US damaging sacred sites for Shiite Muslims

[weedman]

NAJAF, Iraq (AP) -- Backed by helicopters, American tanks charged into the center of this holy city on Friday and blasted positions held by fighters loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who condemned the United States in a sermon. The Shrine of Imam Ali, one of the most sacred sites for Shiite Muslims, was slightly damaged in the fighting.

Four Iraqis died and 26 were wounded, said Haidar Raheem Naama, an official at the city's main hospital. He said most were civilians. At least three militiamen were killed, and their coffins were brought to the shrine for family and friends to pray for their souls.

...

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME



That's the way to earn respect from a non-militant, average Shiit. :roll:

[budanski]

Heres a good analysis: (http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=IRAQ.HTM)


The terror campaign being waged by the Sunni Arab nationalists (the Baath Party crowd) and Islamic fundamentalists (al Qaeda and associates) is having some success. In addition to driving a third of the foreign reconstruction workers out of the country, it has delayed foreign banks from setting up operations in the country. Two of the banks (HSBC Holdings PLC and Standard Chartered PLC.) that have announced they will set up operations in Iraq, have delayed entry until security improves. Thus the National Bank of Kuwait is the only foreign bank operating in Iraq. This is novel, for foreign banks were expelled in 1964.*


Meanwhile, the Central Bank of Iraq is up and running and the local currency, the dinar, is getting stronger every week (it currently trades at 1,460 dinars to the dollar.) The economy continues to improve, with Iraqis working around the transportation delays brought about by Sunni attacks on highway traffic. There is more economic opportunity for the average Iraqi than there has been for decades. Despite the high unemployment (over 20 percent), there are more new jobs being created each month by the new economic polices (which favor entrepreneurs and starting new businesses.) United States administrators swept away most of the ancient red tape and bureaucracy and, based on advice from Iraqi-Americans who had succeeded as entrepreneurs in the U.S., set up a system that Iraqis would recognize, and take advantage of.*

Most of this new economic activity is taking place out of sight of foreigners, because foreigners keep to a few secure locations to avoid the Baath Party gunmen who seem to be lurking everywhere. But the new economic activity is there, it’s huge and it’s growing. This is a major reason that most of Iraq is at peace. The fighting that gets so much attention in the media is restricted to a few neighborhoods in a few cities.*


Most of the violence in Iraq is more diffuse, with criminal and political gangs threatening and intimidating thousands of Iraqis each day. This is done to either facilitate a theft of some sort, or discourage cooperation with the coalition or the new Iraqi government. The Iraqi police are actively involved in this battle, but are more successful against the criminal gangs than they are against the Baath Party thugs and foreign terrorists. The Baath Party crowd uses many veterans of Saddam’s secret police and intelligence forces, and has lots of money and guns. The foreign terrorists also appear to be well funded, which helps buy them protection from, or at least avoid* detection by, the police.

Radical Shia cleric Muqtada al Sadr is up against a wall. The Shia religious leadership has told him to disband his militia and surrender to police for trial on murder charges. To emphasize their demand, the clerical leadership has remained silent as coalition troops destroy or disarm his militia units in Karbala, Baghdad and Najaf (the three cities with the al Sadr forces were strongest). Al Sadr has already called for his gunmen to rise up and attack the coalition troops, and not much happened. Al Sadr is openly disparaged by Shia Iraqis, and public demonstrations have been held to protest the brutality and lawlessness of al Sadr’s militiamen.*

Meanwhile, the Sunni Arab rebellion continues. Joint Sunni/marine patrols in Fallujah take place without much incident. But attacks on coalition targets by Sunni gunmen and al Qaeda terrorists continues throughout the Sunni areas. Once the al Sadr militias are completely gone, it’s quite likely that the battle with the Baath Party gangs will be renewed for a final campaign.


So yeah, just a few thugs don't equate a national uprising.

[Argyll]

Then why don't you go over there Weedman and tell them to stop shooting from the positions in their vicinity!!



Quit your Trolling...................................strike 1

[One?]

Sistani said (when Sadr first started fighting) that "destroying" or firing at holy sites is a red-line. Although saddam was most brutal toward shia he never touched the shrines. If you want to piss of the shia around the world go ahead and blow them up. But remember that thats the holiest city (after mecca, madina) for shia.

[Argyll]

One,
I agree,but lets cut this BS,if they chose to fight from these positions themselves,are they not desecrating that Holy ground,or is that allowed under the Shia Faith?

I'd personally hate to see any religious grounds abused like this,but they chose to engage and they will be the ones responsible for bringing the Infidels into their Holy cities will it not?

[weedman]

One,
I agree,but lets cut this BS,if they chose to fight from these positions themselves,are they not desecrating that Holy ground,or is that allowed under the Shia Faith?

I'd personally hate to see any religious grounds abused like this,but they chose to engage and they will be the ones responsible for bringing the Infidels into their Holy cities will it not?As it was said, I understand the reasons, but the US is really crossing a dangerous red line, which could negatively influence the reputation of the US among peaceful, average Shiites.

[budanski]

As it was said, I understand the reasons, but the US is really crossing a dangerous red line, which could negatively influence the reputation of the US among peaceful, average Shiites.

Give it a rest. :roll: The terrorists arent winning any hearts and minds either with public decapitations, using women and childeren as human shields and targeting of civilians .

[incubz5]

I WISH some muslim holy sites were getting damaged in the name of eradicating al Sadr and his thugs. As it is this guy is a constant headline every day because commanders are too afraid to put a hole in the dome of a mosque, much less take one out altogther w/ an Apache Hellfire strike.

al Sadr needs to be taken out now. Given the money spent every day on the forces sitting around waiting to do it, we could blow him away now and rebuild whatever mosque he's hiding in. If it's ancient, who gives a crap? It's not worth the American lives lost from trading bullets w/ his militia.

[Damian]

Sistani said (when Sadr first started fighting) that "destroying" or firing at holy sites is a red-line. Although saddam was most brutal toward shia he never touched the shrines. If you want to piss of the shia around the world go ahead and blow them up. But remember that thats the holiest city (after mecca, madina) for shia.

Fu** Sistani! Holy Sites are full of weapons so they must be destroyed.

[Uncle Sam]

Weedman, Now that you are alone, ie. no one to follow, you're not doing a very good job of it.

They are using the "holy" sites as weapons and ammo storage, cover, and a place to shoot at our guys. So, you tell me who is desecrating these "holy" sites.

[weedman]

As it was said, I understand the reasons, but the US is really crossing a dangerous red line, which could negatively influence the reputation of the US among peaceful, average Shiites.

Give it a rest. :roll: The muslims arent winning any hearts and minds either with public decapitations.And that is your and their problem.

The is no single US soldier or Muslim...

Generalization are often reasons for prejudices and prejudices are often reasons for hatred.

You also don't want to be associated with the torture incidents, do you?

[One?]

One,
I agree,but lets cut this BS,if they chose to fight from these positions themselves,are they not desecrating that Holy ground,or is that allowed under the Shia Faith?

I'd personally hate to see any religious grounds abused like this,but they chose to engage and they will be the ones responsible for bringing the Infidels into their Holy cities will it not?

No they are not taliban style. They hate the americans not because they are christian/jews (although there are muslims in the US forces) but because they see the US as an occupying force.

according to Islam you shouldn't wear shoes when you enter the mosque. When muslims entered Jerusalem back in the day they disarmed the whole army and entered the holy city without weapons. So NO they are not allowed to shoot from there. All clerics are urging them to leave the holy areas, but the US is provoking them for some reason. They were getting close to ending this BS yesterday but then the US entered Najaf so Sadr changed his mind. Just solve the issue peacefuly. Sistani is urging the mahdi army to leave the city and I'm sure they would listen to him. But if the US stays there then they wont leave anytime soon.

[One?]

I WISH some muslim holy sites were getting damaged in the name of eradicating al Sadr and his thugs. As it is this guy is a constant headline every day because commanders are too afraid to put a hole in the dome of a mosque, much less take one out altogther w/ an Apache Hellfire strike.

al Sadr needs to be taken out now. Given the money spent every day on the forces sitting around waiting to do it, we could blow him away now and rebuild whatever mosque he's hiding in. If it's ancient, who gives a crap? It's not worth the American lives lost from trading bullets w/ his militia.


THANK YOU! You just proved my point that americans think their lives are worth more than anyone else's. I thank you again.

[incubz5]

They are using the "holy" sites as weapons and ammo storage, cover, and a place to shoot at our guys. So, you tell me who is desecrating these "holy" sites.

Excellent point. Then again, these are killers who park artillery next to schools and hospitals.

[incubz5]

THANK YOU! You just proved my point that americans think their lives are worth more than anyone else's. I thank you again.

Hey dude, it's Americans out there bleeding to get these thugs. Sure, there are some Iraqis getting shot up, but if al Sadr's militia is going to be neutralized, it's US Marines that will be taking the bullets.

Frankly, killing al Sadr and his militia would be the healthiest thing for EVERYONE in that region, arab and American alike.

[One?]

THANK YOU! You just proved my point that americans think their lives are worth more than anyone else's. I thank you again.

Hey dude, it's Americans out there bleeding to get these thugs. Sure, there are some Iraqis getting shot up, but if al Sadr's militia is going to be neutralized, it's US Marines that will be taking the bullets.

Frankly, killing al Sadr and his militia would be the healthiest thing for EVERYONE in that region, arab and American alike.

He is not carrying out any terrorist attacks on arabs or US civilians or any other civilians. He is fighting the US army. If you think targeting holy sites would only piss of Sadr then you are wrong. This could cause more rage and could lead to something like 9/11 (its only an exageration to get a point across).

[Dalleer]

It rather seems to me that Sadr's "militia" chose the sites for the battles, not the US troops.

It's partly urban combat in which Sadr's guys are hold in urban areas that include mosques and other "holy structures". If Sadr's militia won't understand to pull out of the vicinity of these sorts of buildings the US has no choice but to fire.

If I'd be catching RPG and small-arms fire from a mosque, and I'd have that M1A2 Abrams behind me I wouldn't think twice about ordering the mosque as the target.

Of course, you could always order a few huge trucks with these massive loudspeakers constructed onto them near the Mosque and blast out with maximum volume:

"Attention evil militia held up in the mosque! Attention! Pull out of the mosque or we will be forced to destroy it with a TOW-2B missile! If you choose not to pull out, we have no other choice but to nuke the building!"

Yeah, right....

[incubz5]

americans think their lives are worth more than anyone else's

Yes Einstein, if I have to choose between a militiamen in Al Sadr's army biting it or a US Marine, I would pick the Al Sadr thug.

Sue me.

[incubz5]

Dalleer,

They need to hit the place with teargas-filled shells and cut them down as they run out.

[Argyll]

One,
I agree,but lets cut this BS,if they chose to fight from these positions themselves,are they not desecrating that Holy ground,or is that allowed under the Shia Faith?

I'd personally hate to see any religious grounds abused like this,but they chose to engage and they will be the ones responsible for bringing the Infidels into their Holy cities will it not?

No they are not taliban style. They hate the americans not because they are christian/jews (although there are muslims in the US forces) but because they see the US as an occupying force.

according to Islam you shouldn't wear shoes when you enter the mosque. When muslims entered Jerusalem back in the day they disarmed the whole army and entered the holy city without weapons. So NO they are not allowed to shoot from there. All clerics are urging them to leave the holy areas, but the US is provoking them for some reason. They were getting close to ending this BS yesterday but then the US entered Najaf so Sadr changed his mind. Just solve the issue peacefuly. Sistani is urging the mahdi army to leave the city and I'm sure they would listen to him. But if the US stays there then they wont leave anytime soon.

Nice interesting stuff there one.
Sistani is the main man yes?Why has he no control over Sadr,is he scared he suffers the same fate as the other guy Sadr got killed?
If Sistani was really serious why do the Shia's not simply force Sadr's Mahdi Army out,and not by gun,but with people power.
Sistani sounds like a good and descent man,but is being undermined by Sadr consistantly...........why does he put up with it?

[Dalleer]

Dalleer,

They need to hit the place with teargas-filled shells and cut them down as they run out.

Yeah, the mosque would be intact for the most part that way. I think.

[Argyll]

:lol: Whats wrong with using a wee drop o' VX?

[ibstolidude]

It appears that a fundamental differnce between Sistani and Sadr - is that Sistani realizs that he doesn't have to like the US - the coalition or the West...He simply needs to not support the violence.

[One?]

americans think their lives are worth more than anyone else's

Yes Einstein, if I have to choose between a militiamen in Al Sadr's army biting it or a US Marine, I would pick the Al Sadr thug.

Sue me.

Its a free country I don't have to sue you.



It rather seems to me that Sadr's "militia" chose the sites for the battles, not the US troops.

The US forces didn't have to enter karbala. They could of waited 2 more days till this BS ended.

Sistani seems to be the most respected ayatollah in iraq and everyone follows him. Sistani doesn't want to split the shia over something stupid, thats why he isn't using force. But sadr said more than once that he will do whatever the clerics want him to do, and he came close to do doing that yesterday or the day before.

Khoi's family agreed to drop the charges against Sadr for now, and they will continue the investigation after the election of an Iraqi government. Sadr was willing to change the mahdi army into a political party. Everything was going well, then the US took najaf.


As I said before khoi was killed because he was working witht he US and they thought that he will become a US "puppy". So sadr won't dare to kill sistani, instead he follows him.



:lol: Whats wrong with using a wee drop o' VX?

saddam did!


It appears that a fundamental differnce between Sistani and Sadr - is that Sistani realizs that he doesn't have to like the US - the coalition or the West...He simply needs to not support the violence.

exactly.

[Argyll]

Thats the trouble tho One Sadr is not following Sistani,he's ignoring him,and developing his own agenda

[incubz5]

One,

Clerics and tribal leaders don't run Iraq, we do. Just because some big wheel wants to "drop the charges" against Al Sadr doesn't mean jackknife. It's as useless as the Taliban offering to "try" Bin Laden after 9-11.

They don't get it any more than you do. As such, Al Sadr will either be in a cell or room temperature. Judging by what the Marine commander said yesterday on this issue, it's going to be very soon. Once the Marines launch an offensive, that guy is dead.

[ibstolidude]

:lol: Whats wrong with using a wee drop o' VX?
Off topic - but the US comedian Lewis Black - has a great line how since the war was about WMD, then we better find some, and frankly it doesn't matter if they are real or not; you'd think we'd have enough sense to send a couple of kids to kinkos and come back with a camel with a nuke on it's back.

[incubz5]

Backed by helicopters, American tanks charged into the center of this holy city Friday and shelled positions held by fighters loyal to a radical cleric...Fearing arrest by American troops, members of the militia loyal to cleric Muqtada al-Sadr often avoid taking their casualties to hospitals.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119907,00.html

Run rats run!!![/i]

[afrographX]

Sistani said (when Sadr first started fighting) that "destroying" or firing at holy sites is a red-line. Although saddam was most brutal toward shia he never touched the shrines. If you want to piss of the shia around the world go ahead and blow them up. But remember that thats the holiest city (after mecca, madina) for shia.

Fu** Sistani! Holy Sites are full of weapons so they must be destroyed.
word!!!! :hug: why not throw an A-bomb on the holy city, then the USA don't have to care about cqb anymore.

god damn are you really that stupid :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[Dalleer]

The US forces didn't have to enter karbala. They could of waited 2 more days till this BS ended.

Yes, but this militia of Sadr's still chooses the battlegrounds, thus it is located in urban areas.

I must admit that maybe it was a bad move to enter Karbala at this time, but the situation is raging on now. And right now people are complaining about the destruction of "holy structures" which is completely up to Sadr's militia to choose if these structures get destroyed or not.

Move someplace else and stop the collateral damage, don't fight at all, or continue like this.

Choices, choices....

[One?]

One,

Clerics and tribal leaders don't run Iraq, we do. Just because some big wheel wants to "drop the charges" against Al Sadr doesn't mean jackknife. It's as useless as the Taliban offering to "try" Bin Laden after 9-11.

They don't get it any more than you do. As such, Al Sadr will either be in a cell or room temperature. Judging by what the Marine commander said yesterday on this issue, it's going to be very soon. Once the Marines launch an offensive, that guy is dead.

thats why sadr, and half the arab world hate you :)

According the US adminstartion Sadr was supposed to be trialed by an Iraqi judge, and the same judge asked for his arrest. So if charges were dropped the US has no reason to arrest him.

Sadr is not like bin laden, and Iraq is not like afghanistan. If clerics tell iraqis to rise against the US they will, and it won't be a nice scene. Iraq has so many clerics because thats where all shia go to become clerics and learn islam. So clerics play a major role. Its like going to the vatican and asking the pope not to interfere.

[incubz5]

thats why sadr, and half the arab world hate you

ROFLOL! There are over 25 million arabs in Iraq. Are they rushing to Al Sadr's aid? Are even 1% of them taking up arms and fighting us?

Not even close!

[incubz5]

If clerics tell iraqis to rise against the US they will, and it won't be a nice scene.

Oh please. The most influential clerics are moderates and even if they weren't, we'd eradicate them and their thugs, same as Sadr. We're not going anywhere and the Iraqi people as a whole are just ducky.

[incubz5]

Hey One,

I got your "arab world" right here chief:

http://www.navyseals.com/community/articles/images/articles/688-2b.jpg

[2Sheds_Jackson]

THANK YOU! You just proved my point that americans think their lives are worth more than anyone else's. I thank you again.

I think if that was the case, we'd all be sitting at home and letting somebody else do the heavy lifting here. Hmmm now who does that sound like... :roll:

[cqbrdy]

if muslims are cowardly enough to shoot from a mosque, kill from it, stockpile weapons and ammo from it, allah will not be pleased.

if they were man enough to come out and fight, then these buildings would not be harmed.

muslims/shiites/clerics let these cowards shoot from the buildings so its their fualt too aswell that the buildings get hit.

leave the building and the building wont get hit.

easy to understand in any language.

and yes americans lives are worth more.

[Tane Angle]

I hate to say it, but entering Najaf in force, and in particular, going anywhere near the sites, much less shooting at them (though the damage could have been from Sadrists) was a horrible decision.

It will almost certainly get a lot of good people killed. I'm not saying that as an alarmist. One of the major reasons why the Badr Brigade has not engaged US forces was that the US has held back from entering their holy city in force. Imagine a non-Jew pissing on the Western Wall. This is the pretty much the holiest site in Shiitism we're talking about here, and the Shiites are very understandably defensive and proud of it.

Let me say that again-we are in grave danger of pushing Sistani to the point of ordering the forces loyal to him to engage US targets. Najaf, and in particular, the Shrine, are no-touching zones.

I've seen Shiites fight, and while I do not like generalizations in general, they have proven themselves to be skilled fighters, cunning and operating with a level of intelligence and dedication rarely seen. They are extremely smart and not to be underestimated. Make no mistake, Sistani runs Iraq. We have well over 100,000 troops in Iraq, but Sistani has a religion at his command. Our best hope against was/is Thulfiqar, and if we lose Sistani, we lose that group.

Sistani, until now, has essentially said "no comment" in regards to Sadr. He will be extremely pissed at Sadr for fighting at the Shrine, but he will also be extremely pissed at the US for not using more restraint and avoiding fighting there. We gave Sistani our word that we would not enter Najaf in force.


The most influential clerics are moderates and even if they weren't, we'd eradicate them and their thugs, same as Sadr.
After this, will they remain moderates? We just broke into their home and pissed on the couch.

And since when the heck have we eradicated Sadr? Or UBL, for that matter? Or the ZWO?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[weedman]

if muslims are cowardly enough to shoot from a mosque, kill from it, stockpile weapons and ammo from it, allah will not be pleased. Muslim != Terrorist

Islam != Terrorism

[cqbrdy]

islam does not = terrorism
i.e. muhammed ali, malcom x, some pro american athletes


but yes most terrorists are islamic. :cantbeli:

[Tane Angle]

That's a bad joke, right?

[incubz5]

Make no mistake, Sistani runs Iraq. We have well over 100,000 troops in Iraq, but Sistani has a religion at his command. Our best hope against was/is Thulfiqar, and if we lose Sistani, we lose that group.

What on earth are you talking about? L. Paul Bremmer runs Iraq. Sisatni does not have a "religion" at his command, every Iraqi in Iraq is religious and they don't all kow-tow to Sistani.

If Sistani ever, ever took an anti-US position he would be room temperature or in a cell.

Look who was yanked out of a spider hole 6 months ago. Who do you think was more powerful until the day we kicked off this war, him or Sistani?

[Argyll]

Make no mistake, Sistani runs Iraq. We have well over 100,000 troops in Iraq, but Sistani has a religion at his command. Our best hope against was/is Thulfiqar, and if we lose Sistani, we lose that group.

What on earth are you talking about? L. Paul Bremmer runs Iraq. Sisatni does not have a "religion" at his command, every Iraqi in Iraq is religious and they don't all kow-tow to Sistani.

If Sistani ever, ever took an anti-US position he would be room temperature or in a cell.

Look who was yanked out of a spider hole 6 months ago. Who do you think was more powerful until the day we kicked off this war, him or Sistani?

icubz5,
I'd seriously listen to what Tane comments on,he's in a much greater position to make these comments on than what you hear and read.
For starters you know nothing about the Spider hole incident as you put it,you might think you know,but you'd really do not know the half of it,and you never will.

If you're telling us that Paul Brenmmer "runs" Iraq,then I'm afraid he's made a serious of errors,and he then MUST be held accountable over the abuse allegations,he does not run Iraq,he's the administrator,and has his responsibilities like the rest of the CPA and the Military,if he runs Iraq then he needs to resign for the capitulation in Fallujah,and this is what he's repeating right now in Najaf and Kerbala.

I'm curious as to where your expertise in Iraq stems from,as you seem to have a firm grasp on the overall situation in a lot of your other posts?

[Trident-za]

I hate to say it, but entering Najaf in force, and in particular, going anywhere near the sites, much less shooting at them (though the damage could have been from Sadrists) was a horrible decision.

It will almost certainly get a lot of good people killed. I'm not saying that as an alarmist. One of the major reasons why the Badr Brigade has not engaged US forces was that the US has held back from entering their holy city in force. Imagine a non-Jew pissing on the Western Wall. This is the pretty much the holiest site in Shiitism we're talking about here, and the Shiites are very understandably defensive and proud of it.

Let me say that again-we are in grave danger of pushing Sistani to the point of ordering the forces loyal to him to engage US targets. Najaf, and in particular, the Shrine, are no-touching zones.

I've seen Shiites fight, and while I do not like generalizations in general, they have proven themselves to be skilled fighters, cunning and operating with a level of intelligence and dedication rarely seen. They are extremely smart and not to be underestimated. Make no mistake, Sistani runs Iraq. We have well over 100,000 troops in Iraq, but Sistani has a religion at his command. Our best hope against was/is Thulfiqar, and if we lose Sistani, we lose that group.

Sistani, until now, has essentially said "no comment" in regards to Sadr. He will be extremely pissed at Sadr for fighting at the Shrine, but he will also be extremely pissed at the US for not using more restraint and avoiding fighting there. We gave Sistani our word that we would not enter Najaf in force.


The most influential clerics are moderates and even if they weren't, we'd eradicate them and their thugs, same as Sadr.
After this, will they remain moderates? We just broke into their home and pissed on the couch.

And since when the heck have we eradicated Sadr? Or UBL, for that matter? Or the ZWO?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Damn... I was just starting to get depressed reading this thread.. and finally a glimmer of thought. Nice post Tane.

I must say that I agree with a hell of a lot of the previous posts, on an emotional level. But... I think the USA just walked into a very big, very obvious "trap". Yes, the bad guys choose the battlefield - and they choose the battlefield very carefully. The US had 2 options, both bad - but they've chosen the worst one. Is killing a few hundred or thousand bad guys worth pissing off a few hundred thousand, if not millions, of muslims?? Has Sadr received widescale support so far? No - he hasn't - but the US seems to be trying to damn hard to get him more supporters.

I realize that this post will not be popular on this forum, but I fear it's the truth. Just about every prediction made by the gung-ho and/or extremely patriotic dudes has not happened... (if you want I'll posts links to threads on this forum where some of the more respected guys predicted it would all be over by last year Novemeber or so).

Much as I wish all this "fighting talk" here reflected reality, I don't think it does. Yes, the US is doing a hell of a lot of good in Iraq, and I hope they get the chance to do more. But, if they keep doing things like this, all the good things will be for nothing. I HOPE I'm wrong...... maybe I'm being overly pessimistic again? Maybe... but so far, all my pessimistic predictions have come true, and not a single "hopeful" prediction of mine.

Edit: Can someone tell me how long the Israelis and Palestians have been fighting? I am pro-Israel, but the fact remains that that "war" is not over, how many years later? I agree, again, on an emotional level with Israeli tactics.... but I'm starting to wonder how effective they are in terms of ending the war, as opposed to just killing bad guys. Some will argue that this war won't stop easily... and thats true. Just like Iraq.... worth a thought?

[Uncle Chô]

Good trick.

The Vietcong did exactely the same thing 36 years ago.

They stocked weapons in the Imperial city of Hue then accused the Marines to have destroyed the Old City (the Palace have been already heavely damaged by an incidental fire in 1946).

In 1968, the whole world accused the USA but the truth surfaced several years later.

This was a fierce battle, house to house but no carpet bombing by the aviation that saved this beautiful city. When you see the battle pictures and go there 25 years later, you realize that much of the houses and walls are still (almost) intact.

[One?]

I realize that this post will not be popular on this forum, but I fear it's the truth.

Tane-Angel nice post.


incubz5 do you realy want the US forces to take on 3 million armed iraqis? Posting pictures of the US army and an iraqi child isn't gonna change what I think about them. I know what they are because they helped my brother personaly so I don't need you posting that BS. They are only doing what the commander in cheif is telling them to do. I don't agree with the war and probably some of the soldeirs don't. But thats what they signed up for. I don't blame them, instead I blame bush.


Back to the topic.

Tane-Angel there is another reason why the badr brigade didn't engage in any fighting so far. Hakim is part of the Iraqi council, so I guess he doesn't want to engage in any war right now. But things might detere within hours (and I hope not). Then you would have to worry about those in lebanon, pakistan, and iran and the rest of the world.

[Trident-za]

Good trick.

The Vietcong did exactely the same thing 36 years ago.

They stocked weapons in the Imperial city of Hue then accused the Marines to have destroyed the Old City (the Palace have been already heavely damaged by an incidental fire in 1946).

In 1968, the whole world accused the USA but the truth surfaced several years later.

This was a fierce battle, house to house but no carpet bombing by the aviation that saved this beautiful city. When you see the battle pictures and go there 25 years later, you realize that much of the houses and walls are still (almost) intact.

Yes, thats what I was trying to say..... if the "truth" comes out in a few years time, do you think it will matter? The US is in a Catch-22 situation, while the bad guys have the opposite - whatever the US does, the bad guys "win". And yes, you can "win" even when you lose 99% of your "troops". I'd not be suprised if Sadr's bad guys used all their heavy weapons to target religious sites. What a propoganda victory for them (and this counts for a LOT in this world).

[Argyll]

Welcome to the world of "Politicaly correct Warfare" ;)

[BlackRain]

Gee, maybe your right about not returning fire on insurgents holed up in "Holy" places in Iraq. The soldiers should just give the enemy a free pass and absorb the bullets and RPG's fired from the mosques.

We sure don't want to offend terrorists.

Maybe someone should tell your buddies the same thing!

Did you forget about the Islamic radicals attacks/plans that happened before we stepped foot in Iraq?

Bin Laden's al Qaeda organization is a loose umbrella association of radical groups and people believed to operate in dozens of countries around the world.

Long before the embassy bombings in Africa, al Qaeda members were suspected of playing a role in several attacks against U.S. interests, including the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, failed plots to kill President Clinton and the Pope, and attacks on U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia and Somalia.

According to US intelligence sources, there have been three assassination plots against the pope, all in the past five years.

Pakistani militant Abdul Hakim Murad was arrested in 1995 in Manila, in connection with a failed plot to assassinate Pope John Paul.

Maybe the radical Muslims should think about how they are offending Christians around the world?

Think Weedman, before you post!

[Trident-za]

Welcome to the world of "Politicaly correct Warfare" ;)

Yeah :( It sucks big time, but its the reality. A billion macho, "come get some" posts on this forum won't change it. The disturbing thing is that the bad guys seem to do this "politcally correct warfare" better than the coalition. How the hell is that possible????? The pentagon employs a few thousand people who do nothing but "media relations", but they are losing this war on every front except the body count one :( I find that VERY VERY worrying.

[BlackRain]

Just for the sake of conversation, the head of my USMC department in undergrad was Col. Harrington, USMC. He was the commander of marines in Hue in 1968 during Tet and it earned him a Silver Star.

He did everything possible to avoid damaging the Citadel there. However, the VC did everything the could to damage it and use civilians as shields.

[Uncle Sam]

U.S., al-Sadr forces spar over damage to shrine

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4899904/)


NAJAF, Iraq - The United States and forces loyal to a radical Shiite Muslim cleric accused each other Friday of causing minor damage to the Shrine of Imam Ali in the Iraqi city of Najaf, the holiest mosque in Shia Islam.


The dispute arose as U.S. forces intensified their fighting against the al-Mahdi militia loyal to the cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, sending tanks into Najaf’s vast cemetery to blast guerrilla positions on sacred ground in the holy city for the first time.

Qays al-Khazali, chief spokesman for al-Sadr, who has led a bloody rebellion against the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, showed the damage — four holes in the shrines golden dome — to journalists after six hours of heavy fighting.

U.S.-led forces say they have taken extreme care to try to avoid damaging Imam Ali and other holy Shiite shrines in battling al-Sadr’s militia, fearful of inflaming religious passions among the 60 percent of Iraqis who follow the Shiite faith.

Brandishing the casing of a bullet that he had wrapped in a paper tissue, al-Khazali told The Associated Press that the Americans were responsible for the damage.

“I picked this up from the shrine. Only Americans have such bullets,” he said outside al-Sadr’s office nearby.You have got to be kidding me...!!!

“They are Jews, they are Jews,” al-Mahdi militiamen screamed, alluding to the Americans. Yep, we are all Jews... :cantbeli:

But U.S. commanders accused al-Sadr’s militia of damaging the shrine, which houses the tomb of Imam Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad, whose descendants founded the Shia branch of Islam during the seventh century.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the U.S.-led coalition, said he was unaware of the damage to the shrine, but added: “I can just tell you by the looks of where we were firing and where Muqtada’s militia was firing, I would put my money that Muqtada caused it."

He said the militiamen were using religious sites “much like human shields.”

Four holes, each about 12 inches by 8 inches, were visible on the golden dome. They appeared to have been caused by machine-gun fire. Three were on one side of the dome, and the fourth was on another.

“We certainly understand the strategic significance of the Imam Ali shrine,” Kimmitt told reporters in Baghdad. “The coalition has tremendous respect for the Shia religion, the Shia Islam religion. We want to do everything we can to avoid widening this concern from Muqtada to something far greater than Muqtada.”

He added: “I would ask you to go back to Muqtada’s militia and say, ‘Why are you using the shrine to store weapons? Why are you using the shrine as a place to set up firing positions? Why are you using the shrine as a location to shoot mortar rounds at coalition forces and Iraqi forces that are inside legitimate Iraqi police stations?’ ”


Reported across Arab world
Reports of the damage to the Imam Ali shrine were widely reported across the Middle East by Arabic-language television stations.

Shawqi Mushtaq al-Khafajji, an aide to al-Sadr, said on Al-Arabiya television that the dome was struck by U.S. gunfire and that “confrontations still ongoing. We have three martyrs [dead] and five injured.”

“More is expected from the occupation forces,” he added.

Residents said al-Mahdi gunmen blocked all roads close to the shrine, barring entry to all except those with special militia badges. Civilians scurried for cover, leaving many streets empty as the call for Friday prayers rose from loudspeakers at mosques. Some families left their homes on foot to seek refuge.

Al-Sadr denounces coalition
Al-Sadr launched a rebellion against coalition forces last month. In a sermon Friday in the nearby city of Kufa, he again condemned the United States and its chief coalition partner, Britain, describing President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair as “the heads of tyranny.”

Al-Sadr said Bush and Blair had paid attention to what he described as the “fabricated" case of Nicholas Berg, the U.S. civilian who was beheaded by militants, and had ignored the suffering of Iraqis in prisons controlled by coalition troops.

He also condemned Iraqis who cooperated with the Americans and “are willing to execute the occupiers’ orders.”

Offensive in Najaf
The U.S. attack represented the strongest U.S. push yet against al-Sadr, whose forces fought intense battles with U.S. forces this week in another holy city, Karbala.

At least seven U.S. tanks thrust deep into the cemetery, a city within a city covering several square miles where Shiites from all over the world wish to be buried within sight of the sacred shrines.

They blasted suspected positions of al-Sadr’s guerrillas, who have been using the sprawling graveyard to stage hit-and-run attacks on U.S. positions on the edge of the city. Clouds of white smoke rose as shells burst among the tombs.

Al-Sadr’s office close to the shrine also took small arms fire, according to a man who answered the telephone there. The man, who refused to give his name, said he believed the shots came from rival Shiite groups opposed at al-Sadr’s presence in the city.

Guerrillas fought back with rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.

[Tane Angle]

Thanks for the defense guys. ;)

I don't like to use movie quotes in real arguments, but who here has seen "the Siege?" There is a scene towards the end where the terrorist LT says something to the effect of "Your problem is that you believe money is power. Belief is power." Then FBI agents came in and shot him dead, but not before he killed a CIA officer.

The point is, Sistani holds tremendous influence because belief is power. He has been rather neutral thus far, not alientating either side. Let's not make him choose. As Uncle Cho pointed out, we did exactly what al-Sadr wanted us to do by going into Najaf full force and opening fire there. Even if that fire took out a hundred or more Sadrist fighters, al-Sadr still wins. He wins because we acted in utter disregard to the Shiite culture.

Most of the damage, perhaps all of it, was probably caused by the Sadrists, either intentionally or unintentionally. US forces do try extremely hard to use accuracy, precision, and the minimum force necessary. But that doesn't change the perception, and perception is critical. And that doesn't change the fact that we were in the area at the time. It is insulting to even be in Najaf, much less anywhere near the Shrine.

Have a good one all, and as always, just some thoughts...

[incubz5]

For starters you know nothing about the Spider hole incident as you put it,you might think you know,but you'd really do not know the half of it,and you never will.

Oh good god, do we now have to endure some ridiculous conspiracy theory about him being planted there or some such?



If you're telling us that Paul Brenmmer "runs" Iraq,then I'm afraid he's made a serious of errors,and he then MUST be held accountable over the abuse allegations

Those who need to "be held accountable" for the abuses at Abu Ghraib are the abusers and they are. The notion that L. Paul Bremmer should in any way be involved is ridiculous.


if he runs Iraq then he needs to resign for the capitulation in Fallujah,and this is what he's repeating right now in Najaf and Kerbala.

Some powergrabbing thug with a little army wants to stick his flag on top of the mountain and you think he "needs to resign?" LOL! We'd be in serious trouble then. Also, the vast majority of those who comprise the cities you listed ARE NOT fighting. You're overestimating to say the least, fantasizing altogether to say the worst.


I'm curious as to where your expertise in Iraq stems from,as you seem to have a firm grasp on the overall situation in a lot of your other posts?

My "expertise" on Iraq? I read the news, read the accounts of soldiers there now or just returning, read about the battles, about the enemy, use common sense to see that over 25 million Iraqis are humming along while a few very bad eggs make waves and headlines. This war is a total success and the country is fine. There is no civil war, no ethnic cleansing, only some little chieftans who are screaming for attention and power and they'll be brushed away.

[Trident-za]

My "expertise" on Iraq? I read the news, read the accounts of soldiers there now or just returning, read about the battles, about the enemy, use common sense to see that over 25 million Iraqis are humming along while a few very bad eggs make waves and headlines. This war is a total success and the country is fine. There is no civil war, no ethnic cleansing, only some little chieftans who are screaming for attention and power and they'll be brushed away.

You're a very optimistic guy, and I hope you're right. But, I think you are forgetting that few bad eggs is all it takes.... How much pressure is the Bush administration under because of a few "bad eggs"? What happens if the current activity in Najaf makes more bad eggs? And, as pointed out by many, Fallujah is not over yet... so that situation might still ruin a few people's day.

To some extent I agree with your comments... I'm just less certain of how much of an issue a few "bad eggs" is..... time will tell, I'm sure.

[Tane Angle]

There is no civil war, no ethnic cleansing, only some little chieftans who are screaming for attention and power and they'll be brushed away.

A civil war, or a popular campaign against US and allied forces in Iraq is exactly what a lot of people are trying to prevent. Sadly, this incident pushed us one step closer to such a travesty.

The Shiites have the money and the guns to wage a war. There is no shortage of outsiders willing to support, supply, and train them. They have the intelligence to fight wars skillfully. They have the belief that allows them to fight as they do. They have the population. And many feel that they have the unity, if Sistani demands it.

We're running on limited time here, trying to prevent disaster. Playing into Sadr's hands pushed the clock up against us even more.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Argyll]

My "expertise" on Iraq? I read the news, read the accounts of soldiers there now or just returning, read about the battles, about the enemy, use common sense to see that over 25 million Iraqis are humming along while a few very bad eggs make waves and headlines. This war is a total success and the country is fine. There is no civil war, no ethnic cleansing, only some little chieftans who are screaming for attention and power and they'll be brushed away.

Well mate Tane and I were in Iraq 2 weeks ago,and both are returning thre in the next 2-3 weeks,Tane perhaps sooner,and eyes on the ground are far better than eyes in a newspaper ;)

As for the spider hole thing,no conspiracy theories,you just don't know what went down that night,and it was not the same reported in the media,lets say I'm more privvy to OPSEC stuff than you are ;)

Don't get me wrong mate,I can see your passionate about this whole thing,but don't let sentiment cloud your judgement,I and Tane were there when Fallujah was almost removed from the map,so perhaps listening to Tane is not such a bad idea he really does have an ear to the ground in Iraq.

[incubz5]

What happens if the current activity in Najaf makes more bad eggs?

Oh for crying out loud. Fallujah has a population of 500,000 people, Najaf has 550,000 people, and Kerbala 572,300 people. What percentage of this million and a half plus are warmongers willing to risk their own lives to spill American blood?

Come on!!!! The failure of al Sadr and his bunch is their utter inability to get something going. No one wants it! Believe it or not, most people just want to go about their lives, raise their children, live in their homes. It's ridiculous for you or the moderator to qualify the almost 2 million people in that area as some kind of hardcore militia just waiting to be born.

[Trident-za]

My "expertise" on Iraq? I read the news, read the accounts of soldiers there now or just returning, read about the battles, about the enemy, use common sense to see that over 25 million Iraqis are humming along while a few very bad eggs make waves and headlines. This war is a total success and the country is fine. There is no civil war, no ethnic cleansing, only some little chieftans who are screaming for attention and power and they'll be brushed away.

Well mate Tane and I were in Iraq 2 weeks ago,and both are returning thre in the next 2-3 weeks,Tane perhaps sooner,and eyes on the ground are far better than eyes in a newspaper ;)

As for the spider hole thing,no conspiracy theories,you just don't know what went down that night,and it was not the same reported in the media,lets say I'm more privvy to OPSEC stuff than you are ;)

Don't get me wrong mate,I can see your passionate about this whole thing,but don't let sentiment cloud your judgement,I and Tane were there when Fallujah was almost removed from the map,so perhaps listening to Tane is not such a bad idea he really does have an ear to the ground in Iraq.

;) Hi mate, hope you and Tane both keep safe on your next "round" to Iraq. You raise a big issue - many people let sentiment get in the way of rationale thought. How many bad decisions in the world's history have been because of emotive responsives?

Tane Angles' posts are ALWAYS worth listening to - one of the few who can speak with both experience and non-emotional thought. And you do the same Argyll (as long as Helex isn't invovled ;) ) Good to have both you guys here, keeps the rambos under control.

[Argyll]

What happens if the current activity in Najaf makes more bad eggs?

Oh for crying out loud. Fallujah has a population of 500,000 people, Najaf has 550,000 people, and Kerbala 572,300 people. What percentage of this million and a half plus are warmongers willing to risk their own lives to spill American blood?

Come on!!!! The failure of al Sadr and his bunch is their utter inability to get something going. No one wants it! Believe it or not, most people just want to go about their lives, raise their children, live in their homes. It's ridiculous for you or the moderator to qualify the almost 2 million people in that area as some kind of hardcore militia just waiting to be born.

a damn site more than you'd imagine,and I'd hate to be there if it did happen,whats more it's more ridiculous to make such statement from your comfy wee house,when Tane has been and is going out there again,where's your recruiment papers seeing as you feel so strongly about this?
Again your expertise in Iraqi affairs has shown you to be well up there with the current affairs,so you know what nearly 2 million Iraqis will do if you leveled Najaf?.You're over reacting and becoming very offensive in your nature.

[Tane Angle]

Thanks, Argyll and Trident-za. :hug: Real men hug. :D

I've spent close to thirty years studying the Middle East professionally, over fifteen (collectively) of those years heavily involving Shiites. I've spent time in most of the countries in the Muslim world. I respect them and their culture. But I don't want to piss them off. The same goes for other cultures and religions. But especially Shiites. Them and Scots, you don't want to piss off Argyll. Hmm...maybe I should reconsider hugging him then.

[Argyll]

Thanks, Argyll. :hug: Real men hug. :D

I've spent close to thirty years studying the Middle East professionally, over fifteen (collectively) of those years heavily involving Shiites. I've spent time in most of the countries in the Muslim world. I respect them and their culture. But I don't want to piss them off. The same goes for other cultures and religions. But especially Shiites. Them and Scots, you don't want to piss off Argyll. Hmm...maybe I should reconsider hugging him then.

So what you still no **** mate ;) :hug:

[Trident-za]

What happens if the current activity in Najaf makes more bad eggs?

Oh for crying out loud. Fallujah has a population of 500,000 people, Najaf has 550,000 people, and Kerbala 572,300 people. What percentage of this million and a half plus are warmongers willing to risk their own lives to spill American blood?

Come on!!!! The failure of al Sadr and his bunch is their utter inability to get something going. No one wants it! Believe it or not, most people just want to go about their lives, raise their children, live in their homes. It's ridiculous for you or the moderator to qualify the almost 2 million people in that area as some kind of hardcore militia just waiting to be born.

How many bad eggs were involved in 9/11? I agree that al Sadr is struggling to get going, so to speak - it just pisses me off to the coalition trying to give him a helping hand in this regard. If there are so few bad eggs in Najaf, why bother to go in there with tanks and helicopter gunships? Surely, if its such a non-issue the US could ignore it?

[Tane Angle]

How many bad eggs were involved in 9/11?
Excellent point, my friend.


If there are so few bad eggs in Najaf, why bother to go in there with tanks and helicopter gunships? Surely, if its such a non-issue the US could ignore it?
Another great point.

By the way, I'm not that emotionless or consistently intelligent in my posts, but thanks for the kind words.

[incubz5]

Well mate Tane and I were in Iraq 2 weeks ago,and both are returning thre in the next 2-3 weeks,Tane perhaps sooner,and eyes on the ground are far better than eyes in a newspaper

This is incidental when you start making ridiculous statements. Just because you've seen a place has nothing to do with your ability to make intelligent judgements about it or what's going on there. Judging from your last post, three cities w/ upwards of 2 million people are "capitulating"...which is total BS.


As for the spider hole thing,no conspiracy theories,you just don't know what went down that night,and it was not the same reported in the media,lets say I'm more privvy to OPSEC stuff than you are

No, you're not. Hussein was bagged by the Task Force sent in to get him after some relatives sang like canaries. I would venture to guess you're not "privvy" to anything even remotely top secret and that there is no secrecy here regardless, anymore than there was some "secrecy" involved in bagging his sons. We looked, they hid, we found.

[incubz5]

How many bad eggs were involved in 9/11?

Yes, and those bad eggs were armed with American jumbo jets and were financed by a global terror network and had trained for their mission for years. To suggest that a few (or even a hundred) Iraqis armed w/ AK-47s are even remotely going to inflict the same damage is laughable and crazy.

[Tane Angle]

Not capitulating. In danger of becoming extremely pissed off. Becoming. We're talking about what might happen in the coming days and weeks, not about what has happened over the past year. And with good reason, those are my friends, and my men and women, who will pay the price if things go wrong. I do not want to tell a wife or a husband or a parent that their loved one was killed in action in something that could have been prevented had we walked just a little more softly. Teddy Roosevelt was a smart man on that.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Trident-za]

Damn, incubz5

These guys know more than you'll ever know about Iraq. Why are you arguing with them?

There is a bit more to the "spider hole" incident than you know - it's nowhere near as clear cut as you make it out to be. It's like me arguing with you over the layout of your house, which I've never seen...

The point is, you don't need the entire city to be anti-US for it to be a problem. Can the world afford an extra 20 guys who are as determined and fanatical as the guys who flew into the Twin Towers?

[Trident-za]

Thanks, Argyll and Trident-za.

If I ever have the money (soon, hopefully :)) I'll fly over to see both Tane and Argyll any day of the week - beers on me, a bit wary of the hugging thing, though ;)

[incubz5]

In danger of becoming extremely pissed off. Becoming. We're talking about what might happen in the coming days and weeks, not about what has happened over the past year

Riiiiiiiiggghhhhtttttt.

How many fighters out of the 2 million people in that region are with al Sadr right now?

300.

Persepective please!!!!


These guys know more than you'll ever know about Iraq. Why are you arguing with them?

Good god will you please make an intelligent comment for once!


There is a bit more to the "spider hole" incident than you know - it's nowhere near as clear cut as you make it out to be

No. You're both lying posers. It's not any more complicated than that. You're fantasizing you have some "secret information" about Hussein's capture. You don't beacuse there isn't any, and even if there were you most certainly wouldn't be blabbing that you know something. What a joke!


The point is, you don't need the entire city to be anti-US for it to be a problem. Can the world afford an extra 20 guys who are as determined and fanatical as the guys who flew into the Twin Towers?

Oh please! That's the whole point. We're taking them out right now, and we're doing it in Iraq.

[Uncle Chô]

The Shiites have the money and the guns to wage a war. There is no shortage of outsiders willing to support, supply, and train them. They have the intelligence to fight wars skillfully.
I have no military skills but this is what surprises me the most when I have a carefull look at daily pictures (thanks to He219 ;)) and some videos on ******* TV for a few weeks. Those guys seem to be very confident and much more organised than their Palestinian counterparts. They look much more professional in their behaviour (the way they move, the way they handle their weapons, the way they cover each others etc). To me they are no "insurgents" or "rebels" but real soldiers (wich some sources said they really are from the former Army).

[Argyll]

Well mate Tane and I were in Iraq 2 weeks ago,and both are returning thre in the next 2-3 weeks,Tane perhaps sooner,and eyes on the ground are far better than eyes in a newspaper

This is incidental when you start making ridiculous statements. Just because you've seen a place has nothing to do with your ability to make intelligent judgements about it or what's going on there. Judging from your last post, three cities w/ upwards of 2 million people are "capitulating"...which is total BS.

Oh compared yours,so you are the all seeing eye in Iraq,let me see,hmmm you do recieve the Intelligence briefings from the CPA everynight do you?........silly me off course you do,you seem to have it all figured out,why wouldn't you know all the Intelligence and the work that goes on behind the scenes,how could I have been so stupid :cantbeli:


As for the spider hole thing,no conspiracy theories,you just don't know what went down that night,and it was not the same reported in the media,lets say I'm more privvy to OPSEC stuff than you are

No, you're not. Hussein was bagged by the Task Force sent in to get him after some relatives sang like canaries. I would venture to guess you're not "privvy" to anything even remotely top secret and that there is no secrecy here regardless, anymore than there was some "secrecy" involved in bagging his sons. We looked, they hid, we found.

Yes I am,considering I have close friends who are with that Task Force,with whom I shared a few drinks with only 2 weeks ago,and had a look at some of his "snaps",I'd say that makes me in a far better position to comment on that incident than you,your anology of what happened is a crock of **** for starters,there are some here on this site who are also privvy to the information,and they know fine I'm not talking Bull.I don't need to prove myself.......................you on the other hand...........well only you can answer that.

Like I said you're arguing for the sake of arguing,and not listening to those who are in a better position to comment on,and I'm talking about Tane here.
Go and get yourself a cold beer from the fridge,sit down for 5 minutes and chill,and take a deep breath and actually think about some of the stuff you posted in this topic.

[Tane Angle]

Along the lines of what Trident-za just pointed out, the Sadrists don't need flight training or a wide-bodied jet. All they need is a truck or van, one or two skirmisher cars/motorcycles, four to ten guys, and a load of explosives.

I saw the damage and the devastation such attacks can wreak in Lebanon at three major bombing sites, as well as many smaller ones. I worked the wreckage. The Marine Barracks bomb was believed to be the largest man-made, non-nuclear explosion ever to that point in history. That is exactly my concern here-that we will be looking at similar attacks if we don't watch it.

It is worth noting that the US Marines, French paratroopers, and IDF were all welcomed initially as liberators in Lebanon. Then they weren't. Know what sparked the Shiite attacks on the IDF? An IDF convoy tried to drive through a ceremony on the holiest day of the year for Shiites. They insulted the Shiites, ignoring their culture. We're trying to learn from that mistake.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[incubz5]

Hey dude, I've been in a military family (uncle runs security at NAS in Fla), had two friends who were SEALs (one dead and one injured in Kuwait during Gulf War I), a cousin who made Airborne...let's just say that I've spent time on bases, spent substantial time with SEALs...and if I've observed one thing, it's this...

The people who say the crap like what you're saying...they never, ever are right. They're posers. There was no secret subterfuge regarding Hussein's capture. That entire Task Force of hundreds of men are not gagged beacuse it was staged or anything of the sort.

We captured him as soon as we could. It's as simple as that. No one is hiding anything, no one is lying.

Except you and your the other poster peddling this BS.

[Argyll]

Tane mate,
Lets lock this one,we're dealing with a flamer who has not put one single thought into the crap he's posting,he's obviously some kind of expert in the region,and has all the answer written on a postage stamp.

We do not have to justify ourselves or our backgrounds to some snot nosed kid,with more spots on his face than brain cells!

[Trident-za]

No. You're both lying posers. It's not any more complicated than that.

And you know this from what news source? Spoken to anyone involved?


Oh please! That's the whole point. We're taking them out right now, and we're doing it in Iraq.

This is true, and nobody can dispute it - the point is: is for everyone 1 you take out, how many do you create?

The only "nice" thing about this argument is that time will tell us the answer, irrespective of bull****. Two years from now, we will know whether your optimistic stuff is more true than the comments you are disputing. Damn, if you are right, I'll fly over and buy YOU a beer. I really hope you are right.... but I supsect that the guys who have info other than " the news" know a bit more.....

[Dalleer]

Oh no, this one's getting locked...

[Tane Angle]

You're both lying posers.

Perhaps we should call it a Saigon and surrender the conversation over? I have a plane to catch real soon and well, with all due respect and no offense, sir, but I don't really care if you think I'm a lying poser. My three Druze-Italian son's might disagree. And so might they're birth parents; I served with both of them before they passed away. So might the friends I have served with. But oh well, I don't really care if you feel that I am a lying poser.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Argyll]

Hey dude, I've been in a military family (uncle runs security at NAS in Fla), had two friends who were SEALs (one dead and one injured in Kuwait during Gulf War I), a cousin who made Airborne...let's just say that I've spent time on bases, spent substantial time with SEALs...and if I've observed one thing, it's this...

The people who say the crap like what you're saying...they never, ever are right. They're posers. There was no secret subterfuge regarding Hussein's capture. That entire Task Force of hundreds of men are not gagged beacuse it was staged or anything of the sort.

We captured him as soon as we could. It's as simple as that. No one is hiding anything, no one is lying.

Except you and your the other poster peddling this BS.

and this makes you an expert.............? rofl rofl
You know Jack **** buddy,you're not listening ,I was in their camp picking up ammo,...................god you're making me laugh so much I might need surgery to get my sides sewn up again rofl ,some of the guys I work with were recently decorated in a closed door presentation at Buck house,but I know nothing......... rofl ..................go back to playing counterstrike !

[Tane Angle]

PS: Is the other guy me? Because I haven't said a thing about Hussein's capture. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about it because I wasn't involved, and I haven't asked anyone.

And Kilt-man, if you want to lock it, or just leave it alone, sounds good to me. I was seriously considering getting pissed and saying "How dare you call me a poser! Ever been in half the places I have?" and giving a detailed history of me, but I figured it wasn't worth it. Stay safe, bud.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[ibstolidude]

So what you still no **** mate ;) :hug: - could you translate that into English please?

lol !!

[ibstolidude]

I was seriously considering getting pissed and saying "How dare you call me a poser! Ever been in half the places I have?" and giving a detailed history of me, but I figured it wasn't worth it. Stay safe, bud.

BS - post your SF86 and full EPSQ!!!

You owe no-one here any explaination.