Personal Sidearms [Archive]

GETSOME

10-12-2007, 01:57 PM

Can you carry your own sidearm ,one that wasnt issued to you ,say you "found" on the battelfield ?
Is it allowed or against regulations to have arms that wasnt issued?

USMC Tanker

10-12-2007, 02:15 PM

Depends on your command...

9.9 times out of 10 it's a no.

DeltaWhisky58

10-12-2007, 02:23 PM

Can you carry your own sidearm ,one that wasnt issued to you ,say you "found" on the battelfield ?
Is it allowed or against regulations to have arms that wasnt issued?

I've come across some weird generalisations in my time on this board, but this is one of the oddest questions.

1. What unit/nationality?
2. Where?
3. Now/historic?

There are clearly many different answers.

The original question is about as specific as asking "is war dangerous"?

GETSOME

10-12-2007, 02:29 PM

I've come across some weird generalisations in my time on this board, but this is one of the oddest questions.

1. What unit/nationality?
2. Where?
3. Now/historic?

There are clearly many different answers.

The original question is about as specific as asking "is war dangerous"?
Whats the US army or British army policy in carring side arms not issued in todays deployment in Iraq or Afganistan?

flanker7

10-12-2007, 02:32 PM

Hollis

10-12-2007, 02:38 PM

A somewhat related question:
Is taking posesion of an enemy weapon, and keeping it as a suvenir or something, without an order from above, considered looting?
I mean isn't it against military ragulations/law?

NO, not weapons or military equipment. US laws need to be obey, like in cases of automatic weapons.

Looting is completely another issue.

StukaJr

10-12-2007, 02:41 PM

On another forum, a chap is claiming his M1A in desert painted Sage stock is a "Iraq bring back" - for all I know, the term "bring back" was not used since Vietnam, am I right? Even if he brought back just the stock, sounds a little fishy to me - don't they check what people bring back, anyhow? I saw contents of one pile from such inspection and someone was trying to bring back some UXO's p-)

flanker7

10-12-2007, 02:43 PM

So HOLLiS, you mean that is not looting but it's against military law eitherhow?

T.H.E. rooster

10-12-2007, 03:03 PM

I read an article in SOF about some of the elaborate weapons owned by Saddam and his posse being discovered. It was mainly a bunch of anodized ak's and such, but there were some fancy bolt actions and pistols, however, a side not in the article said some Marine officers got in big time trouble for trying to bring some home. Maybe its like Hollis said, and they were auto's.

Hollis

10-12-2007, 03:04 PM

So HOLLiS, you mean that is not looting but it's against military law eitherhow?

No, it varies, see USMC Tanker's post. Obviously some captured weapons are not allowed in the states and also there would be orders about not "taking" them home.

Each command may have restrictions on what can be taken as a souvenir in captured Military weapons/equipment. I don't know what the new rules would be.

Looting, I believe is stealing civilian's property or...

flanker7

10-12-2007, 03:07 PM

Got it. Thank you!

USMC Tanker

10-12-2007, 04:24 PM

Whats the US army or British army policy in carring side arms not issued in todays deployment in Iraq or Afganistan?If you weren't issued the weapon, you won't carry it.

A somewhat related question:
Is taking posesion of an enemy weapon, and keeping it as a suvenir or something, without an order from above, considered looting?
I mean isn't it against military ragulations/law?It's not considered looting, but also not authorized. You won't get it by customs either.

On another forum, a chap is claiming his M1A in desert painted Sage stock is a "Iraq bring back" - for all I know, the term "bring back" was not used since Vietnam, am I right? Even if he brought back just the stock, sounds a little fishy to me - don't they check what people bring back, anyhow?Purchasing your own stock, using it in Iraq, and bringing it home is acceptable. If he's claiming it was issued and he kept it, he's full of s**t. A Sage stock would definitely be accounted for by his command's armory. I highly doubt that when the time came to return issued weapons, he handed over an M14 reciever, barrel, and trigger group but minus the stock. When you're coming home from Iraq, customs inspects all gear, bags, packs, equipment etc. The forward post offices inspect all packages inside/out as well.

I read an article in SOF about some of the elaborate weapons owned by Saddam and his posse being discovered. It was mainly a bunch of anodized ak's and such, but there were some fancy bolt actions and pistols, however, a side not in the article said some Marine officers got in big time trouble for trying to bring some home. Maybe its like Hollis said, and they were auto's.Many commands brought back weapons/souvenirs for unit displays at higher headquarters and such stateside...obviously through official and approved channels. Service members acting alone, attempting to bring back war trophies for personal possession or gain is unauthorized.

Bottom line here, gents: There's official/authorized ways to do things, and then there's unofficial/unauthorized ways to do things.

Jarhead

10-12-2007, 04:33 PM

In the BW you are not alowed to take your own weapons to duty or bring back weapons from a conflict zone, only if they are not able to fire again

gaijinsamurai

10-12-2007, 05:01 PM

X2 what USMC Tanker wrote.
Nowadays (well, when I was in), most units check their soldiers'/marines' belongings pretty thoroughly to prevent them from bringing back weapons as souvenirs. Kinda sucks.

Hollis

10-12-2007, 05:07 PM

X2 what USMC Tanker wrote.
Nowadays (well, when I was in), most units check their soldiers'/marines' belongings pretty thoroughly to prevent them from bringing back weapons as souvenirs. Kinda sucks.

In RVN, there was a way for certain captured weapons to become sopuvenirs, such as a SKS. The PMO held the weapon until the Marine rotated home, this was on OKI.

gaijinsamurai

10-12-2007, 05:11 PM

You guys had it good, Hollis. That was in the days before officers decided to ruin our fun.

dave81

10-12-2007, 07:37 PM

A somewhat related question:
Is taking posesion of an enemy weapon, and keeping it as a suvenir or something, without an order from above, considered looting?
I mean isn't it against military ragulations/law?
Current US Army policy* is that such "souvenirs" (any and all military-related enemy equipment) are considered "war trophies" and are forbidden to be in one's possession. Not to say it doesn't happen, but you're not supposed to have any such thing, unless you have a receipt showing you actually purchased the item (the PX and local bazaars sell Saddam-era Iraqi uniforms and bayonets and such).

*Policy does not apply to OMFG D3LT4!!1! and similar units.

Hollis

10-12-2007, 08:56 PM

You guys had it good, Hollis. That was in the days before officers decided to ruin our fun.

A lot of the captured weapons where used for trading stock for needs of the company. If we could not steal what we needed from the Army, we could always trade with the Navy for what we needed.

BillySing

10-12-2007, 09:40 PM

I do believe that the US 101st Airborne captured a gold plated Iraq Tabuk carbine (copy of yugo M70AB) during an operation in Kirkuk, which was then given to the Aussie forces as a gift.

Now it sits in the Australian War Memorial...........

So I guess in essence, that was a bring back / trophy.

raulv

10-12-2007, 11:09 PM

guess who owns the .45 or whatever handgun saddam was captured with!!!!! Bush!!!!

Hollis

10-12-2007, 11:30 PM

guess who owns the .45 or whatever handgun saddam was captured with!!!!! Bush!!!!

I think you will probably find out it is the property of the US Government in some museum or display somewhere.

velvet-cream

10-13-2007, 01:59 AM

I think it boils down to whether the souvenir is taken by a "unit" or by an individual.

If a unit wanted to souvenir a weapon, I'm sure the officers in that unit could put through the relevant paperwork to bring it back legally.

Our armoury use to have all kinds of weapons like AK's etc. Some of the weapons were suppose to be deactivated, and to be used as display pieces. However, they're stuck in the armoury because the other buildings were not secure enough to store "weapons". (even though they would have been deactivated!!)

velvet-cream

10-13-2007, 02:05 AM

As for the policy with sidearms - With Australia the answer is no.

Secondly, it is not a good idea to use a "pick up" weapon unless it is an emergency. You never know what condition the weapon is in, and it should be checked by an armourer first. Otherwise the weapon could end up hurting you.

Laconian

10-13-2007, 10:34 AM

You guys had it good, Hollis. That was in the days before officers decided to ruin our fun.
Back in the day it was not uncommon for guys to bring back all kinds of cool stuff. I remember more than one li'l old lady strolling into the PD with a Thompson or Sten, P-08 Luger, etc., and wanting them out of the house now that hubby had passed on. Most had found their way back from WWII.

Nowadays, those same things will be prosecuted by ICE/ATF/CID/OSI/NCIS/EIEIO take your pick. It wasn't officers that changed the law, it was politicians.

I've even heard of guys not being allowed to bring back dirt.

gaijinsamurai

10-13-2007, 12:33 PM

I know it's the politicians, Laconian. This former enlisted man just couldn't pass up the opportunity to bash officers!

The first time I remember this being an issue was Grenada, when a lot of soldiers got busted trying to bring back captured weapons.

Hollis

10-13-2007, 12:54 PM

Gaijin, we not able to bring back AK's or similar weapons, SKSs and bolt action.

I had a underfold AK (we called a AK 50 as to the fixed stock AK47) I sold it to another. The word was the Corps really did not do much to you if you got caught, except it took about a 6 months legal hold once you got back to the states to get it all sorted out. That means for 6 months, a Marine would get the crappiest details on base.

I did have a NVA belt, wallet and some other stuff I kept. I just shipped it back home. Stuff like that was ok.

California Joe

10-13-2007, 01:40 PM

My Moms neighbor that was a tank driver with Patton, brought back a huge Nazi flag, the parade bayonet he gave me, a K98, and a Luger.

USMC Tanker

10-13-2007, 02:27 PM

I tried to bring back a tube of Iraqi sand but customs canked it.

I barely managed to get a dead Iraqi's identification papers and AK bayonet past Camp Fallujah's post office clerks.

zonk

10-13-2007, 02:29 PM

i managed to get 6 ak bayonets back and gave them to family members as presents

USMC Tanker

10-13-2007, 02:42 PM

I should have brought this home (back in 2005) p-)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/Military/MeGoldPlatedAK.jpg

Hollis

10-13-2007, 02:59 PM

I should have brought this home (back in 2005) p-)

yeah, and you would be still in the brig. rofl

Damn, I miss the days of the red line brigs....

mcc-dano

10-13-2007, 03:01 PM

I highly doubt that when the time came to return issued weapons, he handed over an M14 reciever, barrel, and trigger group but minus the stock.

I don't know if this is correct, but I read somewhere that you can modify your issued weapon only if it can be returned to the condition it was issued to you, in the sense that he bought the sage stock for a M14 he was already issued, and returned the old stock with the M14 sans the Sage...is that possible?

USMC Tanker

10-13-2007, 03:05 PM

Yes, that's what I said...

If he bought his own stock, used it in Iraq, and kept his stock once he returned home, that's perfectly acceptable. No different than bringing your own optics, slings, pistol grips, lights, etc.

mcc-dano

10-13-2007, 04:06 PM

oh...nevermind, I'm retarded:cantbeli:

raulv

10-13-2007, 05:00 PM

I think you will probably find out it is the property of the US Government in some museum or display somewhere.
i read an article saying President Bush added to his nice collection.....

raulv

10-13-2007, 05:01 PM

I should have brought this home (back in 2005) p-)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/dcarter_usmc/Military/MeGoldPlatedAK.jpg
that makes me wonder what General kept that piece!!!!!

USMC Tanker

10-13-2007, 05:50 PM

Yeah, it's a big conspiracy.

The President and his generals importing captured enemy automatic weapons and keeping them for their grand collections.

Who cares who gets them?

TacoDelRio

10-13-2007, 07:09 PM

That thing would be a ton of fun to shoot.... just gotta be careful of the supporting hand!

Bling bling, Tanker.

dave81

10-13-2007, 07:21 PM

I thought you meant you wanted to bring home the hot hot Marine in the pic. Mrowr..

USMC Tanker

10-13-2007, 07:27 PM

He is hot isn't he? ;)

Taco, what supporting hand? You shoot that b*tch one handed, cocked to the side...

TacoDelRio

10-13-2007, 09:04 PM

Good point.

Hollis

10-13-2007, 09:13 PM

He is hot isn't he? ;)

Taco, what supporting hand? You shoot that b*tch one handed, cocked to the side...

Hey Taco has a set of this on all his pistols. Really helps him.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/Homeboyzgunsights.jpg

TacoDelRio

10-13-2007, 09:19 PM

I don't need those, I've gotten so good hits just HAPPEN.

USMC Tanker

10-13-2007, 09:38 PM

Damn homie...that's tight!

Word to yo motha.

D-gin

10-13-2007, 11:40 PM

I should have brought this home (back in 2005) p-)

Should have told them "finders keepers".

p-)

gaijinsamurai

10-14-2007, 10:39 AM

In 1991 we could bring back anything that wasn't a part of a weapon. My souvenirs included an Iraqi/Soviet tankers helmet (pulled out of a BMP), an Iraqi AK magazine pouch, a gas mask, infantry helmet, and some Iraqi dinar notes.
I was really tempted to smuggle back an RPG and a Yugo RPK. I seriously considered building an embarkation box (basically a big crate) with a false bottom (I was a combat engineer, with access to our battalion's carpentry shop) to put the stuff in, but decided it wasn't worth it.
Two guys in our company tried to mail AKs back and were busted. Both received dihonorable discharges, following brig time.
They wouldn't even let us bring back optics.

velvet-cream

10-14-2007, 11:21 AM

USMC Tanker

10-14-2007, 01:58 PM

I heard some of tankers were busted trying to smuggle back weapons in the sub-turret floor.

dave81

10-14-2007, 02:20 PM

gaijinsamurai

10-14-2007, 02:50 PM

I read about that too.
When I was a private at USMC Combat Engineer School in 1986, I had an instructor who told us he shipped home a disassembled AK-47 from Vietnam, amongst jeep parts.
With all the good-natured bullsh*t we were always fed, it's hard to know whether or not he was telling us the truth.

wiking

10-14-2007, 10:34 PM

remember, gun control in Britain didn't really start untill after WW2, because the politicians wanted control on the captured weapons making their way back with discharged troops.

Here in Norway there was, and still is probably, alot of weapons that stayed with resistance members after the war, and there was also a mentality in Norway through most of the cold war era, that if you didn't have atleast a old Krag or Mauser rifle unregistered and stashed away, so if the soviets came you could keep it off them, you weren't a good, patriotic Norwegian.

The chaps who stashed their dropped Sten, Thompson or beloved Rock-Ola Mfg. M1 Carbine and maybe a pistol taken off some officer after he surrendered, are dying out now, and those weapons are ending up in museums or private collections, or they're destroyed :-(

BillySing

10-15-2007, 02:21 AM

I read in Army Times or something about some guys who successfully brought back several AKs (placed inside acetylene tanks and welded shut) but got caught when they tried to sell them to undercover FBI agents.

That'd be a hairy operation, chopping open an acetylene cylinder! You really got to make sure all the acetylene has been purged. or kaaaaaa booom.

Then you got to make sure all the acetone has been drained. Or kaaaaaa booom.

Then you got to remove to porous mass from the interior.

Still, I know of blokes coming back from 'Nam with disassembled RPK's.... It's all a matter of divving up the small components into crates that have certain destinations and then smuggling the large parts in cunning places.

dave81

10-15-2007, 02:52 PM

Couple paragraphs down:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071500909.html

Panzerjaeger12

10-15-2007, 09:48 PM

I heard some of tankers were busted trying to smuggle back weapons in the sub-turret floor.

Also stuff in the fuel cells. When I was at Irwin after 1st Gulf War, whoever had the tanks before us, in the war removed the fuel pumps, and had 2 AK's in the fuel cells with wire attached to them. The only problem was that their tanks didnt go back to the units that had them, they went to Irwin instead. They were found 6 years later, when the pump went out and the mechanics wondered why they were so heavy when they tried to remove them.

CID was called, and they got the serial numbers of the tanks, and were going to trace them back to the crews that used them in the 1st Gulf war. Dont know anything past that.

BillySing

10-16-2007, 03:10 AM

Couple paragraphs down:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071500909.html

In March 2004, two soldiers from Fort Campbell, Ky., smuggled back 18 machine guns from Iraq and tried to sell them on the street for $1,000 each. They hid the weapons by sawing off the bottoms of oxygen tanks and putting the guns inside, prosecutors said. They then welded back the bottoms and put the tanks in a shipping case that was headed to the United States. They were caught when the "buyer" turned out to be an undercover federal agent. The soldiers later pleaded guilty to federal charges and were sentenced to prison terms.Thanks for the Info Source........

Today I found myself staring at an Acetylene cylinder, wondering how they did it so discreetly (couldn't figure it out, for the life of me)........... An Oxy Bottle would be far easier!