Turkey may cut support to US over Armenia bill - MP

[Snoshi]

Turkey may cut logistic support to US troops in Iraq if the US Congress backs a bill branding as genocide the 1915 massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks, a senior ruling AK Party lawmaker was quoted as saying on Monday.
Congress's Foreign Affairs Committee is expected to approve on Wednesday a bill on the genocide issue and speaker Nancy Pelosi, a known supporter of the Armenian cause, could then decide to bring it to the House floor for a vote. (*******)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3457499,00.html

[Sharp]

These Turkish indeed know where to hit.

[Friendofall]

Well I say let the Turks alienate them selves from the West I don’t even think they should be part of NATO my self the Turks bring their own troubles on them selves if they want to alienate their only allies when they are surrounded by hostile neighbors on all sides let them.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Let historians to make their job instead of using politicians...It is not important and clearly, Turkey will never accept claims that had never done.

Politics,politicians...And of Course, no any USA Admin (now, Bush) will accept Armenian Bill, never done before,never will in the future. Turkey is a very crucial country and no any US President can lose him for any bill.

Dreams and realities...



regards,
CDTRF

[achilles]

Politics,politicians...And of Course, no any USA Admin (now, Bush) will accept Armenian Bill, never done before,never will in the future. Turkey is a very crucial country and no any US President can lose him for any bill.

I believe that they will eventually pass the bill and the Armenian Genocide will be officially recognized. Many individual States have recognized it already.

CD, dont forget that the US is more important to you than you are to the Americans. And thats the way it is.
"Threatening" them is not a very prudent approach.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I believe that they will eventually pass the bill and the Armenian Genocide will be officially recognized. Many individual States have recognized it already.

CD, dont forget that the US is more important to you than you are to the Americans. And thats the way it is.
"Threatening" them is not a very prudent approach.


Achilles (hi mate, long time), no any importance for our side to see you in acceptance by one sided. Turkey is position is clear on this issue that "we will never accept claims that is not proved by world-historians with consencus.*"

Politicians take decisions, now this one can be one of them but I again,no any President of USA can accept it..if it is now, then again nothing chance for us. Politics, policies,politicians...No one cares many genocides in the world by USA and Europeans, so what is new here for us?

Politics,politicians... p-) and the other thing, Turkey-USA relations is more important than USA-Turkey relations...Yes we discuss it nowadays in Turkey...there are other ways in life, if it goes same like after our "NO to USA from Turkish lands for IRAQ war desicion"...it is a decision poltics,but yes it is still politics...


regards,
CDTRF

[achilles]

Achilles (hi mate, long time), no any importance for our side to see you in acceptance by one sided. Turkey is position is clear on this issue that "we will never accept claims that is not proved by world-historians with consencus.*"

Mate, there is no global consensus about practically any historical issue. There will always be historians favoring one side as opposed to others who advocate another side of the same story. I believe that a "fact" is something that is broadly recognized and corroborated by sufficient historical/scientific evidence.


Politicians take decisions, now this one can be one of them but I again,no any President of USA can accept it..if it is now, then again nothing chance for us. Politics, policies,politicians...No one cares many genocides in the world by USA and Europeans, so what is new here for us?

Of course both Americans and Europeans are responsible for genocides / large-scale massacres. What differentiates Turkey regarding that matter is its persistence in denying things or sweeping facts under the carpet.

I believe that it would be beneficial even for Turkey to eventually admit and recognize her past, if you are about to become part of the European family.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Mate, there is no global consensus about practically any historical issue. There will always be historians favoring one side as opposed to others who advocate another side of the same story. I believe that a "fact" is something that is broadly recognized and corroborated by sufficient historical/scientific evidence.



Of course both Americans and Europeans are responsible for genocides / large-scale massacres. What differentiates Turkey regarding that matter is its persistence in denying things or sweeping facts under the carpet.

I believe that it would be beneficial even for Turkey to eventually admit and recognize her past, if you are about to become part of the European family.



Mate, is it a European accession rule to enter EU? If it is, is it new? p-) So,should EU will accept Rwanda and other genocides of France and UK by the European parlimentos and USA states? No? why?...

On the other hand, we dont sweep under carpet, we also accept massacres, but one difference from the both side...but you still want to look at it from one side...There are Turkish massacres and Armenian massacres, but you just want to accept only one side, why?

You say there is no global consensus..but how about Jewish Genocide? isnt there a concensus?

[achilles]

Mate, is it a European accession rule to enter EU? If it is, is it new? p-) So,should EU will accept Rwanda and other genocides of France and UK by the European parlimentos and USA states? No? why?...

To my knowledge, France has no direct responsibility for the Genocide in Rwanda. The "West" did not work hard to prevent the massacres, however the killings took place between Hutus and Tutsis. Rwanda's 2 major tribes.


On the other hand, we dont sweep under carpet, we also accept massacres, but one difference from the both side...but you still want to look at it from one side...There are Turkish massacres and Armenian massacres, but you just want to accept only one side, why?

Unfortunately you dont admit what you did to the Christian populations of the Ottoman Empire. I have yet to meet a French who denies that his country committed wholesale massacres in Algeria. The Americans and Spaniards do not deny the slaughtering of native Americans.

Thats the difference between Turkey and other countries who committed similar crimes. Hell, the Germans admitted the Jewish Holocaust.



You say there is no global consensus..but how about Jewish Genocide? isnt there a concensus?

There are always "historians" denying the facts and distoring the numbers. The Jewish Genocide does not escape that pattern.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Unfortunately you dont admit what you did to the Christian populations of the Ottoman Empire. I have yet to meet a French who denies that his country committed wholesale massacres in Algeria. The Americans and Spaniards do not deny the slaughtering of native Americans.




Is there an other agenda? Whats Christian population agenda while we are writing Armenian one? joke? a new deal? bill? Achilles, the situation is well understood and sorry it doesn't go anywhere like this and I will not a toy for you to say everything what you think...

Yeah, we are evil, you are angel...Politics,policies,polticians...


best wishes,
CDTRF

[gaijinsamurai]

Hopefully, the US Congress with do the right thing, and follow their conscience on this.......

[MichaelF]

An anti-war Congress backs a Bill likely to cause an Ally to withdraw logistical support important to the conduct of said War?

Never!!!

The "Armenian Issue" is a cover for something that the Democrats are actually interested in.

[achilles]

Is there an other agenda? Whats Christian population agenda while we are writing Armenian one? joke? a new deal? bill? Achilles, the situation is well understood and sorry it doesn't go anywhere like this and I will not a toy for you to say everything what you think...


All i am saying is that apart from Armenians, way too many Greeks and Assyrians died. Its all over decent history books.

Lets leave it to that. You will deny everything i say and we will end up in the middle of nowhere once more.

[Ordie]

Question: How many Turkish Americans vote in the United States compared to the Armenian-Americans?

All politics are local my friend.

[ViktorNavorski]

Question: How many Turkish Americans vote in the United States compared to the Armenian-Americans?

All politics are local my friend.True dat, though 40 of the 50 states have already recognize the genocide. So probably smoother sailing for the bill in the Senate.

[Ordie]

True dat, though 40 of the 50 states have already recognize the genocide. So probably smoother sailing for the bill in the Senate.

The Armenian diaspora strikes back.

[number nine]

Turkey may cut logistic support to US troops in Iraq if the US Congress backs a bill branding as genocide the 1915 massacres of Armenians by Ottoman Turks, a senior ruling AK Party lawmaker was quoted as saying on Monday.
Congress's Foreign Affairs Committee is expected to approve on Wednesday a bill on the genocide issue and speaker Nancy Pelosi, a known supporter of the Armenian cause, could then decide to bring it to the House floor for a vote. (*******)

May I point that any legislation which is retroactive is against the spirit of law (and in almost all cases unlawful too).

I may do something today which is legal, and if that is illegal tomorrow, I cannot be liable. In that light,I see US bill as form of exerting pressure upon Turkey for some reason. Do Turks need to sense any guilt for something that was not done by them and was not even illegal? In the same manner, should we now label Indian wars in the USA or various wars versus natives and British Empire such as Matabele and Aro wars as genocide? I don't think so. But Turkey is not an exception.

All perpetrators died long ago. What is the f... point?

[Clearday-TRForce]

May I point that any legislation which is retroactive is against the spirit of law (and in almost all cases unlawful too).

I may do something today which is legal, and if that is illegal tomorrow, I cannot be liable. In that light,I see US bill as form of exerting pressure upon Turkey for some reason. Do Turks need to sense any guilt for something that was not done by them and was not even illegal? In the same manner, should we now label Indian wars in the USA or various wars versus natives and British Empire such as Matabele and Aro wars as genocide? I don't think so. But Turkey is not an exception.

All perpetrators died long ago. What is the f... point?


Exactly, mate, the f..point is politics...Should take Armenian votes and support in the states, a political movement...no one cares armenian diaspora in senato but yes cares votes, support. If there were over 1 ml Turks in US, there would not a case for senato.

According to Turkish Embassy sources of US,in 2006 the number of Turks who is living in USA is approximately 200.000 around. In Turkey 77 mls, in Europe 7-8 mls, in Asian (included Russia) part approximately 100-110 mls (25 mls Azeri Turks in Iran).

but,Worldwide, the Armenian population is estimated at 8-9 million, with 2 million living in the USA ***, one million in Russia, and the rest divided between 60 countries, among the most populated by Armenians France, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, Georgia, Canada, Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. Estimated 60% of the total eight million Armenians lives outside Armenia in 60 countries.



Sum up; Armenian population who is living in USA is 10 times bigger than Turks in USA. So it reflects the politics and policies of local states.



regards,
CDTRF

[achilles]

May I point that any legislation which is retroactive is against the spirit of law (and in almost all cases unlawful too).

I may do something today which is legal, and if that is illegal tomorrow, I cannot be liable. In that light,I see US bill as form of exerting pressure upon Turkey for some reason. Do Turks need to sense any guilt for something that was not done by them and was not even illegal? In the same manner, should we now label Indian wars in the USA or various wars versus natives and British Empire such as Matabele and Aro wars as genocide? I don't think so. But Turkey is not an exception.

All perpetrators died long ago. What is the f... point?


So, genocides were "legal" back then, whatever that means? (!!!) Or ethically acceptable?....give us a break here.....

Your post does not honour all those millions of people who died due to sick practices of certain groups of people, the Turks included.

Aknowledging your past makes you more decent and helps you move forward.
Currently, Turkey is trapped in a denial fortress which does not exactly promote her interests.


And Clearday, i think your assessment that half the planet's population is made up of Turks is a bit stretched.

[Clearday-TRForce]

So, genocides were "legal" back then, whatever that means? (!!!) Or ethically acceptable?....give us a break here.....

Your post does not honour all those millions of people who died due to sick practices of certain groups of people, the Turks included.

Aknowledging your past makes you more decent and helps you move forward.
Currently, Turkey is trapped in a denial fortress which does not exactly promote her interests.


And Clearday, i think your assessment that half the planet's population is made up of Turks is a bit stretched.

world pop: 6,5 bl.

sorry mate, politics,politicians...no more.

[little icebear]

And Clearday, i think your assessment that half the planet's population is made up of Turks is a bit stretched.


Well, if you also count Norwegians and English as Germans, he might be right! :lol::lol::lol:

[achilles]

world pop: 6,5 bl.

sorry mate, politics,politicians...no more.

I know the world population mate, i was just being sarcastic to your comment about a few hundred million Turks all over the world. Weird numbers you gave us there....anyway, none of importance... lets move on...

[BoBo_13]

I know the world population mate, i was just being sarcastic to your comment about a few hundred million Turks all over the world. Weird numbers you gave us there....anyway, none of importance... lets move on...


The numbers he gave are correct mate.

Just research and you will understand. Look in history and you will see that we rulled all of middle asia.

Turkmenistan, azerbeycan, kazakistan etc these are all Turks all so called Turic people who speak the Turkish language

[Clearday-TRForce]

I know the world population mate, i was just being sarcastic to your comment about a few hundred million Turks all over the world. Weird numbers you gave us there....anyway, none of importance... lets move on...



I know it is weird numbers for not hearing these numbers before. It is very important for us...and I dont care what importance for you.




best wishes,
CDTRF

[valtrex]

The numbers he gave are correct mate.

Just research and you will understand. Look in history and you will see that we rulled all of middle asia.

Turkmenistan, azerbeycan, kazakistan etc these are all Turks all so called Turic people who speak the Turkish language
Sorry mate to wake you up your dreams, but just because the Kazakhs or the Uzbeks or the Turkmens speak Turkic (and not Turkish) languages, doesn't mean they're Turks (for the Azeris it's another story). Just like the Norwegians, the Swedes, the Danes, the English speak Germanic languages but they're not Germans

[BoBo_13]

Sorry mate to wake you up your dreams, but just because the Kazakhs or the Uzbeks or the Turkmens speak Turkic (and not Turkish) languages, doesn't mean they're Turks (for the Azeris it's another story). Just like the Norwegians, the Swedes, the Danes, the English speak Germanic languages but they're not Germans

Ahaha :)
You think your smart by your not

They are all Turks mate, real Turks

Let me help you out abit on google type Turk history and see where we come from.

So Go and get your facts right befor you come and try to teach me my own history which i knw of the back of my head.

Aint got time for ignorrant people who hasnt got a clue about Turk People history !

[number nine]

So, genocides were "legal" back then, whatever that means? (!!!)

Indeed? Why was US Congress silent back then? And if that was a crime, who was liable? Was it illegal back then, tell me, when nobody was liable for it?


Or ethically acceptable?....give us a break here.....

Now that is something I didn't say! But however, if something is ethically unacceptable, it is not automatically illegal. Look at Holy inquisition. It was perfectly legal in the past. Or colonial wars versus "savages".



Your post does not honour all those millions of people who died due to sick practices of certain groups of people, the Turks included.

Plain and simple, why it should? Enough is for me to acknowledge an atrocity happened. Should I cry over victims of the Holy inquisition as well? What can I change?.



Aknowledging your past makes you more decent and helps you move forward.

That is not a past of Turkish buddy who posted here. It is not his past. That is my point. Why he have to acknowledge?



Currently, Turkey is trapped in a denial fortress which does not exactly promote her interests.

Nations as a whole cannot be held liable for crimes commited by government! Are Germans as a whole guilty for WWII Holocaust? Including those that were in the cradle back then?

[valtrex]

Ahaha :)
You think your smart by your not

They are all Turks mate, real Turks

Let me help you out abit on google type Turk history and see where we come from.

So Go and get your facts right befor you come and try to teach me my own history which i knw of the back of my head.

Aint got time for ignorrant people who hasnt got a clue about Turk People history !
ha, I'm ignorant? OK, if you say so...
Now could you please tell me who are the inheritors of the Göktürk Khanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks) & what's the difference between the western (Ucok) tribes & the eastern Oguz tribes?
...btw nationalism & ethnology are bad friends

[BoBo_13]

ha, I'm ignorant? OK, if you say so...
Now could you please tell me who are the inheritors of the Göktürk Khanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks) & what's the difference between the western (Ucok) tribes & the eastern Oguz tribes?
...btw nationalism & ethnology are bad friends


Mate i cant realy understand.

You just proved me right by giving that link out :)

Taking into consideration that trvaling between continents took 100s of years, whilst travelling the huns and befor the mongol empires lived and put famillies on the countries they conqured, where finaly stopped in Europe, Turkey anatolia.

What your saying about the gokturks, they came after the huns had fallen, so the gokturks share the same roots.

So back to what i was saying the Kazakhs the Uzbeks the Turkmens the Azeris are all from the same ancestors and roots. Which are huns and mongols.

Actually some say they are the real Turks.

Becuase Turkey was mixed after wars with the byzantine europe, ottomans, etc

[number nine]

I'm sorry mate, they are no more Turks then Danes are Germans or Poles Russians.

By the way, do you really don't know you must belong to my glorious nation, because my ancestors are yours too, no matter how you put it, either Adam and Eve, or stone age cavemen?

:D

[little icebear]

Despite popular (ethnocentric and nationalist pseudo-scientific) wishful thinking, the huns were no Turks. (Although you share some blood.)
I know, it is written in some books - but only in Turkey. p-)

But what has all this to do with to topic?

[gaijinsamurai]

In the latest news, the Bush Administration is urging Congress not to support the resolution, out of fear of Turkish retaliation.

Looks like a lot of Armenian-American dollars and influence will go to Democratic campaign coffers, unless GOP candidates further distance themselves from Bush.

[Ordie]

In the latest news, the Bush Administration is urging Congress not to support the resolution, out of fear of Turkish retaliation.

Looks like a lot of Armenian-American dollars and influence will go to Democratic campaign coffers, unless GOP candidates further distance themselves from Bush.

In California, many of the Armenian-American lawmakers are Republicans.

[gaijinsamurai]

True, but this may be more important to them than tax cuts or gay marriage. Most middle-aged or senior Armenian-Americans are people who's own parents or grandparents survived the massacres.

[Snoshi]

USA passed the resolution

[AlterMega]

It's just going to get vetoed.

[Ordie]

It's just going to get vetoed.

There goes the Armenian vote for the GOP.

[LaoSexMachine]

US bill on Armenia moves forward
A bill recognising the killing of Armenians in Ottoman times as genocide has cleared its first hurdle in the US Congress despite Turkish warnings. It passed through the House Foreign Affairs Committee by 27 votes to 21 - the first step towards holding a vote in the House of Representatives.
Turkish President Abdullah Gul reacted swiftly to the result, saying the move was "unacceptable" and had no validity.
President George W Bush had urged the committee not to approve the bill.
"Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in Nato and in the global war on terror," the US president said.
Turkey is a regional operational hub for the US military, and some suggest access to Incirlik airbase, or other supply lines crucial to US forces in Iraq or Afghanistan, could be cut in response.
'Invalid'
After the vote, the US Undersecretary of State, Nicholas Burns, told the BBC that the Bush administration was "deeply disappointed".
"The United States recognizes the immense suffering of the Armenian people due to mass killings and forced deportations at the end of the Ottoman Empire," he said.



This unacceptable decision of the committee, like similar ones in the past, is not regarded by the Turkish people as valid or of any value
Turkish President Abdullah Gul

"We support a full and fair accounting of the atrocities that befell as many as 1.5m Armenians during World War I, which House Resolution 106 does not do."
The Turkish president also attacked the measure, saying some politicians had "closed their ears to calls to be reasonable and once again sought to sacrifice big problems for small domestic political games".
"This unacceptable decision of the committee, like similar ones in the past, is not regarded by the Turkish people as valid or of any value," Mr Gul said, according to the Anatolian news agency.
The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says it is very unusual to hear such high-level political reaction so late at night from the Turkish government - a sign of how seriously it takes this.
This resolution is largely symbolic and is non-binding, but that will make little difference to most Turks, our correspondent says.
Turkish politicians will now focus on trying to keep the resolution from a final vote on the House floor, she adds.
'Sobering'
Correspondents say Wednesday's result means that only a change of heart by the opposition Democrats, who control Congress, can now stop a full vote on the bill.


Divisions within the Foreign Affairs Committee crossed party lines with eight Democrats voting against the measure and eight Republicans voting for it.
Tom Lantos, the committee's chairman, had opened the debate by admitting the resolution posed a "sobering" choice.
"We have to weigh the desire to express our solidarity with the Armenian people... against the risk that it could cause young men and women in the uniform of the United States armed services to pay an even heavier price than they are currently paying," he said.
Mr Lantos, himself a survivor of the Jewish Holocaust, said he would introduce a resolution praising US-Turkish friendship next week, according to AFP news agency.
The Senate Foreign Relations Committee is expected to take up their version of the resolution in the future.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/7038762.stm

[yorukoglu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples READ THİS CAREFULLY
if u dont know anything about turkish history. then dont talk.i read our history for 5 years but i only know %10 of it.u think turks live only in turkey but when i talk with central asian people,(uzbek,turkmen,azeri,kazakh,uyghur,krygyz,karakalpak,khazar,gagavuz...etc)they say we are the real turks.can u understand me?i am a yörük(nomadic turkmens come from central asia to turkey)and i belong to the sarıtekeli tribe of oguz turks(one of the 24 tribes of turks)

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/4239061.gif
Mass Online and Daily News Headline says: "End of the 100 years Cooperation?"


TURKEY SLAMS U.S. HOUSE PANEL OVER “GENOCIDE” BILL

– In a midnight statement to semi-official Anatolia news agency President Abdullah Gül denounced as “unacceptable” the endorsement of a measure branding as “genocide” the alleged Ottoman massacres of Armenians by a key U.S. House panel.

“This unacceptable decision of the committee... has no validity and respectability for the Turkish people. Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States ignored appeals for common sense and once again moved to sacrifice big issues to petty games of domestic politics,"Gül said.

A group of protestors marched to U.S. Embassy in Ankara to protest the development. In Washington President George W. Bush said at the White House shortly before the committee voted on the bill that "This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings, and its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror.” The non-binding measure, which passed the Democratic-led House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee by 27 votes to 21, will now be sent on to the full House for a possible vote. Turkey denies the killings were genocide. It argues that 300,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when Armenians took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia during World War I and sided with Russian troops invading the crumbling Ottoman Empire.

TDN - Hurriyet




Genocide bill first step toward restitution, says ret. US ambassador

'The Armenians’ absolute rejection (of a joint commission) rather tells me that they don’t really want to have really careful analysis of what happened,' President of the ATC says

A resolution submitted to the United States Congress is a first step by Armenians toward territorial demands from Turkey, warned retired U.S. Ambassador James Holmes in an interview with the Turkish Daily News ahead of a crucial vote in the House today.

“I believe that many in the Diaspora see this in terms of step by step, which is very threatening for Turkey. You finally get the U.S. Congress to say that Turkey is guilty of genocide, step A. Step B, okay, the world now says that Turkey is guilty of genocide. What's the proper compensation for that action?” said Holmes, who is currently president of the American Turkish Council (ATC).

Despite Turkey's efforts, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is expected to take the resolution to the Foreign Affairs Committee to start the process of approval. The resolution says Ottoman Turks committed genocide during World War I, killing more than a million Ottoman Armenians during a forced migration.

Restitution, insurance payments and territorial claims are next on the list, said Holmes, noting the reluctance of the Armenian Diaspora to come to grips with the fact that the “genocide cause” is not a disinterested one. “Now some of the Diaspora has been candid enough to say so. Most of them don't. When they go to senators and congressman they don't say these things,”he said.



Stick to the ‘Joint Commission of Historians'

Holmes considered the refusal of Armenia to deliver a positive response to Turkey's offer to set up a commission of historians as its insincerity concerning the discovery of historic facts. “If you really want to address this issue, this (founding a commission of historians) is the way to do it. The Armenians' absolute rejection rather tells me that they don't really want to have careful analysis of what happened,” he said. Holmes urged Turkish authorities to engage in more ardent endeavors for the establishment of the “Joint Commission of Historians” proposed by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a letter to Armenian President Robert Kocharyan in 2005.

Notwithstanding the push in Congress for the passage of the bill, Holmes reiterated that the bill is not consistent with the position of the U.S. Administration, as reflected in a letter to members of the U.S. House of Representatives by the chairman of the American-Turkish Council, Brent Scowcroft. “Our purpose is to draw the attention of the committee members that the bill is not consistent with our foreign policy. It is not in the interest of U.S. national security and it is not a fair treatment of a reliable ally,” Holmes said. The letter warns that the welfare of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan might be jeopardized if the bill passes since Turkey provides a major supply line to them. Commercial relations are very likely to be dealt a serious blow as well, added Holmes.

Holmes did not give up hope that the bill will be rejected, but he is cautious nonetheless. “We will continue to argue in favor of the joint commission of historians but unless we are able to defeat this resolution, the commission won't happen,” he said. Holmes underlined that the bill does not require the president to do anything and argued that it will not have any practical consequences in itself. However, its impact will be great. “The consequence is on Turkey's psyche. It is a finger in the eye for Turkey. Besides, it will have negative commercial consequences,” he said. The resolution must be stopped, said Holmes, since Turkey is “one of our handful of partners with whom the U.S. has this sort of thick relationship.”



US failed its task as an ally

Commenting on Sunday's attacks on Turkish soldiers by the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), Holmes affirmed that the U.S. did not appreciate fully the intensity with which the PKK problem is felt in Turkey. “The U.S. has not responded to the pain of Turkey in a way that I think an ally should,” he said.

Holmes gave one reason of his own for the discrepancy between the threat perceptions of two Cold-War allies with regard to PKK terrorism. “Turkey and the U.S. on a military to military relationship have been used to each other through the EUCOM (U.S. European Command). But the connection in Iraq is through CENTCOM (U.S. Central Command). It is a different command, command structure and people. Part of the problem is the lack of understanding the Turkish-U.S. relationship faces in CENTCOM's command,” he said.

Whatever the enduring hardships, Turkey must continue its progress toward the West, Holmes said. "Turkey has shared visions and shared values with the U.S. and the West. I think that there is a surpassing of shared interests on the part of Turkey and the U.S. which can overcome these problems,” he said.


TDN



no way to simple small Armenian games...p-)




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples READ THİS CAREFULLY
if u dont know anything about turkish history. then dont talk.i read our history for 5 years but i only know %10 of it.u think turks live only in turkey but when i talk with central asian people,(uzbek,turkmen,azeri,kazakh,uyghur,krygyz,karakalpak,khazar,gagavuz...etc)they say we are the real turks.can u understand me?i am a yörük(nomadic turkmens come from central asia to turkey)and i belong to the sarıtekeli tribe of oguz turks(one of the 24 tribes of turks)

Welcome Brother,


regards,
CDTRF

[achilles]

Gul forgot to mention the "death marches", during which thousands of people were forced to march for miles and miles till they die of famine, exhaustion or diseases.

Things will be so much better for EVERYONE, if Turkey admits her past.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Thanks for your constructive advise. Yes, We admit our glorious past with honor. p-)

[achilles]

Thanks for your constructive advise. Yes, We admit our glorious past with honor. p-)

Thats great! When my neighbors are happy, i am happy! ;)


We just need to be a bit carefull with the use of the term "glorious" here...

[Clearday-TRForce]

Thats great! When my neighbors are happy, i am happy! ;)


We just need to be a bit carefull with the use of the term "glorious" here...


Kalimera,

Nice, good to see you in well-formed,ahh and I am very confident when use these terms, really very comfortable. ;-)

[achilles]

Günaydın ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Günaydın ;)

We should give a little bit info about some Turkish - Greek words..


Günaydın (Good Morning)
İyi akşamlar (Good Evening)
İyi günler (Good Days)
Hoş (Nice)
Nasılsın? (How are you)
Ne yapıyorsun? (What are you doing?)
Saygılarımla (regards)
En iyi dileklerimle (best wishes)
Şerefli tarihimizle gurur duyuyorum (I feel proud of our history) :)


Turkish - English - Greek (please look at some similar words between Greek and Turkish)

Bahce /Garden/Bahtses
Bakkal /Grocer/Bakkalis
Bamya/Okra/Bamia
Barbunya/A fish/Barbunia
Carsi/Market/Charsi
Defne/Laurel/Dafni
Dogru/Straight/Dogrou
Halka/Ring/Halkas
Havyar/Caviar/Haviar
Siktir/Get out of here!/Sihtiri
Pirzola/Steak/Brizola
Papaz/Priest/Papas
Meydan/Square/Meidani
Marangoz/Carpenter/Marangos
Kusur/Fault/Kousouri
Kiyma/Ground meat/Kimas
Kaymak/Cream/Kaimaki
Karakol /Police office,police/Karakoli

:)

best wishes,
CDTRF

[BoBo_13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples READ THİS CAREFULLY
if u dont know anything about turkish history. then dont talk.i read our history for 5 years but i only know %10 of it.u think turks live only in turkey but when i talk with central asian people,(uzbek,turkmen,azeri,kazakh,uyghur,krygyz,karakalpak,khazar,gagavuz...etc)they say we are the real turks.can u understand me?i am a yörük(nomadic turkmens come from central asia to turkey)and i belong to the sarıtekeli tribe of oguz turks(one of the 24 tribes of turks)

Helal olsun sana baska bi sey demiyorum.

NO one ! in the world can denie Turk People in world history there are 300 million Turkish speaking nations in the world.............................!!!!!!!!

THE USA WILL NOW FAIL !

[number nine]

Gul forgot to mention the "death marches", during which thousands of people were forced to march for miles and miles till they die of famine, exhaustion or diseases.

Things will be so much better for EVERYONE, if Turkey admits her past.

You still can't understand? It's not past of the Turkey, because Turkey is not as a whole, responsible. As simple as that. Crime is not commited by the group, but by the members of the group which are responsible individually. And speaking of those responsible, none is alive.

I can't stand doublespeak offline and I don't have to endure listening to it online. What persons who were not even born then have to admit to you as "their past"? That is typical doublespeak, collective responsibility.

[achilles]

You still can't understand? It's not past of the Turkey, because Turkey is not as a whole, responsible. As simple as that. Crime is not commited by the group, but by the members of the group which are responsible individually. And speaking of those responsible, none is alive.

I can't stand doublespeak offline and I don't have to endure listening to it online. What persons who were not even born then have to admit to you as "their past"? That is typical doublespeak, collective responsibility.

It seems that you are completely incompetent in understanding a very simple fact: there is collective responsibility. Responsibility goes from generation to generation pretty much like genes transfer biological traits from one generation to another. Thats the way i see it.

No, modern Turks did not commit the genocides but the Young Turk /Kemal Ataturk regimes of the time, with the vast support of the military and a goode number of Turkish/Ottoman citizens. Defnitely that belongs to the past.

What is very present though is that Turkey denies an outcrying historical fact and fails to PAY HONOUR to millions of dead people. Noone will be ressurected, i can guarantee you that one, but "recognition" means international dignity, displays an attitude of constructive self-criticism and perhaps "recognition" consists of a bond that Turkey will never repeat the bloody mistakes of the past.

The only way to not repeat a mistake is, first and foremost, to aknowledge it.

A good way to restore your international credibility is to be honest and self-critical.

The only way to dignity is to pay honour to millions of dead people by RECOGNIZING what had happened about a century ago.

No modern Turk is liable for the actual killings but ALL modern Turks are liable for all the above. All modern Turks are liable for their attitudes towards their past and towards 2.5 million dead Armenians/Pontian Greeks/Assyrians. Liablity exists simply because there is historical continuity throughout the centuries, either you like it or not.

Hope you got it this time....

[Clearday-TRForce]

It seems that you are completely incompetent in understanding a very simple fact: there is collective responsibility. Responsibility goes from generation to generation pretty much like genes transfer biological traits from one generation to another. Thats the way i see it.

No, modern Turks did not commit the genocides but the Young Turk /Kemal Ataturk regimes of the time, with the vast support of the military and a goode number of Turkish/Ottoman citizens. Defnitely that belongs to the past.

What is very present though is that Turkey denies an outcrying historical fact and fails to PAY HONOUR to millions of dead people. Noone will be ressurected, i can guarantee you that one, but "recognition" means international dignity, displays an attitude of constructive self-criticism and perhaps "recognition" consists of a bond that Turkey will never repeat the bloody mistakes of the past.

The only way to not repeat a mistake is, first and foremost, to aknowledge it.

A good way to restore your international credibility is to be honest and self-critical.

The only way to dignity is to pay honour to millions of dead people by RECOGNIZING what had happened about a century ago.

No modern Turk is liable for the actual killings but ALL modern Turks are liable for all the above. All modern Turks are liable for their attitudes towards their past and towards 2.5 million dead Armenians/Pontian Greeks/Assyrians. Liablity exists simply because there is historical continuity throughout the centuries, either you like it or not.

Hope you got it this time....

Haha, these numbers get increase year by year...it was firstly 300 thousands in 10 years ago, then 600 in 6 years ago, then 1 ml in 3 years ago, now 1,5 ml...

I think these numbers will be 10 ml in the following 10 years....very funny...go go !!!

[number nine]

@Achilles


It seems that you are completely incompetent in understanding a very simple fact: there is collective responsibility. Responsibility goes from generation to generation pretty much like genes transfer biological traits from one generation to another. Thats the way i see it.

No, modern Turks did not commit the genocides but the Young Turk /Kemal Ataturk regimes of the time, with the vast support of the military and a goode number of Turkish/Ottoman citizens. Defnitely that belongs to the past.

What is very present though is that Turkey denies an outcrying historical fact and fails to PAY HONOUR to millions of dead people. Noone will be ressurected, i can guarantee you that one, but "recognition" means international dignity, displays an attitude of constructive self-criticism and perhaps "recognition" consists of a bond that Turkey will never repeat the bloody mistakes of the past.

The only way to not repeat a mistake is, first and foremost, to aknowledge it.

A good way to restore your international credibility is to be honest and self-critical.

The only way to dignity is to pay honour to millions of dead people by RECOGNIZING what had happened about a century ago.

No modern Turk is liable for the actual killings but ALL modern Turks are liable for all the above. All modern Turks are liable for their attitudes towards their past and towards 2.5 million dead Armenians/Pontian Greeks/Assyrians. Liablity exists simply because there is historical continuity throughout the centuries, either you like it or not.

Hope you got it this time....


No there is no collective responsibility. Nobody can be liable for what he never did.

Do I have to tell you that Pechenegs were slaughtered together with their families at Levounion? Do you feel responsible, because collective responsibility is inherited from generation to generation, in your opinion? Cut on the nonsense!

[achilles]

@Achilles

No there is no collective responsibility. Nobody can be liable for what he never did.

Do I have to tell you that Pechenegs were slaughtered together with their families at Levounion? Do you feel responsible? So, cut on the nonsense.

Sadly, what i am trying to say does not get through. I am not personally responsible for the killings but i am fully responsible for the aknowledgment of my ancestor's malpractices and, in turn, for paying a minimal honour to the dead and their relatives who are currently alive and well.

There is definitely collective responsibility in terms of attitudes and not actual killings.

Do you get it now?

[achilles]

Helal olsun sana baska bi sey demiyorum.

NO one ! in the world can denie Turk People in world history there are 300 million Turkish speaking nations in the world.............................!!!!!!!!

THE USA WILL NOW FAIL !


Take it easy buddy...relax :lol:

[number nine]

Sadly, what i am trying to say does not get through. I am not personally responsible for the killings but i am fully responsible for the aknowledgment of my ancestor's malpractices and, in turn, for paying a minimal honour to the dead.

There is definitely collective responsibility in terms of attitudes and not actual killings.

Do you get it now?

But that is completely different than what is going on now!
One thing is to acknowledge an atrocity happened.
Something completely different to stigmatize publicly those that are not responsible at all, and US bill does exactly that!

[achilles]

But that is completely different than what is going on now!
One thing is to acknowledge an atrocity happened.
Something completely different to stigmatize publicly those that are not responsible at all, and US bill does exactly that!

Dude, the way i see it the US simply recognizes a historical fact. Its not an attempt to stigmatize modern Turks as "murderers" or whatever... you dont have to see it that way. Its all about aknowledging the truth and not putting any tags on modern Turkey.

[number nine]

But it can and will be seen so. Because it's not the job of US congress to acknowledge something as a historical fact in a bill, am I right? Are historical facts acknowledged by putting them in bills?

That is the problem.

[achilles]

But it can and will be seen so. Because it's not the job of US congress to acknowledge something as a historical fact in a bill, am I right? Are historical facts acknowledged by putting them in bills?

That is the problem.

Thats a fair question.

The answer is, of course not. Historical facts are consolidated by historians. And historians have consolidated the "Christian Holocaust" of 1894-1922 long time ago. First there is scientific recognition and then political. I believe this is the case we got here.

[number nine]

First there is scientific recognition and then political.

No political history, please! Under communism I had more than enough opportunity to read it. So,I think this is very bad move. If an atrocity just appeared in history books, that would be allright, but not this.

[BoBo_13]

The Turkish goverment has just announced they will put through the parliment, To vote on USA if they are creating genocide on Muslim nations !!

Hahaha :)

USA done a big mistake !

[Clearday-TRForce]

Thats a fair question.

The answer is, of course not. Historical facts are consolidated by historians.


end of debate..thanks. :) this is what we discuss here...Politicians can not judge or take decisions about historical facts. What US does,it is. And a mistake.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

The Turkish goverment has just announced they will put through the parliment, To vote on USA if they are creating genocide on Muslim nations !!

Hahaha :)

USA done a big mistake !

Wow!!!!
USA is doomed!!! http://www.hellenicdefence.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/laugh2.gif

[BoBo_13]

What you trying to say, without Turkey USA cant do anything in the middle east

ANy way you greeks dont even have a right to talk mate against Turkey so shusss, and by the way where do you come into this topic ?

[Argyll]

Keep the slagging down or you'll all be taking out some holidays !!

[achilles]

No political history, please! Under communism I had more than enough opportunity to read it. So,I think this is very bad move. If an atrocity just appeared in history books, that would be allright, but not this.

I certainly do not advocate political history on its own. However, i have no problem with a political justification of an historical fact, when this fact is sufficiently corroborated. And the Armenian Genocide is one of those well-justified facts of history.


Bobo13, i got two comments for you:

1. You overestimate the importance of your country. The US can do without you and keep that well in mind.

2. You are in no position to say "hush" to anyone around here. The only one you can "hush" is yourself. Either do so, or provide us with any constructive input you might have.

[number nine]

I do have problem with political justification of historic facts, because historic facts do not it to be recognized as such, and second, that political justification will not serve history, but some political aims.

[Clearday-TRForce]

What you trying to say, without Turkey USA cant do anything in the middle east

ANy way you greeks dont even have a right to talk mate against Turkey so shusss, and by the way where do you come into this topic ?


Bobo, you are able to discuss in civil manner. No need to be harsh man,there is no any situation here to be harsh. If you want to write something,just write,or if you feel bad, go bed, or somewhere else out of net. :)

Easy bro, easy...

and,

Political decisions can also help political results. On the other hand, there will be no any difference in US policy with Turkey after decision if pass.

Turkey is importance can not be vital but also can not be underestimating thing. It clearly shows what US Govern reacts, such as;


- President George W Bush has urged US legislators not to pass a resolution declaring the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks to be genocide.

- US Defense Secretary Robert Gates earlier said that 70% of US air cargo for Iraq went through Turkey, as well as about a third of the fuel used by the US military there.

"Access to airfields and to the roads and so on in Turkey would very much be put at risk if this resolution passes and Turkey reacts as strongly as we believe they will," he added.

- State Department spokesman Sean McCormack issued a statement expressing "regret" for the committee's action, warning the resolution "may do grave harm to U.S.-Turkish relations and to U.S. interests in Europe and the Middle East."

- Undersecretary of State Nick Burns said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would call the Turkish leadership Thursday to express "deep disappointment" with the vote.

- Rice and Gates said Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. military officer in Iraq; U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker; and Adm. William Fallon, head of the U.S. Central Command, also raised concerns about the resolution.

- House Republican leader John Boehner, noting the critical military and strategic alliance with Turkey, said bringing the resolution to the floor would be "totally irresponsible." "Let the historians decide what happened 90 years ago," Boehner said in a written statement.

-

So, Turkey must have importance. No doubt. :)



regards,
CDTRF

[Raptus_regaliter]

The backlash from this I think we will see very shortly, and my opinion is that American interests in Iraq will be the victim.

[LaoSexMachine]

US House of Representatives Armenian Genocide Resolution
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_10_08_armenia.pdf

[BoBo_13]

- House Republican leader John Boehner, noting the critical military and strategic alliance with Turkey, said bringing the resolution to the floor would be "totally irresponsible." "Let the historians decide what happened 90 years ago," Boehner said in a written statement.


Exactly, Why bring this armenian rubbish now?

Happened time ago, these are all games played against Turkey.

If they say Turkey has done genocide What about UK, USA, France, Germany....and the list goes on

This is just stupid.

The World needs a new ottoman !

[LaoSexMachine]

The World needs a new ottoman !

Made me spit out my coffee. Hahahahahahahaha.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Exactly, Why bring this armenian rubbish now?

Happened time ago, these are all games played against Turkey.

If they say Turkey has done genocide What about UK, USA, France, Germany....and the list goes on

This is just stupid.

The World needs a new ottoman !



The world needs wise people who serve the same world and humanity.

[achilles]

The World needs a new ottoman !


No please! No more!! :lol:


What CD said.

[Nickchios]

It is braveness to accept and recognize your mistakes in the past. It helps for better future.

[Clayton Gold]

You still can't understand? It's not past of the Turkey, because Turkey is not as a whole, responsible. As simple as that. Crime is not commited by the group, but by the members of the group which are responsible individually. And speaking of those responsible, none is alive.

I can't stand doublespeak offline and I don't have to endure listening to it online. What persons who were not even born then have to admit to you as "their past"? That is typical doublespeak, collective responsibility.

Part of being a responsible nation, is admitting errors.

When Stephen Harper apologized to Chinese-Canadians last year for racial government policies towards the Chinese, which took place 150 years ago; he accepted the fact that the leadership of the country was responsible for this, and thus, were left to deal with it.

It is not a matter of passing blame, then the issue never goes away. Simple recognition of the facts can go a long way towards solving these types of issues.

Many would like to take credit for their "glorious" pasts, while omitting any mistakes that may have happened. This is your "doublespeak".

[Clearday-TRForce]

Excellent rofl



Belatedly, the House's History Lesson

By Dana Milbank :-D
Thursday, October 11, 2007; Page A02

Wondering why Congress can't reach a consensus on the Iraq war? Well, consider that our lawmakers are still divided on the Turkish-Armenian conflict. Of 1915. :-D

With bullets flying in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2007, the House Foreign Affairs Committee sat down yesterday to resolve a pressing issue: whether to pass a resolution declaring that the killing of hundreds of thousands of Armenians 92 years ago qualifies as genocide.

Ankara insists this is nobody's business but the Turks'. But the history-minded House knows better.

"I consider myself a friend of Turkey, but friends don't let friends commit crimes against humanity," said Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.) in his stinging rebuke of the Ottoman Empire.

Nor was Rep. Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) afraid to call a sultan a sultan. He spoke of a need to "speak truth to Turkey" about the 1915 situation.

"Genocide is genocide, and there's no way of sugarcoating it," agreed Rep. Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.).

Indeed not. Only 92 years late, the intrepid members of the committee voted 27 to 21 to condemn the Young Turks of 1915. The Armenians in the audience, wearing stickers urging "Stop the Cycle of Genocide," erupted in applause and tears. Among the celebrants: Catholicos Karekin II, supreme patriarch of the Armenian Church.

Amid such fervor, only a minority of lawmakers dared to argue that it was hardly worth antagonizing Turkey, a crucial ally in Iraq and a rare Muslim friend, over long-ago atrocities perpetrated by long-dead rulers of a long-defunct empire.

"This is crazy," remarked Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), who once shot a watermelon as part of his probes of Bill Clinton. "We're in the middle of two wars and we've got troops over there that are at risk, and we're talking about kicking the one ally that's helping us over there in the face." p-)

Then there was the statute-of-limitations conundrum. If it's within Congress's authority to be the arbiter of the Armenian genocide, will it next confront the Romans for the rape of the Sabine women, or the Greeks for sacking Troy? And if attacking the Ottomans, why not weigh in on the siege of Constantinople in 1453? p-)

"Whether it is the Ottoman Empire, the Japanese Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire or, indeed, the Roman Empire, I mean, we could go on for a long time condemning the atrocities committed under each," pointed out Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.). rofl

And maybe they will. Chairman Tom Lantos (D-Calif.) pointed out that the committee has already probed the enslavement of "comfort women" by imperial Japan. Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-N.Y.) announced yesterday that he will soon introduce legislation on atrocities against American Indians.

Ostensibly, the debate was about morality (many proponents noted that Hitler was emboldened by the silence on the Armenian genocide) vs. national security (several opponents observed that most U.S. air cargo to Iraq goes through Turkish bases).

While nobody disputed that something very much like genocide happened to the Armenians 92 years ago, support for the resolution tended to reflect the size of the Armenian population in the lawmakers' districts. All 10 committee members from California (where the census counts 231,777 Armenians) voted aye, while both members from Indiana (total Armenians: 904) voted no. The Californian chairman, Lantos, warned that the measure could cause U.S. troops "to pay an even heavier price" -- then voted yes.

Ultimately, the threat to national security couldn't compete with four women in wheelchairs in the front row wearing pink stickers announcing "I'm a survivor" of the genocide. "I don't like Turkey -- they are animals there," reported Perouz Kalousdian, 97. She left Turkey in 1916 but remembers it clearly; "they came and they took all my uncles," she said.

For lawmakers, the memories were rather less fresh and personal. Lantos reached into the history books and pulled out quotes from the U.S. ambassador to the Ottoman Empire.

"Thank you for your outstanding review of history," Sherman told the chairman.

"Very fair summary of the history," agreed Rep. Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.).

Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-Tex.) thought it would be better if "everyone opens their historic books." :)

"I don't pretend to be a professional historian," demurred Rep. Howard Berman (D-Calif.). woot

But Rep. Ron Klein (D-Fla.) insisted. "We are all students of history," he told colleagues.

Not all students of logic, however. Sherman, arguing passionately for the label of genocide, acknowledged that the measure was "an irritant to our relationship with Turkey" but then concluded: "That's the best reason to vote for it."

The debate didn't improve from there. Rep. Albio Sires (D-N.J.) complained that "I feel like I have a Turkish sword over my head," while Rep. Joseph Crowley (D-N.Y.) contributed a profound thought: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." :)

Likewise, Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.), arguing in favor of the resolution, offered some pithy advice to the feuding Turks and Armenians. "Move on," he recommended.

If only Congress could do the same.


www.washingtonpost.com




Really, I thank you Dana Milbank.




regards,
CDTRF

[Raptus_regaliter]

Part of being a responsible nation, is admitting errors.

When Stephen Harper apologized to Chinese-Canadians last year for racial government policies towards the Chinese, which took place 150 years ago; he accepted the fact that the leadership of the country was responsible for this, and thus, were left to deal with it.

It is not a matter of passing blame, then the issue never goes away. Simple recognition of the facts can go a long way towards solving these types of issues.

Many would like to take credit for their "glorious" pasts, while omitting any mistakes that may have happened. This is your "doublespeak".

But I have a feeling the Chinese-Canadians were not expecting a large chunk of land and billions in reparations along with their apology.

[Clayton Gold]

But I have a feeling the Chinese-Canadians were not expecting a large chunk of land and billions in reparations along with their apology.

This is not the point I am making, but regardless; they were given billions in reparations.

I am asking: How one can talk of their "glorious past", and then immediately deflect blame because it happened "long in the past" ?

This is a poor argument, for obvious reasons.

[Mardo]

But I have a feeling the Chinese-Canadians were not expecting a large chunk of land and billions in reparations along with their apology.


Please cite a specific reference where this was mentioned as the intention of the Armenian people?

I want recognition for the murders of my ancestors, I want the lies, smoke and mirrors to end. For a nation responsible for the destruction of so many lives and towns to finally be held responsible and to admit their flaws. I could care less about any reperations paid, that is not what I want and it is not what most Armenians want.

[BoBo_13]

Who cares what armenians want...

[Lokos]

Who cares what armenians want...

I care. What of it?

Lokos

[Raptus_regaliter]

Please cite a specific reference where this was mentioned as the intention of the Armenian people?

I want recognition for the murders of my ancestors, I want the lies, smoke and mirrors to end. For a nation responsible for the destruction of so many lives and towns to finally be held responsible and to admit their flaws. I could care less about any reperations paid, that is not what I want and it is not what most Armenians want.

It is the next logical step after recognition isn't it? Otherwise, why spend so much time, effort, and cash lobbying for it? I have a hard time believing this push is merely for the lofty concept of "justice," though in a moral sense that may be just what it is. Nations don't operate under such premises, think of a simple cost-benefit analysis.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Who cares what armenians want...

A member for three days, thirteen posts, two warnings and an infraction - you are the weakest likn, goodbye.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Please cite a specific reference where this was mentioned as the intention of the Armenian people?

I want recognition for the murders of my ancestors, I want the lies, smoke and mirrors to end. For a nation responsible for the destruction of so many lives and towns to finally be held responsible and to admit their flaws. I could care less about any reperations paid, that is not what I want and it is not what most Armenians want.


Armenian Friend,


I am not the murder of your ancestors and no any Turkish people who live in here are the murder of your ancestors. We, with many armenian friends in Turkey live together with no harmful sense. No one can take advantage to blame history and whole people in modern time. We still believe in mass murders on both side. Turkish massacres and Armenian massacres but there is no Genocide.

On the other hand,there is a little bit strange thing for Kurdish people's general sense for Armenian, what I have seen armenian tombs in soouth and east of Turkey. Kurdish people is one of the primaryly to hate from Armenians...I dont know why? historical? I dont know but it is really fact. Interesting...I still dont know why!!!



and BoBo_13, sorry but you deserve this ban.



regards,
CDTRF

[DeltaWhisky58]

Warning - this topic is getting pretty close to the point where I will close it.

So far there have only been two offenders, let's keep it that was or I'll close it down.

[Migman]

I for one applaud the the decision by the House Foreign Affairs Committee to recognize the Armenian Genocide of 1915 for what it really was, a GENOCIDE. Not mass murders, not an atrocity, but the first genocide of the 20th century.

As for Turkey getting their panties in a bunch, what part of non-binding resolution do they not understand? This resolution first has to pass through the House, and then through the Senate before it really takes effect.

Only then should Turkey start crying.

[zg18]

Turkish massacres and Armenian massacres but there is no Genocide.

How come?

I mean ,if Srebrenica with "only" 7800 victims is genocide how a Ottoman massacres against Armenians (600 thousands-1.5 million Armenians killed) is not?

[DeltaWhisky58]

Turkish massacres and Armenian massacres but there is no Genocide.

A warning to our Turkish and Armenian members - statements like this do you no good at all. What is genocide but a specific kind of mass murder?

genocide noun the deliberate killing of a whole nation or people. genocidal adj.
ETYMOLOGY: 20c: from Greek genos race + -cide (http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?xref=21C07168&title=21st&query=-cide).

I am not prepared to accept such statements.

[Mardo]

Keep in mind two very important things:

1) Armenians are a very stubborn people and are willing to sacrifice a lot just to prove a point or stand the moral high ground.

2) turkey has still yet to admit that they did anything wrong by killing over 1M Armenians.

There are many nations in the EU and around the world that recognizes the genocide and no reparation lawsuits have been filed to date. I think that is a good indication for you on what the true intention is...Recognition of the wrongs committed by an old regime and admition of the murder of a 1/3 of the country.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Final warning - I will close this topic and if necessary issue infractions if this topic is not kept on track and in a civilised manner.

[number nine]

Part of being a responsible nation, is admitting errors.

When Stephen Harper apologized to Chinese-Canadians last year for racial government policies towards the Chinese, which took place 150 years ago; he accepted the fact that the leadership of the country was responsible for this, and thus, were left to deal with it.

It is not a matter of passing blame, then the issue never goes away. Simple recognition of the facts can go a long way towards solving these types of issues.

Many would like to take credit for their "glorious" pasts, while omitting any mistakes that may have happened. This is your "doublespeak".

But I was referring to dublespeak of US politicians... It's obvious PDF that was linked here, US bill, serves political aims, hence the doublespeak, because it exerts pressure upon today's Turkey in thinly veiled manner.

By the way, there was court-martial in Turkey after the genocide, but you can argue that attempt of justice was more or less futile and tribunal was relocated to Malta. So Turkey admitted that crimes were done already,simply by the fact that court proceedings took place. And in light of that too, bringing an atrocity that happened almost a century ago to the focus of public attention today serves only political aims.

And if Turkish government apologizes in public today, that will not at all the same as US congress condemnation of the genocide. But it's up to them.

In other words, this ain't business of US congress or of any other parliament in the world, except if... it's just an attempt of putting pressure on today's Turkey, because it adresses historical event that happened almost a century ago. US congress already labeled massacre of Armenians as a genocide while it was a contemporary event.

[little icebear]

One question, number nine: You as a serb, what would you say if the Germans decided that they don´t need to care about the crimes of the Wehrmacht and SS during WW II, just because there were attrocities commited by every side involved and because it was more than 60 year ago?

[number nine]

I wouldn't care. Perpetrators died already. And I can't hold a nation responsible. Today's Germans are not responsible my grandfather died in war.

[DeltaWhisky58]

You had your chance - you blew it. Topic locked.