Islam: What the West Needs to Know

[CantGetRight]

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sm-GBMUqRU8


heres a preview to the video, im sure the whole thing is on youtube somewhere

has anyone else seen this? i just finished watching it with my wife and I'm convinced its a must-see. the video which puts into perspective the current war, and the near constant war between Islam and Christianity; East and West for the past two thousand years, there have been lulls in this war and we were all born into one. to ignore the growing threat in our faces, and the history of violence and expansion behind this threat, is a terrible mistake to make

in a age of political correctness, are we blind to the facts, islam is not a religion of peace, it is a religion of expansion, the extinction of other cultures and other religions, and its threatening us now


mods if this is considered flamebait please delete, i think most people here on on the same train of thought though

[JJC]

I've met Walid Shoebat in 2004, and I don't know why he is still alive. He was a former Palestinian terrorist who had a change of heart.

A good film to watch on this topic is "Obsession" an eye opener that's for sure.

[Ordie]

the near constant war between Islam and Christianity; East and West for the past two thousand years

That is not true.

Islam did not exist until 632 A.D.

There were long periods in history where Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in relative tranquility.

In fact, it was safer to be a Jew in the Ottoman Empire than in Europe.

[goat89]

This will be a good show for Christians actually. I am not one, (i am a Buddhist.), there are some people who just think Islam is all about martyrs and evrything.

[Mu-Meson]

In fact, it was safer to be a Jew in the Ottoman Empire than in Europe.

Yeah, so hows that going recently? Its quite amusing when people trot out all of Islam's 'advances' and glory days. None of them happened in the last 500 years, and some of which are falsely attributed.
I think a little less reminiscing about stuff that happened over 1000 years ago, and a little more thinking about why 1500000000 muslims have made less advances in last 100 years than 15000000 Jews have in the last 10 is in order. Or maybe not since that always seems to lead to conspiracy thinking.

[Warlord]

Quixotic Media. I don't know if it's an irony.

What can you do really?

[Ordie]

Yeah, so hows that going recently? Its quite amusing when people trot out all of Islam's 'advances' and glory days. None of them happened in the last 500 years.

A lot had to do with the Ottomans conquest of Constaninople in 1453 (It fell on a Tuesday, that is why Tuesday is a bad omen day in Greece). This secured the Ottomans and the Venetians duopoly in the spice trade.

And it triggered the European powers to seek alternative routes. The Portugese figured a way around Cape of Good Hope directly to India and the Spice Islands. The Spanish went the other way and found the America's.

Soon the Dutch, French and the English followed by-passing the Ottomans.

[Bitogno]

Yeah, so hows that going recently? Its quite amusing when people trot out all of Islam's 'advances' and glory days. None of them happened in the last 500 years, and some of which are falsely attributed.
Which ones ?


I think a little less reminiscing about stuff that happened over 1000 years ago, and a little more thinking about why 1500000000 muslims have made less advances in last 100 years than 15000000 Jews have in the last 10 is in order. Or maybe not since that always seems to lead to conspiracy thinking.
And during the 300 or 400 last years we invaded their countries.

[pgm]

Which ones ?Well, just to say one, the so-called "arabic" numerals, which in fact came from India.


And during the 300 or 400 last years we invaded their countries.
Would you please explain exactly when "we" (Westerners? Us? Japanese? Blue eyed white people? Martians?) invaded "their" (whose?) countries? If you refer to arabic peoples, it's quite hard to say that any "invasion" ever occurred in the last 400 years: I can only think about Napoleon's invasion of Egypt in 1798 and once again the French in Algeria till the 50s. But as far as the Arabic Peninsula, and even for non-arabic muslims as Persians, I can't remember any large scale invasion from outside. Or are you talking about the "invasion" by Israel?
So, we (Western non-muslims) can say that the grim world of muslims is largely a creation of their (the muslims) own.

[9mmRifle]

Really the are still going on about the damn Crusades ? The Crusades have been over for 800 years, its a very long time ago when the Euros were in the dark ages wanting to burn non believers or spread Christianity by the sword. Muslims have freedom of religion in Europe for a very long time and they have full rights in the United States, in the US they are treated as citizens given full rights and there are no 'Crusades' anymore and I think these radical Muslims should STFU about the Crusades, its ridiculous

[shire19]

In the eyes of the average westerner there is an very thin line between Islam and Radical Islam, and this is completely understandable.

But once this line breaks, ignorance coupled with hatred will make the future alot worse for all of us.

[Bitogno]

Would you please explain exactly when "we" (Westerners? Us? Japanese? Blue eyed white people? Martians?) invaded "their" (whose?) countries? If you refer to arabic peoples, it's quite hard to say that any "invasion" ever occurred in the last 400 years: I can only think about Napoleon's invasion of Egypt in 1798 and once again the French in Algeria till the 50s. But as far as the Arabic Peninsula, and even for non-arabic muslims as Persians, I can't remember any large scale invasion from outside. Or are you talking about the "invasion" by Israel?
So, we (Western non-muslims) can say that the grim world of muslims is largely a creation of their (the muslims) own.
1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641
1798 : Napoleon in Egypt.
1804-1813 : War between Russia and Iran ( Russia trying invade a part of Iran but is defeated )
1830 : France in Algeria.
1839 : U.K. occupies Aden ( Yemen )
1839 : U.K. Invades Kabul an Khandhar ( Afghanistan ).
1848 : Spain invades Jaafarines Islands ( Maroco )
1856 U.K. occupy Perim ( Yemen )
1859-1860 : Spain starts Tetouan war against Maroco.
1881 : France imposes protectorate to Tunisa
1882 : U.K. in Egypt
1890 : Italia in Erythrea
1904 : Tangier's coup by Germany to insure influence of Germany in Maroco.
1912 : Italy gets Lybia.
1912 : France in Maroco
1920 : France in Syria and Lebanon
1920 : England in Iraq and Palestine
1935 : Italy invades Ethiopia.
1941 : USSR + U.K. invade Iran
1953 : U.S. + U.K. replace Iranian prime minister Mossadegh ( operation Ajax ).
....

Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).

[Basillicus]

in a age of political correctness, are we blind to the facts, islam is not a religion of peace, it is a religion of expansion, the extinction of other cultures and other religions, and its threatening us now

Funny, couldn't the muslims say the same thing about christianity? Except that to them the threat is much bigger since much of the economy, military, technology etc. is in the hands of christians and every "muslim country" is poor and underdevelopped.

[kilroy1911]

1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641
1798 : Napoleon in Egypt.
1804-1813 : War between Russia and Iran ( Russia trying invade a part of Iran but is defeated )
1830 : France in Algeria.
1839 : U.K. occupies Aden ( Yemen )
1839 : U.K. Invades Kabul an Khandhar ( Afghanistan ).
1848 : Spain invades Jaafarines Islands ( Maroco )
1856 U.K. occupy Perim ( Yemen )
1859-1860 : Spain starts Tetouan war against Maroco.
1881 : France imposes protectorate to Tunisa
1882 : U.K. in Egypt
1890 : Italia in Erythrea
1904 : Tangier's coup by Germany to insure influence of Germany in Maroco.
1912 : Italy gets Lybia.
1912 : France in Maroco
1920 : France in Syria and Lebanon
1920 : England in Iraq and Palestine
1935 : Italy invades Ethiopia.
1941 : USSR + U.K. invade Iran
1953 : U.S. + U.K. replace Iranian prime minister Mossadegh ( operation Ajax ).
....

Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).

is there anyone good in history who can create such a list of muslim incursions into christian/and other religions (hindu?buddhists?) world?

I can start with Otoman/turkish invasions to Europe which last for centuries and claim whole Balkan and large parts of central Europe... i thing the turks were even besieging Vienna...

[Bitogno]

Well, just to say one, the so-called "arabic" numerals, which in fact came from India.

In fact only westerns call them "arabic" numerals, muslims call them Hindu numerals.

[CantGetRight]

1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641
1798 : Napoleon in Egypt.
1804-1813 : War between Russia and Iran ( Russia trying invade a part of Iran but is defeated )
1830 : France in Algeria.
1839 : U.K. occupies Aden ( Yemen )
1839 : U.K. Invades Kabul an Khandhar ( Afghanistan ).
1848 : Spain invades Jaafarines Islands ( Maroco )
1856 U.K. occupy Perim ( Yemen )
1859-1860 : Spain starts Tetouan war against Maroco.
1881 : France imposes protectorate to Tunisa
1882 : U.K. in Egypt
1890 : Italia in Erythrea
1904 : Tangier's coup by Germany to insure influence of Germany in Maroco.
1912 : Italy gets Lybia.
1912 : France in Maroco
1920 : France in Syria and Lebanon
1920 : England in Iraq and Palestine
1935 : Italy invades Ethiopia.
1941 : USSR + U.K. invade Iran
1953 : U.S. + U.K. replace Iranian prime minister Mossadegh ( operation Ajax ).
....

Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).

your first date was 1511, when did ottomoan expansion end?

ah what about the defence of venice in 1683 in which the ottoman empire was defeated on september 11, halting the end of muslim expansion

[9mmRifle]

Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).

Are you Muslim or something ? Most of that were offshoots of the large European Empires - ie the decline of the French Empire and British Empire, its what Europe's big powers did in the day, they conquered, sailed the seas to explore and conquered some more. These Empires are long dead and I don't see the Polish invading Egypt, I don't see the Irish occupying Mecca, I don't see the Canadians invading Kuwait...to label the entire West as an aggressor against Islam stinks of BS propaganda. BTW the population of Ceuta was of Spanish origin, it has a Roman and Visigoth history not a Muslim one. Italy was imperialist and fascist back in the day but was defeated in WW2 and gave up all of their overseas territory. I could easily write up a far more convincing time line of Arabs determined to spread Islam by the sword, Arabs crossing into Egypt, Iranians fighting against Ottoman turks etc which would make Arabs and Persians look like imperialist aggressors waging their own crusade against the East and West and a religious crusade against their own people.


is there anyone good in history who can create such a list of muslim incursions into christian/and other religions (hindu?buddhists?) world?



Sounds like a good idea, lets see how 'Peace Loving' that religion really has been over the years. However I don't think the revisionist Muslims would have any of it, according to some of them the holocaust never happened.

[Bitogno]

your first date was 1511, when did ottomoan expansion end?

ah what about the defence of venice in 1683 in which the ottoman empire was defeated on september 11, halting the end of muslim expansion
I don't think that Indonesia was part of the Ottoman empire but as the biggest muslim country on earth, I put it.
About September 1683 you mean Vienna no ?

[Ordie]

is there anyone good in history who can create such a list of muslim incursions into christian/and other religions (hindu?buddhists?) world?

I can start with Otoman/turkish invasions to Europe which last for centuries and claim whole Balkan and large parts of central Europe... i thing the turks were even besieging Vienna...

The Turks converted the Hagia Sophia into a Mosque (Now a secular Museum) and the Spanish converted the Cordoba Mosque into a Roman Catholic Cathedral.

I guess one could call even.

[Bitogno]

Are you Muslim or something ?
Reminding people history makes me muslim ? :roll:


Most of that were offshoots of the large European Empires - ie the decline of the French Empire and British Empire, its what Europe's big powers did in the day, they conquered, sailed the seas to explore and conquered some more. These Empires are long dead and I don't see the Polish invading Egypt, I don't see the Irish occupying Mecca, I don't see the Canadians invading Kuwait...to label the entire West as an aggressor against Islam stinks of BS propaganda.
I can see some of them in Iraq.


BTW the population of Ceuta was of Spanish origin, it has a Roman and Visigoth history not a Muslim one.
This one the best ....rofl
You should open an history book, and look at the dates.


Italy was imperialist and fascist back in the day but was defeated in WW2 and gave up all of their overseas territory.
In 1890 Italy fascist .... rofl


I could easily write up a far more convincing time line of Arabs determined to spread Islam by the sword, Arabs crossing into Egypt, Iranians fighting against Ottoman turks etc which would make Arabs and Persians look like imperialist aggressors waging their own crusade against the East and West and a religious crusade against their own people.

Be my guest.

[pgm]

[quote=Bitogno;2832413]1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641
1798 : Napoleon in Egypt.
1804-1813 : War between Russia and Iran ( Russia trying invade a part of Iran but is defeated )
1830 : France in Algeria.
1839 : U.K. occupies Aden ( Yemen )
1839 : U.K. Invades Kabul an Khandhar ( Afghanistan ).
1848 : Spain invades Jaafarines Islands ( Maroco )
1856 U.K. occupy Perim ( Yemen )
1859-1860 : Spain starts Tetouan war against Maroco.
1881 : France imposes protectorate to Tunisa
1882 : U.K. in Egypt
1890 : Italia in Erythrea
1904 : Tangier's coup by Germany to insure influence of Germany in Maroco.
1912 : Italy gets Lybia.
1912 : France in Maroco
1920 : France in Syria and Lebanon
1920 : England in Iraq and Palestine
1935 : Italy invades Ethiopia.
1941 : USSR + U.K. invade Iran
1953 : U.S. + U.K. replace Iranian prime minister Mossadegh ( operation Ajax ).

You should remember that in the same 400 years time-frame muslims invaded Europe (Ottomans "invaded" Austria in 1683): so, who played the "invasion game" most?
But jokes apart, this botched list is a typical example of (intentional?) misinterpretation of historical facts. First of all, most of these so-called "invasions of muslim countries" were acts of war against empires and kingdoms (Ottoman empire, Persian empire, etc.) which - sure - were islamic, but in many cases had occupied or invaded other countries in their turn. So, these were struggles between powers (islamic or not) like any other in history.
Secondly, if with the term "invasion" you mean every act of war on any part of the opponent's soil or any temporary manu militaris occupation, you'll have to say that in WW2 Japan "invaded" the USA (Aleutian Islands) and some years ago Argentina "invaded" the UK (Falklands War, 1982). If you argue that in the course of the last four centuries there had been wars and invasions, well, I'm afraid to say that it's history baby. In the course of the last 2000 years everybody invaded everybody else at times. But none of these episodes can be considered as a deliberate act against "muslim countries" as such: in the XVII century Great Britain invaded India (mostly a hindu country); in the XIX century France invaded most of Europe (not a muslim country - not yet at least); and in the XX century Germany invaded most of Europe too. So what? Should Anglican inhabitants of Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey conduct a jihad against Protestant Germany and make themselves explode in the centre of Berlin because during ww2 they were "invaded" by Germans?

All this just to say that there's nothing in four centuries of history to justify modern islamic radicalism/terrorism, and that the fault of that distorted culture is on islam itself.


Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).
It's also somewhat strange to include Russia as a "Western" country, which is not in geographical, cultural, political, and not even in religious terms. Again, too much confusion I'm afraid.

[9mmRifle]

I can see some of them in Iraq.


You think 'Iraq' is part of his on-going 'Crusades' conspiracy ? The more I read from you the more you sound like a religious zealot




You should open an history book, and look at the dates.



Roman people and Visigoths were around long before Aminah popped out Muhammad



In 1890 Italy fascist ....



Italy was an imperialist monarchy thanks to the efforts of Italian kings and fascism, fascists took power in the 20s dictator Benito Mussolini desires some new overseas Empire in Ethiopia, they were beaten and Italy gave up its Empires. Iran in the 30s had pro-Nazi followers so most of the civilized world think it was liberated during WW2 rather than conquered ala your Crusade conspiracy.I don't have the free time to chat and write up timeliness on the history of of Islamic aggression but I'm sure there are plenty of websites out there that document the spread of Islam by the sword, invasions of the west, a religious crusade against their own people, aggression in the far east etc.

[Bitogno]

[quote]
You should remember that in the same 400 years time-frame muslims invaded Europe (Ottomans "invaded" Austria in 1683): so, who played the "invasion game" most?
But jokes apart, this botched list is a typical example of (intentional?) misinterpretation of historical facts. First of all, most of these so-called "invasions of muslim countries" were acts of war against empires and kingdoms (Ottoman empire, Persian empire, etc.) which - sure - were islamic, but in many cases had occupied or invaded other countries in their turn. So, these were struggles between powers (islamic or not) like any other in history.

You are contradicting yourself in these two paragraphs, don't say muslim invaded europe to just say that when we invaded them It wasn't invasion of muslims countries.



Secondly, if with the term "invasion" you mean every act of war on any part of the opponent's soil or any temporary manu militaris occupation, you'll have to say that in WW2 Japan "invaded" the USA (Aleutian Islands) and some years ago Argentina "invaded" the UK (Falklands War, 1982). If you argue that in the course of the last four centuries there had been wars and invasions, well, I'm afraid to say that it's history baby. In the course of the last 2000 years everybody invaded everybody else at times. But none of these episodes can be considered as a deliberate act against "muslim countries" as such: in the XVII century Great Britain invaded India (mostly a hindu country); in the XIX century France invaded most of Europe (not a muslim country - not yet at least); and in the XX century Germany invaded most of Europe too.
google "crusades"



So what? Should Anglican inhabitants of Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey conduct a jihad against Protestant Germany and make themselves explode in the centre of Berlin because during ww2 they were "invaded" by Germans?
All this just to say that there's nothing in four centuries of history to justify modern islamic radicalism/terrorism, and that the fault of that distorted culture is on islam itself.
I disagree we messed up with their countries all along no they revolt and since ideology such as marxism failed they use another.


It's also somewhat strange to include Russia as a "Western" country, which is not in geographical, cultural, political, and not even in religious terms. Again, too much confusion I'm afraid.
In geographical it is, in cultural too, and in political and religious too. The confusion is in your head.

[Bitogno]

You think 'Iraq' is part of his on-going 'Crusades' conspiracy ? The more I read from you the more you sound like a religious zealot
Why because I disagree with you ? And BTW the term Crusade was used by G. W. Bush himself to qualify the war on terror.



Roman people and Visigoths were around long before Aminah popped out Muhammad

Yes and before there was berberes that are still there.



Italy was an imperialist monarchy thanks to the efforts of Italian kings and fascism, fascists took power in the 20s dictator Benito Mussolini desires some new overseas Empire in Ethiopia, they were beaten and Italy gave up its Empires. Iran in the 30s had pro-Nazi followers so most of the civilized world think it was liberated during WW2 rather than conquered ala your Crusade conspiracy.I don't have the free time to chat and write up timeliness on the history of of Islamic aggression but I'm sure there are plenty of websites out there that document the spread of Islam by the sword, invasions of the west, a religious crusade against their own people, aggression in the far east etc.
You can also look at the websites that deal with christian aggressions too ( forced conversions in south america, inquisition etc ...), and if you use the word crusade remember it is a christian word.

[Heinemann]

In fact, it was safer to be a Jew in the Ottoman Empire than in Europe.

Yes as long as they paid the Jizya (penalty tax for being Jewish/non-Muslim) if they didnt pay this overwhelming tax they would have 2 choices, convert or be killed.

We dont need a documentary to prove Islam is inherently violent against non-Muslims just go buy a quran, and read it yourself. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

[Hollis]

I gather some here, have forgot what year it is, this is not the 1500s, 1800s, nor even the 1900's, the year is 2007. Playing with historical data back and forth may have some purpose, but our problems are today.

IMHO, Why should any body need to know about any other person's religion, Maybe Islam needs to be more tolerant and promote tolerance of others TODAY. A lot of Muslims are, a lot are not and they do deadly things to others.

We can say a lot of religions have aspects of intolerance, but acting in a violant way to others can not be ignored.

[Satellite Weapon]

there are some people who just think Islam is all about martyrs and evrything.

It's the religion of peace tm"

http://thefulcrum.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Mohammed_cartoon-719813.jpg

[Bitogno]

Yes as long as they paid the Jizya (penalty tax for being Jewish/non-Muslim) if they didnt pay this overwhelming tax they would have 2 choices, convert or be killed.

We dont need a documentary to prove Islam is inherently violent against non-Muslims just go buy a quran, and read it yourself. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.
Yes and you will discover that in the coran the people of the book ( christans and jews ) are accepted.

[Hollis]

Yes and you will discover that in the coran the people of the book ( christans and jews ) are accepted.


It is mixed, Also the Qur'an does not speak highly of Arabs. Problem with the Qur'an are the numerous contradictions. read Al Maedah 51 on.

[IraGlacialis]

For the whole invasion rant everybody is having, when you think about it, both Christianity and Islam spread by force. Islam spread directly by the sword to become the Caliphate. Chrisitianity a lot of times spread across the world by missionaries following the soldiers that conquered the "pagan heathens" (America anyone). Well, and of course there was the method that the Israelites took over Canaan (but that is something else entirely). So neither religion is innocent of charges. Pointing fingers about what happened back then just makes people unhappy and gets us nowhere.
Oh yeah, there is little denying Islamic world was pretty tolerant and advanced back then. However that was then, this is now.
If anything, the Islamic world has regressed to the state of the medieval Christian world (with a few exceptions), just with modern technology, and what is needed is an Islamic Age of Reason to shake the foundations of the institutions (which could only primarily come from within, and will most likely involve a lot of time, blood, and elbow grease).

[Bitogno]

For the whole invasion rant everybody is having, when you think about it, both Christianity and Islam spread by force. Islam spread directly by the sword to become the Caliphate. Chrisitianity a lot of times spread across the world by missionaries following the soldiers that conquered the "pagan heathens" (America anyone). Well, and of course there was the method that the Israelites took over Canaan (but that is something else entirely). So neither religion is innocent of charges. Pointing fingers about what happened back then just makes people unhappy and gets us nowhere.
Oh yeah, there is little denying Islamic world was pretty tolerant and advanced back then. However that was then, this is now.
If anything, the Islamic world has regressed to the state of the medieval Christian world (with a few exceptions), just with modern technology, and what is needed is an Islamic Age of Reason to shake the foundations of the institutions (which could only primarily come from within, and will most likely involve a lot of time, blood, and elbow grease).
I mostly agree with you, I just think that religions develop the same way. for a part muslims are wherre we were in 1400 AD ( in the middle of inquisition ). They are not regressing, they are at a different step of evolution.

[Lazy Lob]

For the whole invasion rant everybody is having, when you think about it, both Christianity and Islam spread by force. Islam spread directly by the sword to become the Caliphate. Chrisitianity a lot of times spread across the world by missionaries following the soldiers that conquered the "pagan heathens" (America anyone). Well, and of course there was the method that the Israelites took over Canaan (but that is something else entirely). So neither religion is innocent of charges. Pointing fingers about what happened back then just makes people unhappy and gets us nowhere.
Oh yeah, there is little denying Islamic world was pretty tolerant and advanced back then. However that was then, this is now.
If anything, the Islamic world has regressed to the state of the medieval Christian world (with a few exceptions), just with modern technology, and what is needed is an Islamic Age of Reason to shake the foundations of the institutions (which could only primarily come from within, and will most likely involve a lot of time, blood, and elbow grease).

;-) But this is where the myth starts. Christianity and Islam were radically different at inception. This is the primal point and a very fundamental one.

We have two “prophets” * Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammad of Zumzum. One was a Jew who preached love another grabbed a sword and sought to conquer by force, maybe even a plagiarist. The original message was very different.

One’s method was screwed the other’s was followed. Their flat-pack instructions were soooo different.

* Jesus was more than a prophet. To some he is the son of god to others he is god and forms part of the trinity. Islam rejects this and so rejects Christianity.

[CantGetRight]

I don't think that Indonesia was part of the Ottoman empire but as the biggest muslim country on earth, I put it.
About September 1683 you mean Vienna no ?

yes yes, sorry, typo,and ill get to work on that list of muslim aggressions

[11 Bravo]

I mostly agree with you, I just think that religions develop the same way. for a part muslims are wherre we were in 1400 AD ( in the middle of inquisition ). They are not regressing, they are at a different step of evolution.

Bito ; I have to disagree with you severely on your assumption here. It's quite plain to see Islam has regressed - this is not evolution it's devolution.
When Huge swaths of the muslim world are ruled by defacto dictators and/or religious nutcases you cannot justify any form of evolution here.
So many clerics so many "FATWAHS" , so much kill they neighbor and kill the infidel gibberish. Is this in any way reasonable , rational thought ?.

[Henry's Fork]

is there anyone good in history who can create such a list of muslim incursions into christian/and other religions (hindu?buddhists?) world?


1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641

How true you are. Indonesia was Buddhist and Hindu long before Islam was even invented.

[CantGetRight]

I gather some here, have forgot what year it is, this is not the 1500s, 1800s, nor even the 1900's, the year is 2007. Playing with historical data back and forth may have some purpose, but our problems are today.

IMHO, Why should any body need to know about any other person's religion, Maybe Islam needs to be more tolerant and promote tolerance of others TODAY. A lot of Muslims are, a lot are not and they do deadly things to others.

We can say a lot of religions have aspects of intolerance, but acting in a violant way to others can not be ignored.


ill agree with this comment, throwing dates around is pointless, look it up, the histories there

as i said, its an amazing production, thought provoking, and anyone who cares about the world around them, should see it

[pgm]

In fact only westerns call them "arabic" numerals, muslims call them Hindu numerals.

Yes, very kind of them. Ok: if you don't like this as an example of false attribution, I could remind you all the philosophic (expecially Aristotelic) and scientific (Euclides, Hippocrates, Ptolemy, etc.) works that Arabs just translated from ancient Greek originals. But in general terms the sad truth is that not only Arabs, but most of muslim word as such has ceased to give any contribution to world culture, art and literature since XVI century. The reason is quite simple, and religion-related: if you think ypu have the truth, you don't have to search any more; and if you think you have nothing less than the word of God (kalimath Allah, i.e. the Koran) any research or study, any difference of opinion, is not only futile, but blasphemous. There is no space for discussion, even less for dissent. It's quite a simple concept, but it seems to escape to many "Westernes" who are still convinced that islam is a religion like any other, or even like modern Christianity. It is not. It's time to understand that.

[tipsovr]

The reason is quite simple, and religion-related: if you think ypu have the truth, you don't have to search any more; and if you think you have nothing less than the word of God (kalimath Allah, i.e. the Koran) any research or study, any difference of opinion, is not only futile, but blasphemous. There is no space for discussion, even less for dissent. It's quite a simple concept, but it seems to escape to many "Westernes" who are still convinced that islam is a religion like any other, or even like modern Christianity. It is not. It's time to understand that.

The video the OP mentioned covered this point well. It really was eye opening for me. Never knew about the 9/11 correlation.

[pgm]

You are contradicting yourself in these two paragraphs, don't say muslim invaded europe to just say that when we invaded them It wasn't invasion of muslims countries.Nice to see that you think there is a contradiction, since I was using your own reasoning. Didn't you realize that? Really? Well, you must be even more confused than I thought...


google "crusades" Oh yes, It seems to me I heard something about that stuff... But the last episode of the Crusades was the fall of Acre in 1291. A bit oldie, don't you think? Weren't we talking about the last 400-500 years? Some more confusion here...
(By the way: I did't had to "google" - horrid neologism - to find "Crusades", I knew all by myself. And I can even write and read! That's quite astonishing to me.)


In geographical it is, in cultural too, and in political and religious too. The confusion is in your head.Russia is West:
Geographically? That damn atlas! It said Russia is much more Eastern!
Culturally? Just to say: serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861...
Politically? If only they had known during the Cold War...
Religiously? The Great Schism of 1054 in fact was only the Little Squabble.

But you are right: I am deeply confused. It always happens when I meet arrogance.

[pgm]

Yes and you will discover that in the coran the people of the book ( christans and jews ) are accepted.

Well, since I can read (and even write, really!), I would suggest you to look at sura 2,191-193, Ayat al-Sayf, where it talks about forced conversion of non-muslims.

[Ameen]

Well, since I can read (and even write, really!), I would suggest you to look at sura 2,191-193, Ayat al-Sayf, where it talks about forced conversion of non-muslims.

Read the whole Koran and then you can start pulling random quotes. You are able to throw your perpetrated knowledge of the Quran at people who do not know about it, but while you do so, you continue to show your lack of intelligence to the people who actually know about the Quran. I am not trying to defend anyone or any comments, but I am just pointing out that people should not even listen to your rubbish.

"There is no compulsion in religion (la ikraha fi d-dini)" al-Baqarah 2:256

[sp2c]

1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641
1798 : Napoleon in Egypt.
1804-1813 : War between Russia and Iran ( Russia trying invade a part of Iran but is defeated )
1830 : France in Algeria.
1839 : U.K. occupies Aden ( Yemen )
1839 : U.K. Invades Kabul an Khandhar ( Afghanistan ).
1848 : Spain invades Jaafarines Islands ( Maroco )
1856 U.K. occupy Perim ( Yemen )
1859-1860 : Spain starts Tetouan war against Maroco.
1881 : France imposes protectorate to Tunisa
1882 : U.K. in Egypt
1890 : Italia in Erythrea
1904 : Tangier's coup by Germany to insure influence of Germany in Maroco.
1912 : Italy gets Lybia.
1912 : France in Maroco
1920 : France in Syria and Lebanon
1920 : England in Iraq and Palestine
1935 : Italy invades Ethiopia.
1941 : USSR + U.K. invade Iran
1953 : U.S. + U.K. replace Iranian prime minister Mossadegh ( operation Ajax ).
....

Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).

conquest of Aceh between 1874 and 1904

[IraGlacialis]

I mostly agree with you, I just think that religions develop the same way. for a part muslims are wherre we were in 1400 AD ( in the middle of inquisition ). They are not regressing, they are at a different step of evolution.
Ooh... touche. :)
I have always called it growing pains.

[500]

And during the 300 or 400 last years we invaded their countries.
If they were not invaded they would be still in 13th century.



"There is no compulsion in religion (la ikraha fi d-dini)" al-Baqarah 2:256
There is no compulsion in religion, but pagans should be killed and Christians and Jews pay tribute and humiliated until they accept Islam.

[LaoSexMachine]

Islam: What the West Needs to Know

What about some of the "followers" need to know? I'm soooo effing tired of this "woe is me" shyt.

[Bitogno]

Russia is West:
Geographically? That damn atlas! It said Russia is much more Eastern!

Geographically Europe is delimited on the east side by the Oural.



Culturally? Just to say: serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861...

What an argument !!!
Russian as people are mostly slavs like poles.



Politically? If only they had known during the Cold War...

This one is good too.
Communism spread all over Europe between the two wars



Religiously? The Great Schism of 1054 in fact was only the Little Squabble.

Oh cool so greek are not european too ....



But you are right: I am deeply confused. It always happens when I meet arrogance.
I won't answer this one.

[Bitogno]

Bito ; I have to disagree with you severely on your assumption here. It's quite plain to see Islam has regressed - this is not evolution it's devolution.
When Huge swaths of the muslim world are ruled by defacto dictators and/or religious nutcases you cannot justify any form of evolution here.
So many clerics so many "FATWAHS" , so much kill they neighbor and kill the infidel gibberish. Is this in any way reasonable , rational thought ?.
I disagree, in the 14th ( where Islam is now ) century the christian world wasn't democratic at all, it was in the middle of the inquisition and the reconquista.
In addition there are not so many Fatwas asking to kill a neighbourg.

[Bitogno]

How true you are. Indonesia was Buddhist and Hindu long before Islam was even invented.
Muslims were in Indonesia since 13th century.

[CantGetRight]

Read the whole Koran and then you can start pulling random quotes. You are able to throw your perpetrated knowledge of the Quran at people who do not know about it, but while you do so, you continue to show your lack of intelligence to the people who actually know about the Quran. I am not trying to defend anyone or any comments, but I am just pointing out that people should not even listen to your rubbish.

"There is no compulsion in religion (la ikraha fi d-dini)" al-Baqarah 2:256


the koran also says something along the line of, kill the unbeliever wherever you may find them the "verse of the sword" i believe

and what is this rule in the koran of precedence, if something is stated at one point in the koran, it is gods word, but if its contradicted later, god just changed his mind, the later of the two statements happens to be the darker one, watch the video

[Ameen]

the koran also says something along the line of, kill the unbeliever wherever you may find them the "verse of the sword" i believe


That is the same verse that PGM was talking about. Read my previous post since it can refer to you too.

[LordTyphus]

1511 : Portuguese take Malaca ( Indonesia ). They will be replaced by Holland people in 1641
1798 : Napoleon in Egypt.
1804-1813 : War between Russia and Iran ( Russia trying invade a part of Iran but is defeated )
1830 : France in Algeria.
1839 : U.K. occupies Aden ( Yemen )
1839 : U.K. Invades Kabul an Khandhar ( Afghanistan ).
1848 : Spain invades Jaafarines Islands ( Maroco )
1856 U.K. occupy Perim ( Yemen )
1859-1860 : Spain starts Tetouan war against Maroco.
1881 : France imposes protectorate to Tunisa
1882 : U.K. in Egypt
1890 : Italia in Erythrea
1904 : Tangier's coup by Germany to insure influence of Germany in Maroco.
1912 : Italy gets Lybia.
1912 : France in Maroco
1920 : France in Syria and Lebanon
1920 : England in Iraq and Palestine
1935 : Italy invades Ethiopia.
1941 : USSR + U.K. invade Iran
1953 : U.S. + U.K. replace Iranian prime minister Mossadegh ( operation Ajax ).
....

Yes us : Westerners ( Russia, U.K. , France, U.S., Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal ).

That's not "us" but "you". You're not French. You're a Muslim with a French passport.

[sp2c]

wtf is that supposed to mean

[LordTyphus]

wtf is that supposed to mean

He'll understand, whomever he is.

[Freibier]

You're not French. You're a Muslim with a French passport.
dumbest statement I read all day

[LordTyphus]

dumbest statement I read all day

Care to explain?

This guy is fretting about Western imperialism; but why is he blind to Arab/muslim systematic conquest and destruction of other peoples and their cultures? Because he's one of them!

http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Israel%20Islam%20World%20Map%20Crop.gif

[Heinemann]

Yes and you will discover that in the coran the people of the book ( christans and jews ) are accepted.

Learn to read.

[Ordie]

Care to explain?

This guy is fretting about Western imperialism; but why is he blind to Arab/muslim systematic conquest and destruction of other peoples and their cultures? Because he's one of them!

http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Israel%20Islam%20World%20Map%20Crop.gif

This map is highly inaccurate.
Sri Lanka, Bali, Phillipines, Singapore, Armenia, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Ethiopia are neither Muslim nor Arab.

It does not take into account the substantial non Muslim populations in Lebanon, Syria, Eritrea and Nigeria.

[Kippari]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/juusoha/islamvswest.jpg

p-)p-)p-)p-)

[number nine]

Nice to see that you think there is a contradiction, since I was using your own reasoning. Didn't you realize that? Really? Well, you must be even more confused than I thought...

Oh yes, It seems to me I heard something about that stuff... But the last episode of the Crusades was the fall of Acre in 1291. A bit oldie, don't you think? Weren't we talking about the last 400-500 years? Some more confusion here...
(By the way: I did't had to "google" - horrid neologism - to find "Crusades", I knew all by myself. And I can even write and read! That's quite astonishing to me.)

Russia is West:
Geographically? That damn atlas! It said Russia is much more Eastern!
Culturally? Just to say: serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861...
Politically? If only they had known during the Cold War...
Religiously? The Great Schism of 1054 in fact was only the Little Squabble.

But you are right: I am deeply confused. It always happens when I meet arrogance.

Russia is west.
Culturally? Slavery was abolished in USA around the same time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)
Politically? There were no political differences between western and "eastern" counties like the Third Reich and Italy under Mussolini? And prior to that, during 19th century and WWI? Country can be well "western" even if not democratic at all.
Religiously? Does it take to be protestant, baptist or catholic to be "western"?

[pgm]

[quote=Bitogno;2833730]Geographically Europe is delimited on the east side by the Oural.

Supposing that with "Oural" you mean "Urals", I think it's the first time you say something right till now: so that means that just one fifth of Russia is geographically Europe. Oh, and if you don't believe me, try to search on google (pardon: "google" it).



What an argument !!!
Russian as people are mostly slavs like poles. My God: I'm afraid there is some serious linguistic problem here: I was talking about serfs (servi glebae in Latin, if you have any difficulty with English language), not ethnic groups (= Slavs).


What an argument !!!Always better than maintaining that islamic radicalism, terrorism, and all the other nice things of islam in 2007 are justified because Portuguese occupied (sorry, "invaded") Malaca in 1511.


I won't answer this one.Because you can't, mon ami.

[number nine]

My God: I'm afraid there is some serious linguistic problem here: I was talking about serfs (servi glebae in Latin, if you have any difficulty with English language), not ethnic groups (= Slavs).

And I will talk about slavery in USA during the same period. Seems as bad argument as yours buddy, but no worse at all.

Ah, because server is not busy at this moment, I will add, serfdom was abolished in Austria-Hungary in 1918., or more accurately, not at all, in Bosnia-Herzegovina which came under Austro-Hungarian rule in 1878.

[pgm]

And I will talk about slavery in USA during the same period. Seems as bad argument as yours buddy, but no worse at all.

I'm quite afraid there are some historical misunderstandings here. "Serfdom" is a feudal institution which has little to do with slavery (which is certainly a repugnant institution, but is something different). Anyway there is an analogy between serfdom and slavery: it's a historical fact that US states which had slaves were socially and economically much more backword than other US states without slavery. In fact, it's quite hard to imagine that USA could become a world power if it had remained a slave country. Which confirms that both slavery and serfdom are forms of cultural, social and economical backwardness. And, to sum it up, any form of serfdom and/or slavery in the second half of XIX century made a strong difference with most of "European" or "Western" countries.

By the way: just to say something more about Arabs and muslims, Saudi Arabia abolished slavery only in 1962. Yes, 1962, not 1862.

[pgm]

And I will talk about slavery in USA during the same period. Seems as bad argument as yours buddy, but no worse at all.

[QUOTE] Ah, because server is not busy at this moment, I will add, serfdom was abolished in Austria-Hungary in 1918., or more accurately, not at all, in Bosnia-Herzegovina which came under Austro-Hungarian rule in 1878.

And because it's not busy even now, I'm afraid to say you are not correct: serfdom in Austria was abolished in 1781.

[pgm]

[quote=number nine;2834531]Russia is west.
Culturally? Slavery was abolished in USA around the same time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

Please, don't make me to explain once again the difference between serfdom and slavery. Buy a good history book: it will do, I'm sure.


Politically? There were no political differences between western and "eastern" counties like the Third Reich and Italy under Mussolini?


You are right when you say that tirannies are always similar: Nazism, Fascism, Islamo-fascism... In fact, they are not acceptable nor excusable. And everybody who tries to excuse them is an accomplice.


Religiously? Does it take to be protestant, baptist or catholic to be "western"?

No: it's sufficient not to try to be a kamikaze to reach the 72 virgins.

[number nine]

And I will talk about slavery in USA during the same period. Seems as bad argument as yours buddy, but no worse at all.



And because it's not busy even now, I'm afraid to say you are not correct: serfdom in Austria was abolished in 1781.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

I'm quite correct.

And I don't see that much difference between serfdom and slavery.There were little practical differences.

And further, your insinuation is clear and makes me sick.

And last I need is lecture in history from somebody who is obviously wrong (click on Wikipedia link above, and scroll down. Indeed serfdom was not abolished in Bosnia-Herzegovina until the end of WWI. It became Austro-Hungarian territory in 1878. and was annexed in 1910. Not even in Hungary serfdom was abolished before 1848.)

[budgie]

Islam pretty much gave up its military expansionism over 600 years ago. The Ottoman Turks were muslims but pretty secular. Since them there hasn't been any Muslim power successful enough to force its will. As long as the most advanced military countries remain huge powers like the US, Russia, China and to a lesser extent, Europe, the muslims are not going to achieve many forced conversions. The few that even espouse it seem more interested in wanton chaos.

[Qatada1]

Any Jew can make a movie dipicting Christians through barbarity for example the inquisition in spain.

A Muslims Can talk about The Crusaders when they slayed and massacred thousands of Muslims in 1099

It's pretty easy to bring about faults of a religion by look,ing at there followers. But no follower speaks for the religion as many followers of a belief might no be a good example. Like Osama Bin laden for Islam. Some pictures people find of extremiest in islam is simply their retaliation of western attacks on Muslim lands. A Jew has the right to defend his land. A Palestinian Can defend his land. A American can defend his land, we all have the right to take any means possible to defend our land and our people. The Muslims seem to be angry because the government is pro western while there fellow man is attacked in Iraq.

[Ordie]

Any Jew can make a movie dipicting Christians through barbarity for example the inquisition in spain.

A Muslims Can talk about The Crusaders when they slayed and massacred thousands of Muslims in 1099.

Hulagu Khan, (Grandson of Genghis Kan) did more long term damage to Arab Muslim civilization than any of the previous Crusades.

After the Battle of Bagdad in 1258, no Arab civilization was able to recover. The Arabs since that period were dominated by non-Arabs, the Turks (Sejuk, Ottomans) and Europeans.

[Heinemann]

It's pretty easy to bring about faults of a religion by look,ing at there followers. But no follower speaks for the religion as many followers of a belief might no be a good example. Like Osama Bin laden for Islam. Some pictures people find of extremiest in islam is simply their retaliation of western attacks on Muslim lands. A Jew has the right to defend his land. A Palestinian Can defend his land. A American can defend his land, we all have the right to take any means possible to defend our land and our people. The Muslims seem to be angry because the government is pro western while there fellow man is attacked in Iraq.


I dont give a damn what Osama bin Laden does, I dont judge Islam on his actions. Instead I read the Quran and sunnah of Muhammad to make my judgment and from what I've read people like Osama are following Islam down to the letter. Please tell me otherwise, because I can not find one single peaceful aya in the Quran that has not been abrogated by later violent ayas.

[sct1886]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qatada1 View Post

It's pretty easy to bring about faults of a religion by look,ing at there followers. But no follower speaks for the religion as many followers of a belief might no be a good example. Like Osama Bin laden for Islam. Some pictures people find of extremiest in islam is simply their retaliation of western attacks on Muslim lands. A Jew has the right to defend his land. A Palestinian Can defend his land. A American can defend his land, we all have the right to take any means possible to defend our land and our people. The Muslims seem to be angry because the government is pro western while there fellow man is attacked in Iraq.



I dont give a damn what Osama bin Laden does, I dont judge Islam on his actions. Instead I read the Quran and sunnah of Muhammad to make my judgment and from what I've read people like Osama are following Islam down to the letter. Please tell me otherwise, because I can not find one single peaceful aya in the Quran that has not been abrogated by later violent ayas.

Any person, organization or religion can easily be judged by the past and or present actions and just as importantly written doctrine. Islam spells out exactly the intent and violent means to achieve those goals. Only a fool would see this POS religion as peaceful.

[Ddavid]

Islamism versus Globalisation, a fight to death against two mortal plagues.

On your screens on XXI century 1st.

[Bitogno]

Supposing that with "Oural" you mean "Urals", I think it's the first time you say something right till now: so that means that just one fifth of Russia is geographically Europe. Oh, and if you don't believe me, try to search on google (pardon: "google" it).

I know it represents 25% of russia but 75% of the population that' why I put russia on the european side. But if you want you can say that it is an asian one.



My God: I'm afraid there is some serious linguistic problem here: I was talking about serfs (servi glebae in Latin, if you have any difficulty with English language), not ethnic groups (= Slavs).

That was a so bad argument :


Culturally? Just to say: serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861...

Serfdom is slavery, and it was really abolished in 1833 for UK ( abolition bill ) and 18665 for US ( 13th amendment ).
On a true culturally point russian are slavs such as Poles, Serbs, Slovaks and so on.



Always better than maintaining that islamic radicalism, terrorism, and all the other nice things of islam in 2007 are justified because Portuguese occupied (sorry, "invaded") Malaca in 1511.

I just reminded that we did that. But I could continue with what we did in middle-east from WW2 up to now.



Because you can't, mon ami.
I can but I won't.