Worth a read

[Trident-za]

I found this article to be very interesting, published in the US "DefenceWatch" magazine (I'm not sure if it's only online).

I warn some of the more gung-ho americans that they may not appreciate all the comments. ( its written by an american in the armed forces though)

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=DefenseWatch.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=121&rnd=269.1491792226152

P.S. a few items are of interest to the recent threads on WDM and how long the "war" will go on for

[Gordon]

The man's got a point.

[Argyll]

The same one I've been making all along!!!!
This is no cake walk guys and it can very easily turn into another Somalia for both our countries!!

[James]

Very good article. During the last Gulf War, Colin Powell, then Chairman of the JCS, presented the "Powell Doctrine" - The plan for war should have a clear and well defined exit strategy.

[Royal]

One of the books on the YO's reading list at Lympstone (and I think at Sandhurst) is 'Bunch of Fives' by Gen Frank Kitson.

For those of you who don't know, Kitson wrote the book (excuse the pun) on CI Ops in Kenya, Malaya, Borneo and South Arabia in the '50s and early 60's.

I'd be interested to know if any of our friends accross the pond have read it (or if there is a similar tome from the early days of SF in Vietnam - when things were working).

[Trident-za]

I'm really suprised at the lack of replies to this....

[Argyll]

I'm not!!.................think about it trident,and what it's implying!!,and see who has responded!!!

[Trident-za]

Sorry, Argyll... I was trying to be diplomatic :)

[Argyll]

"it's oh so quiet.....................!!!"

[Trigger]

What would you like to hear from us Yanks?
Ohhhh Noooo, not another Vietnam! Make love not war! F*** that S***!
IT'S BEEN 4 F***ING MONTHS! DO YOU THINK UNCLE SAM CAN SQUAT AND GRUNT AND 'VOILA' INSTANT PARADISE? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND GIVE IT SOME TIME. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE PERFECT. VIETNAM LASTED ALMOST 10 YEARS FOR US. If after a year, this crap is still happening, I will say I was wrong. I really get sick of hearing this f***ing worst case scenario crap all the time. Where's that 'stiff upper lip' that my english bretheren are famous for? A little CONFIDENCE please.
I'm not trying to insult you guys, I appreciate your input and respect your experience, but it pisses me off to hear it over and over.

[Trident-za]

Well, I was hoping for a rational and thought out response to what this soldier had to say on the matter.

I understand, though, that you are tired of hearing this stuff. I agree, too, that 4 months could never be enough time to sort out Iraq's problems. In fact, as I've said before, I think it will takes YEARS.

[Trigger]

Was my post irrational? difficult to understand?
My response is: give it some time, and quit rehashing the same tired 'another Vietnam' drivel. That article was nothing original. We see the same pessimistic, defeatist crap every day on TV or the newspaper. GROW A SPINE PEOPLE. Yes people are going to die, and that hurts me just as much as anyone else, but if we abandon everything that doesn't work INSTANTLY and are unwilling to give it our best effort, then what are we worth?

[Argyll]

what coming from your own Soldiers!!

[Trident-za]

No, your post wasn't irrational. You asked what we wanted to hear from the yanks - I anwered. Sorry if it came across as a criticism of your reply.

[Andyman]

Well isn't Canada deploying around 5000 troops to afghanistan in the next few months. I'm sure that will help aid the U.S and their war in Afghanistan. With the new reliefs does the U.S plan to maintain the same military presence iun afghanistan or will they redeploy some of the boys in Afghan back home or to a new front?

[Argyll]

I agree....Rome wasn't built in a day,but the point was you were all quick to bang on about Anti American,and here's one of your own stating the facts as he sees it ..........on the front line!!!

[Trident-za]

what coming from your own Soldiers!!

That is a good point, Argyll!

Surely words coming from US people on the ground in Iraq must count for something - even if it's not what you wanted to hear? Look at the link again, right at the top of the post you'll see "Soldiers for the Truth". The truth is what were are after, not gung-ho ignoring of reality, or anti-american/pro-american propoganda. The TRUTH.

[this last sentence isn't aimed at any one person, just a statement of intent on my part]

[Trigger]

He may or may not be one of ours, he's using a pseudonym. And so what if he is? It doesn't change the fact that it's the same negative outlook on everything we do.
Tangent time:
Let's say you're setting off a bug bomb in a roach infested house. Set it off, wait 15 minutes. Oh no! there's still bugs moving and coming out of woodwork, it's never gonna work DAMN! I guess I'll just leave and call it a failure, and quit my job as an exterminator.
I know it's an odd metaphor, but you know what I mean.

[Trident-za]

No, actually I don't.... simply because I DO NOT consider the war a failure and do not expect the coalition forces to withdraw anytime soon. I do NOT think they should, either..... Please show me where I, or any of the others posting in this thread, said or implied that....

I take it you are not a regular reader of DefenceWatch?

[ibstolidude]

For a man telling as it is from the "front Line" he has a lot of facts wrong or/and partially stated...period full stop. credibility gone with me. This actually reads as if his information of the going ons is from the media...that equals horse**** with me.

Pick A country and critics can be found of you military and political policies from with in.

As far as the critics calling for another Vietnam ...I have listened to this song and dance for Mog, haiti, bosnia, kosovo, afghansitan, and now dadada - iraq.

Go to CENTCOM website his description of the leaflets is wrong and taken out of the context of a coordinated media/iw campaign.

"The Army is basically using the same type of search and destroy and area sweep tactics as we did in Vietnam. A buddy of mine (Battalion CO) wrote me that said his Brigade Commander is even flying over his companies in a Blackhawk and giving them orders like a squad leader in the sky (how little things change)." - I never heard of this tactic in Vietnam - granted I was NOT there..but if your Brigade CO is doing this he is a busy man because:

1 x brigade of infantry - I will leave off the unit names for obvious reasonsbut go the the 4th ID website and confirm if you wish

a brigade from the 4th ID a unit he would be describing
1st Bn - 4 companies + staff
2nd Bn - 4 companies + staff
3rd Bn - 4 companies + staff
1 x engineer bn - 4 companies + staff
1x support bn - 4 companies + staff
1 x signal bn - 1x company + staff
1 x field arty bn - 4 cpmpanies + staf
1 x mi bn - 1 x company + staff
+ any attachemnts - any detachments

WOW that is a lot of flying over 26 companies + their staffs...busy, busy man
Shall we break that down into platoon and squad strength hell of a squad leader that guy must be.
OR possibly an exaggeration of the truth to make a point ....hmmmm what is more likely

In afghanistan we place constant and concentrated pressure on the groups still operating there... we constantly position our troops to actively seek out the enemy and deny them sanctuary - is it 100% a success yet? NO that is why they are called ongoing operations....are they flawlessly executed and planned NO..nothing is.

Atleast the guy could have gone the web and loooked up any number of manuals on the web and gotten the TTP involved in a G-war to use in his writtings.

Those friends I have spoke with and the real time videos I have seen have shown many areas where the US/Allies were very welcomed and recieved...that doesn't mena they love us or want us to stay for ever!! We were just a better alternative in ****ty choices fro many people.


What is worst about this article is that I agree with the point I think he is attempting to make, but not the manner in which he does it... we the allied forces (yes brits, cans, aussies, etc you are included ) are on the verge of a serious g-war...WE HAVE BEEN HERE many times before. Sometimes we have been successful; others we have not.
This article plays upon our emotions and our hopes/fears.. IT tels us what we believe is going n behind the scenes...well horse**** I'M NOT BUYING.. I have heard this routine before. IF you want to present this argument I will gladly help present it...this is not the facts you want to base your opnion of a possible quagmire on.

The only thing we can do is SUPPORT OR FIGHTING MEN (or person of undetermined gender and ****** preference) and hope that TTP's meet the conditions on the ground and that we are able leverage a mixture of military tactics and control with a diplomatic/political solution that will create the economic and security base required to rebuild Iraq under a lessthen hostile regime.

[Trident-za]

Now that was a rational, thought out response :) It actually challenged the article on the basis of facts and the points made in the article, not overall "negative tone". Thank you for taking the time to do that....

In terms of the "squad leader in the sky" idea, I suspect he was talking about micromanagement, and using helicopters to direct battles (much like in the move Black Hawk Down). Are you saying this doesn't happen? (I'm really curious about this, not challenging you)

[Argyll]

Trigger ,don't get me wrong,here I am in favour of time if it gets the job done properly,but I think the point this guy was making is that WE the coalition are slowly getting sucked into a guerrila style warfare,and you and I both know that is not good,it frustrates the troops on the ground as their bound by ROE,and it doesn't look good when "supposed " civilians are caught up in this!!
Lets not forget here ,the Coalition bombed Baghdad pretty heavily,and there's no denying that there was collateral damage to put it mildly,and no matter what,these folks have suffered,25 years of Saddam,3 major conflicts,and now an Army of Liberation/Occupation,of course there's going to be resentment.But ask yourself this,where did all the secret Police go?,Where are all the RG,and SRG?Where are the Iraqi SF,who by the very nature are trained in Guerilla style warfare!!
We must get Saddam fast as his followers will start to organise themselves into the Splinter Cells,and can cause a lot of damage,they do not care about civilian deaths,the attacks will gain momentum,and ferocity,and I don't believe the US people will allow another Somalia type tragedy.......you may think this is way out of line,and impossible well,you lost 19 men in that single incident,well we lost 6 last week in one single incident that parallels Somalia,thats only 30% of the US loss,but it is still a tragedy in its own right!!

[ibstolidude]

trident -

I actually can forsee and am concerned about the obvious possible outcomes of the situation but feel that the arguement is more important than the position...the argument in that piece seemed very week and ttom many people based their support based on tone not content for any of the arguments side.

Certainly the US Army has used and uses helicopters for command and control over major manuvuer elements...it would be foolish not to have an assett like that and not use it.... I have never seen a Cdr flying around telling people what to do in the manner described, but I'm sure it has happened especially if moving across the desert in a formation; he would be inthe best position to direct the movements of eveyone as he would be the only one to see everyone.

____________
Let's not let this be a habit....I am hear to make smartass comments that hold some semblence of reality/truth and look at pictures...and read rational people attempt to explain things to the irrational.

[Trigger]

Nice post stoli.

@Trident: If you don't think it's a failure then what was the point of posting the article in the first place? Maybe you just wanted to say "Oooh, look how bad it is, tsk, tsk. I told you it wouldn't work"

@Argyll, I don't know the answers to your questions, and a loss of a single coalition soldier whether he/she is U.S./U.K./Aussie is a tragedy to me, but I don't think the incident where you lost 6 is 'just like Somalia' I don't think you can compare the two.

[Trident-za]

What was the point of posting the article? Well, 2 things really. First, it is written something many people on this forum on interested in. Despite the fact that some people disagree with, it is relevent. Second, I'm after the truth, not just anti/pro propoganda. The truth cannot be arrived at without examing a variety of different pieces of info or opinions. Simple, really... If you only bother to read stuff you agree with, it's difficult to learn anything, in my opinion.

I still read many of the anti-french links/articles/opinions posted here, for example, even that I personally have nothing against them.

ibstolidude - thank you for replying about the helicopter bit, useful thoughts.

[Argyll]

Ok,can we break this down into paragraphs and comment accordingly?
And from my point of view I'll answer as I see it as it stands,again this is not in defence or to discredit the article.It is purely my Observations on the situation so far
1.This is true
2.True
3.Partial truth,daily attacks do occur,but they did so in NI as well
4.Is there any other way of conducting S&D missions,wht is the US SOP as I cannot comment,on this procedure,but It would mean a hell of a lot of troops!!
5.Again reasonably accurate,though I dispute that it's absoloute neccesary for the folks at home to know everything
6.A reasonable assumption,,the UK used to work on a 3:1 ratio in the use of force,eg A Battalion to attack a Company position etc.Again US SOP's may have a different force on force ratio
7.We used to call it "****ing",when someone watched your every movement,and reaction to specific incidents,such as Gunshots etc,its calle Intelligenge gathering,and we do it too!!When the term Brigade was used,I doubt it was meant as in every single asset within,leave out the support elements and you'll be more realistic,It would be foolish to deploy trrops who were not skilled in FIBUA,such as Artillery etc!
8.No conclusive proof,and a grey area!!,but where are all the RG,SRG,and Secret Police and also the Iraqi Special Forces,they were certainly all not Killed,most were not even on the Battle field,and that's scary!
9.There is bound to be intrusion,and ordinary Iraqis don't want troops in their homes no matter what,would you like it?
10.True,we are now in low tech warfare,where HUMINT is more appopriate than a JDAM!!.We must prevail within Iraq ...no question!!
I'm not going to comment on the Vietnam style doctrine it was before my time,and I am not familiar with the US SOP's during that war!
The last 3 paragaphs all hold some credibility

So to say the whole article has no credability seems a bit blinkered to the situation at hand!!

[Argyll]

Trigger,the point about the RMP's was that it all stemmed from an angry crowd,who turned on them,and that they were executed,from all accounts ,you tell me why there is no comparison,if anything,your Mission was planned,but it was the loss of the Blackhawk that set off the catastrophic chain of event,both incident went wrong very wrong!!
But I agree,every Coalition death is a tragedy in its own right!!

[Trident-za]

Another rational, thought out response :) This is much more interesting to read that the usual angry responses which have become common (I'm sure I'm guilty of this too :oops: )

[Gordon]

We see the same pessimistic, defeatist crap every day on TV or the newspaper.

As far as I see, and obviously i'm not the ground, he's just telling it how it is, he's not being defeatist. Do you see him say anywhere "we're all gonna f*****g die and lose this war so lets get out while we still can". Being realistic if things aren't going according to plan is not the same as being defeatist.

As to the fact he's using a pseudonym - maybe he's not who he says he is but I reckon if you were who he says is you'd use a pseudonym too as otherwise you'd have no job left.



"The Army is basically using the same type of search and destroy and area sweep tactics as we did in Vietnam. A buddy of mine (Battalion CO) wrote me that said his Brigade Commander is even flying over his companies in a Blackhawk and giving them orders like a squad leader in the sky (how little things change)." - I never heard of this tactic in Vietnam - granted I was NOT there

I wasn't there either but i've read a number of books from this period and they all mention, especially the ones written by chopper pilots who ferried the commanders around, that this is how the commanders controlled their troops while they were patrolling ... how else would it be possible to keep contact with and know the location of different companies / patrols over many square miles of jungle. Maybe i'm wrong, it's only what i've read.



But ask yourself this,where did all the secret Police go?,Where are all the RG,and SRG?Where are the Iraqi SF,who by the very nature are trained in Guerilla style warfare!!

That's one of the big questions, maybe they all shat themselves and legged it across the border ... :roll:


It's all been said in good faith, if you disagree feel free to rip me apart ... :backhand:

[ibstolidude]

all right smartass lets do that - and as you are using an article based off a US service man from the front libe you stated (but I saw nothing to indicate such) then us TTP's should be used

para 1: prove it look at the date and then at the amount of time. Well is it extended yet? NO that is an assumption - assumption is defined as:
1. The act of taking to or upon oneself.
2. The act of taking possession or asserting a claim: assumption of command.
3. Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition:
EXACTLY you take the words (took it upon yourself with out proof other than speculation) and use them to your will. period. never assume one thing will happen develop a series of possible Coarses of Actions and plan accordingly - you have NO idea that this wasn't part of the US/Allied contingency all along. YOU JUST ASSUME because it is convenient to your cause and makes an easy argument. para 1 = bunk

para2: Say s WHO the media???? What fool would base their opinion on the media reporting of military intelligence? Show me your proof of this statement other than this post?? para 2 = bunk

para3: This is not NI the comparison is laughable, the cultures are completely different, the methods and tactics used a different, the ground forces make up is different, on and on.... Show me the EFFORTS of the us pentagon to keep a lid on this???? GO the CENTCOM official website and you can read about it! That would US Department of Defense that is the Pentagon. Why write nearly 50 deaths - if we choose to deal in fact write the facts not the nearly - ohh cause it sounds better when you inflate the numbers to support your side. The numbers have been pushed aside by the press??? go the cnn.com - foxnews.com - and any other major US news online they post the accurate casualties lists along with the KIA/MIA's as published by the DOD!! - para 3 = bunk

para 4: I will not discuss current Tactics and procedures - certainly this is not the way your troops in NI conducted themselves or I would be force to take back the "Brits are great in the city" comment I made to Royal. - I addressed helicopter comment earlier. Are you going to tell me that the BDE Cdr is flying above his squads, above a hostile area (the prime g- man target) during the conduct of the mission and telling the Squad leaders what to do?? Are you really going to take this guys word from a buddy of his???? a infantry BDE 3000 troops ?? I think not. If this is that only way to conduct a cordon and search what are we doing in Afghansitan??? And if he didn't mean a Brigade then why say a brigade except to promote you cause at the cost of the facts! - para 4 = bunk

para 5: I agree it is essential for the US to understand that the war is important - why don't you mail everyone a card and remind them - if they choose not to care that is the choice of a free society... oh'well. I would agree that our track record isn't the best in UW for our conventional forces IF and WHEN that comes to fruition. The whole point of UW is that no major forces is fully readily equip to deal with it easily or the G's would never do it -

para 6: Large numbers of troops in afghanistan???? Where are you at? We had more troops in Bosnia in 96' then we did in Afghanistan?? Look at the numbers! Show me the facts! "It takes, on average, one battalion of troops to capture three Iraqi guerillas." where did this fact come from ?? show me the facts of it.. We have done quite well in detaining G's in the stan with much fewer numbers. or is this based on the past 4 moths on fighting when the focus wasn't on capturing but on troop movement?
"A guerilla war is inherently disproportionate because the guerrilla force is dispersed over a large geographic area, and its stealth and mobility requires a much larger force to contain it. " Gee you think If it didn't it would just be called WAR not guerilla war. But what about Counter insurgency? is that possible? to utilize more that just tanks and GI? para 6 - mostly bunk

para 7: "the guerrillas appear to be outfighting the regular Army forces. Of course this is not the case, yet if the Iraqi guerillas are merely holding their own or even losing in some cases, their continued operation generates a sense of power for the guerrilla movement and weakness for the counter guerrilla force" - again proper utilization of Counter Insurgency utilize the psychological and IO assets, use you SOF assets Use the farking doctrine - What are the sources of this information that we appear to be outfought??? The media? This guys daily intel brief? If used and controlled well their attacks can aslo be spotlighted by the coalition to show their negative affects on the population of the AOR - if thus utilized it provides a base to place a separation between the average non-combatant and the G-fighter - that causes the G-fighter to not be the heroic freedom fighter but regarded as an instigator and criminal whose actions lead to suffering and complications to law abiding peoples - And it has worked in many places in the past - IT MAY WORK here - only the men on the ground will determine. - para 7 half bunk - only tell the part that works for your cause.

para 8: as addressed see the CENTCOM website for the leaflets in question as review the radio scripts and other media outlets.. not a gray area the proof is there - Why only state the half truth because it suits the need. This has been an obstacle overcome in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Mac, Latin America, the stan - we don't always speak the language and good leader shave adapted - it is the policy that we are not after the average and ex soldiers - only those currently involved in operations against coalition so we will begin and continue to pressure them as best we can - see eastern a-stan. And you wrote " also the Iraqi Special Forces,they were certainly all not Killed,most were not even on the Battle field,and that's scary!: Really so the blended into the civilian populace and we can't find them but you personally know that they ere not even on the battle field?? If you KNOW THIS where are they now help us out! para 8 - half bunk - no real information given

para 9: "we see such things as in-country pregnancy rates and medical evaluation rates increasing on a weekly basis." Really where do we see this?? I have not, have you NO? Then we again take this guys word for it? Not me! The only paragraph so far that really address the heart of this matter - the one the real fears why this might not work as hoped and he adds a bunch of horse crap. as I already pasted. para9 - half bunk

para 10: The first sentence is ASSUMPTION unless you happen to be one of those men or know them personally.. Do you? Well he did though in the use of METT-T, so at least it is an army term. But do you happen to know that which is posted to be true? I am a long term military member - I don't know this to be true. I guess it is another ASSUMPTION. Or maybe we should not spend money on the future of our preparedness for modern warfare and scrape all technological advances for the military because this dude says we spend too much money - I guess he reviews our budgetary needs each fiscal year - How the **** do you buy humint? No more planes we need HUMINT - humint by nature is low cost - do you know what our Intel - counter intel - human intel - interrogators - other gov agencies are doing in Iraq or how good their intel network is?? NO you don't' you assumed again. para 10 ****ing bunk

the first 4 point he makes = are true except 4.. if the US populace determines we should leave then even though I'd disagree WELCOME TO A DEMOCRACY.

the last 2 points are the best part of the article!! outstanding

Amazing the way he blasts the Cheney Rumsfield assumption with an ASSUMPTION!!! Really is that what they thought - it certainly isn't what they stated at that time!! Look back at the text - it is on the web they stated it would be a long difficult road with many bumps!

And the last paragraph describes a G-war. That is what happens - the real question now is how well do we resolve it!


It the story was published a big "What if!" the cool. But it appears to be a story stating what is and is to be...horse****.
-
I agree it is highly likely we will screw this up in Iraq.
But not because it will be as described, but because of the last 2 points he made. We are in the danger of failing to utilize our resources to create and environment where the G's have little support from the populace.

We feel from my chair at home, with limited vision - that we should focus our resources on the infrastructure of Iraq, make us of our proven SOF units to conduct bi-lateral mission with Iraqis to seek out those G-s opposing us, Isolate their position in the society as best we can, rebuild and focus the media of the region as such, take not only a military offensive but a social one as well. Rebuild their military into a feasible civil core that can be utilized for the reconstruction efforts and also place money into their hands.. link their fate to the new regime. We can arm chair this thing to death - but it really only matters to the boys on the ground...

But I stand by my argument that this article was more fiction than fact...it was opinion. I accepted it as such, others take it as law and fact. I happen to agree with his position that we are soon a crossroads in Iraq but his basis for these reasons is skewed to say the least. Incidentally, the Guest Contributor did not state his position in the military or location if in the military. He does not even appear to be a reporter- hell that guy could be Saddam himself?

But hey the facts don't matter it suits your cause - to bad you don't shut up long enough to find out I'm might be on the same side but for different reasons.

________
Let's not let this be a habit....I am hear to make smartass comments that hold some semblance of reality/truth and look at pictures...and read rational people attempt to explain things to the irrational.

I guess now I'm trying to explain the rational to the irrational

[Argyll]

Para 1.Are we or are we not in a low intensityGuerrila war?If not what the fuc* would you call it?Extended is just a phrase used by the author,this was not anticipated,and YOU prove it was!!!Your fuc*king Predident declared the ground war over on May 1st,when did the Pentagon say,after the ground campaign,we will then turn to Guerrila warfare,if fact serves me right,the US stated it would not get drawn into streetfighting within Built Up Ares,but the Iraqis said they would draw them in and do this,and what is happening?
Para 2:You show me the proof it isn'tMilitary Intelligence?
Para 3:The comparrison to NI was that NOT every shooting takes place gets reported as it has no significance.How can you inflate whats official,btw this is coming from YOUR networks not ours!!
Para 4:I never commented on the Helo part,it was directed at S& D of which I said I didn't know your doctrine.Can you prove the Helo thing did not happen?Yes or No.?Tell me how many troops were involved in Op Anaconda?Which was a S&D Mission,upwards of 3000 I'll bet!!at least 500 of these were European SF,such as the Polish Norwegian,Aussie/NZ SAS.!!Just as a matter of course we didn't conduct S&D in NI,why mention it ,I didn't, YOU assumed it read the definition!!!!
Para 5:All in agreement!!
Para 6:I never mentioned Afghanistan,as I don't know the composition of your forces,how could I comment,I made the comment about the USE OF FORCE RATIO,as to what the UKLF used !!I agree about the Bn to 3,seems a bit of an odd statement,read the statement again,how many guerrillas have been captured so far,and how many men on the ground were involved in the Op?Were you there?So haow can you prove it false......very much open to debate!!
Para 7:Yep I agree,but you didn't read into what I said,you were too pissed off and just wanted to strangle me by then!!I said that what was happening with the "casing" is not unique!!
Para 8:Did they or didn't they tell the Iraqi army not to fight?Did they not say via all channels if you stay and fight you will die,but to leave all your weapons and vehicles in a certain formation,so that in that way we know not to destroy you?.........I think you'll find that they did....no argument!!
WRT the Iraqi SF,(who were trained by the US in the 80's)Do Allied SF not blend into their TAO's,wearing native clothing etc,gathering intel etc?
Can YOU Prove they didn't,almost 100000 men if not more belonged to these Brigades/Divisions,I have not heard or seen any report from DOD,or embeds on how the bodies were lying in pieces in their tens of thousands around Baghdad,and places where they were holed up,the DOD consatntly said "we don't do body counts!!".......no bodies no proof,to suggest that they all fuc*ed off to Syria or where ever,through Western Iraq,passed all our SOF without beeing seen is just laughable!!I wish I did know where they were,and so do you!!
Para 9:I answere on the part of Intrusion,even some troops that heave been interviewd have said,that they just wanted it to be all over and go home,most were led to believ that they'd be home as soon as the war was over!!Some guys have been deployed for 8-9 months and their families are asking why are they not home,again you cannot disprove either.Fair do's about the pregnancy thing,I think the point was a lack of the Humanitarian Aid that was supposed to be the priority after the war,even the UN has not began it's relief ,as the country is not secure to do so.
Para 10:Do I know guys involved in HUMINT,well if you're a long term Military man then you'll know some of the assets involved,and I as an 8yr served Inf.Soldier do as well,so I ain't going to comment for obvious reasons,you asked how what I thought your assets were doing,or how good it was,well.............think about that yourself,my opinion,it could be better,in lots of different ways,I've made my points clear in other posts about this,and it is MY opinion,you don't have to like it,and I don't have to like yours.

Whatever way you lookat it we are on the same side,you have your grievences ,and I have mine,but you have not proved to me or anybody else,that all these points are 100% innacurate.Gimme proof and I'll agree
I agree about the ONLY person who can make a difference here is the individual on the ground,and he must be given ALL the help and Support he needs

[Seiyuuki]

Geez..."every soldiers got the rights to bitch and complain..."

What? You think this is a vacation for them?

[ibstolidude]

prove saddam wasn't enlisted into the intergalactic star federation for the advancement of the criminally insane in the inner sactum of the forever guessing.....

prove his soldiers didn't switch on their personal cloaking devices and are really allowed the coalition foces into the center of their trap only to turn off the cloaking devices at a later time...

Prove it didn't happen? Where you there then prove it didn't happen..
I'll continue to base my opinion on knowns not on the guesses of guest commentators.

You may never have mentioned the stan but certainly the author did..as he did the other poitns I brought up - and my laugh at that article remains it is nothing but congecture.


And angry?.. no. disappointed..yes

[Argyll]

stoli are you dissapointed in him for writing the article,or at the people such as myself,and the Opinions we post?
Cmon man you know cloaking devices are not reliable in the desert!!
Hey I want the same as you,I want this bas*ard dead and buried,and a return of stability to the region as much as you do,perhaps you see it as unfinished Business!!
But I didn't mean this to come over as "matter of fact",if you read my reply to trigger before I opened up the para by para thing,you'll see my take on it.
I was mearly adding my opinions based on what I have heard and seen to the article,I never offered hard facts because neither of us have them,neither of us are there,though we may wish we were,but lets just wait and see what happens in the next month or so!
We're supposed to be on the same side here,oh and btw do you think its only the US forces that are being criticesed?Our press are calling for our troops to come home,the folk of GB don't want to see this drawn out ,and the casulaties rise,it was 60/40 for the war,but the British public in rescent polls have lost faith and no longer believe what Tony Blair tells them,they no longer see the Initial issues of going to war as valid!!

[warchild1/27scout]

the only people fighting allied forces there now are saddam loyalists who know they have no future in a free iraq and dead ender al quaeda arab types who want to keep up the chaos. a majority of the iraqis want the u.s. to STAY there until the place has been stabilized.fact. the bbc can lie all they want but thats a FACT. and about this being from a u.s. service member, i served in the military and if you looked hard enough you could find plenty of disgruntled soldiers and i dont mean that disrespectively. hey i served my country and i have the right to put my two cents in.

[cut]

a majority of the iraqis want the u.s. to STAY there until the place has been stabilized.fact. the bbc can lie all they want but thats a FACT. .

how do you know?

[Seiyuuki]

Well...whether they want us there or not...their future wouldn't be too bright if we pack up and leave

[ibstolidude]

ARG - look on the bright side atleast you HAVE a Tony Blair I have to listen to Bush give intillectual insight into the war
so your life could be worse :)

I just get vey disappointed of people that use opinion as fact - if you were simply posting the article then no sweat, but to think that people base thier beliefs on articles like this....is frightening. But atleast I will agree that neither of us have the facts and therefore I think that the war can go either way.

[gregb]

prove saddam wasn't enlisted into the intergalactic star federation for the advancement of the criminally insane in the inner sactum of the forever guessing.....

prove his soldiers didn't switch on their personal cloaking devices and are really allowed the coalition foces into the center of their trap only to turn off the cloaking devices at a later time...

Prove it didn't happen? Where you there then prove it didn't happen..
I'll continue to base my opinion on knowns not on the guesses of guest commentators.

You may never have mentioned the stan but certainly the author did..as he did the other poitns I brought up - and my laugh at that article remains it is nothing but congecture.


And angry?.. no. disappointed..yes


ibstolidude :-

Prove to me that a intergalactic star federation and cloaking devices exciste in real life , until then , ive proven to you that it " didnt happen... "


LOL........pongo

[Argyll]

Warchild,and Stoli,
I totally agree,off course there are disgruntled squaddies out there,same goes for Journo's,etc,we all have to Knuckle down and get the job done,and put whatever resources are neede to the guys in the field doing the job!
Stoli I wouldn't call having Tony Blair lucky!!! :lol:
Until ALL the facts are there on the table neither of us can be proven right or wrong,it is human nature to speculate and assume,about what's really going on in Iraq :hug:

[Trident-za]

As a point of interest, Stoli, I think that the Pentagon could not possibly keep a lid on casaulty figures. They can, however, keep the exact number of attacks on US troops quiet. We know the KIA figures, do we have any clue how many attacks against US troops have actually been perpetrated?

For example, say there are 35 attacks in 1 week (I'm obviously making the figures up) and only 6 of them cause casualties - how many of those attacks will be published on the website, or reported in the media? It's very easy to "control" the flow of information. Can't remember who said it, but there is a famous quote: "The first casaulty in any war is the truth".

As an extra point of interest, IF the Pentagon decided to do this, I'm quite sure they would do so subtly enough for people like you and me to be unaware of it. The real question is actually: if not all attacks are reported, is it because the Pentagon is keeping a lid on facts, or do the TV channels only go with the "sensational" things i.e. casaulties?

[Gordon]

Can't remember who said it, but there is a famous quote: "The first casaulty in any war is the truth".

I know it's not the same but check out the signature ... i'll get back to the rest after dinner.

[warchild1/27scout]

i heard somewhere there were like 200 convoys and two got ambushed and all we heard of was the two.

[Trident-za]

i heard somewhere there were like 200 convoys and two got ambushed and all we heard of was the two.

:lol:

Very good, Warchild... and have there STILL only been 2 ambushed convoys? :roll: