SA-80 with foreward grip *REQ* [Archive]

muttbutt

10-04-2007, 05:29 PM

The only forward grip (vertical pistol type grip) I have seen are of private purchase items fitted via a strap. I can't imagine many armourers would be happy with people drilling into the handguard....

Of course the L22 AFV carbine has a folding foregrip, but it doesn't fit onto the SA80A2 as far as I know. Quite why one would need a vertical grip on the SA80 is beyond me, as it's a bullpup to start with and has a short pull already.
user comfort..hands in a more comfortable postion, I suppose is one reason, gripping around the forend like they do now is not a normal position for human hands, but the photo I saw wasa grip attached to the rifle not by a strap

SMGLee

10-04-2007, 05:32 PM

There are actually some SA80A2 with rail system made by B&T that MoD purchased along with VFG.

ZoneOne

10-04-2007, 06:25 PM

http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31sa80a2k2jk3.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5677/31sa80a2k2tu7.th.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31sa80a2k2tu7.jpg)

muttbutt

10-04-2007, 06:43 PM

http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31sa80a2k2jk3.jpg
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5677/31sa80a2k2tu7.th.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=31sa80a2k2tu7.jpg)
Is that a little 1/6th scale version of the cut down SAS-80?:|

Nod

10-04-2007, 06:57 PM

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9830/l85cargreengriprt263599gi2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
?

Psycomore

10-04-2007, 07:08 PM

???????? is this it by any chance?

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3496/ca678j3gvi3.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca678j3gvi3.jpg)

RAFREGT.

10-04-2007, 09:28 PM

its easy enough to get a spare hanguard and fix a spare LSW rear grip to it, i know because i've done it! quick to replace when handing back into the armoury. I'll dig it out and take a picture of it for you.

ZoneOne

10-05-2007, 01:28 AM

Is that a little 1/6th scale version of the cut down SAS-80?:|

I have no idea, I typed in SA80 and L85a1 in google images and those came up.

Royal

10-05-2007, 05:00 AM

Is that a little 1/6th scale version of the cut down SAS-80?:|

No :roll:

It's an L22A1 - read the bloody thread...

Lerch

10-05-2007, 05:30 AM

Royal

10-05-2007, 06:15 AM

What Royal said.

As per the attachment of the LSW grip...how? I know with the C7/8 you can thread the vertical grip from the C9 into the foregrip (threads inside the vent holes), so is it the same thing on the L85's?

No. You just use a jubilee clip through the bottom of the handguard (if you're so inclined - though God knows why you would be).

martinexsquaddie

10-05-2007, 06:58 AM

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 08:18 AM

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9830/l85cargreengriprt263599gi2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
?

This image is of the experimental version of the carbine version of the L85A1 produced way back. It is not the L22A1 now in use which is pictured below. It is clearly pre-A2 upograde as indicated by the "A1" style cocking handle etc.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/Stubby17.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/Stubby12.jpg

L22A1 Carbine currently in service with some British units.

There are actually some SA80A2 with rail system made by B&T that MoD purchased along with VFG.

B&T advertise a forend/rail for the L85A2, but have you any hard evidence to show that these have been purchased by the MoD and are used by any British units? Any accessories used (i.e. lights, laser markers, etc.) are normally attached by means of screw/glue-on fastenings, and the pressel switch for PRR attaches by its own fasteners.

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 08:23 AM

Is that a little 1/6th scale version of the cut down SAS-80?:|

No, but this is:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/l22a1.jpg

big_les

10-05-2007, 08:40 AM

No, but this is:

Which is the 2nd pic zoneone posted. So muttbutt was right to ask if it was a 1/6 model version of the 1st gen SA-80 carbine.

Nige

10-05-2007, 08:58 AM

The Carbine is currently issued to RAC (Armoured Corps) units.
Effective range is reduced, but they are easier to carry than a standard L85A2 in the Recce Vehicles (CVR-T).

I know this because they were issued to my old unit just as I left the Brit Army.

UK MoD are also tendering for a new foregrip for the L85A2, with picatinny rails at 3, 6 and 9 O'Clock positions. I can't find a link at present but Jane's had an article on it.

Hope this helps

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 09:04 AM

Which is the 2nd pic zoneone posted. So muttbutt was right to ask if it was a 1/6 model version of the 1st gen SA-80 carbine.

You're right, and what's more it's my picture, I took it of the 1/6th model I made. I hadn't blown up the image to check.

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 09:17 AM

The Carbine is currently issued to RAC (Armoured Corps) units.

The L22A1 is now in much wider use. It is being used by Royal Marine Wiking crews, some Royal Marine boarding crews in the Persian Gult, the L22A1 has also been seen with some CP units and is also turning up in other areas.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/CAEJC5AF.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/drayson2.jpg

Hauser

10-05-2007, 09:27 AM

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9830/l85cargreengriprt263599gi2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
?
Is this a prototype or something? I thought the A1 didn't have picatinny rails, and the pic below is the A2 isn't it?
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6761/sa80l22a2ne5.jpg
Also, is it true that the L22 is issued with a different SUSAT? If so, what is the differance?

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 09:31 AM

Is this a prototype or something? I thought the A1 didn't have picatinny rails, and the pic below is the A2 isn't it?
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/6761/sa80l22a2ne5.jpg
Also, is it true that the L22 is issued with a different SUSAT? If so, what is the differance?

Read my post above, the photo marked "Property of MFI" is not an L22A1, it is an early prototype SA80 carbine.

BEWARE - many photos which are supposedly of L22A1 carbines are actually the so-called "L85A2 AFV" airsoft toys currently on the market.

N.B. The Photo you have shown with the blue tape shows the actual configuration of the L22A1 complete with picatinny rails, SUSAT and rail below the barrel, it is the MFI picture which is the prototype.

Hauser

10-05-2007, 09:41 AM

Read my post above, the photo marked "Property of MFI" is not an L22A1, it is an early prototype SA80 carbine.

BEWARE - many photos which are supposedly of L22A1 carbines are actually the so-called "L85A2 AFV" airsoft toys currently on the market.

N.B. The Photo you have shown with the blue tape shows the actual configuration of the L22A1 complete with picatinny rails, SUSAT and rail below the barrel, it is the MFI picture which is the prototype.

Sorry, missed your earlier post for some reason. So is there only an A1 version of the L22? If so, is the following a different prototype, as I thought this was the A1?
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/532/L22A1.JPG

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 09:52 AM

Sorry, missed your earlier post for some reason. So is there only an A1 version of the L22? If so, is the following a different prototype, as I thought this was the A1?
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/532/L22A1.JPG

The weapon pictured above is not an L22A1. It is simply yet another version of the earlier prototype carbine, note the L85A1 style of cocking handle.

I'll explain it as simply as possible for you as you clearly haven't understood.

The weapon you have pictured is a prototype weapon made perhaps 15 years ago or more and never adopted. It was a modified L85A1 (or maybe even L86A1). It was never given a separate designation. Or this may possibly have been an early developmental model used during the L22A1 trials, but pre-"A2" standard upgrade. It is not an L22A1.
The L22A1 is a newly adopted weapon and is the first model of the L22 series, hence the "A1" designation in the Land number series. The L85A2 is the second variant of the L85 series, hence "A2".
The L22A1 is not a sub-variant of the L85A2, it is a different weapon altogether hence the different designation, so the fact that the action etc. is updated to the same standard as the L85A2/L86A2 is totally irrelevant as it is the first officially adopted variant of the L22A1 carbine.Better now?

Hauser

10-05-2007, 09:59 AM

Thanks, i get it now. Was just confused by the fact that i have seen various sources claiming that the above picture is the A1, and the one with blue tape on the A2.

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 10:25 AM

I'll be totally honest and say that I don't know when the various prototype carbines were produced - some were very early, and some were later, there have also been versions with short plastic foregrips.

Suffice to say the L22A1 standard is quite easily identifiable.

Nige

10-05-2007, 10:26 AM

Hi DW58,
I should have worded my post more accurately - the initial issue was to RAC, I guess in the year since I moved they've produced a few more.

RAFREGT.

10-05-2007, 10:34 AM

rock apes leading the way in combat fashions:)
don't actually see the need

tried it back in 95ish as i was curious,nothing ventured and all that!
it did nothing for me though, was ok as a mono pod when dug in, in a trench, but other than that i binned it after the first time.

muttbutt

10-05-2007, 02:28 PM

No :roll:

It's an L22A1 - read the bloody thread...
If you look closely at the photo, it's the 1/6th toy version,;)

Royal

10-05-2007, 02:34 PM

If you look closely at the photo, it's the 1/6th toy version,;)

Fair point ;)

But WTF is an SAS 80?

DeltaWhisky58

10-05-2007, 02:41 PM

If you look closely at the photo, it's the 1/6th toy version,;)

There is no 1/6th toy version - I built that model myself. I don't know where he got the photo from, but I originally took it.

muttbutt

10-05-2007, 02:50 PM

There is no 1/6th toy version - I built that model myself. I don't know where he got the photo from, but I originally took it....ok, you built the 1/6th scale model replica...I won't call it a "toy" again:-(

muttbutt

10-05-2007, 02:53 PM

Fair point ;)

But WTF is an SAS 80?
Groan I thought I edited that out....the SAS-80 is a version used by an elite unit of people with fat fingers..ie me

christopherh

10-06-2007, 05:50 PM

DeltaWhisky58

10-06-2007, 05:53 PM

the weapon above is the sa80 a2 carbine rifle we call it the stubby k. it is now standered issue to tank crews as its a smaller weapon and can still be fitted with a ugl if need be. it comes with 2 x 30 round mags the same as the sa80a2 and it also has two smaller 20 round mags.

This had already been established about 36 hours ago. I know you have just joined and are no doubt anxious to bump up your own post count, but don't tell us what we clearly know already.

By the way your designation is wrong, it is not an "SA80 A2" carbine as strictly there is no such beast, it is as posted above, an L22A1. If you're British Army you ought to know that.

christopherh

10-06-2007, 05:56 PM

sorry just joined this site and did not look at page 2

DeltaWhisky58

10-06-2007, 05:57 PM

sorry just joined this site and did not look at page 2

Do not post on any topic unless you have read the whole topic first - saves mistakes.

Hauser

10-06-2007, 06:30 PM

This had already been established about 36 hours ago. I know you have just joined and are no doubt anxious to bump up your own post count, but don't tell us what we clearly know already.

By the way your designation is wrong, it is not an "SA80 A2" carbine as strictly there is no such beast, it is as posted above, an L22A1. If you're British Army you ought to know that.

Im thoroughly expecting to be proven wrong, but isn't the terms "SA80A2 carbine" and "SA80A2K" technically correct also, as these are the names that the new rifles are manufactured under by hecklar and koch?

DeltaWhisky58

10-06-2007, 06:37 PM

The term SA80 is not an official designation - it dates way, way back to the developmental phase of the entire weapons system (i.e. IW/LSW) when SA80 was the project term for the system. It has stuck as an unofficial name, but has no formal standing as far as I am aware. The weapons currently in service in the front line are L85A2, L86A2 and L22A1. L85A1/L86A1 still remain in second line service/war stocks until all are converted, and the L98A1 is currently used by cadet units.

SA80 Carbine, and SA80A2k have been used especially by the media, but I'm not aware again of either having any official standing.

Aren't we forgetting the subject of this topic in the first place, which is SA80 with forward grip, or should I say L85A2 with vertical grip?

Oh, and BTW - it's Heckler und Koch.

christopherh

10-07-2007, 09:22 AM

any way we all call it the a2 or the carbine its like the landrover we call it the wolf however same again that was just a project name. im on my small arms instructors in a week so ill see if i get away with calling it the a2. dont forget the pistol is also still in service!!

DeltaWhisky58

10-07-2007, 10:15 AM

Won't you need to be able to write with proper sentences, punctuation and capital letters if you're attending courses.

Using jargon is fine under some circumstances. Where I come from we use the term Pratt when referring some some people - if the cap fits?? You can call your "SA80" anything you like, but it still doesn't make it the correct designation.

Kilkenny

10-07-2007, 11:55 PM

[quote=christopherh;2801822]any way we all call it the a2 or the carbine its like the landrover we call it the wolf however same again that was just a project name. im on my small arms instructors in a week so ill see if i get away with calling it the a2. dont forget the pistol is also still in service!![/quot

Good luck on your course, does that get you promoted to Sgt? In Canada it does. What's the deal with A2? We call it that here too. A guy in Afghanistan was letting me play with his and he called it an SA-80A2. He hated it. Must have been because he was a lefty.

Nige

10-08-2007, 04:17 AM

To be absoluetely 'correct' SA80 a family of weapons including:
L85 rifle
L86 LSW
51mm Mortar

The A2 refers to the build standard or 'Mark' in old money.

The average squaddie will call a rifle the SA80 or A2 or whatever, as DW58 says, it isn't correct but it is done.

Unless things have changed since I left the UK, the fitting of a vertical grip to the rifle would be considered an unauthorised modification, leading to a slapped wrist as minimum.

I certify I have read all posts in this thread

DeltaWhisky58

10-08-2007, 04:30 AM

Unless things have changed since I left the UK, the fitting of a vertical grip to the rifle would be considered an unauthorised modification, leading to a slapped wrist as minimum.

I certify I have read all posts in this thread

PMSL - a classic squaddie comment!

BTW, isn't "Here, hold me f*ckin' Gat for a second" what you're most liklely to hear? ;-)

zealot

10-08-2007, 10:56 AM

...smaller weapon and can still be fitted with a ugl if need be...

do you mean underslung grenade launcher? elaborate please..

velvet-cream

10-08-2007, 11:08 AM

....The L22A1 is a newly adopted weapon and is the first model of the L22 series, hence the "A1" designation in the Land number series. The L85A2 is the second variant of the L85 series, hence "A2".
The L22A1 is not a sub-variant of the L85A2, it is a different weapon altogether hence the different designation, so the fact that the action etc. is updated to the same standard as the L85A2/L86A2 is totally irrelevant as it is the first officially adopted variant of the L22A1 carbine.[/LIST]Better now?

Hey just wondering - Would it be correct to say all L22A1 in service were an L85A1 or L86A1 in a previous life?

I was under the impression that the L22A1 weapon was rebuilt from previous rifles/LSW.

DeltaWhisky58

10-08-2007, 11:10 AM

Hey just wondering - Would it be correct to say all L22A1 in service were an L85A1 or L86A1 in a previous life?

I was under the impression that the L22A1 weapon was rebuilt from previous rifles/LSW.

As far as I'm aware, that is the case.

velvet-cream

10-08-2007, 11:13 AM

As far as I'm aware, that is the case.

Thanks

1234567890

Ubar

10-08-2007, 11:15 AM

do you mean underslung grenade launcher? elaborate please..

Indeed, the barrel is not long enough on the L22 to attach the UGL to it...

Adam Wilhelm

10-08-2007, 02:36 PM

I´m sure i can find the answer with relative ease but here it comes anyway...

How long is the L22 barrel?

Ubar

10-08-2007, 03:44 PM

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

(~220mm iirc, total length is 565mm according to the Pam but there is no barrel length listed)

bluffcove

10-08-2007, 03:49 PM

Im a lefty I have no problems with it.

I was taught to shoot it right handed, i shoot target and shotgun left handed but the SA80 is a different beast so I shoot it right handed. Its a tool mass prodcuced and not a precision instrument. for an APWT I might stick an earplug behind in the safety catch to tighten the fit but that is it.

wild_wild_wes

10-09-2007, 12:33 AM

Those shorties really need a proper CQB optic.

christopherh

10-09-2007, 03:46 PM

[quote=DeltaWhisky58;2801320]The term SA80 is not an official designation - it dates way, way back to the developmental phase of the entire weapons system (i.e. IW/LSW) when SA80 was the project term for the system. It has stuck as an unofficial name, but has no formal standing as far as I am aware.

actually according to the infantry training volume 2
skill at arms pam 5

"THE SA80 A2 (5.56MM ) SYSTEM ( RIFLE, LIGHT SUPPORT WEAPON AND CARBINE ) AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT.

THAT ABOVE IS A QUOTE therefor i think that carbine, sa80a2 etc are official titles as they are in official puplications.

DeltaWhisky58

10-09-2007, 04:01 PM

I can't be bothered arguing with you on this any longer - I'd have thought that anyone in the British Army would be conversant with the "L" or "Land" series of designations.

The correct and official designations of the weapons are all in the "L" series whether you believe me or not.

Put it this way ... ...

The weapon I was trained on was the L1A1 SLR, the Self Loading Rifle - everyone called it the SLR, but it's official designation was, is, and always will be the L1A1.

The same goes for the L85A2, L86A2 and L22A1, you can call them SA80, tell me they're mentioned in as many official publications as you like as SA80, but officially the term SA80 still refers to the original weapons system and the official designations are as I have stated.

I don't have access to official publications, so I can't prove it to you. Continue to argue the point if you wish, I just can't be bothered any longer. As a final parting shot, here's the "L" series entry from ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/index.php/L_Series), a source you might just be familiar with:

L85A1 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L85A1) 5.56mm Individual Weapon (SA 80)
L85A2 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L85A2) 5.56mm Individual Weapon (SA 80)Improved version.
L86A1 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L86A1) 5.56mm Light Support Weapon, LMG version of L85, with bipod.
L98A1 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L98A1) 5.56mm Cadet General Purpose rifle. Manually operated single-shot version of L85A1 EWS.The list hasn't been updated to include the L22A1, but it ought to be listed in due course.

My parting word is quotation from your own post:

"THE SA80 A2 (5.56MM ) SYSTEM ( RIFLE, LIGHT SUPPORT WEAPON AND CARBINE ) AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT."

The pertinent phrase is "SA80 System" - I rest my case.

Whether or not you continue digging the hole around yourself is up to you.

California Joe

10-09-2007, 05:20 PM

What DW's politely trying to say is Shut the F*ck Up. Nobody cares what you read.

oldsoak

10-09-2007, 05:37 PM

OOI, we were issued with 20 rd mags for use with it, not the standard 30rd ones.

christopherh

10-09-2007, 06:21 PM

each of our carbines has 2 x 30 round mags and 2 x 20 round mags. we got the 20 round mags because they found that when the carbine was stored in the outside bin the mag was to long as the original design had the carbines stood up. so we got a cut down mag for them.

velvet-cream

10-10-2007, 02:45 AM

Ok.

Here's my attempt to clear the confusion. This is what the official British Army website has to say about the SA80, L85 or whatever you guys want to call it.

http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/current_equipment/the_infantry_small_arms_in_the_section.htm

note: this webpage was probably written by a civvy.

DeltaWhisky58

10-10-2007, 06:00 AM

What it says is perfectly correct, however read my post above.

Calling the British Army's weapon the SA80, is the same as calling an Australian Army rifle an "AUG" or similar, it's an accepted description and is perfectly correct, but it is not the offical designation for it.

I can't be bothered arguing with you on this any longer - I'd have thought that anyone in the British Army would be conversant with the "L" or "Land" series of designations.

The correct and official designations of the weapons are all in the "L" series whether you believe me or not.

Put it this way ... ...

The weapon I was trained on was the L1A1 SLR, the Self Loading Rifle - everyone called it the SLR, but it's official designation was, is, and always will be the L1A1.

The same goes for the L85A2, L86A2 and L22A1, you can call them SA80, tell me they're mentioned in as many official publications as you like as SA80, but officially the term SA80 still refers to the original weapons system and the official designations are as I have stated.

I don't have access to official publications, so I can't prove it to you. Continue to argue the point if you wish, I just can't be bothered any longer. As a final parting shot, here's the "L" series entry from ARRSE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/index.php/L_Series), a source you might just be familiar with:

L85A1 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L85A1) 5.56mm Individual Weapon (SA 80)
L85A2 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L85A2) 5.56mm Individual Weapon (SA 80)Improved version.
L86A1 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L86A1) 5.56mm Light Support Weapon, LMG version of L85, with bipod.
L98A1 (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L98A1) 5.56mm Cadet General Purpose rifle. Manually operated single-shot version of L85A1 EWS.The list hasn't been updated to include the L22A1, but it ought to be listed in due course.

My parting word is quotation from your own post:

The pertinent phrase is "SA80 System" - I rest my case.

Whether or not you continue digging the hole around yourself is up to you.

As a final postscript; L85A2 is the official designation for the SA80A2 just the same as FV4034 is the correct designation for the Challenger 2 MBT and FV510 is the correct official designation for the Warrior APC - how many people refer to FV4034 or FV510? Does this make it any clearer?