Curchill on Islam

[mohica]

Unbelievable, but the speech below was written in 1899! I am sending
the attached short speech from Winston Churchill, delivered by him in
1899 when he was a young soldier and journalist. It probably sets out
the current views of many but expressed in the wonderful Churchillian
turn of phrase and use of the English language, of which he was a past
master. Sir Winston Churchill was, without doubt, one of the greatest
men of the late 19th and 20th centuries. He was a brave young soldier, a
brilliant journalist, an extraordinary politician and statesman, a great
war leader and Prime Minister, to whom the Western world must be forever
in his debt. He was a prophet in his own time; He died on 24 January
1965, at the grand old age of 90 and, after a lifetime of servi ce to his
country, was accorded a State funeral.

HERE IS THE SPEECH:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as
hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The
effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly
systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of
property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A
degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the
next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every
woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a
child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of
slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among
men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence
of the religion paralyses the social devel o pment of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being
moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has
already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at
every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong
arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the
civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of
ancient Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages
248-50 London)

Churchill saw it coming.

[Martial]

Wow, he didn't have the benefit of FOX News and he still cane to the correct conclusion.

[futurepilot2004]

God I hate those stupid emails.

[imohammed2]

Churchill saw it coming.

care to expand on that?

[dangerclose]

If he were alive today, he'd be charged with a hate crime.

[Ordie]

The book was published one year after the Battle of Omdurman in Sudan
where Winston Churchill rode with the 21st Lancers commanded by Gen. Kitchener in 1898.

The battle was against a self procliamed "Mahdi" Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah, who wanted to create an independant Islamic state in Sudan challeneging both Eygpt and Great Britian. And was responsible for the fall of Khartuom in 1885 and be-heading General Charles "China" Gordon, leader of the Anglo-Eygptian forces.

His writings should be taken in this historical context and should be companion to T.E. Lawrence's The Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

Keep in mind that the British had maintained relative order and rule of law through a wide swath of the Islamic World with minimal direct control and military force.

British Governors were rewarded with promotions within Whitehall based upon the least amount of times they called on the British Army to settle a local dispute. Places such as present day Botswana had fewer than 150 British soldiers to maintain order.

[Skutatos]

Churchill also fabricated alot of his tales of the Mahdist War, often talking about events he never witnessed.

[Ordie]

Much of what Churchill had witnessed in Sudan, India and subsequently in South Africa, had formulated his world vision for the rest of his life.

If there is any lesson today with the events of late 19th century Sudan, are it affects on local politics. The Fall of Khartoum in 1885, also led to the fall of the Liberal government and allowed for Conservative rule for many years.

Moreover, later on, Churchill saw through Hitler early on, even to the point of being ostrasized within Parlament and his own Conservative Party. This is because he was familiar with tyrants early in his career. And the affects of an international war in local politics.

This is one of the reasons why he created a unitary government during the war and was waging an ideological war against Hitler much akin to Gen. "China" Gordon against Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah.

He was General Gordon, The Battle of Britian was his Khartoum, and Washington was his London. Only this time, he wasn't beheded.

Churchill was also quoted and equally prophetic:

"What enterprise that an enlightened community may attempt is more noble and more profitable than the reclamation from barbarism of fertile regions and large populations? To give peace to warring tribes, to administer justice where all was violence, to strike the chains off the slave, to draw the richness from the soil, to plant the earliest seeds of commerce and learning, to increase in whole peoples their capacities for pleasure and diminish their chances of pain --- what more beautiful ideal or more valuable reward can inspire human effort? The act is virtuous, the exercise invigorating, and the result often extremely profitable. Yet as the mind turns from the wonderful cloudland of aspiration to the ugly scaffolding of attempt and achievement, a succession of opposite ideas arise."

[Laworkerbee]

Thanks for shedding some light Ordie

As usual "just the facts" p-)

[Horizon]

I just knew Winston Churchill role in WWII, but it makes me more curious about the man.Any autobiography to advise?

[mohica]

Churchill also fabricated alot of his tales of the Mahdist War, often talking about events he never witnessed.


Uhhhhhhhhh, yeah. I knew it wouldn't take long for the "conspiracy" type to chime in.

[AROUETLJ]

Much of what Churchill had witnessed in Sudan, India and subsequently in South Africa, had formulated his world vision for the rest of his life.

If there is any lesson today with the events of late 19th century Sudan, are it affects on local politics. The Fall of Khartoum in 1885, also led to the fall of the Liberal government and allowed for Conservative rule for many years.

Moreover, later on, Churchill saw through Hitler early on, even to the point of being ostrasized within Parlament and his own Conservative Party. This is because he was familiar with tyrants early in his career. And the affects of an international war in local politics.

This is one of the reasons why he created a unitary government during the war and was waging an ideological war against Hitler much akin to Gen. "China" Gordon against Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah.

He was General Gordon, The Battle of Britian was his Khartoum, and Washington was his London. Only this time, he wasn't beheded.

Churchill was also quoted and equally prophetic:

"What enterprise that an enlightened community may attempt is more noble and more profitable than the reclamation from barbarism of fertile regions and large populations? To give peace to warring tribes, to administer justice where all was violence, to strike the chains off the slave, to draw the richness from the soil, to plant the earliest seeds of commerce and learning, to increase in whole peoples their capacities for pleasure and diminish their chances of pain --- what more beautiful ideal or more valuable reward can inspire human effort? The act is virtuous, the exercise invigorating, and the result often extremely profitable. Yet as the mind turns from the wonderful cloudland of aspiration to the ugly scaffolding of attempt and achievement, a succession of opposite ideas arise."

Er, he's talking about colonialism. You're not, eek!, in favour of that, are you?

[daily666]

I just knew Winston Churchill role in WWII, but it makes me more curious about the man.Any autobiography to advise?

Try starting with this one "The Second World War" a six-volume history of the period.

[Kilgor]

Like him or love him he had a knack for calling a spade a spade, if it be Nazism, Communism or in this case Radical Islam.

[Thor]

Churchill was spot on in just about everything. Though in some parts only after he reconsidered the alternatives.

For those of you who didn't know he won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1953.

[Kilgor]

Churchill was spot on in just about everything. .

And more importantly he was spot on when others considered his insightful views belligerent. History turned out to vindicate him.

[Ordie]

Er, he's talking about colonialism. You're not, eek!, in favour of that, are you?

I tend to look beyond that.

I think he is trying to convey, that if we (humankind) were able to set the conditions of a civil society, then people will thrive independently and the need for war and fundamentalism is mitigated.

Moreover, if people were within the "grid" and not in assymetrical void areas the less likely they will engage in fundamentalist activities.

Fundamentalists, thrive in areas where scarcity of goods and services exist. For them the control of scarce commodities is power.

As in the case with Mahdists in Sudan. What Churchill saw in this guys was all about control but nothing to show for it for thier people. Half the population died, persecution was common, the slave trade returned. When the British returned, it was no surprise that people were relieved.

Late 19th century Sudan has alot of parallels with today's Afghanistan.

FYI: Churchill had good pedigree. His mother was an American, his ancestor was the 1st Duke of Marlborough and he was born in Blenheim Palace. The palace Hitler had his eyes on if he were to sucessfully invaded Britian.

Every year the Duke of Marlborough pays rent to the Crown by presenting a French flag.

[AROUETLJ]

So bloody what? I have a ****ty pedigree, and I've had to fight for everything in life. What did Churchill do except cross the floor of the House countless times?

[Skutatos]

Uhhhhhhhhh, yeah. I knew it wouldn't take long for the "conspiracy" type to chime in.

What, what conspiracy? just saying he isn't always exactly truthful when talking about his experiences in the Sudan, he often talks about things he never witnessed like the supposed horrible fire discipline of the Sudanese troops(of the egyptian army) at Atbara, which was not the case, they actually did quite well according to most EYEWITNESS accounts.

[Ordie]

So bloody what? I have a ****ty pedigree, and I've had to fight for everything in life. What did Churchill do except cross the floor of the House countless times?

Unlike Petain, Churchill never surrendered.

[Kilgor]

So bloody what? I have a ****ty pedigree, and I've had to fight for everything in life. What did Churchill do except cross the floor of the House countless times?

Do you have any idea of his life's story ?

[I can't think of a name]

So bloody what? I have a ****ty pedigree, and I've had to fight for everything in life. What did Churchill do except cross the floor of the House countless times?

Ignorance is bliss......


Churchill could of done what you said, live like a playboy and do nothing. He chose to to be significant and great.

Ordie, did you study any of this formally or read it all for pleasure? Good posts

[Breakfast in Vegas]

So bloody what? I have a ****ty pedigree, and I've had to fight for everything in life. What did Churchill do except cross the floor of the House countless times?
"During his army career Churchill saw combat with the Malakand Field Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malakand_Field_Force) on the Northwest Frontier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Frontier), at the Battle of Omdurman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman) in the Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan) and during the Second Boer War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War) in South Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa). During this period he also gained fame, and not a small amount of notoriety, as a correspondent."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

[AROUETLJ]

Unlike Petain, Churchill never surrendered.

Spare me the goddamn French comments. I'm ****ing Maltese, in other words, a colonial subhuman.

[Calanen]

Reminds me of the problem President Jefferson had to contend with, when he told congress the reason why muslim pirates were attacking US shipping:

http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/fr/rss/

A few years later, in 1786, the new United States found that it was having to deal very directly with the tenets of the Muslim religion. The Barbary states of North Africa (or, if you prefer, the North African provinces of the Ottoman Empire, plus Morocco) were using the ports of today's Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia to wage a war of piracy and enslavement against all shipping that passed through the Strait of Gibraltar. Thousands of vessels were taken, and more than a million Europeans and Americans sold into slavery. [Edit - that seems like rather too many to me, I'd give him 100s or perhaps 1000s, but a million....] The fledgling United States of America was in an especially difficult position, having forfeited the protection of the British Royal Navy. Under this pressure, Congress gave assent to the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated by Jefferson's friend Joel Barlow, which stated roundly that "the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen." This has often been taken as a secular affirmation, which it probably was, but the difficulty for secularists is that it also attempted to buy off the Muslim pirates by the payment of tribute.


That this might not be so easy was discovered by Jefferson and John Adams when they went to call on Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves in this way. As Jefferson later reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:
The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.
Medieval as it is, this has a modern ring to it. Abdrahaman did not fail to add that a commission paid directly to Tripoli—and another paid to himself—would secure some temporary lenience. I believe on the evidence that it was at this moment that Jefferson decided to make war on the Muslim states of North Africa as soon as the opportunity presented itself.

And, even if I am wrong, we can be sure that the dispatch of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps to the Barbary shore was the first and most important act of his presidency. It took several years of bombardment before the practice of kidnap and piracy and slavery was put down, but put down it was, Quranic justification or not.

[Ordie]

Spare me the goddamn French comments. I'm ****ing Maltese, in other words, a colonial subhuman.

He could've given up on Malta just as the Channel Islands, but he didn't.

[Ordie]

Ignorance is bliss......


Churchill could of done what you said, live like a playboy and do nothing. He chose to to be significant and great.

Ordie, did you study any of this formally or read it all for pleasure? Good posts

I'm just an armchair historian. I've been to Blenhiem Palace and visited the Whitehall Bunkers in London.

Like many of his generation, Eisenhower, FDR, MacArthur, Patton, Nimitz, De Gaulle, and Monty, They all have special leadership traits that created a synergy of sorts unparalleled in history.

Its something that is lacking in today's world.

[Lazuris]

I'm just an armchair historian. I've been to Blenhiem Palace and visited the Whitehall Bunkers in London.

Like many of his generation, Eisenhower, FDR, MacArthur, Patton, Nimitz, De Gaulle, and Monty, They all have special leadership traits that created a synergy of sorts unparalleled in history.

Its something that is lacking in today's world.

Its simple, politicts then was a duty and most took it that way. Today people use it as a job or as a power trip.

[Billy No Mates]

Its simple, politicts then was a duty and most took it that way. Today people use it as a job or as a power trip.

No one in Britain would vote for someone that was bald,overweight and who unashamedly enjoyed drinking and smoking,its a shame but we prefer antiseptic spivs with permagrins and sly looking career politicos .

[Kippari]

Churchill was the ruthless bastard who was called when the job needed to be done. A creation of his time.

[mohica]

Spare me the goddamn French comments. I'm ****ing Maltese, in other words, a colonial subhuman.

Being that Malta was one of if not the most heavily bombed pieces of real estate in the European Theatre during WWII, I would think you might have some affinity and gratitude for the Brit's (and American's) sacrafices so you wouldn't be SPEAKING GERMAN TODAY!

[Ordie]

Churchill was the ruthless bastard who was called when the job needed to be done. A creation of his time.

Churchill hated politics.
He was at odds with his own party more so than with the opposition.

This is probably why he set up a national unity government with cabinent members with the opposition members and technocrats. He knew that if it were a cabinent based on party lines it would have been difficult to conduct the war. By having his political opponents in office, the Loyal Opposition remained quiet.

Churchill's theory was (Quoting LBJ here) “I’d rather have him [Political Opponets] inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.”

It would be akin if Bush appointed Al Gore, Eagleberger, Joesph Nye, Anthony Zinni and Richardson into his cabinent soon after 9/11.

[Ordie]

Being that Malta was one of if not the most heavily bombed pieces of real estate in the European Theatre during WWII, I would think you might have some affinity and gratitude for the Brit's (and American's) sacrafices so you wouldn't be SPEAKING GERMAN TODAY!

It would have been another Sicily, forgotten by Rome and overrun by the Mafia as a transhipment point for smuggled goods from North Africa.

But the Brits were much better with the "Rule of Law" than the Italian's "Rule of Favors".

[Eoin666]

Try starting with this one "The Second World War" a six-volume history of the period.

spot of light reading then eh? managed to get the whole 6 volumes for £6 in a secondhand shop, or you could try Churchill a Study in Greatness (Geoffrey Best), a bit lighter on the bookshelf

[artistoli]

The smartest thing Churchill said in my opinion was the following:

'The worst difficulties from which we suffer do not come from without. They come from... a peculiar type of brainy people always found in our country, who, if they add something to its culture, take much from its strength. Our difficulties come from the mood of unwarrantable self-abasement into which we have been cast by a powerful section of our own intellectuals.' - Winston Churchill, 1933

Clever man. Britain is still full of such people.

[Rictor]

Churchill was spot on in just about everything. Though in some parts only after he reconsidered the alternatives.

For those of you who didn't know he won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1953.

"Spot on" as in subscribing to the International Jewish Conspiracy and promoting liberal use of poison gas to keep uppity colonial subjects in line?