Military personnel in civi clothes

[MetroN]

I've seen pictures of SF operators (most of them posted here on MP.net) dressed in civilian clothes in A-stan, while (seemingly) undergoing operations. After seeing these pictures I began to wonder:

Shouldn't military personnel use uniforms, and clearly identify themselves as combatants?

Or is it just another type of camouflage, and okay as long as the enemy doesn't use uniform?

I've been thinking about this for some time now, and I'm interested in what kind of opinions people around here - especially those with military background - have on the subject.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Military personnel can operate in civi's as long as they don't misrepresent themselves. IE, pretend they are NGO's, tourists etc.

Basically you can wander around a battlefield dressed in whatever you like, as long as it's not the opposing sides uniform, and whatever anyone thinks when they see you is up to them. As soon as you are challenged in any way, shape or form however you must identify yourself correctly.

The GC's and LOAC are actually prety clear on the matter. Ironic, considering we're dealing with laws here.

[MetroN]

Military personnel can operate in civi's as long as they don't misrepresent themselves. IE, pretend they are NGO's, tourists etc.

Basically you can wander around a battlefield dressed in whatever you like, as long as it's not the opposing sides uniform, and whatever anyone thinks when they see you is up to them. As soon as you are challenged in any way, shape or form however you must identify yourself correctly.

The GC's and LOAC are actually prety clear on the matter. Ironic, considering we're dealing with laws here.

But what if the enemy wears civi cloths? Like they do in A-stan?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

But what if the enemy wears civi cloths? Like they do in A-stan?

Do some research into the status of different types of combatants.

A combatant force must meet certain criteria to be recognised as a military and therefore come under certain laws and rules.

[RECON DOC]

Military personnel can operate in civi's as long as they don't misrepresent themselves. IE, pretend they are NGO's, tourists etc.


That's funny. When we left Panama for Honduras in 84, that's exactly what we did. I thought it funny that we'd be mistaken for tourists with our box-head hair cuts, ALICE rucks, flyer's kit bags, etc. But that's what they told us.

[Roldwin]

Brussels Declaration 1874


Who should be recognized as belligerents combatants and non-combatants

Art. 9. The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling the following conditions: 1. That they be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
2. That they have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
3. That they carry arms openly; and
4. That they conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
In countries where militia constitute the army, or form part of it, they are included under the denomination ' army '.

[gaijinsamurai]

Same thing for me, Recon Doc. When my unit went to South Korea for Operation Team Spirit '90, we had to wear civilian clothes and tell people we were agricultural exchange students. Of course, everyone knew it was bullsh*t, with our USMC high n' tights during a major military excercise!

But, I think that only applies during time of war.

[Ordie]

When in Kazahstan, dress like Borat.

Military in civilian clothes can be spotted a mile away. Best thing to do is observe to buy local.

In Europe I could spot an American by the way he laces his shoes.

And I could spot a PRC tourist from an ROC tourist by the clothing styles and mannerisms.

[Desk Jockey]

Clearly there a people here with a great deal more experience and better versed than me on this subject. However, I recently re-read First In by Gary Schroen who was the the CIA Near East Ops Officer actually in the process of the agencie's 90 day retirement transition when called upon by then CTC head I believe Cofer Black to ingress into Afghanistan and link up with Northern Alliance elements after 9/11.

(Not be confused with Gary # 2 Bernsten who wrote Jawbreaker.)

The very subject of whether or not the initial ODA's from 5th group, I believe 595, 555, and 574 and elements of a SMU with a very specific hostage rescue tasking into country and whether or not they would be uniformed was a very serious matter at the level of Gary (#1) team Jawbreaker, TF Dagger under Colonel Mulholland, The Uzbek gov't (K2) owners, Tajik gov't authorities (flight over rights), Afghan commanders, CENTCOM, and the NCA.

As best as I can recollect this issue, along with weather and overflight rights were a serious concern for the initital Jawbreaker elements getting the much needed SF and Air Force CCT teams in country to designate targets, by issue I mean delay. Note delay was also because there was initital Centcom reluctance to loosen up AQ/Taliban lines in the north because the sqabbling over Kabul by DC, the Pashtuns, and other NA elements started right away.

However, to the best of my recollection Schroen attributed the much needed ODA's on the ground and delays occurring directly to the uniform issue.

Now my two or three paragraphs covered litereally pages in the book dealing with the SF and their lack off, mixuture off, or full wearing of uniforms to infighting and disagreements and opinions set forth by all off the above mentioned entitities.

Now

1. I am merely recollecting what I read in a book
2. There are those on here, Ngati for one who are far better versed to answer the question and
3. This is my memory typing here.

However, in the end I do recollect (acccording to me on my couch reading a book) that this was a serious issue in the fall of 2001.

Take with it a gran of salt please, and there are libraries if you want to read what Schroen's perspective was between the CIA, TF Dagger, Foreign Governments, NA leaders, CENTCOM and the NCA.

[Royal]

I've seen pictures of SF operators (most of them posted here on MP.net) dressed in civilian clothes in A-stan, while (seemingly) undergoing operations. After seeing these pictures I began to wonder:

Shouldn't military personnel use uniforms, and clearly identify themselves as combatants?

Or is it just another type of camouflage, and okay as long as the enemy doesn't use uniform?

I've been thinking about this for some time now, and I'm interested in what kind of opinions people around here - especially those with military background - have on the subject.

In an Internal Security situation where the military are operating in support of the civil power against terrorist grouping they have every right to operate in plain clothes, carry concealed weapons and defend themselves and others. They should, where possible, identify themseleves in such a situation.

On other occasions the mission dictates that some units may operate outside of the norms and rules. In such cases you takes your chances....

[MetroN]

Thanks for the answers guys.

But I'm curious; how can they identify themselves in a firefight? Yell out "US Army!" ?

[Royal]

Thanks for the answers guys.

But I'm curious; who can they identify themselves in a firefight? Yell out "US Army!" ?

That's one method that has been used. Another is the use of armbands or basball caps (sometimes in hi-viz colours) with identifying text or logos that are put on when needed.

[GiladS]

I've seen pictures of SF operators (most of them posted here on MP.net) dressed in civilian clothes in A-stan, while (seemingly) undergoing operations. After seeing these pictures I began to wonder:

Shouldn't military personnel use uniforms, and clearly identify themselves as combatants?

Or is it just another type of camouflage, and okay as long as the enemy doesn't use uniform?

I've been thinking about this for some time now, and I'm interested in what kind of opinions people around here - especially those with military background - have on the subject.

Terrorist/militia groups don't follow any sort of code and so they can't be protected by one.

Here in Israel we have SF that were created with the specific purpose of blending in with the local population (called Mistaravim) .

[gilgoul]

no need to be SF to operate or travel in plain cloth.
With the reserve, I got several chances to do observation posts and other jobs in plaincloth.
Thought, the shorty M16 at the ready in a civvy car and the radio squelshing aren`t as low profile as one would like ;)

[velvet-cream]

Terrorist/militia groups don't follow any sort of code and so they can't be protected by one.

Here in Israel we have SF that were created with the specific purpose of blending in with the local population (called Mistaravim) .

There's no problem if Israel uses them within their own borders. As Royal mentioned earlier, some countries use military personnel for internal security operations (within their own country, or with permission of a host country). Durinng such operations, personnel used in this manner do not need to comply with the international treaties regarding conventional warfare. ( it is an internal matter, almost a law enforcement function) That's why the military in counter terrorrism operations can use tear gas and hollow points (both of which are generally banned in warfare).

Note - the above may not apply in the US due to the Posse Comitatus Act. (however I'm not familiar enough with that law to say how and when it applies)

[Poccington The 3rd]

Terrorist/militia groups don't follow any sort of code and so they can't be protected by one.



Got it in one!

[Desk Jockey]

Got it in one!

True, True, but what happens when the GWOT has the US / Coalition take down another state that is supporting, harboring or in some way aiding terrorists and we are fighting a regular army?

Anyway, point is moot since this if there are SF type guys operating in states that we plan to knock off in the future they sure as hell are not getting their pics taken.

I just don't know where the line between soldier who should be treated as a POW and a spy with no diplomatic status comes into play. Probably because I have no need to. Up to now we are dealing with scumbags who execute our guys uniform or not, but the GWOT is going to be long and the list of countries is long too.

Just a concern that is all..............

[James]

I used to have fun when traveling for work playing a game I called "Pick out the Security Contractor who's trying to dress low profile."

Hehe

[Scrim]

I used to have fun when traveling for work playing a game I called "Pick out the Security Contractor who's trying to dress low profile."

Hehe
Ill bet you wear one of them red satin Marine Corps jackets with duty stations sewn up the arm.....p-)

[GiladS]

Duvdevan 'mistaravim'

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r110/tanks_alotmp/140587_389802.jpg?t=1182089720

[Snoshi]

I know that they are supposed to be undercover special unit.. But do they know arabic? Speaking it without a accent would be very important.

[GiladS]

I know that they are supposed to be undercover special unit.. But do they know arabic? Speaking it without a accent would be very important.

Their training includes learning Arabic.

[Desk Jockey]

Their training includes learning Arabic.

Isn't it like a 13 month or 15 month course in total, (with a language component included in those months) hardly enough to pass as speaker, however does this unit need to?

Do they just go in a grab or kill bad guys or spend a long time in Arab areas?

[James]

Ill bet you wear one of them red satin Marine Corps jackets with duty stations sewn up the arm.....p-)

With my boot camp go-fasters and my web belt. Libbo!!!!!

p-)

[christopherh]

i have seen and talked to uksf in iraq who were wearing civvy cloths. they id them selves by approaching us and told us who they were as well as showing id. if a fire fight had started i believe there thing is to shout who they are

[Scrim]

With my boot camp go-fasters and my web belt. Libbo!!!!!

p-)

rofl

Dont forget your silky PT shorts and your Alice pack when you go to the beach!!!

[Canadian Sig]

I wear civi clothes every day.











My wife gets mad if I wear my uniform all evening. p-)

[zonk]

i wear my uniform all during the week, i rarely wear civilian clothes during the week unless i am going to the store or something. on the weekend i won't even look at my uniform unless it is to get it ready for monday morning inspection

[Dan2004]

I typically only wear my uniform for the one weekend a month I'm obligated for, plus AT, and for the occasional volunteer detail like assisting the XO on a recruiting mission. And once in a while on laundry-day if there are no suitable civvies to wear.