Muslim letter to Pope

[Lazy Lob]

BBC NEWS
Muslim scholars reach out to Pope
More than 130 Muslim scholars have written to Pope Benedict XVI and other Christian leaders urging greater understanding between the two faiths.

The letter says that world peace could depend on improved relations between Muslims and Christians.

It identifies the principles of accepting only one god and living in peace with one's neighbours as common ground between the two religions.

It also insists that Christians and Muslims worship the same god.

The letter comes on the anniversary of an open letter issued to the Pope last year from 38 top Muslim clerics, after he made a controversial speech on Islam.

Pope Benedict sparked an uproar in September last year by quoting a medieval text which linked Islam to violence.

The letter coincides with the Eid al-Fitr celebrations to mark the end of Ramadan.

Koran and Bible

It was also sent to the Archbishop of Canterbury, the heads of the Lutheran, Methodist and Baptist churches, the Orthodox Church's Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I and other Orthodox Patriarchs.

The letter, entitled A Common Word Between Us and You, compares passages in the Koran and the Bible, concluding that both emphasise "the primacy of total love and devotion to God", and the love of the neighbour.

With Muslims and Christians making up more than half the world's population, the letter goes on, the relationship between the two religious communities is "the most important factor in contributing to meaningful peace around the world".

"As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes," the letter says.


It adds: "To those who nevertheless relish conflict and destruction for their own sake or reckon that ultimately they stand to gain through them, we say our very eternal souls are all also at stake if we fail to sincerely make every effort to make peace and come together in harmony."

One of the signatories, Dr Aref Ali Nayed, a senior adviser at the Cambridge Inter-faith Programme at Cambridge University, told the BBC that the document should be seen as a landmark.

"There are Sunnis, Shias, Ibadis and even the... Ismailian and Jaafari schools, so it's a consensus," he said.

Professor David Ford, director of the programme, said the letter was unprecedented.

"If sufficient people and groups heed this statement and act on it then the atmosphere will be changed into one in which violent extremists cannot flourish," he said in a statement.

The letter was signed by prominent Muslim leaders, politicians and academics, including the Grand Muftis of Bosnia and Hercegovina, Russia, Croatia, Kosovo and Syria, the Secretary-General of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the former Grand Mufti of Egypt and the founder of the Ulema Organisation in Iraq.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/7038992.stm

Published: 2007/10/11 10:49:59 GMT

© BBC MMVII

[theholeinthedonut]

Now where does that leave the atheists?
Anyhow common god or not, if eight year old boys get punished in his name by getting their hand amputated for stealing an orange, I do not like him.

[Friendofall]

The Pope will of course reach out in kind to the Muslim community but the Muslims must understand this is a two way street they must show they can do for the Christians what they ask the Christians to do for them.

[maundy]

Allah ain't God, he Satan, just look at what they do in his name. Let those dumb ****s send themselves to Hell.

[Lazy Lob]

Now where does that leave the atheists?

x2

I see you're our Ambassador now. :) Better get some Ferrero Rocher.

[orange]

Allah ain't God, he Satan, just look at what they do in his name. Let those dumb ****s send themselves to Hell.
You really are an idiot, you know that right?!

[Friendofall]

Now where does that leave the atheists?

Still hating God and the people who believe in Him?

[maundy]

You really are an idiot, you know that right?!


Stop trying to project yourself on to me. I am so much damn better than you and you know it.

Now **** OFF.

[Friendofall]

Is all the bickering really necessary? I mean we are all adults here instead of calling each other names why not engage in open and peacful dialog to attempt and reach common ground?

[maundy]

I propose to kill every single Muslim leader there is, the guys who are spurring them on to kill innocents.

[orange]

Stop trying to project yourself on to me. I am so much damn better than you and you know it.

Now **** OFF.
Ah, so that's what you are.. Bugger of you little pissant!

I propose to kill every single Muslim leader there is, the guys who are spurring them on to kill innocents.
Thanks for proving my point!

I'm out

[Friendofall]

I propose to kill every single Muslim leader there is, the guys who are spurring them on to kill innocents.

Not all Muslim leaders are spuring their following to take the lives of non Muslims in fact the Muslim clerics who are advocating violence are violating the basic teachings of Islam thus all Fatwahs (spelled right?) they issue are illegitimate but since Islam lacks a centeral authority their interpretations like those Protestants in Christianity vary from clergy to clergy so its hard for the followers of Islam to know where they stand as a whole thus leading to infighting among various sects of Islam.

[IanSolo]

The Pope will of course reach out in kind to the Muslim community but the Muslims must understand this is a two way street they must show they can do for the Christians what they ask the Christians to do for them.


That's the point, Friend of All u're right.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I propose to kill every single Muslim leader there is, the guys who are spurring them on to kill innocents.

We'll watch news with interest awaiting your demise. In the meantime don't catch your ass in the door as it slams behind you!

Now Feck Off troll!

[theholeinthedonut]

Is all the bickering really necessary? I mean we are all adults here instead of calling each other names why not engage in open and peacful dialog to attempt and reach common ground?
X2

Still hating God and the people who believe in Him?

No not at all! I do not want to sound preposterous but I think this is a misconception of yours, due to the huge cultural gap (this is not meant to be judgemental) inbetween the USA and Europe....a gap most of us, on both sides of the big pond, are not aware of and thus it is, again and again, the reason for many misunderstandings inbetween the US of A and "old" Europe.
Sometimes I got the feeling that for many believing americans an "atheist" has to be an commie subversive baby eater without any moral values and de****d of all ethics! That is not reality, some of your tv-preachers might want you to believe it...it's a clasical "us" and "them" mechanism that helps you to control your flock. But believe it or not, I do not hate believers nor do I have any sort of disdain for them....I know many religious christians, muslims as well as jews I respect very much. Believing or not believing or faith is something personal and every person's own choice that should be respected and accepted. For me it has nothing to do with not being able to believe or not having the strength or faith and neither has it to do with the deeds of some confessoins.......it's the result of a cognitive process I went trough during my childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. I just think that for me it seems more realistic to base my conceptions of the world and the people around me on logical and critical thinking and thought then on a testament, a prophet or beliefs! I do not want to say that I have to be right...maybe I am wrong and there is a God........I can accept the fact that I am fallible and that I am not omnipotent and allknowing. But I can try to widen my knowledge.
Most probably the values both of us cherish are very similar.....I'm quite a conservative person...sometimes I like to tease more liberal friends with the words that I am
"Somewhere to the right of Donald Rumsfeld and Attila the Hun". But for me those values can exist and the ethics can work without any connection to a deity. Actually most of our "western" values existed long before the advent of judeo-christian religions.
What I will not tolerate though is interference of religion and faith in politics and public life........we europeans made a choice to separate faith and state ...alltough all of us are far from being perfect. Same thing goes for believers who will not acceppt that there can be a moral and ethical person without any relation to a deity.......like the german Cardinal Meissner who said a few weeks ago that there can be no art without a reference to god and that all art without a clear connection to god is "degenerated"....this is fascism in its purest form and every church who tolerates that kind of speech looses all credibility in my eyes.

[Thor]

Judged by this excerpt of the letter, and based on what Islam teaches regarding treatment of and relations with people who aren't Ummah, this letter is not groundbreaking but very traditional and Islamic in it's style. This also explains why it appealed to such a variety of muslims from different branches of the faith. It seems like it includes traditional declarations with demands of recognition of their faith and prophet and promises of peace in exchange.

I would compare it to the appeasement doctrine of the Soviet Union which also always refered to peace and understanding while what was really part of the package was the acceptance of, and ultimately submission to the world revolution. Anything else could mean open conflict.

[Friendofall]

X2


No not at all! I do not want to sound preposterous but I think this is a misconception of yours, due to the huge cultural gap (this is not meant to be judgemental) inbetween the USA and Europe....a gap most of us, on both sides of the big pond, are not aware of and thus it is, again and again, the reason for many misunderstandings inbetween the US of A and "old" Europe.
Sometimes I got the feeling that for many believing americans an "atheist" has to be an commie subversive baby eater without any moral values and de****d of all ethics! That is not reality, some of your tv-preachers might want you to believe it...it's a clasical "us" and "them" mechanism that helps you to control your flock. I do not hate believers nor do I have any disdain for them....I know many religious christians and muslims as well as jews I respect very much. Believing or not believing or faith is something personal and every persons own choice that should be respected and accepted. For me it has nothing to do with "believing" or not being able to believe or not having the strength.......it's the result of a cognitive process I went trough during my childhood and my adolescence abd early adulthood. I just think that for me it seems more realistic to base my conceptions of the world an the people around me on logical and critical thinking and thought, not on a testament, a prophet or beliefs! I do not want to say that I have to be right...maybe I am wrong and there is a God........I can accept the fact that I am fallible and that I am not omnipotent and allknowing. But I can try to widen my knowledge.
Most probably the values both of us cherish are very similar.....I'm quite a conservative person...sometimes I like to teas more liberal friends with the words that I am " Somewhere to the right of Donald Rumsfeld and Attila the Hun". But for me those values can exist and the ethics can work without any connection to a deity. Actually most of our values existed long before the advent of judeo-christian religions.
What I will not tolerate though is interference of religion and faith in politics and public life........we europeans made a choice to separate faith and state ...alltough all of us are far from being perfect. Same thing goes for believers who will not acceppt that there can be a moral and ethical person without any relation to deity.......like the german Cardinal Meissner who said a few weeks ago that there can be no art without a reference to god and that all art without a clear connection to god is "degenerated"....this is fascism in its purest form and every chuech who tolerates that kind of speech looses all credibility in my eyes.

First off very informative, secondly I was joking,, Thirdly I’m Roman Catholic not a crazed bible thumping Protestant (though I’ve met my fare share of Catholics who also do that). Also one Cardinals actions do not speak for the whole of the Holy Mother Church.

[Switek]

There is a big difference between dialouge of two religions (what this letter is about, IMHO) and two completely different social orders. This letter to pope is failrue as kind of political debate couse Europe in general is secular. Can be recognized only on theological basis what would not change too much in mutual relations

[Ivan le Fou]

It's good to see that there are still intelligent peoples living on Earth.



But there will always be too many idiots to bring down what they are trying to create/consolidate. :|

[Friendofall]

There is a big difference between dialouge of two religions (what this letter is about, IMHO) and two completely different social orders. This letter to pope is failrue as kind of political debate couse Europe in general is secular. Can be recognized only on theological basis what would not change too much in mutual relations

Very True.

[Thor]

There is a big difference between dialouge of two religions (what this letter is about, IMHO) and two completely different social orders. This letter to pope is failrue as kind of political debate couse Europe in general is secular. Can be recognized only on theological basis what would not change too much in mutual relations
It doesn't matter to them as there are religious and not primarily rational motives.

Exactly three times has Usama Bin Laden officially offered George W. Bush peace (if he withdraws his forces) and a chance to convert, as well as being his personal guide should he do so. I doubt that Usama really believes there's even a remote chance it will happen, however doing so has a deep symbolic and religious meaning to 1.5 Billion muslims. The fact that he has done it from a cave gives it an even more symbolic significance to them.

[theholeinthedonut]

First off very informative, secondly I was joking,, Thirdly I’m Roman Catholic not a crazed bible thumping Protestant (though I’ve met my fare share of Catholics who also do that). Also one Cardinals actions do not speak for the whole of the Holy Mother Church.
I did not take it as an offense...I think we did have discussions about this topic before, didn't we.
I have to object to your " not speak for the whole of the Holy Mother Church"
The Catholic church is, as opposed to the "umma" very swell structured and very disciplined and hierarchysized......a Cardinal will not speak against the official dogma...he is the dogma....alltough many believers might disapprove of his words.....the institution "Catholic church" does not. Specially not if a speech comes from such an influential men as Meissner

There is a big difference between dialouge of two religions (what this letter is about, IMHO) and two completely different social orders. This letter to pope is failrue as kind of political debate couse Europe in general is secular. Can be recognized only on theological basis what would not change too much in mutual relations

X10 very sensible point you take there Switek!!! Actually I think there are more issues inbetween secularists and islam then there are inbetween catholics and islam


Very True.

See we can agree on at least one point......I'm convinced there are many more!

[Friendofall]

See we can agree on at least one point......I'm convinced there are many more!

I think more often than not we will most likely find one another on the same side of an issue. Have you ever read any works by G.K. Chesterton? I think you would find his works very interesting, I know I do I often find my self in his school of thought on many issues presented today in the modern world.

[Red]

Since when did the Pope represent all Christians? The Pope is just another dude in funny clothes who lives in a nice castle.

[Thor]

X10 very sensible point you take there Switek!!! Actually I think there are more issues inbetween secularists and islam then there are inbetween catholics and islam
The first mistake is to regard open letters from islamic religious leaders as communication aimed at the receiving party. Their message is primarily aimed toward their followers.

[Friendofall]

The first mistake is to regard open letters from islamic religious leaders as communication aimed at the receiving party. Their message is primarily aimed toward their followers.

Also very true.

[number nine]

@Red
Thor said it already.
They are inflating the value of religion by adressing to the Pope.

[theholeinthedonut]

Since when did the Pope represent all Christians? The Pope is just another dude in funny clothes who lives in a nice castle.

The pope represents god on earth........he is the spiritual leader of every roman catholic....never said he represented every christian.

[Switek]

The first mistake is to regard open letters from islamic religious leaders as communication aimed at the receiving party. Their message is primarily aimed toward their followers.


What would be their benefits for doing that? I'm afraid that the letter's authors can be recognized as betrayers of jihad against "successors of crusaders" in their local communities.

[Red]

The pope represents god on earth........he is the spiritual leader of every roman catholic....never said he represented every christian.

Ok so it's a ROman Catholic thing? I was confused as the muslim dudes said it was addressed to Christians. So it should probably read "From Muslims to Roman Catholics". Makes sense, thanks for setting me straight.

[Switek]

Since when did the Pope represent all Christians? The Pope is just another dude in funny clothes who lives in a nice castle.


He represents formally only Catholics but morally most of western Christians.

[Thor]

What would be their benefits for doing that? I'm afraid that the letter's authors can be recognized as betrayers of jihad against "successors of crusaders" in their local communities.
No, no, that's a major misconception.

[Friendofall]

Ok so it's a ROman Catholic thing? I was confused as the muslim dudes said it was addressed to Christians. So it should probably read "From Muslims to Roman Catholics". Makes sense, thanks for setting me straight.

Roman Catholics are Christians infact we are the oldest form of Christianity thus the Muslims refering to it as an adress to Christians is not false also the leaders of other Christian sects received similar letters.

[theholeinthedonut]

Ok so it's a ROman Catholic thing? I was confused as the muslim dudes said it was addressed to Christians. So it should probably read "From Muslims to Roman Catholics". Makes sense, thanks for setting me straight.

I used the catholic church as an example of religious intolerance to illustrate my stand on religious intolerance in general....it was in no point related to the letter of the muslims...further on if they write a letter to the pope I take it for granted they want to adress catholics. Normally you do not write to the Dalai Lama if you have problems with certain aspects of the thora, do you?
In fact one could go much farther if one had a penchant for tin-hat theories.....there are much more differencies inbetween the Catholic church and the current Us administrations' GWOT then there are inbetween the Catholic church and mainstream Islam!!!

[DeltaWhisky58]

For crying out loud guys - stop this petty bickering. The otherwise stick is going to have to be un-sheathed.

[Lazy Lob]

Since when did the Pope represent all Christians? The Pope is just another dude in funny clothes who lives in a nice castle.

The letter has been sent to other Christian leaders.

I find the sheer arrogance that world peace rests on their relations with Christianity gobsmacking and dangerous. Yet terrorism isn’t mentioned.

It is a very prophetic sounding letter which I suppose is quite normal for them. But the basis of Christianity is….erm….Christ whom they reject. Not as a prophet but as the son of god.

I would be very wary to say the least.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_10_07_letter.pdf

[Yellowbelly]

I like what these muslims are doing. Overall it's a religion of peace but the VERY few radicals have changed the whole perception of them. Bin Laden, the talibaan, and gang are nothing more than nutjob extremists. Christianity has these too so don't kid yourself. We can get along but I believe the US's foreign policy doesn't help any matters. If we left them alone, we could be left alone too and possibly open more trade. These scare tactics by the media doesn't help any either. 95%+ of muslims are good honest people. Don't let the few corrupt the whole thing. I really hope this works out for the best.

Insha'llah

[xMarsx]

I like what these muslims are doing. Overall it's a religion of peace but the VERY few radicals have changed the whole perception of them. Bin Laden, the talibaan, and gang are nothing more than nutjob extremists. Christianity has these too so don't kid yourself. We can get along but I believe the US's foreign policy doesn't help any matters. If we left them alone, we could be left alone too and possibly open more trade. These scare tactics by the media doesn't help any either. 95%+ of muslims are good honest people. Don't let the few corrupt the whole thing. I really hope this works out for the best.

Insha'llah

95% good and honest? That leaves 50 million bad ones. Don't kid yourself.

[Thor]

I like what these muslims are doing.
The discussion here centers around what they are doing and why...


Overall it's a religion of peace but the VERY few radicals have changed the whole perception of them. Bin Laden, the talibaan, and gang are nothing more than nutjob extremists.
Sadly with wide passive support in large groups.

And in my opinion it's not a religion of peace, but rather peace for those to submit to it's rules.


If we left them alone, we could be left alone too...
Yeah, if "we" just "left them alone".....

[Kippari]

As many of you already pointed the obvoius...
This letter means very little, atleast for me. It shows that they still think they can shake hands with a christian while cutting the throat of an atheist with the other hand.:|

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Seems to me that the Muslim leader's time could have been better spent admonishing members of their own flock. Maybe they're under the impression that the Pope is similar to certain Islamic leaders who have their own militias, and who run death squads - and if only they can influence our King, their problems will go away.

They should really get out more. Outside of the insular world they've worked so hard to perpetuate, it's no longer the 12th century. I bet they're expecting the Pope to come charging over the hill any second now, wearing his armor, and with flags flying. They'd be better off writing a letter to Steven Spielberg or other Hollywood types - they're the ones doing the most damage to their kingdom.

[Yellowbelly]

95% good and honest? That leaves 50 million bad ones. Don't kid yourself.

i was being overly conservative.

I say leave them alone, as in less military involvement in the ME. It doesn't help anything.

They're just trying to dig their name out of the mud I think we should let them.

[Ordie]

Since when did the Pope represent all Christians? The Pope is just another dude in funny clothes who lives in a nice castle.

In the Holy Land and the Near East, nearly all Christians identify themselves as Christians regardless of denomination.

Overall its a good first step in reconciliation.

The Pope's main isssue is one of reciprocity in allowing Christians to worship openly in Muslim majority countries and to allow for the construction of churches to tend for thier spiritual needs.

This is not the first time in attempting reconciliation.

In 1219 St. Francis of Assisi traveled to Eygpt on a peace pilgrimage crossing the lines betwen the Crusaders and the Abuyid Sultan Al Kamil (a Kurd). In an attempt to convert the Sultan. Needless to say it didn't work, but the Sultan was very impressed with St. Francis's devotion to God.

It may have been a factor because later on Fredrick II, King of Sicily (Educated in Arabic with Muslim Bodyguards*) led the 6th Crusades and negotiated with Al Kamil for Jerusalem on a 10 year lease.

*The reason why King Fredrick had Muslim bodyguards was because they could not be ex-communicated by the Pope.

[xMarsx]

i was being overly conservative.

I say leave them alone, as in less military involvement in the ME. It doesn't help anything.

They're just trying to dig their name out of the mud I think we should let them.

I disagree. They've made their bed and now must lay in it.

[Eoin666]

The letter was signed by prominent Muslim leaders, politicians and academics, including the Grand Muftis of Bosnia and Hercegovina, Russia, Croatia, Kosovo and Syria, the Secretary-General of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the former Grand Mufti of Egypt and the founder of the Ulema Organisation in Iraq.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/7038992.stm


Was going to make a joke about checking the letter for a smell of almonds and wires.....I bet butts tightened in the Vatican when they noticed the post mark

But seriously, interesting that it was signed by relatively moderate muslim clerics (predominantly european)......no Wahabi clerics signed then I take it....strange how in all the great religions, the devil, literally is in the details

Did someone say Catholicism is the oldest form of Christianity....is that apart from the eastern Orthodox and Arian branches, christianity arrived in Greece and Armenia long before it became the region of Rome...oh nearly forgot it was the catholics that wiped out the Arian christians, but then they could always say 6 hail Mary's and 4 hello dolly's in forgiveness

May peace be upon you all :)

[Warlord]

Pre 9/11, Islam meant = Submission to God.

After 9/11, it became Islam = (a religion of) PEACE.

Most if not all the major mosques in Europe are Wahabbi/Saudi funded and so I would imagine the scholarships to Islamic schools would be too which then means that the line of thought that will probably be is Wahabbi.

[Eoin666]

Pre 9/11, Islam meant = Submission to God.

After 9/11, it became Islam = (a religion of) PEACE.

Most if not all the major mosques in Europe are Wahabbi/Saudi funded and so I would imagine the scholarships to Islamic schools would be too which then means that the line of thought that will probably be is Wahabbi.

Cheers dude, I know most of the mosques here in the UK are Wahabi, wasn't sure about the eastern european, Bosnian, Kosovan etc

[INAT]

The Pope will of course reach out in kind to the Muslim community but the Muslims must understand this is a two way street they must show they can do for the Christians what they ask the Christians to do for them.


I agree unfortunately Islam cannot do for Christians what they ask Christians to do.This can be seen in the nonexistent Christian population in
Muslim lands.I thought this part was interesting ""As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppressthem and drive them out of their homes," the letter says.

Is there nothing in Islamic thought that is similar the golden rule?

[ThatHistoryDude]

Roman Catholics are Christians infact we are the oldest form of Christianity thus the Muslims refering to it as an adress to Christians is not false also the leaders of other Christian sects received similar letters.

Dont mean to nitpick but the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox might object to that statement.

But back on track maybe the Muslim leaders that collaborated on this letter to the Christians might make a start by motivating their own people in Egypt to start treating the Coptic minority a little better. Until I see some kind of attempt at equality from the Muslims toward their own christian populations its just words to me.

[Warlord]

Cheers dude, I know most of the mosques here in the UK are Wahabi, wasn't sure about the eastern european, Bosnian, Kosovan etc

By the number of Bosnians and probably Kosovans here in Jeddah and Riyadh, yes, Wahabbi influence is growing. There's so much money, why shouldn't it.

The largest mosque in Europe is 80km away from the Vatican and funded by the Saudi royal family. The Vatican ok'd the building of a tiny mosque/prayer area for Muslims within the Vatican walls, hoping for reciprocity with Muslim countries.

Not to be totally biased, I've just come from attending a mass in Bahrain today. There are also similar churches in Qatar, UAE, Oman etc.....Not to mention those Arabic countries with an indigenous Christian population like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Palestine and of course Lebanon, mostly are Catholics and Orthodox. Only Saudi Arabia which considers itself the center of Islam does not allow for the building of house of worship for other faiths, sometimes even other sects of Islam like the Shi'ite, Druze, Ismailis and such.

The Gulf Arabs, Khaleej, don't have these indigenous Christian population but except for Saudi Arabia they do allow Christians to practice their faiths. These Christian population are from the expatriate work force that often than not, exceed the native population. I don't see much animosity between the Muslims and Christians there. In fact, outside the Churches is a vibrant business environment of shops owned by Muslims catering to Christian customers.

What's really worrying is how countries like Pakistan and Indonesia treat their indigenous Christian population. In countries like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Palestine and Lebanon, the Christian population is ingrained in the local cultures over there that they don't experience the level of animosity from the majority Muslims. Although yes, the Coptics in Egypt do experience occasional violence and official discrimination and much much worse for Palestinian Catholics.

[Eoin666]

By the number of Bosnians and probably Kosovans here in Jeddah and Riyadh, yes, Wahabbi influence is growing. There's so much money, why shouldn't it.

The largest mosque in Europe is 80km away from the Vatican and funded by the Saudi royal family. The Vatican ok'd the building of a tiny mosque/prayer area for Muslims within the Vatican walls, hoping for reciprocity with Muslim countries.

Not to be totally biased, I've just come from attending a mass in Bahrain today. There are also similar churches in Qatar, UAE, Oman etc.....Not to mention those Arabic countries with an indigenous Christian population like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Palestine and of course Lebanon, mostly are Catholics and Orthodox. Only Saudi Arabia which considers itself the center of Islam does not allow for the building of house of worship for other faiths, sometimes even other sects of Islam like the Shi'ite, Druze, Ismailis and such.

The Gulf Arabs, Khaleej, don't have these indigenous Christian population but except for Saudi Arabia they do allow Christians to practice their faiths. These Christian population are from the expatriate work force that often than not, exceed the native population. I don't see much animosity between the Muslims and Christians there. In fact, outside the Churches is a vibrant business environment of shops owned by Muslims catering to Christian customers.

What's really worrying is how countries like Pakistan and Indonesia treat their indigenous Christian population. In countries like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Palestine and Lebanon, the Christian population is ingrained in the local cultures over there that they don't experience the level of animosity from the majority Muslims. Although yes, the Coptics in Egypt do experience occasional violence and official discrimination and much much worse for Palestinian Catholics.

Informative mate, thanks for read, but aren't the wahabbis the puritans of the muslim world, and with so much money funding their brand of ideology can only bring more conflict in more liberal western societies, and more violent animosity to non-muslims in places like Indonesia and Africa

[Invisigoth]

Is all the bickering really necessary? I mean we are all adults here instead of calling each other names why not engage in open and peacful dialog to attempt and reach common ground?


Still hating God and the people who believe in Him?

Great start, five points to you Sir.

[Warlord]

Informative mate, thanks for read, but aren't the wahabbis the puritans of the muslim world, and with so much money funding their brand of ideology can only bring more conflict in more liberal western societies, and more violent animosity to non-muslims in places like Indonesia and Africa

Wahabbis are a big worry. I hate them with all my Catholic heart. They are spreading this deceased way of thinking. The intolerance stems from the Wahabbis.

Example. A Syrian engineer friend of mine, educated in Syria, puts his high school aged son in a Saudi run school. There came a day when he put on an Arabic pop music cassette in his car stereo and his son objected because he said that it was not allowed in Islam. Turns out, that the kid learned it from school. That's a taste of Wahabbi.

[Mastermind]

In regard to the Muslim letter to the Pope…this is how I see it….

We (people of the World) are in a hell of a mess. Up until about fifty years ago, the world's people were divided into three basic camps The Western Power Elite, the Ultra Poor Who Didn't Really Matter (and still don’t and never will), and the Rest of the People Who Didn't Really Matter.

Then, in those days, the world was in balance. The Western Power Elite played and warred amongst themselves and pretty much had their way no matter who they trampled over. What did it matter? Everyone else Didn’t Really Matter, anyway.

Then, the Western Power Elite developed a weakness called socialism and grew a rather silly conscience. Their weakness is that they suddenly pretended to give a damn about all the Rest Who Didn't Really Matter...and that gave a new strength to the Rest Who Didn't Really Matter and now they suddenly became the People Who Matter! And guess what? It turned out a pretty huge number of Muslims were part of that bunch Who didn't really Matter! And now, because of oil and the willingness of the New Conscience Burdened Western Power Elite to actually pay for that oil instead of just taking it as they would have only 75 or so years ago when they were just ThePre-Conscience Western Power Elite, the New People Who Matter (Most of Whom Turned Out to be Muslims), now have a huge supply of Cash to do what the hell ever they want! And, "Surprise!"...they want to take over the Whole Gdmned world and pretty much trade places with the Conscience Burdened Western Power Elite!

Now, as I see it, something has to change...again. If the Western Power Elite With a Conscience don’t want to become The New People Who Don’t Really Matter, they will simply have to get rid of that burdensome silly conscience....Where did that thing come from anyway? But, the truth of the situation is, to fix the present problem with all those People Who Now Have Money and Power and Suddenly Matter And Who Are Mostly Muslims the new conscience has to not only be abandoned, it has to be shoved so far back in the dark, nasty part of the mental closet it will look quite a bit as shabby as it did in the Bad Old Dark Ages.

The reluctance of shedding that conscience is the problem. It is not likely a matter of IF it is shed…but merely a question of WHEN.

The Western Power Elite have shed their silly conscience just about every time they needed to in the past…as they did from 1942-1945, for example. And, when the conscience is shed this time, there may not again be just three basic camps of people on the planet …very likely there will be only two…and I leave you, poor reader, to determine which two that will likely be.