Daddy Popeye bottom line this..The Osprey is deployed and is now in Iraq. Transported there by the USS Wasp LHD-1...... Let's give the USMC an oppurtinity to operate the MV-22 in an combat enviroment and then see how the aircraft performs. I wish the USMC "Fair winds and following seas" in their deployment of the MV-22 Osprey.

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/6c98a65dda17185c079e566f3ae794cf.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-2439G-017.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/04aa5c018188f7a7bc060619f6fa8da0.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-1238B-064.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/3516c1cd3b0c173ca3c593dd16d59616.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-1189B-099.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/3b0e67809955aa8512dfb08e16d49ae7.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-1189B-190.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/3cb3dd0fa198e2f8804c9e1b80c2079c.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-2568S-125.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/f2113645894db1523ff8fbfc9d0c6f00.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-1189B-048.jpg)

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/15050dbdc22ace2c0fe88c8779d7ce67.jpg
Download HiRes (http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/071004-N-1189B-127.jpg)


Marine Corps MV-22 Ospreys, assigned to Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron (VMM) 263, Marine Aircraft Group 29, operate on the deck of the multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1). Wasp is on surge deployment to the Middle East carrying the Osprey to its first combat deployment. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Zachary L. Borden (RELEASED)

Hilbert
10-11-2007, 11:43 PM
For some reason, I'd always envisioned the Osprey as being a bit bigger than the photos suggest.

Oh well.

gc
10-12-2007, 07:06 AM
GULF OF AQABA (Oct. 4, 2007) - A U.S. Marine Corps MV-22 Osprey, assigned to Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron (VMM) 263, Marine Aircraft Group 29, prepares for flight on the deck of the multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1). Wasp is on surge deployment to the Middle East carrying the Osprey to its first combat deployment.

Robbee
10-12-2007, 07:18 AM
Nice photos, bd popeye & gc!

TR1
10-12-2007, 07:24 AM
that thing takes up a huge amount of deck area it would seem....

kreuzacht
10-12-2007, 11:56 AM
the solution to all your problems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_31

yasotay
10-12-2007, 02:32 PM
the solution to all your problems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_31

LOL and people are concerned with the amount of downwash from a V-22. Lets use jet engines to throw even more stuff around!

Don't get me wrong Do 31 was some great technology, but like the Harrier it does not land in the sand very well. You would be blowing lots of sand, rocks, ammo can, people around. Most infantry I know prefer not to have all that s**t zinging aroound their AO when the aircraft lands.

Dark Avenger
10-12-2007, 03:09 PM
The main problems with the V-22 are, from what I know (mostly from reading articles at www.g2mil.com (http://www.g2mil.com), admittedly an anti-Osprey site), stemming from the aircraft/helo combination: Short wings = high wing loading = high stall speeds and small rotors = high disc loading = limited autorotative capability = excessive downwash. Another problem mentioned is the asymmetric downwash effect of the proprotors when one is over the deck of a ship and the other over the sea (common on seaborne ops due to wingspan) which degrades stability. And also the fact that the exhaust is hot enough to warp or even melt deck plating on ships; deflecting the exhaust sidewayw or rearwards away from the deck when the nacelles are vertical is not feasible as it would result in everyone around the area being cooked to a crisp.
As for the side mounted weapons, an interrupter system similar to those fitted to WW-II bombers could protect the nacelles, but might also have to protect the proprotors as well (in the aircraft mode - although in this case the Osprey would be flying too high at most times for the weapons to be of any use)...
And no one mentioned that the V-22 cabin cannot accomodate the HMMWV or other vehicles.
Just my two (Euro) cents.

Also found this video (http://www.eis.na.baesystems.com/video/mdm_symposium_rgs_livefire.htm) of the Remote Guardian undergoing tests.
(can't download it though; any hints please?)

signatory
10-12-2007, 04:30 PM
that thing takes up a huge amount of deck area it would seem....

Yeah like that it does.. but it can fold the blades and wngs in a number of ways

this is the maximum

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9621/foldb94840lv7.jpg

bd popeye
10-12-2007, 04:48 PM
TheRussian1 sez;

that thing takes up a huge amount of deck area it would seem....

Actually when the MV-22 is folded it is no larger than a folded CH-46. Sea Knight.

Hrvoje
10-12-2007, 04:49 PM
Remote Guardian undergoing tests.
(can't download it though; any hints please?)


http://rapidshare.com/files/62115158/Remote_Guardian.asf.html

ViktorNavorski
10-12-2007, 05:34 PM
And also the fact that the exhaust is hot enough to warp or even melt deck plating on ships; deflecting the exhaust sidewayw or rearwards away from the deck when the nacelles are vertical is not feasible as it would result in everyone around the area being cooked to a crisp.Well, those pictures certainly proven otherwise.

And no one mentioned that the V-22 cabin cannot accomodate the HMMWV or other vehicles.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are many helicopters in the West that could carry a HMMWV internally, Chinook maybe?

TR1
10-12-2007, 05:49 PM
TheRussian1 sez;


Actually when the MV-22 is folded it is no larger than a folded CH-46. Sea Knight.

orly? Thats suprising.


thanks for the info

Dark Avenger
10-12-2007, 05:50 PM
Well, those pictures certainly proven otherwise.
Whoi said the problem appears immediately?


http://rapidshare.com/files/62115158/Remote_Guardian.asf.html
Thanks!

Chulo
10-12-2007, 06:41 PM
Well, those pictures certainly proven otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are many helicopters in the West that could carry a HMMWV internally, Chinook maybe?
dont think any western helicopter can.

why do people always make that argument for any weapons system?

oh no! the V22 cant even carry a Hummer!!
OH no! the hummer cant withstand a big IED!
oh no! the space shuttle cant carry more than 1 machine gun at its door!?


the fact is that each system has a weakness and there are many things it cant do. but for that nich it fills it should be able to do it well..

the V-22 is a troop transport and fast insertion craft, it does that well
the hummer is a troop transport and not an armored personal carrier, so it does that well
the space shuttle machine gun is only for aliens, and one machine gun is enough..


in that train of thought, i dont think any helicopter that the marines or navy uses that cant dive underwater and shoot tridents out of its tail rotors should ever be developed

AlphaOneSix
10-12-2007, 06:42 PM
Whoi said the problem appears immediately?


The exhaust isn't nearly hot enough to melt metal and while it would certainly be uncomfortable, it won't burn a person, either...unless you stick your head into the exhaust pipe.

mdh60
10-12-2007, 11:35 PM
Well, those pictures certainly proven otherwise.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are many helicopters in the West that could carry a HMMWV internally, Chinook maybe?

Ok, now I remember reading "Lightening in the Storm: The 101st Air Assault in Desert Storm", in which in order to fit two HMMWV's into a CH-47 for a mission, they had to remove the doors, mirrors, and every single item within reason which would increase the width of the vehicle. I don't think doorless unarmored HMMWV's would be any use for our troops right now but there is one example.

Robbee
10-12-2007, 11:47 PM
Also found this video (http://www.eis.na.baesystems.com/video/mdm_symposium_rgs_livefire.htm) of the Remote Guardian undergoing tests.

Nice video. Some interesting high speed/thermal footage in there.

verbatim03
10-13-2007, 05:11 AM
Am I the only one, that every time I see the title of this thread, I read it like when Zoolander finds himself on the cover of Time in a garbage can?
"V-22 Osprey: A flying...shame?"