Analyzing Blackhawk Down

[millhouse]

Now, judging from the knowledge of this website's members, a discussion on the movie Blackhawk Down may seem cliche, but I hope some of the actual special forces members can add to everyone else's understanding of the events in Mogadishu as well as clarify what is movie magic and what is real.

Aside from that, I am providing some great stills from the film that I made myself. :D They make bad ass wallpapers. Enjoy!



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[millhouse]

Blackhawk Down, directed by Ridley Scott, is a film based on the book by Mark Bowden about a 1993 U.S. military special-forces battle against an oppressive Somali warlord named Mohamed Farrah Aidid. He cuts off shipments of food at the ports of East Africa in a time of mass starvation in order to build himself an army and raise himself into power. After a brief, but beautifully shot exposition, most of the film takes place in the invasion gone wrong on the streets of Mogadishu. While the film carries a powerful message about the indiscriminateness of war and questions the role of US military aid in other countries, it falls short because the true nature of the story does not allow enough of the characters to be developed as much as they should be. The characters that should carry an emotional obstacle to overcome are trained to suspend fear and do what they are told. Every soldier in the film is willing to help out without question, so the only obstacle they have is to watch out for each other, accomplish their mission, and return alive.
Although almost every character shows acts of heroism, including Ranger Staff Sergeant Matt Eversmann, played by Josh Hartnett and Delta Sergeant 1st Class Norm 'Hoot' Hooten, played by Eric Bana, it’s simply the duty and brotherhood of a soldier that compels them.
The editing in this film is excellent; done by Pietro Scalia, who won an Oscar for Best Editing. Since most of the film is a long stretch of action scenes, it was a complex editing job. There are many fast cuts edited together with slow motion, subjective and objective shots. It was an accomplishment to intersperse shots of the enemy’s struggle as well. Although the teams of Army Rangers and Delta Commandoes are difficult to track, this lack of direction adds to the chaotic experience of combat. It brings a new appreciation for the rigorous training that these soldiers go through because the audience experiences combat gone wrong, and the courage it takes to endure hardships on the battlefield
The cinematography in this film is all very attractive to the eye. The shots in the day are blue and dusty tinted, and at night there are lots of contrasting greens and reds. The real Blackhawk helicopters themselves create an exciting visual element that allows for gorgeous shots of the soldiers cruising past landscapes such as the run down city and glistening ocean. The computer generated “Little Bird” Delta commando helicopters that swoop into the city also allow great long shots of the action. In addition, handheld shots are used frequently in battle scenes to effectively to add to the chaos. Overall the shots are skillfully composed, but due to the amount of action in the film, not every shot has a deeper meaning. Lighting is used extensively in this film to portray emotion, such as when Hooten tells Eversmann to think about withdrawing his men, for example. The sinking feeling as he realizes that he will soon be taken out of the fight and replaced is conveyed with a distinct blue tint and jagged lines of light across Eversmann’s face. In the chaos of the battle, and all of the fast cuts in this film, light becomes an important visual indicator of emotion.
The theme of the film is a question that nobody knows: should they be fighting another person’s war? This film is definitely a strong reminder that the next time our country engages in conflict, things may not go as planned. The film gives off a pacifist stance on the subject of war, but also reaffirms the heroism of the soldiers who are ordered to carry out our country’s best interests. Overall this film is a big feat considering the constraints of time in proportion to the large amount of action that took place in the actual fight. It is also realistic in its depiction of the randomness of war: no one can choose who dies or not. Although character development is not as complete as a normal film should be, it is not what this film is supposed to be. Through a visual perspective, it is a successful film in its realistic depiction of the actual event. Through a narrative perspective it is successful in conveying its theme.

[Duke]

Millhouse
Two questions: Don't you think the US Govt knows your "orientation"? (And therefore cannot enter the service.) And has Neslon beaten you recently? Hawhh Hawhh!

[ssardon]

Millhouse,
How did you get the screen captures? I don't have power DVD (although my dad has Cyberlink Power DVD - but I could not get that to work) and have been trying to get some captures from BHD and Tears of the Sun.

[ssardon]

Millhouse,
Get the Special Edition DVD - Tom Matthews (TF160), Danny McNight (Ranger), Matt Eversman (Ranger), and Lee VanArsdale (Delta) give a commentary to the entire film. It is very, very interesting to hear what they have to say.

Van Arsdale, in particular, comments on Matt Rierson, Shugart, Gordon, and casaulties during war. He says that some in the media have mislabled the Oct 3rd raid "Distastrous" because we took casaulties and if that is the case then Normandy was the biggest military distaster in history.

Great 150 min. long "making of" with one whole section on how they trained the three commands.

[CovOps]

Nice captured pics.

[Gringo]

If anyones interested, there's a book written by Michael Durant which covers the operation in Somalia from his perspective. It's called "In the Company of Heroes". It could be worth a read.

[redhawk_six]

If anyones interested, there's a book written by Michael Durant which covers the operation in Somalia from his perspective. It's called "In the Company of Heroes". It could be worth a read.

I saw that at chapters yesterday, I was going to buy it, but I didn't have enough money.

BHD is fairly realistic by all accounts of the real events that I've come across. A few things were changed, I'm sure, but it is still fairly well done in my opinion. Eg: Two birds did go down. Two Delta snipers named Sughart and Gordon did go in to secure the Durant crash site, and were killed trying to fight off militia. They were awarded the Medal of Honor for their efforts.

Check out www.bhd93.com

[redhawk_six]

movie
movie
movie
it was a movie
MOOOOOOviiiiieee
movie
film
filme
cine
cinama
киноий
κινηματογράφος
wayang gambar
الفيلم
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Yes, based on an actual battle, in which many men lost their lives. Do some research, it actually happened, it's not just some story made up by a hollywood writer.

[Trigger]

Do some research
Hey n00b, when you're done removing your foot from your mouth, try reading some of stoli's other posts. He should be removing his foot from your ass about that time.

[millhouse]

I have read the book by Mark Bowden and understand how someone can write about an event without being involved directly. Sure, Durant was there, but he was in one place, and probably has his own feelings about the battle as well. I read a Q and A with some of the rangers on the PBS website, and most seem to feel betrayed by their leadership. Does Durant share this point of view? I mean a lot of the rangers I know quit the military after this event. Bowden's book is based on interviews and declassified information pieced together. It contains Durant's experiences already. Hmmm....

[Sirpad]

I have a lot of respect to the entire operation, whatever the cost was. On my side of the atlantic bad things happened, with a lot of similarities - i can only say that the BS around the movie, is still just BS.

[millhouse]

Shoveling **** or not, this film has gotten people's heads out of their asses about what the hell is going on with our special forces. Need I remind you why we have a military?

[redhawk_six]

From your language, I'm assuming you think I'm some sort of little kid whose knowledge of military history is based on hollywood movies and computer games, eh. Well, your wrong, I've spent a lot of time and money researching military history. And well I might not be an expert, I doubt you'd be the first the government turns to for expert advice on warfare either. So, please, stop making assumtions, and stop insulting everyone. This is a forum thread on the internet, there is no need for these kind of personal attacks against people simply because you don't agree with their point of veiw. I have stated my opinion on the movie, and I would like to hear yours, if you can state it without resorting to inappropriate language or insults. Now, can we knock off the sarcasm and flaming and have a nice, civil disscusion of the film.

[Fargin]

Compaired to the book, the movie sucked. But nothing new here.

[OzMan]

I've read the book, own the first edition DVD, and both are great in their own respects. As a movie, it was awesome, one of the greatest true military stories that Hollywood has to offer.

As for the book, it too was awesome. One of the greatest war documentaries ever written IN MY OPINION.

As the two overlap, many events get smudged, moved, or forgotten. As said, many of the characters get shortened, or left off, but none fogotten. I was very impressed with the amount of DoD cooperation Ridley Scott's crew received, and also with the breathtaking views of the North African coastline (the movie was filmed in Morocco).

My favorite part of the movie (a part that nearly brought me to tears in the theatre) was during the night, the Little Bird flying over the city with the loudspeaker blaring, "Mike Durant, we won't leave you behind!!" And to know they actually said it makes it even better.

Though there were some mistakes in the movie that caught my eye, it doesn't take away the fact that this was a real event and the bravery and courage of those soldiers was real. Overall I am very impressed with both pieces of media.

[millhouse]

Certainly there are noteable differences, ie the pretty boy representations of Gordon and Shugart lol and more importantly, the helicopter attack on a tribal clan meeting weeks before. I think that absence of story alone really stunk. But in my opinion (i presume you know this is a discussion, not a battle, and as an American, I am entitled to free speechin my country, and encourage it as well) the film should get more credit for bringing people's attention to the special forces. I believe that the attention the film garnered actually helped influence Rumsfeld's decision to incorporate spec forces with the rest of the branches during our war with Iraq. Before this film, the rest of the country or world for that matter did not know what the hell delta does or what lives are lost during these covert operations. Im all for honoring these men, but give the film a little more credit, it informed or at least inspired in some way many people. This I think is an accomplishment. But by all means, read the book, it is absolutely great.

[OzMan]

I agree that this film did kind of raise the nation's awareness of some of the nation's greatest warriors, but I'm pretty sure that Rumsfeld knew exactly what his Special Operations Forces were capable of by the time push came to shove. I think that the nation's awareness of groups like Delta was positive, but when you see all these pics of airsofters ( :fork: ) or all the people instinctively jumping to label someone as Delta makes me wish that this movie was never made.

Ok, the last line was a little strong, but sometimes that is the only bi-product I see of that movie and it sometimes make me sick.

[ibstolidude]

eat my ass,
with a spoon.

I stated my opinion - it was a movie....talk to those that were there if you want the facts.

You began the assumption:
"Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:36 pm Post subject:
Yes, based on an actual battle, in which many men lost their lives. Do some research, it actually happened, it's not just some story made up by a hollywood writer."

All I stated was that it was movie - not fact - but amovie made to sell tickets.

[a. enders]

I concur.It was a movie,a good movie,but just a movie.To sit there and think "Gee,this all EXACTLY like it REEEEALLY happened" is naive at best and idiotic at....no....just idiotic.
I'd suggest the book (as many,many others have already) and even take that with a grain of salt,as it is subject to writer interpretation.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Good movie, excellent book. A lot of effort made to make it(the movie) as authentic as possible. But at the end of the day it was just a movie ie, you could hear and see it, but you couldn't taste, smell and most importantly of all FEEL it. I spent some time in that place and had the oportunity to meet Brad Hallings in Brunei in 95'. But I still couldn't imagine what it was like there on 'the' day. The thing is unless you were there, all you can have is an opinion based on second or third hand info, ie the book or movie.

[Sirpad]

To be honest - i exected the movie to be much much worse than it actualy ended up. Before the movie came out, it was said to be "based on the book" - and that was enough for me. As far as i concerned - it would suck ass.
When i finaly got to see the movie, i was pretty much awe-struck. Even though it's just a movie, certain scenes were a mirror-image of real life events i have seen for myself - including (and particularly) the deaths and injuries of both sides.

As the phrase goes, "**** happens". I have seen the best planned ops get ruined by the most stupid and mind-boggling reasons, and worse-planned ops miraculosly executed to best result.
In the bottom line, this op WAS NOT A FAILURE and should not be addressed as one. Even though the results were bad, the objectives were reached (sort of....) and (minus 18) the force returned back to base (back in 96, a roadside bomb wiped out an entire israel naval commando team in lebanon, leaving only few alive (and one MIA). THAT is a failure).

So please, people: quit fiddling with horse****, give respect to the dead as well as the live men who's been there, and end this thread in a respectable manner.

[RealUltimatePower]

Yea cool movie I own it. But I prefered the TLC documentary on the battle which interviewed some of the troops who fought in the Bakara market. First hand info is always better.

[gaboki]

I agree that this film did kind of raise the nation's awareness of some of the nation's greatest warriors, but I'm pretty sure that Rumsfeld knew exactly what his Special Operations Forces were capable of by the time push came to shove. I think that the nation's awareness of groups like Delta was positive, but when you see all these pics of airsofters ( :fork: ) or all the people instinctively jumping to label someone as Delta makes me wish that this movie was never made.

Ok, the last line was a little strong, but sometimes that is the only bi-product I see of that movie and it sometimes make me sick.
must you bring up airsoft?

[OzMan]

Ok, mostly just the really extreme airsofters. The people who think they actually are SF, SEALs, Delta, etc. The small time guys who just have fun aren't really a problem, but it's the hardcore guys that make me mad.

[gaboki]

thanks for clearing that up, i mean but can you honestky say you've never pretended to be a special forces guy? (i did that all the time when i was 8 :P )

[OzMan]

Oh, I get to pretend all the time; in my head. I have to if I want to get something down on paper. Writing a book ain't easy if you can't get into it.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Anybody starting to get the feeling that millhouse might be DG55 incognito? Or do my spider senses betray me?

[Piccolo]

Speaking of old Doggonit, believe it or not, he is a regular at AR15.com forums. I don't have the link off-hand, but I found it on the Light Figher forum. He had over 500 post there, IIRC. How he has stayed there without being banned as thus far is beyond me.

[hood]

jilo, i doubt it as his ip address is on the opposite side of the country as the doggonit55 ones.

[millhouse]

I dont know what you guys are talking about... no disguise here.

[JunglistSoldier]

Ok, mostly just the really extreme airsofters. The people who think they actually are SF, SEALs, Delta, etc. The small time guys who just have fun aren't really a problem, but it's the hardcore guys that make me mad.

dude, you really need to quit looking at the world thru your ass.

Do golplayers who buy clubs and gear for several thousand dollars make you mad? Do people who invest in an expensive HiFi-system make you mad? Do people who tune their cars make you mad?

What is it about those guys that you can't accept? They are essentially a bunch of hobbyists who happen to have alot of cash and they choose to use this to further immerse themselfs in said hoddy, just like people who colloect vintage harleys, golfers, audiophiles etc.

The way I understand your reasoning, you flat out hate people who buy a car, racing tires, tuning chips, momo-wheels and recaro-seats, but your ok with people who settle for a opel? Sounds more lik jealousy then anything else.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Thanks for clearing that up Hood.

[Piccolo]

Ok, mostly just the really extreme airsofters. The people who think they actually are SF, SEALs, Delta, etc. The small time guys who just have fun aren't really a problem, but it's the hardcore guys that make me mad.

dude, you really need to quit looking at the world thru your ass.


I suggest you take your own advice there, bud. What eagle said is compleatly reasonable. Anyone who takes this **** too far into actually using unit patches and thinking they have a 'look' of a certain unit, is ****ing stupid. Period.

[OzMan]

rofl Damn that was funny. Yeah, actually there are people who tune their cars that piss me off. Especially the little riceboys who see The Fast and the Furious and actually think Honda Civics are fast and powerful. And then they get their asses kicked on the road by Camaros and Roush Mustangs, and I feel a little better.

But have you ever seen the airsofters who run around with SEAL Tridents on their BDUs, or Special Forces shields, or Ranger tabs, or SFOD-D shields? Have you ever seen them? I have, and I about hit one of 'em. Those are the ones that piss me off. The ones who really think they are SEALs, or SF, or Rangers, or Delta. And some of 'em take it even further by telling people they are who they're not. And some of them take it to places like SOCNET, or NavySEALs.com, and they get their asses handed to 'em by the Real Deals.

The way you understand my reasoning is wrong. I think you are the one that needs to get your head out of your ass.

Thanks Piccolo

[Gringo]

I dislike airsofters who put qualifications and tabs they didn't earn onto their camo. But if they were in that unit or did earn that qualification while in the military I haven't got a problem.
But I don't think u guys should be totally insulting those that wear just a US flag. I mean u should be flattered that these airsofters from Hong Kong are wearing your flag with pride, unlike those flag burning pricks!

[Piccolo]

Don't get me wrong, SE, the flag is fine IMO. I think it's abit goofy for a foreigner to wear it, but I'm not going to bash him on it. As far as patches go, you summed up my thoughts.

[gaboki]

rofl Damn that was funny. Yeah, actually there are people who tune their cars that piss me off. Especially the little riceboys who see The Fast and the Furious and actually think Honda Civics are fast and powerful. And then they get their asses kicked on the road by Camaros and Roush Mustangs, and I feel a little better.

But have you ever seen the airsofters who run around with SEAL Tridents on their BDUs, or Special Forces shields, or Ranger tabs, or SFOD-D shields? Have you ever seen them? I have, and I about hit one of 'em. Those are the ones that piss me off. The ones who really think they are SEALs, or SF, or Rangers, or Delta. And some of 'em take it even further by telling people they are who they're not. And some of them take it to places like SOCNET, or NavySEALs.com, and they get their asses handed to 'em by the Real Deals.

The way you understand my reasoning is wrong. I think you are the one that needs to get your head out of your ass.

Thanks Piccolo
first, my mustang can whiff some rice honda anyday...
now, i do play airsoft and just to let you know out of respect for the unit/units we dont wear any insignia (unless its my dads old rank/unit patchs, thats just because im to lazy to take them off, but i wouldnt call a maitnence unit a combat unit).. as a matter a fact my friend recently gave me a green beret pin, and i do have a beret but did i wear it? nah..
well hope that clears up everything...no need to flame here, as oddball would say "wheres the love, baby?"

[millhouse]

**** airsoft, what the hell happened to this thread?! :bash:

[JiJoMacLE45]

Millhouse, I take back everything I said about you possibly being DG55. You just redeemed yourself. Welcome to the club.

[millhouse]

This is not about airsoft... this is about a film and a book. Anyone have anything new to say???

Here is a passage to whet your interest in the book. The film doesn't even come close to some of the atrocities that went down in this battle. Maybe its self-absorbing pride in my country's military, but there are no other soldiers in the world that could put up such a fight, much less have the independence and competence to fight together in such harsh conditions. Kudos to the US special forces, you guys rock!

"Every Ranger at the intersection blasted her. Howe kept fire on her from up the hill. First she stumbled, but kept on going. Then, as more rounds hit her, she fell and RPGs spilled out of her basket onto the street. The shooting stopped. She had been hit by many rounds and lay in a heap in the dirt for a long moment., breathing heavily. Then the woman pulled herself up on all fours, grabbed an RPG round and crawled. This time the Ranger volley literally tore her apart. A fat 203 round blew off one of her legs. She fell in a bloody lump for a few moments, then moved again. Another massive burst of rounds rained on her and her body came further apart. It was apalling, yet some of the Rangers laughed. To Nelson, the woman no longer even looked like a human being; she transformed into a monstrous bleeding hulk like something out of a horror movie."
Blackhawk Down: page 325/405.

[gregb]

Analyzise this _ll_

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Thats not an atrocity sunshine, by carrying RPG rounds that woman made herself a combatant and as such under the Laws of Armed Conflict that made her a target. Read the geneva Conventions.

And yeah you are self absorbed, the forces involved in the battle fought well, but they weren't all American nor were they all special forces. And yes there are other soldiers who could put up as good a fight, and perform competantly and independently as the situation dictates.
How old are you millhouse?, you sound like a kid in a playground!.

[JiJoMacLE45]

O-K, I claim temporary insanity and rescind my last, however the ''f*** airsoft'' comment was dead on.

[millhouse]

Thats not an atrocity sunshine, by carrying RPG rounds that woman made herself a combatant and as such under the Laws of Armed Conflict that made her a target. Read the geneva Conventions.

And yeah you are self absorbed, the forces involved in the battle fought well, but they weren't all American nor were they all special forces. And yes there are other soldiers who could put up as good a fight, and perform competantly and independently as the situation dictates.
How old are you millhouse?, you sound like a kid in a playground!.

I am aware of the rules of engagement.... but killing women to me is an atrocity. And I think even by looking at the battle from a kill ratio and the ground that was successfully defended, the American special forces (four ranger chalks, delta/seal team, and their reinforcements) fought more competently and more independently than their Marine, Army or even Somali counterparts did. Over one thousand KIA vs. over twenty. A whole city vs. 5 small groups and limited air support. There is no other force that each member by numbers can handle the work of 500-1000 normal soldiers. That power simply does not exist anywhere else, I'm sorry.

[Trigger]

JiJo's been trying that 'night shift/no coffee' thing again :D

...looks like gregb is stepping up to fill the woodland/D55 vacancy :|

[millhouse]

Anyone have any more scans from the film or actual photos from the battle or events surrounding it??

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

I'll start at the end and work forwards millhouse, maybe that will work. You should be sorry, there is no military force in the world were each individual member has the skill sets and 'power' of 500-1000 'normal' soldiers.
It was not a whole city versus five small groups, but they were certainly out numbered.
Limited air support?, well, compared to no air support for the clans i'd say Task Force Ranger had the advantage there. Four AH-6 gun birds, each of which conducted aproximately seventy odd gun runs, according to air mission commander Col Tom Mathews, and all four expended fourtyeight thousand rounds of link during the battle. Plus the doorguns on the blackhawks themselves. Theres your high kill ratio.
If your going to get so wrapped up in the movie I suggest you buy the collecters edition DVD and watch it with the veterans commentary on, Matt Eversman, Danny Mcknight, Tom Mathews and Lee van Arsdale talk about their experiences on the ground during the battle with the movie playing in the background. Take note millhouse of what they say about 10th mountain and the other units who fought with them that day and night. Listen as Mcknight and Eversman talk about how they probably wouldn't have survived the convoy or the night at the super 61 crash site if it wasn't for the little bird gun runs.
Killing women is an atrocity to you because you don't know any better. Professional soldiers don't go around killing ANYONE for the sake of it. But, on a battlefield a threat is a threat, whether its a grown man, a young boy or a woman. If their actively aiding and abetting the enemy in such a way that is causing you and yours casualties then they are a threat and you ALWAYS honour the threat.
The problem is you don't know what you talking about, I suggest you get in contact with a Task Force Ranger vet and use the 'A' word, then see what happens.

[redhawk_six]

Anyone have any more scans from the film or actual photos from the battle or events surrounding it??

There are many here:

http://www.bhd93.com

[10thvet]

Millhouse:

If you think that killing a woman/child who is a legal combatant is an atrocity than I suggest you do not join the military(if you are thinking that)... Somaila aside there are many MANY nations who have women serve in thier armed forces and all you would do is get soldiers killed...

a little bit about my self.. I am a 19 year vetern of the US Army.. I am an Infantry PSG(platoon SGT) I have been in Somilia, Haiti, Kosovo, Bosnia and now currenty serving out my last months(before retiring) in AC/RC in Florida.. I am a US army Jumpmaster(Novice rating), Ranger qualified(9-91). I have the CIB, EIB, Air assult qualified and many other school under my belt. I was a member of the 10th MTN reliefe force that eventually made it's way to TFR.. I am also a registered member of the above mentioned website..

Now a little bit more on what an atrocity is not... Killing women and children who are legal combatatnts and therefore just as deadly as thier dad's or uncle or who ever trained them...As a squad leader in africa I had to make a lot of tough calls and that is one of the toughest ones a leader/soldier will ever make..but a 10 year old with an RPG will kill you just as dead as a woman or a man... make the call and kill or dont and die..The majoirty of the problem lays with everyone looking at this thru American eyes.. you think 10 year olds(in America), play with toys, baseball, soccer maybe football..In Africa 10 years old are taught to kill either to protect their family/clan or to help the famliy/clan make a gain in whatever they are trying to gain...It wasnt to long ago(about 100 years) that even by American standards a teenager of 14-15 was considered a man, just look at the old west ... Women may be second class citizens in africa or other nations but carrying arms and ammo does make them a legal combatant and the above mentioned quote from BHD was not an atrocity. It was a soldier killing a legal combatant.

Kids and women kill... that's a fact. If you consider that an atrocity than became a preist and help some of those kids that need it... Other than than if you have not walked in my shoes shut the hell up what you would consnsider an atrocity


I await on your reply.

[millhouse]

Thanks for adding the same comment as mentioned above. You really didn't add anything to the argument. I understand the legal side of this matter, which I stated above. If you, as a soldier still have no misgivings about killing women and children, even though it may be necessary to do so, then you should not have joined the military. I'm sorry, but no one in their right mind would kill women and children and not be affected by it, if not immediately, then in the long run. Hell ya its an atrocity, and I take for granted war is indiscriminant - anyone can die, and there is nothing we can do to choose who dies and who doesn't. Being a soldier does not necessarily mean knowing everything... soldiers such as yourself are trained to carry out specific missions, not have a broad understanding of public opinion and international relations. If you, as a soldier, were to study what the public thought of you and the service you do for your country, you would quit. Just because you are a soldier doesn't mean you know what is an atrocity. Its called mental conditioning...

[10thvet]

when you grow up(and I am not talking age wise) you will find out that there are ppl(men, women and children) who are out to do you harm... and there are ppl like me(and others) that will and have stepped in between them and you and killed that person(or put that person in jail when it comes to law enforcment)...Just because you wouldnt kill "AN ARMED WOMAN OR CHILD" does not mean that woman and child doesnt need to be killed...and to tell you the truth I sleep pretty good and night...
You want to know what an atrocity is.. an atrocity is that child or woman being there fully knowing what she/they were doing would possible get them killed and then me explaining myself and my action of my squad 10 years after the fact to some faceless lump on a computer.


and as far as the rest of the comment..
"Dogs and soldiers stay off the grass" (is that what your saying)
I dont really give a flying f*** what the rest of the nation think of me or my brother in arms...I do what I do because I love this nation, it doesnt always have to love me back.


I have told you what I do for a living, why dont you tell the group what you do for a living, I may have missed it one of your ealier post...
Once again untill you have come face to face with an armed women or child trying to kill you, shut your cake hole.

[ibstolidude]

I actually think it is a tragedy when people sit at home and question the actions of the shooter on the ground...
BUT I am an opinionated ass who already posted his feelings on this MOVIE MOVIE movie it was a movie...

[Trident-za]

Good word, Stoli : tragedy.

This is the word which better describes the necessity to shoot women and/or children who pose a threat. It is a tragedy that this was necessary, not an atrocity.

10thvet is right - in Africa, women and children are often combatants (try get hold of a book called "Child Soldier" written by a female named "China"). You literally have NO choice in the matter. You die, or they do. It sucks (and I'm damn sure it affects the guys who have had to do it), but it not an atrocity.

[ibstolidude]

I'm just not sure what makes it a tragedy to kill women and kids but not men...i guess the emeded western judio-christian ethics (we say john wayne ethics) that bombard us in our youth or never shoot a man in the back and don't hurt women and kids. being jaded the reality of the third world you quickly realize that kind of thinking can get you killed.
If a target persents itself you do your job and you move on.
All of it is tragic. If it was not, than anyone could do it.

[millhouse]

Why don't soldiers realize that they are fighting for their country, which happens to include "assholes" like me, and my freedom of speech. Im sick and tired of soldiers ranting about their country when they dont even know what it means. What fighting means to a few people here is just a pair of Oakley's, a gun, and a license to kill. Learn what you are really fighting for, and maybe a few people in this forum will open their minds a bit, instead of using low brow insults and letting their boot camp mentality take control of their minds.

[Trident-za]

I'm just not sure what makes it a tragedy to kill women and kids but not men...i guess the emeded western judio-christian ethics (we say john wayne ethics) that bombard us in our youth or never shoot a man in the back and don't hurt women and kids. being jaded the reality of the third world you quickly realize that kind of thinking can get you killed.
If a target persents itself you do your job and you move on.
All of it is tragic. If it was not, than anyone could do it.

This is more than likely true - western people are raised to believe violence against women and children is wrong (and it is). Would you ever pick a fight with a woman in bar? Thats the belief system we inherit.

Again, you are right - any death in a combat is actually tragic. I'm not saying its unneccesary, or avoidable......

[Trigger]

millhouse you are about the most ignorant F**K I've seen post on these forums. You have no idea what anything means to anyone here and you continue to demonstrate your stupidity by not even acknowledging the fact that people who were ACTUALLY THERE are trying to set you straight. SHUT THE F**K UP NOW and go somewhere else to spew your bullsh*t. I think Saint has probably found a home by now, why don't you go find him and have a 'hate America' meeting. :bash:

[JiJoMacLE45]

Sick 'em boys! Millhouse, you are halfway in the grave and venturing down a road you surely do not want to travel.

10thvet, welcome. It's good to see another BTDT step aboard.

[Piccolo]

Very good post, Tane. There are a few books in that list I need to read myself. Killing pablo sounds like a good one, as well as Durants book.

In addition to these, I suggest 'Five years to Freedom', by James 'Nick' Rowe. An awe inspiring man who endured hardship in harsh VC prison camps for 5 years, and strived foward when he finally excaped. He is the man who set up the US Army SERE program, infact.

[Piccolo]

Agreed. I think Rogue Warrior/ Marincko's book's would be a good example. I did read RW, and I respect the man as a professional in setting up ST6,etc, but there is way too much controversey and he/she said BS that comes with it.

Another recomended read, IMHO, would be Shadow Warriors. It's written by Tom Clancy (Non-Fiction), and General (.RET) Carl Stiner. Quite a good book.

[a. enders]

Would you ever pick a fight with a woman in bar?


Nah...But ifn she started it,I'd finish it. :roll:

[millhouse]

Thanks for some recently useful posts. I actually have gotten a lot of useful information between the bantering believe it or not. :P

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Good to see you have at least one redeeming quality then.

[millhouse]

Good to see you have at least one redeeming quality then.

Ngati, youre a horse's ass. p-)

[dugdug]

Well, the two Delta Snipers (Randy and Gordy) is my fav. I love their painted CAR-15 and M21 very much.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Right back at ya babe! :fork:

[10thvet]

Millhouse:
It's unforunate that you say I do not know what I am fighting for. You do not understand what drives me or many of my brother in arms...
I do not claim to be a great man so maybe someone as great as your self(who has everything figured out) can "splain it to me". Just what am I fighting for, what have I (and many others) fought for for over 227 years, just what have many men and women laid down thier lives for, Please explain it to this simple grunt, this very simple man who is willing to lay down his life so others can say"I dont know what I am fighting for"...

Oh by the way can you answer a few questions for me just so I can get a better perspective on where you are coming from.
What is your proffesion?
Ever been robbed?
Ever had to kill someone trying to kill you or your friends?


JiJoMacLE45:
Thanks for the welcome

Ever served a day to give back to this great nation? (armed services, law enforcment, volunteer)

[ibstolidude]

Hey, hey...there are other ways to serve!
..like pissing and moaning about soldiers on websites.

Millhouse, just keep digging it deeper and deeper.

[PballTherapist]

Sorry if i'm digging up an old thread guys, but just gotta have my say... i'm a little redundant so don't get all mad

Millhouse, good job on the pics.
But i have to disagree with you... alot. You seriously are in no position to judge a soldier's acts of survival and instincts. Sorry if this is not true, but from everything you said, i imagine you're one of those pasty faced geeks who thinks being the "politcally correct" guy makes you look like a good person; maybe special. (Much like the hippies who believed the 2nd Gulf War is just for oil).
Look at it this way: a woman/child has a gun pointed at your comrade. There is no negotiating. What would you do? If you chose to let the woman shoot your friend, you probably don't have many good friends.
In the case of BHD, the woman they shot obviously was carrying RPGs which most likely were addressed to the American soldiers (not literally). This situation is much like my analogy above.
Like many people said, it is tragic/sad, but what needs to be done has to be done.


10thvet,
You really do not need to explain yourself. Many of us (maybe all of us?) agree with you. Many actions of a soldier can go without explanation, you don't need to justify your actions to some guy who doesn't know what he's talkin about.

[SABER 2-3]

Thanks for adding the same comment as mentioned above. You really didn't add anything to the argument. I understand the legal side of this matter, which I stated above. If you, as a soldier still have no misgivings about killing women and children, even though it may be necessary to do so, then you should not have joined the military. I'm sorry, but no one in their right mind would kill women and children and not be affected by it, if not immediately, then in the long run. Hell ya its an atrocity, and I take for granted war is indiscriminant - anyone can die, and there is nothing we can do to choose who dies and who doesn't. Being a soldier does not necessarily mean knowing everything... soldiers such as yourself are trained to carry out specific missions, not have a broad understanding of public opinion and international relations. If you, as a soldier, were to study what the public thought of you and the service you do for your country, you would quit. Just because you are a soldier doesn't mean you know what is an atrocity. Its called mental conditioning...

UNDERSTAND THIS...you need to cut your ****-skinners off due to the fact that they are obviously possessed by Jane Fonda. Anyone who would type that killing women and children makes you guilty of an atrocity must have never had the reality check of kill or be killed . "Soldiers such as your self..." How the f**k would you know anything about any of us who serve; and more over how would you know what level of understanding we have concerning the public. If you truly understood you would walk away on the double. You will learn one day that public opinion and international relations are code-words for don't rock the boat. The man who sends others to enforce proper international relations because the publics opinion said to do so; has zero qualification to question the person he enlists to get it done. The smell of blood and cordite, the begging and crying they go away because it has been done for the right reasons. I feel for you, that you have not been mentally conditioned to the fact that life is not a movie.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Nice sabre, very eloquent.

[kaninen]

I jsut want to post a comment about airsoft...

Im from sweden, and i have 3color BDU when i play airsoft with 82th airborne patches and american flags.. why? because they look really good. I dont wear them cuz i think Im a real soldier. Do you guys really think that just because I wear US flags and unit patches i want to disgrace the unit or your country? I give my respect to US and to the airborne regiments.

And after Im finished with my military service in Sweden Im thinking of joining up in the US army, Ive heard the Ranger school is one hell of a challenge.

[Seraphim]

I jsut want to post a comment about airsoft...

Im from sweden, and i have 3color BDU when i play airsoft with 82th airborne patches and american flags.. why? because they look really good. I dont wear them cuz i think Im a real soldier. Do you guys really think that just because I wear US flags and unit patches i want to disgrace the unit or your country? I give my respect to US and to the airborne regiments.

And after Im finished with my military service in Sweden Im thinking of joining up in the US army, Ive heard the Ranger school is one hell of a challenge.

If your thinking of joining the US Army, you better start applying for your green card.

[kaninen]

Yes Im going to apply for greencard... what did you think?

[SABER 2-3]

Don't worry about offending any Paratroopers by the wearing of an Airborne tab because none including myself earned the Airborne tab. Airborne tabs are like Mountain tabs they are just part of the patch when the unit is designated a Jump status unit. Many, many leg soldiers wear the Airborne tab and the maroon beret in the 82nd, 173rd and 18thAbn Corps. Do worry about offending Ranger, SF and Presidents 100 tab winners because those tabs are only awarded upon graduation or appointment. Airborne soldiers only care if you are wearing the Parachutist badge (jump wings). The only Unit patch I would advise you not wear is a Ranger scroll (any scroll), those of us that have or do wear them had to complete the Ranger Indoctrination Program (RIP) prior to authorized wear.

[ibstolidude]

sooo, I'm okay with my overseas training ribbon with Valor device?

[SABER 2-3]

Why yes, you are authorized that ribbon provided you wear it on your BDUs along with gold in color, shoulder boards w/ trim (standard Central American Dictator/GEN. type). Unless that is a second award in which case you will change your shoulder boards to the standard Middle Eastern Dictator/Profit of Allah/COL. style.

[andrew45c]

british commandos and SAS wud have got that mission rapped up in 30 mins no prob. No offence to american forces threre great u just dont have the vast experience of street fighting that brit forces have.(N. Ireland) the problem with the american army in modern warfare is that un less there r full scale wars because the U.S army is so big only a small percentage see action. Whereas in the brit army we r spread thin and almost all solidiers in the army take part in a major op before 5 yrs service.

Again nothing against U.S forces ur kit is great and training good.

[Seraphim]

british commandos and SAS wud have got that mission rapped up in 30 mins no prob. No offence to american forces threre great u just dont have the vast experience of street fighting that brit forces have.(N. Ireland) the problem with the american army in modern warfare is that un less there r full scale wars because the U.S army is so big only a small percentage see action. Whereas in the brit army we r spread thin and almost all solidiers in the army take part in a major op before 5 yrs service.

Again nothing against U.S forces ur kit is great and training good.

What!? How can you say that? Its absurd to make such statements like that. They did a great job in the street fighting btw. If clinton gave them what they needed the mission would have ended up much better.

[10thvet]

Andrew..
first I take no offence. But what we are talking here is about 5,000 ppl(out of roughly 3 million) armed to the teeth and a slug out street fight against roughly 100(Task Force Ranger "TFR")... When was the last time the IRA had that many pin down the Brits and just throw everything from RPG's to snipers and a whole lot of women and children(with and without guns )...It makes for a bad day no matter how you slice it.

I didnt reply to agrue just putting it in perspective.

[Trigger]

sooo, I'm okay with my overseas training ribbon with Valor device?
...as long as you wear it with a feather boa and high heels. rofl

[ibstolidude]

Anyone who who wants to wear an AA patch - have at it
better you than me. :D

[SABER 2-3]

Anyone who who wants to wear an AA patch - have at it
better you than me. :D


ROGER THAT. I wouldn't want people thinking I quit drinking and joined some 12 step program for soldiers. The ABN chapter of Alcoholics Aynonomous is no in service. Report to Ft. Bragg for your AA insignia.

[andrew45c]

fair point 10vet but i do not mean that they were surrounded by well armed somali militia the only reason the rangers failed because of there backup not being ready or prepared what i simply mean is that British forces no how to plan there missions in urban areas more effectively due to there experience in N. Ireland and altough im aware the IRA forces have never attacked in the same sort of force as the somalis the brits know how to avoid rattiling up the whole area.

again fair point 10vet u just misunderstood my point.

[andrew45c]

Ok Tane Angle u make a good point theres no point trying to say what the problems were really its just a shame it all went to ****.

[Beowulf]

I saw this in a port-o-potty (written by a 101 soldier right before they were replaced by 82nd): AA= After AAFES

I hadn't heard that one before and thought it was pretty funny b/c there was a PX set up (only a 2 hour wait for pringles sweeeeet).
All Best
beowulf

[JTFazz]

I am so sorry I read even 10 percent of this thread. I think I would have been more productive shining the 12 oak leaf clusters on my Army Service Ribbon.

And someone needs to tell Mark Bowden that he apparently talked to no one actually involved in the operation that gave rise to his series in the Philadelphia Inquirer which was later made into a book and subsequently into a movie.

And tell the families of Shugart, Gordon, Wolcott, Briley, Cleveland, Field, Frank, Busch, Houston, Joyce, Cavaco, Smith, Pilla, Kowalewski, Ruiz, Fillmore and the two Martins that their pain, suffering and grief was over a stupid movie.

Now, back to polishing.

[a. enders]

stoli:where'd the pic come from?I found a crazy funny ass site with that on it a long time ago and can't find it anymore.

[millhouse]

I am so sorry I read even 10 percent of this thread. I think I would have been more productive shining the 12 oak leaf clusters on my Army Service Ribbon.

And someone needs to tell Mark Bowden that he apparently talked to no one actually involved in the operation that gave rise to his series in the Philadelphia Inquirer which was later made into a book and subsequently into a movie.

And tell the families of Shugart, Gordon, Wolcott, Briley, Cleveland, Field, Frank, Busch, Houston, Joyce, Cavaco, Smith, Pilla, Kowalewski, Ruiz, Fillmore and the two Martins that their pain, suffering and grief was over a stupid movie.

Now, back to polishing.


Sorry you didnt get the full intent of the post. I am trying to clear up the matter, trying to get people to add some more information on how they feel about the film. I agree that it does not even remotely capture the events that took place, but I do give it credit for sparking interest in people over the matter. If you do not see good in shining light on this event, and helping people to learn from it, then you really don't have anything new to offer to this thread. I don't take anything for granted because it is all interpretive, so one must make the best judgement possible based on the facts. I have much respect for the men who fought then and who fight now, but try to understand that people actually ARE interested in the event and want to try to understand things. This thread was meant to get people to share their knowledge, not to bash a movie or a book. If you think Bowden is full of ****, why so? What REALLY happened huh?

[10thvet]

millhouse :bash:

I find it very hard to belive that you want to know anything about what truthfully happened in Somalia. I think that you are trolling for **** to thow back into soldiers faces...

And your signature is a f*** joke... Maybe you can get the other wannabees to belive that you are using that weapon but any one who would use that weapon would not have "grunts are fodder" tag line in thier signature..f*** idiot

I posted this under your other thread also just so you wouldnt miss it.

[dugdug]

Hey guys, I found a "bug" in the film.
The scene is after the crash of super 6-1, the delta inside super 6-1 tried to keep the Somalia militia from the bird. The first shot, the delta's goggles was on his kelmet, but for the rest of the film, the goggles wasn't on his helmet!

[ibstolidude]

and now you get a cookie!!

[Seraphim]

I dont think we need to discuss continutitys in the film here. I can post down about 6 that I can think of right now, but Im not going to.

[Phantom]

i think that we need to remember that with a movie people take creative licence. A lot of characters were composit, for instance, there was no Grimes, Sgt (now MSgt Eversman) Eversman was actually in the convoy for the majority of the battle, also, the person played by eric bana was actually named Hoot Gibson, who, according to the people in the movies cast and crew, say he's a composite character. although there was a person called Norm Hooten there. Also, for those that have read the book and know that Sizemore's arm wasn't the result of a ping pong accident may have thought the movie got it wrong. In the new special addition, you can see a deleted scene where he gets his arm checked and the medic doesn't quite believe him. Also, after hearing people like Tom Matthews, Matt Eversman, Lee Van Armsdale and Danny McKnight all say that the movie is extremely accurate considering the creative licence that had to be take to deal with the amount of time and the 8 (instead of 18-19) choppers that were there, it's extremely accurate.

[Phantom]

british commandos and SAS wud have got that mission rapped up in 30 mins no prob. No offence to american forces threre great u just dont have the vast experience of street fighting that brit forces have.(N. Ireland) the problem with the american army in modern warfare is that un less there r full scale wars because the U.S army is so big only a small percentage see action. Whereas in the brit army we r spread thin and almost all solidiers in the army take part in a major op before 5 yrs service.

Again nothing against U.S forces ur kit is great and training good.

What!? How can you say that? Its absurd to make such statements like that. They did a great job in the street fighting btw. If clinton gave them what they needed the mission would have ended up much better.

i'll add that well, andrew, your full of ****. when your outnumbered by a city, it doesn't matter who you are. delta are a very different unit to the SAS, they're a special recovery unit, that's their main arena. they're also the best shooters in the world, and i believe them, even though i think that the SASR are the best overal SAF. and to UCT_Sinasta, Clinton had no knowledge of the mission until it was too late, so make sure you're right before you go accusing people

[SABER 2-3]

I am so sorry I read even 10 percent of this thread. I think I would have been more productive shining the 12 oak leaf clusters on my Army Service Ribbon.

And someone needs to tell Mark Bowden that he apparently talked to no one actually involved in the operation that gave rise to his series in the Philadelphia Inquirer which was later made into a book and subsequently into a movie.

And tell the families of Shugart, Gordon, Wolcott, Briley, Cleveland, Field, Frank, Busch, Houston, Joyce, Cavaco, Smith, Pilla, Kowalewski, Ruiz, Fillmore and the two Martins that their pain, suffering and grief was over a stupid movie.

Now, back to polishing.

I passed along your feelings to MSG SHUGHART's family (starting w/ my wife) they all say...STRONG MESSAGE FOLLOWS///CLEAR THE NET///OUT

[Seraphim]

Ok sorry :oops:
Now that you mentioned it, I remember now that he didnt know about the mission until the morning like everyone else.

So who was it that denied their requests for armor and better air support?

[Phantom]

according to the movie, it was too high profile, which is believeable, but it doesn't mean i agree with it

[JTFazz]

I am so sorry I read even 10 percent of this thread. I think I would have been more productive shining the 12 oak leaf clusters on my Army Service Ribbon.

And someone needs to tell Mark Bowden that he apparently talked to no one actually involved in the operation that gave rise to his series in the Philadelphia Inquirer which was later made into a book and subsequently into a movie.

And tell the families of Shugart, Gordon, Wolcott, Briley, Cleveland, Field, Frank, Busch, Houston, Joyce, Cavaco, Smith, Pilla, Kowalewski, Ruiz, Fillmore and the two Martins that their pain, suffering and grief was over a stupid movie.

Now, back to polishing.


Sorry you didnt get the full intent of the post. I am trying to clear up the matter, trying to get people to add some more information on how they feel about the film. I agree that it does not even remotely capture the events that took place, but I do give it credit for sparking interest in people over the matter. If you do not see good in shining light on this event, and helping people to learn from it, then you really don't have anything new to offer to this thread. I don't take anything for granted because it is all interpretive, so one must make the best judgement possible based on the facts. I have much respect for the men who fought then and who fight now, but try to understand that people actually ARE interested in the event and want to try to understand things. This thread was meant to get people to share their knowledge, not to bash a movie or a book. If you think Bowden is full of ****, why so? What REALLY happened huh?

Please look up the literary device known as sarcasm. I think you missed MY point entirely. But I should not waste my time or anyone else's explaining what should be obvious to anyone not looking to pick a fight.

I am sorry you missed my point, because I certainly saw yours and for the most part thought your critics were way off base. You shouldn't get so caught up in defending yourself that you are defensive when someone more or less disagrees with your detractors, but does it in a just-slightly-less-than-obvious-to a-blind-man way.

I did think the movie was well done insofar as its portrayal within the parameters of a medium that doesn't necessarily lend itself well to complete and total authenticity.

I do think Mark Bowden did a fine job in his Philadelphia Inquirer piece that ultimately was reconfigured as a book and adapted for the screen.

I guess my tongue in cheek humor about the 12 oak leaf clusters on my Army Service Ribbon was lost on many as well. For the great unwashed, the ASR is the ribbon you get for completing basic training and advanced individual training and is perhaps the lowest in prestige of all Army awards, because everyone that doesn't wash out gets one... and it is never re-awarded as was the humorous reference to oak leaf clusters.

Now, does that make more sense?

**note to self, stay away from posting on this forum with any regularity as even those you agree with jump in your $^@+**

[Phantom]

it's not that people want to jump down your throat, it's just hard to see sarcasm in letters. maybe you should just stick to what u actually thnk, and then you don't have to constantly try to clear it up