The advantage of having a shotgunner?

[Porta_jon]

i was wondering why having a shotgunner is so important in all areas of military/law enforcement?

besides being able to open doors, and f*ck people up at close ranges, does having a shot gun on the team really add to the general effectiveness of the group?

in combat/law enforcement groups where there are possibilities of extended range fire fights, the guy whos stuck with the shot gun is kind of at a disatvantage, and it would suck to carry around a full size rifle as well as the shot gun.

i would love to hear any thoughts on this, cause i know you guys know alot more about it than I.


thanks

[Roger Rabbit]

Program called Deadline Iraq which was about journalists who were present during the initial invasion and the capture of Baghdad shows one scene where a wounded US soldier on a stretcher uses a shotgun to shoot an attacking enemy.

[1Cie GevGn]

I know in Vietnam the point man would carry one, but they had to make a choice between the devastating effect of a shotgun of the quick rate of fire of a M14 (early days)

In Law enforcement it's more about opening doors, + I know they are more modifiable for less-then-lethal ammo.

(maybe they just get a discount ;) )

[scm77]

Program called Deadline Iraq which was about journalists who were present during the initial invasion and the capture of Baghdad shows one scene where a wounded US soldier on a stretcher uses a shotgun to shoot an attacking enemy.

woot woot woot That was awesome! woot

Does anybody know where I can download that program? I want to see it again.

[Roger Rabbit]

Try kazaa

[scm77]

Got It woot woot

[Obergefreiter]

I would also bet that the police use them for the intimidation factor. I have passed by police bearing down on someone with a 12 guage, and from 50 feet away that thing looked HUGE.

My father was a policeman for several years, he would tell me that the best way to break up a fight or show someone that you were incharge was to pump the action. The sound alone command so much respect that no one ever caused problems after that.

[MEGR]

Shotgun is one of the best CQB guns you can carry. Specops units that operated in the suffocating jungles loved the Ithaca model 37, and used it very effectively to kick major arse.. Now.. I would agree.. I'm not even sure if reg. infantry even assign a "shotgunner," but in some situations, it would be useful.

[scm77]

There's some pictures of the Canadians in Afghanistan carrying shotguns on patrol. There's one in the Canadians in A-stan thread.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Why not just have a shotgunner with a rifle like in Tears of the sun?

[MVSpartan117]

Perhaps LSS will become issued at the squad level....

[tuckerhat]

in terms of law enforcement, shotguns have a large psychological effect on those who would opposed officers. Also good for crowd control.

[squeak]

Shotty's can have less lethal rounds in them aswell.

I was watching Full Metal Jacket the other day, one of the guys had a Shotty and M-16.

[Laconian]

The use of the shotgun in military, in modern times, goes back to the trench clearing guns of WWI. The Winchester 97 (& Ithacas if I remember right) even had bayonet lugs. After the war, with the evolvement of portable, full-auto sub guns, the pumps fell out of favor. Their places have remained as special gear for MOUT & MP work, and other special circumstances. But the US Army after WWII was primarily concerned with fighting the Soviet horde on the plains of NW Europe (even during Korea and VN it was feared they would come through Fulda gap) and the shotgun is really not needed in a Tank battle.

In LE it became common practice because rifles with police did not come about until LAPD started the SWAT thing in the '70s. Anybody going into a known or suspected gunfight armed only with a handgun is just wrong so shotguns filled the void. There is a big image issue with US police carrying "Assault Rifles" and cities & counties are conservative when it comes to Robocop PDs ( a politcal reality). Not every building clearing or robbery in progress call is handled by the SWAT guys. Heck a lot of PDs & SOs still don't even have them, so the responding folks were given pump guns. They're easy to train on, simple to use, etc. a lot of bang for the buck & with 00 buck a lot of knock down power for not a whole lot of distance-as compared to errant 5.56 round going down the city street-but if needed a shotgun slug will reach out to about 100 yds. Slugs are also good for taking down cars, if placed right.

Only after the North Hollywood bank shoot out did some agencies let their uniform guys go to a patrol rifle in a marked unit.
Mission dependent, I'd take an entry gun (14-16" bbl shotgun w/light) over almost anyother longun for warrant work.
Just an opinion.

[scm77]

In Blackhawk Down some of the Delta guys have shotguns and M4's :lol: woot

[OB Kenobi]

In Blackhawk Down some of the Delta guys have shotguns and M4's :lol: woot

http://dboy.cpgl.net/USA/M16/M4/m4masker.jpg

One of these? I believe it's called a "Masterkey."

[FallenAngel]

In Blackhawk Down some of the Delta guys have shotguns and M4's :lol: woot

Technically....those aren't M4s. They were 'CAR15's.

M4s weren't introduced until about a year after that mission.

[scm77]

http://dboy.cpgl.net/USA/M16/M4/m4masker.jpg

That's not what I mean, but that is pretty cool.

They had a 'Car15' and then the also had a shotgun somehow rigged to their backs with the barrel pointing to the ground.

[Michael RVR]

From what i remember that was only in the movie, in the book he had one attached underneath the CAR-15.

[TacoDelRio]

My Rem 870 (in avatar) is great for hungle-type environments, where the typical ENGAGEMENT range (You can shoot further, but it ain't yo business!) is under 25m. I would feel comfortable carrying it in a jungle, in an urban area (as long as my team mates had rifles etc), or anything else where less-lethal ammo could be useful, like home defense kinda junk.

US Army infantry tactics usually leave out shotgunners, but that's just for conventional forces. I like my shotgun, and I'm sticking to it!

DB

[XASA]

As several have already noted, a shotgun is a preferred weapon for MOUT, jungle or other heavy foliage area of operations and home defense. Since a shotgun's effective range is 50 meters (100 meters with slugs), it is extremely limited for other combat, which is why we are seeing rifle-shotgun combos or shotgunners also carrying an issued rifle.

[angry cow]

Once again, real infantry work isn't a video game, you actually have to carry all that ****. As light as an M-16 or M-4 is, it still feels pretty damn heavy at the end of the day. Now imagine having to carry the rifle, the ammo for the rifle, which usually ways more than the rifle itself, plus a shotgun, and shotguns are ALWAYS heavy, (they have to be to control recoil) and the ammo for a shotgun. And you guys are talking about having different ammo types as well. Now nobody doubts the effectiveness of a shotgun. But if you don't know where your next patrol will take you, (infantry usually don't get alot of preparation time) and you can only pick one or the other, than you're going to pick the best all-around weapon. Not having a rifle when your attacked at stand-off distance is the equivalent of having one less man in your squad. And thats something NO squad leader would ever have.

[TacoDelRio]

It goes with the times. There were infantryman in VietNam who only carried M79's, no rifle, not even a pistol. Then the XM148 and XM203 came out, changing everything a bit.

Unconventional / small units can have a shotgunner, as they train and drill heavilly with such a person in mind. If the engagement range differs, adn terrain permits, you can easily switch formation.

In urban areas, there are these magical things on doors called "locks" that don't let you in unless you have a key. A 12 key seems to work for most locks.

Video games? WTF are you talking about?

DB

[GazB]

A shotgun is a wonderfully versatile weapon for a hunter. You can pretty much get a round type that is ideal for hunting almost any type of game except the really big game. (No solid slugs are no good for really big game... they lack the penetration to take on game like elephants or rhinos.... especially in 12 guage).

As a military weapon they are very limited and are only really good for trench warfare (ie WWI with the US doughboys... the germans protested at the use of soft deformable projectiles which violated the hague convention, but they introduced in the same war the flame thrower and poison gas so no one listened) or jungle or urban warfare. They make excellent replacements for pistols and in some cases SMGs, but are bigger and heavier than both and their ammo is large and bulky.

The only effective anti personel rounds issued as standard are buckshot and solid slugs. Flechettes are also available and would be effective against troops with soft body armour.

[angry cow]

Most people seem to get their impressions of soldier loadouts from playing computer games and the like. I hear all the time, well why don't they just carry a pistol, and a submachinegun, and a rifle, and a shotgun, missle launcher, grenade launcher, etc . . .

That's all I was refering to . . .

[XASA]

From what I've seen of the pictures posted here on the forum and on televised news reports, G.I.s who are armed with a shotgun usually are carrying it slung for specialized use while carrying a rifle at the ready.

Almost all of the infantry in Iraq is mechanized-- they are either riding in Bradleys, M113, Strykers or Humvees-- so, unlike their brethern in former wars, they arn't "marching" to battle. Also, think of the modern infantryman having a choice of weapons not unlike a golfer having a choice of clubs to choose for a particular job. Obviously, no one wants to hump a rifle, grenade launcher, AT4, shotgun, pistol, grenades, ammo, bayonet, fighting knife and water for any distance, but it's nice to know you have access to any of them if the task requires it.

[Geezah]

The use of the shotgun in military, in modern times, goes back to the trench clearing guns of WWI. The Winchester 97 (& Ithacas if I remember right) even had bayonet lugs. After the war, with the evolvement of portable, full-auto sub guns, the pumps fell out of favor. Their places have remained as special gear for MOUT & MP work, and other special circumstances. But the US Army after WWII was primarily concerned with fighting the Soviet horde on the plains of NW Europe (even during Korea and VN it was feared they would come through Fulda gap) and the shotgun is really not needed in a Tank battle.

In LE it became common practice because rifles with police did not come about until LAPD started the SWAT thing in the '70s. Anybody going into a known or suspected gunfight armed only with a handgun is just wrong so shotguns filled the void. There is a big image issue with US police carrying "Assault Rifles" and cities & counties are conservative when it comes to Robocop PDs ( a politcal reality). Not every building clearing or robbery in progress call is handled by the SWAT guys. Heck a lot of PDs & SOs still don't even have them, so the responding folks were given pump guns. They're easy to train on, simple to use, etc. a lot of bang for the buck & with 00 buck a lot of knock down power for not a whole lot of distance-as compared to errant 5.56 round going down the city street-but if needed a shotgun slug will reach out to about 100 yds. Slugs are also good for taking down cars, if placed right.

Only after the North Hollywood bank shoot out did some agencies let their uniform guys go to a patrol rifle in a marked unit.
Mission dependent, I'd take an entry gun (14-16" bbl shotgun w/light) over almost anyother longun for warrant work.
Just an opinion.

http://www.southernohiogun.com/images/IAC-M97T.angle.jpg
http://www.southernohiogun.com/images/IAC-M97T.jpg

During the time of gangsters like Al Capone and the Barrow gang, law enforcement officers were using BAR's and Thompson's to match what they were up against.

[Laconian]

Geezah,
Nice pics. True enough about the Thompson's & BARs. In fact the first gov't contract for the Thompson was to the US Postal Inspectors - the law enforcement arm of the Post Office Dept (now the Postal Service) not the military. Of course Hoover & his folks at the FBI got them as well, as did the T-men working Prohibition cases. As the Roaring '20s subsided into the Great Depression, Prohibition was repealed and most of the state & local agencies never went to full auto stuff, because of expense & training. The shotgun, both pump & double barrel remained the long gun of choice for law enforcement.

Stay safe...

[-=TFN=-Karab]

Is that pic of the "Masterkey" featuring the M4 or the CAR-15?

I have a little trouble identifying diff between M4 from CAR, but from my little experience in distinguishing between the two... My guess is that it is a CAR-15. If I'm wrong, please correct me (and maybe explain how to identify between the two)...

This "masterkey" looks awesome hehe :D